131: How To Win With People You Don't Like. How to Not Get Interrupted. The Exception to--No Bad Teams, Only Bad Leaders.

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:00:16 - How to never get interrupted. 0:09:11 - Shouldn't your superiors take Extreme Ownership? 0:17:49 - Getting past plateaus in Jiu Jitsu. 0:23:31 - The Exception to "There are no bad teams, only bad leaders." 0:38:11 - How to win with people you don't like. 1:00:51 - How to get back into the swing of things after tragedy. 1:06:48 - Excerpt from Anthony Bourdain's book. 1:14:00 - Support. 1:46:51 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 131 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  It is time for some Q and A.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  Should we banter around for a while or should we just get started?

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Question number one.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  I've been somewhat of a pushover for the majority of my life. Since listening to the podcast, I've been trying to assert myself more. One thing I can't seem to shake is constantly being interrupted.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  How can I rise above and overcome this obstacle? Should I read the hashtag?

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  The hashtag fellow hardcore kids. There you go. And there's a little layer in there because you put rise above in there. So, you know, I, so I thought about this because

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  I would say I don't get interrupted a lot.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  But I don't, I think that's kind of the current state of me. And I think there's a reason why I don't get interrupted a lot. And it's not because, you know, people are going to think, oh, well, that's because you're going to bash people in the head with a club. That's not the actual answer of why I don't get interrupted.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  So, one thing I think is important is you've heard me say this before, the less people talk, the more people listen. So when I'm in a group of people that all want to talk and they all want to talk over each other and they want to cut each other off. You get in that group right there, I, I don't talk. I don't talk. I let there, I sit there, I listen to them and I plot.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  Then I think and I put together my thoughts correctly. So that when I do decide to say something, it's going to have impact.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  And then I wait for the right moment, right? Because if there's people that are bickering back and forth, I wait for a lull in the fire.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  And when that lull comes, then I make my point in a very direct manner. I might even, I might even have to wait until the conversation is like all but over. Wait till they're done with their little firefight. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  And then I'm gonna talk. They're done. And, and what, I, when I talk, you know, I'm gonna do it. Since I've been thinking about it, it's gonna be articulated in a way that I can present my full point. And I, so I think that's an effective way to do things. I think, I think if you let people speak a bunch, you let them get it out of their system, and then when you decide to talk, they don't have anything left to say. So that's a way to stop getting cut off. So this is almost like flanking, right? This is flanking the fact that when people have a bunch to say, and they got all these thoughts in their head, and they wanna get them all out, let them get them out. Don't try and fight that battle. They've got a bunch of things they wanna say, let them say it. Also, as we know, when you listen to someone else talk, it, you, you now know what their ideas are.

• 3:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You, you know what they're thinking. There's a power in not saying anything because it allows you to think, and it allows you to hear what other people think, and it allows you to hear other people. So in a conversation, you get to hear other people's counters to what people are saying. And you're not, you're not having to expend any ammunition yourself. Someone else is doing it. You know, the, the third or fourth or fifth piece, person in the conversation that's expending ammunition and running their mouth to try and saw, counter some point that someone's made? Let them do that. Cause by the way, then you get to see what the other counter is. So I think being assertive doesn't mean talking more. I think being assertive means talking less, talking at the appropriate times,

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  monitoring and understanding the firefight that's happening so that when other people have expended their ammunition, you can step in and you can take your shots in a simple, clear, concise manner.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  That's what I think.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're right. I think you built up this reputation, though. That's a little added element to your specific situation.

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  Which is what?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  When you talk it like you're not saying fluff, you know, you're, you know, when you talk, it's like something.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's a good point. So if you don't want to get cut off and seventy percent of the things that you say aren't really that impactful and don't add a lot to the conversation, well, then there's a good chance that when you open your mouth to start talking, someone else doesn't think it's going to be important. So they just jump right on top of you.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  But if you say less, and to your point, if the things that you say generally are well thought out and clear and are going to have impact, well, then we have a good chance that you're not going to be cut off because people actually want to hear what you're going to say.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:51Jocko Willink?

  Don't talk just to talk ever.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, and that's a hard.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  I shouldn't say ever, but hardly ever.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's a hard one because it, and it's not like people are interrupting you on purpose because you don't have nothing to say, you know, like you're just talking fluff. That's not, it's not a conscious on purpose thing. A lot of the time, I think, anyway. Doesn't feel like it is. Um, it feels like it's like subconscious, you know, like how can someone see fit to actually follow through with interrupting somebody if they don't think like, okay, this isn't quite that important. At the very least, at the very least, what I'm about to interrupt with is more important.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  So are you saying some people think that what they're about to say is really important?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  Here's another thing. It's like the little boy that cried wolf, right? If I, if I talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, I'm taking away the value of each one of those statements that I make because I'm making so many statements that not all of them can have a high level of value. So who do you?

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  Who do you pay more attention to? The person that makes a hundred statements?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  And what are those? Okay, let's say you want to pay attention to the person that makes a hundred statements. How much can you pay attention to those hundred statements? How much do you, how much do you gather from those hundred statements?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's a limited amount.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  It's one percent per statement, right? What's one percent? You have to, well, you think I makes a hundred statements? That's one percent per statement. If the person says one thing, how much percent do you pay attention to that?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  That's right, you said it, a hundred percent. So there you go.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense, dude.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  Check. Good luck with that fellow hardcore kid.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  So I guess he'd kind of have, I mean, assuming that, you know, we understand his situation, heart, um, overall. It's kind of like you have to build a reputation of saying only important things. That's a good way, way, place to start. Just be quiet.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  And not only like exactly, exactly what you said, that added thing, which you kind of actually may have already said, but when you sit back and just listen to them, it'll cause you to have to say less because what if you wanted to like, oh, I was gonna make this point? That's the feeling you get when you want to interrupt someone like, oh, I want to make this point right now, kind of thing. You will find out, you just let people talk, you don't have to make that point. They know this stuff already, you know, all the, and you'll find that's probably a lot of the time, you know, so you.

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if I step in to make a point that people already know, how impactful is that point? It's, it's of very limited impact. So the more points that you can hear, that you know, and that everyone knows, and that you don't have to say, the better off you are. So when you do make a point, and it's a point that no one really thought of, how impactful is that point?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  The answer is it's very impactful.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it comes way more clear that it might be a point than no one thought of after you listen to everyone talk for however long. Then it's like, oh, wait, this wasn't covered, so I can say this. I don't have to say all these other things that I was probably gonna end up with or whatever. Yeah, just be quiet, right?

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  Just be quiet.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And in social situations, for example?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  To me, and this is what I kinda started doing, or tried to start doing, in social situations, you know how like, okay, I listen to my wife and her friends talking, there it's just a boom boom, interrupting, it's not rude or nothing, it's just because they're just talking and yeah.

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  That's how they roll.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how they roll. And to the point where I'm getting like little mild micro doses of anxiety because of all the interruptions. Yeah, yeah, it's like a lot. They just talk a lot, that's what it is. Anyway. So, um, I found in social situations, if I feel that, like if I'm like trying to talk, or that I'm getting interrupted a lot, a lot. Man, in a way, they don't really care that much about what you have to say. They have more, like, they care more about what they have to say, and it's a social situation, so yeah, you might as well just be quiet. You're adding less value interrupting their valuable stuff, you know? So just be quiet. And you'll find that they'll want to talk to you more too, if you be quiet and not interrupt them. You might have to take some heavies on the interruption front though.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Because that is kinda annoying if you pay attention to it. That's what I think. I see what you're doing, Anna. Next question. I saw your TED Talk. I, like most people, have a boss. If it wasn't the fault of the guys below you, and there are people above you, shouldn't they take ownership? I.e. your commanding officer, and then in turn his? Why would ownership only drift halfway up?

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  So in an ideal world, ownership goes up and down the chain of command. Absolutely. And that is how problems get solved, because people take ownership of those problems throughout the chain of command. Now, does the world always work like that? No, it doesn't. And that's okay, that's fine, because as the boss of what you're the boss of, you can't make any excuses. That's the way it happens. And when an organization is taking ownership, when you've got a team where everyone is taking ownership on that team, there's absolutely overlap of everyone taking responsibility for the different problems. There'll be some overlap. Well, I could have done this to help out.

• 10:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, and I would have done this better. And now we both solved the same problem, but it's redundant, but good because now we got two people addressing the problem. So that's not a bad thing. So when people are taking ownership up and down the chain of command, the problems are getting not just, not just solved by one angle, but by multiple different angles of everyone that's taking ownership of that problem. When the blue on blue happened, that I talk about extreme ownership, that was in the TED Talk, and I talk about this, like my guys took ownership of what they did wrong as well. The guy that shot the Iraqi soldier, the radioman took ownership of the fact that he didn't pass a word quick enough. The element leader took ownership of the fact that the

• 10:48Jocko Willink?

  Iraqis had gotten away from him. They all owned their little pieces. And of course, I owned it as well. And when I took ownership of everything, it wasn't like those guys then said, oh, okay, well, then I'm absolved and I don't have to change anything. No, no, no, those guys still realized that they made some mistakes and some things that they needed to clean up. So I took ownership of the same thing. They were taking ownership and guess what? Then again, it was redundant that we were all trying to solve the problems. Now, this is the opposite. This doesn't happen. When you start blaming people, everyone makes excuses. That's just the way it works. So I think that that's what you have to think

• 11:28Jocko Willink?

  about. So, so like I said, ideally, when a leader takes ownership, so do the people up and down the chain of command. They also take ownership of the problems. And if they do, that's great. And the leader can then monitor what those people up and down the chain of command do to fix the problem. And if they fix the problems, then that's great. That's the way it works. And if they don't fix the problems, then that's when the leader has to own it up and down the chain of command and still be responsible and take ownership of fixing the problem. So.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  The other piece of this, I guess, is that that's why extreme ownership works. It works because people that don't take ownership, again, up or down the chain of command, they will be, they will, they will end up being overrun by the people that take ownership. It might not happen immediately, but eventually, the people that make excuses will be overrun by the people that take ownership. That's the way it works. And by the way, and again, I talked about this in the TED Talk. When that whole thing happened and I took ownership of it, my boss then trusted me more, not less. And

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  that's the, that's what happens. You end up increasing your trust. So

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  so take ownership.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  If your boss takes ownership too, that's awesome. That's awesome. That means you've got multiple people trying to solve the problem, which is good for the team.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  You guys get asked this a lot. For some reason, Leif gets asked this a lot, where it's a lot, a lot, like almost every single time I see Leif in a question answering situation. He's, they say, what do I do or what happens when my boss isn't taking ownership? Or what do I do when my whatever isn't taking ownership? The question is ultimately, what do I do when the other guy isn't taking ownership, right? And see how you're smiling right now because it's like, so obvious, you know? Essentially, that's what this is. I mean, he's not in the scenario, so it's not, you know, but so and how you guys always say, it's like, well, the thing is, extreme ownership isn't about the other guy taking ownership or not taking ownership.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  It's about everything you can personally do to take ownership. That's it. It stops right there. Now, just like you said, if everyone else is taking ownership, which will happen because it's kind of this weird contagious kind of thing.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  And, and I don't want to throw it out there like, oh, if I take ownership, then everyone's automatically taking ownership. That doesn't happen because there'll be people that don't. There's some people that are not looking to take ownership. And again, those are the people that will eventually get overrun.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  Because who do you want working for you? The guy that says, oh, this wasn't my fault. It wasn't someone else. Do you want that guy working for you? Because that person not going to change. They're not going to do anything different. They're not going to get that problem solved. You want the person working for you that says, you know what? This is my fault. This is what I'm going to do to fix it. Here we go.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  You go, okay, well, I'll let you continue to do your job and and I want you to continue to do your job. And by the way, when a promotion opportunity comes up, guess who I'm promoting? The guy that makes a bunch of excuses and blames other people or the guy that takes ownership and gets problems solved.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  There you go. It's a no brainer. And I think as people see that in an organization, the majority of people. Now, this I will say, the majority of people. They will also take ownership.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  There will be a minority of people that go, oh, I'm going to slough off and I'm going to keep blaming other people. And in their minds, they think they look good. Right?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  In my mind, when I go, well, it was my fault. It was Echo's fault. I think I saved myself from the blame. What I really did was look like an excuse making little baby.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:07Jocko Willink?

  And I don't want to promote me.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Jocko Willink?

  He's like, no, it wasn't my fault. Oh, the podcast didn't come. It wasn't my fault. It was Echo's fault.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, really? Okay. Well, let's let's think about that. Do you want, who's who's responsible? I'm shirking responsibility and laying it on some other person? I don't want that person working for me. No. So that's why it works.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  And I was scared of it. People are scared that, well, if I take the blame, I'm going to look bad. Don't be, you look bad when you don't take the blame. That's when you look bad.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much any time in one way or another, pretty much any time you look at other people and be like, hey, what about them? You know, in this extreme ownership situation, like the it's like it goes against the very nature of extreme ownership to to ask like, hey, what about them? Why didn't they take responsibility? Just like, I mean, back to the question, it's kind of like, just to kind of get a handle on understanding what extreme ownership is. If you start to incorporate, hey, what about them? Hey, what about the higher ups? Why should the ownership stop at you? Well, here's the thing, it doesn't begin, it begins and stops stops at me. That's 100% of what it is. Now, other people, I mean, if I can step out of my own situation of extreme and just kind of evaluate.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Other people, when they see you or feel you or see you taking ownership of stuff, I think it tends to be contagious.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  Like, yes, no, absolutely. That's what I just said. The majority of people, when you take ownership. When I take ownership of something, if I go, Echo, you know what? This is my fault that the podcast didn't come out, whatever. This is my fault that we didn't get this done. You your tendency isn't to go. Oh, cool. It's Jaco's fault. Yeah, I agree with you. You know, you go, no, man, I should have done this or I should have done that. And now, once again, we're both trying to solve the problem. That's the way it usually ends up.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Real interesting how like, um, Jamie, you know, I email with Jamie, your Jamie. That's a lot of fun. Uh, and she'll, like, I'll make some mistake, you know, on the spelling of something on some video, I don't know, something. And she'll, she's real good at taking ownership. She's like, oh, you know, I should have, you know, whatever, whatever. And to the point, sometimes like, I see what you're doing. And it's true. It's like any feeling of like, oh, oh, I should, you know, excuse making or whatever. Any feeling of that, gone. When someone is like, no, no, it's my fault. I should have caught that. What do you mean, you should have caught that? I should have caught that. I made the video kind of thing, kind of thing. But, man, it works. So like, it's real contagious, I think. Even people who are just naturally defensive, you know, you know, because people are different, you know?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I think over time, they tend to be, when, when they kind of build this, kind of, when everyone builds a reputation of not blaming, it's like they, they, they let that natural guard down and they tend, look, over time, you know, even if they, at first, they don't want to.

• 17:47Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Next question. What are some ways to get out of a rut in jujitsu? We're just talking about this. It's all fair. I always get caught in the same spot, cross side, and can't move. What should I do?

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  This is a brutal answer, but the truth.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:10Jocko Willink?

  If you have a hard time in a certain position, start there every time. Start with a person across the, across the side until you get used to it. And then, on top of starting there, and you start working your techniques, learn some new escapes. Because whatever you're doing right now isn't working. So learn some new escapes. Now, this doesn't mean that you need to learn forty-seven escapes. But if you've got your one go-to escape and it's not working, there's actually, there's a pretty good chance if you only know one escape from something, it's not going to work. Because one escape, then the guess what the person has to defend, one thing. And so they stop it. So, learn.

• 18:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, three escapes total, maybe four escapes total. And these are escapes that must be escapes that kind of chain together, which most of the time they do. So you learn the, and you know, you can ask, you can ask, obviously you can ask your instructor. You can ask some of the other students that, that you see get out, how did you do that? You can even go look at YouTube and Google cross side escapes and get some good ideas from there. And then you're gonna have to take risks while you try your new escapes in, you can drill them of course, but then eventually you're gonna have to try them live because when you do something in a drill is not the same as doing it live. It's, there are adjustments that need to be made and things that you need to figure out.

• 19:28Jocko Willink?

  And you're not gonna be successful the first hundred times or 50 times or 28 times or 420 times that you try something. You, you, there's a lot of little things you gotta figure out and you're gonna get caught in some of those times. You're gonna try something new and you're gonna get caught. So take risks.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  And try your escapes. Another point, and I've probably talked about this before.

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  Specifically cross side, don't wait. Until the person settles in before you start your escape. And this is true with anything, right? This is true with life. Don't wait until you're, if you see a bad position coming, don't wait until the position, don't wait until the bad thing actually fully happens to you. No, start to defend it before it settles in on you. You get a bad scenario coming down the line. Start to aggressively counter that bad thing, what, whatever it is before it actually gets you.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  And if you can do that, then you will be, I guarantee that, that's, that's a lot of the problem right there. Cause, cause you know why? Cause getting out of a cross side is a really hard position to get out of. I don't care who you are. I have a hard time. When Dean gets a cross side on me, it is hard to get out. Like, I mean, it, it's really hard to get out. So what does that mean? Yeah, that's a dominant position. And that's the last thing is like, you have to take some risks to get out. Sometimes you gotta break the rules to get out. You gotta do something. You gotta offer up a possible submission to them that you know is coming. You know, there's some things that you can do like that.

• 21:09Jocko Willink?

  But escaping before the situation has occurred to you is a very positive thing. You could do that with anything like you're in a relationship. You see something bad coming down the you see a human being you're in a relationship with, and you see that the relationship is going in a bad direction.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  If you try and either fix it or end it before the thing goes sideways, that's the smart thing to do.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait until everything's a disaster and you've got to go and get the restraining order, whatever, right? You're calling the cops because you've got someone that's acting irrational. Don't wait until that moment.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:52Jocko Willink?

  Solve the problem as early as possible is the point.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  So that's how you get out of that little rut.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that what you said in the beginning of the start in that bad situation, that that's a huge help. And I don't I don't know if all academies do this, but I mean, Dean has always done this where before you do open matter, the live role and whatever, like right before that, there was a part where it's essentially situational training.

• 22:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  You know, you go start side control. We're going to go for two minutes or minute and a half, whatever. Uh, one guy in top, one in bottom, obviously, and.

• 22:21Jocko Willink?

  If you get out, restart.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Yeah, you know, the top guy's trying to submit the bottom guy. The bottom guy's trying to escape. If the bottom guy escapes, you start all over. That's it.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  And the other point to that is if you get submitted, it doesn't count.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 22:33Jocko Willink?

  Like it's like, yeah, of course.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:34Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying new things. I'm taking risks, so I expect you. I I actually expect that you're gonna get submitted.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Jocko Willink?

  Because you're trying new things. If you, in fact, if you don't get submitted, you fail because you didn't try something new that was really risky.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  If you're just standing there. Yeah, that's not what that drill is for. And you can feel it too. You know, like, okay, sure, the guy tapped me out. You don't want him to tap you out, but you're there to escape. That's it, you know? So it's not about like winning this match or losing this round or whatever, you know, you're and then you get so familiar with being inside control. So when you do go live role, you're like, oh, I'm familiar because I've done this situation. The drill, full speed, by the way, it's a full speed drill. And yeah, you're just so familiar with that position. So not only more comfortable, you know, those different escapes that you've learned, you know, earlier that day, whatever, whenever you learn them. And then then you can execute way better.

• 23:22Jocko Willink?

  Get comfortable being uncomfortable.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that helped, man. That helps so much, those those situational. Sparring drills. Next question. Jaco. There are no bad teams, only bad leaders. Do you think there are exceptions to this? If so, how do you know you're a part of the exception?

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  That is a quote from the book Extreme Ownership, written by myself and my brother Leif Babin. And it is a quote that I don't want to say we stole, but we stole, we appropriated, from David Hackworth, who said, there's no bad, I think he said, no bad officers, no bad units, only bad officers. And Napoleon, who said, there's no bad regiments, only bad colonels. And we said, there's no bad teams, only bad leaders. And the question is, is there an exception to this? And how do you know if you're part of the exception? Well, actually, there is, there's a big exception to this. And the exception is that there are bad leaders with good teams. That is true.

• 24:31Jocko Willink?

  That can happen. Sometimes you get a bad leader that is running a really, really good team. So that's an exception. I guess it's an exception to this rule, maybe. That's the way I took it. So you get a team that's so good that they just continue to perform, even though they have a horrible leader, they perform despite their bad leader. Now, what this doesn't, this does not prove, you know, I always say leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. This doesn't disprove that statement. You'd think maybe it does because, oh, well, you got a bad leader and you got a good team. Then maybe leadership isn't that important. That's wrong. Actually, what it proves is that leadership can come from any level inside the organization.

• 25:16Jocko Willink?

  That's what it proves. And it proves that because I've seen that over and over again. And when I was running the training for the SEAL platoons.

• 25:23Jocko Willink?

  Eventually, I didn't care where the leadership in the platoon was because I realized that it was a real, it was a real hard thing to hope for, that you had the person that was in the leadership positions, like the platoon commander or the platoon chief, to, to assume or to figure that they were gonna be the leader that you wanted them to be, was a big assumption to make. And so what I realized after training for a while was like, even though I wanted the leaders to be those senior guys, who were supposed to be taking leadership, eventually I realized as, I, I didn't care where that leadership came from. As long as there was a couple of good leaders, you would end up with a good SEAL platoon and the platoon would be on track.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  Now, maybe the question is what this person is hinting at. The exception being, is there an exception that if there's a bad team, maybe that team is just so filled with bad people that they can't get the job done. That's the kind of exception he's talking about. We're failing because the team is so bad.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Even though the leader is good.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Even though the leader is good, but the team is so bad, that, that's an exception to the rule. Well, guess what?

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  Who's responsible for the people on the team? Who's responsible for training the people on the team so that they can get good at their job and they can perform with excellence? Or who's in charge of getting rid of the people that are subpar so that the team steps up their performance? Well, the answer to all those questions is the leader. So if you're on a bad team and you're leading the team, it's your fault and there's no exceptions to that.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  Zero.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm over here trying to think of the exception, but just what you said, it's like, eh, kinda,

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Kinda negates any.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  Hey, this, this, let's take a real, a real simple example of like a sports team, right? Oh, the sports team got dealt a bad hand and now the people on the team. Well, what are you gonna do? You're gonna train those people. Who's responsible? I'm not saying you're gonna start performing right now, but you can get on the trajectory where you'll be good eventually. Now, if you just blame, hey, I got a bad team. Well, guess what? Then you don't put any effort. Guess what? You're gonna continue to be a loser.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  I'm the exception.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my team, my team is just so bad.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Jocko Willink?

  Train your people. I'm not saying you're a miracle worker.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying you can, you can take people that don't have any skills and instantly through your leadership, turn them into incredible performers. No, that's not gonna happen, but guess what? As a leader, you go out and you bring people into your team that are good. You do train the people that you do have up to the best of their abilities and the people that can't perform the way they need to perform, you get rid of them.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:11Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 28:13Jocko Willink?

  No real exceptions, other than yeah, you can have a good team with bad leaders.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:18Jocko Willink?

  Only because there's a good leader somewhere in there.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  You know, the exceptions thing, I think it's healthy, in my opinion. In regards to this and most other things where if, if I or we start thinking that we're the exception, so we don't have to put in like, I don't know, like the work or whatever, not necessarily work, but the, you know how, like, okay, we'll take this one, no bad teams, only badly leaders, but ah, you know, if I say I might be the exception to this because my team is so bad, it's kinda like, aren't you kind of, yeah, aren't you kinda doing a little cop out there?

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  You 100% are. Bottom line is if you don't take ownership of what's going on, then you're not gonna perform well.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:56Jocko Willink?

  If you just blame your genetics, then that means, okay, well then I'm not gonna get in any kind of shape whatsoever. Then guess what, guess what kind of shape you're being? Junk.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Substandard.

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  Substandard.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Jocko, leadership is knowing when to cut someone loose that can't perform in a team, but do you have any techniques for trying to help people who lack common sense get better? In the name of just trying to make the world a better place, obviously without being a jerk.

• 29:29Jocko Willink?

  My, my common answer in situations like this, and you've heard it before, is to pick, put them in charge of something, right? You got someone that's, that's, doesn't have a lot of common sense. Pick something that's maybe just outside their level of competency and put them in charge of it. Something that doesn't put too much at risk, so you can give them some room to make some decisions and some mistakes without doing too much damage. And then you coach them, you monitor them and you coach them.

• 30:03Jocko Willink?

  And you you coach them not just on what decision to make. But more important, how to make that decision. So if you think about what common sense is, if you break it down. Right? If you break down what common sense is, common sense is like a blanket term that we don't really relate it to what it really means. But it's a blanket term that covers a person's sort of natural ability to make good decisions. That's what that's what common sense essentially is, right? Cause you don't look at someone, someone makes a bad decision and you say that person has no common sense. Someone makes a good decision or continually makes good decisions, that person's got a lot of, a lot of common sense. So what we're really talking about is their ability to make decisions.

• 30:51Jocko Willink?

  So when you're trying to help someone increase their common sense, what you're really trying to do is improve their decision making process. So some things to look at when it comes to improving your decision making process. Number one, learn how to step back and detach. That's, that's number one. You can't make good decisions when you're all embroiled in the, in the gunfight.

• 31:15Jocko Willink?

  Learn how to analyze and assess and create different courses of action. Some people only see one way. And when you only see one way and you can't detach, you never open up your mind to see that there could possibly be other ways.

• 31:32Jocko Willink?

  You have to, in order to have good common sense slash make good decisions, you have to understand how to look at and understand what the consequences of your actions are going to be. And that includes second and third order effects. Cause a lot of times when people, that guy has no common sense. Cause they do something that to them makes sense at that moment. They don't understand what the consequences are. They don't understand the second, third order effects. And so it ends up being a bad decision and we just throw out like, oh, the guy's got no common sense.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  To make a good decision, you have to know how to mitigate risk. That's also very important to make a good decision. You have to understand what your assets are and what kind of resources you have, even on a simple decision. Even on a quote, common sense decision, you have to understand what you have at hand to help you execute whatever decision you make. You have to, this is a big one. You have to learn, if you want to make good decisions, you have to understand that you're going to make some assumptions and you have to analyze those assumptions and see which ones make sense to make and which ones are not sensible to make. Cause obviously,

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  and there's that old, there's that old saying about assumptions, don't assume because it makes an ass out of you and me. That's a, that's a a pretty realistic saying. It's a pretty good saying to keep in the back of your mind. If you make assumptions on things, however, that being said, if you make no assumptions, well then you can never move forward on most things because you got to assume like, okay, most of the time this is probably what's going to happen and you can go forward with that. So, the list go, you know, the list goes on and, and and on, and what you need to do is as you give these people a little bit of

• 33:25Jocko Willink?

  room and a little bit of responsibility and a little bit of decision making in their life. Like you could do with your kids, right? You give your kids the opportunity to make a decision. And, and if they make a bad decision and all you do is smack them.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  Without explaining to them the process, the decision-making process, which is where that decision came from. Then they're never going to gain more common sense. And you know, when you, when you think about the list, I think detachment is actually the most important thing. And I think what happens, the people that don't have common sense, they, they, they actually don't have the ability.

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  At that time, because they haven't been trained properly to see things from an outside perspective.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:09Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever noticed when somebody does something that's completely la- the complete lack of common sense? When you raise the point to them, they're always kind of like astonished. That like they don't even get. Why what they did was dumb. They just think that that's just how it was gonna be. And they don't even understand that what they did was dumb.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes you have to actually explain to people that they're so. They're so embedded in their decision making process, they can't see it from an external perspective. So they don't even understand how dumb their decision was.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  If you can get them some level of detachment. Then you're moving them in the right direction. You're improving their common sense and yes, when you're doing that. To your credit, you're actually making the world a better place.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And they get and you kind of said this anyway, but you give them them experience. You know, like when you let them like make make more decisions. Cause really, that's really what common sense is, right? If you have or don't have common sense, it's like if you have a lot of experience, common sense is likely. You're a little bit more in touch with it than someone with very little experience. So let's say, I mean, culturally, we'll say so in Hawaii, everyone takes off their shoes when they go in the house. That's just how. And, uh, you know, in the mainland, it's not like that. So if I've never been to Hawaii, I have no experience in Hawaii, but you know, in the, in the, I've lived in the mainland the whole time. But I don't have any access to the, you know, Hawaii culture or whatever. I go to Hawaii, I'm gonna leave my shoes on. You know, it's, it's like common sense, man. You take off your shoes if you've only lived in Hawaii the whole time, right? Now.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  It's you could argue, hey, all you gotta do is look around and see. But bro, I don't, I'm not trained to look around to see what everyone's wearing and not wearing, you know? Like, bro, sometimes.

• 35:56Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever notice? I would say once a month at the gym, someone walks on the mat with shoes on, like just not even.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  When it's, they're literally stepping over a big pile or line of flip flops and shoes to get on the mat. And they're just no factor. They're just stepping over with their street shoes on.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's the.

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  And you would think common sense would tell you, hey, it looks like every single person, there's 28 people on the mat. None of them are wearing shoes and I'm stepping over. You'd think, but that's a person that doesn't have common sense.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Right, well.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  So what you have to do with a person like that, and when you see someone that does that kind of thing, you know, let's say your kid did that. You'd say, hey, instead of just going, hey, take off your shoes. You know, you go, hey, before you do something, look around at the environment. Take a look around. What do you see?

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  You see all these people on the mat, none of them wearing shoes, and you look right in front of your feet and there's all these shoes off the mat? That probably indicates that you should take off your shoes. That should be a good decision.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  It should be, but, and but now you're going into yet another different type of experience. Like if you're in scenarios often where you were looking around and seeing what other people are doing and wearing, like and all this stuff. If you're constantly in situations like that, that will become more part of your common sense, right? But, so it's like to say, I mean, there are plenty of people who in normal everyday life have normal common sense like everyone else. Who would wear shoes on the mat. They just simply would, because they don't, hey, these guys are training. They're not going to wear shoes while they're training, so they took off their shoes. I'm not training. I'm just going to go talk to this guy over here. Boom, I'm rolling with the shoes on the mat. Just like, oh, I've never been away. You know, I'm going to go in this house. They live here.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Maybe he just got out of bed. Maybe they just want to be comfortable because they got out of work. I don't know. I don't. It doesn't go through the thought process of my common sense. My common sense is if I don't have to take off my shoes for something specific, I'm not going to do it. That's just how, that's just my common experience, you know? So the common sense is kind of a situational thing, you know, it's not just cut and dry. He has common sense versus not. So you put them in more experience that's common to the group. Oh, man, his common sense goes up.

• 38:07Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so. Next question. I've been told by employees that I'm cold and non-engaging. My peers say I charge hell with a bucket of water and sometimes get to stop or sometimes forget to stop and fill the bucket. In military training, we all went through the mental part and in battle, some won't engage properly. I treat my business same, the same way as I fought. In a firefight, my mind was clear, focused on the objective and being aggressive always. Why should my business be any different? Delegate and don't quit until you accomplish the goal. Is this wrong?

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  So, let's start with cold and non-engaging.

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  I get that people have different levels of emotional responsiveness. I, I get that. I'm probably a little bit on the low end of that in terms of being super emotionally responsive.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  I don't really get mad.

• 39:14Jocko Willink?

  I don't usually get frustrated.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, as a leader, you have to show some emotion. And if you show no emotion at all, then you aren't a person, you're a robot and robots don't really connect with people. And so, you don't form any relationships. And if you don't form good relationships, you're not gonna have a good leadership connection with your team. That's the way it is. So, you gotta show some emotions. You, you don't need to get all wild. And in fact, as a leader, your emotions should be controlled. They should be, you know, if a normal person's emotions go from one to 10, a leader should be like, you know, at three, maybe four.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  And he shouldn't go beyond that. And I've talked about this before. If, if someone, if my team's getting all emotional and I'm just all cold, I, I actually disconnect from my team and all of a sudden they're looking at me like, I'm not one of them.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  That's a bad thing. Yeah, doesn't even care. Same thing with your, with your spouse. If you, your spouse is all mad about something and you're like, hey, just calm down, that's gonna be a problem. You have to, you have to give them some emotions back. So.

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  Show some emotions as a leader. You might even have to, you know, manufacture that just a little bit to, to let them see that you care. You know, you, you gotta do that with your kids sometimes, you know, because like your kid is doing something that you know they shouldn't be doing, but it's kind of funny. And it's hard to get mad at, but you realize if you don't get mad and this, this behavior escalates, then that's problematic. Like, are you kind of fired up when your kid does something, climbs up on a wall and is balancing, you know, eight feet in the air? Well, if they fall and crack their head, that's gonna be a problem. At the same time, you think it's kind of cool, but you have to reinforce safety. And so you gotta be like a little bit angry at them, right?

• 41:15Jocko Willink?

  Hey, hey, I told you not to do, right? Kid running in the road or whatever. You gotta, you gotta reinforce stuff. So it's, you, you actually have to show some level of emotions. Now, as far as the other part of the question

• 41:30Jocko Willink?

  is aggression and never quitting, is that wrong? Well, you know, quite frankly,

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  yes.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it can be very wrong.

• 41:46Jocko Willink?

  Of course, much of what the statement is, it makes sense, right? Be aggressive, don't quit, focus on the objective, charge into hell with a vengeance, right? We all like to hear that, right? That reflects a great attitude.

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  I think everyone would expect me and they would actually hear me say those things, the same exact things. They want to be aggressive. We're never gonna quit. We're gonna take that objective no matter what. You would hear me say that.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, we have to remember that there are dichotomies in leadership, right? And taking what is a normally, what is normally a good attitude to an absolute extreme without any balance at all. That will turn into a problem. So it sounds like this individual is aggressive, which is a very positive trait, but it sounds like perhaps there are times when this individual might be too aggressive. Now, most people don't want to hear that and they don't think they're gonna hear that from me. Right? You almost think when somebody asks me a question like this, you almost think in their back of their mind, they're going, you know what, Jaco is gonna tell me and I'm gonna go even harder.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I'm gonna show them.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  Reinforcement from Jaco about how being aggressive is awesome. But here's the reality. And especially if you throw like the firefight thing, like Jaco is definitely gonna be on board with me now. But guess what? Here's the reality. If you're in a firefight and the enemy is in an elevated bunker position across open ground and you just keep attacking it with your platoon, what's gonna happen?

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what's gonna happen. You're all gonna die. That's what's gonna happen. So you're all fired up, you're all aggressive, you're never gonna quit and you're all gonna die. Does that help us? Does that help us achieve our overall strategic objective? The answer is no. If you pull back for a minute, if you detach for a moment mentally and possibly physically as well, you will likely see that there's a better approach. Oh, how about we call for fire support? How about we put down some cover, lay down some suppressive fire and move around to the flank of the bunkered position? There's a bunch of different ways that you can get this done

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  in a much more survivable way. But the fact is, if you're always aggressive and your mindset is I am not gonna quit, then you won't see those other solutions. And yes, that is problematic. Yes, that is wrong. And it's the same thing in dealing with people.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  If, if people don't respond to your leadership, and your reaction to that is just to get more and more aggressive with them,

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  they aren't likely to come around, right? In fact, they are likely to either become hostile towards you because you're being aggressive towards them, or they break. Yeah. Which each one of those is problematic, bad, bad results. Either my team becomes hostile towards me, or I break my team. Either way, it's bad. So, being aggressive all the time? No, not good. And same thing, same thing could be like, default aggressive, right? I literally teach people to, to be that way. But if you go too far with it,

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  you'll end up in a bad situation. Same thing with don't quit, right? Of course, of course, don't quit. Great attitude, my attitude is I'm never gonna quit. I want everyone on my team to have that attitude. I have that attitude. That's like the, the saying in, in the SEAL teams. Don't quit, never quit.

• 45:28Jocko Willink?

  But you have to be very, very careful that you don't confuse don't quit

• 45:36Jocko Willink?

  with don't try any other solutions. Or don't deviate from the original plan, no matter what. Hey, I'm not quitting, I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again. I'm gonna keep going forward with the same plan. The plan isn't working. Okay, but I'm not a quitter, I'm just gonna keep doing the same plan. That's not good. That's not good. Don't quit means you don't give up. It actually, don't quit actually means try different solutions if one of them isn't working. Don't quit means keep an open mind.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  Don't quit means you don't quit thinking.

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  Don't think, don't quit thinking. And then don't quit means you continue to keep thinking and keep addressing a problem and keep attacking the problem until you do accomplish the mission. But you do that through multiple different avenues, not the same avenue the whole time.

• 46:31Jocko Willink?

  That's how you lead. That's how you get aggressive. That's how you actually never quit. And by the way, that is how you win.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that morale thing, remember you were talking about morale. Actually.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Where, you know, like some bosses, they'll be like, hey, I'm not here to make you feel good. Or I'm not here to make friends, or whatever.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  You know, and sometimes like behavior or whatever, things like that can lead to behavior that makes people like not want to work for you or not feel good about the job. Like, I'm not happy about like, what's the use of making someone do the job if they don't feel good about doing it? You know, like the morale is down. I used to think, well, morale, like people need to just toughen up, you know, like freaking morality. You don't just not do something just because you're not feeling good that day, kind of, kind of thing. I thought that too. But man, if you have a group of people who they all don't want to do it, no, they're not going to do it.

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  It's a problem.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, they're gonna not do it.

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, they might do that one thing that day.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 47:39Jocko Willink?

  And then over time, they're gonna break down, for sure.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  You're not leading them in the, in the right direction.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:45Jocko Willink?

  You can, look, forcing people to do things when you're in a position of authority, you can do that.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  That works. That's functional. That's a thing. It'll work a little bit.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:55Jocko Willink?

  Right? But over time, will you end up with a team that really will perform well and will continue to drive when they hit obstacles? No, you won't. You'll end up with a team that's doing what they're being told to do out of fear.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  And that team is going to get beat by the team that is doing it because they want to do it.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So if it's like, you know, the guy who, you know, they, I don't think that my boss cares about me. In fact, I think that he kind of doesn't care about me. That's what I think.

• 48:27Jocko Willink?

  You're not going to do a lot of extra effort to support your boss.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I'm sure won't, won't want to. Next question, Jaco. Do you talk about, or you talk about building relationships a lot at work, even when people whom you might not like? Even with people whom you don't like? Have you always been this way, or did you also feel difficult?

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Also feel difficulty in wanting to build relationships with those people. If the latter, what are the things that help you to actually want to build relationships with them?

• 49:03Jocko Willink?

  So, when I was a young SEAL, I was

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  pretty typical young SEAL, pretty typical young man. Meaning, I thought I was invincible.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  I thought I could beat everyone in a fight. Cause I didn't know jujitsu, so you just think you're just gonna win, but that you're wrong. I thought I knew everything, of course. And I thought I was smarter than everyone else. Kinda typical. Sometimes I would rub people the wrong way.

• 49:35Jocko Willink?

  And the people that I would rub the wrong way were especially people that I thought were not squared away in the chain of command. So if you weren't square, if you, if you were my boss and I didn't think you were squared away, I was gonna rub you the wrong way. Cause I was gonna be slightly offensive.

• 49:51Jocko Willink?

  As a matter of fact, I got an evaluation. It's one of the first evaluations that I got when I got to a SEAL team. And back in the day, yeah, you'd get, you were rated 4.0 was the highest you could get, and it would go all the way down to whatever, like 1. But at this time, ba- basically everyone got 4-0 in everything, right? You basically got 4-0 in everything.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Like you'd have to mess up.

• 50:14Jocko Willink?

  You have to mess up.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  To get deviate from the 4-0.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  So, I got all 4-0s. And I got a 3.8, which was like a major dig. And the dig was in, I think it was like in relation, like, I don't know what the word was, but when I got debriefed on it, what the guy that gave me the 3.8, what he, what he told me, which I actually was proud of, cause that's how stupid I was. He's like, "You, you're, you're too hostile with people that aren't squared away." That's literally what he told me. And I was all like, "Whatever. You're damn right I am hostile towards people that aren't squared away. I'm here to go to war." Right? Just an idiot. That's what, that's what the situation was. And...

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, it made me mad if a leader was weak and I would form these antagonistic relationships with leaders if I thought that they were weak.

• 51:13Jocko Willink?

  And one of these bosses eventually that I thought I was better than. Right? I thought I was smarter. I thought I was smarter than him, right? I thought that he was an idiot.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  I should have his job, right? How often do you think that, right? I should have that guy's job. I'm better than them. I'm smarter than them. And the more I showed this attitude, the worse our relationship got and the and the less he listened to me and the less influence I had over how we did things.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  And therefore, the the worse we did and the and the the worse our ability to perform got because he was just doing things the way he thought without any good input from anyone below him in the chain of command.

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  All because I had formed this antagonistic relationship with him, which was bad. Cause then he's not listening to me. And then one day,

• 52:13Jocko Willink?

  one day I said to myself, if I'm so smart, if I'm such a smart guy, why am I losing?

• 52:26Jocko Willink?

  Why am I losing? If I'm so smart, if I am so smart, why can't I get this guy to do what I want him to do? Even though he's my boss, doesn't matter. If I'm so smart, and I'm so much smarter than him, why can't I get him to do what I want him to do?

• 52:46Jocko Willink?

  Why? If I'm so smart, how come I can't have more influence over the way we operate? If I'm so smart and he's so dumb?

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's when I realized, that's when I had an awakening. An awakening that instead of blaming him for being stupid,

• 53:07Jocko Willink?

  I was the one who was being stupid.

• 53:10Jocko Willink?

  I had lost the ability to influence my boss because I was being stupid and because of my ego. I I literally thought I deserved his job. I mean, I thought pretty much anyone should, anyone in the platoon should have his job.

• 53:29Jocko Willink?

  And therefore, since I thought that, I undermined him. Instead of supporting him, instead of building a relationship with him, I undermined him. Now, once I got humble,

• 53:44Jocko Willink?

  and I started to build a positive relationship with him instead of an antagonistic one, that started to change. And because then he started listening to me. He started to change some things and my influence over the whole situation became better because I now had a relationship, despite the fact that I don't really like the guy. Despite that fact, I built the relationship and the situation got better. I had more influence.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  And that became kind of my standard operating procedure was to build relationships with people. Even if I didn't like them, to build relationships with people so that I could have more influence. Now, what does that sound like? Right? That sounds like I'm kind of this manipulative, two-faced, superficial, disingenuous guy. Yeah, yeah. That's being devious and conniving. Not keeping it real. Not keeping it real, right?

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  But the fact is, that is not true. That's not, that's not, that's not who I am. You want to know who I am?

• 54:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm a guy that's trying to accomplish the mission. That's what I am. I'm a guy that is trying to accomplish the mission, who is putting my own ego in check to build a relationship with someone that I don't like, that I don't respect. But what I'm trying to do is

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  improve our operational capability. That's what's more important to me.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  Trying to arrange the situation, build the relationship so that we do better. Not so that I get promoted, not so that I'm getting some accolades, but so that we, as a team, do a better job. Put the little feelings aside because I want the team to win.

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  So if you're having some trouble getting over your feelings

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  and getting over your ego to build relationships for the good of their team, ask yourself the same question I asked myself a long time ago.

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  Which is this, if I am so smart,

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  why am I not winning?

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  And if you answer that question honestly, then you'll put your ego in check, you'll go build the relationships that will make you and your team accomplish the mission and win.

• 56:16Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Can't help but agree with that one.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  You know what, you know what's funny is we think about like, why you wouldn't like someone? What causes you to not like someone? Most of the time, that's your ego anyways. Most of the time, that's your ego anyways.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so you know, you had that story of the, you know, you were consulting somebody who was like a big CEO of a company, like a lacrosse guy. That story is probably the most common story. I mean, the way you handle it different. Yeah, but that scenario that you started with, with us are so common, man. Where, yeah, they rub you the wrong way because right off the bat, you see him as some kind of competitive figure to you. Like they're, you know, some, you know, competitive, you know, you're competing with them in your own mind, in whatever. And the feeling is probably mutual a lot of the time, you know, so you guys don't like each other, you know? One, anything he says, you're, you know, you're already defensive. But it's weird, man, how you can, how that happened. Like, that's happened to me before. Not as, it wasn't as overt, but just like, yeah, I don't really feel that guy, you know?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  I don't like, I would, because I, not only is he like, when you look at him or whatever, they're kind of competitive with you, but maybe they do something just this much different than you, you know? Like it's just different in philosophy or something like that. So it's like, oh, I'm against that guy. And then they open their mouth and say one word to you and it's real nice. You're like, oh, I love that guy, you know, just one little thing, just one little like, hey, I'm cool, you know, I like you kind of thing. And it's like, oh, man.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when they say something humble to you, it disarms your ego and you're all of a sudden, you're bros.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so weird how that is.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  But if they don't, if they escalate the ego situation, then it's very problematic.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  It happens all the time, too, man. I mean, really, that's the natural course of things because you do have to put on the brakes on your feelings and be like, okay, let's make a different kind of decision than the automatic one. I gotta switch to manual real quick. And then boom.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  But the bottom line is you're going to interact with all kinds of different people. If you're in any kind of team whatsoever, which is most, most human beings interact with other human beings through their job, through their life, through, I mean, you could apply this to your family too, right? There's someone in your family that you don't get along with. Well, what good does it do? Does it make your family unit better when you let those emotions play out and let your ego play out? No, it doesn't. You're better off, you'll get further and you'll have a better, you'll have a better life in your family if you put your ego in check and say, you know what? I'm just going to build a relationship with this person. It's going to make everything better and smoother.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  But it's like, man, if you, I feel like you can take the place of any marriage counselor by just saying that, for real. Like, all you gotta do, and they gotta do it, but all you gotta do is ask, like, is this gonna help the relationship with my wife or my family, whoever it is in your, is this gonna help the relationship if I do this or don't do this? Or is it gonna hurt it? And that's, that's it. That's super general question or whatever, but it's, it's so cut and dry most of the time. Yeah, of course, there's exceptions, but generally speaking, it's pretty cut and dry. And you're like, okay. And a lot of time, just like I said, it has to do with like your ego or your, you know, this, this sense of vengeance, little micro sense of vengeance because I can't believe she doesn't respect the fact that I took out the trash, you know? She asks me to take the trash all the time.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Finally, when I do it, nothing, you know, like, it's just that.

• 59:31Jocko Willink?

  I was talking to a friend of mine and we were talking about, you, you know, I've talked about the mutiny that I had in SEAL Platoon, but we had a mutiny, we fired, we had a mutiny against our platoon commander. We fired, he, he got fired and then the other guy that came in to take his place was like the best guy. And I was talking to a guy that worked with him much later when he was a senior, senior guy. And I was telling him, I was like, oh, when I talk on the podcast about the platoon commander that was like the best, that's who I'm talking with? He's like, no way. And, and this guy worked with me, he's a senior guy. And he says, you know, when he, when I worked with him, he would take out, he would take out the trash from the office every day.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  And I started laughing, I'm like, that's, that's right. And I'd be look, and he was saying like, oh, I'd look at him and be like, sir, you know, you don't need to do that. He's like, no, no, no, it's all good, you know, somebody's got to take out the trash. I got it. This is a seat, a guy that shouldn't have been taking out trash for twenty five years, taking out the trash.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Was he picking up brass?

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  Picking up brass, taking out trash. That's, that's being humble.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Being humble goes a long way.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  We got time for one more. Cause I got stuffed.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Sure. Hi, Jaco. I'm a veteran in graduate school. My mother passed away in April and I took a few weeks off. While that was helpful, I'm struggling returning to work. My peers are younger and inexperienced. I'm the oldest in the, in the cohort. And probably the first vet to come to this grad program. I've already had some uphill battles and up to this point, I truly believe I was worthy of my own suffering. Now, though, after sobbing on a plane while listening to episode one twenty two, I don't feel as worthy. I wasn't there for my mother when she died. In fact, I cut her out due to her drinking, which is what killed her.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  I've lost people close to me in the past and in the service, but this is different. I know one thing, I'm a fighter. I've had to fight all my life to get where I am, but I'm feeling deflated.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  I mean, to start with, of course you feel deflated.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Because you lost your mom.

• 1:01:56Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's normal, but what is not normal and what you have to fight against is staying deflated.

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 1:02:09Jocko Willink?

  I mean, listen, your mom is gone. And you should certainly mourn that. You weren't by her side when she died.

• 1:02:19Jocko Willink?

  And this is due to the fact that you had to cut her off. And you had to cut her off because of her drinking. If you don't cut someone off when they're going down that path, you're only enabling them.

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  And that is not the right thing to do.

• 1:02:39Jocko Willink?

  And of course, we want to be able to save everyone. That's absolutely, we want to be able to save everyone, especially our own family members.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  But the fact of the matter is that you, you just can't save everyone. No one can.

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  No one can. Addiction is, in many cases, stronger than us.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  Stronger than anything, stronger than love. Believe it or not, stronger than life itself sometimes. That's how strong addiction is.

• 1:03:33Jocko Willink?

  And you cannot and are not expected to be able to defeat that.

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  So you did what you could.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  And in the end, the battle was lost, not because of you, but because of addiction.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  And it is hard to face that kind of loss.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  But now, how are you going to look at this? How are you going to deal with this?

• 1:04:28Jocko Willink?

  I look at it like this, your mother.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  Your mother gave you a gift, a precious gift.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  She gave you the gift of knowledge.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  That that knowledge allows you to see how destructive that force of addiction can be. You saw it destroy her.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  You saw that addiction destroy her because she showed it to you. That was her last gift to you. She, she's actually given you life twice, once at birth and once at her death.

• 1:05:18Jocko Willink?

  She's actually shown you how to live by showing you how not to live.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  So, thank your mother for that.

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  Literally thank her, literally go to her graveside and get down on your knees and say thank you to her.

• 1:05:54Jocko Willink?

  And then tell her that you won't let her down.

• 1:05:59Jocko Willink?

  And then tell her that you will learn from her lesson.

• 1:06:07Jocko Willink?

  And then tell her that you will go on to live an incredible life.

• 1:06:16Jocko Willink?

  A life that she would be proud of, a life that she didn't have, but a life

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  that she is making sure you can have.

• 1:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, you said that you're a fighter?

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's one thing you know is that you're a fighter? Well, now get out there.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  And fight.

• 1:06:52Jocko Willink?

  And you know that, that question? And Kind of thinking about the answer to that question, that got me thinking about An article that I read about Anthony Bourdain. And Anthony Bourdain, obviously, he was about as successful As

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  As anyone could be. I mean, He was a successful guy in so many aspects and yet

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  And yet he killed himself. And I didn't know him personally. But you know, He knew people that I know, you know, he was, he was friends with Joe Rogan. He was, he was friends with Harley Flanagan. He was friends with guys that Guys that are really good guys.

• 1:07:47Jocko Willink?

  And So in that way, I kind of felt like I knew what kind of a guy he was at least.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  And even from the outside, even without Having any connections to him at all, he, he was the kind of guy that had Just about everything that, that, that most people would want.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  And Even still, I mean, obviously that wasn't enough.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, in the article that I read, there was a quote from One of Anthony Bourdain's books and the book was called A Cook's Tour. He said in this book, "I wanted adventures."

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  "I wanted to go up the Nung River To the heart of darkness in Cambodia." "I wanted to ride out into a desert on camelback, sand and dunes in every direction. Eat whole roasted lamb with my fingers." "I wanted to kick snow off my boots in a mafia nightclub in Russia. I wanted to play with automatic weapons in Phnom Penh. Recapture the past in a small oyster village in France. Step into a seedy neon-lit polka-rea In rural Mexico."

• 1:09:19Jocko Willink?

  I wanted to run roadblocks in the middle of the night, blowing past angry militia with a handful of hurled marble packs.

• 1:09:30Jocko Willink?

  Experience fear, excitement, wonder. I wanted kicks.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  The kind of melodramatic thrills and chills I yearned for since childhood.

• 1:09:45Jocko Willink?

  The kind of adventure I'd found as a little boy in the pages of my tin tin comic books.

• 1:09:52Jocko Willink?

  I wanted to see the world and I wanted the world to be just like the movies.

• 1:10:05Jocko Willink?

  That's what Anthony Bourdain said, "Just like the movies."

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  But you know what, to me,

• 1:10:21Jocko Willink?

  the world is not like the movies.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  The movies aren't real. They don't exist.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  But you do.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  And life, this life is, it's better than any movie there is. Movies are supposed to provoke emotion. They're supposed to make you feel something.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  But I have a better idea. Go out into the world and actually feel it.

• 1:11:01Jocko Willink?

  Go feel joy and love and triumph and rapture and ecstasy and glory. Go feel those things.

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  And you know, with those feelings,

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  there will be other feelings as well. There'll be sorrow and pain and sadness and desolation and suffering.

• 1:11:37Jocko Willink?

  There'll be all those feelings too, but you know what?

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  That's okay.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  That's okay. Take both sides. Feel all of it, that's what life is. Those feelings, those emotions, those highs and those lows. Those are life.

• 1:12:09Jocko Willink?

  And those emotions and those feelings are better than any movie because they are real.

• 1:12:22Jocko Willink?

  So make your own

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  comic book.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  Make your life your own movie. Actually make it better than a movie.

• 1:12:35Jocko Willink?

  Not, not better because it's more adventurous or more romantic or more melodramatic. Make it better

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  because it's real.

• 1:12:52Jocko Willink?

  It's real, so it is better. And you know what? Real comes with some downsides.

• 1:13:01Jocko Willink?

  Real comes with some darkness.

• 1:13:13Jocko Willink?

  But that's okay.

• 1:13:17Jocko Willink?

  It's okay because when you know the darkness,

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  the light becomes even brighter.

• 1:13:29Jocko Willink?

  So go out there. Move toward the light, move toward the light.

• 1:13:40Jocko Willink?

  And live.

• 1:13:46Jocko Willink?

  Live.

• 1:13:53Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 1:13:56Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight. So

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  so Echo, let's talk to people a little bit about

• 1:14:10Jocko Willink?

  how to support this podcast and at the same time move themselves a little further away from the darkness and a little bit closer to the light.

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  Cause we make the podcast. So everyone can learn. And if you want to

• 1:14:27Jocko Willink?

  support the podcast, there are some really good ways to do it. And that's the goal. Support podcast and you're supporting yourself at the same time. So what you got?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  They go hand in hand. Agree hundred thousand percent.

• 1:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Not possible, but we'll deal with it.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Can you agree one thing? You know how I say, I agree with you hundred ten percent. I agree with you, but I think I feel 10% even more strong than what you just, you know, technically that could be, I'm just saying.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, yes. So we'll start with Origin. Origin USA in Maine. Farmington, Maine, to be exact. American made products. What do we got? Okay, ghee's. That's really the the flagship. I like the word flagship, by the way. Flagship product is the ghee made for jujitsu specifically for jujitsu in America.

• 1:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Also made for specifically jujitsu, but usable for many different activities.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  What? Like making a suit?

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  Rash guards.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I was like, gee, is like flagship, right? Which I agree with. But then you also have rash guards.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Other stuff, cool stuff.

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  Compression gear.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Compression gear. Yeah, spats, if you will. Uh, yeah, for sure. But the ghee's aren't just like ghee's though. See what I'm saying? They're not just a general ghee, the ghee made in America, by the way. For jujitsu specifically. When you move in jujitsu is different than moving in, I don't know, whatever else you might wear a ghee in.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Like tennis.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Whatever, bruh. You were saying you were gonna make a suit with the dragon weave.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is kinda crazy.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:12Jocko Willink?

  I actually had another, I have an idea of something to make with the dragon weave. I'm gonna talk to Pete about.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Alright, what is it, let me, reveal, reveal.

• 1:16:21Jocko Willink?

  Believe it or not, boots.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Boots?

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, so they wouldn't be full dragon weave?

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no. They'd be, they'd be very similar to the old school Vietnam jungle boots. But they'd have the dragon weave, instead of canvas, they'd have dragon weave. And, because, which I think is the, literally the perfect material for the, jungle, old school jungle boots are part leather. They're like leather around the toe and the heel. But then, they have canvas on the sides, and I, I wore jungle, and I still wear jungle boots. I love jungle boots, so. Yeah, so, but if we made, cuz the cotton canvas does stay wet longer. But if we use the dragon weave, it dries quicker cuz it's a blend.

• 1:17:04Jocko Willink?

  But cotton is also very comfortable to wear. It allows circulation. So anyways, that's, I'll, I'll talk to Pete, we'll make it happen.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  So the, the shorts that I have, that no one else can have, is dragon weave, right? That is, okay, so I was talking to Pete about, make some more, and we went through the thing, this whole other thing. But here's, here's what I do remember, if you, since you brought up boots. Where, okay, so those shorts, you know, I have kids, and with kids comes messes. You know, where they'll spill some, I don't know, whatever, so stuff will land on those shorts. And, you know, the kinda where it's like, dang, I don't wanna take off these shorts and go wash them, like, let me just put some water. And, but then some of the messes, like, you can't just put water, it goes away, you gotta scrub it. But if they're like normal shorts, I'm gonna scrub it with like a brush, and it's gonna kinda mess up the shorts a little bit right there. You know, it'll make it like, kinda, it'll fray them or something like that.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Bruh, now these ones, bruh, I'm scrubbing it with a steel wool thing to get the thing out. Bruh, the thing is like, new still. Aside from like, the cotton part fades, right, you know, it's a blend, right, so the cotton ones will fade. So it has this awesome little gray stripe with black, bruh, it's dope. Incidental, uh, dopeness improvement.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  In the, in the aesthetic look.

• 1:18:17Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  That's a side note, but I'm saying, it's tough with the, you see what I'm saying? So it kinda makes sense now, dragon weave boots, boom, you're in the jungle, fishing, whatever else we're doing with them, and they, they handle. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'll work on it.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Would you make it like on the inside, would it be, uh, what do you call it, waterproof?

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Or whatever?

• 1:18:34Jocko Willink?

  That's the thing with jungle boots, you don't want them waterproof. They're, they're highly breathable. You have little eyelets.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  Little drains. So you want them highly breathable.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, like not even breathable, open.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  There's holes purposely put in there.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Dang, so the concept is real jujitsu-ish, you know, cause like, uh, on, at first thought, you'd be like, hey, you're gonna walk in water, we need to fight that water. Nah, it's like, yeah, allow the water in and allow the water out.

• 1:19:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Man, that's good, man. That's good. See, bro, that's why you're advanced. See, you think about these kinds of things. Speaking of being advanced and comfortable. Advanced comfort with the joggers and the sweats. It's my experience. Try it for yourself. Many people, actually, I saw a guy today, maybe yesterday, today, yes, I forget. But he got the hoodie, one of Origin's hoodie, boom, seconded that exact notion, most comfortable hoodie ever he's ever had.

• 1:19:24Jocko Willink?

  That's a bold statement.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  And I could just see, tell from his profile picture that he knew about comfort. I don't know, it just, I just could feel it. Nonetheless, it happened factually.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Also, we got some supplements up there on the originmain.com website. You can get some supplements.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  What kind of supplements, bro?

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Some good ones.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yep. So joint warfare.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  That one, well, what, could we call that one a flagship supplement?

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  You can call everything flagship.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it a flagship. Yeah, yeah, the flagship is good, man.

• 1:19:55Jocko Willink?

  By the way, someone said, someone said on social media, go back to the old way you were doing the support. The new way sounds clunky. Give it back to Echo, he said.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  You know what I said? Couldn't take it anymore.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be honest, I will accept the possibility, probability of you not being the only one that thought that. So I'm gonna go with it, uh, you know.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  There was that one guy, though, he was fired up enough to tweet me.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:20:26Jocko Willink?

  And say, brah, it sounds clunky.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Dang, I kinda appreciate it, you know?

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  You're stoked.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I really do now that I think of it.

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  We could have a separate podcast where you could just do support the whole time.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Separate version.

• 1:20:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can kinda choose.

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Choose your own support.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. Nonetheless, for now, this is what we're doing. We're going with joint, joint warfare.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Joint warfare.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Right? Good for your joints. Omega 3 is good for your joints. And that's in krill oil. So you got joint warfare, glucosamine, conjointin and curcumin. That helps your brain, by the way.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  As we found out.

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Additionally.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Additionally. Then you got, uh.

• 1:21:00Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to Rhonda Patrick.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Jocko Willink?

  Rhonda Patrick, right?

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, I read that too, by the way, it's good. Then you got, okay, so you got joint warfare, boom. Glucosamine conjointin, that's for, I think, cartilage, if I'm not mistaken, joints, all this stuff, boom, curcumin for some brain, some memory stuff, boom, that's joint warfare. Then you got Jaco super krill. It's for your joints, omega threes, and that's also for other parts of your anatomy.

• 1:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Stack it up.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  It will say your whole internal system.

• 1:21:29Jocko Willink?

  You didn't say your eyes?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Eyeballs.

• 1:21:31Jocko Willink?

  Eyeballs.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Eyeballs, organs, brain.

• 1:21:34Jocko Willink?

  Can you crack open a krill oil capsule and put it directly into your eyes? Is that a good thing?

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  I'm assuming no, uh, you know, I'm gonna have to, yeah, but yeah, let's not do that, I think.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  I've been on krill oil for so long.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Jocko Willink?

  People, like, I don't wanna ever go off of it.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a good idea, to never go off of it.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  The reason is, cause I had a guy many years ago that was, uh, this is when I was probably thirty-five.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  I met a guy that was fifty-three, I think, and he was jacked. And he was jacked, but he wasn't, he wasn't jacked like a, like a, a big bodybuilder juiced up guy, just jacked, like, totally athletic.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  And in really great shape. And I was like, hey, man, what's the deal with, you know, and he's like, I take krill oil. That's, he's like, that's the secret.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  He was just attributing.

• 1:22:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he attributed all this. Now, he was a competitive powerlifter at one time, so he had maintained and continued to work out.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Jocko Willink?

  But he was basically saying that to me as if we already knew that. Like, we already know that you got a Jack Steel, like, we, that's a given. I'm just, cause I was talking to him for a while, and we were talking about lifting, we were talking about this, and, and then finally, you know, I got to like, so what do you think it is? And he's like, I take krill oil. This was before, and I was like, okay. Sometimes when somebody tells you something, you're, you just look at the guy, and when they give that much weight to it.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like, okay, we're going, we're going with that. I'm like, and what's cool is, that's, that's, I definitely, I definitely felt the, the difference in my. Joints.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:10Jocko Willink?

  I don't know about my eyeballs.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Well, you know.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  Although I don't wear glasses at this point.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, there it is. Proof is in the pudding.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's something.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not nothing. That's for sure. And the same way you, you, um, well, not in the same way, but slightly similar way you had the power lifter guy talk about krill oil. My father-in-law, as I've mentioned before, told me about krill, way better than fish oil.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  You know, he's telling me, or.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  But was he jacked?

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, he wasn't, isn't jacked. And here, this is part of the whole story, which kind of is gonna kind of feed into your point. No, he is not jacked at all. In fact, me and him go lift, bruh, this guy shouldn't even be in the same gym with me. He should be in the gym across the street.

• 1:23:50Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna hear this podcast?

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  I don't care, cause it's absolutely a hundred percent sure.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Not really doing a good job building that relationship with the family.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, you'll, you'll, you'll see the moral and yeah, I think it will. I think it will. Anyway, so no, not jacked. The answer is no. Um, he can swim for ever, ever. In fact, he goes in Hawaii, Minn, Maui waters with the, you know, the web hands, you know, for swimming.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Some bodyboarders use them sometimes. It's, they're just web hands.

• 1:24:16Jocko Willink?

  Spongers.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Um, he doesn't, he's not a sponger, but he's a swimmer. So he'll just swim hour. Boom, just swimming. Anyway. He'd always say, you know, krill oil, all this stuff. But yeah, he's not jacked. He don't lift. Like, why? Okay, you take krill oil and you get your X, Y, Z results. Cool. I don't want those X, Y, Z results. Those results that you're essentially benefiting from, apparently. Don't apply to my goals at all. Exactly right. So I'm like, okay, cool. I get it. Health nut. He's a health nut. He's into health.

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  That's a positive thing.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  No, it's not bad. There's, there is worse things to be a nut about. I'll tell you that. Health is a good thing. Anyway, he's into health.

• 1:24:53Jocko Willink?

  You think it's a little bit better to be a health nut that's jacked?

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna disagree. So, you know, for years, I'm like, cool, good for the info. Yeah. Then you come along and you're like, yeah, krill oil. Boom, next day, I'm on the krill oil, literally next day. And so of course, he's been saying it the whole time or whatever. But at the end of the day, he's right. He's absolutely right.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  He was right.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  So the moral of the story is, you can be right and not jacked.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I gotta kind of separate, you know, my, what do you call, I gotta detach. This is what I gotta do, you know, like an older guy with the ability to do the things and at the health level he's at, I do want for myself, regardless of how much weights I can lift or can't lift. That's what I want, that's what you want.

• 1:25:40Jocko Willink?

  General health, yeah.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, big time. And here's the thing, I didn't think indirectly as well, because the better your joints feel, especially as you get older, but just in life, regardless of how old you are, the better your joints are functioning, the more you're gonna be able to lift. Or mountain climb, or ride bike.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Or compete in badminton.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Badminton.

• 1:26:02Jocko Willink?

  How do you say that?

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Badminton.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, compete in that.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  That's true, bro.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Don't be all stiff.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  You don't need tennis or badminton elbow, you know, for, anyway, krill oil, that's the one, omega threes, and then you have discipline, right? And that's where your brain, memory, cognitive things, so they play into each other, you see what I'm saying? So the joint warfare has the brain stuff and the joint stuff. Krill oil has the joint stuff.

• 1:26:24Jocko Willink?

  I had a really good day at jiu-jitsu the other day, and I was talking to Dave Burke on my way home from jiu-jitsu.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  Good deal, Dave.

• 1:26:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good deal, Dave. And I was like, I was, you know, you said, oh, yeah, I trained today. I was like, I had a really good day. At that jiu-jitsu. He's like, what does that mean? I'm like, oh, it just means, you know, like, just getting after, just, and I realized that the past, anyways, I realized that I've been taking like, three scoops of discipline prior to training.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Okay, alright.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Is that illegal?

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, arguably, it could be, it should be, maybe, yeah. Well, it depends on what you mean by fair. Cause if you're going in to compete with your training partners, which you do from time to time, let's face it, then yeah, it's a little bit of an advantage, we'll say. Fair? No, it's actually, it's fair. Andy, or whoever you go in to train with, Dean, me, we could take three things of discipline.

• 1:27:17Jocko Willink?

  If you wanted to.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Wanted to, it's fair, it's fair. In fact, I recommend, take three things of discipline, boom, there it is, discipline, cognitive enhancing, so they all play

• 1:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  with each other.

• 1:27:27Jocko Willink?

  That's important.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Very important, I think, regardless of how much you can lift.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Also, milk.

• 1:27:37Jocko Willink?

  Molk.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  What is milk? What is that?

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Who, someone just asked me about milk. And the best thing about when people ask you what milk is, is you get it, you get a chance to do the routine. Right? You get a chance to do the routine. When someone's like, what's milk? What's that? What's milk?

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Jocko Willink?

  And you're allowed, you get to do the routine, which is, what's milk? Oh, it's milk.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  That's the routine.

• 1:28:00Jocko Willink?

  That's the routine. You're like, well, what is it? It's milk. No, it's milk. You want some kind of an explanation? You're like, no, no, it's, it's milk.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Common sense, really. After you say that, it's, you just take common sense from there and boom, clear.

• 1:28:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  That's my goal. My goal is that it ends up in the Oxford English Dictionary.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Xerox.

• 1:28:20Jocko Willink?

  And then if someone doesn't know what it is, they can just go look it up.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, look it up. In the dictionary, by the way. Yeah.

• 1:28:26Jocko Willink?

  That's my goal.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Like Google, is Google in there for like a verb?

• 1:28:29Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  It's a verb.

• 1:28:30Jocko Willink?

  Google is in a verb, as a verb. Yeah, go Google that.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, so.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  So go Google milk.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's there, you'll find it.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, you will.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  You'll know what it is.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:28:39Jocko Willink?

  You'll know that it's tasty. The guy that said, hey, I, I, I don't use protein powders. But does it taste that good that I should just get it anyways? My answer was a hundred percent resounding, absolutely.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  You just wanna have a, a really good dessert, get milk.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Jocko Willink?

  Peanut butter's coming.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:28:58Jocko Willink?

  Dave Burke is, Dave Burke is on the path to, uh, to order all, all the peanut butter chocolate anyways.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Oh, the whole supply.

• 1:29:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he wants the whole supply.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Not a bad idea. Shoot, I thought about that. But yeah, so yeah, if you don't know, milk, look, I'm gonna violate some terminology scenarios here. Milk is protein powder.

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  It's actually milk.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. The best protein powder. That tastes like a dessert, straight up does though, not just claims and doesn't. It does, straight up.

• 1:29:29Jocko Willink?

  Literally. And we will have Mulk at the Immersion Camp this summer, up in Maine. On Echo Lake, Layers. August 26th through September 2nd, two sessions. Come up there, I'll be there. Leif will be there, Echo Charles will be there. And apparently you say you will be rolling.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, limited.

• 1:29:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, limited rolling from, from, which sounds like predetermined excuses, which is fine.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, here, okay, alright, well, let me lay it out then, playboy. Uh, the, the gi I'll be doing less of because gi has a lot of gripping, gripping, pulling. So pulling, I'm really, bruh, I'm out of pulling, I can't do pulling. Very limited, maybe with one hand. So I'll do gi, but it's like, okay, now I'm rolling literally with one hand.

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  By the way, Dean Lister will be there.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  Dean Lister will be there, and if you want to learn from someone, he is one of the top people in the world to learn from. And I know that's a bold statement. I know it is. He's got a mind that understands not only the mechanics

• 1:30:30Jocko Willink?

  and the concepts of jiu-jitsu. At a, at a, one of the highest levels of anyone I've ever communicated with, but also knows how to express those concepts in a very clear way. So, Immersion Camp,

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  August 26th through September 2nd. Go and come up there, we'll see you up there. Good place to, and we will have Mulk there.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Lots of it.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  And Dean's good at, at kinda taking the concept and really clarifying the concept, even separate from the actual move. I mean, the move's always attached, but...

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  Dean says things sometimes that I run over and take note, take like a little, a little note on my, uh, on my phone.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Can remember that one.

• 1:31:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, that's a good one. And usually I say, usually I'm thinking I'm gonna, when we, when he comes on the podcast, I'm I'm gonna have him talk about those things, so.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Open him up.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Also, good way to support is the fact, or on top of the fact, or as part of the fact, that Jaco has his own store. It's called Jaco's Store. Go to Jacostore.com for these items. It's where you can get rash guards.

• 1:31:31Jocko Willink?

  You can definitely get rash guards.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Yes, get after it.

• 1:31:36Jocko Willink?

  T-shirts, a bunch of T-shirts.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, the ones that say discipline equals freedom.

• 1:31:40Jocko Willink?

  New T-shirt coming?

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  New T-shirts are coming.

• 1:31:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, T-shirts with plural.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Two of them, if, yeah, if you're interested in the T-shirts, the ones that say discipline equals freedom. It's a good one. I get

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  revealed how deep the expression discipline equals freedom goes. Like, almost da- not daily, but let's say once a week.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  You understand it at a deep level.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Deeper level.

• 1:32:08Jocko Willink?

  It's presented to reveal to you how important it is.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  Yes, how much, even more than I previously thought the week before, okay? It's almost like it has no, no limit to the layers.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty important, yeah. And you, actually, I've been sporting the discipline equals freedom hat, the trucker hat. So, and I also have the death beanie. Get some.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a good one.

• 1:32:33Jocko Willink?

  So you got, those are available. Check.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Yep, um, yes, and also hoodies.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Heavy hoodies and light hoodies. I know, bruh, I know, I know, I know, I know. But I have been getting, uh, feedback online and offline, by the way, for the light hoodie.

• 1:32:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, people just love them, huh?

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Bruh, they want the light hoodie, man. They wanna represent, you know, like I say.

• 1:33:00Jocko Willink?

  What's up Hawaii?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, there, there are times, many times, all them, everybody, and.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  All the Ohana in Hawaii's hitting you up.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  The Kamaaina, all them, yes. And, because in Hawaii and other places here, let's face it, there are times where it's like, hey, like yesterday was one of them. It's like, bruh, it's kinda, it's kinda cold, but it's not cold, it's kinda cold. If you wear a T-shirt, it's like, man, this environment, weather is offering, is offering, no, see, no.

• 1:33:32Jocko Willink?

  No death core.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Negative.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  Negative, nope, that's not, to me, especially if you're at like a little gathering. Social situation. It's maybe, uh, it could be looked at as paramount, but here's what it is. If, if the, if the weather, whatever, environment is offering slight discomfort.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  You know why I'm laughing so hard right now? Cause everything you're saying is things that I wouldn't allow myself or anyone in my immediate family to, to say.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  To admit, yeah, I get it. You know, I got it. It doesn't make it any more. It doesn't make it any more true. That's the thing. So, hey, look, I mean, you were cruising, right? Outside, maybe not you.

• 1:34:13Jocko Willink?

  I get it, dude.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  I don't think you do. I don't think you do. That's the thing. If me and Dave Burke were cruising, I would die.

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  Maybe he'd want a little lightweight sweater.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  It's just maybe three degrees too cold. Yeah, you can suck it up, but what? Why you gotta endure discomfort at times when it's not necessary? Unless you're exercising your tolerance for discomfort.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  Which you should be doing.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Which you should at all point, at all times. That's what you're saying.

• 1:34:36Jocko Willink?

  Affirmative.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  No, okay, me and Dave Burke, we don't agree with this. So, you put on a regular hoodie or heavy or even a medium hoodie after what? Five minutes, six minutes, we worked out earlier today, whatever. That heat, it's too hot. So, thick hoodie, too hot. No hoodie, too cold.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Boom, light hoodie, perfect, cause you don't know about that perfection. Uh, you know, dichotomy, man, you know, the zone, balance the zones.

• 1:35:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, light hoodie, this one equals freedom.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  That's the freedom part. Boom. How about that? Women's stuff as well, by the way. Women's T-shirts, specifically for the ladies.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  And tank tops. Boom. Rash guards are kinda for everybody, so boom.

• 1:35:18Jocko Willink?

  Can also subscribe to this podcast.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, leave reviews. So I can read them and laugh because you guys are really good at writing, uh, cool reviews that crack me up. So, thank you for that.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Stitcher as well, by the way.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget about the YouTube. You can subscribe to YouTube too. And that's where you'll see Echo Charles's videos.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:43Jocko Willink?

  We'll say that's, we'll say you've got some skills in life. That's one of your paramount skills, making cool videos.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:35:51Jocko Willink?

  Agree or disagree?

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, sure.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  That's not good. I'm putting you on the spot to not be humble. So I won't do that. Echo makes good videos.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  And they're on YouTube and you subscribe to the channel.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Choco Podcast YouTube channel.

• 1:36:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, there you go.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Very easy to find, very basic, very subscribable. Anyway, yeah, good way to support for sure. Also, some excerpts on there. You know, little lessons from this podcast directly. And, you know, so sometimes you don't want to listen to, let's say you listen to podcast number 101. And you're like, hey, there's some good stuff in there, but should I listen to the whole, you know, however many hours of the podcast for that one lesson that I want to kind of revisit? Should you do that? Some of us don't have that kind of time, so I'm gonna put out some excerpts from all the podcasts, most of them. So, yeah, go on there, subscribe, get a little alert when we put one up. If that's the one you want to listen to, boom, listen to it. Good way to support too, by the way. Also, Onnit.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Onnit.com slash Choco. This is where I get all my kettlebells. I won't say all my socks, but a lot of socks. That's where I get them from. I know, sounds weird, but man. It's one of those things. Sometimes you appreciate the socks you're wearing, especially when you're going through the airport TSA, boom, you gotta take off your shoes, boom, hit them with the Onnit socks. Anyway, fitness gear mainly, I think. That's, that's what I go. And for the information too, by the way. Like kettlebells, when I started kettlebells, I heard good things, you know, I started the kettlebells. They're kind of, they're intimidating, so boom, go on Onnit.com. They have all the info on there, little things about form, little workouts. Really good, good on maces too.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Are they called battle maces? Just maces, right? They're steel. Sticks.

• 1:37:40Jocko Willink?

  Clubs.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  Clubs that look like, you know, the juggling clubs.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  You can't juggle them, that's the thing.

• 1:37:47Jocko Willink?

  If you could juggle those, you'd be a, you'd be a complete badass. If you could juggle those 20-pounders, they're freaking heavy.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're heavier than they sound when you say 20 pounds.

• 1:37:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, no, no, I'm telling you. I'm telling you, they're heavy.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  The only way they're 20 pounds. The only way they're even, they can even justify saying 20 pounds is when you actually put them on the scale. And the number happens to say 20. Otherwise, it's not 20.

• 1:38:12Jocko Willink?

  You think they were not made out of metal, but some, you know, something from outer space?

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  If you brought them to the airport and you know, when you're checking in, you know, and you put the, your luggage on the scale and you know, you were pushing it. You know that it may be over 50 pounds and you're like nervous, right? And then it doesn't hit 50 pounds. If you've got that mace, you have that mace in your hand, you're about to put that on the scale, you know, you know, oh, this is going over. I'm paying that extra overage, uh, uh, fee. That's what it feels like. I'm sorry, as far as the, the mace goes. Anyway, happens to be a good thing to work out with, but you grab that thing, you're gonna be like, okay, what kind of workout I'm gonna do this? Boom, on it, dot com slash Jaco. Look up the, the workout, you got it.

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Also Psychological Warfare, it's an album that has various tracks on it that you can play to push you through moments of weakness. And we are, we are formulating Psychological Warfare 2.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  All your excuses are lies.

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  A work, a working title.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  Working title, working title, but it's a pretty good title.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  Also Jaco White Tea. Here's the thing, I'm a tea drinker now. I don't know if you know that. I'm a tea drinker now. I drink tea regularly. I think that's kind of all it takes really, but.

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  There was a whole thing when I, I didn't realize, I didn't know that tea drinker had like some stereotypical thing behind it.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  So when I came out with white tea, people were like, oh, that's really weird that you'd make tea, cause they think I'd, I'd be making whatever. Mole.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they think I'd make mole, but they wouldn't think I'd make tea.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  You don't strike me as a tea drinker.

• 1:39:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I didn't realize that. So I guess we're changing the paradigm and those stereotypes will not be expected to accept it anymore.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, agree.

• 1:39:56Jocko Willink?

  I drink tea and I'm proud.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Maybe you're changing, you're just evolving the stereotype.

• 1:40:01Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Cause you are a tea drinker.

• 1:40:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, straight up.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  You've been drinking tea since day one.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  Not really since day one, but since I figured out.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Day two?

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Day two. There you go. Boom. Yeah. So Jaco White Tea, pomegranate, all organic certified, by the way. Cause you know, Jaco cares about that kind of stuff. In the bags and in the can, big deal, in the can.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  Most tea drinkers care about certified organic, I think.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it what?

• 1:40:26Jocko Willink?

  That's another stereotype.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  So GMO tea, no good.

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no good.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Ah, we don't like it.

• 1:40:31Jocko Willink?

  I will not put that in my body.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. Agree.

• 1:40:35Jocko Willink?

  You get it on Amazon. And in fact, I think that's the only place you can get it.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Actually.

• 1:40:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, it is the only place you can get it right now. And important fact, there's dry white tea that you put in a brew. And then there's the new thing, which is in a can.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  And one thing that's fired up right now is people that are replacing the 12, or not the 12, but they're replacing the four energy drinks. Which actually give you no energy. They actually sap your energy and crush your soul and turn you into a, a, a, a health disaster. People are replacing that crap with Jocko White Tea.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:11Jocko Willink?

  In a can. One day it's gonna be everywhere. That's my suspicion.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:15Jocko Willink?

  You're just gonna be, and people will just be.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Well, you know the.

• 1:41:18Jocko Willink?

  Get your Jocko White Tea on. You don't speak enough. Oh, and also available in Canada. I know a lot of Canadian folks say, where is this stuff? Why can't I get it up here? So it's now available, Amazon Canada.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna put it on the store too.

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  And I've been working on it, you know, and we're almost there. So check back with the store, Choco Store.

• 1:41:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's a good place to have it.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Boom, they can get the tea wherever. I don't care if you're in.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  Wherever Choco products are sold.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Bruh, that's where they're sold.

• 1:41:44Jocko Willink?

  Uh, speaking of Amazon, books. I got some books.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Good, yeah. One, two are called Way of the Warrior Kid. Way of the Warrior Kid, From Wimpy to Warrior, right? That's the, what do you call it? After the colon, that part?

• 1:41:58Jocko Willink?

  It's the subtitle, I think.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  There it is, Wimpy to Warrior. And then the second one is Mark's Mission. Really clever evolution of problems to be solved in both. So now you have the ethos, okay, so how I would, I did it, do it, is I read the first one and I just keep repeating to my kids. Kid's five, my daughter, oldest is five. Anyway, before bedtime, boom, and then repeating. Now we got two in the rotation, boom. So you can, they're chronological, right? Boom. It is good, very clever, very un, what do you call it when you assume something about somebody and it reveals that there's like more to this person?

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you assumed I was.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:42:37Jocko Willink?

  Not capable of writing Way of the Warrior Kid, while I actually did write it.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Very incapable. Um, but yeah, it's a good one. Also, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Field manual, best kind of manual, in my opinion. But this is like a manual for life, I think. It's like a very basic backbone for life. If you start there, you'll be, you'll be solid.

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  I'm always stoked when I meet someone that's comes up and is like, "Bro, field manual."

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  "I'm on the path." And like, they're not kidding, they're on the path.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  Crack that thing open, read two pages.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:11Jocko Willink?

  Read two pages to prep mentally for the day, it will have impact.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:16Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to listen to those pages, it's not available on Audible. It's available on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play as an MP3 album with tracks. That's where you can get it. Of course, you can also get Extreme Ownership. Extreme Ownership, you can get the, the, the hardcover book.

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  And you can also get the audible, that one, you can get the audible version. And the audible version is Leif and I reading that book.

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's who's reading it, that's who's doing the narration. And then also, Leif and I have a book called The Dichotomy of Leadership, which I talk about dichotomy all the time on this podcast. The reason I talk about it is because it's hard to, I won't even say master, it's hard to even get a grip on that dichotomy, the different dichotomies inside of leadership. And so, Leif and I knew that we had to go into a more granular level of explanation of the dichotomy of leadership, and that's what this new book is. It comes out September 25th. And also for leadership training live inside your organization, whatever that organization might be, check out my company, Echelon Front Leadership Consulting.

• 1:44:30Jocko Willink?

  We solve problems through leadership. That's that. We have one more muster in 2018. The muster is a leadership conference. We have one more in 2018, it is in San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. October 17th and 18th. All the other ones that we've done have sold out. If you want to come, get your ticket, you can get it at extremeownership.com. And also for current uniformed personnel, so people in the military, law enforcement, border patrol, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, we have Roll Call Number One, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. That's also, you can also register for that at extremeownership.com.

• 1:45:16Jocko Willink?

  That's one day focused on the dynamic leadership environment.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  So it's like a muster more focused on the issues of first responders essentially. But it is essentially a muster. It's a muster like shorter.

• 1:45:32Jocko Willink?

  It's a shorter muster. It's more focused. It's a cheaper price point. And it's one day. There's less

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  amenities, right? So when you come to muster, everything's kind of kind of decked out, like the lunch meal is really good. The dinner is great. It's like decked out. It's taken to the highest level. The, the roll call is like, hey, we're here to get the information out to people that need it.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:00Jocko Willink?

  People that are in the field every day, whether it's in the military, whether it's on the beat as a cop, whether it's a firefighter, you know, for people that are on the job, people in uniform that we try and support. They need this leadership training. They asked for this leadership training. We needed to do it at a cheaper price point. Where can we save money and still get it done? There you go. That's what the, that's what the roll call is.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  But it's the same deal as far as there's no backstage.

• 1:46:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Situation. You're still in the game, talking to everybody the whole day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  I'll be there.

• 1:46:28Jocko Willink?

  No green room. And until we do see you

• 1:46:35Jocko Willink?

  big time at either the muster or the roll call or the immersion camp in Maine, if you want to roll with us virtually, we are all up on the interwebs on Twitter and Instagram and that's

• 1:46:54Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charleston. I am at Jocko Willink and to those of you in uniform

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  that wear the cloth of the nation, without you, this podcast and our freedom would not exist. So thank you to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, border patrol, other first responders. Thank you for keeping us safe while we sleep.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  And also to those in uniform, thanks to your families for their sacrifice. That is a hard job as well. And to everyone else,

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  thanks for listening, thanks for supporting, thanks for moving away from the darkness and toward the light.

• 1:47:43Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for fighting, thanks for getting after it, and most of all, thanks for living.

• 1:47:54Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.

• 1:47:59Jocko Willink?

  Out.