151: How to Really Implement Change. Different Leadership Styles. Balancing Discipline. Different Jiu Jitsu Styles.

0:00:00 - Opening. The decisions we make matter. 0:20:13 - Is it better to work a mindless job and make good money? Or a fulfilling job for less money? 0:32:15 - How to establish and implement Standard operating procedures. 0:35:20 - Balancing THE GRIND and LIFE. 0:47:28 - Too much discipline. Is that possible? How? 0:56:15 - What's the best Jiu Jitsu Style/Game? 1:02:34 - Different Leadership styles. Effective and ineffective. 1:13:37 - Making the most of life after massive failure or mistakes. 1:19:48 - How to get the team "on board" when they are massively resistant and defensive. 1:26:58 - How to actually implement change when you know it is needed. 1:30:26 - Mikey and the Dragons book. 1:36:05 - How to stay on the PATH. 2:06:21 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 151 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  And

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  we haven't done a Q and A for a while and we're going to roll into a Q and A and normally

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  quite frankly, normally the Q and As when we show up for the Q and As, there's a little bit of a different atmosphere, we'll say, right?

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:27Jocko Willink?

  A little bit of levity in the room, everything's like, you know, hey, we're not going to talk about war. We're not going to be reading about men being wounded or killed. We're not going to be reading about some atrocity and hearing what people go through. We're going to be answering questions and there's there's a little bit more just lightheartedness to the whole thing usually. Sometimes it goes a little bit, you know, one way or the other, but this is, there's just a little bit of a different situation in the recording room right now because we just did a, and this is kind of surprising because we just did a Warrior Kid Podcast and in the Warrior Kid Podcast, I answer questions from kids for Uncle Jake and those are all, you know, kind of just little neat little kid questions.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  Hey, are cheeseburgers good for you? And what do I do when I'm nervous at a jujitsu tournament? And what do I do when I can't remember how to spell Mississippi? You know, just like these nice little kid questions and they're fun. And yet, you know, I treat them seriously because kids have serious questions and when you're a little kid, those are real problems. Those aren't, we laugh at them now. You're laughing at them.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  No, well, the Mississippi one.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  Right. You're laughing at the kids' issues. But then what I started doing a little while ago is I started telling these stories from the perspective of Uncle Jake when Uncle Jake was a kid. And some of those are a little bit more, they're a little bit more serious, but there's always a very big lesson to be learned because my goal with the stories from Uncle Jake is that.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  Kids can end up understanding how Uncle Jake kind of formulated his values as a man. And we've talked about a bunch of different ones of those. Uh, but anyways, the one that I did today and, and what's interesting is all these stories are kind of based on they're, they're based loosely around, around things that I've experienced. And this is very, some of them very loosely, some of them not so loose. On things that I've actually experienced, things that I went through. Cause I'm not Uncle Jake, but

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  I have some similar experiences that Uncle Jake has had along the way. And anyways, today I wanted to make the point to kids that the decisions that they make in their life are, they have a big impact, right? And if you make little decisions when you're a kid, you start making bad decisions when you're a little kid, those bad decisions eventually add up. And if you make good decisions, those decisions will add up and you'll, in the one case you'll end up with good things. If you make good decisions, if you make bad decisions, you'll end up in a bad situation. And I told this story from Uncle Jake's perspective about Uncle Jake's best friend when he was growing up. And it was a kid named Jeff and they were best friends. They did everything together and they, they played and they did practical jokes and they laughed and had a great time.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  And eventually Jeff starts making some bad decisions. He gets in trouble in class and he gets in more trouble. Then he gets suspended from recess and just, and then the next thing you know, he starts

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  really going down a bad path and starts using drugs and alcohol. And eventually, and again, I, this is a long, this is not a long story, but it probably takes about 10 minutes to tell on the podcast, on the Warrior Kid Podcast. And then eventually

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  I leave high school. We graduate from high school and I kind of talk about seeing him and, and this is what's true. Like, so this is true. So this is based on true story. I had a best friend when I was a kid. His name was Jeff. He was an awesome kid. He was funny and what? He's one of those kids, I've talked about this before, like, some kids, they have a little spark to them. And it's not a lot. It's very few kids. They have this little spark, they've got this little thing about them that you go, okay, that person has something. Now, that spark doesn't guarantee anything. In fact, that spark can be a problem because that spark can catch fire. And it can be an uncontrollable fire. Or it can be a fire that can be used to fuel and grow and create awesome things. And you don't really know, you certainly can't really control it.

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  That person has to have control of that spark. Well, Jeff was one of those kids that had like this spark to him. He was charismatic, he was funny, he was smart, he was witty, he was courageous. But he just, for whatever reason, had like a little spin to him that didn't mind getting in trouble. It's almost like an attitude like, hey, these guys can't hold me down.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  And so, you know, when we were in fifth grade, it was actually in fifth grade where we sat next to each other every day and we would start, you know, we would just hang out all the time and laugh. And eventually, he started getting in trouble. And I didn't, right? And I would get in some trouble, but he would cross the line. And he crossed the line to where all of a sudden, you know, he would get he'd sent to the principal's office and be that kind of trouble. One level above the kind of trouble I would get in, which is like, hey, get yelled at, you gotta be quiet, hey, you know, you go sit in the corner, those things I got. But I didn't cross the line, which is, hey, I'm not, I'm out of control in the class. I'm so disruptive that you gotta get me out of class. I never crossed that line. He started crossing that line.

• 5:27Jocko Willink?

  And eventually, you know, like, and I told him the story, you know, he started using drugs and alcohol. And I thought about it, do I want to put, talk about drugs and alcohol in the Warrior Kid Podcast? And then I thought to myself, yes, I do. Because if you don't think kids hear about drugs and alcohol right now, when they're seven years old, eight years old, nine years old, you're wrong. Drugs are out there. It's a different world. And you might as well tell them when they're young that these things are problematic. Well, with Jeff, you know, Jeff went down the path of starting to, you know, smoke and drink and, and all that stuff, doing drugs. And I didn't. I, you know, he started getting into that kind of thing. I started getting into like hardcore music and being like disciplined and all that stuff, which

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  again, I call it what you want, call it a trend, call it me conforming to something or whatever you want to call it, but that's what I did, that's what I got into. I related to it, let me put it to you that way. So eventually Jeff becomes like a burnout, you know what I mean? He he becomes um yeah, like a burnout, you know, he's cut classes and he, you know, just kind of went down that spiral. And the weird thing is, we were such good friends when we were kids that we didn't not like each other anymore. You know, I didn't like have a falling out with him. We just, we just went our separate ways. And so when I would see him in school, or I'd see him in the hallway, or I'd see him in town.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, we would talk and you could see, I could see in his eyes, like in his eyes, like he knew he was going in the wrong direction. And we would still laugh and we would still have a good time. We would joke about things and then we'd, we'd walk away from each other and he'd keep, kept going down the path he was going down. And I kept going down the path I was going on. And as time went by, you know, he just was a complete burnout. I don't even remember if he graduated high school or not. I graduated high school and I joined the Navy. And, you know, I was gonna go try and be a SEAL. That was my big, big goal, right? And he was gonna do whatever he was gonna do.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  And the last time I saw him, again, like I remember I saw him and it was like in my mind and I wasn't quite mature enough to really recognize what I, what I saw, like at the time. But as I look back on it, it was like, there was like this element of sadness for him. Seeing that I was going, I was like, for lack of a better word, like getting away, right? I was gonna go, I was gonna go and do something, right? And he was gonna not. And you could see that. And at this point, like, I don't even know if he could have gotten in the military. He'd been in quite a bit of trouble and had used a lot of drugs. And I don't even know if he could have gotten in the military at this point.

• 8:09Jocko Willink?

  So, and, and, but when we were little kids, mind you, we were running around playing BB gun wars and, you know, setting up forts and running around in camouflage outfits, you know, that's what we were doing. So it's like I was going to do that for real and he was gonna keep doing what he was doing, which was not good stuff. And so when I saw him for the, for the last time, you know, like we shook hands. And again, like I could see in his eyes, this, this element of sadness that.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  He was doing what he, his life had gone in this direction and my life had gone in this other direction and he was, I don't even want to use the term jealous because I don't think he was jealous. He wasn't jealous at all. He, he was absolutely, he was actually like, kind of proud. You could see in his eyes like, man, that's awesome. And he said like, good luck, you know, and we shook hands and, and bro hugged and then I, then I just, you know, I left, I joined the Navy and went to boot camp and, and I remember I was in SEAL training and I was probably a month or two into SEAL training and I talked to my mom and um, she told me that, that this guy, this guy Jeff, who'd been my best friend from probably first grade through like fifth grade and then uh, like I said, it separated,

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  but he killed himself and 19 years old, killed himself. And, and so in the, in the story that Uncle Jake tells, I don't tell that, I don't talk about suicide, um, but I just say that he, he died and he died from drugs and alcohol, which indirectly is true. Um, you know, that's what killed him is that he was doing drugs and drinking and he wasn't making clear decisions and went down that path of, of depression and, and ended up killing himself and, and I remember going, you know, I was going through SEAL training, so I was, you know, definitely shocked and, and saddened by it and I had to do work and it was one of those things, but as I looked back on it, like,

• 10:03Jocko Willink?

  these are just little tiny decisions. Like I made a decision, he made a decision. I made a decision, he made a decision. I made a, a positive decision about something, he made a negative decision. I made a good decision, he made a bad decision. These aren't huge decisions that I'm talking about.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:17Jocko Willink?

  But it was these little tiny decisions that added up over time. And I think a lot of times, kids, they don't recognize that. They don't recognize that these little, I mean, sure, if you make a one big bad decision, you go drinking and driving, yep, you're right. You can, you can kill yourself, you can kill someone else, you can ruin your whole life in one bad decision.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  But where did that one bad decision came from? It came from a bunch of bad decisions. It came from hanging around with the bad people. It came with starting to drink in the first place. It came with even having the attitude that I can get away with stuff. Like there's a lot of little bad decisions that led up to this one bad, big bad decision that actually ends up putting you in a bad way. So that's the story that I just told on.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  The Warrior Kid Podcast. And again, I know it's kind of a heavy story. In fact, it's a very heavy story. And that's another thing with, like, as I said to myself, well, should I talk about, should I say that he ended up in jail? Or something like that? And I said to myself, no. Like, this is the reality of life. And if kids are not taught the reality of life, again, I'm not trying to smack them in the face with it. I'm not trying to make them paranoid, you know? And that's kind of why I thought the suicide part was a step too far.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, it's like in Mikey and the Dragons, I talk about how there's dragons that are ready to kill.

• 11:40Jocko Willink?

  And luckily, you know, I'm publishing, I own the publishing company that's making this book because a lot of my editors probably wouldn't like to hear that. A normal children's editor doesn't want to hear killing, right? And also in the book, the king dies, right? The king is dead. And he's, there's a funeral for him. And that's another thing, like, well, do you really want to talk about that with little kids? And as I asked myself that question for the first time, I answered it in like a millisecond with, there's kids out there whose dad dies when they're five years old, whose mom dies when they're seven years old, whose grandma dies, whose dog dies. Like, death is part of life.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  And to pretend that it doesn't exist and hope that your kids are just gonna one day figure it out, that's not the right thing to do. They should understand it. And so the last part about this thing about Jeff was, you know, again, he had this spark, he was funny, and he was just a really good, awesome guy. And when I got done, you know what I did? I did like the typical, whatever, 11 o'clock at night, sitting at the computer thing when I got done writing this thing, and I just Googled him. I just Googled him and just Googled his name, his full name, and...

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  It was the weirdest thing, cuz when I Googled him, there was nothing.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  There was nothing. No, nothing. Not a na- you couldn't- his name, no obituary, no nothing, just nothing. And that kind of shook me up a little bit. And the way it shakes me up is, it shakes me up in the fact that

• 13:28Jocko Willink?

  that guy had more intelligence than me. He had more talent than me. He was more charismatic than me. He had all these things that were better than me. And yet, Google, which I don't know if you ever Google, like, cuz I Google a lot of stuff all the time cuz I, I Google, you know, people that were in the military. I Google, uh, old authors, poets, um, people that wrote some random, like, I'll, I'll find online some letter from some Lance Corporal in World War II. I'll Google that person. And guess what? That person will, there'll be article about him. There'll be, there'll be his obituary about what he did with his life.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's what about his wife, and then his wife died in nineteen, you know, sixty-eight, and she had done, and so you can get so much information about just, oh, anyone. Anyone. And so I Google my friend Jeff, and there's nothing. Nothing. And that's a person that Jeff, had he gone down the right path, he would have left a giant mark on the world and would have done a lot of positive things and done beautiful things in the world. And to think that it's all gone and it's all lost, it's lost, and there's not a damn thing about him. So, teach your kids to make the right decisions is what I'm saying.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Jocko Willink?

  So, so much for the, uh, like I said, so much for the levity

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  of the, of the situation or of the podcast.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Crazy how like, you know, obviously I didn't know Jeff, but like how you say, you're talking earlier how, you know, if you would have made maybe even three, three good decisions, you know, because like these problems like drugs and alcohol and stuff like that as an individual problem, that's not the maker or the breaker right there. It's like everything put together, you know? There's people who are successful that may struggle with drugs and alcohol even for a little bit, for a long time, ongoing, like, you know,

• 15:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  You don't have to die, you know, if you make the decision to do the mistake in my opinion, but to do drugs and drink alcohol, you know, or have that kind of hold you back or whatever, you don't have to die from that. It's like everything, you know? And he could have been potentially like massively successful, you know? Just because of decisions.

• 15:56Jocko Willink?

  That's the horrible thing about it is you just see the waste of human potential. I guess that to me is the horrible thing and, and I got these great memories. Like I got him right now. I can remember doing things with him and, and when you're with someone like that and you're almost like a spectator to their life, like you get to watch him. You get to go like, wow, look at what he's doing. This is crazy. Wow. Look at that. Look how funny he is. You get to be a spectator and you appreciate it. I did. I appreciated it. And right now I look back and I think about how funny and, and you know, I think about any random, you know, stand-up comedian or someone on a

• 16:38Jocko Willink?

  Saturday Night Live or something like that. And it's like, yeah, I know, he would have been awesome on that show. He would have been hilarious on that show, but never gonna happen. It's not, doesn't exist. And yeah, so, so those little decisions that people make and that kids make especially. You know what's weird too is when you're 19 years old, think about, think about how much you thought you knew when you were 19 and how much you actually know, knew when you were 19. It's, it's, it's a pathetic, it's, it's, you know so little when you're 19. You know so little when you're 19.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Man, I feel like you kinda know it well. I don't know, people are different, but man, even twenty-nine.

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  I feel like I didn't really know.

• 17:25Jocko Willink?

  No, I, I, every five years that you look back, you realize that you didn't know anything five years ago.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:32Jocko Willink?

  And maybe someone will chime in and tell me that when you're seventy-two, you feel, you feel pretty good about what you know, but I don't think so. I don't think so.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  I think it's just always constantly looking back five years and think to yourself. And you know what I've said before, it's like, I think when you get to be at some point, it's some, some decade along there, thirty-five, forty, you at least say, "I know, I don't know everything." And that is like the beginning of

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  knowing something. Cause when you're, like, like you said, when you're nineteen, you know, you think you know everything. When you're twenty-three, you think you know everything. When you're twenty-six, you think you know everything. When you're thirty-one, you still think you know everything.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:10Jocko Willink?

  It's not until you actually look up, maybe that's thirty-five, maybe that's thirty-seven, maybe some people get it younger, where they realize, you know what, I don't know everything and I need to learn more.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Speaking of learning more.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Q and A.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  The people have some questions. Let's see if Jaco

• 18:32Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  has the answers.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't necessarily have the answers.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  The E.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  No, but I have, I, I will be able to give my assessment.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:42Jocko Willink?

  I will say this, and I just got done telling Pete this.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Yesterday, and I probably have told you this before. If I ever tell you I know something a hundred percent,

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  then it's factually true. But I do that so rarely, it's very rare that I say, "Hey, here's the, here's the answer." I probably do that, I do that very, very seldomly. If you hear me say that. Go with it.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Go with it.

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  It's correct. You won't barely hear me. You probably, you may have never heard me say that up until this point.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Not that I can remember, no.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  I, I very rarely will say, hey, look, I know this a hundred percent. I used to say it once every, maybe twice every six months. Like when I was in the SEAL teams, I would, every once in a while, I'd have to say, listen, man, I'm telling you, this is how you want to do this. You, you, this is how you should do this. I'm telling you, do it this way. Very seldom. Most of the time I'd say, look, this is what I think you should do, but it's your decision. You can do what you want.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Alright, well.

• 19:45Jocko Willink?

  So I will give my assessment. I'll give my best possible. And the other thing is, these questions are, there's not a lot of detail to them often. Or there's a ton of detail, but even a ton of detail isn't like, like, let me talk, oh, you got a problem with your boss? I need to meet your boss. I need to talk to him. You interact with him every day. I don't.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:02Jocko Willink?

  So you need to kind of, you need to kind of modulate and, and hone the answers to your particular scenario.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what do you think about this particular scenario, Jocko? Is it better to work at a mindless job and make money? Or is it better to follow your passion and possibly make less money?

• 20:25Jocko Willink?

  I, I definitely think the best thing to do is work at a job that you're passionate about and make a lot of money. That's, that's the best thing to do. I do know that one. Uh, that's not always possible. And, and here's something you gotta be careful of. If you've ever heard people talk about making your hobby, your job, right? And generally that's like, oh, I, if I make my hobby my job, then I'll enjoy my job, right? There's another way of looking at it. If you make your hobby your job, you won't like your hobby anymore.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Jocko Willink?

  That's another way of looking at that. So it depends on what kind of, like a jujitsu instructor. Right? Hey, I'll just open my own school and then I'll just, I'll just get to do what I love all day long. You talk to a lot of jujitsu instructors after six years. They don't even like going to the academy. They don't want to go to the academy anymore because it's all is, ah, ah, yeah. I don't want to teach one another white belt how to do an arm lock. They're over it. So it's not necessarily the best thing to make what you're passionate about. And there's some people that teach Jiu Jitsu every single day and they love it and that's awesome. And so they've, they've won, right? Cause they're making money, they're doing, they have a good livelihood and they enjoy doing it.

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, but my, my goal would be to, to do something that I'm passionate about. At the same time, you gotta set yourself up so that you're not stuck without any money. Right? Cause passion doesn't pay the rent. I'll tell you a, an example of this. Greg Train. Sure. Years ago, Greg Train said to me, hey, here's my options. I can like, kinda scrape by, teach wrestling, teach some Jiu Jitsu and train to fight. Or I can, I got accepted into this program to be an X-ray technician.

• 22:16Jocko Willink?

  And he asked me, he's like, what do you, what do you think I should do? This was a long time ago. It's probably like 10 or 12 years ago, maybe even longer. Anyways, he asked me and I said, listen, how many hours a day do you wanna train?

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  And I said, how many hours a day can you train? And he's like, I don't know, maybe three or four hours a day. Okay. So if you wanna do this three or four hours a day, and you're not gonna make any money, what are you gonna do with the other, whatever, 20 hours a day?

• 22:45Jocko Willink?

  You could actually build a career and make real money doing the X-ray thing. And then you could still easily, cause you work eight hours a day. I was like, I was like Greg, I work 12 hours a day. I work 14 hours a day. I'm still here training. You can work an eight hour day and still train. And you can train four hours a day and you can be fine. And you'll have money. You won't have to worry about paying the rent. You won't have to, you'll be able to buy, you know, nice things. You'll have medical insurance, all those things. And he made the decision to go to X-ray school and he ended up doing great in Jiu Jitsu and doing great in fighting. And he ended up getting some injuries that were like, if he would have just been a fighter,

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  they would have been really problematic. Cause you know, he couldn't fight for a long time. He, so,

• 23:34Jocko Willink?

  that's the kinda, that's the kinda judgment call, right? You can make. Um, now what what this question is saying though is can you do something where you make a little bit less, but you're passionate about it? That's that's pretty easy call as far as I'm concerned. If you just make a little bit less, but you love doing it. Well, that's kind of a no brainer.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  Right? Isn't it? Now you gotta ask yourself, where does that put you in the future?

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  And then you gotta ask yourself, on the other side, is could you do this job that you don't really like? For long enough that you could make? A difference like you could do this job that you don't really like and all of a sudden you got a down payment for a house? And then you go buy a house. You see what I'm saying?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's not a bad movie, a bad move either. But you could also, this is where people trap themselves. They have the job that they don't like. They're making a little bit more money. And instead of investing towards? Getting out of that job and setting themselves up so where they can do something that they are passionate about. What they do is they? Expand their lifestyle.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  That's the big mistake. They expand their lifestyle. And all of a sudden, you know, they're making a hundred thousand dollars a year? At this job that they don't really like. The other job they were gonna get seventy five thousand dollars a year. And that that's not bad, right? I would probably go for the thing that I really like doing. If it's a difference of twenty five thousand dollars, that's kind of a no brainer to me. What does the person do? They say, okay. Well, I'll just stay in this job so I can make enough money to get a down payment on a house. And then what do they do? They buy a new car.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  They go out to dinner every night. They spend that extra twenty five thousand that they could be putting into saving up for down payment. They spend it on stuff that they don't need to end up with a hundred and ten thousand dollar lifestyle. While they're making a hundred thousand dollars a year and they actually go into debt and now they're further away from the job that they wanted.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:27Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  I guess the answer here is, and I've said this before, come up with an exit strategy? With contingencies if things go wrong? And then plan, save, prepare, and then execute.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Sounds like a good plan. Good take on it. That's what it sounds like. They, I found that when you make your hobby, your career, that a lot of times like when you have fantasies about doing your hobby as a career. Let's say I'm a photographer, right? That's a big one. That's a common one that I've heard. They'll be like, okay, cuz I like taking pictures. I like, you know, I don't know, maybe traveling or I don't know, whatever. Whatever I like taking pictures of, I like that kinda subject too. But, so a lot of things when you're, um, you know, a creative person or you're into, uh, let's say you make baskets, right? You make the awesome baskets, but to make it your career, a lot of the times it comes with like

• 26:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  fifty percent, if not a hundred percent additional chores and tasks by running that business.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, you like making baskets? Oh, yeah, cool. And what you end up doing is making thousands of the same baskets that they're gonna put their green with the Easter bunny in it. And that's what your job is to weave that basket over and over again. Everything that you're doing it for is now gone.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and guess what? You have to do it now.

• 26:47Jocko Willink?

  And you have to do it.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  You have to. Like, as a hobby, that's kinda, in my opinion, pretty much the, one of the two things that make a hobby so great. Is because it's fun to do and you can do it whenever you want. As long as you have the time, as long as you, you do it whenever you want. If you don't feel like doing it, you don't do it. Like, if you don't feel like golfing tomorrow, you.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Are you gonna go?

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  I don't feel like golfing tomorrow.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Are you gonna go?

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm not.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Oh, no, you know, yeah, of course not. You don't have to. But if you love making baskets and you don't feel like it, and you're like, hey, guess what? You gotta make a thousand of those. I know you don't feel like even making one. You gotta make a thousand now. Or make sure they're done or something. Then you're like, man, I used to love this thing. Now I don't really like it cuz all this pressure, which had nothing to do with my hobby, by the way. Nothing. Now it has everything to do with my hobby. Now you got, now I have people calling me saying, hey, where's my basket? Hey, I'm the basket maker. I say when the basket gets made kinda thing. That's gone. So, yeah, so you don't really like it. And so, yeah, you got the repetitiveness, the, the, the, like, we call it

• 27:43Jocko Willink?

  Lack of control.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Lack of control, the pressure.

• 27:46Jocko Willink?

  The pressure.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  And then that's not to mention like the day-to-day chores that allow your hobby activity to be a business or, or career or whatever. Man, it's a lot. Like freaking taxes.

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  Taxes?

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Doing all that. Yeah, man, you know how like when you're, you work at like a job and the taxes are just taken out? The taxes are taken out and all this stuff, but man, you're weaving baskets, you know, in your, in your new garage or whatever. Man, you gotta do your taxes, all this, I don't know. There's just a lot more to it when you switch over from hobby to career.

• 28:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  So that's my.

• 28:24Jocko Willink?

  My shout out to my tax guy. Brandon, he rocks so hard.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I know.

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  He's the best guy ever.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can dig it. But yeah, so there's that. And then, but yeah, if you're prepared for that, though, if you're totally prepared for that, or if you kind of like business, you know, that part of it, because there's a lot of chores in business.

• 28:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  And if you like that stuff, oh, man, that can be good. But yeah, and oh, and here's the thing, too, about when you get a good job. Not a good job, but a high paying job, but you don't like it. This is why, this is what I think anyway. I don't think I've ever had a junk job that paid a lot.

• 28:58Jocko Willink?

  You just had junk, low paying jobs.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. I had a few of those. Yes, for sure. Um, so, okay, I go, I wake up, I go to my job, drag myself to my job. Right? Drag myself. And then I can't wait to get home. I get home and get that paycheck after a week, two weeks or whatever, get that huge paycheck. And then I gotta drag myself to my job again. And I go home and I can, let me re, so basically your day to day for that junk job is so junk. I need something. I need pleasure. I need some kind of pleasure in my life. Let me buy that cool new car. So now, sure, I'll drag myself to my job, but at least I'm rolling in that new, nice new car.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Or.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  But eventually you trap yourself with that car. That car's a trap.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Because that becomes the focus a lot of the times.

• 29:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  You know, like.

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  Trying to make up. And I believe, so this is an interesting thing I've thought about. People like to make things. People like to make things. Like, it's a, it's a, it's a good feeling to make something, to create something. And I think a lot of the consumer attitude comes from the fact that, look, I don't have time to go and build a desk. And I wish I did have time to go build a desk, but I'll just go click on this button and the desk will show up in my house. And it's kind of like I created something.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Go voila.

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, voila, there it is. And the, and that gives you that, but the thing is, it's a, it's a short term gratification.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why it keeps going.

• 30:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's why it keeps going, because you go, okay, I really like to make a desk, but I'm just gonna buy this one. Or I'd really like to, you know what I'd love to do is just, is just completely refurbish an old car. Oh, I can't do that, but guess what? I can, I can just buy a new car. And then I'm rolling, it feels good for a minute, but you don't get the pure, you don't get the deep satisfaction that you would have gotten had you refurbished the car.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:37Jocko Willink?

  So you get, you trap yourself. So keep your spending in check. This is another part of this whole deal. Keep the spending in check.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  But that spending feels so good. And then, you know how like.

• 30:46Jocko Willink?

  It depends because there's sometimes when you don't have a lot of money, spending hurts. You know, it hurts when you're like, I can't separate myself from this money.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you have, you have a different mindset, I think, but I think like your average person, me included, is like, the, the spending hurts when you spend stu- spend on stuff you need rather than what you like want. You know what I'm saying?

• 31:08Jocko Willink?

  That's so backwards.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I'm saying, oh yeah, it is.

• 31:10Jocko Willink?

  That's so backwards.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Oh, big time, but it's a short term thing, for sure. It's like the immediate like satisfaction is, like when you gotta pay, let's say you, you don't really have dental insurance, right? Or let's say you do, but you still gotta pay out of, whatever. You gotta spend your money on that. Let's say it's $1,000 and you have $1,500 in your bank account, we'll say.

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  So it doesn't feel good to spend on dental, but it would have felt good to buy a new plasma screen TV that you could watch the UFC on.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Think about it, bro. When that plasma TV comes in, you're like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to hook this up. This thing is awesome. I'll even put it on my credit card and pay for that thing.

• 31:44Jocko Willink?

  Over the next 12 months.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  50% interest on this thing. I'll do that, no problem because of that pleasure of getting it. But, oh dental, you mean this toothache will go away? This toothache that's causing me a migraine will go away? And then I gotta, you know, then when it's time to pay that bill, you're like, it's hard, man. You don't really want it. It's weird. Yeah, it is backwards, so.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  All right, well, like I said, come up with a plan, come up with an exit strategy with contingencies and then save your money and execute. Get some. Check.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  How do you suggest setting SOPs, standard operating procedures? Where none currently exist?

• 32:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good question, and this is a,

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  not gonna spend a ton of time on this. Well, the best way to, to develop SOPs is to let them be developed organically, sort of from the people that are actually doing that task, whatever it is. And you kind of, you, you, you just turn what's actually happening into an SOP. And then if there's multiple methods happening for something, you kind of consolidate the methods into the best way. And then test them and then you'll have your SOP there. One thing that you shouldn't do with an SOP is come up with a standard operating procedure inside of a vacuum and then push it down on the folks below you in the chain of command. Because they're gonna be, they're gonna reject it. Um, they are going to.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  They are going to know a better way of doing it because you made it up in a vacuum. So, so don't do that. Now, there are some times where, let's say you're going to do something brand new. That's never been done before. And you have to kind of create. An SOP. Then if you have to do that, you, you need to kind of explain to the team. Hey, listen, guys, we've never done this type of mission before. We've never done this type of project before. Here's my best guess at what a standard operating procedure is going to look like. We're going to try and execute this, but believe me, it's not perfect. I'm open to feedback and I realize that it's going to change, but I want at least have a line for us to deviate from. And actually, this is in Extreme Ownership.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  I talked about how we started organizing the SSE. The Sensitive Site Exploitation. It's how we searched buildings. And it's in the book, but when you first, when we first started searching buildings, everyone just go in and ransack everything and just throw everything around. And it was totally ridiculous and ineffective. And eventually, you know, I said, okay, we need a standard operating procedure. And my assistant platoon commander, I said, hey, come up with a standard operating procedure of how we're going to do this. He did that. And when he did, of course, and it's in the book, people like, oh, this is going to take forever. And it was like, okay, listen, we're going to try it. If there's some adjustments we got to make, we'll make them. But let's at least give it a try it. And that's what we did. And one of the best things you can do, if you have to come up with an SOP. Is not only let it come organically from.

• 34:35Jocko Willink?

  The task itself, but let the people that are actually doing the task come up with the standard operating procedures. So if you had, if you had some project that you did over and over again, I wouldn't come and say, hey, okay, here's how I want you to do this project from now on, Echo. I'd say, hey, Echo, since you're doing this all the time, can you capture what it is you do? And, and we can take those best practices, turn them into a standard operating procedure and get them through the whole organization. And you'd say, oh, that's cool. You would kind of feel some ownership of that. And then you would put together a good plan. So that's pretty straightforward. With the standard operating procedures, the, the main thing is. Let them develop, let the team develop them. Keep an open mind, don't force them down people's throat.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Makes sense. Next question.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  I'm a seventeen year old. I'm a blue belt in jujitsu, which I received a few days after my sixteenth birthday.

• 35:30Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  And I have ambitions of pursuing jujitsu professionally and competing to the highest level possible. Of course, this requires discipline and commitment. So during the school term, I train jujitsu Monday through Saturday. And I weight train on Friday and Sunday. And when I have time off school, I train jujitsu three times a day. However, due to my commitment to this and my refusal to prioritize the other things over this, I feel I'm missing out on the social opportunities of of this part of my life. I miss parties and social events in order to train jujitsu and weight train because I know that I should have the discipline to do so. However, I feel lonely and isolated because of it.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Is this just weakness or should I make the occasional exception for a social event? Once again, love the work you do, you and Echo do. It's helped me immensely. Thanks from the UK.

• 36:23Jocko Willink?

  All right, the UK. First of all, it's just, okay, the hardcore, here's a couple hardcore answers. Hardcore answer number, what's your schedule like, right? Are you wasting any time? Have you, have you maximized the hours you can get out of a day? Or are you spending time doing other things that you shouldn't be doing? That being said, it sounds like you're getting after it pretty hard, which means you're probably pretty efficient. And if you're, if you're

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  not wasting a bunch of time and you're not doing a bunch of things that are nonproductive and you're feeling lonely and isolated, then guess what? You're going too far. You don't, you should not be feeling lonely and isolated. That's not good. You need to relax, especially because if you're training that much, you're likely overtraining. So broadly speaking now, broadly speaking, training should be enjoyable. Okay, this doesn't mean that you're gonna love it every day and I talk about that all the time. This doesn't mean every day you wake up and you're all, you know, smile from one ear to the other ear because you're so happy you gotta go do, you know, squats and deadlifts. Like, no, that doesn't happen. But broadly, the way it makes you feel, the way jiu-jitsu makes you feel, should make...

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  Are there times when you go on the jiu-jitsu mat and you get spanked? And you get ground out? And you get tapped out? And you feel like junk? Yes, that's gonna happen. But again, broadly, how does jiu-jitsu make you feel? It makes you feel good, you should enjoy it. To some extent, right? And you should not be getting burnt out, and I think that's the most important thing. Is that you shouldn't be getting burnt out on jiu-jitsu, on working out, and... And this is, this is important, especially for your 17 years old.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  There is more to life than jiu-jitsu and physical fitness. Right, there's more to, there's more to... There's more to doing well in life than just jiu-jitsu and physical fitness. So, a couple things. If you can't...

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  If you can't like communicate with people effectively, that's a real problem in any environment. Right, and if you're isolating yourself from other people, and you're not...

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  You're not learning how to interact with other human beings in a social environment? That's not good. And it's not only, it's not only that it's... It's not only that it's just not good for you, because yes, you as a person, you need to be well-rounded. You need, yes, you need to be strong, you need to be capable from a fighting perspective. But you also need to be smart, you need to be articulate, you need to be quick-witted.

• 39:07Jocko Willink?

  And those things are mandatory skills in life. I mean, if you're a black belt in jiu-jitsu? And you're a white belt in communicating with other human beings? That's not gonna be a good situation for you.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing is, the better you are, the more well-rounded you are in all these other aspects of life, those things will actually make you better at jujitsu too, because you'll be able to read people, you'll be able to deal with confrontation, you'll be able to understand other people's motivations, and all those things come from interacting with other human beings.

• 39:37Jocko Willink?

  So, I get it, I get the massive commitment, and that is what it takes, like if you want to compete at the highest level, I'm telling you, yes, you have to live, breathe, and eat jujitsu, you have to live, breathe, and eat conditioning.

• 39:55Jocko Willink?

  And that being said, if that's all you live, breathe, and eat,

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  that's gonna make you less apt to be a champion than if you make yourself a little bit more well-rounded in some of these other aspects. So, dude, keep training hard, seventeen-year-old, blue belt from UK, keep training hard, go out, occasionally, hang out with some people, have a good time.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  And that by no means, means, get hammered every time you do it.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  Not at all, not at all.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that social aspect, man, that's like, that's, it seems like, a lot of times, especially when you're training, or you're doing something that's kind of directly, or can be viewed as like, directly opposite of a social thing, you know, when you think socially, you think, oh, you guys are just slacking, hanging out, going to the bar, cruising at the beach, whatever, while, while we're over here training, kind of thing, right? Just like, just like people say, oh, you're sleeping on the couch, you know, what, are you lazy, sleeping on the couch, well, I don't know, maybe they need rest, you know? Or may, there's, there's, there's use in sleeping.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  Seems like that was a, that was a little, maybe, kind of a glimpse into the Echo Charles world right there.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe not, nonetheless.

• 41:12Jocko Willink?

  Why are you sleeping on the couch? Maybe I need rest.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm recovering from the work I'm doing, you see what I'm saying? I'm saying there's two parts of it, you know, there, there's that. And so, and people give it a bad rap, I think, especially like, you know, you know how like, you know, you hear these, you know, motivational gurus grind, I'll sleep when I'm dead, you know, that kind of thing, right?

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I say that.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  So, you said it, not me, but hey, alright. So, and I'm not saying that, you know, that's dumb or nothing like that. I'm saying, I'm saying that it produces a certain message that can be interpreted in a way that might not be the most beneficial.

• 41:49Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm sure, I think this, I'm glad that he asked this question because he's taking the attitude of like, okay, I'm gonna sleep when I'm dead and I'm gonna, I'm gonna hang out with other human beings after I'm a world champion. And again, do you need to be possessed to be a world champion? Yes, you do. But all I'm saying is, part of the things that will make you be a better, well-rounded person, the more well-rounded you are, the better you're gonna perform. You know, you're gonna learn how to deal with anxiety, you're gonna learn how to deal with people, you're gonna learn how to look at someone else's situation, look in their eyes and be like, okay, this guy's stressed out, or this guy's panicking, or this guy, you know, you learn those things from interacting with other people. That's gonna make you a better competitor. You're gonna learn more about yourself, that's gonna make you a better competitor.

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  And you're gonna be, if you, if you relax, now what you don't wanna do is go so far in the other direction where you, where you show up to a competition, you don't feel like you've prepared as much as you could.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:44Jocko Willink?

  But, that, what does that do? You go too far in the other direction, now you overtrained.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  So, you gotta find a little bit, it sounds like you're a little bit off balance, especially because you're feeling, like the words that kind of keyed me off the most in this was, what was it, lonely and isolated. That's what kind of, if you said everything else here, and then you were like, um, am I overtraining? I would've said, no, man, you're getting after it, good job. But then when you say, look, I feel lonely and isolated, you don't wanna feel lonely and isolated. Like, and that's another thing, when I train Jiu-Jitsu, that's kind of where I hang out. Like, I don't interact with people normally, it's a social thing. We might not even talk, we might not even say one word, other than, do you wanna roll? And then we train, that's sort of my social activity, of, of hanging around with other people. And I don't feel, I leave the gym and I feel like I hung around with a lot of people,

• 43:34Jocko Willink?

  I didn't say anything to them.

• 43:37Jocko Willink?

  But if you feel lonely and isolated, that's not good. That's getting to you. That means your mind is starting to be worn down from this. Don't let it get worn down. It's gonna refuel you to go out. It's gonna, uh, I, uh, watch this. Watch this. If you're feeling lonely and isolated, your workout that day is like a nine. If you feel like, like, hey, I'm having a good life. I'm, I'm filled with energy. I like hanging out. I just, you know, had a good time with this girl last night. And now I'm going to train. It's like, oh, okay. Guess what? That's workouts nine point seven. You get a better training because you had a good time.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, I don't like the, I don't like the fact that he says he's lonely and isolated. That's not good.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  And of, again, this is just a dichotomy. Because then you'll get someone that says, okay, well, Jaco said, go out and, you know, have party, you know, party. Party with the ladies.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 44:30Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then the next, yeah, it'll help my workout. And then the, well, you know, maybe if I only work out three times a week and I spend most of my time partying. I'll be just, I'll get workouts level 11. No, you won't. So, yeah, man. Make some exceptions to your discipline and go enjoy the company of some other people. Grow a little bit as a person, become a better human, compete better, train harder. That's it.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Agree. So, man, this is a, a concept that I think is, i- if you can kind of incorporate or understand this concept in, you know, when you're working hard at something. So when I was young, when I first started lifting weights, first started, I don't know, 15 or whatever, however old I am. So you know, you know how when you lift weights and you get that little pump, right? To me, to me, I thought that that's literally my muscles growing. You know, like I didn't know how it all worked. I was like, dang, my muscles, I can see the growth already. So all I gotta do is lift every single day and watch out quick. You know, because most people, they won't work as hard as me because all just, because I like doing it. I like the pump, whatever.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Um, so I would do, we, I was, remember, uh, the guy, my friend I mentioned, Eric Masters, pilot in the air force?

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  So he, he, the one, he always had the soda above the microwave there. Anyway, so I'd lift with him and his dad would invite me and my brother over. We'll, we'll lift and he started off with bench and you know, this stuff. So we go lift and I'm like, dang, I feel a pump. So now, when I, when we trend, kind of went into, I want to say, like varsity football. I don't know. Anyway, we were, we started lifting in the weight room at the high school. So I would do the same thing every single day, every single day, every single day. And my friend was like, this other guy I know, he goes, hey, you, are you benching every single day? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, bro, your muscles aren't gonna grow. I was like, what are you talking about? Of course they do. They grow every single day. Like I feel it even. And he's like, bro, you don't know how it works.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  He's like, you don't, when you lift, they don't grow. They actually get torn. They get like, almost like a little micro injury. That, that's how it works. And then when you rest and when you sleep and when you eat, then they grow. And I was like, and it did, it still didn't make sense. So I was like, okay, I guess, you know? He's like, you ever, you know, when the soreness, you know, when you get the soreness or whatever? I was like, yeah. He's like, that's like it, like hurt, like kind of injured or whatever. And then it has to heal up. And when it heals up, it heals up bigger. And I'm like, oh, okay. He's like, so you can't bench every day. Otherwise it'll just like, it'll just won't grow. It'll always be damaged. I was like, oh, it makes sense. So that rest in between workouts is kind of important, given my goal. Grow some muscles, you see what I'm saying?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Where this kind of thing where it's like, all go, all go, no rest. Right? You need that rest to grow, literally. And that goes for anything.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  Truth. And this is kind of, the next question is very closely related to this. And that's why I put it kind of like right next to it.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that is, Jaco, I should have asked at muster zero zero six, is there a dichotomy, dichotomy in the unmitigated, unmitigated daily discipline in all things?

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And like I said, this is why I put this question here, because it's related to the question, the answer that I just gave, which is yes, you can. You can overdo it. And there is a dichotomy. You can put so much focus on working. You can put so much working, so much focus on working that you lose track of your family. And everything goes down tail with your family, or you can do the opposite, put so much focus on your family. That you lose track of, that you don't do what you're supposed to do at work. So you need to back off a little.

• 48:13Jocko Willink?

  And you get people that waste time on things that don't matter. This goes back, remember the podcast we did where I was talking about how? Like a black belt, when a white belt's grabbing, grabbing a black belt sleeve and it just doesn't matter. There's people that think that it's important that I do this thing this certain way. And the reality is it's useless, it doesn't matter. You're being OCD, right? You're being OCD. So, or you maybe not being full OCD, but you're being borderline. You gotta think about what's important and what's not important. And if you're, if you generally, or oftentimes, people that are hyper disciplined about little things.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  A lot of times they're missing their discipline in other areas of their life. And one of them, and, and you, we've talked about this before too, which is. Somebody that, just because someone is hyper disciplined in their physical fitness, doesn't mean that they're disciplined in their rest of their life in many other ways. Whether it's financial, whether it's their relationships, whatever, like everything, they can be screwing every, they're super disciplined. In weighing their food and doing macro calorie counting and all that stuff, right? And yet, they haven't paid their phone bill, or whatever, and they've got financial issues, or they've got health, like other health issues. And so, you need to, you need to back off enough on the little things that don't matter.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  That, so that the things that matter, you can actually take care of. Now, the weird dichotomy in this is again, it's always comes up. The Russian soldiers in the Chechen war not shaving. Is it really important that they shave? Not really, but what's really important is that they have discipline overall. And when they stop shaving, they, they let go of their discipline. And that was the problem.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  Now, so, there is about, that's what I'm saying, there's a balance. And I guess, let me, let me make that a little more clearly. If we were in a war, and what I was focused on was, Echo, you better shave tomorrow. That was my big focus. Echo, your uniform better be squared away tomorrow. Like, that, that is not what the most important, the most important thing is like, Echo, do you understand where the fallback positions are? Echo, do you understand what your field of fire is? Echo, do you know what you're supposed to do when we start getting overrun? Those are what's important. And but if I focus on this little thing that doesn't really matter, that can, that can be a problem. So, I need to make sure that I'm focused on the correct things.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  And, in life, yes, you can unmitigate a daily discipline if you try to apply it to absolutely everything in your life. Just like prioritize and execute. If you try and solve all your problems at the same time, you won't be able to solve any. If you try and implement perfect discipline in every single thing that you do, you won't be able to apply discipline to the things that are most important.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  My garage gym

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  floor

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:13Jocko Willink?

  is dirty.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:16Jocko Willink?

  I sweep it.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Sure. Of course.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  I sweep it every third day. I just sweep it out. But I don't get in there with a bucket and a mop and try and clean the chalk off so it's perfect black.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  Why?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Cause it doesn't matter. Yeah, man.

• 51:31Jocko Willink?

  So, some things in life are like your gym floor.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  It just, it doesn't matter if there's chalk on it. I'm gonna put more chalk on it later. The chalk doesn't make me slip. It doesn't make me sick. It doesn't, it doesn't, I don't care how it looks. So don't worry about the chalk on the gym floor. In fact, there's gyms in the world where you're not allowed to have chalk, cause they don't want chalk on the gym floor. Those places shouldn't exist in the world. They should be, they should be illegal.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  There should be chalk everywhere in the gym.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Available, yeah, you're right.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  So, don't focus on things that don't matter. There you go.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. It seems like the whole discipline equals freedom thing. And whether you agree with it or not, actually, you know, I think you will agree with this. It's a dance. You know, it's a dance with discipline and freedom.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  You mean a, a balance of an economy? Yes, it is. In fact, I wrote a book about it. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate you pointing that out to me.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  So, and it's gonna just-

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I should take ownership too.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  It's just, it just depends on who you are. Like, you, the discipline is gonna be taking the lead big time. You know, and when you exercise your freedom with- I don't know, I don't know. Diet wise is like what? Mint chocolate chip ice cream or something like this? When you exercise that freedom, it's not gonna be very often, but when you do, boom, it's gonna have benefits.

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's when you see somebody that's, let's just talk about this. Well, when you see somebody that's out of shape, you could say, you could say one of two things. You could say not enough discipline, or you could say too much freedom. Right? We know it's one of those two things. If you see someone that's having financial issues, it's one of two things. Not enough discipline, or too much freedom. They're getting out that credit card when they shouldn't be, right? So, yeah, that goes without saying that it's a balance, it's dichotomy. That's correct.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so even, and also on top of that, the discipline in all things, because that's the question, right?

• 53:16Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you could write a book called The Dance.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  The Dance, sure.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  Of Leadership.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  I'll just copy the dichotomy later, it'll be all good. But the, in all things, like, discipline in diet, discipline in, you know, workouts, and not slacking and whatever, and that looks way different than discipline in like, relationships, for example. Like, if you're like a different, like, to, you know, the discipline not to lose your temper, or the discipline to, to respond to a maybe not disciplined person, or some, let's say it's someone you love, who's, who's maybe emotionally different than you or whatever, that looks and feels way different, you know? If, if you really think about it. So, if you're like, hey, I'm not gonna, I don't know,

• 54:02Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna go to the park with my wife because I'm working out. That's my discipline. I'm no slack, you know?

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you're lacking the discipline to organize around your relationship properly.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  With your relationship or whatever.

• 54:15Jocko Willink?

  You're lacking the discipline to make sure that your wife understands that you're going to train.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 54:20Jocko Willink?

  Because I'm going to train, boy.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  But as far as we're like, and now that's back on the training end, but like, with like, your relationships, unless your relationships aren't important to you, which is, I mean, I would, I would argue most times, there's- Some relationships in your life that that are gonna be important, I would argue that.

• 54:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, there should be.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  I think so too, yes, so.

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  That's what you have a seal plating for.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Maintaining discipline in those relationships looks different, so it might not be as obvious. So when someone says unmeditated, when you say unmeditated discipline in all things, I don't think automatically right off the top of my head like, oh, you know, my relationship with my wife, you know, or even the relationship with your kids, like when I think unmeditated daily discipline in all things, including my kids, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure they're disciplined. Oh, but the discipline of your, of yourself, dealing with the kids, that's a whole different thing. See what I'm saying?

• 55:12Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  So you gotta, gotta keep those in mind. Well, I, I've found.

• 55:15Jocko Willink?

  Focus the discipline on yourself.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I found when I, when I keep that in mind, it, it'll help. And then, yeah, and do the dance with freedom. You designate how much freedom you're gonna, uh, exercise. And then you do the dance, see what I'm saying?

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  You balance the dichotomy is what you do.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  I don't dance, bro.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Right, you dance, right, it's a, it, it, and here's the thing.

• 55:35Jocko Willink?

  Come on, man.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Here's the wrong thing, what I made a mistake of at one point, long time ago. I looked at you and I was like, shoot, I need to do that. I need to wake up, I need to like, do all this stuff, whatever, but if, if I were to do that, I'd jam myself up. So I can't like, you can't use like the next person as the standard as far as the balance goes. Like you have to designate your own balance.

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz you have to modulate for your life.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever, bro, people don't just automatically know that. I know I didn't.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Figured it out.

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  I didn't see you getting up at four thirty at any point, though.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I tried, and you know that, dude.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Anyway, next question. Is there one form or type of jujitsu that is better than other forms? Not Japanese versus small circle jujitsu?

• 56:29Speaker 01

  But pressure versus movement, bottom versus top, different types of quote-unquote games. Got it.

• 56:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so if you don't know this, there's different types of jiu-jitsu in the world. There's things like he mentioned here, there's Japanese jiu-jitsu and there's something called small circle jiu-jitsu. And then there's just a million different kind of random sort of names that people will put on jiu-jitsu, right? The one that we do is generally referred to as Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I just generally refer to it as jitsu because that's what I'm talking about.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  So, there are different types. Of all the different types of jiu-jitsu, the one that you should be doing is Brazilian jiu-jitsu. The other types

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  are not what you want to be doing.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  We'll say they're less proven.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, generally. And, yeah, so that's just the reality of it, so. Now, but then he's asking a different question, which is inside of even Brazilian jiu-jitsu, there's different types of styles that people will have. And these are, people end up calling them games, like what kind of game does this person have? What kind of game does that person have? And different people have different games, and it depends on their body. The different body types have different styles, different games. Different, even different like cardio levels can have different games, different styles. Different flexibility levels, different games, different styles. Even different personalities.

• 58:02Jocko Willink?

  If you have different personalities, you'll end up with a different style. So, the question is, are there some games or some styles that are better than other games or other styles inside of jiu-jitsu? And my answer to that, I think is no. There's not games that are better than other games, not styles of jiu-jitsu that are better than other styles of jiu-jitsu. It's just different people gravitate towards different ones and they use them successfully.

• 58:36Jocko Willink?

  And that's why they continue to use them. I would say this, though. If you can, then develop more than one game, right? More than one game. Like if all you know how to do is pressure pass, that's the only kind of pass you know, and you come up against someone that's really good at defending the pressure pass. You won't be able to pass the guard. If you're, if you have a really good top game, but you go against a wrestler that's a better wrestler than you and put you on your back, then that's gonna be a problem. So, you're gonna, another thing people ask is how do I develop my style? The answer is you just train and your style's gonna come. You, you don't know, occasionally someone might tell you like, hey, you're long and lanky.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  You should use triangles, you should set up good triangle games or good Darce chokes. Or someone says, hey, you're, you got good base, you should, you know, use a lot of pressure. So, there can be someone giving you some indication, but you're gonna self-select as you train what works. And as you can continue to do what works for you, you'll get better and better at it.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's funny. It makes sense, like, just train and it'll sort of sort itself out. You know, your game, your style, like, and the, the reason, um, this might seem kind of, but the reason why I like these tall, lanky guys, they'll do like triangles and stuff, because when they first start training, though, the triangle is gonna come way easier than a guy who's not as lanky, you know, early on. So they'll be like, oh, shoot, that's successful, so it's kind of like, check, that, that's good. So there again, boom, that becomes part of their game super early. So that kind of is a dominant part of their whole game. And then, you know, the more, the more they train, the more things are gonna start falling into place in their game, you know? And so if you have a lanky person, all those lanky moves are gonna register way quicker than, you know, a shorter guy or stockier guy.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny how you put that, just train. It'll, they'll sort of just-

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  They reveal themselves.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  They reveal themselves, yeah, they totally do.

• 1:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this, this question also ties into the next question, so I kind of coupled it up with the next question as well.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Did you, do you feel, well, you know, your answer to the, is there a, a better game or whatever? I feel like, you know, like when you watch ADCC or something like this, and then you have a guy like Hodger, who's 6'4", you know, and then you have Marcelo Garcia, guys who are arguably like just as good, the two best guys ever to do it. And they're just completely opposite.

• 1:00:57Jocko Willink?

  Body, body styles.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Jocko Willink?

  Body types.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Man, it's kind of like when I watch those, it's kind of like, um, like, you ever heard of the game Mortal Kombat?

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  I have heard of it, yes.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's like this, it was this real violent game in 2000 because it's like they have weapons and stuff that they can sort of bust out randomly. Like this guy named Scorpion, he has this weapon, it's a spear with a rope or chain or whatever, and he pulls you and he does this thing. Then there's a guy who can freeze people, you know, and the guy who can, um, I don't know, throw his hat and just cut people, I don't know, you know? So people have all these different weapons, but then you would think, hey, if a guy can freeze a person, wouldn't he be the best guy? You just freeze people, that's all you gotta do, you know? But it doesn't work itself out, it's whoever's good at using the little ice ray or whatever, whatever it's called. Who's better at using that spear with the, with the rope?

• 1:01:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we'll go with it, man.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  But that's, that's the way it works in Jiu Jitsu too, I'm just saying.

• 1:01:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, anyways, that question relates to the next question.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, yes, next question, sure, yes. Hi, Jaco.

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  Mortal Kombat. Or was it Street Fighter?

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  No, no, there is Street Fighter 2, yes. Actually, there's Street Fighter, which really kinda went unnoticed, I think, by the general public. Then there's Street Fighter 2, that's when it sort of became like this big, that was like the main combat game, I think, with fighting Street Fighter 2.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  What years was that?

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  I don't know, I was in high school though, so, I don't know, 90s, it was good.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I was doing Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, nah, well, yeah, man, well, you missed out a little bit because there's a lot of concepts. Yeah, Street Fighter 2 with, there was this guy named Guile, his name was Guile.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, revisit that, or in your case, visit that, Guile, he threw this thing called a sonic, it's, it's, it's, just look at it. Anyway, next question, Jaco, there's an army cliche that I'm sure you've heard of. Or you've heard that goes, everyone's leadership style is different. I've heard it used many times as a cover up for failed mission or with someone who just isn't getting it done. What's your opinion on this? For all the advice that you give, there seems to be a continuous method to your madness and some basic principles for being a good leader. Does everyone have a different leadership style? Or is there an optimal, optimal method with personality tweaks?

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  That's just amazing how well this Jiu Jitsu comparison to this is, this is, this is just an incredible translation. And if you know the way broadly, broadly, you see it in all things because what this question is, is exactly the same as the question above. And, and the fact of the matter is, if you know Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:03:31Jocko Willink?

  You know the fundamental principles of it. You can do these tweaks. If you don't know the fundamental principles of it, you're just gonna get destroyed.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  Now, okay, if you're a catch wrestler, that those have the same sort of fundamental things going on. You know what I mean? If you know sambo, so if you know judo, so I'm saying if you understand, I don't know what to call them, but if you understand like the fundamental principles of submission grappling of any kind.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  If you know what those are, then you can make some tweaks to them. You can make some, some adjustments to them to ba- based on your style and your body type and your personality and your strengths and weaknesses. Yes, it is the same thing with leadership. So, people are gonna have different styles. They're gonna have different styles of leadership. Some people are super charismatic, right? And that person could take advantage of their charisma. Some people like connect with other people really easily. Some people don't. You're gonna have just different little nuances to your personality and your brain

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  that are going to, that you're gonna make little adaptations in your leadership style. That's okay. Where it gets not okay is if you leave the fundamental principles. That's where you have a problem. There was, there's an example that I thought of when I read this question. There was a guy that was coming through my training when I was running the, uh, the advanced training for the SEALs. And he was making, and actually Leif's told stor- you, you remember Leif? He's told the story. I think it's in the book too. I don't remember, but it's, it's podcast, book. We've talked about it a bunch. We talk about it when we go talk to clients. Leif tells this story about how he was trying to give commands over the radio and no one's doing anything

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  because it's ineffective to give commands in a radio in a, when there's a lot of machine gun firing and all this stuff going on. So I said, hey Leif, use verbal commands. And he kinda like looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, hey man, just give it a try. He did it. It worked.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  A couple of years later, I'm running training and there's a guy that's giving a bunch of commands on the radio. And I go to him, I go, hey man, use verbal commands. And he's like, he's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, yell at everyone so they know what it is you want them to do. They can't hear you on the radio. There's a lot of stuff going on. And he goes, I don't lead that way. That's what he said to me. I don't lead that way. And you know, they just got destroyed. Because you know, in his, I don't know if he thought like, hey, look, I'm not gonna yell. I wasn't telling him to yell at his people. I was telling him like, yell the verbal commands. And he wouldn't do it. And they just got annihilated all the time.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  And he ended up not doing well as a leader. Because he was breaking the fundamental principles of combat leadership, like simple, clear, concise commands that everyone understands it. If they don't understand it, whose fault it is? It's yours. And if you're talking on the radio, giving these complex orders, people aren't going to understand what to do. But if you give them the the the standard operating procedure maneuver, command, peel right. That's gonna get passed and everyone's gonna do it. So he strayed away from the fundamental principles. It's like, it's like saying, well, you know, with me, if I give you, if I use a pressure point on your neck, then I'll win. It's like, no, actually, that's not gonna be effective. You, the pressure point thing is a fantasy.

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, it's real. Oh, okay, it is real. You know what? And there's, there's certain parts of your body that hurt a little bit more when you press into them. I understand that. That doesn't change you from getting choked. Doesn't change you from getting double leg takedown. You try and hit some other pressure point while they're doing a double leg takedown on you, you're not gonna make it.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  It's not gonna happen. So.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you have, and I've told this story too, about the guy that wasn't very loud. And I told him like, hey, you gotta get louder. And eventually he got the guys that were loud in his platoon to start giving the verbal commands because he wasn't loud enough to do it. And that was an effective way, still using the same principle, just using a little bit of a different technique. That's fine. So yes, different leaders are gonna lead differently, but the principles are gonna remain the same. The, the principles of ownership, cover, move, simple, prioritize, and execute decentralized command, and balancing the dichotomies. And then there's plenty of them in leadership. The good leaders out there, they will follow those principles. And they'll make little tweaks to them based on their personality, and that's fine.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  But a tweak doesn't require an excuse. And also effective or ineffective. Like if you make a change, if you do something a certain way and it's not effective, then whatever you change isn't working. It's not working. So, use the fundamental principles, make little adaptations, it's okay. But if a leader is ineffective and they're failing, guess what? Their little adaptations, like, hey, I could make up a new move, right? For jujitsu.

• 1:08:38Jocko Willink?

  And I, and I call it the, the, the whiz bang.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  And I say, hey, I made up this cool move. It's called the whiz bang. And let me show it to you. And so I show it to you and you're like, well, I don't know if that'll work or not. And I'm like, no, it'll definitely work. The cool thing about jujitsu is, when I try it, we find out if it works. Now, something doesn't work immediately. Right? But let's say I keep drilling it on you and drilling it on you and I can never get you in the whiz bang.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  And then I go in a tournament. And I try the whiz bang and I get smashed and defeated. And then I, I go through the consolation bracket, I try the whiz bang and it gets smashed and defeated. Then I go in the next tournament, I try the whiz bang and I get smashed and defeated. Then I get in the consolation bracket, I, I try the whiz bang, I get smashed and defeated. And I do this for six months. And the whiz bang never works. Effective or ineffective?

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Currently ineffective.

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  It's ineffective. It's ineffective. If you're in a leadership position, or someone's in a leadership position, and they're failing, and they're failing to execute the mission over and over and over again, their little tweak, their little leadership thing that they think is good to go, it's not. It's not good to go. And it probably, in fact, I'll tell you, it violates one of the fundamental principles of combat leadership. And if you can identify which one of those things it's violating,

• 1:09:55Jocko Willink?

  you can get them to clean it up and fix it.

• 1:09:59Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Whiz bang. Don't try it.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Don't try the whiz bang. I don't know though, I mean, these jujitsu moves, you know how like guys will like bust out moves? Man, I don't know. It's, it's this endless thing with jujitsu moves.

• 1:10:12Jocko Willink?

  New moves come out.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  And, and you won't hit a move 100% of the time, and you definitely won't hit it when you first start doing it. It's gonna be hard. How many arm locks do you think you put on someone before you made someone tap?

• 1:10:25Jocko Willink?

  In the beginning, you probably did 50 arm locks before you got someone to tap. Yeah, maybe even more.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  So that doesn't mean with the after the first forty nine, oh, it's ineffective. I'm not gonna do it.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  The the the big differences, the big differences. An arm lock is a proven known entity.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Cover and move is a proven known entity.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Simple is a proven known entity. Prioritize and execute is a proven known entity.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Extreme ownership is a proven known entity. Decentralized command is a proven, it's like an arm lock. It's like a choke. That's why when some people say to me, oh, well. My boss doesn't like extreme ownership.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, I I know what's happening like it's there. The boss's ego is offended because there's some other. Some somebody telling him a different way to lead. No, it's like. What do you believe in? I don't believe in extreme ownership. Oh, I blame and I believe in placing the blame on other people. That's how I lead. That's complete, really completely ridiculous. Everybody knows that's ridiculous. It's completely ridiculous. Cover and move. I don't believe in cover and move. Oh, so you just like your other team members to go and take care of themselves and you take care of yourself? How does that work?

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Don't work.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't work. Keep the, oh, I don't like to keep things simple. No, I like to make things so complicated complicated that people don't understand what I'm talking about. Does that make any sense whatsoever? No, it doesn't. Prioritize and execute. No, don't do that. What I should, what I'm gonna do is spread myself so thin that I don't have the assets or resources to actually accomplish anything. That's what I'm gonna do, cuz that makes sense cuz I don't believe in extreme ownership or those fundamental laws of combat leadership. That's where you're at. Decentralized command. Oh, I don't believe in that. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make every single decision myself from the headquarters position. When you guys wanna make a decision out there on the battlefield or out there in the on the manufacturing floor. I want you to run every single decision decision up through me cuz that's gonna be effective.

• 1:12:20Jocko Willink?

  So if you violate one of these principles, you're gonna have problems as a leader. If you tweak these principles, that's fine. If you look at decentralized command and you're like, you know what? I know that the normal kind of span of control is five people. I can handle more than that. I can handle nine and you step it up. That's tweak. That's okay. Right? That's fine. If you prioritize and execute, hey, the way I prioritize and execute, and this is the truth, the way I prioritize and execute, isn't I look at my number one problem and I only focus on that one. I assign somebody to my number one problem. And I say, hey, Bill, go handle that room over there. It's a problem. And then I look at Mike and say, hey, Mike,

• 1:13:05Jocko Willink?

  get the rest of this hallway cleared. So I'm actually handling two things, but I give Bill the priority. So that's a tweak. I'm using assets. That's fine. So sometimes, yes, you gotta make these little adjustments. Everyone's got a different leadership style, but you don't violate the principles of leadership. Just like you don't violate the principles of submission grappling, I'll call it.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Dig it. Next question. I'm a huge fan of the podcast and I'd like your advice.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  When I was younger, I joined the National Guard in an attempt to do something with my life and get out of depression. I lost my discipline and goals after basic training and continued in depression and disorganization. I had the opportunity to go to fight, to flight school, but instead tested positive on a drug test and I was given a general discharge. I, of course, take full responsibility and feel like an idiot. How would you recommend moving past this failure? What would you have done if your SEAL career ended with a mistake?

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  Well, if my SEAL career had ended with a mistake, I would have figured out what my next mission was going to be. That's, that's what I would have done. I mean, I would have said, okay, I like that job. I failed at it. What can I learn from that? And what can I do next differently to make sure I don't make that mistake again? I'm gonna learn from the past, but I'm not gonna dwell on it. There, there's no point in dwelling on it. The only point in dwelling on it is to learn from it. So, so that's what I would do here. And then I would take what I learned from my experiences of where I failed. And I would also take the positive things that I learned, because you, even that, even that failure is a positive.

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Even that failure is a positive, because you realize, you realize the value of the opportunity that you had, and you blew it, and you're like, okay, I'm never gonna let that happen again. Lesson learned. I'm actually stoked I get to learn that lesson. Because there's gonna be more opportunities that come up in life. And you gotta make sure that you don't disregard those opportunities when they come up. And so I would have taken those lessons learned, take that, take that failure and turn it into something positive and made good things happen when I figured out what my new mission and new career was gonna be.

• 1:15:39Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. You can, you can do so much good. And you know, that's going back to the story that I told about Jeff in the beginning of this podcast.

• 1:15:50Jocko Willink?

  One of the wording, some of the wording that I struggled with in the kid's story, and again, it's on, it's the Warrior Kid Podcast, one of the things that I struggled with in telling the story was, I ended up saying Jeff had gone too far and he couldn't correct himself. He had gone too far and he couldn't come back. And that's a real hard thing to tell a person, and it's a real hard thing to tell a kid. And the reason why I left it that way, the reason why I kept it like, listen, you can make mistakes that you can't come back from, especially as a kid.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  You can make mistakes that you can't come back from. They're pretty rare, right? There's not too many mistakes that are so grievous that you can't recover from them. Like this guy. Hey, man, he made a mistake, failed a drug test, given a general discharge. That sucks. Guess what? He can do all kinds of good in the world. He can make up for that tenfold. He can start a business, make money, he can create a family, he can raise great kids. And there's so many things that he can make sure his kids understand that and know that and learn from it. And he can make sure some other neighborhood kids and high school kids and grade school kids, he can make such an impact on the world by learning from that mistake. So it's very, it's a harsh thing to say like, hey, there's some things you can't. Now, what this guy can't recover from,

• 1:17:19Jocko Willink?

  and this is what, this is the fact that you have to face. And this is why I told it this way in the kid's story.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  He didn't understand, when he made that mistake, he didn't understand that there's some mistakes you cannot recover from. He can't be a pilot now. It's not going to happen. Zero chance of him being a military pilot. That's the way it works. So if I would have had the opportunity to tell him when he was 13 years old, hey, listen, bro, I get it, you're gonna step outside the box sometimes, but there's some mistakes that you can make that you'll never be able to recover from. So think about what you're doing before you do them. You need to think about what you're doing before you do them. And if I would have had the opportunity to tell him that when he was 13 years old, he might have had a better decision-making process when he got older. That's why I left it that way for those kids. So that they recognize that there are some things that you do as a person, as a kid,

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  that you cannot recover from. You cannot recover from them. Now, that being said, when you take this and you put it in perspective as an adult, see, and as an adult, you have much broader world to be a part of. And just because he's not gonna be a pilot, a military pilot, by the way, just because he's not gonna be a military pilot, there's all kinds of other opportunities out there. And you can explain that to an adult, but it's hard to explain that to a kid. So what other opportunities, I mean, even if, especially like, oh, you wanna be a pilot? Cool, you can become a civilian pilot. And you can, you know, you can fly, you can make things happen that way.

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  But what we're not gonna do and what I would not do is dwell on the past and dwell on what the big missed opportunity is cuz guess what? That's a missed opportunity that there's all kinds of people in the world would love for that to be their biggest mistake that they've made. That's it? They would love, there's someone sitting in prison right now. That's like, man, I wish all I did was fail a drug test and I could have learned my lesson. Instead, I'm sitting here in prison. Or I got injured really bad cuz I did something that I shouldn't have done. Or I made a bad decision. Or I got someone that I care about hurt or injured cuz I took him in a car when I was drunk. Like, those are the kind of mistakes. This mistake? Sure, it's a bummer. Guess what? There are infinitely, infinitely worse mistakes that he could have made.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Infinitely worse. So...

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  You're alright, man. You're okay. Learn from it. Don't dwell on it. Move on and go do something really positive in the world.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Hey, Jaco. What can we do with a coworker who isn't on board? When someone brings up something to him, he gets defensive and turns it into being everyone else's problem?

• 1:20:07Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. This was a Twitter question, by the way. And I answered it. And I answered it really simply, really straightforward. Take ownership of the problem and solve it. Take ownership of the problem and fix it.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Right? Cuz think about what's happening here, right? What the person is saying like, oh, this is me saying, oh, Echo won't take ownership of the problem. And every time I tell him he does something wrong, he just gets defensive.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:32Jocko Willink?

  So, I mean, obviously, I'm not communicating with you well enough. If all I'm doing is blaming you and you're getting defensive. And by the way, if I'm the type of person that takes ownership of things, why am I blaming you in the first place? I should be looking at myself.

• 1:20:48Jocko Willink?

  I should be looking at myself and by the way if Echo if you point your fingers at me and you say hey this is my fault. You know what I say? Yeah, I agree. It is my fault and here's what I'm gonna do to fix it.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, I'm not gonna rub it in your face. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it so I prove a point. That's not what I'm doing. I'm actually doing it because I wanna win. I'm actually doing it because I want to accomplish the mission. That's why I'm gonna fix the problem.

• 1:21:11Jocko Willink?

  Now, if we have a weak member of the team that doesn't take ownership, then guess what? It's my responsibility to take ownership of the problem and fix it. And eventually, but the good thing about this is if you make an excuse about something and I fix that excuse. And then you make an excuse about something else, I fix that one. And then you make an excuse about something else and I fix that one. Eventually, there's no more excuses for you. And now you're left with what you can actually handle as Echo with no more excuses to make. And then either you're capable or you're not. And by the way, guess what? As the leader, then it becomes my job to get rid of you if you can't, if you cannot do the thing that I asked you to do or that you're supposed to do for the team. So

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  yeah, because I mean eventually if you, if, if I keep stepping up and taking things away from you, there's not gonna be any more excuses and you'll either end up with no responsibility and therefore no value and then you have no job. That's the way it works. Now, let me ask you this.

• 1:22:13Jocko Willink?

  When is there a time that a subordinate

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  does something? And it's not the leader's fault? So, so think about this. And when something goes wrong with a team member, when is it not the leader's fault? So if you got a machine gunner and the machine gunner shoots outside of his field of fire, clearly, he didn't pay attention during the brief. That's the problem.

• 1:22:49Jocko Willink?

  If I have a machine gunner that engages non-hostile targets. It's the machine gunner's fault because he didn't do improper. He did improper positive identification of his targets and engaged. Friendlies or or at least non-hostiles. So that's the machine gunner's fault, or the machine gunner's weapon goes down.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Because the machine gunner didn't clean. It's his fault because he didn't clean his weapon, maintain his weapon properly. The machine gunner's fault. So all those things. The machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire. The machine gunner engages non-hostile targets. The machine gunner's weapon goes down. All those are the machine gunner's fault. Clearly.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  Or maybe not so clearly. Because here's how I would look at those things. Because by the way, when I point, if you're my machine gunner and I put my finger at you and start yelling at you and telling you that you did something wrong. Obviously, we know what happened. You start making excuses and blaming other people and and you don't. Accepting responsibility because you get defensive and that's what people do. So for me.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  And what a good leader does is a good leader. When the machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire. The leader says, oh, you know what? I didn't explain the fields of fire clearly enough for you. I'm sorry, I'll fix it. Machine gunner engages a non-hostile target. Then the leader says, hey, I should have given you better training on target identification. We will go back and fix that.

• 1:24:18Jocko Willink?

  Or the machine gunner's weapon goes down. It means that I, hey, as the leader, you know what? I should have done a better job inspecting weapons. I should have explained how important the maintenance was. That's my fault. I won't let it happen again.

• 1:24:34Jocko Willink?

  So even in these instances where it's real easy to blame the individual. A good leader, instead of blaming the individual, will take ownership of the problem.

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  That's what you do and that's what's going on in this case. You got a coworker that's not on board and, and just gets defensive and turns it into everyone else's problem. That's right. Grab ownership of those problems. And by the way, the, the subordinate that's not taking ownership, that's your fault as a leader. And the way that you get someone to take ownership isn't by saying, hey, don't get defensive. You need to take ownership of this problem. It's your problem. That doesn't make people take ownership. Here's the tricky part. Here's the black belt situation. The black belt situation is if I want you to take ownership, instead of blaming you, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take ownership of the problem. I'm gonna relieve you of that. And now you're gonna go, no, no, no, that, that, no, I should be able to fix that.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm sorry, boss. I'm sorry, Jaco. I shouldn't have shot my, I shouldn't have shot outside the field of fire. I need to pay better attention during the brief. If I don't know what it was, I'm gonna ask questions next time. Are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. Please, let me get it fixed. And that is how you get someone to take ownership. You don't get people to take ownership by telling them to take ownership of things.

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  And there's a little dichotomy here too. Because if it's a plan, then the way I get you to take ownership of it is by saying, hey, Echo, come up with a plan. Like we talked about the standard operating procedures earlier. If I come up with the standard operating procedures myself and then I force them onto you, you don't take ownership of those. Those are mine. So I have to give you ownership, but when it's a negative, so when it's a positive thing, I give it to you. When it's a negative thing, I take it.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  I take it. Positive thing, give it. Cause people want that positive thing. When it's a negative thing, they don't want it. You take it from them.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, when it's a positive thing and you give it to them, guess what they wanna do with it? They wanna share it. They wanna do it. When it's a negative thing and you forced on them, they wanna get rid of it.

• 1:26:45Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. I'm glad that this person's in the game and now they know how to handle this coworker and make it into a good situation.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Think we got time for one more?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Last question. Jaco, hey Jaco, how do you implement change when you know it is needed?

• 1:27:11Jocko Willink?

  How do you implement change when you know it is needed? Well,

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  when I know I need to change something,

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  what I do is I change it.

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  That's what I do. I change it.

• 1:27:31Jocko Willink?

  And I've had people that listen to the podcast and they've reached out to me over the past few years. And one of the main messages that they took

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  and put into action was actually putting things into action. Whatever that was, they, they stopped eating sugar. They stopped sleeping in. They, they started waking up early. They, they quit playing video games for 10 or 12 or 14 hours a day. They sold that Xbox thing.

• 1:28:10Jocko Willink?

  There was a guy that bit his nails for his whole life and he's in his like 30s. Eh, well, whatever. No big deals, right? You know, he bit his nails. Oh, you know what? His nails are all chewed up and they're bloody and they're gross looking and he's self-conscious when he's meeting people and shaking hands. And he can't keep his hands away from his mouth while he's in meetings or in, in interacting with people.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  But he couldn't stop.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  And then he stopped. He just stopped and the list goes on. There's people that have quit drinking and quit doing drugs and quit losing their temper. And I've heard from so many different people that have implemented change in their lives. So, so many letters and messages and notes. And I, I want you to know that these people aren't a bunch of, of elite special operations warriors. That's not who, who they are. They aren't a bunch of high level athletes or highly screened and highly trained individuals.

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  These are just, just normal people, really.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  But they're normal people that knew they needed to make a change. And they decided they were going to make a change and then they made it.

• 1:29:42Jocko Willink?

  And that is what I do. And that is what you can do too. If you have something to change, if you want to change something, change it.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  Change it now.

• 1:30:10Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight. So Echo, speaking of implementing change and

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  change in our lives to become a little bit better, maybe you could help us with some things that can make us a little bit better. Sure. First, what's up with Mikey and the Dragons? Mikey and the Dragons, yes. So Mikey and the Dragons is released into the world. Now, okay, so speaking of ownership, and I know the, one of the earlier questions was about ownership and I have to take ownership myself at this time because I made a mistake.

• 1:30:57Jocko Willink?

  I made a mistake and just as I, as you pointed out,

• 1:31:02Jocko Willink?

  as I've talked about my publisher not ordering enough books and how, hey, they don't order enough books, they don't get it. Well, guess what? I didn't order enough books. So I am getting them printed right now. I'm getting them printed as fast as humanly possible.

• 1:31:23Jocko Willink?

  We have multiple printers working and if you order early, you're likely going to get yours on the release date. And I know some people have been posting their Amazon images that their Mikey and the Dragons is shipping. So some people are going to get it soon. But even that's not a guarantee at this point, even if you ordered early, I apologize. Don't blame Amazon. It's not their fault. Don't blame FedEx and don't blame the post office and don't blame UPS. It's not their fault. If you don't get the book on time, it is one person's fault and that is mine. I should have done a much better job of estimating how many books you all were gonna buy. And I guess as soon as I saw people that were ordering

• 1:32:07Jocko Willink?

  12 books, 12 Mikey and the Dragons, that should have been a real indicator that I that I should have gotten more printed. But I didn't do that. I apologize. You guys have ordered a ton and so at this point, I have a ton more being printed. My goal is to get them to you by Christmas. It should be possible. If you order now, we've got enough coming in. They should be there to get in the stockings for Christmas. If if you've already ordered, so if you've ordered though, be patient. If you haven't ordered yet, order like right now so that I can

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  print more. And like I said, right now, we should have enough. If you order right now, you you should be able to get it by Christmas.

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you want it, yeah, just order it and I'll just get as many printed as we need. I apologize. It's it's definitely my fault. I was weak. I was You weren't weak. No, it was I used to call it weak. And then you'd be like, they're just being conservative. So I was too conservative. I balanced it too much in the wrong direction. And so order the book. And I appreciate of the few people that I've sent a copy to, the feedback has been awesome. The book in In the words of John Bozak, who did the drawing and did the art, and you're gonna see, he's the same guy that did the art for Way the Warrior Kid.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  This art is a totally different deal, cuz it's beautiful, it's color, it's Vibrant. Vibrant. Yeah, he did an amazing job. And you know what? He says, like, he's, you know, he said to me, he's like, you know, people say things and they say it in a certain way. Yeah. He did that. He just goes, "This book is special." And I was like, you know, the way he said it was like, I was like, and I feel that way, but you know, of course, I'm biased because I wrote it. Right. Right? But when, when he drew it, so he's biased too, but he didn't say it like, "Hey, this book is awesome," normal voice. Right. He was like, he was like, "Hey, this book is, this book is really special."

• 1:34:24Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, okay, so,

• 1:34:27Jocko Willink?

  I think this book is gonna be on every kid's bookshelf. I think it's gonna be right next to their copy of Where the Wild Things Are. That's what I think, which was, you know, one of all of our favorite book when you're a kid. And I know that's a bold statement, but anyways, I think it's gonna have a great impact on kids. So if you want a copy for your kids, for your neighbor kids, for your library, your school, whatever, classrooms, for yourself,

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  for yourself, yes, if you're 38 years old. Yeah, sure. And you wanna learn a little something about the world, about overcoming fear, about how to face things, and you wanna have it put in such a clear way, then get yourself a copy. So, right? Echo? Agree. And you've read it, I mean, obviously. Yes, sir, I have. And you've read it to your youngsters? Yes, I have. And they're approve? Approved. Yeah. She wants me to read it again. Well, this one, this is a book that takes 20 minutes to read. Yeah. Maybe 20, maybe, yeah, around 20 minutes to read. Yeah. So, it rhymes. Yeah. Which is, is fun. Yes.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  And impactful, and little kids, they love it when those things rhyme. Yeah, yeah, it's like fun. Yeah. They follow it. So, there you go. If you want one, again, I apologize if you're not, if you don't get it on the 15th of November, my goal is to, at a minimum, some of you are gonna get it on the 50th. If you order it early, hopefully you'll get it by then, but my goal, let's get it to you by Christmas. I've got publishers all over, or printers all over. Printing it. So, thank you. And that's that. Mikey and the Dragons. Order it quick. Uh, what else Echo? What else do we need?

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  How else can we, can we implement change in our life?

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, a lot of jujitsu talk today. Once you know the way broadly, you will. In fact.

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  See it in all things.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  So, when you are exploring the road of jujitsu, you're gonna need a gi.

• 1:36:29Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Even if you do just no gi, well, if you don't, if you only do no gi, then I guess you don't need a gi. But, when you are searching for a gi, get an Origin gi. That's it, 100%.

• 1:36:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Um, go to originmaine.com. That's where you get it. Rash guards on there as well. All made in America. Woven.

• 1:36:48Jocko Willink?

  In America.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  In America.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Cotton.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  All the cotton.

• 1:36:51Jocko Willink?

  Grown.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Grown in America.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  In America. Woven in America. By the way, it's not just cotton.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:57Jocko Willink?

  It's a special blend.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and a special weave, by the way.

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  A special weave. How cool is that weave? Like, like, no kidding. When you see dragon weave for the first time?

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  Are you not like a little bit?

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  A little bit what? Impressed? I'm a lot of bit impressed. So, and here's the thing too, when you, when you've kind of been in the game for a long time, let's say.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  You're not easily impressed by geese.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no, yeah, no. Not, not, generally speaking, no. But, you do pay attention, like, you know, when you grab a gi, your own gi, you're real used to your own gi. If you have two geese, three geese, four geese, and they're all kind of different weaves, you know those, right? So, when you see someone else with a gi, you grab it, you're like, okay, you know, I'm familiar, whatever. Cool. But, when you grab the dragon weave for the first time, especially when you've been in the game for a while, you're like, ooh, this one is different. I like that.

• 1:37:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I've definitely had a couple of people that only got into jujitsu, like, they've only, Dave Burke.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Good dude.

• 1:37:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. He's only had Origin geese. That's it.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  He's spoiled.

• 1:37:51Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't even know what, all these other stories about bad geese, he doesn't even understand them.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Stories.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, oh, they just, they, they're stink, and they're heavy, and all they rip, and all that stuff. He doesn't know any better than me that. He's just like, oh, everything is awesome.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, in a way, I mean, I kind of want to say, hey, dang, that's good for him. He's lucky in that way. But. You know, hey, that's part of the game. It's part of the journey.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, whether you used to it or not used to it, Dragon Weave is legit. Are we allowed to talk about that new weave that we were exploring the other day at your house?

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, not yet.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  But we do have.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  We're gonna keep our beaks buttoned on that one.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Don't forget about rash guards, though.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yes, of course. So when you're doing no gi, some people they use the t-shirt. I dig it. Some people they use the dry fit. I dig it. To me, rash guard is the way to go. This is why. Because other people's toes, sometimes, not all the time, could get caught in that shirt when it's flapping around in the wind. But, and you know, hey, you know, it's a rash guard. It's cool. It looks more uniformy.

• 1:38:52Jocko Willink?

  What about the scientific compression increased vascular, you know, I'm just kidding.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, hey, man, I'm sure there is that.

• 1:39:01Jocko Willink?

  There is that. Like, oh, when you, when you wear the rash guard.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Jocko Willink?

  When you wear the compression clothing.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like helps with endurance or something like, and that's cool.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm not over here making those claims.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Jocko Willink?

  I am making this claim. Nineteen percent improvement when you wear the rash guard. Based on your whole mental state.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Yes, agree.

• 1:39:21Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And not to mention, speaking of mental state, on those days that you don't want to train, get a new rash guard. Those days.

• 1:39:30Jocko Willink?

  They don't exist anymore.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  They don't exist anymore.

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  At least for four months.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:34Jocko Willink?

  Then you need another new rash guard.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, give or take. It's true. So, yeah, cool, the compression. Cool. Cool.

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Pete was actually starting to go into it with me. Hey, man, I could tell you. I'm like, well, cool, man, let me go call you back.

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  We just go nineteen percent improvement based on mental state.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  Getting after it harder.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Yes, agree. So, yeah, some good rash guards on there. Also, some, uh, how should I say? Lounge gear. Actually, I shouldn't say lounge gear. That violates your whole thing.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  That violates everything. Lounge.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 1:40:05Jocko Willink?

  That's still luxury. You can call them luxury items. We'll get Theo Vaughn here to talk about luxury.

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  Oh, just the concept of luxury.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Luxury.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:13Jocko Willink?

  Luxury days.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Well, the sweats that they have are luxury. And here's the thing, unprompted, I go on Twitter and, you know, you get like people when they get their stuff, they're like, hey, you know, you take a picture of your stuff. It's normal. So a guy will have a hoodie and he'll say, this is the softest hoodie I ever had. Straight up.

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  That's the, that is the fact.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That is the fact. And then there's, I didn't understand this, joggers.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  I didn't understand why they're called joggers and what their purpose is. Old school sweatpants. They're just, there's like an elastic, they're like straight cut, then there's an elastic thing around the bottom and they're just all baggy.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  The purpose apparently, did you tell me this, that joggers are cut tighter and then they have like a tighter ankle so you can actually jog in them, that's the purpose?

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the.

• 1:41:05Jocko Willink?

  I didn't know that. I had no idea.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when you jog, they don't flap around in the wind, though it's not just ankle, it's the whole leg. So the whole leg kinda adheres to your, i- it's more like fitted to your leg and then they're more roomy in the hips so you can have a, you know, you can sprint, you can jog, you can run, see what I'm saying? They just so happen and that mobility that it allows for running translates hundred and ten percent to just cruising. When you're laying down on the, I'm telling you, hundred percent. Take it from me, I know.

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  There's uh some supplements on there too. We got some, we, we got some supplements as a matter of fact.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  Joint Warfare. Number one best seller. Joint Warfare.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  I see why.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uh Krill Oil.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, what? Okay, so a lot of people ask this too and you told, okay, the difference, you know how the people, so a guy would be like, hey, I, I work a physical job. Eight hours, ten hours a day, I wanna do workout or whatever, my joints take kind of a beating. What should I take? Joint Warfare or Krill Oil? So people, they will wonder about that, which one should I take? Cause they're both for your joint.

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the, the straight up answer is yes, take both of them. You should absolutely take both of them if you can only get one. If you, I would say if you're just, if you're just feeling, um, what's the word? Like if you have like legitimate soreness, real legit soreness, I would go with Joint Warfare. But I like Krill, and I've, the thing is, I've taken the, these things for so long together that I just, I don't know, it's hard for me to answer that.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Well, Brian would tell me that uh Krill Oil is for just general, you know, maintenance, you know, you're getting, let's face it, you're getting older. And, you know, you gotta maintain.

• 1:42:53Jocko Willink?

  That's why I'm not getting older.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably not.

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  Get the krill oil together.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  And yeah, like how you were saying, you know, you, you, your joints take a beating, like an actual beating, where they kind of hurt now, then yeah, joint warfare, because it helps inflammation. Well, actually, the krill oil takes.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  I got fired, I got fired up today. I did my workout. I threw on the weight vest.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:14Jocko Willink?

  And I just, I just pretended like I didn't have it on, but I had it on for my workout.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Probably, you know, that helps, you know, like that, that mental state to be like, so it's a difference between like, like, this, you can lift in these different ways too. But yeah, when you put weights on you, just like, you know, some people, they'll swing a baseball bat or something, they'll put a weight on there or something like that. And mentally, if you, basically you're training your functionality with that, and that resistance sort of just happens to be there. So your brain just kind of accommodates, you know, so when you function without the weight, you're just flying around. It's like easy. It's like, I weigh less now, you know, rather than, oh, I'm gonna just eke out 10 reps of this very specific thing. Then you're training your body.

• 1:43:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I kind of did this, I kind of did this little like a mental debate, like, oh, well, you know, I feel like I should, I should do something a little bit more. Oh, maybe I'll do some rounds with this and then I'll take it. And I was like, no, I'm just gonna do the whole thing. Like I just, and I did every exercise, even just completely unrelated exercises with, with a weight vest on.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that's good. I was doing box jumps the other day, which I actually don't do that much, but like, I did, and I was like, man, I think.

• 1:44:14Jocko Willink?

  Here's the warning on box jumps. Pay attention during box jumps.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:17Jocko Willink?

  It's real easy, especially when you get, when you get smoked and you start just kind of, you're just going through the motions and that's when you miss.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:24Jocko Willink?

  And when you miss a box jump, you get that shiner.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  No fun. Yeah.

• 1:44:27Jocko Willink?

  You don't want none of that.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and yes, and that's what I was thinking too. I was like, man, when I, because I, you know, this is part of the metcon, I was going back and forth, I was doing, it's a long thing, but boxing was part of it. And yes, towards those later rounds, I was like, okay, I better focus. Good. Yeah. And I was doing, I was adding a little something, you know, when you, when you jumped down, I went down into like a little squat and did the jump, so I'm saying, so it's not just the boxing, it's like down squat. Anyway, but yes, and made me think like, I could get a weight vest and really maximize these box jumps.

• 1:44:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pay attention.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  Pay attention, though.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Take some discipline beforehand too, by the way, which is a little pre-mission, get some. And then, if you need food. If you need nutrients for your body and for your mind, then take milk. Yeah.

• 1:45:20Jocko Willink?

  Milk tastes delicious. You know what I did yesterday? What? I took whipping cream. Heavy whipping cream. Heavy whipping cream that you turn into whipped cream. Yeah. But normally what you put in it, you know how to make whipped cream? Yes. What do you do? Whip it super hard. What else do you have to do? Add an egg white in it? No. No, no. You got to add sugar. Oh, okay. So recently, I read this thing that one of the whipped cream companies came out with like Reese's Peanut Butter whipped cream. Okay. And some other kind of whipped cream. So you get it in a spray can. Yeah. You press the little nozzle. Boom. Yeah.

• 1:46:00Jocko Willink?

  You got Reese's Peanut Butter flavored whipped cream. And I thought to myself, yup, that sounds good. Boy. That's the freedom part. So guess what I did? I took heavy whipping cream that you make whipped cream with and I put peanut butter milk in it. And I whipped it. And guess what? Voila.

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  It is good to go. People like creating things, I guess. Tastiness. Yeah. Tastiness. So, yeah. And all of them taste great. All of them are awesome for you. And we got mint peanut butter. We have mint chocolate, peanut butter chocolate, vanilla gorilla.

• 1:46:41Jocko Willink?

  And of course, the darkness chocolate. And then Warrior Kid, Warrior Kid milk. Of which, look, they both taste delicious. As a matter of fact, my son today, because it was getting cold, and I hate saying that. Because we're in California. Yeah. And cold is not cold. So everyone in Michigan, everyone, Pete, the crew up in Maine, I apologize. Because it was getting cold this morning, which meant it was probably like fifty-four. Yeah. Right? Which out here in California, in Southern California, it's like, oh, it was cold this morning. So anyways, it was a little chilly this morning, a little nip in the air. Of course, we're only wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So in Maine, I know Pete's up there wearing a parka. But my son, he was jumping on his bike to go check the waves.

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  And um, he had a little, he had a little like a coffee uh tumbler, one of our tumblers. And he doesn't drink coffee, and I was kinda like, what are you doing? He goes, I made some hot cocoa milk.

• 1:47:39Jocko Willink?

  And I said, let me try it.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  With the warrior kid one?

• 1:47:41Jocko Willink?

  The warrior kid chocolate.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  It's just delicious. It's just amazing.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  It's like hot cocoa.

• 1:47:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's hot cocoa. Except for guess what? It's good for you and makes you strong.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  What's up with that?

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 1:47:52Jocko Willink?

  What's up with that? So, yeah, that's the milk. Anyways, strawberry is delicious. It's get it for your kids. It's in my house, it seems to be the only thing anyone in my house is eating right now. So, give that a shot and enjoy it.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  You're gonna be mad, I think you might be mad. What's a parka?

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  A parka is just a coat. It's a big winter coat, yeah. Yeah, you ever seen the coat that has like a fur around the hood?

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:15Jocko Willink?

  That's sort of like the quintessential parka.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Dang, I think those things are kinda dope. The word parka is kinda, kinda iffy.

• 1:48:23Jocko Willink?

  What are you talking about?

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  I don't know, I've never heard the word. I'm saying, coming in fresh, you're used, you're used to it.

• 1:48:28Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you're from Hawaii, how you gonna know what a parka is?

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  I understand it.

• 1:48:31Jocko Willink?

  Did you not even see snow until like three weeks ago or something?

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  No, for real, you didn't see snow until you were thirty, right?

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Well, technically, I saw snow on the big island when I was a little kid, one time.

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  And you go to the big island, you go up in Amaneka, and you can see snow. We went up there with shorts and a tank top, by the way. We just drove up there. But since then, yes, I had not seen snow until I was thirty, yes.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you, there's no possible way you're gonna know what a parka is, bro.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so which kinda is part of my point, where if you've never really, I mean, I've heard the word parka, but I'm not used to what a parka kinda entails and the, and what the goodness of that. So, I'm just left with the word parka. And a parka is, as far as just the word, doesn't seem like, uh, I don't know, seems like a funny word.

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  Huh. Well, put some context around it. Freezing cold people, give them a parka.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Nice, solid, warm, functional parka.

• 1:49:24Jocko Willink?

  Be able to live.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep, I, man, I dig it. See, uh, growing, you know, growth. We call that grow, I'm growing here, trying to. Speaking of growth, you wanna stay on the path and represent at the same time, grow in that way. Go to JacoStore.com, that's right, Jaco is a store. It's where you can get your Discipline Equals Freedom shirts. Women, tank tops, by the way.

• 1:49:47Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Work out.

• 1:49:48Jocko Willink?

  Men tank tops?

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Men's tank tops. I know the temperature is dropping. I'm not gonna say it's cold here in California. I'm not gonna say that. The temperature is lowering, you know? So I dig it if you're not gonna wear the tank top all the time. I dig it. But, they're on there nonetheless. Uh, some hoodies.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Either they're out now, or they will be within one week from right now.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  T-shirts?

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  T-shirts.

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  How about that Defqor t-shirt?

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Defqor t-shirt.

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, damn.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  See, you're representing the Defqor t-shirt right now.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  That's good, cuz it's, hey, I talked about, like, for me, to make a statement with what you're wearing is kind of just a little bit. I don't like that.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 1:50:30Jocko Willink?

  I'm not dressing to make a statement, is my, is my point.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  I don't think, oh, I'm not dressing to make a statement. I wear, the functionality is primary.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  So, I don't know, I thought this shirt is functional.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Right, it is functional.

• 1:50:43Jocko Willink?

  And it makes a subtle statement, I must admit.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  Well, even not making a statement is making a statement. It's kinda like Bruce Lee.

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, well, no. If you try too hard to not make a statement, then that's just,

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:53Jocko Willink?

  Then you're, you're defeating it. Yeah, defeating the purpose. That's why this, this shirt, subtle, statement made, mostly to yourself. Not a statement to the world, cuz people just look at this and would not even think twice about it. Maybe they'd think one more time about it, think, what is that?

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, if you're watching this on YouTube, they're gonna notice that you're not wearing the victory, and that's gonna be a huge statement, and that's gonna actually maybe even throw some people for a little loop. And, you know. Nonetheless, yes, all on jocko store dot com. Some cool rash guards on there as well. Some get out a little bit more, how should I say, geared towards the specific path of getting after it.

• 1:51:32Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's technically one that literally says, get after it. So I guess that's point, on point.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, hey, subscribe to the podcast if you don't. iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher. Leave reviews so that we can read them and get a good laugh from the crazy things that you say. Thank you. Also, the Warrior Kid Podcast, we just put out a new one. I apologize that they come a little bit further apart than these. Uh, I've gotten many people that have said they have been listening to the first eighteen Warrior Kid podcasts over and over and over again. So, I'm glad that they're learning lessons and I appreciate the feedback on those. Also, you go, don't forget your Warrior Kid Soap from IrishOaksRanch.com. Young by, made by Young Warrior Kid Aiden, who's making Jaco's soap.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  And his advice, which I totally agree with, is get some soap so you can stay clean.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  Dig it.

• 1:52:30Jocko Willink?

  Youtube, don't forget about Youtube, uh, subscribe to the Youtube channel so you can see Echo's legit videos. You can see, if we have guests on, you can see who they are, what they look like, how they react, all that stuff. You can get a feel for, you can get to see what, if you don't know what Echo looks like, he doesn't look like what he sounds like, so we've been told.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:52Jocko Willink?

  So you can see what Echo looks like. And then you can put a comment that says, it can say, for instance, "Echo looking jacked."

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Or, "Damn, Echo's yoked." Or whatever. So there's a lot of those comments that make it on there and I know that, that, that's basically the form of compensation that Echo gets for his work. Is people telling, people in Youtube comments saying Echo's got jacked guns. So, if you wanna, if you want to pay Echo Charles, if you wanna pay Echo Charles, there's no Patreon account. There's no GoFundMe, you just go onto Youtube comments and you write, "Echo looking jacked, boy."

• 1:53:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so there you go.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  Clever, clever, clever. Also, psychological warfare.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  That's an album with tracks that we made, Jaco talking, by the way, telling you how to get past, through, get through, power through those moments of weakness when they arise, which they do sometimes, by the way. I know you don't know this, actually you do know this, but they do arise. But if Jaco's there telling you how to get through it, pragmatically, by the way, you'll get through it. I found that to be a fact, hundred percent of the time.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Also, while you're doing your workout and it gets boring, go to onnit.com slash Jaco, by the way, and get new kettlebells. So what I did, totally revives your whole workout. In fact, do this, do your normal workout. If in fact it doesn't have kettlebells in the workout, do your normal workout and do a kettlebell workout. Like maybe like a five or 10 minute one.

• 1:54:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my son was asking me about working out. And he was kind of like, oh, I just want to get like.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  The what? Big muscles?

• 1:54:41Jocko Willink?

  Just, just get strong. And so I, and he can do the, or has done the kettlebell snatch. But I was like, up the weight a little bit and throw that thing up there. And it, I go every time you have to stop that thing in the top position. It's your whole body has to kind of put some effort into it. You will have, if you haven't done it before, and you go a little bit heavier than like what you, which I don't, you know, be careful, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Okay. So if you go a little bit heavier, you will have like sore abs the next day. Your abs will be sore. So your posterior chain?

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:55:15Jocko Willink?

  Will be.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Bruh, that's a real thing.

• 1:55:17Jocko Willink?

  Get some work.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Why are you gonna say it like that?

• 1:55:18Jocko Willink?

  I know, it's supposed to, your posterior chain, because there's people like, what do you want to do? No, so your posterior chain will be, uh, get work. But believe it or not, your front.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Anterior.

• 1:55:29Jocko Willink?

  Your anterior chain will get work too, because it has to arrest.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:34Jocko Willink?

  That weight, which is flying up there and then it has to stop. Otherwise it rips your shoulder out, which is why you should be careful. Don't go too heavy.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  Bruh, it's, and so my, you know, my bicep is, is healing. It's almost there, man. We're almost there. But one of the things I could straight up not even start doing until very recently is kettlebells on that side. You know, because it flaps around and like it twists it, twists your wrists in this way that it really, it puts. So even when I go on a light one, and it's weird because the pain is less there, more so than just kind of the raw newness of my arm going through that whole kettlebell procedure. See what I'm saying? So like, you know, when the thing comes up to arrest right here on your wrist? Just it's sitting there on your wrist. It has to rest there on your wrist. Your wrist is twisted in a certain way, you know? It's cool. It's normal if you don't.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  But man, it's weird the difference of my right hand, my good hand and my bad hand. Just the thing resting on the thing is like, oh, you know, like you have a.

• 1:56:30Jocko Willink?

  So you lack the conditioning.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:33Jocko Willink?

  Conditioning is faded.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Just in your little.

• 1:56:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, just the pressure.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  And the, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:37Jocko Willink?

  The toughness.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  The toughness of my whole thing.

• 1:56:39Jocko Willink?

  I felt that the other day when we were rolling.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  What? Oh, that my toughness.

• 1:56:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just like a dissension of toughness.

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I didn't. See, I was, I was just, I was, I was taking it light, you know, see what I'm saying?

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  You're really, you're really happy with that, aren't you?

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying. Hey, don't forget about Jocka White Tea. It is certified as the only beverage, whether you get it in the can or you get it in the bag and you steep it yourself. Either way, it is the only beverage in the world that comes with a 100% money back guarantee of an 8,000 pound deadlift.

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:57:16Jocko Willink?

  Which is really good.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  And it's organic, by the way.

• 1:57:19Jocko Willink?

  And it's organic on top of that. Something so tasty and as the winter arrives and it gets really cold. Out here in California, sorry, my people of the north. Uh, get that warm tea going. Just put a couple of bags in. Now, some people worry about how long you should steep. Do you know what steep the tea means?

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  I do know, yeah.

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah. So how long should you steep the tea? In my opinion, when I put a tea bag in, it's not coming out.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Oh, straight up.

• 1:57:48Jocko Willink?

  I just leave it in there. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna leave it in there. It's, it's good to go to drink and you know, like a couple, like a minute or maybe two minutes. But then I'm not taking that tea bag. I'm gonna get all that, all that Jocka White Tea, all that pomegranate goodness, all that. All, all those antioxidants are coming right into my system.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Solid, bro.

• 1:58:06Jocko Willink?

  And it tastes delicious and it does have caffeine in it, I will say. So the cans have 60 milligrams. Depending on how long you steep. And I think when you steep it like I do, there's probably a little bit extra, a little bit of extra. Get some.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:58:24Jocko Willink?

  Inside there.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  Steep it forever.

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  Also got some books. Okay, Way of the Warrior Kid. And Mark's Mission. Those are two kids books. But I promise you that Uncle Jake has lessons for. Everyone.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, agree. And I'm one of those people. And so I think when you read that to your kids, oh, well, in my case, because my daughter's five, can't quite read a book yet. So I'll read it, but I feel like I'm reading to myself, too. Like, these are all things that I. Some that you forget. I think as an adult, you forget a lot of these lessons. You know, because now you have a routine. As an adult, you have a routine. Some of these lessons. It feels like they don't apply at first, you know? So you kind of forget them and go, man, I wish I could just incorporate that little thing.

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  One of, one of the fundamental laws of combat is simple.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  And Way of the Warrior Kid is the, it's the life rules. Put forth in a very simple way that a young child could understand them. But what's surprising is in that simplicity, it hits. Anyone.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:29Jocko Willink?

  Solidly.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:30Jocko Willink?

  Right between. The eyes.

• 1:59:34Jocko Willink?

  So that's Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. You can get those. Also got the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  That's another one that if you, if you re, or if you refer to, it'll like remind you. Because like, okay, so, man, I, I don't meditate. I don't. Like, you know, like, for, like. Okay, it's arguable. Who would do Jiu-Jitsu meditation? It's not, it's not, it's not meditation. You know what they're talking about when you say de-meditate? So.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  From what I understand. If you meditate on certain things, they help like incorporate it into your, you know, your whole normal thought process.

• 2:00:09Jocko Willink?

  Meditate on this heel hook over here.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  That's what I would start with, by the way. But, and then you would need, and this is just my, my thought about meditation. You would need less reminders of certain things, you know? Like, how to, like, detach is, for whatever reason, when I understood the, the, the concept of detach and the importance of it, that's, that's to me, just kind of established itself as like. Pretty, one of the most important. Things that you can roll into your life that'll improve it right away.

• 2:00:40Jocko Willink?

  It definitely will.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  Right then and there. But here's the thing, just like how you said. You gotta notice when you gotta detach, you know, it's not detaching isn't the hard part. It's to notice, you know, like when it's time to go and so for lack of a better term, you're forgetting to detach right now because you're so distracted by all you feel or whatever. So it's one of the, so the field manual is like a really good one. So like, man, if you can refer to that boom, and this goes for all the subjects in there. By the way, like, so like every day, even every other day, two, three days, whatever, just refer back to it, man, it helps, it keeps it on your mind, all these things.

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Totally does.

• 2:01:13Jocko Willink?

  People post pictures of the field manual.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:17Jocko Willink?

  Like one, like one page or two pages of it. And when I, whenever I, when someone posts a picture of that, I actually read, I wrote the book, but I still read this section and say like, and, and it, and I don't read it and go, oh, I remember writing that. I actually go, I can do that better.

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:32Jocko Willink?

  I want to do that. I need to focus. You know what I mean?

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  So. And here's a good thing about that where overwhelmed, right? That was one that, uh, I, I don't even know who posted it first, but it was like, Echelon Front posted it and like.

• 2:01:45Jocko Willink?

  JP maybe.

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  JP, yeah.

• 2:01:46Jocko Willink?

  Andy, Andy reposted it.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was one where it's like, you know why they're, you know why people are posting that? Because when they read it, when they go, they refer to it, they're like, oh, it clicked again. Let me, you know, because that's kind of the whole nature of posting things. So the boom, that's exactly what's happening. So it's like, boom, I need to remember that one. It's not like that's the first time they read it. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but most of the time it's like, okay, I referred back to that. And they're going to repost it. So it's doing exactly what I'm saying. It's reminding you like overwhelmed, overwhelmed. And the, you know, certain ones apply to you at certain times too, you know? So it's like, good, man, just to refer back to that. That's what I do.

• 2:02:20Jocko Willink?

  It will keep you on the path. If you want the audio version, it's not available on audible.com. It's available on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play and other MP3 platforms. Also extreme ownership. I already talked about extreme ownership and the leadership principles that are in that. And I talk about them all the time and explain them to people in every different type of organization. That's what everyone at Echelon Front does, which is our leadership consulting business, which is me and Leif Babin and JP Donnell and Dave Burke and Flynn Cochran and Mike Shirelli and Mike Byma. That's what we do. We talk about the fundamental principles that are in that book that we brought

• 2:03:01Jocko Willink?

  home from the battlefield. And that book, Extreme Ownership, after we got done writing that book and taught that stuff, we wrote another book. It's called The Dichotomy of Leadership, which we also talked about a bunch today. Because you can't talk about, you can't talk about leading human beings without talking about Extreme Ownership, the fundamental principles of the laws of combat. And, and then when you start talking about that, you've got to talk about the dichotomy of leadership. So those two books are also available. And what I like seeing is when, like I just saw one today, guy had probably posted a picture of 30 copies of The Dichotomy of Leadership. He's like, this is going to the whole team.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  Because that's how you get everyone aligned. You make everyone see, oh, you know what? I'm going to think of this way. Now, some people go, oh, I don't want to share the secrets. They want to keep it for themselves. That doesn't help you. You don't do better. You do better if you, if everyone understands the principles. That's going to make you do better as the leader. And by the way, if you're out there trying to do better for yourself, don't read the book. Go and do something else because I don't even want you around.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Oh, just for yourself.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  If you're just trying to look out for you, the principles aren't for you. You won't understand them properly. So, and yet, if you want to win, the best possible way to win, by the way, isn't by looking out for yourself. It's by looking out for the good of the team. It's by looking out for the mission. That's how you win. And that's what these books will help you do. So, there's those, Echelon Front, I already talked about it, Leadership Consultancy. If you want us to come and work with your company, or come and speak to your company, go to echelonfront.com. Don't contact the Speakers Bureau. Don't Google Jaco Speaking, because it'll be a random speaking agent that you'll then have to work

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  through. Just contact us, our company, echelonfront.com.

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  The muster, we have muster seven and eight in 2019. Check extreme ownership.com. Those are our leadership conferences and all of them have sold out. Did I say some of them have sold out? Nope. All of them have sold out. And they are all going to continue to sell out. So look for the details, when the opportunity, when, when we put the details out and you want to come, sign up. That's extreme ownership.com and then Overwatch is our business where we are taking special operations leaders, combat aviation leaders and placing them into civilian organizations

• 2:05:49Jocko Willink?

  that need leadership, experienced and trained leadership. So if you want to get involved with that, whichever side you're on, EFoverwatch.com. Go there and you'll figure out which way to go, whether you're someone from our communities or you're someone that needs leaders from our communities, go and make that happen. And if you want to stay on the path with us, we are available on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram and on that. Ha, Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and thanks to all the military personnel

• 2:06:32Jocko Willink?

  worldwide, worldwide out there in harm's way, holding the line. And here at home, thanks to police and law enforcement and paramedics and EMTs and correctional officers and border patrol and first responders. And at this moment, actually especially the firefighters out here fighting these crazy and powerful fires in California. Thanks to you all. I know there's a lot of police and EMTs and paramedics supporting them as well. Just all of you, thanks for risking your lives to make us safer. And to the rest of you that are out there carrying on your mission,

• 2:07:13Jocko Willink?

  whatever that may be, but if you're listening, I know you're in the game and trying to get better just like we are. And if there's a change that you need to make in your life, you know what you need to do.

• 2:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Get after it and make that change. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.