129: How to Lead and Win Using "The General Principles of War", by Fredrick The Great

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:09:45 - "The General Principles of War", by Fredrick The Great. 1:54:52 - Final Thoughts and take-aways. 1:55:55 - Support. 2:41:57 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 129 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  Cry had risen for the reserve and it must come as soon as possible.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  We ran what we could run. Our lieutenant colonel fell, killed almost at the first. Beyond this, we lost our major and indeed all of the officers but three.

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  Three only.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  We had crossed two successive ditches which lay in an orchard to the left of the first houses in and we were beginning to form in front of the village.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  But there was no standing of it.

• 0:55Jocko Willink?

  Besides the general cannon fire such as hardly can be imagined, there was also a rain of case shot upon this battalion of which I, as there was no colonel left, had to take command.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  A third battalion of the Royal Prussian Foot Guards, which had already made several of our regiments pass that same kind of muster, gave at a distance of eighty paces the liveliest fire upon us.

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  It stood as if on the parade ground, that third battalion.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  And waited for us without stirring.

• 1:38Jocko Willink?

  The Austrian regiment at our right hand could not get itself formed properly because the houses, it was standing thirty deep and sometimes its shots hit us in the back.

• 1:50Jocko Willink?

  On my left, the Austrian regiment ran its way and I was glad of that in comparison.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  By no method or effort could I get the dragoons who stood fifty yards to the rear of me to cut in a little and help me out.

• 2:08Jocko Willink?

  My soldiers, who were still tired from running, had no cannon support, were scattered, fewer in number, and were mainly fighting out of sullenness.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  It was more out of honor than the notion of doing good in the affair that prevented us from running off.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  Finally, two officers of the Grenadiers brought me what they still had. Some Hungarians, too, were luckily got together.

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  But at last, with all help and the remnants of my own brave battalion,

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  I drew back.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is a report from Charles Joseph Lamoral,

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  the prince, Prince de Lying, I believe is how you say it, who was a captain in the Austrian army fighting against the Prussians during the Seven Years' War. And that particular battle was the Battle of Luth, which took place on December 5, 1757,

• 3:30Jocko Willink?

  where the Austrians suffered about 22,000 casualties, about one-third of their forces.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  And that was at the hands of the Prussian army, who interestingly, had about half the number of troops as the Austrians.

• 3:51Jocko Willink?

  And the Prussian army was led by a guy by the name of King Frederick II, who became known as Frederick the Great.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  And you know, this type of fighting was,

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  it was brutal. And it's, it's sort of, is the classic vision of the old European infantry tactics, like what you picture, troops lined up by rank, marching forward to close with the enemy

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  in what often became just a test of will and courage.

• 4:35Jocko Willink?

  And whose will and whose courage was stronger, who would drive forward? And who was gonna back down, who was gonna run away? But on top of that will and courage, you also, there was still maneuvers happening out there. And the movements were centralized. But the maneuvers were still happening. And the battlefield still required there to be leadership. To maneuver these elements around, to assess what was happening. And then to drive the troops to get the job done. Leadership was absolutely required and one of the most respected leaders of this era was

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  the leader at that battle of the Prussians, Frederick the Great. Now Frederick the Great, interesting character. Born in seventeen twelve, his father Frederick William. And he seemed like one of those kind of tyrannical fathers that really pushed his son with extreme discipline and all that. And guess what? Young Frederick didn't like it. Didn't like it. Wasn't into that. You know what he was into? Music, literature, that's what he was into. And he actually plotted an escape to England. And he had a couple of his buddies help him out. Had a little plan, put the plan together. I'm gonna get away from my tyrannical dad

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  who's trying to, you know, turn me into this warmongering guy. And the plot got foiled. And the king actually captured, he captured one of the two friends that was helping young Frederick and then sentenced him to death. And young Frederick had to watch his friend who had tried to help him get beheaded. Yeah.

• 6:26Jocko Willink?

  And despite that, he eventually got on board with becoming a military leader and becoming king, and he gained a reputation for being extremely aggressive on the battlefield. And there's a good quote, I think Napoleon had a good quote about him, which was something along the lines of, if Frederick the Great was still here, we wouldn't be here. So he he got a lot of respect, and he led very successful campaigns all over Europe. He was he was known for having an extremely hard work ethic, strong work ethic. Interestingly, he woke up at either four or five o'clock in the morning, every morning. So he was

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  one of those guys. And another interesting thing, at a time when when the royals all over Europe and the world, when they kind of flaunted their riches, he wasn't like that. He was kind of like a low profile guy. He allowed free speech. He allowed people to even insult him, which was, you know, I mean, obviously, his old man didn't have any problem just tossing out the death sentence. But there was a story about him where there was like a poster hung up that someone had done a drawing that made him kind of look like a buffoon. And he was going through this village where this thing was hung up, and he kind of went to see what all this commotion, all these people were around, he went to see what all the commotion was about. And he saw this sign hanging up on a post. And his comment was, hey, lower that sign down a little bit so people don't hurt their

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  necks while they're looking at it. He's one of those guys. And, you know, so he kind of had his ego in check, which is, which is definitely good. And his tactics, like I said, I mean, there's still, even when you had these rigid sort of ranks in battles, you still had to maneuver the elements around the battlefield. And his tactics were based in mobility and being able to move quickly, being able to move more quickly than the enemy. And he focused on drill and more drilling. And this is another interesting thing. In his opinion, he, cause drill, I don't know if you know this, but when we say drill in the military, we're talking about, you ever seen like a drill team with the rifles and they march and everything's perfect?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  A Few Good Men at the beginning, remember that movie? At the beginning, it's a, everyone's in for like.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is. I haven't, I can't remember that. I've definitely seen the movie, but I can't remember that particular part. But yeah, that's what drill is. So when people talk about drill, that's what they're talking about. And he was saying, you know, he was of the opinion that people often mis-stook drill for the art of war. He's, no, they're two different things and, and they're important. And there's a reason why you do drill and it teaches you certain things. It teaches you a lot about discipline. It teaches you about responding to orders quickly. It teaches you how to work together as a team. So there's, there's definitely a reason for drill, but that is not the art of war at all. So at age 35, he was, he had been sick and he was recovering from the illness, but he was, I guess he was still a little bit down, so he was doing what he could.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  In, in this case, in this case, it meant that he wrote down some, some of his principles. And the first version of it was called the instruction of Frederick the Great to his generals. And that piece was kind of revised and the title was eventually changed to general principles of war. And we're going to look at that book today and see what we can learn from Frederick the Great. And I was actually, I'm always surprised at how much I have to learn and how much I can learn from people that fought several hundred years ago and led several hundred years ago.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  It's amazing. It's amazing what you can learn from these folks. All right. So here we go. Going to the book.

• 10:11Jocko Willink?

  This section is called the capabilities of Prussian troops and their particular merit. The greatest force of the Prussian army resides in their wonderful regularity, which long custom has made a habit in exact obedience and in the bravery of the troops.

• 10:34Jocko Willink?

  The discipline of these troops now evolved into habit has such effect that in the greatest confusion of an action and the most evident perils, their disorder is still more orderly than the good order of their enemies. So, so there you go. This is, this is discipline equals freedom in whatever seventeen something. If you think about what he's saying, his troops were so disciplined that even when there's total chaos going on, in their, in their worst state, they still are more squared away than the enemy is because their discipline is so strong.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Consequently, small confusions are redressed in a moment and all evolutions are made promptly. Doesn't matter what you do to them. Confusion, no problem. We got discipline.

• 11:24Jocko Willink?

  A general of other troops could be surprised in circumstances in which he would not be if commanding Prushens, since he will find resources in the speed with which they form and maneuver in the presence of the enemy. And this is something that I say all the time. Where's that? Like in a SEAL platoon, in my SEAL platoon, in my SEAL task unit, in an army or Marine Corps infantry platoon, the discipline that they have gives them more freedom, freedom on the battlefield because they can react to things quicker. That's exactly what we're talking about. Exactly, exact same thing Frederick the Great realized. Back to the book. Prushens' discipline renders these troops capable of executing the most difficult maneuvers such as traversing a wood in battle

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  without losing their files or distances, advancing in close order at double time, forming with promptness, reversing their direction suddenly to fall on the flank of the enemy, gaining an advantage by a forced march, and finally in surpassing the enemy in constancy and fortitude.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom. I'm glad he didn't use that title. He could have. He could have. Now, he's got something in here and when I, when I initially read this part,

• 12:40Jocko Willink?

  I was like, oh, well, that's a little bit off of my thoughts. But he comes back to it later and, and we'll get to that part. Remind me, actually, when he, when he get to this part, talking about decentralized command. Cause here he talks about something that's a little bit opposite of what I usually say. So here we go back to the book. Obedience to the officers and subordination is so exact that no one ever questions an order. Hours are observed exactly. And however little a general knows how to make himself obeyed, he is always sure to be. No one ever reasons about the possibility of an enterprise. And finally, its accomplishment is never disparit of. So what he's saying there is, you know, like everyone just listens to me. That's what I do. Everyone just listens. And no one questions the orders.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  And we're going to get to later where he actually, there's a two things. Number one, he really takes care of his people. So they listen to him because he takes care of them. It's not because he barks orders of them. It's not, it's that he really cares about them and he takes care of them. And the other thing he talks and he'll talk later about this is how getting input from people is important. So even though he lays that out there, I think that's almost like a little macho. He's, he's throwing some macho. Hey, look at me. Everyone just listens to me.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it is. I don't know if you noticed this when we had Colonel Fife on the podcast and I was talking about this with Dave Burke the other day.

• 14:02Jocko Willink?

  When we first were, were talking with Colonel Fife, you know, he was saying, yeah, well, you know, everyone just did what I told them to do. And I was kind of like, wow, you know, that, that, I always say that that doesn't really work, you know, and so I'm thinking of this to myself. And he says, yeah, people just tell them what to do and they do it. That's what made my group, my unit so good. And I was like, wow. And then he went into it and when he went into it, all the answers were there. He was like, no, no, no, I cared about my guys. And then he went into, I don't know if you remember this, he went into this part about where he said, look, if you're in a tank and you tell someone to get out of the tank, when the tanks are hitting, bullets are hitting the tank. Yeah, and go fix the track. You think they're gonna do that just because you told them to? No, they're not. Not if you don't take care of them, not if they don't.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  So even though he initially said, kinda like what Frederick the Great is saying, hey, people are just gonna listen to me. Both saying the same kinda thing, but both of them have a lot more depth behind that reaction from their troops. So when, whenever somebody hears something like that, it's like, no, it's not true. It doesn't work. As a matter of fact, there's a chapter in the new book coming out that Leif and I wrote. And Leif's talking about this one CEO that we're working with, that's kinda like quoting Patton. Like, discipline is the ultimate. And same thing, Leif's talking to the guy like, hey, that's not the way the military works. And he believed that when he would hear this kinda thing, this is like a macho thing to say, right? Is that the right word? I don't know if that's the right word. It's a, it's a bold statement. Hey, my troops just listen to me. Right?

• 15:30Jocko Willink?

  It's not true. There's so much more depth that makes that actually happen.

• 15:38Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book, "The Prussians are superior to their enemies in constancy, since the officers, who have no other profession nor other fortune to hope from except their arms, animate themselves with ambition and a gallantry beyond all test. Because the soldier has a confidence in himself and because he makes it a point of honor to never give way." So, I just, we were working with a company, uh, doing a, doing an FTX training, you know, so we're out in the field. And I was talking to them about cover and move. And I said, if you're walking while you're covering your field of fire, from a level of one to 10, how well can you do it?

• 16:24Jocko Willink?

  And you know, people are like, I don't know, five, six, because when you're walking, you can't really, you know, you gotta look where you're walking, gotta look what everyone else is doing. You, you can't just look at your field of fire. You can't just look at your field of fire, which is where you're looking for threats. I said, when you do cover and move and you stop and you get behind some cover and then you just, your whole job is just to look, how good do you do, one to 10? And everyone's like, 10. And I said, yeah. And and that's kind of the same thing here where you get this guy. When you have people that their whole life is just dedicated to one thing.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, then they're gonna do it good.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  These these uh Prussian officers who had no nothing else going for them other than. Being in the military.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna do a good job of it.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  That's why sometimes people ask me, should I start another job while I'm on active duty? And quite frankly, my answer is no.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:12Jocko Willink?

  It's if you do, it's gotta be so on the side. That it doesn't interfere at all with your job. As being a being in the military. It's just too hard to balance two things. Can you give a little advice? Can you maybe set something up on the side? Yeah, but dedicate focus on focus on what you're doing a hundred percent. There's nothing else that I don't I just don't. I don't see that as working out very well.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:38Jocko Willink?

  I say just focus on what you're doing. That's my opinion.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  Some people pull it off. I've never known anyone that pulled it off. Well, maybe I could think of some. Most people that had some kind of side gig going on. That the the military was their side gig too. You know, like they weren't just in the game.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 17:56Jocko Willink?

  They they they yeah. Like, no, do do your job.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  Do it well.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:03Jocko Willink?

  That doesn't go with if you're working for some corporation. Then you can pull it off, right? You can have you can do something on the side.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Depends on the job, but I don't know. It seems like if you're the boss of of, let's say you had a team, right? And they were like, you know, they're, you know, productivity and all, you know, all this stuff. And then you find out one team member is basically splitting his time. You know, I don't know, doing something else. It's kind of like, whoa, we're all over here trying to.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  If it's interfering, but most jobs aren't 24 hours a day. It's not really even true. Yeah, you know what? I think you can pull it off. You can pull it off way easier in any other job than in the military.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  You can have something going on the side.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  Because the military is the the job where it's like, yeah, 24 hours a day.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you, are you saying in a combat scenario?

• 18:48Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm talking about just in general.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  You know.

• 18:50Jocko Willink?

  Just in general. And I shouldn't say that, you know, there's a lot of jobs when I work with companies, there's people that are, they're doing 24 hours a day, they're in the game.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  So if you're in one of those kinds of jobs, don't get a side job.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And aren't there like?

• 19:00Jocko Willink?

  Or set yourself up properly that you can do it. It's hard to pull off, man. It's hard to pull off.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  But aren't there jobs in the military that are, that are pretty mellow?

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  There are.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Where you can come in, you can clock in and, you know?

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  There are. There are. And I guess if you're doing that, maybe you can do it.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're thinking of you, like you're.

• 19:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I'm also thinking about like guys in, guys in the SEAL teams.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I mean.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  The guys in the SEAL teams that had some kind of side hustle going on were generally, they, they weren't fully in the game, you know, that's just the way it is. Maybe there's some guys that I didn't even know about.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  That did it.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  But most people, like, hey, if you're out buying houses and flipping houses, you know, you can kind of do that when you're in the military. Cause you're doing some hard work on the weekends and that's cool. Get, get a little rental property going. Hey, right on. I did that.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't, it wasn't, it literally interfered zero.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  With my primary job, which was getting off.

• 19:53Jocko Willink?

  All right, back to the book. Many have been seen to fight even when wounded since the organization in general, proud of its past brave engagements, considers that any soldier who has shown the least cowardice in action affronts it. I like that. So you have that attitude, you have that, that culture inside your organization. It's a real thing. We don't back down. We keep fighting hard. That's what we do. All right, now he talks a little bit about projects of campaign. One should know one's enemies, their alliances, their resources, and the nature of their country in order to plan a campaign.

• 20:35Jocko Willink?

  One should know what to expect of one's friends, what resources one has oneself, and see the future effects to determine what one has to fear or hope from political maneuvers. We've heard this over and over again. Understand your enemy.

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, extravagant projects of campaign are worthless. I call extravagant those which require you to make penetrations or those which reduce you to a too rigid defense. Penetrations are worthless because in pushing too far into the enemy's country, you weaken yourself. Your communications become very difficult to maintain on account of their length and in order to make assured conquests, it is necessary always to proceed within the rules. And here's the rules. To advance, establish yourself solidly. To advance again, to establish yourself the same. And always to prepare to have within your reach of your army, your resources and your

• 21:41Jocko Willink?

  requirements. So there he's saying, make sure you're ready. And if you've got to extend yourself, don't extend yourself too far. That's, that's what he's saying. That's, that's very good advice. Now, he also says this, now, so that's going on the offense. Now, there's a dichotomy here, which we talk about dichotomy a lot. There's a dichotomy here because he's saying, hey, look, you've got to be careful going on super, super far distant offense and extending yourself too far. But then he says this, back to the book. Projects of absolute defensive are not practicable because while wishing to close yourself

• 22:21Jocko Willink?

  in strong camps, the enemy will envelop you, deprive you of your sustenance from the rear, and oblige you to lose ground while disheartening your troops. So while you're digging in, guess what? The enemy's going to maneuver on you and cut, and cut you off. Now, back to the book. I prefer to this conduct of the offensive with the hazard of losing the battle, since this will not be more fatal than your retreat and your timid defensive. So he's saying there, he'd rather be aggressive, be lean towards being more aggressive than leading towards being more defensive. And he, and he says why? In the one, you lose ground by withdrawing and soldiers by desertion and you have no hope.

• 23:06Jocko Willink?

  So if you go on the defense, that's what happens. You lose ground, you lose soldiers, and you have no hope.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  Now, on the offense, he says, in the other, you do not risk more, and if you are fortunate, you can hope for the most brilliant success. What is he saying there? Attack. That's what he's saying. I agree with that.

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  Again, there's a dichotomy there, because he's saying attack, but the previous paragraph, he's saying, don't overextend yourself. This is why we're writing a book called The Dichotomy of Leadership, because you have to find that balance. All right. Back to the book. I am now coming to what I call the defensive, which turns into the offensive. The greatest secret of war, and the masterpiece of a skillful general, is to starve his enemy.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  Hunger exhausts men more surely than courage, and you will succeed with less risk than by fighting. But since it is very rare that a war is ended by the capture of a depot, and matters are only decided by great battles, it is necessary to employ all these means to attain this object.

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  Starving your enemy. You know what I was thinking? Interestingly, you know what I was thinking about when that popped into my mind? Is when you're, when you're dealing with relationships, one of the best ways to, like, win in a relationship scenario is you starve the other person of attention.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  What do you mean win?

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  So, to, to, yeah, to win. So like, when you, what's the worst thing you can do to your kid when your kid is doing something bad?

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Give it attention?

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the worst thing you can do is, yeah, is give it attention. The best thing you can do is starve it of attention. I just thought that was kind of interesting. And, and another thing is like in jujitsu.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  You're you starve the person of energy, right? You you make them use their energy and once they're out of energy, they're done.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Gotcha. Yeah, yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess it depends on what you mean by win the relationship.

• 25:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess I didn't really phrase that correctly, but I was thinking of what we generally do. Let me clarify that. I think I just figured it out a little bit. What we generally do is if we've got a problem in a relationship, what do we do? We go to fight it. We go to war. The better thing may be just to starve, starve it a little bit. How do you starve it? Starve it from attention, right? Like we talked about, I think it was last week. There's someone asked like, how do you get vengeance? And I was like, hey, the best thing, the best vengeance to give is starve them of attention.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  Don't even give it to them. You're gonna, that's the win. So I guess it's not good to put that in perspective with your kids, right?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Right, or relationship.

• 25:57Jocko Willink?

  That's not a good thing.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Any battle scenario in a relationship, sure. I get, yeah, I think, I think you're correct.

• 26:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you could definitely go too far with that.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, no, I'm not saying starve. I guess if you're, if you're talking about I guess more than anything else, I'm not even saying it's good or bad. I'm saying it's something to be aware of, that you can use attention as a tool to help you in in your engagements, in relationships, in business, in life, in family, whatever. You can use that attention as a tool.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, then I think that's put more appropriately.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Cause in a

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  Don't pay attention to your kids.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause when you say relationship, you automatically assume wife, kids, girlfriend, boyfriend, kind of thing.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  I don't automatically assume that.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was what it sounds like.

• 26:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Any, any battle situation where like, yeah.

• 26:49Jocko Willink?

  Any combative scenario.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Combative scenario, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying it's another tool. I'm glad you

• 26:55Speaker 01

  It's a good one, by the way.

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  It's a good one. It is a good one.

• 26:59Jocko Willink?

  All right, here he talks about, and and by the way, obviously I'm cutting out big chunks. And what's interesting is he talks about, he, for each one of these little principles that he talks about, he actually goes through specific historical battles that happened and how they unfolded. But if you wanna read those, you should get the book. But

• 27:25Jocko Willink?

  I wanted to get through all the principles, so here we go. Just kind of skipping the battles and his battles, they're not like these first person kind of accounts that are really moving, they're more just historical perspective. Hey, here's, and he wasn't even at all of them. You know, some of he's saying, this is what happened in this place and this is what happened in this other place. Alright, he's talking here about rest camps. "The duty of the general in these sort of camps is to restore his army and personally to oversee order and discipline. The cavalry and infantry should be visited often and examined to determine if the first is well nourished and if these two corps are complete."

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  So, take care of your people. "Likewise, the troops should be exercised frequently, cavalry as well as infantry, and the general should be, should often be present to praise the ones, to criticize the others, and to see with his own eyes that the orders which are found in my institution military are observed exactly.

• 28:30Jocko Willink?

  The camp guards should be visited to see if they are vigilant, if the officer is attentive, or if he is negligent, to be extremely strict so that the mounted sentries will not allow anyone to enter the camp without examining and announcing him, and to prevent desertion by all means that I have indicated previously." He talks about, one of the problems he has is people deserting and he goes into how do you stop people from deserting? It's, that's what he's referring to there, things like keeping everyone busy, making sure that they're well fed, he talks about those kind of things, so that's what he's referring to.

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  Got to exercise them frequently, got to keep them busy. And you have to inspect, you have to get eyes on, he says with your own eyes. So when you're the leader, you just can't throw that order out there and expect it's all going to happen the way you expected it to, not going to happen, you got to go inspect it with your own eyes.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, knowledge, oh, before I go back to the book, he's gonna talk about

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  how important it is to understand the battlefield and the terrain. Here we go. "Knowledge of the country is to a general what a rifle is to an infantryman and what the rules of arithmetic are to a geometrician."

• 29:47Jocko Willink?

  If he does not know the country, he will do nothing but make gross mistakes. Without this, without this knowledge, his projects, be them otherwise admirable, become ridiculous and often impracticable.

• 30:02Jocko Willink?

  Therefore, study the country where you are going to act.

• 30:08Jocko Willink?

  When it is desired to apply oneself to this essential part of war, the most detailed and exact maps of the country that can be found are taken and examined, and reexamined frequently. If it is not in time of war, the places are visited, camps are chosen, roads are examined, the mayors of the villages, the butchers and the farmers are talked to. One becomes familiar with the footpaths and the depth of the wood, their nature, and the depth of the rivers, their practicable marshes,

• 30:37Jocko Willink?

  and those which are not. And one observes in this study to distinguish carefully between the conditions of the marshes and the streams in the different seasons of the year. It cannot be said that a stream is impracticable in the month of August because it had been in the month of April. The road is chosen to be taken on such and such a march, the number of columns in which the march can be made, and all the strong camping places found on the route are examined to see if they can be used.

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  Gather your intel. Gather your intel. This is critical on the battlefield and my first deployment to Iraq, I didn't do this as much as I should have, because we'd be going to a place for the first time, and we'd go there, we'd get a quick kind of information, intelligence would come in and we'd go, okay, we're gonna go, we find out where this guy is, and we do a quick map study. You know, we'd do a map study, but it wasn't as thorough as, as when we were in Ramadi for six straight months and you actually just knew where you were. Uh, I talked, and I, somebody just hit me up on Twitter talking about this, but there was a guy from the first to 506, the company commander, he was awesome, and he videoed, he had video cameras in his Humvees.

• 31:56Jocko Willink?

  And so when he's out driving around Ramadi, he would record it, and then when he got back, he'd just watch it over and over again. So he knew every little detail.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  And that's what you want to do. That, it's so important to know where you are.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Jocko Willink?

  And to understand the terrain.

• 32:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now we're gonna talk about something, it's a, it's a French word. And, I don't speak French, by the way.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  I dig it.

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  I looked it up, but I'm still gonna murder it.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 32:26Jocko Willink?

  I apologize.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  I'll hear it.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  Coop, it looks like coupe d'oie oil, but the way you actually say it is coup de ya, okay, so coup de ya, and it's actually used quite a bit, so I had to like, run a couple rehearsals on it.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  How do you spell it?

• 32:40Jocko Willink?

  C O U P, which, which I knew that one, right, coup, right, there's a coup. And then D apostrophe O E I L. Coup de ya. And sometimes they say it like coup de, but I like that, some people put a little uh on the end of it, I like that, cuz it made a little bit more distinct. So that's what I'm doing.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:01Jocko Willink?

  And what that means, it, it, it translates directly, I believe, to stroke of the eye, and what it means is like a quick glance.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  Coup de ya.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:10Jocko Willink?

  So you just take a quick glance at something, and you understand it, think about the power of this. The coup de ya of a general is the talent which great men have of conceiving in a moment, all the advantages of the terrain, and the use that they can make of it with their army. When you are accustomed to the size of your army, you will soon, you soon form your coup de ya with reference to it. And habit teaches you the ground that you can occupy with a certain number of troops. So what he's saying there is you gotta practice, you gotta practice, you gotta practice, practice, practice, and that's, well, that's what makes you good at it. You start to be able to size things up, right?

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  You start to look at situations, and the more you get put in those situations, the better you can size them up. Think about when you first started as a bouncer. Right? When you first started as a bouncer, and you'd look at something, and you might think, oh, what's this guy gonna do? And then, a year, how long were you a bouncer for?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Seven years.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so by like, the sixth year, you're looking at a situation like, okay, I can see that guy's good, I gotta get that guy out of here. You, you just get better at your job.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  Your, your coup de ya, your way of just looking at things and assessing them gets sharper.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:21Jocko Willink?

  That's very important.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Sure, it is very important.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, speaking of which, back to the book, the coup de ya is of great importance on two occasions. The first is when you encounter the enemy on your march, and are obliged to choose ground on which to fight instantly.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  As I have remarked, with a single square mile, a hundred different orders of battle can be formed.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  This is why you rehearse it. This is also why you think, you think about when you're patrolling, you're looking around at the terrain and you're going, okay, if we get contact from over there, we can go into this direction. If we get contact from over there, we can get covered behind this, this berm or go behind this building. If you're thinking about that, even when you go into, you know, you go into a restaurant and you're like, okay, where are the exits? That's exactly what you're doing. Where are the exits? If someone comes in the front, here's what I'm gonna do. If someone comes in the back, here's what I'm gonna do.

• 35:15Jocko Willink?

  You just do a quick assessment. That's all I'm saying. Little kudaya. The clever general perceives the advantages of terrain instantly. He gains advantage from the slightest hillock, from a tiny marsh. He advances or he advances or withdraws a wing to gain superiority. He strengthens either his left or his right, moves ahead to the or to the rear and profits from the merest bagatels. Had to look that word up, by the way. What is it? Bagatelle? Bagatels. It's something of little value. So what he's saying is, if you're good, you look at even like a little bagatelle, just something that's kind of meaningless and you can take advantage of it.

• 35:58Jocko Willink?

  If you think about in jujitsu, when a guy, if you're good at jujitsu and a guy moves his arm just a little bit, like across, I always say like across the center of their chest. Yes. If they do that, that's only an inch, right? To be like, here I'm okay, here I'm not okay. When you're good, you can take advantage of that. That's a good example, by the way. I liked it. Throw a little jujitsu in there, it'll make you happy. It makes me happy too.

• 36:22Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the kudaya is required of the general when the enemy is found in position and must be attacked. Whoever has the best kudaya will perceive at first glance the weak spot of the enemy and attack him there.

• 36:38Jocko Willink?

  The latter is a result of experience.

• 36:45Jocko Willink?

  And you can only get experience through two things, training or actual experience. Talked about that at the muster.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  Like if you wanna be good, you can get good through experience. Or you can get good through training. Now, there's some things that only experience will give you. You can really make up a lot of ground just from training.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I said, good, like realistic training.

• 37:08Jocko Willink?

  That's what separates the old martial arts.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:11Jocko Willink?

  From the new martial arts.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Sure it does.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  Is the experience was close, the experience didn't used to be close to a real fight.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Oh, the training.

• 37:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the old training experience didn't, wasn't close to a real fight.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:21Jocko Willink?

  It was like kata. And remember those old things where it's like, well, when I hit you here, it's going to cause this reaction 100%.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like part of the practice.

• 37:32Jocko Willink?

  Part of the practice. Hey, let me teach you the reactions that you will have.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  That's total garbage.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually, that's a good way to kinda eval, a good, a good way to evaluate when someone's like, okay, this is how you deal with this attacker, whatever situation, and then they demonstrate it and then it takes a big involvement, like big involvement from the attacker person, you know, in the demonstration. It's like, whoa, that, that might not happen.

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  That might not happen. I remember there was people teaching me that if you hit someone in the neck with like a karate chop, straight up, they were, they were teaching me this. If you hit someone in the neck, it's gonna knock them out. That's what they were saying.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And that was part of it.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  That was part of the whole thing. Hey, if you get him here, boom, you hit him in the neck. And I was young, and I didn't even know jiu jitsu at the time, but I've been in a lot of fights when I was a kid. You know, we were in the streets and I was like, I don't think that's actually gonna work. Do it to me.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  And the dude's karate chopping me in the neck. And it didn't, it didn't have any, it didn't do anything. I mean, does it give you a little flash? I mean, it gives you a little, like a little tiny. But he's trying to knock me out now because I'm calling him out, right?

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Right, he's going for it. Oh dang, yep.

• 38:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so they're debunked.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:52Jocko Willink?

  Debunked real quick.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  You know those ones where they, wait, was it in the front here?

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's right, it's like right, like the right side of the neck, man. Side of the neck, that's gonna knock you out, he told me.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know those ones where, it could be the same thing. Where they hit, they do it, it's like a karate chop or something, and they hit you, but it's a little bit in the front of your neck.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  And I always see it, I've never seen it in real life. Well, they do it and they hit you right there and the guy knocks out.

• 39:17Jocko Willink?

  That's not true, bro.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  It's, so that doesn't work.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  So not true.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, I've never seen it in real life.

• 39:21Jocko Willink?

  It runs about Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan's post something that's like fake martial arts and, and.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Those are slapstick though.

• 39:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, but he's like, I could literally post these all day long, there's so many of them out there.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  I know, bro, and they're kind of funny.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's weird though, when you start talking about how, when jujitsu first came around and people had been training in, you know, cons, whatever, traditional martial art for 20 years.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:48Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, like a white belt or a blue belt in jujitsu would come and wrap them up. Now, I will say this, if I trained, whatever, some traditional martial art and it's 1986 and you and I get in a fight. And you don't know anything, yeah, you're gonna be in trouble, because I at least know how to throw a punch.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:06Jocko Willink?

  Possibly.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  Possibly.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there's advantages to hitting mitts, you know, like hitting mitts, because it's like, you throw a punch, you know how it feels to land a punch, that spatial kind of awareness.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Do you have, you develop, learn how to develop power? Well, if we're, well, if we're talking about boxing, that's a whole different story, because that's a real martial art, and if you watch people train, you're gonna get knocked out sometimes.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, so. But even like a karate situation, like a guy who can, who'll kick a bag, like, that guy does know how to kick you, by the way.

• 40:33Jocko Willink?

  And there's some forms of karate, what is it?

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's some forms of karate that are legit and they they go get after it. That's what GSP's background was originally in. Oh, Kyoshi. Yeah, Kyoshi, yeah. Yeah, Kyoshi, yeah. Yeah, that is rough. Oh, it's rough. Yeah. No head strikes, though. No head strikes. Which is kind of a bummer. Yeah, I mean, I think. It's like, hey, I'm gonna grab the gi, grab your gi and kick the crap out of your legs. Yeah, and punch you in the. Yeah, punch you in the chest. That's tough, though, man. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, well, let's say this, it's a little bit closer to real. Yeah. Right? So it's a little bit closer real. That's why it has some effectiveness. Yeah. The more closer you are to real, the more effective something is. And that's the way it goes. Yes, sir.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  All right. Speaking of training, back to the book, it is on this exact knowledge of the terrain that has regulated the dispositions of the troops and the order of battle of the army. So again, he's still talking about being able to look quickly and assess how you're gonna set up your troops on the terrain. Our modern formations for combat, for the most part, are defective because they cast all in the same mold. I really like this part. He's saying, look, it's not always the same. What we do, what we say right now is, hey, everyone lines up here. Reality is that doesn't work. We can't do that. If an army is really to be camped according to the rules of war,

• 42:02Jocko Willink?

  it is essential that each arm should be placed in a locality where it can act. That means you gotta have flexibility in what you're doing. That's what it means. Now he talks about detachments. How and why they should be made. There is an ancient rule of war that cannot be repeated often enough. Hold your forces together, make no detachments, and when you want to fight the enemy, reassemble all your forces and seize every advantage to make sure of your success. This rule is so certain that most of the generals who have neglected it have been punished promptly.

• 42:45Jocko Willink?

  So he's saying, don't separate your forces. And we, I've talked about this before because that's what I believed. Are there times where you separate your forces? Yes, there are. You have to be prudent. You have to be smart. And he, well, here's the dichotomy. He says the same thing. The subject of detachments is extremely delicate. None should be made.

• 43:05Jocko Willink?

  Except for good reasons, right? None should be made, except for good reasons. If you're acting offensively in an open enemy country and are only master of some strong point. So, again, this is something I talk about all the time. Once you've got your forces separated on the battlefield, it can get problematic very, very quickly. So, keep your forces consolidated as much as you can. How does that translate into the business world? Well, be careful when you start breaking off little chunks of your company to go and explore new territory. Because when you break off chunks, you get a little bit weaker.

• 43:43Jocko Willink?

  So, don't do that. When you do it, I'm not saying don't do it. He's not saying don't do it. When you do it, understand the risks that are being taken. That's what you have to do.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's good. It is funny, like you kind of, how you said that where it's like, no, you know, basically the idea that it's like, this is the hard and fast rule, but, you know, kind of thing. That is a good way to put it, because if you don't say it like that, or you don't present it like that, it kind of, in a way, makes you think, oh, I can bend that rule then, you know, and it kind of, it's like, the people might be too cavalier about the whole thing, about making the exception, you know?

• 44:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, you're right. I got a question for you.

• 44:24Jocko Willink?

  And how does this apply to jujitsu?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Like what, a specific move? Okay, so, actually, I'll use your example, which has stuck with me from the first time you said it, by the way, that, that, don't, don't put your elbow across your midline of your body, right?

• 44:39Jocko Willink?

  I like where you're going.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  You're like, okay, and actually, you gave an example of this, but, okay, so that, you, uh, you should never put your arm across your chest. You should never do it.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Every once in a while, and I will almost say, not even every once in a while, I'll just say, there is an exception, where, you know, and I think you had a situation with Dean, where you were like, he messed you up, but you thought about it later or something.

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  No, no, he told me later. He's like, oh, here, you have to do something that I've told you never to do. Here, you have to do it. And it's from the mount. It's from, you turn so far that you, that there's an escape. Where I was, when I was gonna talk about this. Well, the way this applies to Jiu Jitsu, this specifically, you're talking about something else that does apply to Jiu Jitsu. This applies to Jiu Jitsu. Picture this. You're, you're a one body, right? When you're doing Jiu Jitsu, it is highly advantageous to keep your arms and your legs close to your body, especially your arms, right? You don't stick your arm out, right? What happens when you stick your arm out? It's out there by itself and it gets taken over. It's arm locked.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  It does get taken over, yeah.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  So, so you don't do that. You, you keep your arms in close to your body and that's where you,

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  uh, Fabio, Fabio Santos, he used to say, make like your arms come out of your belly.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  Like you don't even have shoulders, like your elbows just come out of your belly. That's how you should keep your arms. And I, I've always obeyed that rule. Except, there are times when yes, you gotta reach out and you gotta make another move happen. So, as much as you can, you keep your forces consolidated as a body, as a human. Yeah. Occasionally, you gotta step them up.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:16Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  But yeah, if you, when you put it like that, it's, it's pretty clear that it's like, hey, this isn't like some ambiguous rule. That's, that's the rule. Keep, keep your arms in, that's the rule. And then, remember the golden child, you ever watched the golden child?

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Okay, Eddie Murphy, it's called the golden child, this old school eighties movie, but he was like, hey, stay on the path. He was like, hey, you gotta walk on these like stumps in the dark and get this glass of water, this Buddha thing, I think. And he's like, hey, stay on the path. You gotta stay on the path. That's it, that's the only advice I can give you, I think, to something else, but that was it. So he stays on the path, right? And there's this weird rope bridge and he, right as he gets off the rope bridge, burst into flames. And he's like, hey, I thought you told me to stay on the path. And he said, yes, but you gotta know when to break the rules.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  That's it, right?

• 47:06Jocko Willink?

  Epic lessons learned from Eddie Murphy.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Eddie Murphy, golden child, it's true, bro, it's true.

• 47:12Jocko Willink?

  All right. So, no problem. We can come at people from different angles. I'm sure there's someone that's listening to the podcast was like, oh, now I get it.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 47:21Jocko Willink?

  So whoever you are out there, Echo Charles has got your back.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Got you.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  All right. Uh, this is a great section. This is a great section. The talents that a general must have.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  And then it talks about.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  Spies and Russes and stratagems of war. But here we go. Talents that a general must have. A perfect general like Plato's Republic is a figment of the imagination.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Either would be admirable, but is not characteristic of human nature to produce beings exempt from human weakness and defects.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  The finest medallions have a reverse side. Dang, I like that. So, yeah, there's no such thing as a perfect leader. Everyone has weaknesses. And, but then he says, the finest medallions have a reverse side. And I don't know if you remember me saying this, I've said it before, I'll say it again. Oftentimes people's biggest strength is also their biggest weakness. Right? So if you've got a guy that's super aggressive and that's what makes him such a good for a certain job, they also can be too aggressive. And it ends, so there's a bunch of examples like that. But the finest medallions have a reverse side. Even if you think about what your personal best quality is, like you've got to watch out because it can be out of balance. If you, if you let it go too far.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  Now he says this, but in spite of this awareness of our imperfection, it is not less necessary to consider all the different talents that are needed by an accomplished general. These are the models that one attempts to imitate and which one would not try to approach if they were not presented to us. So he's like, hey, look, even though we can't be perfect, we should still look and see what perfect is so that we can at least try and get there. Nothing wrong with that.

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. It is essential that a general should dissemble while appearing to be occupied.

• 49:33Jocko Willink?

  So what he's saying is you've got to detach a little bit. Working with the mind and working with the body. And here he goes into a good list right here. Ceaselessly suspicious while affecting tranquility. So you act like you're calm, but you should constantly be suspicious of what is happening. Here's a solid one. Saving of the blood of his soldiers and not squandering it, except for the most important interests.

• 50:05Jocko Willink?

  Take care of your people. Informed of everything. That makes sense. Always on the lookout to deceive the enemy and careful not to be deceived himself.

• 50:19Jocko Willink?

  Makes sense. In a word, he should be more than industrious, active, and indefatigable. Not forgetting one thing to execute another. And above all, not despising those sorts of little details which pertain to great projects.

• 50:43Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be more than just like hardworking. You gotta be more than active.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  And he goes into a little clarity around some of these.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  Here we go back to the book. The dissimulation of the general consists of the important art of hiding his thoughts. Now, this is, this is one of those things where people start to freak out a little bit. Because, because these days everyone throws around the transparency word, right? Everyone should be transparent. Sir. It's, it's like, actually, no, you, you shouldn't be transparent all the time. Yeah. And in fact, you know, that's why I talk about controlling your emotions all the time. And that's why it's so powerful. If, if, if you're getting mad at someone and you show them that you're getting mad, well, then you're giving away your hand and now they're gonna get mad at you and it's just a problem. Yeah. So you need to, you need to not do that. You need to not be transparent. Yeah.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  And this, he goes into brilliant explanations as to why you can't just be transparent. Hiding, you need to be hiding his thoughts. Okay. He should be constantly on the stage and should appear most tranquil, most tranquil when he is most occupied. For the whole army speculates on his looks, on his gestures, and on his mood. So when you're walking around and you're panicking, guess what? Everyone on the team is looking at you going, what's going on? Why is the boss panicking? Yeah.

• 52:13Jocko Willink?

  If he is seen to be more thoughtful than customary, the officers will believe he is incubating some project of consequence.

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  If his manner is uneasy, they believe that affairs are going badly and they often imagine worse than the truth. You gotta stay calm.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  You gotta put on, you gotta put on the little mask over your little emotions.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  And he says that these suppositions become the rumors of the army and this army gossip is certain to pass over to the enemy's camp. It is necessary therefore that the personal conduct of the general should be so well reasoned that his dissimulation will be so profound that no one can ever penetrate it.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  If he fears that he cannot master his expression, so no one should ever know what you're thinking.

• 53:06Jocko Willink?

  Unless you want him to know that, right? Unless you wanna give it to him, cuz I say this all the time, you can't just be without emotions.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:13Jocko Willink?

  You can't, if you, if, if you come to me and you're all mad, I just can't be like, calm down, no, I can't do that. I need to, I need, yeah, I need to give you some of that.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  So I'm not saying never be emotional, but you better control them. They better be the emotions you wanna show.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:27Jocko Willink?

  And then he says this, this is funny. Talking about the, uh, the general, if he fears that he cannot master his expression, either he can pretend to be ill, or he should make an excuse of some personal trouble to explain his appearance to the public.

• 53:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's pretty funny, actually.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  That's actually, when you think about it, like a lot of us kinda do that, like, uh, like, uh, you know, oh, I'm, I'm just tired or something like that, you know, like if you, like if a girl's crying or something, or something like this. Oh, no, I just had something in my eye. It's kinda the same thing, you know, they're like, oh, I'm just.

• 54:03Jocko Willink?

  Dusty in here.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's something else wrong with me that's understandable, you know, it's not me crying or nothing.

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna bring up an excuse.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  But that's different. An excuse for your emotions? Yeah, you know when you're doing jujitsu with someone and they're like, "Yeah, you know, I just got myself..."

• 54:21Jocko Willink?

  That is like, yeah. That's all you hear, huh? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but, excuse, excuse, excuse. Don't tell me that. Yeah. But that's, that's interesting advice. That shows you how important it is. You know, if you're, if you're willing to do like skip work because you don't want people to see you're freaking out, I don't recommend that. Right. But hey, hey, I can't come into them sick. Yeah. I think the opposite actually happens. Hungover. Yeah, well, definitely. That's what they'll say, if they're hungover. You know what, uh, people in the teams, I would say people do the opposite and they have like problems at home. It's like calling and saying like, "Hey, I can't make it." Say, well, what they're really doing is like crying. Because they're in a big scrap with their old lady. Mm-hmm.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  Alright, uh, this is, this is brilliant right here. "Above all, when he has received some bad news, he should treat it as a trifle and show the number of resources which he has to retrieve it."

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  It's basically good. That's, that's saying good. When somebody, when you have, when you receive some bad news, oh, good, bring it. That's, he's saying the exact same thing.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  "While never despising his enemy, in the bottom of his heart, he should never speak of him except with scorn and compare carefully the advantages of our troops over the others."

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  So, he's actually saying, "Look, he's doing the opposite." He, he's like, "I don't even hate my enemy, but I'll never let anyone know that I don't completely despise them." Right, right. That's pretty funny.

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  This is good. "If some detachment is unfortunate in the war, he should examine the cause. And after having determined the reason for the fault, he should instruct his officers concerning it. In this fashion, a few minor misfortunes will never discourage the troops and they will always preserve the feeling of confidence in their ability." So, when something goes wrong, you don't freak out. You just look, okay, well, let's take a look at what went wrong there and then we'll fix it. And then it won't be a problem anymore. That's how you handle a problem when someone doesn't do well.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, secrecy is so necessary for a general that the ancients have even said that there was not a human being able to hold his tongue. But here's the reason for that. If you form the finest plans in the world, but divulge them, your enemy will learn about them, and then it will be very easy for him to parry them.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  The general plan of the campaign should be communicated at most to the officer responsible for supplies, and the rest of the details should not be told to officers, except when the time has come to execute them. When there are generals detached, and you must write to them, the letter should be completely in code. If your enemy intercepts one, you will not have betrayed yourself. This is clearly something that applies to that type of warfare back in the day, but it applies to life as well. I mean, when you open your mouth.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:24Jocko Willink?

  You might as well just, you might as well just put it on Twitter.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:28Jocko Willink?

  Because everyone's gonna know about it.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the kind where, and they always say it before they say something of consequence. They'll say, hey, don't tell anyone this, but hey, I'm gonna do this, or I feel this, or whatever, and then sure enough, they go, and it's the same thing. Hey, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but, you know, blah, blah, blah.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, sure enough, this thing just completely just got told. I'm not supposed to tell you this. Yeah, that's why.

• 57:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Because you don't tell everybody.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's old hardcore band, Burke and the Derry. I think it was, I think it was Wrecking Crew from Boston, and they used to have T-shirts, just big letters on the T-shirts on the back. Trust no one.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  I had one.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  That actually sounds familiar, like I might have seen a shirt like that before.

• 58:16Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if you saw that shirt, maybe other people made it, because they probably, there was probably like 12 of those shirts back then. It's not something Echo Charles would have seen on the island of Kauai back in 88.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  No, probably not. Loose lips sink ships, right?

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  That's real.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  That's the deal.

• 58:31Jocko Willink?

  There you go. See? So we do say that. You are correct. Back to the book, it is absolutely necessary to change your methods often and to imagine new decoys. If you always act in the same manner, you will soon be interpreted for you are surrounded with fifty thousand curious who wants to know everything that you think and how you are going to lead them. That's pretty cool. It's interesting, what's kind of interesting about that is he's not even talking about the enemy. He's talking about your own people, you know, you gotta think of new things.

• 59:05Jocko Willink?

  And this is clearly, this is something I always try to explain to people in jujitsu is the thing that you're going for is not going to work. You have to use the, you have to use, create new decoys, you have to try new things or else you're not going to catch people. It's the way it works.

• 59:20Jocko Willink?

  Now here we get, I'm glad that I'm, Leif and I just got done writing a book called the dichotomy leadership because here we go. The commander should practice kindness and severity.

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  Should appear friendly to soldiers. Speak to them on the march, visit them while they are cooking, ask them if they are well cared for and alleviate their needs if they have any. Officers without experience in war should be treated kindly. Their good actions should be praised, small requests should be granted them and they should not be treated in a manner, in an overbearing manner. So there you go. It's like, that's all good, right? That's the kindness part. Which, we're down with that. And that's, again, that's why when I talked about why people would listen to this guy, one of the reasons because he took care of his people. He was out there seeing what problems they had. How can we get those problems fixed?

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  And then he says, but severity is maintained about everything regarding the service. The negligent officer is punished. The man who answers back is made to feel your severity by being reprimanded with authoritative error that superiority gives. Pillaging or argumentative soldiers or those who, whose obedience is not immediate, immediate should be punished.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Dichotomy. You gotta hold the line, but at the same time, don't hold that line so tight that it snaps. Which you can do.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  The general can even discuss the war with some of his core commanders who are the most intelligent and permit them to express their sentiments freely in conversation. So when I was talking about how he was just, everyone listen to me. Blind obedience is what I require. Here he's saying, no, actually, listen to your people. If you find some good things among what they say, you should not remark about it then, but make use of it. When this has been done, you should speak about it in the presence of many others. It was so and so who had this idea. Praise him for it. This modesty will gain the general the friendship of good thinking men, and he will more easily find persons who will speak their sentiments sincerely to him.

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  Boom. So that thing, that macho thing at the beginning was not true. This is what's true. You wanna, you wanna have, he's, he's, the, the reason that he's doing this is because he wants people to speak their mind to him. That's the reason why he's doing this. Think about that. It's also, it's also interesting that, because I've, I say this, you've heard me talk about how like, it's whenever someone's right and I'm wrong, I'm happy. Because if you're right and I'm wrong, I can be like, ah, man, Echo, that's really, yeah, good job, man, that's, you really pointed that out. And it, it shows you that I'm humble.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Jocko Willink?

  Because otherwise, you're just like, oh, Jock will think he's right all the time. No, no, Echo, man, you're right, I'm wrong. That's a good job. Hey, appreciate you, uh, straightening me out on that, right?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yes, you are right, actually.

• 1:02:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so that's what he's saying, is it actually gives you the opportunity to be modest and to be humble.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Jocko Willink?

  Because sometimes it can be hard when you're right all the time.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're used to that feeling and, yeah, yeah, and well, the reason that I think is kind of funny because I can imagine, or I can kind of remember a few times where you're like, yeah, yeah, you are correct, you are correct, and you'll say that, you are correct.

• 1:02:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  And be like.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  I'm kind of happy when you're right.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, yeah, that's what I feel. I feel like, yeah, I just sort of talk Jock a little something, just not small, small, but it's there. It's something. And now it's like, all right, well, that's, that's one of the, one of the tactics, I guess.

• 1:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  But it still works.

• 1:02:59Jocko Willink?

  So I guess am I over here, is that, am I over here just manipulating you?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Put it this way, I'm glad to be here, you know, so.

• 1:03:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, let me answer that question for you, and we've talked about this before. If, if the reason I was doing it was so that like I could get something out of you.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:15Jocko Willink?

  That would benefit me and not benefit and hurt you, then yeah, it'd be manipulation. But if it's just like, hey, we're just trying to build, we're trying to make something happen.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  Then, then it's all good, in my opinion.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Kind of gives me room to talk too, which is empowering, you know, sure, hey, I abuse it from time to time. I understand.

• 1:03:32Jocko Willink?

  But there was, would you say the last podcast was an example of that?

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  It was bordering on abuse.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no. I think it was over the line, over the line, over the line.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  No, was it the body, body, body moving through space part?

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what it was.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Bro, I drank some of that discipline and I was on that white tea and.

• 1:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Listen to this.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  I'm just saying.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  You know what you need to do right now? Own it. Don't blame the white tea. Don't blame the discipline that I got your brain firing correctly.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  I think you are correct.

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  People are gonna cut you off, they're gonna be like, don't get them anymore.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I told you, I've been pounding that stuff, the canola.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's tasty.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Noted, assimilated.

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Assimilated. Back to the book, the principal task of the general is mental. Large projects and major arrangements. But since the best dispositions become useless if they are not executed, it is essential that the general should be industrious to see whether his orders are executed or not. Again, just because you say, go make this happen, doesn't mean it's gonna happen. You gotta get out there and make sure it happens.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  Moving on. Here's a, here's a line you can just, you can just, you can just print this up.

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  Skepticism is the mother of security. That's legit.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  Even though only fools trust their enemies, prudent persons never do. The general is the principal sentinel of his army. Think about that, the general is the principal sentinel of the army. The guy that's, the guy that's keeping everyone safe is the general. He's the primary watchstander for everyone. He should always be careful of its preservation and that is never exposed to misfortune. One falls into a feeling of security after battles, when one is drunk with success and when one believes the enemy completely disheartened.

• 1:05:30Jocko Willink?

  So we all know that.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  You know when that happens? You know what Jeff Higgs told me? If you tap a guy out, like if it's, if you have someone that like legit, you have, you have battles with on the map. And you tap them out. You you need to step it up.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Because they're gonna step it up.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Bringing it.

• 1:05:46Jocko Willink?

  You're all relaxed, you're all celebrating your victory.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Don't do it.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Jocko Willink?

  Step it up, they're coming hard.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  You do that to me all the time.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. I try to.

• 1:05:56Jocko Willink?

  You always get crazy.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Hey, back to that, um, the one you were saying before this about, you know, how like you let them talk or whatever.

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Um, the opposite of that is if, if, you know, let's say one of your subordinates or whoever like says something to you and then you respond with the opposite of what you do. With this either tone or words that basically say, oh, I already knew that, you know? I already knew that, like, you don't have to tell me kind of thing, I already knew that. People will do that, even just on a real small, even on a social level sometimes, and it does make you not want to talk to them that much.

• 1:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. It, the, um, the idea of saying, I already knew that.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Is not good.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an extreme obvious case, but even a tone can say that.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, a tone can say, but also, I already knew that. You didn't know it. If you would have known it, you would have said it.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Most likely, like, that's an eighty percent. Sure, twenty percent of the time, you might be like, hey, Jaco, arm locks work from the garden too, I'd be like. I even then I wouldn't say I already knew that. I'd be like, you know what? Yeah, that's, that's something definitely good to consider.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's sort of a general principle that I totally agree with, you know, something like that, just not, I already knew that.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, or well, of course.

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Or duh, or you know, duh, that's extreme, but well, of course, that's the one where they're like, yeah, of course.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  You know what forces those words out of your mouth?

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  Your ego.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  It's your ego, because you don't want that person to have that piece of information that you didn't have, so you just, I already knew that.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, this is hard.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I can't say that it's not natural. I mean, it feels, you know, if, especially if you did already know it, it's like, oh, I don't want him to think that I didn't know that when I really did kind of thing, like, I don't want him to think I'm like not knowing.

• 1:07:38Jocko Willink?

  What you need to do is you need to trust. You need to trust the nature of the world. And the nature of the world is that you will eventually be seen as someone that actually does know that. Yeah, clearly you know that. Yeah, trust the nature of the world. Trust the nature of the world. I'm gonna do it. Alright, uh, here's another situation. One falls into a feeling of security when a skillful enemy amuses you with pretend peace proposals. One falls into a feeling of security by mental laziness and through lack of calculation concerning the intentions of the enemy.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Mental laziness. Just say no to the mental laziness. To proceed, and now he gives instructions of how to overcome these situations. To proceed properly, it is necessary to put oneself in his place and say, "What would I do if I were the enemy? What project could I form? Make as many as possible of these projects. Examine them all and above all, reflect on the means to avert them. If you find yourself unable,

• 1:08:48Jocko Willink?

  put it right at once." So, look at, even when you win, go, "Okay, well, if I were the enemy, what would I do right now?" And if you can't figure out how to solve what you think the enemy's gonna do, then correct it right now.

• 1:09:01Jocko Willink?

  Often, through an hour's neglect and unfortunate delay, loses a reputation that has been acquired with a great deal of labor. Always presume that the enemy has dangerous designs and always be forehanded with the remedy.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  So, you gotta be careful of what the enemy is gonna do. You've always gotta imagine that the enemy is ready for you. You gotta be ready for that. That's gotta be your mindset. And that's an extreme mindset, like the enemy's always waiting and ready. Yeah. And you can go too far with that mindset. There's a dichotomy, and here's the dichotomy of it. Back to the book. But do not let these calculations make you timid.

• 1:09:45Jocko Willink?

  So just because you're thinking about the enemy might do this, the enemy might do this, that could overwhelm you. You'd be like, you know what? Screw it. I'm not gonna do anything. Yeah. No, don't let these calculations make you timid. Circumspection is only good to a certain point. A rule that I practice myself and which I have always found good is that in order to have rest oneself, is necessary to keep the enemy occupied. If you want to rest yourself, you've got to keep the enemy occupied.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  You gotta put your competitor, you gotta put your competitor on their heels. If you want to get any rest, you gotta put your competitor on their heels. Then he says this throws them back on the defensive and once they are placed that way, they cannot raise up again during the entire campaign. You just go. When you get that lead on someone, you put them down. That's one of the things I notice in MMA, like someone will say, oh, you won that last round. You got this. No. No, actually, don't say that to your corner. Yeah. Be like, hey, that guy's gonna step it up. He's gonna come out harder. This is the round that he's wanting. He's coming after you. You need to step it up. You didn't win that round. Especially in MMA, you never know who won the round because the judges are so horrible.

• 1:11:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Continuing on, back to the book. If you wish to be loved by your soldiers, husband their blood and do not lead them to slaughter. So that's, that's an obvious statement, right? But he talks about that in detail. That's important. They can be spared by shortening the battle by means that I shall indicate, by the skill with which you choose your points of attack in the weakest localities, in not breaking your head against impracticable things which are ridiculous to attempt, in not fatiguing the soldiers uselessly and in sparing him in sieges and battles. So he's saying you gotta take care of your, your men.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  You gotta husband their blood and not lead them to slaughter. But the way you do that is by attacking the weak locations. Is, I, I, you know, how many times have you heard me say like, don't bang your head against the wall 47 times? Like, 47? Okay, that's the limit. Yeah. Okay, 48, you gotta find a different way. That's what he's saying. So just keep banging your, bringing your head against impracticable things. Don't do that.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  And here he says this, "When you seem to be most prodigal of soldiers' blood, you spare it, however, by supporting your attacks well, by pushing them with the greatest vigor to deprive time of the means of augmenting your losses." So what is he saying there? He's saying that the times, sometimes it might seem like you're being most wasteful of, of the blood of your soldiers, but it's in those times where it seems that way, the way, the reason it seems that way is because you're being super aggressive. It's because you're, you're setting up your attacks, you're supporting them well, and you're, you're being default aggressive.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Husband their blood, that's like, like care of them, right? Like it's, like it's yours kind of thing.

• 1:12:55Jocko Willink?

  Take care of it. And then he's saying, "When you seem to be most prodigal of your soldiers' blood," that means when you're wasteful of your soldiers' blood, "you spare it by supporting your attacks well," that makes sense. "By pushing them with the greatest vigor," that makes sense. Cause if you guys are going at it half-assed, guess what? It's not gonna work out well for them.

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  Here, "Rules of war are of great usefulness." Or sorry, "Ruses of war are of great usefulness." Ruses of war, so this is like tricks, right? "They are detours," listen to this, "they are detours which often lead more surely to the objective than the wide road which goes straight ahead." So what is he saying there? "Don't do the frontal assault on the enemy's strong point." "Use tricks." "Use flanks." And here he just breaks it down. "Animals have only one method of acting, but intelligent men have inexhaustible resources.

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  These resources are infinite in number. Their object is to hide your veritable design and to catch the enemy in the trap you have prepared for him." Thus, the contrary of what one wishes to do is feigned. If you open the campaign, you have your troops march and counter march so that the enemy cannot learn the locality where you assemble. If it is a question of capturing cities, you encamp in a place which makes him fearful for two or three cities of his at the same time being attacked.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  If he hastens to one flank, throw yourself on the other.

• 1:14:47Jocko Willink?

  This is obvious stuff. Seems obvious. But what are you doing when you're, when you're setting up a triangle? Right? You're, you've got the arm bar. You, you put the person in the threat of the arm bar and the triangle and the sweep all at the same time. You, you, you set up camp in between three cities and they don't know which one you're going to attack and they got to defend all of them. Or they got to try to defend all of them.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  So when they hasten to defend the arm bar, that's when you throw yourself.

• 1:15:17Jocko Willink?

  Throw yourself on that triangle.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  On that triangle.

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  You outwit the enemy to force him to fight or to prevent him from it. So he's saying that the, the two ways to outsmart the enemy is you either make the enemy fight when you don't want to, when he doesn't want to, or you prevent him from fighting when you don't want to fight. And here he talks, this is basically a reverse psychology is what he's about to go into right now. There are two means of forcing the enemy to fight. One is pretending to fear it. His self-confidence becomes your accomplice, security lulls him into, security lulls him and your cunning triumphs. So if you act like you're afraid, maybe the person's going to fight you.

• 1:16:01Jocko Willink?

  When it is desired to avoid battle, different ruses are used and apparent war is made, which has all the actions of the offensive and which nevertheless is of an opposite nature. So he's saying there, if you don't want to fight, you act like you want to fight. That's, that's all he's saying in a bunch of words.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  It is your attitude that imposes on your enemy and the suspicion that you give him that you are forming the boldest projects against him.

• 1:16:32Jocko Willink?

  The attitude is maintained by not withdrawing easily before the enemy. And often the appearance that you are waiting for him will make him lose all desire to attack you. But if he does come, you steal away by a night march which you had already planned long before. He thinks he has you and the next day, there's no one. If you only withdraw, you will be followed. But then it is necessary to take position to the flank, which will prevent him from passing you without running into great danger.

• 1:17:03Jocko Willink?

  This sort of war is a masterpiece of the Austrians and it is from them that it should be learned.

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  So act aggressively and plan your escape. That's kind of the key thing because if you just act aggressively, you might get called on it, right? And he said, act aggressively, but plan your escape while you're acting aggressively.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  This is gonna sound like this isn't an example because we all are too familiar with it. But here's the thing, when it first came, when this tactic first came out, there's a good example of that very thing. So at the bar, guy wants to fight you, right? Guys, what? You wanna fight me? You wanna fight me? Okay. Tell your friend, hey, hold me back, hold me back, right? You wanna fight? Yeah, let's fight, let's fight, let's fight. Hold me back, hold me back, hold me back. Friend's holding him back, he wants to fight. The guy's like, oh shoot, this guy wants to fight, whatever. And be like, hey, meet me outside. We're gonna fight outside, meet me outside. One minute, I don't wanna fight in here, you know, but I'm ready kind of thing. Guy's like, fuck, he goes outside and meets a guy outside, guy's gone. You don't gotta fight.

• 1:17:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Acted all aggressive.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then when he went outside to fight you. If he even wants to go outside to fight, you might be like, man, this guy's kind of crazy. He was down to fight so all quick. So I might not go out there, but when he does finally go out there, he's gone.

• 1:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Is it a, is it a unwritten like rule that if you go to get in a fight, I'm gonna try and hold you back? Cause you get like whispered or something like, hold me back.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I know, but back in, back in the day before everyone knew that tactic, it's kind of like that was a good tactic.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just saying. Is it the general rule to just hold people back? Like, hold your friend back from getting in a fight?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It depend, depends on your circles.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Cause have you ever been with someone who's like, I'm not gonna hold you back, go, you wanna?

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, hundred percent.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  One of my buddies who's a badass team guy, somebody was talking smack, another SEAL was talking smack. He's like, I'll go kick that guy's ass.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  Thinking that my buddy would be like, no, you know, don't, I'm gonna hold you back. He was like, go ahead.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's all.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  What are you waiting for? He's right over there.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you go get him? You're running your mouth.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, ooh, I really gotta do this?

• 1:19:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, don't run your mouth is the key point there.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, so I feel, I feel like that's kind of like a response to that old school tactic.

• 1:19:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that's a good response to the old school tactic. If you come out with me and you wanna go after someone, I'm gonna let you go.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  I mean, like, oh, go get, go get something, see what you got. Cause I don't like people when they're running their mouth, you know what I mean?

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone does.

• 1:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had a guy in our football team.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  It's weird that everyone knows, no one likes people that run their mouths, but there's a bunch of people in the world that run their mouths.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  Explain that one. We all know it.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the name dropping thing, right? It's harder to see it in yourself than it is to see in other people. It's like, easy to see it in other people. Oh, I hate when the guy runs his mouth. Meanwhile, like, that's all you do, kind of thing. It's hard to see it in yourself and easy to see in other. I think that's one of those things. That's what I think.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  But who knows?

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Good point. That is, that you just, you, once again, for that guy that's listening, he just nailed it. He's like, oh, got it.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that, I'll tell you what, this book was, I don't know if it's the translation or whatever, but there's definitely some long, complicated sentences that were a little bit tricky for, for me.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  Had to read it a few times.

• 1:20:19Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, and let me, by saying that, what I mean is like, sometimes, you know, a movie from 1987 is a better example. I dig it. That's what you're here for, to be real over here. There is another ruse, which is that if you find the enemy too strong to attack him, you help him with the means of dividing his forces. So, basically, if you can get people to split up, if you can get your enemy to split up, that's a good tactic as well. There's another type of ruse, which is admirable, it is that of double spies. It is necessary to know them and then tell them with an air of good faith, everything that you want the enemy to know. So, there you go.

• 1:21:02Jocko Willink?

  "It is essential to know what is happening amongst the enemy. I am of the opinion that the best thing against the Austrians will be to bribe some captain or major for their hussars, by means of whom intelligence can be carried on with them." And there's a reason why I'm talking about this. So he's talking about spies, and this is kinda old school, but I brought that part up so I could do this part right here. "If greed for silver does not work, it is necessary to employ fear. Seize some mayor of a village where you camp and force him to take a disguised man who speaks the language of the country and under some pretext to conduct him as his servant

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  in the enemy army. Threaten him that if he does not bring your man back, you will cut the throat of his wife and children whom you hold under guard while waiting, and that you will have his house burned. I was obliged to employ this sad expedient in Bohemia, and it succeeded for me. In general, it is necessary to pay spies well and not to be miserly in that respect. A man who risks being hung in your service merits being well paid."

• 1:22:18Jocko Willink?

  So Frederick the Great. We know he, we know he liked music and literature, but guess what? He was no stranger to just having your family's throats cut and burning the house down. Yeah ruthless.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  So he's saying be well paid like it's kinda like hey. If you listen like a carrot in the stick situation where it's like, okay, if you listen, if you're all good, you get paid well. If not, you get your house burned down and your kids' wife.

• 1:22:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Lit throats.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep. He's saying if, no, he's saying if you can, use the carrot. If the carrot works, that's great. If you can make someone greedy, that's like, all right, you know what? I'll get this information for you because I'm greedy. That's cool. If you can't get that. Time to use fear.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kinda give them no choice kinda situation.

• 1:23:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and. You know, that's what's, what's scary about that is that's goes on today. That's what a lot of the jihadists would do. They would, they would kidnap where they would, they would take someone and say, look, you either run the suicide bomb into this building or we're gonna kill your family. All of them and burn your house down and, and you know, the people make that horrible choice.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that, well, even that, that's more the sticks. Like remember the old school? Remember the ma, the like apparently the ma, like on the mafia movies and stuff, they're like, hey, they're paying off this guy. But if he's like, if he doesn't wanna play the game anymore, then they kill him. You know, it's kinda like that, like that, right? Basically?

• 1:23:39Jocko Willink?

  No, it's two different things. So if you can get someone that does. Will do what you want him to do for money, that's great.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Jocko Willink?

  If you can't get anyone to do that, then you gotta go.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  You gotta go throat cutting. But I guess you're right that someone could say, hey, I'm done. And then you go, oh, no, you're not done.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  You're done. Yeah. So you are right. Yeah.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  The mafia.

• 1:23:57Jocko Willink?

  The mafia thing like, yeah, you, you, you're gonna, you're gonna keep doing this. No, I'm not. People get involved in situations like that that they shouldn't have gotten involved in and it all seems okay.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:06Jocko Willink?

  It all seems okay in the beginning.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  One side or the other, because either side, whether you're a criminal or you're, whether you go to help a criminal out or you go to help the cops out. Like you think it's gonna be, hey, it's just gonna go good. It's not.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna end up in a bad situation. You're in a bad way.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  So the, the expression getting into bed with whatever, you know?

• 1:24:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's not gonna work out.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Kinda that's.

• 1:24:28Jocko Willink?

  I never wanted to be a spy of any kind.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  You never did.

• 1:24:30Jocko Willink?

  Never wanted to be a spy of any kind. Never watched. James Bond and was like, I'd really like to do that.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  Never watched a spy movie and thought like, I don't know. I don't like the, I don't like that whole. Paranoia, like undercover cops too. I'm sure we'll get somebody that's done deep undercover. I never had like, I don't, I wanna, I don't like that.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can dig it, man.

• 1:24:58Jocko Willink?

  I don't like to, I don't wanna fabricate everything like that all the time. That's just hard. I mean, props to them. Like undercover cops, that's a crazy job. Can't even imagine it.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  Bro, imagine going in, right? You're undercover, deep cover. You go in and you don't know if the guy knows. You know, cuz that's how, right? Yeah, for sure. Especially these organized crime bosses. I don't know how it is on the movies anyway, where when they find out, it's like, a lot of times, they don't just, oh, what? He's a cop, kill him. It's like, no, no, no, no.

• 1:25:27Jocko Willink?

  They set him up.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, uh, I never had the desire to do that. Some people really like that stuff. I never had the desire to do that.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Remember Swordfish? Watch that movie, Swordfish? Yeah, that, that happens. Anyways, like a cross and a double cross, anyway.

• 1:25:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  We'll talk about that some other time.

• 1:25:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, you know what? Let's, let's tee it up for a whole podcast.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  We'll go back to the book, I'm done.

• 1:25:49Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:25:52Jocko Willink?

  In neutral countries, it is necessary to make friends. If you can win over the whole country, so much the better. The friendship of the neutral countries gained by requiring the soldiers to observe good discipline and by picturing your enemies as barbarous and bad intentioned. Solid, solid advice, right?

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this is good.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  Let no one imagine that it is, that it is sufficient just to move an army about to make the enemy regulate himself on your movements.

• 1:26:32Jocko Willink?

  So you, you can't just think to yourself, hey, my moves are enough. And I'm doing, and, and it's gonna have the impact that I want it to have.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  A general who is, who has too presumptuous confidence in his skills runs the risk of being grossly duped. That's what this is. Don't let your ego get out of control. War is not an affair of chance. A great deal of knowledge, study, and meditation is necessary to conduct it well. And when blows are planned, whoever contrives them with the greatest appreciation of their consequences will have a great advantage.

• 1:27:15Jocko Willink?

  However, to give a few rules on such a delicate matter, I would say that in general, the first of two army commanders who adopts an offensive attitude almost always reduces his rival to the defensive and makes him regulate himself on his movements.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean? Means default aggressive. It means go. That's what it means.

• 1:27:41Jocko Willink?

  Unskillful generals race to the first trap set before them.

• 1:27:47Jocko Willink?

  I just had a guy on Twitter say, "I'm a white belt, but tonight I swept a blue belt." It wasn't really that good though, because he arm locked me quickly thereafter. And I was like, "You didn't sweep him. You got set up."

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  Welcome to jujitsu. So same thing. Don't race for the first trap that's set before you. This is why a great advantage is drawn from knowledge of your adversary. And when you know his intelligence and character, you can use it to play on his weaknesses.

• 1:28:17Jocko Willink?

  Everything which the enemy least expects will succeed the best.

• 1:28:25Jocko Willink?

  That's true. A hundred percent.

• 1:28:29Jocko Willink?

  That's why when you get, like, when you think about when you get caught in jujitsu, I would say most of the time it's getting caught with something that you didn't expect. Right? Some people, Dean can do things and like, he's gonna get it and you know it's coming. Like you hear Hickson stories. Hickson be like, "I'm gonna arm lock everyone's left arm." And they'd line up 20 black belts, need to arm lock everyone's left arm.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Jocko Willink?

  But most of the time, it's something that you least expect.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and there's kind of two things. And I think weird, strangely, I was just thinking about this yesterday, where there's like, there's two kind of ways where you'll get caught. So if you want to use Dean as the example, and then the, the unexpected example. If you get caught in some by someone like when Dean does that where it's like, oh, I'm gonna get you with this. What he does is the equivalent of, let's say, like, I don't know.

• 1:29:18Jocko Willink?

  And he might not literally say that, but you know it's coming. I mean, I do this to you, right? Where you're like, oh, he's about to come here with me.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  Like, you know it's coming.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:29:26Jocko Willink?

  So that's the situation that we're talking about.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Example one.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Yes. So it's like, okay, if you're on the battlefield or whatever, you have a defense here. You know, a defensive position there, a defensive position there, a defensive position there. And they're all protecting ultimately, like, one guy's protecting this guy. This guy's protecting this guy and this guy, you know, kind of thing. So it's like, you can't get to this guy without going through this situation, right? And what Dean essentially does is he shuts down all your defenses for this thing two moves ahead of you.

• 1:29:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, I'm gonna try to pass the guard, but to pass the guard, how's he gonna defend? So he shuts that down before you even realize, like, oh, yeah, that he's gonna try to pass the guard.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  He's a few steps ahead.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Yes. So when he goes for these moves.

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  When I'm getting the Camira on you, it's not the Camira itself that got you. It was a minute ago when you left your arm out and I isolated it because I was going for a choke and I end up doing that, yes.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Right. And then your other arm's tied up under your heavy ass knee because that's part of the defense, but you already knew that. Two moves ago, you already knew that. So then you shut those down. And that's what Dean's good at a lot of times, especially, and he has that weird good, like, pressure.

• 1:30:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  So if your arm is, like, isolated, since you don't really detect, like, immediate threat, you're like, dang, my arm's stuck. But hey, that's not, it's kind of okay for right now. I'll deal with it later. But here's the thing, no, you're not gonna deal with it later. He just took care of that big defense that you're gonna need, by the way. And it's gone. And then by the time he gets there.

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  You don't even know that you need it yet in 20 seconds in the future, but he already eliminated that.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And that's the way it works there. And the other ones are just like you're saying, where it's kind of like, you know, you attack this sweep and the arm bar. And when they go to defend one or even both of them, a lot of times, because they're ready for it, you know? You went for the thing that you had planned already.

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  Dean does that. Dean does that where he'll, like, let someone try and arm lock him or let him try and triangle. And like, they're 100% not gonna arm lock him.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:15Jocko Willink?

  But even me, I'll be like, maybe I can get it this one time.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  He continues on here, back to the book. If he relies for security on a chain of mountains that he believes is impracticable, and you pass these mountains by roads unknown to him, he is confused to start with. And if you press him, he will not have time to recover from his consternation. That's actually a really good description of jiu-jitsu right there. Like, you're just confused and by the time you're trying to overcome your confusion and your concern, you're getting crushed. In the same way, if he places himself behind a river to defend the crossing, and you find some ford above or below which he, which, on which to cross, unknown to him, this will surprise and derange him and confuse him. I like that.

• 1:32:03Jocko Willink?

  The art of war is divided between force and stratagem. What cannot be done by force must be done by stratagem. And I actually was kind of unclear about the usage of the word stratagem, and there's meanings of it. To clarify the meaning a little bit more specifically, it means like deception, like trickery. It's not, it just doesn't mean strategy. It means like, this is a trick scenario.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it kind of seems like the root word of what strategy kind of maybe came from.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, I would definitely say that. It's the same damn word. So I'd say you nailed that one. Uh, hold on, let me redo that. That's a good point, yeah, yeah, for sure. Man, I didn't see that.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jocko.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  Uh, see, sometimes I don't follow my own guidance. That was one of them, huh? Straight up just hucking a dagger at you.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Isn't that an exception, though? Because you know how like everything, you know, you can do something too much. So like, you know, like if you're always encouraging me, I'm busting out dumb, obvious stuff.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  You mean like strategy?

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, right.

• 1:33:18Jocko Willink?

  That's why I didn't try and fake it, you know, I kept it real.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, you gotta keep it real. The dichotomy, man, the dichotomy.

• 1:33:24Jocko Willink?

  Check. Uh, have your disposition supported well. Do not forget your reserves.

• 1:33:31Jocko Willink?

  Take advantage of the terrain and then attack him brusquely. And you should be able to hope for the most brilliant success. If the heights are on your side, this will be of great advantage to you. If they are not, you have almost no hope of succeeding. Take the high ground, or the high ground will take you. Something that we talked about a little bit.

• 1:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Now he's talking about attacking the enemy's entrenchment. So the enemy's in a defended position. If you have resolved to attack an entrenched enemy, do it at once and do not allow him to time to perfect his works. So if you know you're gonna have to defend, attack a defended position, do it as quick as you can. Don't let them get their defenses all set up. That's something that a lot of Jiu Jitsu players, they...

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  Especially, I would say, it's kind of the same thing. But if you pass my guard, I don't wait until you settle me across the side before I start escaping. As soon as I know I'm gonna lose that position, I'm already escaping.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  And same thing, if I pass your guard and then I let you get in your defensive position, well, it's gonna be hard to yank your arm out of there. But there's a moment where your arm's hanging out. And if I go for it right then, my probability for success is a lot higher.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  You got all mad one time, like a couple of months ago. Cause I did that to you, I like pass you go wham, arm lock. And you were, it was a straight, there's something that bothered you about it.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Jocko Willink?

  Emotionally, I don't know what it was.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Oh, I could tell you.

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  You want me to reenact or recount the account? Yeah, so I said to you, I said, you know what? Cause you kept getting me with the guillotine. And I said to you, kinda, I don't even know why I said this, but I did say that. I said, I think I got my defense against your kimura and arm lock, like your other arm moves, I think I got that down. I think I'm solid with those, defending those. But the guillotine, I'm still, you know, trying to figure out. I said something, I said that, basically, in so many words. And you were like, oh, okay.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  And then, yeah. And yeah, and then you went a little bit, you know, more sense of urgency or whatever. And it was an arm bar that you did that was almost would have been a flying arm bar, except it was done within a scramble. So like you kind of did a little guard pass and you went to and yeah, it came out of nowhere. You shouldn't have been capable of doing that, in my opinion, at the time.

• 1:35:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, I opened the game up. Sometimes I could open the game up a little bit.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yes, you did, sir. That's exactly what happened.

• 1:36:05Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I love that part of jujitsu. I love that part of jujitsu where you're going like getting after. I've been training with Andy Hard and we've been both been opening up the game. I used to train with Dean like this all the time. We just didn't care. Suicide, every move was a suicide move. Like, hey, I might just die after I do this move, but I'm gonna do it anyways.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  And, and you just watch it would just be like a, like a, like a Tasmanian devil. Just stuff going on. Yeah, I'm trying to train like that again right now.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's good because.

• 1:36:33Jocko Willink?

  It's so fun.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  In a way, you start to, it's almost like you, you guys are both doing offense and counters is what you're doing. You're not really defending technically much.

• 1:36:43Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  You know, you're just going boom. And yeah, he's going for something you're like, okay, because most moves have a counter to it, you know, kind of thing. And you're just thinking like, it's a real forward thinking like dynamic.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It's fun. It's good.

• 1:36:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and so, point being, once you get a little advantage on the enemy, take advantage, take further advantage of it. Don't let them reset and resettle. Go. Get a little advantage on your competitor, go. Tear them apart. Attack harder.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  It is the general's kudaya that must decide this. If you attack a bull by the horns, your task will be difficult and perhaps will not succeed at all. Attack weak positions. Makes sense.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  And now he starts talking about, so they talked about attacking an entrenchment or defensive position. Now he's talking about setting up a defensive position and he says, as I have already said, and I repeat it, that I would never put myself in an entrenchment, at least unless a terrible misfortune such as the loss of a battle or a triple superiority on the part of the enemy forced me to do it. So he's not gonna dig in and try and defend. He's gonna be on offense all the time. You know, this is really essentially what the guard is. People think, you know, you shouldn't be on the bottom in the guard. That's a disadvantage. You would rather be on top. And if you end up in the guard, well, that's because you ended up there by some gross misfortune of your own doing, most likely, or your other

• 1:38:17Jocko Willink?

  person. Now, have there, are there some people out there that absolutely have a guard that's so crazy and offensive that it's, it's kind of morphed that a little bit? Yeah. Yes, that is true. Yeah. And that goes along with the competition. And there's some people in combat that are so good at defending positions that they make it, well, look at the Russians, that their, their whole strategy is basically pulling guard. Like, yeah, okay, you come this way a little bit, because what's, where do you spend more gas? Defending guard or passing guard?

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Passing guard. Me too, for sure. Trying to pass guard is way more energy draw, draws way more energy trying to pass them. And when you're just, when you're just holding and you adjust your hips and you adjust your hips, well, that's what the Russians do. So their guard is just really, really good. They tax you a little bit and move back. They tax you a little bit, move back. They tax you a little bit, move back. And by the time you get there, you're exhausted. And you get caught.

• 1:39:21Jocko Willink?

  If you are inferior in numbers, do not despair of winning, but do not expect any other success than gained by your skill. So you can win when you're outnumbered, but you better have some serious skill.

• 1:39:39Jocko Willink?

  There are some generals who maintain that an army in position should be attacked in the center. As for me, I am of the opinion that it should be attacked at the weakest point. They say that in breaking the center, you separate the entire army and place yourself in a situation to gain the most brilliant advantages. As for me, I repeat it. I approve of all methods of attacking. Provided they are directed at the point where the enemy's army is the weakest and where the terrain favors them the least.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Attack weak points. Boom.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  This is important. The defensive positions, again, he's talking about defense a little bit more. I would choose only unassailable positions or else I would not occupy them at all. For we have too many advantages in attacking to deprive ourselves of them gratuitously. Let me tell you what I took away from that. This is something that I do all the time. And it's like no big deal. It's no big deal. But when you think about it, it's important. I choose, I would only choose unassailable positions or else I would not occupy them at all. What does that mean to me? What that means is if I don't know something 100%,

• 1:40:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't try and defend it with 100% strength. I see this all the time with businesses, with human beings, with people. They're not, they don't know something 100%, but they're gonna, they're gonna fall on their sword because of it. And it's a total mistake. There's, there's very few things that I feel so knowledgeable about. And I have such a good position on that my position is unassailable. So why, it doesn't take a, it doesn't, it doesn't, you're not a bad person if you go, you know what, I'm not 100% sure on that. Yeah. Here's my opinion, but it's just an opinion. Yeah. Look at people that are.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  The minute you throw down and you're in a position that is assailable, meaning you can get your, your butt kicked, well then guess what? You will. Someone's gonna come and do it.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:52Jocko Willink?

  So just keep an open mind. Don't, don't hunker down on positions that you're not even sure about.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:58Jocko Willink?

  There you go. That's all.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  Seems logical, but here's what's hard, I think, is because usually that's in like some kind of me against you situation, and I'm talking about obviously with just normal people. Usually it's like some sort of a debate that you get into with somebody about something. And it turns into this, okay, it's me against you, I'm right, you're wrong, versus you're right and I'm wrong kind of thing. And it just turns into that. So now it's like now it's kind of some part in their brain kind of thinks, okay, if I say, hey, I'm not really sure, I just gave up the battle, I just gave up.

• 1:42:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  This whole battle that kind of started between us.

• 1:42:32Jocko Willink?

  And don't start there. The key part of this is don't start with, I'm right and you're wrong.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  Start with, you know what? I'm not too informed about this subject. Can you fill me in? And by the way, the more you talk, as we learned, the more you talk, the more I know about your position and my position.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  So I'm gonna let you talk. Go ahead.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  But that is given, the, given the fact or given the circumstance that your brain, your mind isn't in a me against you mode.

• 1:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that's why you don't walk around in that mode.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  That, there is the, the misstep right there.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  There's a, there's a, there's a little dichotomy there too. You wanna know why? Because I'm always me against you. I'm me against everyone.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  But the way I actually win against you is to not defend it in an unassailable position.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  That's how I actually win.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  And you have this thing where you're.

• 1:43:15Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's, that's important. Important, as you say.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's not to mention how you always have, well, you seem to always have this mindset of like the bigger picture, like a big, you know, you say like, you don't necessarily, you're not focused on little battles all the time, you're more focused on the war. So.

• 1:43:32Jocko Willink?

  A little something we call detached.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:34Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I don't really care about. The thing that you're actually fired up about, I don't actually care about. I care about a little tiny bit. I only care about how it's gonna affect the long-term outcome of this broad strategy that I'm over here executing.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yes, so see how you're, you seem to be always aware of that. There's the misstep, I think, that people, they get, um, what do you call it? When you get sucked into those.

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  Target fixation.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  That's not an easy thing to just not do. I'm just not gonna do it. You know, it's not that easy, man.

• 1:44:02Jocko Willink?

  Whatever, you know?

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  Not for you, though.

• 1:44:04Jocko Willink?

  I like it. Uh, back to the book. I have not spoken yet of the reserve. It should be commanded by a skillful general and it should be placed in a locality where he can see everything. So the reason I brought this up is to again, counteract something he said in the beginning of the book, which is right here. He should act on his own initiative. And if he sees that one of the wings are in need of help, he should conduct a reserve there without being called. So again, as much as he says, hey, everyone who listen to me, obey, that's his macho statement. The reality is he wants his, he wants his reserve leader to like step up and make things happen without being told. That's decentralized command.

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  That's how it has to be. I like this. What is practiced in armies is done on a small scale with detachments. So you got, you got your big army? They do the same thing that the little elements out there in the field do. What's my primary example of this? Cover and move.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  So when he says detachments, he means his.

• 1:45:03Jocko Willink?

  He just means small, little, like you break off a little chunk, yeah. A company, a platoon, a battalion.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:45:09Jocko Willink?

  They're out there doing the same thing that the army's doing, that the big regiment, division's doing.

• 1:45:17Jocko Willink?

  Here's a good one. A battle is lost less, less through the loss of men than by discouragement.

• 1:45:26Jocko Willink?

  Remember that one. The, another one. The man who does things without motive or in spite of himself is either insane or a fool. War is decided only by battles and it is not finished except by them. Thus, they have to be fought, but it should be done, but it should be opportunistly and with all the advantages on your side.

• 1:45:55Jocko Willink?

  Concur.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  Here's a, here's a good little section. Reflections on the hazards and misfortunes of war. When a general conducts himself with all prudence, he can still suffer ill fortune. For how many things do not cooperate at all with his labors? So yeah, things are gonna go bad. Weather, harvest, the officers, the health or sickness of his troops, blunders, the death of an officer on whom he counts, discouragement of the troops, exposure of your spies, negligence of the officers who should reckon order the enemy, and finally betrayal.

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  These are the things that should be kept continually before your eyes so as to be prepared for them and so that good fortune will not blind us.

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  You cannot be blinded by good fortune. You're gonna get lucky sometimes.

• 1:46:56Jocko Willink?

  He goes on about this more. If an important detachment is entrusted to a man of judgment and if this man should become sick or should be killed, there is all your business hung up. For no one should imagine that sound heads are common in armies. Yeah, guess what? It's really hard to find good leaders.

• 1:47:18Jocko Willink?

  Offensive generals are rare among us. I only know a few and nevertheless, it is only to these that this sort of detachment can be entrusted. He's talking about aggressive. When he says offensive general, he means aggressive generals. People are gonna make things happen.

• 1:47:36Jocko Willink?

  So good. You know, if you're like a young person or an old person or you're a person listening to this.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:47:43Jocko Willink?

  If you can make things happen.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  It's like incredible.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:47Jocko Willink?

  And you will go far in life.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:49Jocko Willink?

  If you sit back and you wait for things to happen, it's not good and you won't go far in life.

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Jocko Willink?

  Nothing is gonna just happen because you held your, you crossed your fingers. It doesn't make anything happen. You have to make it happen.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  You have to be an aggressive general and they're rare. It's like, you know what, there's actually not even any competition. Like, there's no competition for it. Like, if you're, you're, you are such high, if you're a person that can make things happen, you are in such high demand, you're gonna, you're gonna be set.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:23Jocko Willink?

  There's just not that many people that will make things happen.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Jocko Willink?

  And if you're one of them, you're gonna do great.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true, huh?

• 1:48:29Jocko Willink?

  Hey, am I saying I gotta step on toes and you gotta be all aggro and macho and running around? No, I'm not saying that. You make things happen and you do it tactfully and you're smart, the sky's the limit.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's not like there's just this overabundance of people making.

• 1:48:44Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I work with businesses all the time. The, the, every, every single business I work with is looking for good people that are gonna make things happen.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  That's just, all of them, hundred percent. I never went to a business, they're like, oh yeah, luckily, everyone here, we're maxed out with people that, good, good people that make things happen.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's too many of them, yeah.

• 1:49:05Jocko Willink?

  So be a person that makes things happen.

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a difference.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  As far as what I can tell, there's a difference between someone who's grinding and working real hard at it and then someone who makes it happen. Cuz like, okay, when you kinda make it happen, sure, that usually takes work, I dig it, but at the end of the day, it's like, they're straight up results. Versus the guy who just sorta just works hard.

• 1:49:26Jocko Willink?

  Hey, the guy that works hard's cool too, but there's a difference, you're right. There's a difference between some of that just makes things happen.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:32Jocko Willink?

  And they'll work, they'll do whatever, they'll make things happen, they'll work hard, they'll grind hard, they'll maneuver, they'll go back, they'll re, they'll re, they'll revisit the whole plan.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  To get the result.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Make it happen.

• 1:49:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're gonna make it happen.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, remember I told the story about finding wine for my brother?

• 1:49:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Start that, that was the kind of the, I know, terrible example, I know, but at its core, it's the same thing. You ever seen the wine aisle, it's huge, and you're like, you easily could say, hey, I didn't have that much time, or whatever.

• 1:50:03Jocko Willink?

  You just made it happen, though.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Alright, I don't care, I'll be there for one hour.

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  You're one of those people.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  I'm starting, I'm in the beginning.

• 1:50:12Jocko Willink?

  Starts in the wine aisle at Vons.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, it does.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  Uh, okay, speaking of things happening by luck, you kind of mentioned that. In considering fortuitous events in the chapter of accidents, one can see that a general should be skillful and lucky, and that no one should believe so fully in his star that he abandons himself to it blindly. If you are lucky and trust in luck alone, even if your success reduces you to the defensive, if you are unlucky, you are already there. So if you're counting on luck, you're already on the defensive.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  And if you're unlucky, you're already on defensive. And you know what I say to that is make your luck. That's what I say.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Jocko Willink?

  Get out there and make your luck.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:03Jocko Willink?

  You will have seen by what I have occasioned to delineate concerning war, that promptness, and by promptness, he's talking about speed. Promptness contributes a great deal to success in marches and even more in battles. That is why our army is drilled in such fashion that it acts faster than others.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Violence of action is what they used to teach us in the SEAL teams. How cool is it when you're 19 years old and you're getting taught about violence of action?

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, seems pretty cool.

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  If I heard this podcast and I was 18 years old and I heard someone saying, when you got to the SEAL teams, you get taught about violence of action, I would go sign up immediately.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:51:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, violence of action, like go hard now.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Jocko Willink?

  That's what he's talking about. He calls it promptness, but we don't call it promptness. We call it violence of action.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  From drill, these maneuvers, which enable us to form in the twinkling of an eye, and from this, that speed in all cavalry moments. So again, when I got to the SEAL teams, they didn't say, hey, you need to learn to be able to move in the twinkling of an eye.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  I wouldn't have been, would have been down with that.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:52:15Jocko Willink?

  Violence of action.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:52:17Jocko Willink?

  That's what's important. As for, and that was talking about cavalry, now he talks about on foot. As for the rapid step of the infantry and the attack. It is not, it is not the greater or lesser number of dead that decides an action, but the ground you gain. It is not the fire, but the bearing which defeats the enemy. We say it's not like the, the, the, the shooting that does it, it's how aggressive you are.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:52:45Jocko Willink?

  And so now there's a caveat to that, which is like fire superiority is a real thing. And if you've been on the wrong side of some fire superiority, you're not winning anything. But if you get aggressive, then that is the, one of the most powerful things on the battlefield. And that's exactly how you overcome when, when you're, when someone else has superior firepower on you or fire superiority on you, the way you overcome it is by aggressive action. By sending out someone to a flank and, and do something aggressive, move. That's what you have to do. That's what you do to get out of there. And they taught us, that's another thing they taught us. You get ambushed, you get someone's got fire superiority. What do you do? You attack. That's true, you attack.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  Still recommend that.

• 1:53:37Jocko Willink?

  And a couple more thoughts here from Frederick the Great.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  The general should make sure that new uniforms for the army arrive in time towards spring. That the captains provide shoes, that the wagons, cannon carriages, et cetera of the army are repaired, as well as the saddles and boots of the cavalry. In a word, he should enter into all these details and himself visit the corridors to see what is going on there. If the officers are drilling the recruits, if they are working and to animate them with kind words and reprimands to make them do their duty. So he's a guy that gets in there. The guy that makes things happen, as we've been talking about. And he's also a person that really takes care of his people and make sure that they are taken care of.

• 1:54:27Jocko Willink?

  If you take care of your people, your people are going to take care of you.

• 1:54:32Jocko Willink?

  He closes out and close out Frederick the Great's thoughts right here. I had to pick something to close on. There's a lot of stuff, but I figured this one would would do a decent job. "It should be said to the shame of young men that debauchery and laziness often make them prefer ease

• 1:54:56Jocko Willink?

  to glory."

• 1:55:00Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. And obviously, once again, um, I think we see that leadership is leadership is leadership. And in different times and different places and different battles and different circumstances, the fundamental principles do not change.

• 1:55:23Jocko Willink?

  They do not change. And we do see them with different angles and you see different nuances. And that provides us the ability to understand them with greater depth.

• 1:55:37Jocko Willink?

  So that, so that we can become better leaders is what I'm talking about here. Not, maybe not, maybe not as great as Frederick the Great.

• 1:55:48Jocko Willink?

  But if we become better leaders, we can take better care of our teams. And if we take care of our teams, our teams will take care of us. And that

• 1:55:57Jocko Willink?

  is what leadership is. Frederick the Great.

• 1:56:03Jocko Willink?

  Now, we make this podcast so that we can learn. And I learn a lot from this podcast myself. And we also do it on a podcast so that other people can learn with us, which is seems fair. And if anyone wants to help support the podcast, there's actually a bunch of different ways that you can do it, which we'll talk about. And it's not just like, hey, just support the podcast. It's not. That's not the deal.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:37Jocko Willink?

  It's more like just get in the game.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Get in the game, yes, yes.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what it's about. Just support the podcast would be, uh, send, you know, send money. Or, hey, we're gonna put the podcasts behind a firewall. And if you wanna get them, you give me money. That's not what we're saying.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  Cause we're getting a lot of, we're already getting a lot of the podcast.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  So we're good. But if you wanna get deeper into the game.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  You can do that too. You can do that one way is our company. Origin USA.

• 1:57:15Jocko Willink?

  You can do it. Farmington, Maine. What is it? American made products. A hundred percent American made. Without compromise. Get some. We got ghee's and rash guards, which are the best in the world.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  No, no doubt. No doubt.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Factually, I would say.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  Factually. The, the ghee's are made of a blend. They're not a ghee from nineteen fifty-six, which is what all other ghee's are.

• 1:57:47Jocko Willink?

  Just ghee's from nineteen fifty-six. Right?

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:57:51Jocko Willink?

  They're not. They're modern.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Modern. Made for jujitsu.

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  For jujitsu.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  Indeed, indeed.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. And also.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  The joggers. I know, I know. But yes, the joggers, most comfortable jog. So. And, you know, I, I consider myself, I fancy myself as a connoisseur of comfort.

• 1:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:58:16Jocko Willink?

  I, I consider myself a connoisseur of suffering.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  It's the dichotomy.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  There's a dichotomy even within the podcast.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Within the group. Yes, yes, yes. So if you are interested in that, I would recommend the joggers.

• 1:58:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm not interested in it. So if you're interested, you can get them. If not.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  Oh, by the way, you can jog in them too, by the way.

• 1:58:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, then I guess that ups the suffering level a little bit.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  You can do suffering stuff in the comfortable joggers. That's, that's kind of the key. In a way, what else?

• 1:58:46Jocko Willink?

  Also, there's supplements there. A bunch of different kinds.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah. Joint warfare, joint supplements. Yeah, so joint warfare is, and this is totally just me doing this, me categorizing it. So the krill oil, I always looked at like, okay, omega threes, that's for general health, you know, so joints and other stuff, by the way, your eyeballs, other stuff too. It's gonna keep it more in the game, healthy, whatever. So your joints, as they degenerate over time, boom, the omega threes from the krill oil, which is the best absorption compared to fish oil and all these other supplements, which are fine, but krill is way better. Jaco super krill oil, even better, more antioxidants, by the way, factually. I always considered those as just general health. I did.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  And so the joint warfare, that's like, if you're getting nuts, doing jujitsu, that's kind of the thing, right? Even when I first started jujitsu, Brant, I think it was, he was like, hey, glucosamine and chondroitin, this is gonna help you from just from all the twisting that you do, especially when you train every day, this is back, you know, training five, six days a week hardcore, competing or whatever. And he was like, yeah, glucosamine and chondroitin. So I always like viewed those two like, so the joint warfare has glucosamine and chondroitin and curcumin, you know, that always gotta add the extra good stuff. Yeah, yeah, I dig it, good. So it's like, if your joints are being like hammered on, because you're carrying a pickaxe all day or something like this. Anyway, that's how I kind of view the thing.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  So, I had surgery on my bicep, I know, I'm gonna go into it again. I'm gonna give you an update on it. So, literally, I'm no cast, I'm no cast, no bandage, no stitch, no nothing, right now.

• 2:00:28Jocko Willink?

  That's amazing.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  In fact, if you see me, you wouldn't even think, maybe if...

• 2:00:34Jocko Willink?

  I didn't remember that you had surgery until you told me today.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted the attention.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  But, the, and that's funny you say that, because sometimes I even forget I had surgery. Like, you know what, like, you do just everyday stuff, putting on a belt or something like that.

• 2:00:51Jocko Willink?

  Again, I'm not gonna try to drag this out, but you had the exact same surgery on the other arm, the healing process was much, much slower. The only, I guess, difference between the two scenarios, there's actually two differences. I said the only, but there's two differences. One, you were much younger in your first surgery, which would indicate...

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  That probably you would heal quicker.

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  But that did not happen and that has not happened. In fact, the opposite has happened. You have healed much, much faster. It's not even close, much faster.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:24Jocko Willink?

  And the only other thing is that joint warfare, krill oil.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  That's the only thing I did different. Yes. In fact, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's the only thing I did different. Um, to the point where I hear it's in the spirit of accuracy. I don't know technically, biologically, how much this is healing as far as my tendon healing to the bone. I don't know. There's no way of knowing, but I do know this. I forget that I had surgery three weeks ago, by the way, to reattach my whole muscle to my bone. They drill a hole in your bone. They put it in that hole. They put an anchor on the other side of your bone attached and it's, bro, it's not nothing. It's really something. And I forget that I had that surgery three weeks ago, by the way.

• 2:02:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's good. Joint warfare, awesome krill oil. I've been on that forever and I highly recommend it because it helps you with everything. And now you're saying it helps me with my vision too?

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Well, omega threes helps you with a bunch of stuff in your body, including my vision, vision, all that stuff.

• 2:02:25Jocko Willink?

  That's good to know. I just thought I had said sharp vision.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, omega threes, man. Look into it. It's all good. Also, discipline. You need discipline.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  You need self-discipline in your life, but you're not talking about that, are you?

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Uh, and it's not even imposed discipline. Actually, it's kind of somewhat imposed. You're imposing it on yourself, but not really because you made it taste. Okay, the supplement's called discipline, but you made it taste good. So it's not imposed. It's welcomed. It's like welcomed.

• 2:02:56Jocko Willink?

  So I was, Dave and I were up working with a company. Actually, it's me, Dave and Leif, and we're up working with a company and. You know, whenever we work, whenever we get together, it's always like we're going hard. And you know, there's not a lot of sleep going on or whatever and workouts and all that. And you ever um, you ever seen those like videos or memes where they got one word that means a lot of different things? Like, I remember there was an old one about dude. And it said like, oh, it could mean, you know, how's it going? Like dude? Or it could mean, why did you do that? Like dude?

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:03:30Jocko Willink?

  And the other day I was with Dave and we were at this gig and you know, like I said, we're working. And he sees me with a, because you know, Dave's kind of addicted to discipline.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:41Jocko Willink?

  And he sees me with a, I took a water bottle, whatever, you know, normal plastic water bottle and I poured discipline in it because I always travel with it. And as I'm, as I, I'm now standing with a clear plastic water bottle and Dave sees that I, that it's discipline, right? And he just looks at me and he goes, bruh.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  And I totally knew exactly what he meant. He wanted some discipline bad. And I was like, yeah, man, I got enough for you. So I hooked up Dave and then he caught on fire.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, on fire cognitively.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes, because we were, well, we did some physical stuff in the morning, but we didn't take discipline for that. Uh, it wasn't that hardcore. It wasn't like we were rolling. But yeah, he wanted the cognitive enhancement for putting together all the different applications of extreme ownership up in the company. So, yeah.

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:04:34Jocko Willink?

  No big deal.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  And that's what it is ultimately is a cognitive enhancing supplement, but Jaco's style.

• 2:04:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you know what? This is the thing that I gotta figure out. Because I've got, you know, I've got my own little methodologies of how I operate just across the board. There's just operations happening, right? That's just how I roll. For instance, the discipline on, in, when I go in the field or when I go on a trip, I have a little, little Tupperware thing that's small and I put it up, a little elastic band on it, I carry in my travel bag, whatever. It's all good. I haven't figured out how to do this with milk yet, which is a problem. Because here's the thing with milk. Milk tastes freaking good. And if you don't know what milk is, it's, yeah, it's got protein in it. That's awesome. It's got. What are they, what are they called? Probiotics, which is awesome. And I never took those before because I always thought that that was kind of like just like a yoga thing.

• 2:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Right? But they're not, but so, but they, but they're like, no, like talking to Brian and Pete, like, no, no, no, you definitely want to, so we put them in there. And now that definitely your gut will feel better, but whatever. I don't care about any of that. It tastes freaking good, right? And so it gives you the ultimate, gives you the ultimate like satisfaction. You know, let's say you have a giant steak, which I eat a lot of giant steaks. Have you ever eaten a giant steak and you got done and you were still like, you know what? I just want like something a little bit.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  No, not that I can remember, maybe.

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  So I get that way where I want, maybe it's all those years where I should just get after the mint chocolate chip ice cream at the end of the night. And so sometimes that little, that little, I have a little flashback and I get done with the big steak and I'm a should be all happy. And instead I'm like, ah, man, I really want some. If you have milk with you, you're good.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  You want your dessert. That's what you want.

• 2:06:19Jocko Willink?

  I didn't want to say that, but it looks, so anyways, if you get milk, you can have dessert every night. You can have dessert every day. You can have breakfast milk and dinner.

• 2:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's a, it's a meal. And actually Leif was asking me, Leif's like, what does milk mean anyways? I was like, I made it up. He's like, what do you mean you made it up? I said, I made it up.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  How did you, what was the making up process for milk?

• 2:06:41Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever tasted it?

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  And what did you think when you first tasted it?

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Just taste like a dessert.

• 2:06:47Jocko Willink?

  To me, I was like, oh, man, this is good milk. And it just came out.

• 2:06:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's no other way to describe it. It wasn't milk. It wasn't ice cream. It was something else. It was something new. So there you go, milk.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  It's a mint chocolate milkshake with probiotics in it, which is a big deal. You were like, oh yeah, I guess it has probiotics, which I guess is cool. That's your whole, that's a huge deal.

• 2:07:10Jocko Willink?

  No, I know that now, that now that I realize how it settles your stomach. But you know what else? Speaking of Dave Burke, Dave, you know how like I'm really into mint chocolate milkshake?

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, I do.

• 2:07:21Jocko Willink?

  His flavor happens to be peanut butter, chocolate, like that's his deal. So he's, he's like a crack addict, like wins that, wins that, wins that, wins that chocolate peanut butter coming out. So anyways, it's coming out. Um, I don't, and then, and then he said, it's not coming out for a long time. And I was like, yeah, it's gonna be like another three, four weeks or five weeks. And he's like, I know that's a long time. So take it easy, Dave. We got you.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dave, I'm be honest, I agree with Dave. I feel the exact same way. And peanut butter chocolate happens to be my second favorite as well.

• 2:07:52Jocko Willink?

  What's your first favorite?

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  Mint chocolate.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you're in the game?

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:07:56Jocko Willink?

  I know you're fully in the game with me on that one.

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Actually, they're even interchangeable.

• 2:08:00Jocko Willink?

  We never made that connection.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might have mentioned it. Maybe I did it.

• 2:08:04Jocko Willink?

  No, I would have remembered that.

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  So you're pumped.

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  Fired up, yes, sir.

• 2:08:09Jocko Willink?

  You're all about that, Malk.

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, I am.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  You're a hundred percent on board.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  I try not to admit too much of my, my liking for desserts around you. I, I tame that back, but the, hey, the facts are the facts and yeah. Malk and actually I did mention this where it's like, you know, you do the one scoop or whatever. I don't do the one scoop, boy. I put in the, in the big thirty ounce. You do two, three scoops even.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  How much milk are you putting there?

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  Put a little bit of, I don't know, I fill it up.

• 2:08:36Jocko Willink?

  Well, you just said thirty ounce, so you're talking thirty ounces.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably not to the top top.

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  So twenty, twenty, twenty-three ounces?

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  Sure, twenty-four, twenty-five, maybe even.

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  And you're putting two, three scoops in?

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Three scoops in and I'm not saying.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  How thick is that? Cause I'm doing like twenty ounces of milk and two scoops.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  It's not extra thick, I don't think, but that's just by my standard. I don't know, like, what's the standard? I don't really take protein powders or nothing like this, so I don't know the standard.

• 2:09:02Speaker 01

  Hey, thick, good. Put it, actually put an egg in there, put it in the blender.

• 2:09:05Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  Right, you really wanna get nuts. I do that for like the consistency for the experience. No.

• 2:09:12Jocko Willink?

  All right, so that's Malk. You wanna go, you want some, get some. OriginMaine.com.

• 2:09:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:09:17Jocko Willink?

  OriginMaine.com is where you order it. And you can also get it on Amazon. FYI, if you didn't know that. Hey, speaking of OriginMaine.com, if you wanna come to the Jiu-Jitsu Immersion Camp, it is August twenty-sixth through September second. There's two, what, phases?

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  Sessions.

• 2:09:34Jocko Willink?

  Two sessions, or you can go to the whole thing. Somebody asked if we're gonna go to the Origin Factory. If you wanna come see the factory, yes, we're going to the, the factory visit isn't in the middle of the week. And we'll be doing Jiu-Jitsu all the time, so get some.

• 2:09:48Jocko Willink?

  And we'll see there, I'm going, Echo's going, Echo's gonna be incapacitated.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  Hmm, quasi capacitated.

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you'd just be in a knowledge acquiring mode?

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:02Jocko Willink?

  And a knowledge sharing mode?

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, technically, I, I, I could roll, I could roll, but-

• 2:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay, then we roll with that, next question.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  If Brian Viglione comes and starts getting nuts, I can't roll with him, well, maybe I could. No, I shouldn't, it'd be irresponsible for me to roll hard, put it that way.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he didn't care, he came here, rolled, his knee was jacked up, right?

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  His knee, yeah, but it's different, like, a muscle tendon attachment is directly correlated, injury-wise, directly correlated with how hard you go on that muscle, directly.

• 2:10:35Jocko Willink?

  So you'll be a limited basis, but you'll be there to share knowledge, receive knowledge, hang out, kick it, eat lobster.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  I will roll, yes.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Not with everyone.

• 2:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Echo's gonna be there, I'm gonna be there, Dave Burke is gonna be there, Leif is gonna be there, JP, I believe, is marginal right now, or not a hundred percent, but whatever, we'll be there, we'll be hanging out, and like, black belts galore, I forgot that part, black belts galore, there'll be a bunch of black belts, and then every other belt.

• 2:11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  Which is a huge deal, knowledge-wise, even training-wise.

• 2:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  Cause most everyone's gonna be training.

• 2:11:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  So you get to experience like, cause, cause, um, yeah, sometimes it's like, if you've, some people have never rolled with a black belt.

• 2:11:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, some people never, no, some people have never trained before and they're gonna come to the camp, that happened last year, people have never trained before, came to the camp, but I'm sorry, I cut you off, and you were gonna say that, some people have never rolled with a black belt before.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  Right, right, like, even if they've been training for even like a year or something like that, some, you know, sometimes that's how it goes, you know? Or if it's like, hey, I wanna roll with Jaco specifically, are you gonna roll though, right?

• 2:11:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're good.

• 2:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm good, last year I had a rib issue, this year, no issues whatsoever.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  No rib issues, good.

• 2:11:43Jocko Willink?

  So that's that.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, boom, and also, switching gears, just another good way to support the podcast and oneself, Jaco's a store, it's called Jaco's Store. Website jocko store.com. I know, super simple, but that's the way we keep it. I keep it simple now, too.

• 2:12:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a law of combat, actually.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? Boom. And you practice what you preach, as we all know. Anyway, jocko store.com. This is where you can get Jaco gear.

• 2:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like you can get rash guards.

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:12:17Jocko Willink?

  And you used to always go on a big tangent about how it's for all activities.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Sure, it is.

• 2:12:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I do, the water's warm right now, by the way, out here in California. The water's warm. You do not need a wetsuit at this time to surf. And so, yeah, the Origin rash guards, very effective for surfing. The Jaco rash guards, also very effective for surfing.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  And cycling.

• 2:12:41Jocko Willink?

  And cycling and whatever else. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  And everything. That's, um, yes, again, jocko store.com is where you can get all this stuff. T-shirts, the ones that say, discipline equals freedom, get after it. Tank tops, by the way.

• 2:12:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. And also, on Amazon, there's fake Jaco t-shirts.

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm cool. I'm happy that you're in, like, trying to get in the game, and that's cool. It's a cool way to, like, feel cool about stuff.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:11Jocko Willink?

  It, and you can do that, but you are not supporting.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:13:15Jocko Willink?

  That support does not go to, that support goes to someone that.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  A pirate.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  A pirate, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  But not a, like, a.

• 2:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Not a cool pirate.

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  Not a cool pirate, you know, yeah.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  Just a thief.

• 2:13:25Jocko Willink?

  So, watch out for those. If you get your t-shirts, get them from jocko store.com. Also, you can get trucker hats.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:13:31Jocko Willink?

  Which you seem to be really surprised that trucker hats look cool on me. You told me, you were like, I didn't really picture the situation going on.

• 2:13:40Speaker 01

  I don't know that I.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  And you can get the flex, where they flex fit.

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  Flex fit, see, that's.

• 2:13:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what everyone's all pumped for. I'm old school.

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then beanies, too.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Which, which beanies, for me, this is a, so I sleep when I'm on planes.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  When I'm on a plane, I sleep. I put a beanie on my head.

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  Well, you sleep for, like, four minutes.

• 2:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  In my experience.

• 2:14:01Jocko Willink?

  You've been on the plane with me.

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, I have.

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so I'll put my head up against the, the bulkhead. As they call it in the plane and the beanie keeps your head from a little tiny vibrations going the whole time. You just need that little beanie. It's like a pillow.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:13Jocko Willink?

  So I put on the beanie and sleep. If you see me, don't bother me. And then I'll wake up and four minutes later be ready to rock and roll and I'll write another book.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. See, so when you say, oh, I sleep on the plane. Here's the thing. I sleep on the plane.

• 2:14:26Jocko Willink?

  No, you sleep on the plane.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  That's amazing.

• 2:14:29Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:14:30Jocko Willink?

  I was impressed by your sleeping capabilities. You you you had sunglasses on.

• 2:14:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:34Jocko Willink?

  You were asleep for four straight hours in a. You look like those, what are those, the Chinese statues? In the big vault where they have like thousands of Chinese soldiers. All lined up.

• 2:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 2:14:51Jocko Willink?

  Anyways, they're.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  That's what I look like.

• 2:14:52Jocko Willink?

  You just look like a, you did not move.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:55Jocko Willink?

  You were out and you did not move. Your head stayed straight up and you just sat there asleep.

• 2:14:59Speaker 01

  Just so disciplined sleeping.

• 2:15:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when I hear you say I sleep on the plane, I'm like.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  You know, it depends on what you mean by sleep, but I get it. And the beanies eliminate that makes sense.

• 2:15:12Jocko Willink?

  They allow it and they keep the head warm.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say they do have other uses and even let's face it, they look kinda cool.

• 2:15:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. You don't know about that either. You don't know about sleeping or looking cool. Nonetheless, they are available. That is true. Also, women's stuff.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  A lot of times people ask me, hey, make more women's stuff. And I will, but there's women's stuff on their tanks and shirts and whatnot. The rash guards are kinda for everybody as well. But yeah, good stuff on there. Good women's stuff.

• 2:15:41Jocko Willink?

  Good stuff to get aftered in and hoodies.

• 2:15:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget about hoodies.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna make a new hoodie. You might not approve of this, I think.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  Why are we making things that I don't approve of?

• 2:15:51Speaker 01

  I, you know, sometimes, hey, look, I don't break the rules. Ever.

• 2:15:55Jocko Willink?

  Why won't I approve of it?

• 2:15:56Speaker 01

  Except sometimes, uh, cuz it's lightweight. It's a lighter weight hoodie.

• 2:16:01Jocko Willink?

  Can we designate it?

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  It might be zip up.

• 2:16:03Jocko Willink?

  As the Hawaiian version? Wait, why would someone want a hoodie that's not gonna keep them warm?

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  It'll keep you a little bit warm, cuz sometime, cuz you're going, you can't, you know when you're sleeping, or when you're trying to go sleep at night, right? And then you put the covers on, you're like, dang, I'm too hot. You take the covers off. Oh, it's like too cold, so you gotta get in that little zone that you can't get into sometimes. Every once in a while, it's like that. So sometimes, in life, it's like that.

• 2:16:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay, while we're doing this, can we make ultra? I want the heaviest possible weight that they make in America.

• 2:16:32Speaker 01

  This is what we're gonna do. I'm gonna get with Pete.

• 2:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  And we're gonna straight up fabricate whatever.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Even, yeah, even when you talk to Pete, like, let me get the samples. I want them in my hands. I wanna feel the weight. I'm not playing around with this Hawaiian, uh, I love Hawaii, as you know, it's my homeland, but I'm not down with the Hawaiian sweatshirts.

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  Hey, so, Hawaiian sweatshirt. Where are you gonna wear a heavy, heavy hoodie? Not here. You're talking when you go to Montana or something like this.

• 2:17:04Jocko Willink?

  Montana, Michigan, Boston, Maine.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:10Jocko Willink?

  It gets cold in the morning here.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  Okay, how, how cold?

• 2:17:13Jocko Willink?

  Thirty-three degrees.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  The heaviest hoodie.

• 2:17:16Jocko Willink?

  Thirty-six degrees, thirty-eight degrees. Go surfing in the morning sometime with me. I'll see what's up in the winter time.

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna wear a hoodie surfing.

• 2:17:22Jocko Willink?

  January. No, no, you wear it too.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  To go surfing, okay. Alright, hey, I'm gonna take your word for that, and actually, I have a heavy hoodie, I think.

• 2:17:31Jocko Willink?

  You have a?

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  Like a super ultra, and I only wear it when it's unreasonably cold, in my opinion. I'm from Kauai, by the way.

• 2:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Which for you is like sixty-two.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, fifty-five. Either way, boom, that's what I'm gonna do, the summer one. You know what? I think this is what I predict. I predict people will like that one.

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  I think so very much, actually.

• 2:17:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we'll see. We'll check your fashion sense, um, which I have none, so we go with it. Uh, hey, also subscribe to the podcast, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify. Someone just told me Spotify. On your podcast on Spotify, we can fast forward without having a subscription or something like that, so.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  We're just on Spotify, just full on, whatever. It's all good. And also leave, if you want to leave a review, give us some feedback, that's cool. And you can do like one dude did, who put an umlaut over every O in his review. So obviously he was in the game.

• 2:18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cool.

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  YouTube too.

• 2:18:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, the YouTube, the thing about YouTube is Echo makes, he's not gonna say this because he's super humble, right? Nobody makes the, the, the, the enhanced videos, which are legit. And if you want to watch them, you gotta go there. And he seems to be putting up more and more excerpts of little videos, little clips of the podcast, so you can share them. Shareable.

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:06Jocko Willink?

  Wasn't there some like lunch thing called a shareable?

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  I think that was a Lunchable.

• 2:19:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay, yeah, sorry.

• 2:19:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Sure, no, no, no, good, you know, man, you know, you're kind of new, but.

• 2:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Been drinking too much chocolate.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yes, very sure. I tried to you, uh, uh, choose or put up the ones that I think applied to all of us in one way or another. So many times like people will say, hey, this is just on time right here. This little message, because they were thinking this or something like that, because it applies to all of us.

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, one of our bros that's kind of, uh, you know, we're not super tight, but we're, we're, we're, we're down. He came up to me and he was like, hey, man. He went through a little rough patch with a, with a female.

• 2:19:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:50Jocko Willink?

  And he went through the whole breakup scenario.

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:52Jocko Willink?

  And he was like, I watched that video a hundred times.

• 2:19:54Speaker 01

  The breakup one?

• 2:19:55Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like you said. You happen to put that out there and he happened to, somebody, somebody, one of our other friends sent it to him like, hey, check this out. And he was like, oh, okay, got it. Now he's moving on, as it should be.

• 2:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's way simpler and more effective. I mean, in a scenario like that where, rather than send me, hey, remember that episode with that in it? It's like two, two and a half hours long. Hey, re, uh, watch, I, uh, timestamp this. It is a good message. I'm not gonna do all that, you know, but it was this excerpt.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  You, you just made it sound like it's all laziness. Not necessarily laziness, bro. Like, there's, sometimes there's some nuggets that just need to be put out there to the world.

• 2:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Jocko Willink?

  And it's not just because you didn't want, some people don't have time to listen to everything. So it's just, just, you know.

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Jaco McNuggets. I remember that one. Um, also, good way to support is on it.com slash Jaco. Good fitness stuff on there. I just got some, um, you know what? You know what I got? Elk, bacon elk, you know, like warrior bars? They're warrior bars and bacon. I think they're brand new. Did you get those too?

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep, they just sent them out.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  So good.

• 2:21:05Jocko Willink?

  So good. You know what I have for you too? Is I have a mace for you. I have a 20-pound mace that I've been hoarding at my house and I apologize, but I owe it to you. I'll bring it next time.

• 2:21:15Speaker 01

  It's okay, bro.

• 2:21:15Jocko Willink?

  Cause they're, they're, you know what I use those for? People say, what do you do with those? Basically, I swing them around like a maniac, psycho barbarian with a battle axe.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:24Jocko Willink?

  But they're a little shorter, uh, but they're heavy and I put it into my, I'll put it into my

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  routine. I don't say routine because that's every day. I put it into a workout, almost as like a little mobility slash cardio slash something break. It's, it's a good tool to have. It's a good tool to have. I got the little, you think the 20-pounder, the 20-pounder looks light? When I give it to you, you're gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna, no, it's, it's heavy.

• 2:21:53Speaker 01

  Well, consider aside from a 20-pound weight, like what weighs 20 pounds? Nothing. Huge things. Your TV or something like this. Like, and then you see a mace, I mean, how, how, how long is it?

• 2:22:04Jocko Willink?

  It's not even as long as you show. It's probably, might, might not even be two feet long. It's 20 pounds.

• 2:22:10Speaker 01

  1T pounds. Yeah. So your, your eyes and your brain and your body kinda like, there's kinda miscalculating. You know, by observation, you pick it up, you're like, dang, this thing is heavy.

• 2:22:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. They're heavy.

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So do it. Yeah, actually, that's perfect. I go walk down this canyon right outside my house. This is canyon. And I always feel like I want to carry something, you know?

• 2:22:28Jocko Willink?

  This thing, actually, if you had it as a weapon, it would not be effective. It's too heavy.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:34Jocko Willink?

  It's like that. That's how heavy it is. It'd be cool to carry, and I'm sure if you had to bludgeon someone to death with it, you could certainly do that. But it would be not an ideal weapon against a mountain lion, which is like the big threat here when you're walking in the canyon behind your house. You know, you get the mountain lion, you're gonna rear that mace up and that thing got you by the neck.

• 2:22:54Speaker 01

  Actually, it's more just to get. Usually I'll grab like a thin stick. Just, it's just to kind of have and it's just fun, you know?

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:00Speaker 01

  But a mace, that'd be solid.

• 2:23:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  Cause you're fighting four arms. Yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to that one. But eh, that elk, uh, I, I don't even know if they call it a worry bar, but it's elk bacon.

• 2:23:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  There's uh, 21 grams of protein in that. 21.

• 2:23:15Jocko Willink?

  That's good. And it's one of those things that can kind of keep you on the path if you're in the mood for a little something.

• 2:23:21Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:23:21Jocko Willink?

  Kind of like psychological warfare, the album.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  You can get that on, well, you can get it on iTunes, Google Play, MP3. It's a little album talking about how to stay on the path. That's all. Get some.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, actually, in the spirit of meticulous accuracy, it'll help you. It's an album about telling you why and how you should stand the path in those moments of weakness when you kind of feel, actually, it's not when you feel like getting off the path, the path. It's when you don't feel like staying on that path for that moment. This'll get you right back on there. Hundred percent effectiveness.

• 2:23:58Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Willink is the artist.

• 2:24:00Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yeah, you can get it on Amazon, iTunes, wherever you get MP3s, that's where you get it. Also, Jaco White Tea. Dry tea and in a can, by the way. So the dry tea, here's the thing, I didn't know this, so I'm, I'm gonna say it, but and I know a lot of people be like, oh, ah, the da. Already knew that, remember? Like we were saying earlier. But dry tea, dry tea is like the actual one you gotta brew in.

• 2:24:27Jocko Willink?

  This is tea bags then?

• 2:24:28Speaker 01

  Yes, like that. Yeah, like in a. Or whatever.

• 2:24:31Jocko Willink?

  The Jaco White Tea comes in a tea bag.

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  Wait, can't you have it like, what do you call that, loose leaf?

• 2:24:35Jocko Willink?

  Loose leaf. We do not have loose leaf at this time.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  Dry.

• 2:24:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, for the seven people out there that want loose leaf, passionately, I feel you. I feel you. And I just had a woman the other day that was like, hey, I really want loose leaf tea. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. And there's six other of you that want that.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:24:54Jocko Willink?

  And as we grow, eventually we'll do loose leaf for the purists.

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:00Jocko Willink?

  For the purists that wanna deal with that.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:04Jocko Willink?

  That have the time to deal with that. So right now, no loose leaf. You gotta go with the tea bag or?

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  In a can.

• 2:25:10Jocko Willink?

  Or you can get the can.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  Which strangely, I'm the opposite. I don't know if I'd be considered opposite of the loose leaf artisans, but the can, I pound way more of the can than the, than, because I don't like brew it, right?

• 2:25:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  But the can, oh, I'm popping them every day. Surprisingly too, because I don't, you know how you, how there's tea drinkers, technically, whatever? I'm not a tea drinker.

• 2:25:31Jocko Willink?

  This is what I think is gonna be interesting.

• 2:25:35Jocko Willink?

  It tastes really good.

• 2:25:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:25:37Jocko Willink?

  It makes you feel really good. It's refreshing, right? It's just got, it's got that thing that just like is good.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 2:25:47Jocko Willink?

  I, I think, get one of the standard energy drinks. They're filled with sugar. They, and they, they, they got everything in there to make them taste good. That's what they're set up for. And they got the caffeine that's gonna make you feel good and all this stuff. As good as those things are, the, the Dark White Tea is, it's better. It's, it's, it's like, if you had the choice of one of the two, like, let's, okay, let's be real. I'm gonna be real here with you right now for a second.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:26:17Jocko Willink?

  If I had the choice between like a salad and a mint chocolate chip ice cream, milkshake. If I had to spill my heart.

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Spill your heart out.

• 2:26:28Jocko Willink?

  To you right now.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Do it.

• 2:26:29Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, if you put those two in front of me, nine times out of 10, I'm gonna get the mint chocolate chip milkshake. Occasionally, I'll be like, okay, I'll have the salad, because I'm really in the mood for that. But nine times out of 10, like, I'm just gonna go with what you know, which is that mint chocolate chip milkshake.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:26:45Jocko Willink?

  Is good. With this, nine times out of the ten, you're actually gonna get Jock White Tea. You're not gonna take the thing, you're not gonna get the thing that's been engineered to be like, attack your taste buds and make them massage and feel good.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, I know, you know, I think this is just obviously an assumption, but when you get like, okay, you have a Jock White Tea in a can, then you have a standard energy drink. The standard energy drink, I think the taste is more of a secondary thing when they make it. It's more like, you know, get you, like the caffeine and the, the whatever.

• 2:27:17Jocko Willink?

  But they make that stuff taste good.

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  They try to, yes, but that's secondary. That's why like, bruh, taste a energy drink, it's like, okay, you know, all the taste, okay, tastes good. But it's like, it can be an acquired taste, it tastes kinda weird, to be honest with you. And that's a good point with this, it's like, I used to, I don't wanna overuse the word refreshing, don't wanna do that.

• 2:27:36Jocko Willink?

  Well, what I was just gonna say is, in order to not overuse that word, have you ever, okay, remember when you were a kid? And you were doing something, you're all hot, sweaty, tired, like it's hot outside and you're thirsty. And so, you're, you get a Gatorade, and you drink the Gatorade, and when you get done with the Gatorade, you're still thirsty? Cause it's got whatever it has in it that doesn't taste like water, it's like too far away from water. When you, when you drink the tea, it's like an actual, it actually satisfies the actual thirst.

• 2:28:08Speaker 01

  Yes, it does, yeah, cause it's, it's super mild.

• 2:28:11Jocko Willink?

  It is mild, it is mild.

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  But it does have a weird kinda, I mean, I don't wanna overstate this, but it's like this crispy kinda feeling. It could be the can, it could be the can, I don't know, you know how you drink.

• 2:28:23Jocko Willink?

  No, I get the same thing, man, I get the same thing.

• 2:28:26Speaker 01

  So how's this, so two occasions, this is legitimate and recent, that's why, so two occasions, one time I was feeling kinda sick. I was sick, I was straight up sick, and.

• 2:28:37Speaker 01

  I was feeling like, oh, you know, I was sick to the point where I gotta take like one of these, you know, I don't know, NyQuil, not NyQuil, it was like Tylenol, you know, the liquid one? The little, the red, syrupy liquid one? And it's been so long since I took anything like that. So I was like, I don't know how much you take. Let me, so I put it in a little shot glass that I had and I just pounded it. Apparently it was too much. So I'm like, oh, I'm like jammed up, super jammed up, like super nauseous, head all messed up, like, oh, I couldn't really like think that good. I was messed up and we had to record that day. So this was earlier, like in the morning and this, I'm like, shoot, I'm hoping I'm off this thing. I just kinda laid down or whatever and I, bro, I wasn't off it. When I came in and recorded, I was like, man, I'm like super nauseous. I'm not feeling good. So I tried to drink like some, a caffeine thing to kind of, bro, it didn't help. It was messing me up.

• 2:29:21Speaker 01

  So I grabbed one of these and instantly now, not the kind like I drank some and then I ended up feeling better. It was like I drank it, I was like dang, instantly felt better. So I was like, you know, it could have been a timing thing, whatever.

• 2:29:33Jocko Willink?

  No, a hundred percent, full credit goes to you.

• 2:29:35Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. But the thing is, that's what I'm thinking.

• 2:29:38Jocko Willink?

  Scientifically proven.

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  Total anecdotal, I realize, but, and then another time I drank, I, okay, so I'm unlike you, like I do like coffee, you know, for the, for the caffeine, right? In the morning, whatever. So I come across this coffee. The brand will remain nameless, but it's 1.75 times, almost two times the caffeine. 200%, it's 175% of the caffeine. That's a lot of caffeine. So I'm like, hey, I'm gonna get this and you know, if it's like too crazy, I'll just make less of it or drink less, water it down, whatever. So I make some first time, it totally messes you up. It puts you, caffeine is like a curve where you wanna hit it at the top of the wave, you know, where it catches you. If you drink too much, it makes you feel jittery. And then if you really drink too much, it makes you feel kinda sick, in my experience.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  This, just regular, the same amount I drink of regular coffee, it put me over into nausea immediately. No like.

• 2:30:30Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you've got a sensitive belly, dude.

• 2:30:32Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't like pain, like something, it'll, it's like, it's in your head, you know, it makes your head all wiggly and whatever. And so I'm like, man, I messed up for this thing. So the next day I'm like, I'm not gonna drink that. I was like, no, you know what? I'll water it down. So I water it down, boom, same exact thing, messed me up. And it happened to be yet another day that we record. So I come in, I'm like, okay, and I grab another one of these teas again instantly, like immediately. It didn't like, oh, help it wear off later or whatever. Immediately made me feel better. No nausea. I'm not saying this is an anti nausea medication, but I will tell you this.

• 2:31:07Jocko Willink?

  You're just providing multiple examples of how it cured all diseases.

• 2:31:12Speaker 01

  Yes, I will say that about the Jocko White tea in a can.

• 2:31:16Jocko Willink?

  Organic, by the way.

• 2:31:17Speaker 01

  Certified, yes sir.

• 2:31:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, alright, cool. Uh, got some books. That I've written and you can get those on, well, you can get them where books are sold.

• 2:31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, best one is not the best one, the current one that I'm on right now. Me and my daughter, Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. Actually, she was very, very excited about that. I think because you signed it too, but yeah, but yeah, that's a good one. Um, and she happened to be, you know, in the beginning, the paper mache, uh.

• 2:31:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pumpkin.

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  Pumpkin. Yeah, she was really into that, by the way, but she has a situation where one of the girls in her class is like. She's not a teaser necessarily, but she's just bossy. You know, you gotta just, you gotta deal with people on.

• 2:32:04Jocko Willink?

  I get a lot of Warrior Kid podcast questions about bossy kids.

• 2:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it, yeah, and it makes sense, but yeah, she's, she's all on that big time.

• 2:32:14Jocko Willink?

  And so that's another thing worth mentioning is there's the Warrior Kid books, two of them. Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. And there's also Warrior Kid Podcast called Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:28Jocko Willink?

  And Ask Uncle Jake. So you can check that one out. There's also the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, which tells you how to get after it. Very clearly. And if you want to get it on audio, the only way you can get it on the audio is as an MP3 album. Or you can buy individual tracks if you want them. iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, etc.

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, also Extreme Ownership.

• 2:32:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:32:56Speaker 01

  The, you don't sell the original, right? Extreme Ownership?

• 2:33:00Jocko Willink?

  No, this is the second version now.

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like an enhanced version.

• 2:33:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's clips, there's sections from the, from this podcast in the new Extreme Ownership.

• 2:33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:10Jocko Willink?

  That's the, when they come out, when they re-release a book, they want to add a little spice to it.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 2:33:17Jocko Willink?

  So the spice is the podcast, actually.

• 2:33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:19Jocko Willink?

  Which is pretty cool.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  So Extreme Ownership book sprinkled with podcast.

• 2:33:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  Spice, spicy podcast stuff. Yeah. Um, good one. Simple but not easy, that one. But if you can assimilate it legitimately, life-changing.

• 2:33:33Jocko Willink?

  What's cool, what's cool to me, yeah, you know, you just threw out life-changing. You just threw it out there like no big deal.

• 2:33:39Speaker 01

  I'm not the only one.

• 2:33:40Jocko Willink?

  No, that's what I'm saying. What's cool, what's cool is when people are pretty stoked about the impact that it's had on their personal life and on their business and on their family. And I hear people talking about that and they, they come and talk to me about it and send me emails and everything else. It's awesome. So that's the book Extreme Ownership. Wrote it with my brother Leif Babin. And Leif and I just wrote another book. I kind of referenced it a couple of times today. It's called The Dichotomy of Leadership. And Leif and I literally, I keep saying we just get done writing it. Have you heard me say that on this podcast before?

• 2:34:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, I have. You know why? Because every time you edit, you gotta edit again. So every time you think you're done, you're not done. And so we just turned in another series of edits. And the edits are, it's not like we're going through these massive changes, but you just, you just, somebody changes something in a sentence and then it throws off this other thing. And so it's just a pain. Um, the way, that's, that's what we're doing.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  Do you have the philosophy like, um, how they, I don't know, I forget who said it, but it's like editing is done when you can take away no more.

• 2:34:43Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  And then there's the other one. That's the opposite.

• 2:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Yes, editing is done when you can't, you can't, every word matters.

• 2:34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  And you know, Leif and I, Leif, Leif basically, like I do like a thousand words a day and I edit the same way. Well, I edit, I, you can edit faster, so I'll edit like one chapter at a time. But, but then I'll do that one per day. Leif's the opposite. He just goes boom. He just goes and he'll call me at like midnight, bro.

• 2:35:11Speaker 01

  I'm breathing all hard.

• 2:35:12Jocko Willink?

  I've been editing for eighteen hours. I'm making up the chapter nine. I'm like, that's awesome, man. But yes, and then we edit each other. And so we're, it takes a while. So we just finished another series of edits. And both of us are stoked. Leif sent me a text the other day. He's like, bro, this book is awesome.

• 2:35:30Speaker 01

  It is, actually.

• 2:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right, because you have a little taste of it now.

• 2:35:34Speaker 01

  A little inside, yeah.

• 2:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so it is. So I think it's really gonna help people out. And again, you can preorder that thing right now so that the publisher prints enough so that people can actually have them. Because the publishers don't ever get it.

• 2:35:45Speaker 01

  And it does, man, it does help. And I don't want to give it away, any kind of spoiler, nothing like that. But it does, it makes like complete sense, especially after extreme ownership. Where, you know, extreme ownership, like, and it kind of has this tone of extremeness, which is, it's all true and accurate. But I can see how like someone might not get that little element of like, hey, it's extreme, but it's more of like this approach to like this whole thing. And that whole thing is this balance, you know, like not to.

• 2:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Dichotomy of leadership. I actually wrote in the book, Dichotomy Leadership, one of the, one of the problems with extreme ownership is the title Extreme Ownership. Because people think it gotta be extreme. It's like, no, actually, you need to, you need to not be extreme. Most of the time, as a leader, you need to be balanced. Now, do you need to be extreme in your attitude towards ownership? Yes, you absolutely do.

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:33Jocko Willink?

  But do you need to be extreme in your attitude of being aggressive? No, because if you get too aggressive, you're gonna cause other problems.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like extreme meaning like, don't deviate from thinking like this kind of thing, not like, when I go in, I'm just owning everything, no exceptions. What you say doesn't matter. This is mine, kind of, kind of extremes, not that. And then really the extremeness of the balance. It's almost like a contradictory thing, but it's, all the parts that like, I'm using it for a little something that I have to, that I'm, I don't have to do it. But, you know, anyway, I'm reading some of it.

• 2:37:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  And it's like, man, it makes it really clear. It's really good.

• 2:37:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, that's, that's what Leif texted me the other day. I'm like, yeah, because obviously we've been reading it a bunch. And I think it's gonna really help people out. Really help people out.

• 2:37:20Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 2:37:21Jocko Willink?

  So that'll be good. And you know, actually on top of the dichotomy of leadership, speaking of leadership, if you need leadership training onsite for you or your team, you can check out Echelon Front. That's my leadership consulting company with Leif, with JP, with Dave. We've got some other people coming on board right now, which is awesome, awesome guys. And what we do is we solve problems through leadership. That's what we do at Echelon Front, echelonfront.com. Come and get some.

• 2:37:53Speaker 01

  Effectively, I feel like I'm kinda like this ongoing client of Echelon Front, of you know, of your consulting, you know, just because I'm always kinda around.

• 2:38:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  You know, so I was like, it's interesting how just by, what do you call it? Not osmosis.

• 2:38:07Jocko Willink?

  No, it is osmosis.

• 2:38:08Speaker 01

  Osmosis.

• 2:38:09Jocko Willink?

  By being there, it kinda sifts into your brain.

• 2:38:11Speaker 01

  Boom. Yeah, it's good. Also, the muster, that's a big part. I'm essentially an attendee at the muster.

• 2:38:21Jocko Willink?

  With a camera.

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  With a camera, which is even more so.

• 2:38:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:24Speaker 01

  Because I get to re-watch it, certain parts.

• 2:38:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. And you get to get up, like, move around, get close.

• 2:38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Outstanding time, by the way. And so, yeah, there's a net, there's another one. The, the one, the last one we went to sold out. The one before that one sold out.

• 2:38:40Jocko Willink?

  DC was pretty awesome.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:41Jocko Willink?

  I mean.

• 2:38:42Speaker 01

  And it was a base one.

• 2:38:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, DC was awesome. It was just awesome being in DC and the muster was a good time and people learned a ton, so.

• 2:38:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, sold out again. All of them sold out.

• 2:38:55Jocko Willink?

  Sold out.

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, it's reasonable, as you always say, to believe that this next one's gonna sell out.

• 2:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the next one's gonna sell out.

• 2:39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're definitely gonna sell out. It's, uh, San Francisco, muster 006, October 17th and 18th. It's absolutely gonna sell out. So if you wanna come, register. The other thing that happens is you book hotel rooms, you know, because those things get bought up too. So, yeah, it's, it's a leadership seminar. We talk about leadership and it's not just talking about leadership. We actually give you the pragmatic tools that you need to take home and become a better leader in your business, in your life.

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  I was watching this, I was watching TV the other day. Because my kids were watching TV. Wasn't my choice, by the way. But nonetheless, I'm watching, I'm watching TV and I see a little, you know, the commercial, it's almost, it's a local like commercial, you know how the commercial like, like one commercial kinda starts and then it goes to the local commercial, you know, that situation?

• 2:39:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:39:56Speaker 01

  Anyway, that happens. So anyways, for this seminar, you know, for, I don't, I forget, maybe real estate or whatever, you know, cool, cool info, whatever. And you know how in the video they show, uh, you know, like clips from the actual seminar that they held last time or something like that? Bro, and then you can't help but compare it to like the muster situation and it's like, man, night and day, you know? And that one is cool, looks like people getting good information, but bro, it's just way different, man.

• 2:40:22Jocko Willink?

  No, it's, um, that's why, that's why they're all selling out. And that's why people are, people are coming back, so.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  And there's that added element where they kinda get to hang with you guys.

• 2:40:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. There's no green room. There's no behind the stage. Actually, the last one, there was literally no backstage. Like, there was no place you, we were just out front, we were out front the whole time, the whole team.

• 2:40:42Speaker 01

  Not that you would even need it, cause you kinda, you don't go back there. You can't, kinda can't.

• 2:40:46Jocko Willink?

  No green room.

• 2:40:47Speaker 01

  Even when you say there's a break, there's already a line.

• 2:40:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:40:49Speaker 01

  Kind of formula, okay, cause you know, you get questions.

• 2:40:51Jocko Willink?

  And people wanna ask questions in between and sign books and hang out and take pictures and all that stuff. That's what we do, the whole time.

• 2:40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's not to mention, we're all in the same hotel.

• 2:40:59Jocko Willink?

  Leif, Leif lost nine pounds during the muster.

• 2:41:03Speaker 01

  Me too, seven.

• 2:41:04Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:05Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's what we're doing. We're just, and there's no time to eat, like, like, we, we literally don't eat. You don't eat, cause you, I mean, we don't. You can eat, as a, as a attendee, you can eat, but like, Leif, me, the boys, we don't have time to eat. We're working. And so, yeah, come to muster. Also, uh, for current military, law enforcement, border patrol, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, we got the roll call, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. It's, uh, like a really focused one-day leadership training seminar aimed at people that put on a uniform and deal with dynamic situations. And that's also available to register at extremeownership.com. And until we see you live

• 2:41:46Jocko Willink?

  and in person, either at the muster in San Francisco, or the roll call in Texas, or the immersion camp up in Maine. If you wanna, if you wanna hang out with us virtually. We are hanging out, actually, on the interwebs. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to all the servicemen and women out there in the world, thank you for protecting our nation. And to the police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, Border Patrol, thanks for keeping us safe here at home. And to the families of all those that serve,

• 2:42:25Jocko Willink?

  thank you for supporting those heroes that support us. And to everyone else that is listening, remember, as we learned today, laziness is the shame of us all. Laziness makes us prefer the easy path, the weak path, instead of glory. Do not allow that. Instead, take the hard path. Take the disciplined path. Take the war path, the path of getting after it.

• 2:43:10Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.