85: Rationalizing Evil Deeds. Burden of Choice. Following Immoral Orders. "Ordinary Men"

"Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland", by Christopher R. Browning. http://amzn.to/2uw2ywx 0:00:00 - Opening 0:06:39 - Ordinary Men", Christopher R. Browning http://amzn.to/2eNapAa 0:24:52 - Executioners come in many forms. 0:34:55 - Cowards and Rationalization. 0:53:00 - The burden of choice. 1:22:34 - Why/How can men behave this way? 1:54:12 - Take-Aways 2:18:51 - Support, Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj Origin Jiu Jitsu Immersion Camp. Origin Brand http://www.originmaine.com. 2:41:25 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 85 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  I was given a very old man who could not or would not keep up with his countrymen because he repeatedly fell and then simply lay there.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  I regularly had to lift him up and drag him forward. Thus, I only reached the execution site when my comrades had already shot their Jews.

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  At the sight of his countrymen who had been shot, my Jew threw himself on the ground and remained lying there.

• 0:46Jocko Willink?

  I then cocked my carbine and shot him through the back of the head.

• 0:51Jocko Willink?

  Because I was already very upset from the cruel treatment of the Jews during the clearing of the town and was completely in turmoil, I shot too high.

• 1:03Jocko Willink?

  The entire back of the skull of my Jew was torn off and the brain exposed.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  Parts of the skull flew into Sergeant Steinmetz's face.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  This was grounds for me, after returning to the truck, to go to the first sergeant and ask for my release.

• 1:27Jocko Willink?

  I had become so sick that I simply couldn't anymore.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  I was then relieved by the first sergeant.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  Systematic murder.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're talking about. This is the Nazis' final solution.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  Which was not always carried out in the relatively detached method often thought of when we think of the Holocaust.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  Because when we think of the Holocaust, a lot of times, we think of this big mechanism. We think of trains. We think of gas chambers. We think of process. We think of a massive bureaucratic machine that is doing the killing.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  And maybe that in some way is easier for us to understand, and that's why we focus on that piece. It's easier for us to accept that.

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  But it wasn't all like that.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  Many lives were taken, many murders committed by hand.

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  At close range.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  Point blank.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  So what kind of monsters

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  committed those atrocities, those personal atrocities, up close and personal murders that covered the murderers in the blood of their victims?

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  What kind of men were those?

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  And how did they end up there?

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  And what can we do?

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  To prevent it from occurring again?

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  Now, to answer, or at least try and come to some understanding,

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  we're going to explore a book that is called Ordinary Men.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. Written by Christopher R. Browning. And that first excerpt that I read is from that book. And it's from a soldier in the police battalion named August Zorn. And that's actually a pseudonym. The names were changed for some of the Nazis in the book.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  But the book is incredibly detailed in what happened and where these men were from.

• 5:09Jocko Willink?

  What unfolded? And obviously, this is gonna be a graphic episode.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I actually wish I didn't have to talk about this.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  I do. I really do. I wish I could talk about nicer things.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  I wish I could talk about pleasant things and we could just forget about all this horror.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  But I, there's the rub, because even though it would be easier and more pleasant to talk about something nice, the problem is that if we forget about these things, then we forget about these things.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  And if we forget, we don't learn.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  And if we don't learn about what humans can do, and why they do what they do, then we can repeat our mistakes, and that is awful.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  we go because we have to go.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  And we go back to the book.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  "Just as the sky was beginning to lighten, the convoy halted outside Yosefow.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  It was a typical Polish village of modest white houses with thatched straw roofs. Among its inhabitants were 1,800 Jews.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  The village was totally quiet. The men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 climbed down from their trucks and assembled in a half-circle around their commander, Major Wilhelm Trapp, a 53-year-old career policeman affectionately known by his men as Papa Trapp.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  The time had come for Trapp to address the men and inform them of the assignment the battalion had received.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  Pale and nervous, with choking voice and tears in his eyes,

• 7:43Jocko Willink?

  Trapp visibly fought to control himself as he spoke.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  The battalion, he said plaintively, had to perform a frightfully unpleasant task.

• 7:56Jocko Willink?

  This assignment was not to his liking. Indeed, it was highly regrettable, but the orders came from the highest authorities.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  If it would make the task any easier, the men should remember that in Germany, the bombs were falling on women and children."

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  Then he turned to the matter at hand. The Jews had instigated the American boycott that had damaged Germany. One policeman remembered Trapp saying.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  There were Jews in the village of Yosefo who were involved with the partisans, he explained according to two others. The battalion had now been ordered to round up these Jews.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  The male Jews of working age were to be separated and taken to a work camp. The remaining Jews, the women, children, and elderly, were to be shot on the spot by the battalion.

• 8:53Jocko Willink?

  Having explained what awaited his men, Trapp made them an extraordinary offer. If any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task that lay before them, he could step out.

• 9:14Jocko Willink?

  Trapp paused, and after some moments, one man from Third Company, Otto Julius Schimke, stepped forward.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  Captain Hoffman, who had arrived in Yosefo directly from Zaccaro with Third Platoon of Third Company, and had not been part of the officers' meetings the day before, was furious that one of his men had been the first to break ranks. Hoffman began to berate Schimke, but Trapp cut him off. After he had taken Schimke under his protection, some ten or twelve other men stepped forward as well. They turned in their rifles and were told to await a further assignment from the major.

• 10:05Jocko Willink?

  So, and we'll go into this, but you've got a

• 10:11Jocko Willink?

  a battalion, three companies, there's probably 500 men. And we have, they get this savage order that they're gonna go and shoot

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  the women, children and elderly on the spot in this village with pretty white houses. And the commander, this guy Trapp, who obviously isn't comfortable with it. He's got tears in his eyes when he's given this order.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  He says, hey, if anybody doesn't want to participate, you can step forward now. And like 10 or 12 people out of 500 stepped forward.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  The rest of them hold the line in this case. Going back to the book, Trapp then summoned the company commanders and gave them their respective assignments. The orders were relayed by the platoon commanders. Two platoons of third company were to surround the village. The men were explicitly ordered to shoot anyone trying to escape. The remaining men were to round up the Jews and take them to the marketplace. Those too sick or frail to walk to the marketplace, as well as infants, and anyone offering resistance or attempting to hide were to be shot on the spot.

• 11:28Jocko Willink?

  Thereafter, a few men of the first company were escorted, were to escort the work Jews who had been selected at the marketplace, while the rest of first company was to proceed to the forest to form firing squads.

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  The Jews were to be loaded onto battalion trucks by second company and third platoon of third company and shuttled from the marketplace to the forest. And that's for executions.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  After making the assignments, Trapp spent most of the day in town, either in a schoolroom converted into his headquarters, at the homes of the Polish mayor, and at the local priest, at the marketplace, or on the road to the forest. But he did not go to the forest itself, or witness the executions. His absence there was conspicuous, as one policeman bitterly commented, "Major Trapp was never there." Instead, he remained in Yosefov because he allegedly could not bear the sight.

• 12:32Jocko Willink?

  "We men were upset about that, and said we couldn't bear it either."

• 12:38Jocko Willink?

  Indeed, Trapp's distress was a secret to no one. At the marketplace, one policeman remembered hearing Trapp say, "Oh, God, why did I have to be given these orders?" as he put his hand on his heart.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  Another policeman witnessed him at the schoolhouse, "Today I can see exactly before my eyes, Major Trapp in the room pacing back and forth with his hands behind his back. He made a downcast impression and spoke to me. He said something like, 'Man, such jobs don't suit me, but orders are orders.'"

• 13:12Jocko Willink?

  Another man remembered vividly how Trapp, finally alone in our room, sat on a stool and wept bitterly. The tears really flowed.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  Can you hear that? That idea that orders are orders? Doesn't stand, doesn't work.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, as the roundup neared completion, the men of First Company were withdrawn from the search and given a quick lesson in the gruesome task that awaited them. They were instructed by the battalion doctor and the company's first sergeant.

• 13:52Jocko Willink?

  And this is a quote from one of the men, "I believe that at this point, all the officers of the battalion were present, especially our battalion physician, Dr. Schoenfelder. He now had to explain to us precisely how we had to shoot in order to induce the immediate death of the victim.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  I remember exactly that for this demonstration, he drew or outlined the contour of a human body, at least from the shoulders upward, and then indicated precisely the point on which the fixed bayonet was to be placed as an aiming guide."

• 14:26Jocko Willink?

  So we have the battalion doctor,

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  who's instructing some of the men, and you're gonna see that it wasn't all of them, to take the bayonet, which is on their rifle, put it on the back of the neck as an aiming guide to know where, exactly where to shoot.

• 14:51Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, First Sergeant Cammer had taken the initial contingent of shooters in First Company to a forest several kilometers from Yosefov.

• 15:01Jocko Willink?

  The trucks halted on a dirt road that ran along the edge at a point where a pathway led into the woods. The men climbed down from their trucks and waited.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  When the first truckload of thirty-five to forty Jews arrived, an equal number of policemen came forward and, face to face, were paired off with their victims.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  Led by Cammer, the policemen and Jews marched down the forest path.

• 15:30Jocko Willink?

  They turned off into the woods at a point indicated by Captain Wolhoff, who busied himself throughout the day selecting the execution sites.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  Cammer then ordered the Jews to lie down in a row.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  The policemen stepped up behind them, placed their bayonets on the backbone above the shoulder blade as instructed earlier, and on Cammer's command, fired in unison.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  In the meantime, more policemen of First Company had arrived at the edge of the forest to fill out a second firing squad. As the first firing squad marched out of the woods to the unloading point, the second group took their victims along the same path into the woods. Wolhoff chose a site a few yards farther on so the next batch of victims would not see the corpses from the earlier execution.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  These Jews were again forced to lie face down in a row, and the shooting procedure was repeated.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  Thereafter, the pendulum traffic of the two firing squads in and out of the woods continued throughout the day. Except for a midday break, the shooting proceeded without interruption until nightfall. At some point in the afternoon, someone organized a supply of alcohol for the shooters. By the end of day, of nearly continuous shooting, the medic completely lost track of how many Jews they had each killed. In the words of one policeman, "It was, in any case, a great number."

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  So, clearly, this is not what we think of when we think of the Holocaust. The men being paired off with their victims to take out in the woods and shot in the back of the head. And going through this procedure the entire day. Back to the book. In contrast to First Company, the men of Second Company received no instruction on how to carry out the shooting. Initially, bayonets were not fixed as an aiming guide, and as Hergert noted, there was a considerable number of missed shots that led to the unnecessary wounding of the victims.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  One of the policemen in Hergert's unit likewise noted the difficulty the men had in aiming properly. "At first, we shot freehand. When one aimed too high, the entire skull exploded. As a consequence, brains and bones flew everywhere. Thus, we were instructed to place the bayonet point on the neck." According to Hergert, however, using fixed bayonets as an aiming guide was no solution. Through the point-blank shot, though the point-blank shot that was thus required, the bullet struck the head of the victim at such a trajectory that often the entire skull, or at least the entire rear skull cap, was torn off, and blood, bone splinters, and brains sprayed

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  everywhere and besmirched the shooters.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  Hergert was so emphatic that no one in first platoon was given the option of withdrawing beforehand. But once the executions began and men approached either him or Shear because they could not shoot women and children, they were given other duties. This was confirmed by one of his men. During the execution, word spread that anyone who could not take it any longer could report. He then went on to note, "I myself took part in some ten shootings in which I had to shoot men and women.

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  I simply could not shoot at people anymore, which became apparent to my sergeant, Hergert, because at the end, I repeatedly shot past. For this reason, he relieved me.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  Other comrades were also relieved sooner or later because they simply could no longer continue."

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, there's mixed emotions about this whole thing from the top of the chain of command right down to the frontline shooters that are only able to do this so many times. Some of them opt out of it initially.

• 20:13Jocko Willink?

  But let's remember that it's still taking place. And no one's stopping it. Some people are excusing themselves from it. But there's no one saying, "Hey, what the hell are we doing right now?"

• 20:30Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "Some of the men who hurried at their task shot far more Jews than others who delayed as much as they could. After two rounds, one policeman simply slipped off and stayed among the trucks at the edge of the forest. Another managed to avoid taking his turn with the shooters altogether." And here's a quote from him, "It was in no way the case that those who did not want to or could not carry out the shooting of human beings with their own hands could not keep themselves out of the task." No strict control was being carried out here. I therefore remained by the arriving trucks and kept myself busy at the arrival point. In any case, I gave my activity such an appearance.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  It could not be avoided that one or another of my comrades noticed that I was not going to the executions to fire away at the victims.

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  They showered me with remarks such as shithead and weakling to express their disgust. But I suffered no consequences for my actions.

• 21:34Jocko Willink?

  I must mention here that I was not the only one who kept himself out of participating in the executions.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  So, guys, like I said, have figured out that they can not participate if they don't want to. And they're getting called cowards and weaklings by the guys that are actually cowards and weaklings that are going out and executing people.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, as with First Company, alcohol was made available to the policemen under Drucker and Steinmetz, who stayed in the forest and continued shooting.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  As darkness approached at the end of a long summer day and the murderous task was still not finished, the shooting became even less organized and more hectic.

• 22:26Jocko Willink?

  The forest was so full of dead bodies that it was difficult to find places to make the Jews lie down.

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  So, they complete this massacre and they head back to their barracks. And here we go, back to the book. When the men arrived back at the barracks, they were depressed, angered, embittered, and shaken. They ate little, but drank heavily. Generous quantities of alcohol were provided, and many of the policemen got quite drunk. Major Trapp made the rounds, trying to console and reassure them, and again placing the responsibility on higher authorities.

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  Placing responsibility on higher authorities. You're not allowed to do that.

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  But neither the drink nor traps consolation could wash away the sense of shame and horror that pervaded the barracks.

• 23:40Jocko Willink?

  So

• 23:43Jocko Willink?

  that was the first police action that they did. This took place in Poland. It was the first time that the group had deployed to Poland. And to give you, you know, when you hear what they did. Yeah, you hear some people that had a hard time with it. But still, like I said, that was a small percentage. That was like 10%, maybe 15% of people that said, no, I'm not going to do it. That hid or made themselves busy with other things. Most of the guys just went ahead and did what they were told to do.

• 24:16Jocko Willink?

  And you think to yourself, okay, well, who were these guys? Were they hardened combat veterans from the front line? Were they, were they young, sort of brainwashed Nazi youth that were

• 24:32Jocko Willink?

  that that's what they believed in and they just, their minds just saw that as the reality that they had to go through with? And this is the strange thing about this book is that that's not what it is.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  That's not who these guys were. And now I'll go to the book to talk about who they actually were. For the most part, Reserve Police Battalion 101 was now composed of men without any experience of German occupation methods in Eastern Europe, or for that matter, with the exception of the very oldest who were World War I veterans, any kind of military service. Most of these guys aren't even from the military.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  The battalion consisted of 11 officers, five administrative officials in charge of financial matters relating to pay and provisioning, lodging, etc., and 486 non-commissioned officers and men. The battalion was divided into three companies, each of approximately 140 men when at full strength. Two companies were commanded by police captains and the third by a senior reserve lieutenant in the battalion. Each company was divided into three platoons, two of them commanded by reserve lieutenants, and the third by a platoon senior sergeant. So this is kind of a normal military makeup.

• 25:45Jocko Willink?

  The battalion was commanded by 53 year old Major Wilhelm Trapp. World War I veteran and recipient of the Iron Cross First Class.

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  Now, we know World War I obviously was a brutal war and he's a survivor of that. Awarded the Iron Cross First Class, fought for Germany and lost. What did he do after the war? Back to the book. After the war, he became a career policeman and rose through the ranks. He'd recently been promoted from Captain of Second Company and this was his first battalion command. Though Trapp had joined the Nazi Party in December of 1932 and thus technically qualified as an old party fighter or altercomfer. He had never been taken into the SS or even given an equivalent SS rank.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  In spite of the fact that Himmler and Heidrick consciously tried to merge and intertwine the state and party components of their SS police empire, Trapp was clearly not considered SS material. So, and, and you're going to see this, these guys, I mean, there's a war going on. So why are these guys in a police battalion as opposed to being on the front lines fighting the war? The reason is because they're not quite

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  the right material to go out and fight. And by the way, this is, you know, we're going to get to a point soon in the war where there's some 14 year old Hitler youth going out to fight. But these guys aren't, aren't being selected. Back to the book. He was soon to come into conflict with his two captains, both young SS men, who even in their testimony more than 20 years later, made no attempt to conceal their contempt for their commander as weak, unmilitary and unduly interfering in the duties of his officers. So he's got a couple of police captains that were a little bit more hardcore. Let me tell you about them.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  Wolfgang Hoffman, he was born in 1914, 16 years old. He was in Hitler youth in 1932. At 18, he was in the SS, graduated from gymnasium, which is a college preparatory high school in 1934, joined the police force in 1936, entered the Nazi party in 1937. Same year he completed police training, was commissioned as a lieutenant, and now he's in the reserves in 1942, Reserve Police Battalion 101. So he'd come up through the ranks, you

• 28:20Jocko Willink?

  know, as a Nazi. But still, even him, I mean, his formative years, he's born in 1914. So, you know, it's not like it's all he knew. You know, he went from 1914 till what, 1933, 1930? So he was 16 years old. He had been formed, you know, lived as a normal German before the Nazi party was around. We're not talking a brainwashed, complete Nazi youth. Same thing with the other guy born in 1913, this is Julius Wohlhoff.

• 28:53Jocko Willink?

  Also graduated from gymnasium, joined the Nazi party in 1933, 1936 became SS. So these guys are more, you know, they're more engaged in the whole Nazi party and obviously toeing the line along that. Now, so that's the two police captains that are in charge of a couple of the companies inside the battalion. Now, let's talk a little bit about the men. The men aged generally from 33 to 48 years old. Five were party members, none of them belonged to the SS. Of the, back to the book of the 32 non-commissioned officers

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  on whom we have information, 22 were party members and seven were in the SS. They ranged in age from 27 to 40 years old. Their average age was 33 and a half. They were not reservists, but rather pre-war recruits to the police.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  Of the rank and file, so now we're just talking about the troops, the 400 plus troops. Of the rank and file, the vast majority were from the Hamburg area. 63% were working class background, but few were skilled laborers. The majority of them held typical Hamburg working class jobs. Dock workers and truck drivers were most numerous, but there are also many warehouse and construction workers, machine operators, seamen and waiters. About 35% were lower middle class, virtually all of them white collar workers. Three quarters of them were in sales of some sort. The other one quarter formed various office jobs in both government and private sector. The number of independent artisans and small businesses businessmen were very small.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  Only a handful, 2% were middle class professionals and very modest ones at that, such as druggists and teachers. The average age of the men was 39. Over half were between 37 and 42. A group considered too old for the army, but most heavily conscripted for reserve police duty after September 1939. So these guys, so the men are there. They're 30, 40 years old, 35, 40 years old. These guys are fully developed, right? They're not, they're not.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Impressionable.

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're not impressionable guys that are just raised inside the Nazi culture. Because I mean, let's face it, if you're raised in any cultish religion scenario, there's a really good chance that that's what you're going to believe in and you don't understand any other way of thinking. So you can, I don't know if you can be excused, but it's understandable how you end up that way.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the men of reserve police battalion were from the lower orders of German society. They had experienced neither social nor geographic mobility. By virtue of their age, and here's what we're just talking about. By virtue of their age, of course, all went through their formative period in the pre-Nazi era. These were men who had known political standards and moral norms other than those of the Nazis. Most came from Hamburg, by reputation, one of the least Nazified cities in Germany. And the majority came from a social class that had been anti-Nazi in its political culture. These men would not seem to have been a very promising group from which to recruit

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  mass murderers on the half, on behalf of Nazi vision of a racial utopia free of Jews. And I think the title of this book is Ordinary Men, and that's why, because that's what we're talking about here, Ordinary Men. I mean, that's, that's, that's about a clear cross-section of society than you could come up with. I mean, you come up with the same cross-section of society in America. A bunch of guys working as construction workers, waiters, truck drivers, dock workers. I mean, that's what, that's what people do. Hmm. Oh, what age are they? They're 35, 40 years old. Okay. Is that the group that you think is gonna be able, you're gonna be able to take out

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  and get them to murder thousands and thousands of people face to face? Okay. Now, there's a section here, it's reflections on the massacre itself, and it's talking about this first, like I said, this first thing that took place in Yosefov. It was, left their first big action as a group. So here we go back to the book. At Yosefov, a mere dozen men out of nearly 500 responded instinctively to Major Trapp's offer to step forward and excuse themselves from the impending mass murder. Why was the number of men from the beginning declared themselves, who from the beginning

• 33:45Jocko Willink?

  declared themselves unwilling to shoot, so small? And he kind of offers an explanation here. It's like the suddenness of it. Mm-hmm. And, and if people are kind of surprised, and, and I, I can make sense of that, right? Yeah. Like, if, if I gave you time to think, if I was like, hey, Echo, we gotta go do this thing right now, you'd probably be like, okay, cool, let's go do it. Right. But if I said, hey, Echo, then we're gonna go do something.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Tomorrow.

• 34:08Jocko Willink?

  Tomorrow. You know, I'll pick you up at ten thirty. Let me know. Well, now you have time to contemplate.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  So he surprised him with it. Uh, there's also, obviously, there was peer pressure, right? To conform. And, you know, that that's gonna play a role, and we'll talk about that more later. Going back to book, back to the book. Nonetheless, the act of stepping out that morning in Yosefov meant leaving one's comrades and admitting that one was too weak or cowardly. Who would have dared one policeman declared emphatically to lose face before the assembled troops? If the questions posed to me why I shot with the others in the first place, said another who subsequently asked to be excused after several rounds of killing, I must answer that no one wants to be thought a coward.

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  It was one thing to refuse at the beginning, he added, and quite another to try and shoot, but not be able to continue.

• 35:09Jocko Willink?

  Another policeman, more aware of what truly required courage, said quite simply, I was cowardly. So that person gets it.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, these people are, the shooters are saying, hey, I don't want to be a coward, so I wanted to go shoot.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  When actually, to stand up and say, no, that's what would have taken real moral courage at this point. And, and obviously, these guys knew what they were doing was wrong.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  They knew it. That's why they're, some of them weren't able to continue.

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  Now, speaking of cowardly, here's a little section that I thought should be pointed out, and we were talking about this before the podcast, how people rationalize things.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, listen to this rationalization. Perhaps the most astounding rationalization of all was that of a thirty-five-year-old metal worker from Bremerhaven. Quote, "I made the effort, and it was possible for me to shoot only children.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  It so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand. My neighbor then shot the mother, and I shot the child that belonged to her, because I reasoned with myself that after all, without its mother, the child could not live any longer.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release the children unable to live without their mothers."

• 36:37Jocko Willink?

  And actually, he goes in here and talks about the German word for release also means to like redeem or save. So this guy's really twisted things up in his head.

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  The dangers of rationalization right there. Good God.

• 36:58Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, with few exceptions, the whole question of antisemitism is marked by silence. So this is interesting.

• 37:06Jocko Willink?

  This is very interesting. He, the, as they, and, and I should have pointed this out earlier, but this book is based on all these different interviews and witness accounts, mostly of the policemen themselves. Now, and again, I should have pointed this out in the beginning. Of course, people are making witness statements and there's all kinds of problems with those, right? They don't remember things correctly. They're trying to protect themselves. They're trying to protect their friends. They're trying to indict certain people and make them look like the bad guy. They might be trying to make themselves look good. So there's all these

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  kind of angles that you have to listen to, that you have to understand this with.

• 37:49Jocko Willink?

  But this is interesting. As they interview these guys. Back to the book, with few exceptions, the whole question of antisemitism is marked by silence. What is clear is that the men's concern for their standing in the eyes of their comrades was not matched by any sense of human ties with their victims. The Jews stood outside their circle of human obligation and responsibility. Such a polarization between us and them, between one's comrades and the enemy is of course standard in war. And it is indeed, but I, I guess what surprised me is these guys weren't going in there with thinking themselves, okay, these are the Jews that are doing us wrong and we're going to get our chance. They were just kind of saying, well, they're not us. Right.

• 38:32Jocko Willink?

  So we'll do what we have to do. Yeah.

• 38:40Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, even 20 or 25 years later, those who did quit shooting along the way overwhelmingly cited sheer physical revulsion against what they were doing as the prime motive, but to not express any ethical or political principles behind this revulsion. So that's interesting. These guys were stopping because it made them feel sick. And they weren't saying, "Look, I'm actually..." What I've been saying is like, "Hey, these guys knew it was wrong." Well, they didn't think of it as wrong, or at least this is explaining that they weren't thinking, "Oh, this is so wrong." What they were thinking was, "I'm gonna be sick."

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  Now, any rational person can figure out that if something makes you sick to do, then you've got some deep-seated knowledge that what you're doing is wrong.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it seems like that that was like the moral part of it, right or wrong, so that wasn't the primary. The primary was just, "I can't take the blood and guts, man."

• 39:42Jocko Willink?

  I can't take the blood and guts, yeah. You're exactly right. Now, like I said, there's a connection, and I don't think he makes it in the book, but in my mind, there's a connection. If you're doing something that makes you feel sick,

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  It's not just the making you feel sick that should be bothering you. What should be bothering you is the fact that you're doing something that makes you feel sick. There's a reason why it makes you feel sick. There's a reason why human beings feel sick when they're laying down children and shooting in the back of the head. There's a reason for that. That's a...

• 40:14Jocko Willink?

  It's like a survival instinct, right? For your species to carry on.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Jocko Willink?

  You have to make the other members of your species survive.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially if, just like I said, there wasn't like some enemy kind of feeling towards these people, like, "Oh, we're defending ourselves against this enemy," you know, it wasn't that, it was just that... It was essentially the minimum requirement to go against somebody. They're not us.

• 40:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and he's gonna go into this a little bit, but yeah, you're right. It's not, it's not like there's, he says, hey, there's, there's women and children being bombed back in Germany right now, but there's no direct correlation. They're not saying, hey, look, these Jews are fighting us. They're gonna, they're gonna take over. They've got ground in, you know, on our borders. No, they're not saying that. They're actually in total control of, of the Jews at this point, or they're not total control, but they're getting really close, getting really close.

• 41:11Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the resentment and bitterness in the battalion over what they had been asked to do and Yosef Oph was shared by virtually everyone, even those who had shot the entire day. The exclamation of one policeman to First Sergeant Cameron of the first company that I'd go crazy if I had to do that again expressed the sentiments of many.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  But few went beyond complaining to extricate themselves from such a possibility. So I said, hey, I never have to do that again. But very few of them said, actually made a stand. The most dramatic, back to the book, the most dramatic response again was that of Lieutenant Buckman, who asked Trapp to have him transferred back to Hamburg and declared that short of a direct personal order from Trapp, he would not take part in Jewish actions. In the end, he wrote to Hamburg explicitly requesting a recall because he was not suited to certain tasks alien to the police that were being carried out by his unit in Poland. Buckman had waited, had to wait until November, but his efforts to be transferred were ultimately successful.

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  So there's a guy, that, that's one guy that they're citing that actually said, dude, I'm not gonna do this.

• 42:25Jocko Willink?

  Now, it was bad enough and did have a bad enough effect on the men and they complained about it enough that there was some changes. So here we go back to the book. In subsequent actions, two vital changes were introduced henceforth with some notable exceptions adhered to. First, most of the future operations of the Reserve Police Battalion 101 involved ghetto clearing and deportation, not outright massacre on the spot.

• 42:53Jocko Willink?

  The policemen were thus relieved of the immediate horror of the killing process, which for deportees from the northern Lubin district was carried out in the extermination camp at Treblinka. So now, we're not gonna, you don't have to go shoot them. You just gotta gather them up and get them shipped off to the extermination camp. Second, while deportation was a horrifying procedure characterized by the terrible coercive violence needed to drive people onto the death trains, as well as the systematic killing of those who could not be marched to the trains, these actions were generally undertaken

• 43:34Jocko Willink?

  jointly by units of Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Tronikis. SS-trained auxiliaries from the Soviet territories recruited from the Russian POW camps and usually assigned to the very worst parts of the ghetto clearing and deportation. So imagine this group, you get a group of thugs that are from Russian POW camps and you say, "Oh yeah, we'll let you out of this POW camp and you can come work for us."

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  And they're trained by the SS. Not exactly a friendly crew of guys.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  In fact, that's like, I can't imagine a worse group of people to come and come after you.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the bulk of the killing was to be removed to the extermination camp and the worst of the on-the-spot dirty work was to be assigned to the Tronikis.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  This change would prove sufficient to allow the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 to become accustomed to their participation in the Final Solution. When the time came to kill again, the policemen did not go crazy. Instead, they became increasingly efficient and calloused executioners.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  So, couple of changes. It was obviously, it was a little too much for them. To actually do all the killing themselves, now they got some people to help them out and/or they are just gonna gather them up and ship them away and now they're only playing a little piece in the, in the, in the, in the machine.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:12Jocko Willink?

  Right? Just a little piece in the machine, so it's a lot easier to detach.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:17Jocko Willink?

  From what's actually happening. Back to the book, the Jews of Lomazie were to be the target of Reserve Battalion 101's first joint killing action with a unit from the Troniki.

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Second company was to provide the bulk of the manpower for the roundup. The primary function of the Troniki was, unit was to provide the shooters, thus alleviating the chief psychological burden the German policeman had experienced at Yosefov.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  And here the, the orders come out, they're going in, and now there's another term that comes up, it's, it's, it has to do with the Troniki, but it's Heewees, and it's short, I forget what the German words are, but Heewees is short for two big German words, one of them that means willing, and one of them that means helper. So they called these, these sort of people that had come to the German side and were not, they called them Heewees.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  And it's, like I said, it stands for willing helper. It's like, it's like using, you ever heard the term spec war? That stands for special warfare. This is the same thing with Ger- two German words that mean willing helper. So here we go back to the book, the NCOs were told that the Heewees from Troniki would do the shooting. So the policeman would for the most part be spared. Nonetheless, the roundup was to be conducted as had been done before, which is to say that infants and the old, sick, and frail who could not be easily taken to the assembly point were to be shot on the spot. So not out of all the killing. According to one squad leader, however, most children were once again brought to the assembly point.

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  As in Yosefov, the men encountered not only German Jews, but specifically Hamburg Jews during the clearing action. The Jews quickly filled the schoolyard and overflowed into the adjoining sports field. With some shooting, the roundup was finished in two short hours. So that's a, that's a real sort of one sentence. And if you can just try and imagine what the hell is going on there. These soldiers, these Russian soldiers, these German soldiers are coming in and rounding people up. They're using violence, shooting people to get all the Jews into the schoolyard.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  This is a nightmare scenario that they, that you know, he puts in a sentence here. Back to the book, the 1700 Jews of Lomazie were then forced to sit and wait. A group of 60 to 70 young men were selected out, given shovels and spades, loaded onto trucks and driven to the woods. Several of the young Jews jumped from the moving trucks and made good their escape. Another attacked a German corporal, the battalion boxing champion, champion, who promptly knocked his desperate assailant senseless. In the woods, the Jews were set to digging a mass grave.

• 48:33Jocko Willink?

  Back in Lomazie, the weight of the doomed Jews and their police guards stretched into hours. Suddenly, a contingent of 50 heewees from Troninki marched into town, led by a German SS officer. "I can still remember it exactly," one policeman testified, "that immediately after the arrival of these Tronikis took a break. After their arrival, the Tronikis took a break. I saw that in addition to food, they also took out bottles of vodka out of their packs and drank from them." The SS officer, Engnad, this is a guy that arrived on the scene now, began drinking heavily as well.

• 49:15Jocko Willink?

  The other NCOs smelled of alcohol, but unlike the two commanders, were not visibly drunk.

• 49:22Jocko Willink?

  So these guys are drinking vodka and they know what they're about to have to go do. Now, we're talking about this guy Lieutenant Nade. Lieutenant Nade was a Nazi by conviction and an anti Semite. He was also unpredictable, affable and approachable at times, brutal and vicious at others.

• 49:45Jocko Willink?

  And here's an eyewitness account from one of the soldiers. Back to the book, even before the shooting began, First Lieutenant Nade had personally picked out some 20 to 25 elderly Jews. They were exclusively men with full beards. Nade made the old men crawl on the ground in the area before the grave. Before he gave them the order to crawl, they had to undress. While the totally naked Jews crawled, First Lieutenant Nade screamed to those around, "Where are my non-commissioned officers? Don't you have any clubs yet?"

• 50:24Jocko Willink?

  The non-commissioned officers went to the edge of the forest, fetched themselves clubs and vigorously beat the Jews with them.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  They

• 50:43Jocko Willink?

  get the mass grave dug.

• 50:48Jocko Willink?

  And here we go, immediately, large numbers of Jews were driven into the grave and the heewees took their position on the walls that had been thrown up. From there, they shot the victims. As the shooting continued, the grave began to fill. The Jews who followed had to climb on and later even clamber over those shot earlier because the grave was filled with corpses almost to the edge.

• 51:22Jocko Willink?

  The NCOs decided that the execution should continue with two firing squads on opposite sides of the grave. The Jews were forced to lie down in rows alongside each side of the grave and were shot by the police standing on the opposite wall. Men from all three platoons were formed into squads of eight to ten and were relieved by others in a rotation after five or six shots. After about two hours, the heewees were roused from their stupor and resumed shooting in place of the German policeman. The shooting was finished around 7:00 PM and the work Jews who had been kept aside covered the grave. The work Jews were then shot as well.

• 52:07Jocko Willink?

  The thin covering of the overfill grave continued to move. So you got people that are not dead, that are now buried alive. And there was a part that I didn't cover. Basically, the heewees got too drunk to continue on and the police had to go and take their place for a while and then they kind of recovered. But this is the situation that we're talking about. Just a complete nightmare. Back to the book. One other factor sharply distinguished Lomazey from Yosefov and may well have been yet another

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  kind of psychological relief for the men, namely, and this is important from a psychological and from a leadership perspective. So we're going back through again. One other factor sharply distinguished Lomazey from Yosefov and may well have been yet another kind of psychological relief for the men, namely, this time, they did not bear the burden of choice that Trapp had offered them so starkly on the occasion of the first massacre. No chance to step out was given to those who did not feel up to the shooting. No one systematically excused those who were visibly too shaken to continue.

• 53:36Jocko Willink?

  Everyone assigned to the firing squads took his turn as ordered. Therefore, those who shot did not have to live with clear awareness that what they had done had been unavoidable. So that's a big difference.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:51Jocko Willink?

  The big difference.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  And from a leadership perspective, that's something that I've actually talked about this before.

• 54:01Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting. When we were in Ramadi, you know, we, tasking a bruiser, we kind of decided what we were gonna do. Right? You know, we weren't getting told, "Go do this." And so everything that we did, we did because we decided that it was, we could mitigate the risk and we could take, it was a good operation and we could, it was an area that we could do a good job in, so we had a lot of control over our fate. And that's, that's actually can be psychologically heavier because if something goes wrong, it's all on you as the leader.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  Or as the leadership team, or even as the guys that are on the front, the point man, the point man selecting his own, you know, going down to the frontline troops, the point man is selecting the route. If he hits an IED,

• 54:57Jocko Willink?

  sure, you know, it's the enemy's fault, but he's thinking to himself, "Why did I choose that route?"

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Jocko Willink?

  Now, the army, they did have some control, but they had more often than not, they'd be getting told, "Hey, you're gonna go on a patrol down this road, or hey, you're gonna go hit this building." So they were relieved oftentimes of that freedom of choice.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:19Jocko Willink?

  So the freedom of choice can be a little bit of a burden. And so what happened here was the freedom of choice was taken away. And that burden was therefore taken away. "Look, you're gonna get shot up and do this."

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  Guys, "Okay."

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you have like, if you have that choice, like back to the part where the 12 guys stepped out.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  And yeah, we can look at it as the guys who stepped out have more courage because they're not essentially...

• 55:47Speaker 01

  There's two things to be kinda scared of or have courage against, right? One is, okay, I'm not scared to kill these people. I'm scared to pull the trigger, you know? And then there's, I'm not scared to go against the norms.

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  You know, which is a bigger kinda thing.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, much harder.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that, and you have the choice, which one are you gonna do? You know, if you, if they give you the choice, okay, you can step out if you want, what are you gonna do? And then everyone's looking at you like, okay, are you gonna?

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  I wonder what the tipping point would have been. In other words.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Like if you chose to do it?

• 56:19Jocko Willink?

  No, if, if ten people, but then what if it was thirty? What if it was forty? You see that anytime in a crowd.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:26Jocko Willink?

  You seen that stupid, uh, video where there's like one guy, he's dancing by himself? And, well, it's, it's like some viral video.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Is it kinda old school?

• 56:34Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, but it's, it's a stupid viral video. You don't have to go and watch it yourself, but I'll explain what happens. There's a guy, they're like some kind of a concert, some kind of a outdoor concert. There's a guy dancing by himself. He's dancing by himself for a long time. And that's why I saw it, this company was talking about like group, or they use this as an example of group psychology. The guy's dancing by himself for a long time. And what they're actually saying is that the person that has the courage is the, is actually the second person that joins him. So anyways, the one person's dancing, he's dancing by himself for several minutes.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  Then another person joins him. Once the other person joins him, then all of a sudden, five people, and then it's twenty people, and then the next thing you know, everyone is dancing.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  And I wonder what the tipping point would have been here.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:25Jocko Willink?

  You get ten people out of five hundred, that wasn't enough.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 57:29Jocko Willink?

  But, but you know, what if all of a sudden fifteen, twenty, thirty, forty people would have stepped forward? Then all of a sudden, does it just, everyone says, hey, we're not doing this.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think if they knew, I wonder if they knew for sure that there wasn't gonna, you know, cause some guys were getting called names.

• 57:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, and I think it was the suddenness that, that he talked about in the book. You know, if, if you'd have said, okay, listen, tomorrow?

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna do, we're gonna go out and kill a bunch of women and children, point blank range in the woods.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna have to shoot them all.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, let me know if you're down.

• 57:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and then if, if you would have done that, but then given them hours to sit there and think about it?

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then the next guy's like, hey, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  Then, then it may have spread. But that peer pressure was hardcore.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  That's what I mean, man.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  Hardcore.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Especially like I said, if they're scared of the authority, it's like, okay, the tipping point's gonna be more for sure. But like, you know, you do something like, you know, your example, or you ever see, you know, you see this all the time where you say some, you're on stage, you say something kinda cool. Not, you know, it's not the end of your presentation, you say something kinda cool. And then one guy starts clapping and then everyone starts clapping, you know? It's kinda that thing where there's no consequence to clapping. So it's like, alright, oh shoot, that's what we're doing. Okay, I, I'll clap. I feel good about clapping, I'm gonna do it, you know, kinda thing. There's no real resistance. So the tipping point's gonna be one guy. That's the tipping point. But you get something where there's gonna be, there might be some resistance, some risk, you know, of, of pain or, you know, whatever kind of punishment. Yeah, the tipping point's gonna be more, I think.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  I wonder what that is, man, because not like, like the Nazi regime was very understanding, you know?

• 59:03Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no. I mean, you know, pretty much you can say that most military units aren't very understanding. You know, there's, there's gonna be a certain level of like, hey, you know, there, there's discipline in place for a region, reason. And you can get away, you know, I talk about all the time, you know, I say, look, you can't just order people to do things that only last for so long.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  But how long did it need to last here? It only needed to last a night. If you can get everyone to do what you need them to do tonight, you know, well, okay, we, we got through our mission. And now, I'll let them, you know, what did he do? He actually let him go get drunk and, you know, talk to him and, and built up some more leadership capital, cause he expended it. He expended a bunch of his leadership capital to get this mission done. And now, he's gotta rebuild it and re kinda get, develop his relationship again with the guys and, and bring in some other changes. Hey, look, you know, we're not gonna do all the killing this time, so, yeah.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Man, it's crazy. It's, I thought it was pretty surprising. And I'd be kinda, I feel kinda psycho saying, refreshing to know that they didn't get that much punishment.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Aside from some name calling, you know, because you don't think of it like that, I think. When you, when you think of that, like all this in it, you know. If the guy chose not to kill people.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all they got was name called.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Jocko Willink?

  And that's another thing that they probably that that might have changed the tipping point.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  When they realize. You know, those guys that stepped forward, they might have thought they get put in the ditch. Cause there's some, and I didn't cover this part, but there's, there's definitely some parts where guys like, hey, we'll put you in the ditch.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  That's actually what I thought.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Do your job.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Jocko Willink?

  But I think that reveals the discomfort of the overall situation.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Jocko Willink?

  They weren't looking at their buddy saying, no, I'm going to kill you now. They were like, hey, actually I kind of agree with you, but you just stay over there and we'll go forward.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  I know, bro.

• 1:00:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So the next situation that they get into are these deportations to Treblinka, the, the death camp. And here we go back to the book. While the policeman did not know precisely where the Jews were being sent or what was being done with them. It was all clear and well known to all of us. As Heinrich Steinmetz admitted, that for the Jews affected these deportations meant the path to death. We suspected that they would be killed in some sort of camp.

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Spared direct participation in the killing, the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 seemed scarcely to, to have been disturbed by this awareness. Even though there were more victims in the deportations than in Yosefo or Lomaze massacres combined. Out of sight was truly out of mind. So now they're in this mode of they're just doing the deportations. Now I say just doing the deportations and I don't want to make that sound like it wasn't a brutal vicious exercise that they were doing. Here we go back to the book, driven by the heewees and policemen, thousands of Jews steamed into the marketplace, streamed into the marketplace.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Here they had to sit or squat without moving or getting up as the hours passed on this very hot August of the late summer heat wave, many Jews fainted and collapsed. Moreover, beating and shooting continued in the marketplace.

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  And I don't know if I quoted this in here, or if I'll get to it, but these guys, they, they're shooting people, they also bring out whips. So they're whipping people. It's brutal. Back to the book, one final horror was reserved to the end for the train cars now had to be loaded. While the Heiwees and security police packed 120 to 140 Jews into each car, the reserve policemen stood guard and observed. As one remembered, when it didn't go well, they made use of riding whips and guns. The loading was simply frightful. There was an unearthly cry from these poor people because 10 or 20 cars were being loaded simultaneously. The entire freight train was dreadfully long.

• 1:03:10Jocko Willink?

  One could not see all of it. It may have been 50 to 60 cars, if not more, and after a car was loaded, the doors were closed and nailed shut. Once all the cars were sealed, the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 quickly departed without waiting to see the train pull away.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  These guys did their little part of the job, and they're gonna walk away now.

• 1:03:43Jocko Willink?

  But,

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  yeah.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, again, it's a nightmare scenario. Continuing on, shortly before the deportation program resumed in northern security zone, Reserve Police Battalion 101 was involved in several more mass shootings. So, there's a couple of times that they don't get the help that they had before, going back to the book, without the experienced help of the Heiwees, Wohlhoff organized the executions along the lines of Yosefov, of the Yosefov shooting. The groups of 20 to 30 Jews, which had been marched out of town in succession to gravel pits, were turned over to an equal number of Peters and Yurik's commandos. Thus, each policeman

• 1:04:32Jocko Willink?

  once again faced the individual Jew he was going to shoot.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  The Jews were not forced to undress, nor was there a collection of valuables. There was also no selection for labor. All the Jews, regardless of age and sex, were to be shot.

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  So then, you know, in the earlier ones, they were stripping them down and collecting their valuables. They're not even doing that. And I bet they're not doing that because when you do that, you're getting some kind of an interaction. You're seeing their personal items and they don't want any of that. Just take them out and shoot them. The easiest psychological way to do it. Back to the book, "The Policemen and the Shooting Commandos marched their Jews to the crest of one of the mounds of waste material in the area of the gravel pits. The victims were lined up facing a six-foot drop. From a short distance behind, the policemen fired on order into the necks of the Jews. The bodies tumbled over the edge. Following each round, the next group of Jews was brought up to the same spot

• 1:05:36Jocko Willink?

  and thus had to look down at the growing pile of corpses of their family and friends before they were shot in turn.

• 1:05:46Jocko Willink?

  Only after a number of rounds did the shooters change sights."

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Here's some more deportation operations. They're back to doing deportations, back to the book. "But even the most unfettered violence could not overcome the shortage of train cars. And when the doors were finally forced shut, about 150 Jews, mostly women and children, but also some men, remained. Nade, this was that same lieutenant sadist, summoned Drucker and told him to take these Jews to the cemetery. At the cemetery entrance, the policemen chased away the eager spectators and waited until First Sergeant Ostman arrived in a truck with a supply of vodka for the shooters.

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  Ostman turned to one of his men, who had, Hitherto, avoided shooting, and chided him. "Drink up now, Pfeiffer. You're in for it this time because the Jewesses must be shot. You've gotten yourself out of it so far, but now you must go to it."

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  An execution squad of about 20 men was sent into the cemetery. The Jews were brought in groups of 20, men first, and then women and children.

• 1:07:16Jocko Willink?

  They were first to lie down near the cemetery wall and then shot from behind the neck.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  Each policeman fired seven or eight times. At the cemetery gate, one Jew sprang at Drucker with a syringe but was quickly subdued. The other Jew sat quietly awaiting their fate, even after the shooting began.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  They were quite emaciated and looked half-starved to death, one guard remembered.

• 1:07:57Jocko Willink?

  The, and it's, it's covered in here, not in the kind of detail we should cover it, but,

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  you know, these Jews that were now getting rounded up, they were already in most of the, well, in some of the cases in the book, they were already in these ghettos, Jewish ghettos, like they'd been forced into these ghettos. They're now just living, they're starving, but they're living. And, and then the Germans didn't, no more Jews. They wanted the areas, I think the word was Judenfree, was like free of Jews. So now even these people, and by the way, there were some, some of the Germans that complained, like, hey, those are my laborers. You can't kill my laborers. No, we're killing everyone. So even again, it's not like this is an enemy with a threat. These people were now completely subdued, living in these, in

• 1:08:53Jocko Willink?

  these, I don't call them ghettos, they're like prison ghettos. They're living in there, they're no threat to anybody. But they round them up, take them out, kill them.

• 1:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, one of the interesting points that they bring up in the book, and I want to cover the whole thing, but it's worth mentioning, is that this guy Hoffman, one of the, one of the captains, he has this strange stomach illness, like he gets upset to his stomach.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  So here we go, he misses some of the actions, or at least he's not there present where the executions are taking place and whatnot. And it just painted a picture of the kind of leader that he is. So going back to the book uniformly Hoffman's men offered a different perspective. Meaning it's not just like, you know, he's sick to his stomach and blah, blah, blah. By their observation, his alleged bouts of stomach cramps, confining him safely to bed coincided all too consistently with company actions that might involve either unpleasantness or danger. It became common for the men to predict upon hearing the night before a pending action that the company chief would be bedridden in the morning.

• 1:10:08Jocko Willink?

  Hoffman's behavior rankled his men even more because of two aggravating factors. First, he'd always been strict and unapproachable. A typical base officer who liked his white collar and gloves, wore his SS insignia on his uniform, and demanded considerable deference. So that's, that's the one thing you heard about the guy. This is, this paints the, the worst picture of just such a horrible human being. He loves wearing his rank. He loves being the guy, a base officer. Now there's, there's a, a term for that they have. I think we made up in the, not we, but the, the US current war fighting soldiers and Marines.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  It's a FOBbit. FOBbit? A FOBbit. So you get something called a forward operating base overseas and, and the forward operating bases can actually be, you know, pretty nice there. They're relatively secure. And so the, the FOBbit, right, is the leader that just wants to stay on the FOB. Yeah. Don't want to go out. So this guy's, but of course the FOBbits are always running around, you know, wanting to be respected, demanding respect, demanding deference. So this guy's a FOBbit. The other thing is, and this is very typical of this kind of wretched human.

• 1:11:32Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Second, Hoffman tried to compensate for his immobility by intensified supervision of his subordinates. So he's not around, but he's just going to be more of a jerk and impose himself more onto the, onto the men.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  Now they're continuing with another

• 1:11:55Jocko Willink?

  another ghetto that had to be cleared. Back to the book. By October, the order was for real. Blackguards announced that all Jews who did not go to the ghettos would be shot. The shooting order was made part of regular company instructions to the men and given repeatedly, especially before they were sent on patrol. No one could be left in any doubt that not a single Jew was to remain alive in the battalion's security zone. In official jargon, the battalion made forest patrols for suspects. As the surviving Jews were to be tracked down and shot like animals, however, the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 unofficially dubbed this phase of the Final Solution, "The Jew Hunt."

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  The Jew Hunt took many forms. Most spectacular were two battalion sweeps.

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  And here's some George Lefler of Third Company talking about that, what those sweeps were like. Back to the book. "We were told that there were many Jews hiding in the forest. We therefore searched through the woods in a skirmish line, but we could find nothing because the Jews were obviously well-hidden. We combed the woods a second time. Only then could we discover individual chimney pipes sticking out of the earth. We discovered that Jews had hidden themselves in underground bunkers here. They were hauled out with some resistance in only one bunker. Some of the comrades climbed down into this bunker and hauled the Jews out. The Jews were then shot on the spot. The Jews had to lie face down

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  on the ground and were killed by a neck shot."

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Who was in the firing squad? I don't remember. I think it was simply a case where the men standing nearby were ordered to shoot them. Some 50 Jews were shot, including men and women of all ages, because entire families had hidden themselves there.

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  The shooting took place quite publicly. No cordon was formed at all for a number of poles from Parsu were standing directly by the shooting site. They were then ordered presumably by Hoffman to bury the Jews who had been shot in a half-finished bunker. So, again, you've got some of the Jews had been consolidated in these ghettos and now there are anyone that's not any Jew that's not in the ghetto, they're out hunting them. Here's another version of it. In cases where the farmyard and the Jewish lodgings could be reached quickly, I drove into the farmyard at high speed and the police sprang out and immediately rushed to the Jewish lodgings.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Then all the Jews present at the time were driven out and shot in the farmyard near a haystack, potato pit, or dung heap. The victims were almost always naked and were shot in the neck while lying on the ground.

• 1:14:58Jocko Willink?

  Now, even as this was taking place, there's still people that are trying to avoid the shooting. Back to the book, the tactic of keeping one's distance was invoked by Heinrich Feucht. To explain how he avoided shooting on all but one occasion, one always had a certain freedom of movement of a few meters. And from experience, I noticed very quickly that the platoon leader almost always chose the people standing next to him. I thus always attempted to take position as far as possible from the center of events. Others likewise sought to avoid shooting by staying in the background.

• 1:15:41Jocko Willink?

  So there's still guys that are not... they're trying, they're doing their best not to participate. Again, do they do anything to stop it? No. But this, this was a great kind of a rap on the, on the Jew hunt and what this was like. Back to the book, the Jew hunt was not a brief episode. It was a tenacious, remorseless, ongoing campaign in which the hunters tracked down and killed their prey in direct and personal confrontation. It was not a passing phase, but an existential condition of constant readiness and intention to kill every last Jew who could be found.

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Now we're gonna cover this last massacre that took place. And Jews had been sent from, uh, to, to a prison camp to be executed. And, and they were rounded up, I think it was a place called La- LaBic. And they were sent to be executed. And the police battalion is now acting as kind of guards and accessories to this, to, to make sure that the executions, these mass executions take place correctly. Going back to the book. As the Jews passed between the chain of reserve policemen into the camp,

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  music blared from two loudspeaker trucks. Despite the attempt to drown out other noise, the sound of steady gunfire could be heard from the camp. The Jews were taken to the last row of barracks where they undressed. Arms raised, hands clasped behind their necks, totally naked. They were led in groups from the barracks through a hole cut in the fence to the trenches that had been dug behind the camp. This route was guarded by men from the Reserve Police Battalion 101. Stationed only 10 meters from the graves, Heinrich Bolkholt of First Company witnessed the killing procedure.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  Quote, "From my position, I could now observe how the Jews were driven naked from the barracks by other members of our battalion." The shooters of the execution commandos, who sat on the edge of the graves directly in front of me were members of the SD. And the SD is like the SS intel, intelligence group, the SD. Some distance be- behind each shooter stood several other SD men who constantly kept the magazines of the submachine guns filled and handed them to each shooter.

• 1:18:29Jocko Willink?

  A number of shooters were assigned to each grave. Today, I can no longer provide details about the number of graves. It is possible that there were many such graves where shooting took place simultaneously. I definitely remember that the naked Jews were driven directly into the graves and forced to lie down quite precisely on top of those who had been shot before them.

• 1:18:53Jocko Willink?

  The shooter then fired off a burst at these prone victims.

• 1:18:58Jocko Willink?

  How long the action lasted, I can no longer say with certainty. Presumably, it lasted the entire day because I remember that I was relieved once from my post.

• 1:19:10Jocko Willink?

  I can give no details about the number of victims, but there were an awful lot of them.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, it's almost incomprehensible to imagine that you're one of these Jews getting forced, you're naked, lay down, go into this pit, lay down on top of those other people that were just shot, so you can be shot too.

• 1:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Another witness, Martin Detmold, quote, "Because I was a group leader and could move about more freely, I went once directly to the execution site and saw how the newly arriving Jews had to lie down on those already shot. They were then likewise shot with bursts from submachine guns. The SD men took care that the Jews were shot in such a way that there were inclines in the piles of corpses, enabling the newcomers to lie down on the corpses piled as much as three meters high."

• 1:20:13Jocko Willink?

  "The whole business was the most gruesome I have ever seen in my life, because I was frequently able to see that after a burst of, a burst had been fired, the Jews were only wounded and those still living were more or less buried alive beneath the corpses of those shot later, without the wounded being given so-called mercy shots."

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  "I remember that from out of the pile of corpses, the SS men were cursed by the wounded."

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  And that was sort of the final

• 1:21:00Jocko Willink?

  participation of 101 Battalion. And here we get to their, how it kind of wrapped up. At the conclusion of the Erntfest massacres, the District of Lublin was, for all practical purposes, Judenfree. Free of Jews. The murderous participation of Reserve Battalion, Reserve Police Battalion 101 in The Final Solution came to an end. With a conservative estimate of 6,500 Jews shot during earlier actions like those at Yosefhof and Lomazie, and 1,000 shot during the Jew hunts, and a minimum estimate of 3,000, 30,500 Jews

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  shot at Maginenc and Pontytois, the battalion had participated in the direct shooting deaths of at least 38,000 Jews.

• 1:22:00Jocko Willink?

  With the death camp deportation of at least 3,000 Jews from Mitzorek in early May 1943, the number of Jews they had placed on trains to Jablenka

• 1:22:14Jocko Willink?

  had risen to 45,000. For a battalion of less than 500 men, the ultimate body count

• 1:22:24Jocko Willink?

  was at least 83,000 Jews.

• 1:22:41Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  And here he asks the question back to the book, why did most men in Reserve Police Battalion 101 become killers while only a minority of perhaps 10% and certainly no more than 20% did not? A number of explanations have been invoked in the past to explain such behavior. War time brutalization, racism, segmentation and routinization of the task, special selection of the perpetrators, careerism, obedience to orders, deference to authority, ideological indoctrination and conformity. These factors are applicable in varying degrees, but none without qualifications.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  So he's trying to now figure out why these people did what they did. And that's a list of all the kind of excuses or reasons, I should say, of why these men behaved this way. Talks a little bit about overall kind of war crimes here. Back to the book, many of the most notorious wartime atrocities. The Japanese rampage through Manila, the American slaughter of prisoners and mutilation of corpses on many of the Pacific Islands and the massacre at My Lai involved a kind of battlefield frenzy. Soldiers who were inured to violence, numb to the taking of human life, embittered over

• 1:24:09Jocko Willink?

  their own casualties and frustrated by the tenacity of an insidious and seemingly inhuman enemy, sometimes exploded and at other times grimly resolved to have their revenge at first opportunity. So that's one type. For me, what's that called? When you like a non-premeditated murder? Yeah. Right? Like just, you know, the guy comes home and his wife's with some other guy and boom, he goes battlefield frenzy. Yeah. That's one kind. Now we talk about this premeditated. Back to the book, other kinds of atrocity, lacking the immediacy of the battlefield frenzy and fully expressing official government policy decidedly were standard operating procedures.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  Firebombing of German, Japanese cities, the enslavement and murderous maltreatment of foreign laborers in German camps and factories or along the CM Burma Railroad.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  The reprisal shooting of 100 civilians for every German soldier killed by partisan attack in Yugoslavia or elsewhere in Eastern Europe, these were not the spontaneous explosions or cruel revenge of brutalized men, but the methodical executed policies of government. Both kinds of atrocities occur in the brutalizing context of war, but the men who carry out atrocity by policy are in a different state of mind. They act not out of frenzy, bitterness, and frustration, but with calculation. Clearly, the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101, in implementing the systematic Nazi

• 1:25:47Jocko Willink?

  policy of exterminating European Jewry, belong in the second category. Except for a few of the oldest men, who were veterans of World War I, and a few NCOs who had been transferred from Poland, to Poland from Russia, the men of the battalion had not seen battle or encountered a deadly enemy. Most of them had not fired a shot in anger or even been fired upon, much less lost comrades in fighting at their side. Thus, wartime brutalization through prior combat was not an immediate experience directly influencing the policeman's behavior at Yosefov. Once the killing began, however, the men became increasingly brutalized.

• 1:26:32Jocko Willink?

  As in combat, the horrors of the initial encounter eventually became routine, and the killing became progressively easier. In a sense, in this sense, brutalization was not the cause, but the effect of the men's behavior. So he's kind of saying, "Look, like what you said, these guys aren't fighting an enemy, they hadn't lost their buddy, they're not avenging their buddy that got killed next to them, blown up by an IED, and now they're gonna take it out on this group that they capture." It's not like that.

• 1:27:07Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, as John Dower has observed, the dehumanization of the other contributed immeasurably to the psychological distancing that facilitated killing. Distancing, not frenzy and brutalization, is one of the keys to the behavior of the Reserve Police Battalion 101. War and negative racial stereotyping were two mutually reinforcing factors in this distancing. So, in order to kill these people, you gotta distance yourself from them. You can't, you can't see them as human, you can't see them as people. Many scholars of the Holocaust, especially Raul Hilberg, have emphasized the bureaucratic and administrative aspects of the destruction process.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  This is very interesting. This approach emphasizes the degree to which modern bureaucratic life fosters a functional and physical distancing in the same way that war and negative racial stereotype promote a psychological distancing between perpetrator and victim. So, you form this bureaucratic machine, that you're only a little piece of it. You're, all you're doing is collecting people, all you're doing is putting them in trains, you're not killing anybody.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  You're, all you're doing is rounding them up, all you're doing is guarding them as they're getting pushed down to the, into the graves, that's not you.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Jocko Willink?

  It's a big bureaucratic machine, you're not, you're just a little piece of it. Back to the book, indeed, many of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were so-called desk murderers, whose role in the mass extermination was greatly facilitated by the bureaucratic nature of their participation. Their jobs frequently consisted of tiny steps in the overall killing process, and they performed them in routine manner, never seeing the victims, their actions affected. Segmented, routineized, and depersonalized, the job of the bureaucratic, the bureaucrat or specialist, whether it involved confiscating property, scheduling trains, drafting legislation,

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  sending telegrams, or compiling lists, could be performed without confronting the reality of mass murder.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  Such a luxury, of course, was not enjoyed by the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101, who were quite literally saturated in the blood of victims shot at point-blank range. No one confronted the reality of mass murder more directly than the men in the woods of Yosevov. Segmentation and routinization, the depersonalizing aspects of the bureaucratic caused killing cannot explain the battalion's initial behavior there. So again, he's saying, "Look, that makes sense. You turned this into a big bureaucratic thing, but that's not what happened here with these guys." The facilitating psychological effect of a division of labor for the killing process was not totally negligible, however.

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  So then he talks about the fact that they did make those adjustments and take the killing out of their hands somewhat. And that did make it easier for them. Now, he talks about, you know, one of the things that he mentioned early on and why this happened, he talks about the special selection of the right people. Well, that doesn't really hold true either, because here we go. Back to the book, "The case for special selection of officers is even more difficult to make. By SS standards, Major Trapp was a patriotic German, but traditionally an overly sentimental, what in Nazi Germany was scornfully considered both weak and reactionary."

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  So you can't say it was the selection of people, and we already talked about all the different types of normal people that were doing this. They didn't pull some truck driver in Hamburg out and said, "That's 38 years old," and say, "This guy's going to be the perfect..." No, they didn't do that. Back to the book, "Reserve Police Battalion was not sent to Lublin to murder Jews because it was composed of men specifically selected or deemed particularly suited for the task. On the contrary, the battalion was the dregs of the manpower pool available at that stage of war. It was employed to kill Jews because it was the only kind of unit available for such behind-the-line duties."

• 1:31:21Jocko Willink?

  Many studies of Nazi killers suggested a different kind of selection, namely self-selection to the party and the SS by unusually violence-prone people. Shortly after the war, Theodore Adorno and many others, and others, developed the notion that there's an authoritarian personality. So they started looking at the, there's certain people that have, that are susceptible to having this type of personality. They made up something called the F scale, which is, is like your propensity to have an authoritarian personality. Here's some of the ingredients there.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, rigid adherence to conventional values, submissiveness to authority figures, aggressiveness toward out-groups, opposition to introspection, reflection, and creativity, a tendency to superstition and stereotyping, preoccupation with power, and toughness, destructiveness and cynicism. So these are the kind of things that, they're saying that these types of personalities would become Nazis, because that's the type of personality they have. There's another, like, kind of, kind of, to make this as simple as possible, a guy named Zigmunt Bauman has summed up this approach as follows.

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  "Nazism was cruel because Nazis were cruel, and the Nazis were cruel because cruel people tended to become Nazis." Again, these are theories. I don't think you can apply that to a truck driver from Hamburg. That got, that got drafted, they didn't even self-select, they got drafted. They got told, "Okay, you need to be in the, in the army here." Or in the police battalion.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  It's almost like it's not necessarily...

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  You know, him, a person being a truck driver is like, um, you know, this, this exclusionary occupation. It's more like, just because they're a truck driver, it just doesn't mean anything. It's like, that's not the factor.

• 1:33:29Jocko Willink?

  Truck driver. Something else. Anything, when they talked about all these people from Hamburg, anything that they talked about. None of those, it's not like, we got a bunch of guys that were, uh, that worked at a slaughterhouse.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, we're gonna recruit all these people from a slaughterhouse. No, we didn't recruit hunters. We didn't, they didn't recruit, um, football players, because they're aggressive. No, it was just random, any job, and they showed up there. So, you know, basically, what I'm getting out of this is he's saying like, no, it's like, you can't really say it's that either.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:02Jocko Willink?

  Because it's just a waiter and a salesperson.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  But, at the same time, the guy who's a waiter could have these other qualities, you know, like how you're talking.

• 1:34:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you take 500 people from Hamburg, between the ages of 35 and 40, you're not gonna find that like, all these guys had those kind of fascist qualities about them. Not happening.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Some people become, this is Eric, or sorry, Ervin Staub accepts the notion that some people become perpetrators as a result of their personality. They are self-selected. And he says that, under particular circumstances, most people have a capacity for extreme violence and the destruction of human life. It's an interesting one. Under certain circumstances, everyone has a propensity for violence.

• 1:34:56Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure we, there's people that would argue that in all different directions. But, you know, you take a, a middle-aged woman that's never been in a fistfight before, and you have somebody attack her child that's gonna kill or harm their child, I think you see a propensity for violence from a lot of them.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  Maybe even, you know, what, 99%?

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say ninety-nine percent.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  I'll go with that too, yeah.

• 1:35:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, ninety-nine percent if you're, if it's a middle-aged woman who has someone that's about to severely hurt or kill their child and their way to stop it is with a pistol.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  My assessment is, we're going to ninety-nine percent of that perpetrator's getting killed.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, like with, with, um, specific

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  effort towards like the violent part of it. You know how like, um, you know, I don't, I'm not saying on a movie necessarily, but you know, that old thing, well, let's say, imagine a scenario like that where the lady's gonna, you know, shoot this guy, cause the guy's attacking the kid or something. It won't be like, oh, let me do the bare minimum force, you know, to, to eliminate the threat. She's probably gonna be kinda, she'll go overboard killing that guy.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Gonna kill him extra?

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because that's kinda the violence coming out of someone. It's one thing to do it because I'm scared and oh my gosh, get away from me kinda thing. That's not violence.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  So it's, that's really the question when you consider a middle-aged girl, um, you know, having a propensity for violence.

• 1:36:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't think she's gonna do extra. I think she's gonna kill him and go, and go grab her kid and make sure her kid's safe.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't see this extra level, you know, desecration of the body or anything like that. I just see, hey, I'm gonna make my kid safe.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you're saying the propensity for violence in that case is just the mere act of killing the guy?

• 1:36:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, yeah, that's, that's, that's it.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you know how like,

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  I'm thinking of a movie for whatever reason.

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's all, that's all your brain is filled with.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Television in general, but you know, the girl, she's like scared. It's all done out of fear, you know? And sure, it's almost like the violence is just happenstance. It's not her propensity for violence necessarily, but it's just the violence.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I'm just saying, if you set up an experiment.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:20Jocko Willink?

  Where you took a middle-aged group of women.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  And they had children.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, like.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  And you put them in a scenario where. You know, was either the, either the kid dies or they kill the perpetrator.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, not like a, hey, I might be able to bait him out of it. No. The, the, the axe is in the air. It's going to be swung down on the kid.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  You have to press this button to, to kill that guy.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, where violence is the choice.

• 1:37:43Jocko Willink?

  Violence is the choice.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  I think the propensity is going to be 99 and I'm going to go even higher.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  So this, then he gets into, um, some of these real famous experiments, kind of sociological experiments.

• 1:38:00Jocko Willink?

  One of them is the Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment. I'm sure you've heard of that. Everyone's heard of that where they basically take people and divide them up. And just randomly, and actually I didn't know this because I never did any deep research on the study, but they, they kind of do a, a pre-screening to make sure that there's no extreme personalities. Everyone that was, everyone that was like, I mean, whatever, however you could, you could frame the word normal, the people that participate in the experiment are just like normal people. They didn't have any extreme personalities. Well, those kind of semi-normal people, they put them in that prison experiment and sure enough, some people were made guards, some people were made prisoners.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  And they had to get them to do certain things and there's a certain number, I mean, it didn't take long for the guards. I think it took six days. Some of the guards turned sadistic, evil, right? And here we go back to the book. Most dramatic and distressing to us was the observation of the ease with which sadistic behavior could be elicited in individuals who are not sadistic types. The prison situation alone, Zimbardo concluded, was a sufficient condition to produce aberrant, antisocial behavior. That's from the guards, from the guards. So this is pretty scary. Then another fact here pointing out about that. Only two, i.e. less than 20% emerged as good guards.

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  Who did not punish prisoners even as they, and even did small favor for them. So those numbers are pretty in line with this really small percentage of people that just, they're just good people.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's only 10 to 20% of actual good people. How's that make you feel about the human race? Not real good.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Not real good. All right.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  Another thing put out here back to the book, among the perpetrators, of course, orders have traditionally been most frequently cited explanation for their own behavior. So remember, orders are orders. Orders were orders and no one in such a political climate could be expected to disobey them. They insisted. This is the, this is the guards. I mean, sorry, this is the, the police battalion saying, look, we're getting ordered to do this stuff. We're just following orders. We hear that all the time. Disobedience surely meant the concentration camp, if not immediate execution, possibly for their families as well. So they're saying, look, if we would, we would have ended up in the concentration camps ourselves if this had happened. Now, he points this out.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, there is a general problem with this explanation, however, quite simply in the past forty five years, no defense attorney or defendant in any of the hundreds of post-war trials has been able to document a single case in which refusal to obey an order to kill unarmed civilians resulted in the allegedly inevitable dire punishment. So there's no precedent for that. Now, I, I, I, I don't think that these guys out there in the battalion are sitting there thinking about this with like legal perspective. Saying, well, actually, there's no precedent for, you know, punishment being carried out on people that have been on. I, I think that's a stretch. I think that's a stretch.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Well, when you're talking about like maybe someone contemplating refusing.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  These guys that were saying, I couldn't refuse the orders because I would get punished.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:21Jocko Willink?

  And he's saying that there's no precedence that you actually will get this severe punishment. But how's a, you know,

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Right, when you're in a situation.

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  Someone out in the field gonna know that that's a, that's a precedence. You don't, you just think, I don't want to get in trouble.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not thinking about the, the time you remember the guy that you've heard of getting killed.

• 1:41:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  You're not thinking of that. You're thinking about yourself.

• 1:41:44Jocko Willink?

  And even more so, you're not thinking about the fact that you've never heard of that before.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Jocko Willink?

  Because that's what he's saying.

• 1:41:51Jocko Willink?

  All right, now, so we're talking about obedience of orders, and here we go back to the book. If obedience to orders out of fear of dire punishment is not a valid explanation, what about obedience to authority? In the more general sense, used by Stanley Milgram, deference simply as a product of socialization and evolution, a deeply ingrained behavior tendency to comply with the directives of those positioned hierarchically above them, even to the point of performing repugnant actions in violation of universally accepted moral norms. So, you've heard of the Milgram experiments?

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:42:29Jocko Willink?

  These are, these are kinda like the Stanford Prison, pretty famous. And what he did was he set up these experiments where he had, you couldn't see, these actors were behind a wall. But, they were getting asked questions, and the, the, if they answered the question wrong, they would get a little electric shock.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:50Jocko Willink?

  That was done by the person that was being experimented on. So, you know, I would be, they'd say, "Okay, Jocko, you got this guy, his name is Echo, he's over there, gonna ask him a question. If he gets it wrong, you hit him with this shock. I can't see you, but I can hear you. So, when I shock you, and, and every question that you get wrong, I, I have to escalate the level of shock, so it's getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And your reaction is more and more horrific as these things escalate.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Right, but you're the guy, the experiment is on, not me.

• 1:43:19Jocko Willink?

  Experiment is on me, no, you're just an actor, there's no actual shock happening.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:43:22Jocko Willink?

  So, and you're actually going through, uh,

• 1:43:27Jocko Willink?

  series of complaints, and I'll, I'll read this here. "There was an escalating series of fake electric shocks upon a vic, actor or victim who responded with carefully programmed voice feedback. An escalating series of complaints, cries of pain, call for help, and finally, fateful silence. In the standard voice feedback experiment, two-thirds of Milgram's subjects were obedient to the point of inflicting extreme pain."

• 1:43:56Jocko Willink?

  Several variations on the experiment produced significantly different results. If the actor slash victim was shielded so that the subject could hear and see no response, obedience was much greater. So if I couldn't hear you and I just knew that I was shocking the hell out of you, I was good with it. If the subject had both visual and voice feedback, compliance fell to the, compliance to the extreme fell to 40%. So down from 66% to 40%. If the subject had had to touch the actor slash victim physically by forcing his hand onto an electric plate to deliver the shocks, obedience dropped to 30%. Now, this is, this is fascinating. If a non-authority figure gave orders, obedience was nil.

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  So if some guy was like, hey, you know, hey, I'm Bill, I'm running the experiment. Um, hey, shock this guy. If the guy was no authority, they got no, they got no, none. No obedience. So that shows you, and that's from a leadership perspective, that's very important to understand. It's important to understand how much influence you have when you're in a leadership position. And I run into this all the time and I ran into it in the SEAL teams. When a guy doesn't recognize the, the power of his rank. And he doesn't recognize that just by wearing his rank, when he says something, people are kind of like gonna do it. They're gonna, well, they wanna do it.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  So then, uh, going back to the book here, if the naive subject performed a subsidiary or accessory task, but did not personally inflict the electric shocks, obedience was nearly total. So that goes down to the division of labor again. If it was just me saying, okay, I asked him a question, you have to shock him again. And some other guy was shocking you, I'd go straight to 100.

• 1:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Straight to 100. In contrast, if the subject or peer was part of an, or if the subject was part of an actor peer group that staged carefully planned refusal to continue to follow the directions of the authority figure, the vast majority of subjects, 90% joined their peer group and desist and desisted as well. So that's the tipping point thing. If there was other, so if it was, if it was three of us that were conducting the experiment on you and the other, and I was the, the, the naive guy that doesn't know what's going on, I'm the one that they're actually doing the experiment on.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  And there's two guys, two actors that are in the room with me and they're gonna be like, "Hey, man, we shouldn't be doing this." And the other guy goes, "Yeah, man, that looks like it's really hurting. We should stop this." 90% of the time, I go, "Yeah, you guys are right."

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Jocko Willink?

  Psychology, group psychology. If the subject was given complete discretion as to the level of electric shock to administer, all but a few sadists consistently delivered a minimal shock. When not under direct surveillance of the scientist, many of the subjects cheated by giving lower shocks than prescribed, even though they were unable to confront authority and abandon the experiment. So they'd give lower shocks, but they wouldn't walk away from it. They wouldn't just say, "I'm not gonna do this."

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  It's weird. So everyone's re- really? You know what it is? We're all just on the edge, man. In a way, like, and we kinda need each other in that way, too.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's, again, this is, you know, this is about leadership. It's amazing how influential, or how influencible people are. They're so ready for influence. They're so ready to be told, like, "Hey, man, we shouldn't be doing this."

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing we saw with the, with the podcast on the MyLime massacre. All it took was one officer saying, "Stop killing." And everyone, "Okay, stop killing."

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  Everyone just, they just need to get nudged in that direction. And by the way, they had already been nudged in the other direction, which is kill everyone. And they said, "Okay, cool."

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's what I mean by on the, I don't mean on the edge of like standing up there. I mean, on the fence.

• 1:47:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, on the fence. And that's why leadership is so important, because you're walking around with people all over the world and, and whatever position you're in, regardless if it's in a work environment, if it's a social environment, if it's with your friend or your peer group, you have so much power over people just by being a leader and by using that influence to work people one way or the other.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's crazy, man.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is crazy.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book, to what were the vast majority of Traps men responding to when they did not step out?

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Was it the authority as represented by either Trapp or his superiors? Were they responding to Trapp not primarily as an authority figure, but as an individual? A popular and beloved officer who they assumed? Who they would not leave in the lurch? What about other factors? Milgram himself notes that far, that people far more frequently invoke authority than conformity to explain their behavior. For only the former seems to absolve them of personal responsibility. And he quotes here, "Subjects deny conformity and embrace obedience as the explanation of their actions." So people don't like to say, "Everyone else is doing it, so I did it." People don't like to say that.

• 1:48:57Jocko Willink?

  Because that, that, that means I'm responsible for it. People don't like to take ownership of things.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  That's why we have a book called Extreme Ownership. People don't like to take ownership of things. Right? Instead, they want to say, "As soon as I blame something on my boss," and this is one of the, you know, big things in Extreme Ownership, leading up the chain of command. It's so easy to blame your boss. Because how can I control my boss? I was following orders. I was following orders. Boss told me to do this. That's why we failed the mission. I was told to do this. He didn't give me the right gear. That's, we hear this all the time. And, and, and Milgram says it too. No one wants to say, "Hey, you know what? I decided I was just gonna do what everyone else was doing." That's my decision. Instead, they put that decision on the other guy, on the boss man. Yeah. Yep.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Another exploration here, back to the book. "Direct proximity to the horror of killing significantly increased the number of men who would no longer comply. On the other hand, with the division of labor and removal of the killing process to the death camps, the men felt scarcely any responsibility at all for, for their actions." Same thing Milgram figured out. You know, if I got someone else that's pressing the button over there that's shocking you, I'm good with it. Keep rolling.

• 1:50:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, one thing that Milgram kinda talks about is his...

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  The kinda indoctrination, or what kind of ideological justification did he give to his people? It's really just pre-existing in Milgram's experiments, these are just kinda normal people. So, what about with the Nazis? And what kind of indoctrination, they get brainwashed, right?

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  We've talked about this a little bit already, but back to the book. "All order police battalions were to be strengthened in character and ideology." "One topic for the first week, they went through like a school and education, ideological education." "One topic for the first week was, 'Race as the basis of our worldview.'" "Followed by the second week, 'Maintaining the purity of blood.'"

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. These guys are being indoctrinated, but the reason that that argument doesn't really hold much weight is because of the way, who the people were. And back to the book, "Whatever the merits of such an argument, it clearly does not hold for the predominantly middle-aged men of Reserve Police Battalion 101." "They were educated and spent their formative years in the pre-1933 period." "Many came from a social melu that was relatively unreceptive to national socialism." "They knew perfectly well the moral norms of German society before the Nazis." "So, you can't really blame it on them being brainwashed."

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  So, here's how Browning wraps up this book. I'm gonna close it out.

• 1:51:47Jocko Willink?

  "The behavior of any human being is, of course, a very complex phenomenon, and the historian who attempts to explain it is indulging in a certain arrogance. When nearly 500 men are involved, to undertake any general explanation of their collective behavior is even more hazardous." "What, then, is one to conclude? Most of all, one comes away from the story of Reserve Police Battalion 101 with a great unease."

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  "This story of ordinary men is not the story of all men. The reserve policemen faced choices, and most of them committed terrible deeds."

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  But those who killed cannot be absolved by the notion that anyone in the same situation would have done as they did, for even among them, some refused to kill and others stopped killing. Human responsibility is ultimately an individual matter. At the same time, however, the collective behavior of Reserve Police Battalion 101 has deeply disturbing implications. There are many societies afflicted by traditions of racism and caught in the siege mentality of war or threat of war.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  Everywhere, society conditions people to respect and defer to authority and indeed could scarcely function otherwise. Everywhere, people seek career advancement. In every modern society, the complexity of life and the resulting bureaucratization and specialization attenuate the sense of personal responsibility of those implementing official policy. Within virtually every social collective, the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on behavior and sets moral norms.

• 1:54:02Jocko Willink?

  If the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances, what group of men cannot? And there you have it, and I think those are some...

• 1:54:27Jocko Willink?

  Extremely important warnings that are laid out there. I mean, obviously, the first one, we have to be aware of traditions of racism and the threat of war. And I think those are pretty obvious and stand out pretty clearly. Yeah.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  I think the other ones are a little bit trickier.

• 1:54:54Jocko Willink?

  Right? I think we gotta watch out

• 1:54:57Jocko Willink?

  for the fact that we are conditioned to respect and defer to authority. I say to that, no. And I actually, you know, I, when I grew up, I was a rebellious kid. Sure. And I listened to rebellious music and I was a rebellious kid. I talk about that. And I think that was very beneficial for me in my military career.

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  And I explain that all the time, that I asked questions. If I don't believe in something, I'm gonna ask questions. And by the way, I don't, I want the people that work for me or with me, I want them to ask questions too. I don't want to be surrounded by yes men. And I'm not gonna be a yes man, never was.

• 1:55:45Jocko Willink?

  Let me caveat that, not that I never was. Because sometimes you gotta be a yes man in order to get the inner circle where you can actually have influence. So have I played that game before? Yes, I have. Yeah, boss, that sounds like a good plan. Yeah, boss, yeah, that's a good plan. Oh, I trust Jocko. He agrees with me all the time. Hey, boss, you're going off the rails over here. You stop it. Oh, I'm gonna listen to Jocko because he listens to me. So have I played that game before? Yes, of course I have. So we need to be careful that we don't submit always to authority. It's a hard thing to raise your kids with too, right?

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  Cause you want your kids to submit to your authority, but you don't want them to.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:26Jocko Willink?

  I have to always remind myself when they rebel against me, I have to say to myself, good. Because I want them to ask questions. I want them to question authority. I don't want them to just obey.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:56:38Jocko Willink?

  And that freaks people out. It freaks people out when you say, you know, I'll go and work with a company and I'll be saying like, no, I want your people. You want your people to ask questions. If you want to just order them around and they're just going to obey you, first of all, I'm not going to help you there. Because that's not a system that's functional. It'll be functional for a week. It'll be functional for two weeks. But eventually you'll have people that don't understand why they're doing what they're doing. They don't put their effort to it. They can't make decisions on their own and you end up with a bad team.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  We don't want that kind of authoritarian leadership anywhere.

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:13Jocko Willink?

  And certainly not, not anywhere. Again, does it work for five minutes? Does it work for a week? Yeah. Is it sometimes needed because people gotta, we gotta get something done right now? Yeah. But you better follow that up with some non-authoritarian leadership with, with explaining and building relationships with people.

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that explanation thing that you talk about all the time, we're explaining why. Explain why I'm telling you to do this. It's important because of this, X, Y, Z. Man, it, and I'm speaking from a perspective of being a parent, how effective that is. You just say, this is, this is why you're doing it.

• 1:57:48Jocko Willink?

  That's effective. How, how old is your daughter now? Yeah, it's already effective, a four-year-old.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  Give you some warnings. You can't always rationalize with a four-year-old. Sometimes they just want that cookie.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  And there's no why about it.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  It was strangely with the, um, we, we have a situation right now where, um, her cousin is in and, um, you know, he put, in a nutshell, his diet isn't quite, um, as.

• 1:58:13Jocko Willink?

  She's not on the, he's not on the program.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  He's not on the program like how my daughter is. Program, but you know, he'll eat junk food or whatever, right? And it's kind of part of the experience I understand where, you know, hey, cousin's in from out of town. It's a little bit more festive and loose and it's, yeah, so. After a while, I started realizing like

• 1:58:32Jocko Willink?

  Cousins show up at my house and get on the program.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  It should be like that. So after a while, I was like, hey, you know, we, there's, there's too many treats going on. These days, you know, for the summer.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  Echo had to drop a hammer.

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  A little bit. And so when I told my daughter, I was like, no, you know, we're not gonna do this. And I explained why. You could tell she didn't, she wasn't happy with it, but she totally understood, four years old, where, and I did it in a way where it wasn't like

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  Did you reference way of the warrior kid a little bit?

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  I always do. She was wearing that shirt to school today, too, by the way.

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, then that's an easy win right there.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Easy money, yeah. But it was, it wa, I didn't scare her, you know, I wasn't like, oh, then you're gonna be a loser or something, you know, something like that.

• 1:59:18Jocko Willink?

  My kids say to each other, oh, you might as well just go out and volunteer for type two diabetes. Yeah, they get crazy. I know where they learned that from.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I know exactly where they learned that from. But it was just the kind, you know, like where

• 1:59:30Jocko Willink?

  My older kids do it to my younger daughter.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:34Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna get type two diabetes.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  Uh, the peer pressure.

• 1:59:36Jocko Willink?

  She's all like, huh, huh. She thinks she's gonna get it today.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's messed up.

• 1:59:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, it is messed up.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  Effective or ineffective, though, right? That's your thing?

• 1:59:45Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  No, but it, anyway, the point being, it is, it is effective. It's, I mean, you know, like how you say too, you don't have to be a dick about it. It's not a scolding. It's not nothing like that. It's a full on explanation, so they understand.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  Actually, contrary to that, it's the other end of the spectrum.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:02Jocko Willink?

  The reason I'm talking to you is because I care about you so much that I want you to be healthy.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:07Jocko Willink?

  That's the only reason I'm talking to you.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  You ever get, like, your parents say that, say those exact words, I do this because I care about you, meanwhile, they're yelling at you?

• 2:00:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And employers do it too. Bosses do that too. Doing this for your own good. Yeah, no, the first thing they do is they wanna jump down someone's throat. And then everyone's reaction's the same to that.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:26Jocko Willink?

  No one likes it. No one likes it. Whereas, if you take a different approach and you say, hey, Echo. You know why I'm talking to you right now? It's not because I'm mad at you. It's because I'm actually, I see nothing but potential with you. That's what I see. And when I, when I see that you're not making, like, you're not making many videos. It's not, it's not because I'm, I'm thinking to myself, oh, I want more videos. The reason I'm thinking is because I actually see how much potential you have. And you could really do some powerful stuff and have some huge influence. But. You're so right, Jocko. See, as opposed to, you better make more videos. Or else, I'm gonna have my kid do it.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Were you lazy, bro? Exactly. Then you'd be like, fine, have your kid do it. It won't be as good as mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So that's not what we're, that's not the game we're playing here. Yeah. You know? I do see a lot of potential in you. And I think you could make more videos. Thank you so much. So.

• 2:01:22Jocko Willink?

  You gotta watch out for obeying authority. You gotta question authority. All the time. And. You've, then, then he talks about people seeking career advancement. That's another big one. And it's another big one I say no to, right? There's such a much better way to get career advancement. And that is by doing a good job. Yeah. That's how you get career advancement. By. Instead of seeking career advancement, seek to do a good job, seek to make a difference, seek to do what is right. The career is gonna come in one form or the other. Now, might you get passed up? Might some other guy that tooted his own horn and took the credit? Might that happen?

• 2:02:05Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it might happen. You might, you might get delayed. But that guy's gonna continue to build that reputation. And, and the boss has missed it on the first round of advancements. So he got it. Maybe he even gets the second round. By the third round, they're looking at him going, this guy's a self-serving loser. We need to get him off the team. And by the way, we realize that the guy that's been behind all this work is Echo over there. So we're gonna promote him now. Now you're gonna win. Now you've got a really solid reputation. So you can't, but the, the, the, the idea of seeking career advancement, you see that in the military all the time. There's people that are just trying to get advanced, trying to get advanced, trying to get, don't care who's back they're stepping on. And I'm telling you, I saw, I saw some of those guys get advanced in, in my community. They advanced up through the ranks. They were stepping on people's backs to get there.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Their reputation eventually was so bad that it didn't get them propel, they didn't propel as far as they wanted to. The great guys, the guys that were really, truly just trying to do the best for the community, those guys got promoted and they would make it, you know, the furthest. Because their reputation was so solid. And everyone knew that these guys were doing the right things for the right reason, not so they could get promoted, but they ended up getting promoted.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Promotion is more of like a, like a eventuality.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's eventuality. Yeah, it's just like jujitsu. If you're just trying to get your belt.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:22Jocko Willink?

  And that's what you're trying to prove.

• 2:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:23Jocko Willink?

  That's not gonna work out well for you.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  Getting mad when another guy gets promoted.

• 2:03:26Jocko Willink?

  You might get your blue belt before some other white belt, cause you're, you know, showing off all the time.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:31Jocko Willink?

  But eventually you're showing off all the time.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  And the coach goes, hey, man, why don't you help everyone? Or the coach goes, hey, I see you, I see you're tapping a lot of people out that are the same level as you all the time, but you're not going with anyone that's harder than you, cause you wanna prove to me that you're tapping everyone out. Wrong move.

• 2:03:43Speaker 01

  You know what you might see sometimes? Is you know how like, you know, when you come up through the jujitsu ranks, you, you, you just, you just find a certain move, move or handful of moves? And you just, those moves, you get better at them quicker than others. Yeah, I think we all kinda are in one way or another.

• 2:04:01Speaker 01

  And so this is, this is what, if you're pursuing the belt, this is what you do when the instructor's around. Only do your good moves.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wanna look good. That's all you do, you know? And you do, and when you say it'll show itself later, you know? So what you, what can happen is you get your blue belt, you get your purple belt, cause like you show off to your instructors or whatever. And in the tournaments too.

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  I just realized, I just realized something about myself. I just had a rude awakening.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Uh huh. But well, what'll happen is later on, you ever get, okay, so this might be, it might have been a long time for you, but maybe not. So, okay, so I'm taking, I'm training with, uh, in, I'm sorry, I went to class, Jeff Glover's teaching the class. And Jeff Glover's like, hey, let's do this. And he does some crazy kinda advanced move. But it takes like, if you're an advanced person, you know how to, you know how to move your body in jujitsu, kinda in an advanced way, you can do the move, even though you've never done the move before, you know, that kind of move. So it was that kind of move. It was one where you gotta like, go between the guy's legs, lift up into heel hook, or whatever leg lock you choose. So, I don't do that move at all. And I've been training, I've been in this game for a long time. So, I go and I do

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  it, and not, I don't wanna say I was surprised, but like, I could do it, I could totally, and but Jeff was like, whoa, kinda like dang, cuz I'm a bigger guy too, you know? And that made me think of this kinda thing where some guys, they can be a black belt, and they'll say, hey, hey, show this move real quick, and it'll be a black belt, and they can't do it, because they've avoided that. And not to say that this is the case all the time, I'm just saying that's like an example of how you can avoid getting better, and only show off like XYZ to get you to that kinda next specific level.

• 2:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  Like a blue belt or whatever.

• 2:05:49Jocko Willink?

  This is a similar thing, maybe, but I realized when you were talking about this, what I'll do is both with Dean and with Jeff, if I do, if I'm doing something that they showed me, I'll like, I'll like call them out like a little kid, I'll be like, Jeffy, check this out, oh, here it is. Yeah, I'd be like, oh, you like that one? And you know what else? I do it with Dean, with my kids. When my kids are training, you know, I'll say, hey Dean, Dean, check, oh, look at that, look at that, he's gonna get it, you know what I mean? I'm kinda like all happy. I guess I'm just happy that I'm learning, or that they're learning.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's different.

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  But it's pretty cool when you can pull off what you just learned, right?

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:30Jocko Willink?

  That's cool. And it's cool for a teacher. I always am stoked when somebody does something that I showed them.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Big time. So I guess the difference is, if in fact this isn't even the difference, um, is why did you do that? It's not to get your kid promoted.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's not even to get me promoted, cuz I can't get promoted anymore.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  You kinda can't get promoted right now, yeah.

• 2:06:47Jocko Willink?

  So, I guess.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  I guess it's sort of like, maybe, maybe, maybe the, the negative aspect would be like, I'm looking for some credit.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  Pulling off the move, the little guy move.

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  Totally different.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Or whatever.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:00Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't think it's, I think it's pretty bad.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 2:07:03Jocko Willink?

  I think it's pretty lame. I think I'm pretty lame for that.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so watch out for that. Watch out for their career advancement. Don't let that be the focus of your life, man. It's not, it's not gonna make you. It's not gonna get you what you want. Now, again, are there instances where you play the game so that you can move up, so that you can have more control? Yes, I did that. Look, I went from enlisted to officer. That's the ultimate in, hey, I'm gonna play the game. I'm gonna get more, I wanna, I wanna be in charge of more stuff, so how am I gonna do that? I'm gonna be, I'm gonna skip all these ranks, I'm gonna become an officer. I did that.

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  I played that game.

• 2:07:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:07:38Jocko Willink?

  I was about my career. But I was about my career so I could make, you know, fifteen guys in a SEAL platoon happy.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause I was happy when I had a good leader in my SEAL platoon.

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  The other one he talks about here is this bureaucratization and specialization. Attenuating the sense of personal responsibility. This is another thing that we have to be careful of. Just because you're part of a system doesn't mean you should just, you know, blame the system when something goes wrong. You know, if you're working somewhere and something isn't going, hey, that's the way we do it. Hey, that's the way the system works. Hey, we can't change that. And I never accepted that as an answer.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you what. The, when you come up against that.

• 2:08:28Jocko Willink?

  You can't, the way you fight it when you come up against it is you build a relationship. Right? So. Any, you ever, you ever have a. You're trying to deal with some customer service or something? And you're getting that, sorry, we can't help you.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  And you go down to the store and like, hey, what's going on? Hey, Bill, I'm Jocko, man. I called you earlier. I just, I gotta get this thing resolved. Here's what's going on. You, you don't go down there and say, you need to take care of this. No, you say, hey, Bill, what's going on? Hey, I'm Jocko. Yeah, man, I really liked the piece of gear, but, man, it worked good. There was a couple of issues I had where they were trying to get them resolved, cause you know, my daughter's birthday is in two weeks and I need that. You know what I mean?

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Relationship with them.

• 2:09:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Let's get the bureaucratic, don't let them stay in their big bureaucratic system.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  We don't want to let that happen because then then the bureaucratic machine, then then they're not. They're not the ones that are offending you. It's the machine. They can't control the machine. It's not their machine. They're just part of the machine.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  You wanna, you wanna, this concept fundamentally is the same as this. You know, when you're in traffic, you know, and you're trying to get over.

• 2:09:33Jocko Willink?

  Kind of. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:35Speaker 01

  And you want to get in the lane, but you know, from the other guy's perspective or the other car's perspective. This car is trying to cut me off. This car. This car is going to get in my way, right? But you get your whoever you're riding with, all you gotta get them roll down the window. Make eye contact with a person and be like, hey, just wave at them or something. Look, I'm a person. You're a person.

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  We're not standing in line. We're not standing in line. We're just, we're all going in the same spot. That's what you feel. Yeah. We're not machines. You just give them that that hint of a personal element. I'll let you right in. They'll wave you in. You wave back. You guys are friends that and before, keep in mind, two seconds before that, you're pissed.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  You're like, this guy's about to get in front of me. And there's no reason to be mad about that, by the way. It's not like you're standing in line to get there.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's got to be somewhere too.

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  You're going in the same direction.

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  In the rush.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta put it on your deal.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  Same thing. Step out of the machine, man. The machine of trust. Step out. Hey, I'm a person. You're a person.

• 2:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Make the personal relationships up and down the chain of command throughout your company. Don't let the, don't let the finance department, right?

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, the department, the policies.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  The finance department shut us down on this thing.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Give me the name. Who did that? I'm gonna walk down there and see him.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, see what up.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  The marketing department won't give us anymore. Okay, cool. Let's find out who that is. It's not a bureaucratic, it's not a marketing department.

• 2:10:53Speaker 01

  No, it's Bill.

• 2:10:53Jocko Willink?

  That's a machine. No, it's Bill. Bill's in there.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:10:56Jocko Willink?

  And when you, when Bill knows what you're trying to do and knows that you are trying to make something happen. You make that connection. Now we're good to go. Bill's gonna take care of you. No reason to freak out. The other thing, finally, here is this, this idea of this peer group, this social collective. Peer pressure. We all know it exists and that's fine, but make it good. Right? Peer pressure is powerful. It's powerful. And the good thing is you get to control it. In both directions. You need to recognize it when it's happening to you in a negative way. And then you need to use it.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  In a positive way to help people do good things. Use peer pressure. Peer pressure is legit for making people do positive things. Big time. What you don't want to do is use peer pressure to make people do negative things. And there's a lot of that in the world. And I'll tell you why. There's a certain part of people that don't like to see other people succeed. Yeah. So they go, man, just come out tonight, dude. But dude, I gotta work in the morning. Dude, just come out. Yeah. We're just gonna get a couple of drinks. Yeah. Here's another one. Let's do a shot. You're always on that diet. Yeah. The people just. Hey, loosen up, lighten up. Yeah, they want to see. No. There's a, there's a certain part of people that want to see everyone else fail. Yeah. And if you're, you've got to pay attention to that yourself. Yes.

• 2:12:18Jocko Willink?

  You gotta pay attention to that in your own self. Because if you don't, you won't realize it. Yeah. But you're actually, I, I've seen people give other people bad advice. Because they're jealous. They're jealous. Certain programs. I seen a friend of mine was going for a certain program in the military. And he came to me, he said, man, I was gonna try this program, but a couple of guys are telling me I shouldn't. And I said, bro, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. They are jealous. Damn. They are jealous. They don't want you to do this program because it's gonna make you more successful. Go do the program. Huh. And he said, okay. And he did it. Jocko peer pressure. Yeah, that's, I want to give peer pressure of goodness, not of badness.

• 2:13:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and the thing is, I mean, I guess you could look at peer pressure in a way is, it's leadership. Whether you're standing up to it, or whether you're spreading the positive peer pressure, that's leadership. And that's what we're here to do, man. We're here to do, we're here to lead. And when you use that in a positive way, you can prevent this kind of, this kind of sick, sadistic, horrible, horrific events like this, like we read about today, from happening. I mean, it's just, it's, it's crazy that this, that this occurred. Yeah. And it's crazy that it, you know, even, even throughout the book, and it,

• 2:13:47Jocko Willink?

  it's just referring to the Jews, right? It's just referring to the Jews. The Jews, the Jews lined up, the Jews laid down, the Jews gotten, got shot in the back of the neck. The Jews, the Jews, the Jews.

• 2:14:01Jocko Willink?

  Let's remember that every single one of those Jews was a name, was a person, was Bill, was, you know, we do the same thing. We're putting them in a sort of big chunk of machinery.

• 2:14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:15Jocko Willink?

  That they're just, they're part of the product of what's happening over here. And

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  yeah, don't do it on either side.

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:24Jocko Willink?

  Don't let it happen on either side. Don't let it happen in traffic. Don't let it happen in your life. Don't do it.

• 2:14:34Jocko Willink?

  That's what leadership is about. It really is. And leadership, the thing about leadership is leadership is happening at all times. We, the minute you are interacting with another person, leadership is taking place. You're either being led, which is fine, or you're leading, which is fine. As long as you're going in the right direction. But if you constantly think, and you're leading yourself, by the way, of course, you're leading yourself. You're constantly leading yourself. But the minute you meet with someone else, there's a leadership situation happening. You're either leading that person or you're being led, and that's okay. It's okay to be led, as long as you're being led in the right direction. If you start seeing yourself being led in the wrong direction and you go with it, you're at fault.

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:19Jocko Willink?

  You're at fault. You can't blame that person. You went along with it. You're culpable for your actions.

• 2:15:29Jocko Willink?

  So again, I know it's a brutal, brutal topic to cover, and I'm sure we'll be back at it again at some point.

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  But

• 2:15:40Jocko Willink?

  let's not, let's not forget that these, that this happened. And that if we're not careful, it can happen again.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you get little things like in way lower levels where, yeah, that stuff happens all the time. You know, like little riots break out, you know?

• 2:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  Normal people destroying cars because that's kind of what everyone's doing, you know?

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  To one guy, it's like, hey, stop, we gotta stop. Like, okay, we stop.

• 2:16:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  The peer pressure thing, that's why people, you get a workout buddy, you know? Or you join, that's why CrossFit in a big way is like really, it's a good group thing. Because everyone's like, hell yeah, you know, like the cheer you want, you can't, in a way, you look forward to just linking up with the group and the group's talking about like, you know, doing good stuff and working out.

• 2:16:31Jocko Willink?

  And you're right. And as a matter of fact, there's a whole new phenomenon in the fitness world, which is basically all stems from CrossFit and they call it just group exercise, right? Hey, we got group exercise classes. Yeah, group exercise classes because hey, I want to work out with other people. I want to have, you know, Echo calling me up and be like, hey, you gonna make it to class tonight? I'm kind of feeling lazy. Come on, bro.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm going.

• 2:16:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, okay. I don't want to be weak.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:56Jocko Willink?

  You're pressuring me to be strong. That's good.

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  Yep, true story.

• 2:17:01Jocko Willink?

  So use that in a positive way.

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you ever, you ever been, well, you probably, well, yeah, you probably have. Come on, we can be honest here. You know the kind where you're like, okay, I'm gonna link up with whoever to go train or to go work out or whatever. And you're like, dang, I don't really, when the time comes, you're like, dang, I don't really feel like it. I, in the back of my mind, I hope that they call and cancel. I hope. And then they call, they don't cancel. They call to confirm. And you go. You didn't want to go, you go. At the end of the workout, you're like, dang, I almost didn't, I almost didn't make it today. Good thing, you know? That's common, man. That happens all the time.

• 2:17:42Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, people ask me about this a lot. You've got to recognize, you've got to start to memorize that good feeling that comes after a good workout.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:51Jocko Willink?

  So that you don't have to force yourself through it in anticipation.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Such a good way to put it. To memorize the feeling.

• 2:17:58Jocko Willink?

  Memorize the feeling of like, I memorize two feelings. One is I memorize how good it feels when you're done. And two, I memorize how bad it feels when you're weak and you say no. So that's a horrible, I hate that feeling. I hate that feeling of like, I didn't do it.

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:17Jocko Willink?

  It makes me feel like junk. Junk. I was just on the road and...

• 2:18:24Jocko Willink?

  It was like, don't do it. I just feel like, man, I squeezed in a couple workouts at night, pretty weak workouts, but just to get them done, you know what I mean? Just to move. The worst thing you can do is be sedentary. And I was moving during the day because we were in the water and whatnot.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit different.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you gotta get it done.

• 2:18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  So memorize the feelings. There's nothing worse than the feeling of I slept in.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, I guess there are worse feelings. For you, that's probably the wrong statement. I don't like the feeling of I slept in and now I'm behind the power curve.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's the feeling.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  I don't like that feeling at all.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you missed.

• 2:19:00Jocko Willink?

  Memorize that feeling.

• 2:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:02Jocko Willink?

  And then run from it. Speaking of memorized, are you gonna go over everything that everyone has memorized you saying at this point when you talk about how they can support the podcast?

• 2:19:11Speaker 01

  Sure. Actually, I'm gonna go in and in, yeah, I'm gonna go in at a different angle. I'm gonna say, speaking of peer pressure, because this is really what it is. This is a group. You peer pressure me, you peer pressure everyone else who listens. We collectively peer pressure each other. And this is what we're doing. We're working out. There's no reason not to work out.

• 2:19:31Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  Today. Nowadays, not I mean this day, today. Today could be your resting.

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  But you should work out today, too.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  You should have, yes. You should later even, if you haven't already. Anyway, this is what we're doing. We're working out.

• 2:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  If we have weight to lose, we know if we're overweight. We do. Even if we're like five pounds overweight. Think of like your ideal weight. Think of that. If you're not that.

• 2:19:54Jocko Willink?

  Seven hundred and fifty pounds. That's my ideal weight. When you roll with someone that's massive.

• 2:20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:02Jocko Willink?

  And you think, I wish I was this massive. I wish I was, you know, four hundred and fifty pounds, because then you just smash everyone.

• 2:20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that might get in the way in other aspects of life. Like, if you're four hundred and fifty pounds, that would mean what? How tall? Like, what, six eight?

• 2:20:19Jocko Willink?

  No, I would wanna be like eight foot nine.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so surfing is gonna be an issue for you.

• 2:20:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  So, okay, so kind of say goodbye to your current knowledge or your current schema of surfing. Say goodbye to that.

• 2:20:32Jocko Willink?

  Good point, good point.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  That's just one thing, man.

• 2:20:34Jocko Willink?

  Good point.

• 2:20:34Speaker 01

  There's other things. So you're just thinking jujitsu wise? I understand.

• 2:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu and just MMA. Well, you'd be out of the weight classes, though.

• 2:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so you'd have to fight in these weird offshoots, whatever. I'm just saying, look at the big picture.

• 2:20:46Jocko Willink?

  I'll just be. What I am.

• 2:20:48Speaker 01

  Actually, you know what, bro? Seven hundred fifty, bro, do you, bro? If you wanna be that big, that's your ideal weight, you go with that.

• 2:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Seven hundred and fifty pounds, eight foot ten.

• 2:20:57Speaker 01

  And that's really the point. The point is, you know your ideal weight, you do, not me. You know, I don't have an ideal weight for you. Maybe I do, but it has served my interest.

• 2:21:06Jocko Willink?

  You want me to weigh one hundred and twenty-two pounds?

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, you're right. Um, and be less mentally strong, but for everyone else, we all know how much we wanna weigh, or, you know, whatever, whatever. So this is what we're doing, peer pressure. We're gonna do that, we're gonna pursue that. We're working out, we are getting control of our ego, temper, and other various weaknesses. Also, to facilitate that, we're taking krill oil. If our joints are sore, that's what we're doing, we're problem solving. Ultimately, it's just one big problem solving thing, you know? So, look, joints are sore, krill oil, boom, joints not sore anymore, move to the next thing. See what I'm saying? So, krill oil from Onnit, you want ten percent off the krill oil?

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Save money, financial discipline equals financial freedom. Boom, we'll kinda put that right in the whole equation. Go to Onnit.com slash Jocko, ten percent off. And support the podcast, you know, we're all on this thing together, kinda thing, you know? Other stuff on Onnit. I took some new mood today.

• 2:22:12Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  I'm not necessarily in a new mood, I think I'm in the same mood, but I don't think that's what it is. I think it's more just, you know, balancing out your whole stuff.

• 2:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  I just took it 'cause it was there and...

• 2:22:24Jocko Willink?

  That's the kinda thing that I won't take.

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  You don't wanna be balanced, huh? You wanna be unbalanced?

• 2:22:28Jocko Willink?

  I want current mood.

• 2:22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm current mood.

• 2:22:33Jocko Willink?

  What if you're feeling angry? Good, then I'm good to go.

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  I'm fairly certain it's for brain health, you know? And I think the new mood, like mood part of it is more of like a, kind of a happenstance, kinda cool thing, like, you know? Anyway.

• 2:22:48Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  Took some of that, I have some of that, I'm down for that. There's a bunch of other stuff, performance stuff, you know? So, if you're like, hey, I'm getting after it, I want performance supplementation, that's what we're doing too. We're doing all this stuff as a group.

• 2:23:03Speaker 01

  So is Jocko. Our current leader.

• 2:23:08Jocko Willink?

  I think this is a group without a leader.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  Until someone tells them to stop, then we're all stopping. Anyway. Also, good way to support. And this is to support yourself and support the group, really, because, you know, okay, so this book, these books, all these books. We read these books. Sure, we listen to Jocko go over it and it's dope, but you know, you want to get the book, if you want to get the book and read the whole thing.

• 2:23:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm reading less than 10% of the books.

• 2:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:34Jocko Willink?

  5%.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  It's like a book report.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Although I might have gone a little bit crazy with Sydney Cherry last week.

• 2:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:40Jocko Willink?

  I wanted to, I just wanted to do just full on audiobook. Just start and I'll stop seven hours later. Only three and a half.

• 2:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it, so.

• 2:23:50Jocko Willink?

  Got some good lessons, though.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're all, they're all good lessons.

• 2:23:54Jocko Willink?

  How many people see, you know, podcasts, three hours and 27 minutes and go, come on, Jocko.

• 2:24:00Speaker 01

  Come on, yeah.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  And how many people, now actually, you know what they say? Come on, Echo. You just, you talked about, you talked about, you talked about supports for, for two hours and 27 minutes? Come on.

• 2:24:12Speaker 01

  Bro, it's not my fault, it's the machine. You know, I just did a small little part.

• 2:24:16Jocko Willink?

  Guilty, guilty.

• 2:24:18Speaker 01

  Anyway, if you want the books.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  Or one or whatever, uh, our website, JacoPodcast.com, there's a section, a page, if you will. Menu on the top says, books from podcasts. Boom, click on that, click through there, take you to Amazon, purchase the book. That's a good way to support. And you get the book. Boom.

• 2:24:39Speaker 01

  Um, also, yeah, if you're gonna do any other shopping on there, hey, feel free. That's a good way to support. In a solid way. And that's what we're all doing. Straight up.

• 2:24:49Jocko Willink?

  See, so now you're throwing this real heavy peer pressure on everyone.

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it is good peer pressure. You said, good peer pressure is good.

• 2:24:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, that is good, because we're not, you just, you're just helping. The podcast, it doesn't cost anything.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? Boom.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  And that's what we're doing. Also, what we're doing is subscribing. What were you gonna say?

• 2:25:08Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, continue talking.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go, I will. And so subscribe to the podcast, that's what we're all doing. I'm subscribed to the podcast that I'm on, you know?

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, obviously.

• 2:25:19Speaker 01

  So we're all gonna do it. Um, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. Also on YouTube, subscribe to that one. That's a good one.

• 2:25:27Jocko Willink?

  That's where you make all those videos.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  All the videos.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  You told me you're doing three videos a week now.

• 2:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:25:31Jocko Willink?

  That's if I have not seen that.

• 2:25:32Speaker 01

  Nah, three a week.

• 2:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Is this in the future?

• 2:25:35Speaker 01

  Podcast video, video format.

• 2:25:37Jocko Willink?

  You're counting, go.

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  I'm counting, it counts.

• 2:25:40Jocko Willink?

  So you're doing one podcast video and one?

• 2:25:43Speaker 01

  And then two excerpts.

• 2:25:44Jocko Willink?

  Two excerpts.

• 2:25:44Speaker 01

  Minimum, is what I'm saying.

• 2:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  That's kind of the...

• 2:25:47Jocko Willink?

  So we should have a lot of excerpts up there.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they grow every week, um, you know, so the, and the benefit to those.

• 2:25:54Jocko Willink?

  By the way, you need to make your excerpts shorter.

• 2:25:56Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause they're too long. A 12 minute excerpt's not even an excerpt. That's just another podcast. That's the same, that goes back to the same problem.

• 2:26:05Speaker 01

  It's essentially an alternate version.

• 2:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Edit them.

• 2:26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:26:09Jocko Willink?

  Get the meat.

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  Dang, that's a good idea.

• 2:26:12Jocko Willink?

  Amazing, isn't it? So just be like, boom, someone should be able to listen to it in 30 seconds and be like, oh, I got the, got the deal here.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, okay, so...

• 2:26:19Jocko Willink?

  The problem is with you is you enjoy the, you enjoy the arc of the conversation.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, see...

• 2:26:26Jocko Willink?

  If people want to hear the arc of the conversation, they just listen to the whole podcast.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Maybe I've been hanging around with you too long, because last week, the way you were fucking, you couldn't edit out just that whole, you know, 45 minutes or whatever. Same thing, you get into it.

• 2:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:39Speaker 01

  So part of that is a joke, but part of it is a series, so you can, you know how like, okay, I'm, I'm lis, I'm listening to your whole little segment, and I'm gonna cut it, right? I'm gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna cut it right here, and then your little follow-up comment is cool, and then maybe I say something, which is like, eh, whatever, I can cut myself out easily, but then your follow-up to me is kind of cool, I'm like, eh, that's important too, I should leave that part, and so it, it just turns into this thing.

• 2:27:00Jocko Willink?

  Next thing, you're 12 minute excerpts.

• 2:27:02Speaker 01

  Sometimes, whatever, that only happens one time.

• 2:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Those are Jocko Chicken McHalf Chicken Nuggets.

• 2:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Jocko McChicken Breasts with Fine Leg.

• 2:27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they're not McNuggets anymore, no. Actually, they are, but, you know, that's an exception. Sometimes they're 12 minutes, hey man, they're 12 minutes sometimes.

• 2:27:19Jocko Willink?

  The other thing we could do is, we could actually reshoot, like, re-record just the pertinent parts if you can't edit it out without like...

• 2:27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no, that's a step backwards, I think.

• 2:27:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm just making sure.

• 2:27:30Speaker 01

  It's repetitive, you know? Anyway, that's a good way to support, subscribe to YouTube channel, boom. Shareable stuff on there, in the event of the excerpts not being 12 minutes, in them, in the event of them being three minutes or so, you can share them. More shareable.

• 2:27:47Speaker 01

  In fact, I saw when I was like, right after I posted it. And then I think he was like, I don't Brady, maybe he shares it and then I watched it. So I mean, that's how shareable it is. I just posted it. He shared it and I watched it.

• 2:28:02Jocko Willink?

  You did it, cut it, edited it, posted it and then got shared back to you and you still watched it.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, technically it wasn't shared to me directly. Actually technically it was.

• 2:28:12Jocko Willink?

  You're a work.

• 2:28:15Jocko Willink?

  That's such a good excerpt.

• 2:28:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:28:18Speaker 01

  So good how I cut the beginning and the end of that. Anyway.

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Stop and start.

• 2:28:25Speaker 01

  Anyway, subscribe to YouTube. That's the point. That's what we're doing. Also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. jockostore.com. So what's on here is clothing items, if you will. New shirt out. Okay. So here's the thing. This is what we're doing. We're wearing Jocko Podcast shirt. That's what we're doing. That's what I'm doing.

• 2:28:50Jocko Willink?

  Peer pressure is thick today.

• 2:28:52Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, it's good peer pressure. Look, see this shirt Jocko's wearing right now.

• 2:28:56Jocko Willink?

  Even this has become a Jocko Podcast shirt because we now manufacture Victory MMA and Fitness t-shirts to stay old school.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  It's the Jocko uniform. Really?

• 2:29:08Speaker 01

  That shirt's on jockostore.com. This shirt that I'm currently wearing, jockostore.com. In fact, all the shirts are on jockostore.com.

• 2:29:18Jocko Willink?

  I, a guy at the muster had this t-shirt on in the morning PT and at first I was like, you know, I was like, oh man.

• 2:29:24Speaker 01

  Victory guy.

• 2:29:26Jocko Willink?

  And then I was like, oh, even cooler. He's not a victory guy, but he's representing.

• 2:29:30Speaker 01

  Representing, yep. That's how, that's what we're doing. Representing big time. And if you, I'm not saying buy a shirt. I never say buy a shirt. I'm saying jockostore.com, check it out. If you like one or more of the items on there, including but not limited to shirts, get something. There's also rash guards, hoodies.

• 2:29:54Speaker 01

  Kind of, I gotta replenish those, I understand. Uh, but some rash guards on there. And-

• 2:29:59Jocko Willink?

  The next hoodies are gonna be thick and heavy Alaskan style.

• 2:30:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:30:04Jocko Willink?

  Minnesota style.

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  You know what else think, you know?

• 2:30:07Jocko Willink?

  Montana style. Not, not-

• 2:30:09Speaker 01

  Not Hawaii style?

• 2:30:10Jocko Willink?

  Kawaii style.

• 2:30:11Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:30:11Jocko Willink?

  Kawaii, not Kawaii style.

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  Or we could have both, because look, you can't exclude the comma ina. You know what comma ina means? It means-

• 2:30:19Jocko Willink?

  The people.

• 2:30:21Speaker 01

  Technically, when you think about it, comma, ina, comma. Ina means land, so people of the land, yeah.

• 2:30:28Jocko Willink?

  I got a pretty good guess right there, didn't I?

• 2:30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. So anyway, you can't neglect those folks.

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, we need to make Hawaii style one and a, and a north northerner.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:30:39Jocko Willink?

  Style one.

• 2:30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the two sides of the spectrum.

• 2:30:41Jocko Willink?

  Thick.

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  Everybody wants to represent, or that's what we're all doing, you know? Representing. Um, anyway, yeah, some rash guards on there, like I said, the, okay, what I was gonna say is, yeah, Jocko has a shirt, and we mentioned it before, Jocko has a shirt, no? Well, technically, he designed a shirt.

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  Varying levels of acceptance on my end.

• 2:31:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's the Echo shirt. Some people call it the dang shirt, but it's the Echo shirt, there's some layers there, you might be able to figure them out.

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  Technically, there's more layers on this shirt than any other shirt, really?

• 2:31:17Jocko Willink?

  It might be the most layered shirt. Although, uh, and the fact that I made it is a layer to it, right?

• 2:31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, uh, um, but, well, I, my evaluation is it's interesting. It was actually impressive, the design is impressive. Like, the layers and stuff. Anyway, designed exclusively by Jocko.

• 2:31:36Jocko Willink?

  So now I'm a fashion designer too?

• 2:31:38Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:31:38Jocko Willink?

  Artist, fashion designer.

• 2:31:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:31:40Jocko Willink?

  Who would've thunk? I'm neither.

• 2:31:45Speaker 01

  Technically, you're both.

• 2:31:46Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm not.

• 2:31:46Speaker 01

  Technically.

• 2:31:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm not either.

• 2:31:48Speaker 01

  Anyway, that one's on there right now. Right this very moment. That one's on there. If you want to check it out. I'm not saying to buy it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying check it out.

• 2:31:55Jocko Willink?

  I think this shirt's gonna be popular with your head on it. By the way, it has Echo's head on it because there's a layer in.

• 2:32:06Speaker 01

  You gotta see it.

• 2:32:07Jocko Willink?

  You gotta see it? No, no, what I'm saying is though is somebody that, somebody that like doesn't want to just be forthcoming. Like for instance, a lot of the shirts that we have that have layers to them. You don't know exactly what, like know the darkness, right? No one knows what the hell that has to do with. The Jocko Podcast shirt, the one that says Jocko Podcast on it? Okay, well, you know, there's, there's, there's some layers there, but it's pretty, it's also pretty forthcoming what it means.

• 2:32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:33Jocko Willink?

  The shirt that I made for you with your head on it? No one's gonna have any idea what that is. It's so people automatically have some good layers there just by wearing that.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:32:44Jocko Willink?

  It's not, you, no one's gonna have any idea what this is. Why is that per, human's head on your chest?

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  You're saying external people.

• 2:32:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  Like people who aren't in the game.

• 2:32:54Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 2:32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:55Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 2:32:55Speaker 01

  People in the game, they're gonna get the whole thing and they're gonna be like, holy cut, Jocko is on a.

• 2:32:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like if you listen to a band and you just, you have a shirt that doesn't say the band name on it, but it's got the album cover.

• 2:33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  And people know. People that know, know. People that listen, know. Right? If they listen, they know. Same thing with this shirt. If they don't listen, they're not gonna know. If they listen, you're gonna get cred.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, true cred.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's a good one. Anyway, jockostore.com. That's a good one. That's what we're doing. Also, what we're doing straight up is in the, in the moments of weakness that we may or may not have. Some of us have them more than others, but what we do is we turn to psychological warfare. If you don't know what that is, this is what it is. Psychological warfare is an album with tracks.

• 2:33:41Jocko Willink?

  With tracks.

• 2:33:42Speaker 01

  Dig it. And these tracks, what they do is they give you a spot with any weakness or weak moments you have. So if you're waking up early every single day and that one day comes or whatever, that dang that alarm's or that my bed is extra comfy, I'm, you know, maybe I'll sleep in. You don't want to have slept in, but that's how you feel at that moment, that moment of weakness. Play one of the tracks, wake up and get after it. I don't use that particular track. I use the workout one, so it's different, but it'll help you through. It'll give you that spot. Just like when you're, and I said this before, and this makes perfect sense. This is what we're

• 2:34:24Speaker 01

  doing. And when we jump onto the bench and we take on lofty challenges on the bench press, we're gonna grab a guy to spot us. Not to say he's gonna touch the bar, not to say any of that, but we, we have a lofty challenge. So we got the, the spot to ensure our success. So to me, if you're not doing anything, if you're not pursuing anything, then this isn't for you. You just gotta get up and whatever, at whatever time you get up and go to wherever you do, whatever you do, come home, do your thing, which is cool. That's not what we're doing though.

• 2:35:00Speaker 01

  So I say while we do our big things, we're gonna get our spot. It's called psychological warfare. I'm not insane to use it. I'm saying, but if you need it, you got it to ensure your success.

• 2:35:12Jocko Willink?

  It's, okay, that's good. Thank you. Appreciate that one.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm done.

• 2:35:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, thanks.

• 2:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Uh, hey, also, uh, you can get Jocko White Tea on Amazon. Get some if you want some. Also, originmaine.com. If you're getting into jiu-jitsu, or if you're into jiu-jitsu already, and you need a gi or a rash guard, I recommend you go to originmaine.com. It's, uh, my brother, Pete Roberts, up there in Maine where they make everything, which is awesome. They weave the fabric, sew it, stitch it, embroider it, send it out. Gi's, rash guards, shorts, made in America. And, and yes.

• 2:36:03Jocko Willink?

  We are getting in league with Origin Maine, so there's a little bit of a perfect storm kind of brewing. Got somebody that makes something in America, something that I like.

• 2:36:15Speaker 01

  In your neck of the woods too, by the way.

• 2:36:16Jocko Willink?

  In my neck of the woods, so we're getting on the warpath with Origin Maine and we're gonna get after it. So, check them out.

• 2:36:27Jocko Willink?

  Then, Way the Warrior Kid. Make a kid's life better. Get him or her this book, so they can get better, faster, stronger. And before you give it to them, little advice, read it yourself. Uncle Jake has something for all of us, that's for sure. Also, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. I brought like a rough copy, I forget what they, there's some name that they call this. This will be my third book I published, I still don't understand the publishing, like they have certain words and stuff, they use terms.

• 2:37:04Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:37:04Jocko Willink?

  And they'll say, "We're gonna do this, blah, blah, blah." And I say, "What does that mean?" But, this is the book. This is the book inside the cover. So, a couple things. Does this have a flashy cover that's gonna attract, you know, people to buy it? No, it doesn't. It's got an all-black cover, flat. That's what it's got. Is it got some, you know, some interesting fluff in there for you to feel good about yourself? No, that stuff's not in there either. Does it have these incredible life hacks that are gonna teach you how to rise and fulfill your dreams through simple things that you can do? No, those aren't in there either. It's called The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. It's about discipline, and if you follow it, you're gonna find freedom. Pretty simple.

• 2:37:49Jocko Willink?

  There you go. If you're on YouTube, there's the book right there. Oh, what does it look like? Hard to see against the black background, cuz it's black.

• 2:37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's not, so you can see the cover. That's not what the book's for.

• 2:37:59Jocko Willink?

  No, no. Although the cover does kinda...

• 2:38:02Speaker 01

  You can see it.

• 2:38:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  It's actually pretty built, to be honest.

• 2:38:06Jocko Willink?

  That's that. You can, that comes out October 17th.

• 2:38:11Jocko Willink?

  The assumption is you might want to order it now so you get a copy when it first comes out. Otherwise, people will have discipline before you and that's not going to work out good for you. Extreme Ownership, of course, you have it. By the way, you have it, that's good, but get it for your team because that'll make your life easier if you want to do that. We also have Echelon Front Consulting, me, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke. Get your team aligned so your leadership can crush your enemies. And by the way, don't try and book us through a speaker's agent if you know what that is. If you know what that is, don't do it. Don't look online and find our literary agent and try and book.

• 2:38:54Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that. We have a company. It's called Echelon Front. Book through the company, [email protected]. Email that. That's how you get us to come and work with your company. The muster, we just got done with one. Next one is September 14th and 15th in San Diego. It is going to sell out. It's factual. It is going to sell out. It is factual. It is going to sell out because all three of the first ones have sold out. This one's going to sell out too. Register. Go to extremeownership.com if you want to come to it. If you don't want to come, stay at home. That's fine too. Whatever. Also, if you train jujitsu, or if you don't

• 2:39:34Jocko Willink?

  train and you want to start training, speaking of Origin, Maine, we're doing the Origin Immersion Jujitsu Camp up in Maine. Echo and I are going to be there training and cruising super hard. The, we'll be there the last day of the first session and the first day of the second session. The sessions are August 20th through 23rd for the first session and 24th through 27th for the second session.

• 2:40:03Jocko Willink?

  Come on up, we're gonna be there if you want to train some jujitsu. It's gonna be a good time. And what I like about it is that the muster, the muster is a tight schedule. From four o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night, 10 o'clock at night, we're, we're moving. This thing, we're gonna do what? Five hours, six hours of jujitsu a day?

• 2:40:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:40:24Jocko Willink?

  And then the rest of the time, what are we gonna do with the other 18 hours a day?

• 2:40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're saying total, right? Yeah.

• 2:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm saying two hours in the morning, two hours at lunch, two hours in the afternoon. I mean, maybe not training the whole time, but learning new moves, yeah, doing jujitsu, showing like, hey, can you go over this with me? Hey, I got a question for you. Hey, Echo, can you teach me that mountain escape that you got? Like, whatever, you know, those things that we're gonna do, we're gonna do that.

• 2:40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, so that's six hours. And then we sleep for four hours, so that's 10 hours, that's 14 hours. This 14 hours is gonna be just walking around in circles going, BTF, BTF. No, that's what we're gonna do is we're gonna hang out. So if you want to come, train some jujitsu, hang out, come to that camp up in Maine, it's gonna be awesome. We're gonna, uh, we're gonna have a good time up there. And until then, we'll be rolling in another place. Victory MMA, yes. Also, we'll be rolling on the interwebs. The Twitter, the Instagram, and that facey boochy boha. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink.

• 2:41:30Jocko Willink?

  And finally, thanks to everyone for listening to this podcast, which is brought to you by our military, who are out there holding the line against evil worldwide. It's also brought to you by police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and other first responders who make this country safe here on the home front. So we can enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Thanks to all of you in uniform for what you do. And the rest of you that are out there, leading,

• 2:42:12Jocko Willink?

  leading wherever you are and whatever you do, leading yourself and the people around you in the right direction.

• 2:42:24Jocko Willink?

  Forward. Toward the goal. Toward the light. Toward a better place.

• 2:42:34Jocko Willink?

  Setting the example.

• 2:42:37Jocko Willink?

  And getting after it.

• 2:42:41Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo. And Jocko. Out.