60: The Importance of Standing Up Against Evil, and its Heavy Cost. "The Rape of Nanking"

0:00:00 - Opening 0:14:06 - "The Rape of Nanking" http://amzn.to/2jU39A2 (Unspeakable Darkness) 1:15:21 - "The Woman Who Could Not Forget" by, Dr. Ying Ying Chang http://amzn.to/2kQ2d3Y 1:58:25 - Lessons from the books. Your Reality VS. Actual Reality. 2:12:01 - How to Get in the GAME. Support Stuff. Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, Amazon https://www.amazon.com/?&tag=jocko20-20&camp=216797&creative=498533&linkCode=ur1&adid=1DKYGWXQBV0KNEZ3MZZX&, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Jocko's Kids Book--Way of the Warrior Kid http://amzn.to/2kTXbiM, Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx and The Muster002 http://www.extremeownership.com 2:33:07 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 60 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  What I am about to relate is anything but a pleasant story. In fact, is so very unpleasant that I cannot recommend anyone without a strong stomach to read it.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  For it is a story of such crime and horror as to almost be unbelievable. The story of depredations of a horde of degraded criminals of incredible bestiality on a peaceful, kindly, law-abiding people.

• 0:51Jocko Willink?

  I believe it has no parallel in modern history.

• 0:59Jocko Willink?

  And that is a warning. That was written by a man by the name of George Fitch, who was an American in the city of Nanking, China. He was working for the YMCA in 1937 when the Imperial Japanese Army invaded.

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to tell you that that warning is not strong enough.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  And I know that many of you listen to this podcast with your children.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to tell you right now, this podcast, this episode is not for children. This episode is barely even for adults.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  And I'm sure that some of you will not make it through this podcast.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  And I almost decided not to do it.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  This podcast, this episode is going to review a book called The Rape of Nanking. By an author by the name of Iris Chang. And part of the reason that I decided that I had to cover this book is because of the story

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  that follows the story.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  And that is of Iris Chang, the author. A bright, beautiful, intelligent, successful, and loving woman who was consumed

• 2:53Jocko Willink?

  by darkness. And I will discuss her fate in a book that was written by her mother, Ying Ying Chang, in a book called The Woman Who Could Not Forget.

• 3:10Jocko Willink?

  And what happened in the city of Nanking is

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  it is beyond darkness.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  It is beyond evil.

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  It is pure savagery, wanton savagery of the highest order.

• 3:37Jocko Willink?

  And part of me thinks maybe it's best if it is forgotten.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  Maybe that's the best way to prevent it from happening again.

• 3:51Jocko Willink?

  But part of me knows that that is wrong.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  And the only way to learn

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  is to study and to understand. And to try and banish this from our memories to me.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  That leaves a door.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  Leaves a door open for something like this to happen again, somewhere, sometime.

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  But I want to warn you again.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  That there are parts of this episode that are extremely graphic.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't put it all in there, but I absolutely wanted people to understand that this is what happened. And I feel compelled to discuss it.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  For, for one, for Iris Chang, who in my mind sacrificed everything to tell this story.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  To help ensure that those who suffered are remembered.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  And also to ensure that the human race at large

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  has the knowledge, has the warning that evil exists.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  And that mankind is capable of becoming engulfed in that evil.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  And that man can act without mercy or remorse or the slightest shred of humanity at all.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  Go into the book.

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  To prepare for the inevitable war with China, Japan had spent decades training its men for combat. The molding of young men to serve in the Japanese military began early in life, and in the 1930s, the martial influence seeped into every aspect of Japanese boyhood. Toy shops became virtual shrines to war, selling arsenals of toy soldiers, tanks, helmets, uniforms, rifles, anti-aircraft guns, bugles, and howitzers. Memoirs from that time describe pre-adolescent boys waging mock battles in the streets using bamboo poles as imaginary rifles.

• 6:52Jocko Willink?

  Some even tied logs of wood on their back and fantasized about dying as human bomb heroes in suicide missions.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, I can tell you, I grew up doing all that stuff. We played war all the time, all the time. So, I don't find anything shocking about that.

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, Japanese schools operated like miniature military units. Indeed, some of the teachers were military officers who lectured students on their duty, on their duty to help Japan fulfill its divine destiny of conquering Asia and being able to stand up to the world's nations as a people second to none. Now, we're starting to get off course.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  They taught young boys how to handle wooden models of guns and older boys how to handle real ones. Textbooks became vehicles for military propaganda. One geography book even used the shape of Japan as justification for expansion. We appear to be standing in the vanguard of Asia, advancing bravely into the Pacific. At the same time, we appear ready to defend the Asian continent from outside attack.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  Teachers also instilled in boys hatred and contempt for the Chinese people, preparing them psychologically for a future invasion of the Chinese mainland.

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  One historian tells the story of a squeamish Japanese schoolboy in the 1930s who burst into tears when told to dissect a frog. His teacher slammed his knuckles against the boy's head and yelled, "Why are you crying about one lousy frog? When you grow up, you'll have to kill 100, 200 chinks."

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  Japanese Minister of Education declared that schools were run not for the benefit of the students, but for the good of the country. Elementary school teachers were trained like military recruits, with student teachers housed in barracks and subject to harsh discipline and indoctrination. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education emerged. It laid down a code of ethics to govern not only students and teachers, but every Japanese citizen. The Rescript was the civilian equivalent of Japanese military codes, which valued above all obedience to authority and unconditional loyalty to the emperor.

• 9:34Jocko Willink?

  In every Japanese school, a copy of the Rescript was enshrined with a portrait of the emperor and taken out each morning to be read. It was reputed that more than one teacher who accidentally stumbled over the wards, committed suicide to atone for the insult to the sacred document. So we've got a, that's 1890 by the way, 1890, so this is generations now, that this is being plugged into the, to the students' brains.

• 10:05Jocko Willink?

  And these things, you know, when, when we, when we talk about students, we talk about children, we teach them, generally,

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  freedom is the ultimate goal, freedom is the ultimate,

• 10:22Jocko Willink?

  the ultimate,

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  the ultimate thing to strive for, the ultimate thing to defend is freedom. And here they're getting taught that the ultimate thing was obedience to authority and unconditional loyalty.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, it was commonplace for teachers to behave like sadistic drill sergeants, slapping children across the cheeks, hitting them with their fists, or bludgeoning them with bamboo or wooden swords. Students were forced to hold heavy, heavy objects, sit on their knees, stand barefoot in the snow, or run around the playground until they collapsed from exhaustion. There were certainly few visits to the schools by indignant or even concerned parents. The pressure to conform to authority intensified if the schoolboy decided to become a soldier. Vicious hazing and relentless, and relentless pecking order usually squelched any residual spirit of individualism within him. Obedience was touted as a supreme virtue,

• 11:28Jocko Willink?

  and a sense of individual self-worth was replaced by a sense of value as a small cog in the larger scheme of things. To establish the sublimation of individuality to the common good, superior officers of older soldiers slapped recruits for almost no reason at all, or beat them severely with heaven wooden rod, heavy wooden rods. According to the author, Toshio, officers often justified unauthorized punishment, saying, "I do not beat you because I hate you. I beat you because I care for you." "Do you think I perform these acts with hands swollen and bloody in a state of madness?" "Some youths died under such brutal physical conditions, others committed suicide."

• 12:13Jocko Willink?

  "The majority became tempered vessels into which the military could pour a new set of life goals."

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  So this is complete, you know, militant raising of children. And what I want to note here, is anybody that thinks, you know what, that probably produced some incredible warriors, you're actually wrong. Did it, did it produce warriors? Yes, it did. But let's, let's remember that these warriors that were raised in this manner, when they had American soldiers and Marines that had to face them when they were in incredibly well dug in defensive positions, and the Americans had to take beach fronts and beachheads, the free-thinking American soldier proved to be the better.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Training was no less grueling a process for aspiring officers. Above all, the Japanese cadets were to adopt a will which knows no defeat. So terrified were the cadets of any hint of failure that examination results were kept secret to minimize the risk of suicide.

• 13:34Jocko Willink?

  So that's what, again, this was, this was going all the way back to 1890. So we've got 40, 50 years worth before we get into this, where this massacre takes place.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In the summer of 1937, Japan finally succeeded in provoking a full-scale war with China. So Japan was now engaging in a war with China. They went to Shanghai. The Japanese invaded Shanghai, you know, big giant city and they, they thought they were gonna have no factor, right? Because they're getting told all the time that they're the best and they're the, there's their, you know, the supreme warriors and all this. Well, going back to the book here, Japanese military, military leaders had boasted and seriously believed that Japan could conquer all of mainland China within three months. We got some arrogance going on here. But when a battle in a single Chinese city alone that was Shanghai dragged from summer to fall and then from fall to winter, it shattered

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  Japanese fantasies of an easy victory. Here, this primitive people, illiterate in military science and poorly trained, had managed to fight the superior Japanese to a standstill. When Shanghai finally fell in November, the mood of the Imperial troops had turned ugly. And many say, and many, it was said, lusted for revenge as they marched towards Nanking.

• 15:03Jocko Willink?

  So they're on route now. They had a hard time taking down Shanghai. They got vengeance on their mind when they're going into the city of Nanking. Back to the book, little was spared on the path to Nanking. Japanese veterans remember raiding tiny farm communities where they clubbed or bayoneted everyone in sight. But small villages were not the only casualties. Entire cities were razed to the ground. Consider the example of Suzhou, a city on the east bank of Taihu Lake. One of the oldest cities in China, it was prized for its delicate silk embroidery palaces and temples.

• 15:43Jocko Willink?

  Its canals and ancient bridges had earned the city its western nickname as the Venice of China. On November 19th, on a morning of pouring rain, a Japanese advance guard marched through the gates of Suzhou, wearing hoods that prevented the Chinese centuries from recognizing them. Once inside, the Japanese murdered and plundered the city for days, burning down ancient landmarks and abducting thousands of Chinese women for sexual slavery. The invasion, according to the China Weekly Review, caused the population of the city to drop from 350,000 to less than 500.

• 16:30Jocko Willink?

  But the worst was still to come. Now, there was a general that was sort of in charge of the Japanese that were heading to Nanking. His name was General Matsui. And he seemed to have some semblance of honor to him.

• 16:51Jocko Willink?

  And gave some pretty, pretty good, I would say benevolent type, as benevolent as you can be when you're going into war of orders. So here's one of the things that he proclaimed. Back to the book, "The entry of the Imperial Army into a foreign capital is a great event in our history, attracting the attention of the world. Therefore, let no unit enter the city in a disorderly fashion. Let them know beforehand the matters to be remembered and the position of foreign rights and interests in the walled city. Let them be absolutely free from plunder."

• 17:27Jocko Willink?

  He's given some pretty, like I said, about as benevolent orders as you could give. That was Matsui. Well, unfortunately Matsui gets sick and he can't be the leader. Although he kind of goes in and out of a leadership position as this is going on. There's a new guy that comes in and the new guy that comes in is actual royalty named Prince Asaka.

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  Now Prince Prince Asaka gets word, he starts to get to understand the situation that they're going into. And he gets told that, yeah, they're going to be, when they take Nanking, they're going to have about 300,000 Chinese troops to deal with. And they get some preliminary word that it sounds like the Chinese are ready to surrender. They kind of hear that intelligence. They have spies in there and whatnot. Back to the book. After Asaka heard this report, it was said that his headquarters sent out a set of orders under his personal seal marked "secret to be destroyed."

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  We now know that the message of these orders was clear. Kill all captives.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  And they actually do have a copy of an order that came out.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  And this was on December 13th, 1937, the Japanese 66th Battalion received the following command. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but here's parts of it. Battalion battle reporter at 0200 received order from the regiment commander to comply with orders from the brigade commanding headquarters. All prisoners of war are to be executed. Method of execution, divide the prisoners into group of a dozen, shoot to kill separately. Goes on to give some details about who's supposed to run this. And then it continues back to the book. The vicinity of the imprisonment must be heavily guarded. Our intentions are absolutely not to be detected by the prisoners.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  Every company is to complete preparation before 0500. Executions are to start promptly. By that time, an action is to be finished by 7:30.

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Straight up orders. They're gonna kill everyone.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  And it's very important to note here, they says, "Our intentions are absolutely not to be detected." So they were gonna make it very clandestine and keep the Chinese from knowing that they were gonna kill them all.

• 20:03Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "There was a ruthless logic to the order. The captives could not be fed, so they had to be destroyed." "Killing them would not only eliminate the food problem, but diminish the possibility of retaliation." "Moreover, dead enemies could not form up into guerrilla forces."

• 20:23Jocko Willink?

  So they have their orders. They go in and begin the operation. And here we go. Back to the book. "All this was easier to achieve than the Japanese had anticipated." "Resistance was sporadic. Indeed, it was practically nonexistent." "Having thrown away their arms when attempting to flee the city, as the Japanese closed in, many Chinese soldiers simply turned themselves in, hoping for better treatment." "Once the men surrendered and permitted their hands to be bound, the rest was easy."

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  So the Chinese give up their weapons and allow themselves to be taken. Not a good idea.

• 21:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, we're gonna go to a quote from a Japanese soldier named Azuma. "It was funny, yet pitiable, when I imagined how they gathered whatever white cloth they could find, attached it to a dead twig, and marched forward just to surrender. I thought, how could they become prisoners with the kind of force that they had? More than two Italians, and even without trying to show any resistance?

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  There must have been a considerable number of officers for this many troops, but not a single one remained, all of them having slipped away and escaped, I thought. Although we had two companies, and those 7,000 prisoners had already been disarmed, our troops could have been annihilated had they decided to rise up and revolt."

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't go through too much of this, but it was a chaotic scene when the Chinese realized what was gonna happen and as that indicated a lot of the senior leadership, they fled the city. And so it left these soldiers there now with no leadership. And what are they gonna do? And you know, the Japanese did psychological warfare on them and dropped leaflets that said, "Hey, if you surrender, you'll be treated well. We have rice for you." And that's what they did. They lied, of course.

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. When the Japanese military received orders on December 17th to kill prisoners, they proceeded with extra caution. That morning, the Japanese announced that they were gonna transport the Chinese prisoners to a small island in the middle of the Yangtze River. They explained to the captives that they needed to take special precautions to move, for the move, and bound the captives' hands behind their backs. A task that took all morning and most of the afternoon.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  Sometime between 4:00 and 6:00 PM, the Japanese divided the prisoners into four columns and marched them to the west, skirting the hills and stopping at the riverbank. After three or four hours of waiting and not knowing what was going on, the prisoners could not see any preparations for crossing the river.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  The corporal wrote, "It was going dark. They did not know that Japanese soldiers already encircled them in a crescent formation along the river and that they were in sights of many machine guns."

• 23:44Jocko Willink?

  By the time the executions began, it was too late for the Chinese to escape.

• 23:51Jocko Willink?

  Suddenly, all kinds of guns fired at once. Kuriha Richi wrote, "The sound of the firearms mingled with the desperate yelling and screams." For an hour, the Chinese struggled and thrashed about desperately until there were few sounds coming from the group. From evening until dawn, the Japanese bayoneted the bodies, one by one.

• 24:24Jocko Willink?

  And that scene took place over and over and over again because what they did is they indicated and then in that order if you missed it they separated the groups so they had them captured inside the city and then they took them in small units of thirty forty Chinese soldiers tied their hands and said yep we're gonna transport you and they did this all over the city at the same time coordinated and then took them out to different places outside the city and killed them.

• 24:53Jocko Willink?

  But it wasn't only the soldiers that they did this to. Back to the book after the soldiers surrendered en masse there was virtually no one left to protect the citizens of the city. Knowing this, the Japanese poured into Nanking on December 13th, 1937, occupying government buildings, banks and warehouses, shooting people randomly in the streets, many of them in the back as they ran away. Using machine guns, revolvers and rifles, the Japanese fired at the crowds of wounded soldiers, elderly women and children who gathered in the north and central roads and nearby alleys. They also killed Chinese civilians in every

• 25:33Jocko Willink?

  section of the city, tiny lanes, major boulevards, mud dugouts, government buildings, city squares. As victims toppled to the ground, moaning and screaming, the streets, alleys and ditches of the fallen capital ran rivers of blood, much of it coming from people barely alive with no strength left to run away.

• 25:59Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese systematically killed the city dwellers as they conducted house to house searches for Chinese soldiers in Nanking. But they also massacred the Chinese in nearby suburbs and countryside, corpses piled up outside the city walls, along the river, by ponds and lakes, and on hills and mountains. In villages near Nanking, the Japanese shot down any young man who passed under the presumption that he was likely to be a former Chinese soldier. But they also murdered people who could not possibly be Chinese soldiers, elderly men and women for instance, if they hesitated or even if they failed to understand orders which were delivered in Japanese language. And obviously, not every Chinese person spoke Japanese.

• 26:49Jocko Willink?

  So this is now just a full-on killing spree.

• 26:55Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna read a section here. There was, there was military war correspondents that were there from the Japanese military. And I will read, this one is from a, a military war correspondent named Yukio Omata. And he saw the Chinese prisoners being brought and lined up along the river.

• 27:21Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Those in the first row were beheaded. Those in the second row were forced to dump the severed bodies into the river before they themselves were beheaded. The killing went on non-stop from morning until night, but they were only able to kill 2,000 persons in this way. The next day, tired of killing in this fashion, they set up machine guns. Two of them raked across fire at the lined up prisoners. Rat tat tat tat. Triggers were pulled. The prisoners fled into the water, but no one was able to make it to the other shore.

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  Systematic murder of everyone is basically what we're dealing with.

• 28:17Jocko Willink?

  And when they got their momentum going on the extermination of most of the men,

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  they turned their attention to the women.

• 28:32Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Women suffered the most. Takakoro Kozu, a former soldier in the 114th Division of the Japanese Army in Nanking recalled. No matter how young or old, they all could not escape the fate of being raped. We sent out coal trucks to the city streets and villages to seize a lot of women. And then each of them was allocated to 15 to 20 soldiers for sexual intercourse and abuse.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  Surviving Japanese veterans claim that they, that the army had officially outlawed rape of enemy women. But rape remained so deeply embedded in Japanese military culture and superstition that no one took the rule seriously. Many believed that raping virgins would make them more powerful in battle. Soldiers were even known to wear amulets made from the pubic hair of such victims, believing that they possessed magical powers against injury. The military policy forbidding rape only encouraged soldiers to kill their victims afterwards.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  During an interview for the documentary "In the Name of the Emperor", Azuma Shiro, a former Japanese soldier, spoke candidly about the process of rape and murder in Nanking. "We took turns raping them. It would be alright if we only raped them. I shouldn't say alright, but we always stabbed and killed them, because dead bodies don't talk." Takakuro Kozo shared Azuma's bluntness in discussing the issue. "After raping, we would also kill them," he recalled. "These women would start to flee once we let them go.

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  Then we would bang, shoot them in the back, and finish them up." According to surviving veterans, many of the soldiers felt remarkably little guilt about this. "Perhaps when we were raping her, we looked at her as a woman," Azuma wrote. "But when we killed her, we just thought of her as something like a pig."

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 31:23Jocko Willink?

  Where this mindset comes from that permits this kind of behavior? I'm going to the book. "The Japanese soldier was not simply hardened for battle in China. He was hardened for the task of murdering Chinese combatants and noncombatants alike. Indeed, various games and exercises were set up by the Japanese military to numb its men to the human instinct against killing people who are not attacking. For example, on the way to the capital, Japanese soldiers were made to participate in killing competitions, which were avidly covered by the Japanese media-like sporting events.

• 32:09Jocko Willink?

  The most notorious one appeared in the December 7th issue of The Japan Advisor under the headline "Sublieutenants Race to Fell 100 Chinese Running Close Contest."

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  Sublieutenant Mukai Toshiaki and Sublieutenant Noda Tekishi.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  They were in a contest, friendly contest, to see which one of them will first fell 100 Chinese individual sword combat before the Japanese forces completely occupy Nanking.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  They're well in the final phase of their race, running almost neck to neck.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  On Sunday, December 5th, the score, according to Asahi, was Sublieutenant Mukai, 89, and Sublieutenant Noda, 78.

• 33:12Jocko Willink?

  And just to give some more context on this, these were just lining people up and chopping their heads off. That's what this was. Just lining up civilians and let's see who can get to 150 or 100 first.

• 33:32Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. A week later, the paper reported that neither man could decide who had passed the 100 mark first. So they upped the goal to 150.

• 33:43Jocko Willink?

  Makai's blade was slightly damaged in the competition, the Japan advisor reported. He explained that this was the result of cutting a Chinese in half, helmet and all.

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  "The contest was fun," he declared.

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  Another Japanese soldier talking about his experience. Tomi Nagashozo wrote, "We made them like this. Good sons, good daddies, good elder brothers at home were brought to the front to kill each other. Human beings turned into murdering demons. Everyone became a demon within three months."

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  In interview after interview, Japanese veterans from the Nanking massacre reported honestly that they experienced a complete lack of remorse or sense of wrongdoing even when torturing helpless civilians. Nagatomi Hakudo spoke candidly about his emotions in the fallen capital. Quote, "I remember being driven in a truck along a path that had been cleared through piles of thousands and thousands of slaughtered bodies. Wild dogs were gnawing at the dead flesh as we stopped and pulled a group of Chinese prisoners out of the back. Then the

• 35:13Jocko Willink?

  Japanese officer proposed a test of my courage. He unsheathed his sword, spat on it, and with a sudden mighty swing, he brought it down on the neck of a Chinese boy cowering before us. The head was cut clean off and tumbled away on the group as the bodies slumped forward.

• 35:33Jocko Willink?

  Blood spurting out into great gushing fountains from the neck."

• 35:39Jocko Willink?

  The officer suggested I take the head home as a souvenir.

• 35:45Jocko Willink?

  I remember smiling proudly as I took his sword and began killing people.

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  Few know that soldiers impaled babies on bayonets and tossed them still alive into pots of boiling water.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  They ganged raped women from ages of 12 to 80 and then killed them when they could no longer satisfy sexual requirements. I beheaded people, starved them to death, burned them, and buried them alive, over 200 in all.

• 36:21Jocko Willink?

  It is terrible that I could turn into an animal and do these things.

• 36:26Jocko Willink?

  There are really no words to explain what I was doing.

• 36:33Jocko Willink?

  I was truly a devil.

• 36:52Jocko Willink?

  Beyond those situations, torture was also completely common.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  And here's what the book says. "The torture that the Japanese inflicted upon the native population at Nanking almost suppresses, suppresses the limits of human comprehension." Here are only a few examples. Live burials. The Japanese directed burial operations with the precision and efficiency of an assembly line. Soldiers would force one group of Chinese captives to dig a grave, a second group to bury the first, and then a third group to bury the second, and so on. Some victims were partially buried to their chest or necks so that they would endure further agony, such as being hacked to pieces by swords or run over by horses and tanks.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  Mutilation. The Japanese not only disemboweled, decapitated and dismembered victims, but performed more excruciating varieties of torture. Throughout the city, they nailed prisoners to wooden boards and ran over them with tanks, crucified them to trees and electrical posts, carved long strips of flesh from them, and used them for bayonet practice. At least one hundred men reportedly had their eyes gouged out and their noses and ears hacked off before being set on fire.

• 38:21Jocko Willink?

  Another group of two hundred Chinese soldiers and civilians were stripped naked, tied to columns and doors of a school, and then stabbed by special needles with handles on them in hundreds of points along their bodies, including their mouths, throats, and eyes.

• 38:41Jocko Willink?

  Death by fire. The Japanese subjected large crowds of victims to mass incineration.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  A Japanese soldier bound Chinese captives together, ten at a time, and pushed them into a pit where they were sprayed with gasoline and ignited.

• 39:00Jocko Willink?

  On Taiping Road, the Japanese ordered a large number of shop clerks to extinguish a fire, then bound them together with rope and threw them into the blaze.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Japanese soldiers even devised games with fire. One method of entertainment was to drive mobs of Chinese to the top stories or roofs of buildings, tear down the stairs, and then set the bottom floors on fire. Many such victims committed suicide by jumping out of windows or off rooftops.

• 39:33Jocko Willink?

  Another form of amusement involved dousing victims in fuel, shooting them, and watching them explode into flame.

• 39:42Jocko Willink?

  In one infamous incident, Japanese soldiers forced hundreds of men, women, and children into a square, soaked them with gasoline, and then fired on them with machine guns.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Death by ice. Thousands of victims were intentionally frozen to death during the rape of Nanking. For instance, Japanese soldiers forced hundreds of Chinese prisoners to march to the edge of a frozen pond where they were ordered to strip naked, break the ice, and plunge in the water to go fishing.

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  Their bodies hardened into floating targets that were immediately riddled with Japanese bullets. In another incident, the Japanese tied up a group of refugees, flung them into a shallow pond, and bombarded them with hand grenades, causing an explosive shower of blood and flesh.

• 40:34Jocko Willink?

  Death by dogs. One diabolical means of torture was to bury victims to their waist and watch them get ripped apart by German shepherds.

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  Witnesses saw Japanese soldiers strip a victim naked and direct German shepherds to bite sensitive areas of his body.

• 40:54Jocko Willink?

  The dogs not only ripped open his belly, but jerked out his intestines along the ground for a distance.

• 41:02Jocko Willink?

  The incidents mentioned above are only a fraction of the methods that the Japanese used to torment their victims. The Japanese saturated victims in acid, impaled babies with bayonets, hung people by their tongues.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  One Japanese reporter who later investigated the rape of Nanking learned that at least one Japanese soldier tore the heart and liver out of a Chinese victim to eat them.

• 41:30Jocko Willink?

  Even genitals apparently were consumed. A Chinese soldier who escaped from Japanese custody saw several dead people in the streets with their penises cut off.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  He was later told that the penises were sold to Japanese customers who believed that eating them would increase fertility.

• 42:05Jocko Willink?

  With regards to the fate of the women,

• 42:12Jocko Willink?

  they don't know how to determine the exact number of the women that were raped in Nanking.

• 42:23Jocko Willink?

  But they do know that it was almost universal.

• 42:30Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the Japanese raped Nanking women from all classes: farmwives, students, teachers, white collar and blue collar workers, wives of YMCA employees, university professors, even Buddhist nuns, some of whom were gang raped to death.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  And they were systematic in their recruitment of women. In Nanking, Japanese soldiers searched for them constantly as they looted homes and dragged men off for execution.

• 43:01Jocko Willink?

  Some actually conducted door-to-door searches, demanding money and young girls.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Chinese women were raped in all locations and at all hours. An estimated one-third of all rapes occurred during the day.

• 43:20Jocko Willink?

  Survivors even remember soldiers prying open in the legs of victims to rape them in broad daylight in the middle of the street and in front of crowds of witnesses. No place was too sacred for rape. The Japanese attacked women in nunnaries, churches, and Bible training schools.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  Seventeen soldiers raped one woman in succession in a seminary compound.

• 43:48Jocko Willink?

  Old age was no concern to the Japanese. Matrons, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers endured repeated sexual assaults.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  A Japanese soldier who raped a woman of sixty was ordered to clean the penis by her mouth.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  When a woman of sixty-two protested the soldiers that she was too old for sex, they rammed a stick up inside her instead.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  Many women in their eighties were raped to death, and at least one woman in that age group was shot and killed because she refused a Japanese soldier's advances.

• 44:36Jocko Willink?

  If the Japanese treatment of old women was terrible, their treatment of young children was unthinkable.

• 44:44Jocko Willink?

  Little girls were raped so brutally that some could not walk for weeks afterwards.

• 44:51Jocko Willink?

  Many required surgery, others died.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  Chinese witnesses saw Japanese rape girls under ten years of age in the streets, and then slashed them in half by sword.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  In some cases, the Japanese sliced open the vaginas of pre-teen girls in order to ravish them more effectively.

• 45:27Jocko Willink?

  Even in advanced stages of pregnancy,

• 45:32Jocko Willink?

  did not render women immune to assault. The Japanese violated many who were about to go into labor, were in labor, or who had given birth only a few days earlier.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  One victim who was nine months pregnant was raped, suffered not only stillbirth but a complete mental collapse.

• 45:52Jocko Willink?

  At least one pregnant woman was kicked to death. Still more gruesome was the treatment allotted to some of the unborn children of these women. After gang rape, Japanese soldiers sometimes slashed open the bellies of pregnant women and ripped out the fetuses for amusement.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  During the mass rape, the Japanese destroyed children and infants, often because they were in the way.

• 46:41Jocko Willink?

  Eyewitnesses report

• 46:44Jocko Willink?

  describe children and babies suffocating from clothes stuffed in their mouths or bayoneted to death because they wept as their mothers were being raped.

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  American and European observers of the rape of Nanking recorded numerous entries like this one.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  "February 3rd, about 5pm, at Changsu Zhang, three soldiers came and forced a woman to throw away her baby. After raping her, they went away laughing."

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps one of the most brutal forms of Japanese entertainment was the impalement of vaginas. In the streets of Nanking, corpses of women lay with their legs splayed open, their orifices pierced by wooden rods, twigs, and weeds. It is painful, almost mind-numbing, to contemplate some of the other objects that were used to torment the Nanking women, who suffered almost unendurable ordeals.

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  For instance, one Japanese soldier who raped a young woman thrust a beer bottle into her and shot her.

• 48:10Jocko Willink?

  Another rape victim was found with a golf stick rammed into her. And on December 22nd, in a neighborhood near the gate of Tonging Men, the Japanese raped a barber's wife and then stuck a firecracker in her vagina. It blew up and killed her.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  Not all the victims were women.

• 48:39Jocko Willink?

  Chinese men were often sodomized or forced to perform a variety of repulsive sexual acts in front of laughing Chinese soldiers, or Japanese soldiers.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  At least one Chinese man was murdered because he refused to commit necrophilia with the corpse of a woman in the snow.

• 48:58Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese also delighted in trying to coerce men who had taken lifetime vows of celibacy to engage in sexual intercourse. A Chinese woman had tried to disguise herself as a man trying to pass through the gates of Nanking, but Japanese guards who systematically searched all passing pedestrians by groping at their crotches discovered her true sex.

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  Gang rape followed, at which time a Buddhist monk had the misfortune to venture near the scene, the Japanese tried to force him to have sex with the woman they had just raped.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  When the monk protested, they castrated him, causing the poor man to bleed to death.

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  Some of the most sordid instances of sexual torture involved the degradation of entire families. The Japanese drew sadistic pleasure in forcing Chinese men to commit incest, fathers to rape their own daughters, brothers their sisters, sons their mothers.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  A Chinese battalion commander stranded in Nanking for three months after the city fell saw or heard of at least four or five instances in which the Japanese ordered sons to rape their mothers.

• 50:12Jocko Willink?

  Those who refused were killed on the spot.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  His report is substantiated by the testimony of a German diplomat who reported that one Chinese man who refused to rape his own mother was killed with saber strokes and that his mother committed suicide shortly thereafter.

• 50:46Jocko Willink?

  Those who defied the Japanese were often found later with their eyes torn out, their noses, ears, and breasts cut off.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  As I said,

• 51:20Jocko Willink?

  this is pure evil.

• 51:26Jocko Willink?

  And

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what else to say.

• 51:46Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to the book here. "It's hard to talk about a bright spot in the horror that is the rape of Nanking, but if one candidate is surely to shine a light on the actions of a small band of Americans and Europeans who risked their lives to defy the Japanese invaders and rescue hundreds of thousands of Chinese refugees from almost certain extermination.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  The courageous men and women created the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone." So this is, you know, amongst, obviously, this just most sadistic and heinous evil, there were some Americans and some Europeans that lived and worked in Nanking. And you gotta remember, this is 1937, so it wasn't a world war yet. The, there was Germans there in Nanki, in Nanking, there was Americans there in Nanking. And when this started to happen, there was several of them who basically formed an area which said, "Hey, you know, this is a safe zone."

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  And one of them, interestingly, was a German and was a Nazi.

• 52:59Jocko Willink?

  So there's a Nazi who they ended up calling the living Buddha of Nanking. And so this, this individual, um, John Rabe was, he, he risked his life to set up this, the safety zone and actually, you know, he was a, he was a, like I said, he was a Nazi, but he had spent so much time in Nanking that he had all these Chinese friends and you know, according to this, to the background on him, you know, he's there in nineteen, he's been there for many years. And I don't know what year he got there, but he's not familiar with what's going on with the actual Nazi

• 53:40Jocko Willink?

  party back in Germany. He's disconnected. I mean, there's, you know, this is whatever. There's no internet. He's not watching TV. He doesn't know what's going on. So he was just sort of, sort of there and oh, the prominent party in Germany is the Nazi party. Oh, and, and I'm a diplomat, so I guess I'm a Nazi. And, but when he, you know, he sounded like he was a, a guy that was a benevolent guy. He actually went out into town and, and literally stopped rapes from happening himself. And what's interesting is, and this, this to me set up that, you could see what they thought of the Chinese people is that all he would do is go out and say, stop. And he, he had the Nazi armband or whatever. He had Nazi, the, the swastika. And when they saw that, they would listen to him. And so, I mean, he's so like, he was a white guy

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  and they, they clearly listened to him and were kind of afraid of him. And yet, you know, obviously they had zero, less than zero respect for the Chinese people. And so, so he actually wrote a letter as well to Hitler explaining what was going on. And you know, there's, there's, no one knows if Hitler actually ever read it. It sounds like he read it and ignored it. But one of the most interesting and important pieces of what John Rabe did is he, he kept a journal, a detailed journal of what had happened. So a lot of the stuff that, that I

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  just quoted, which I know is, is horrible. He was the guy, he's one of the people that, that wrote it down. And made sure that that it was going to be recorded. And actually, the the that diary didn't get really discovered and uncovered until much later, until really and and Iris Chang is the one that sort of popularized and and took this journal and made it into a real document that explained what had happened there. So that's, you know, again, this this John Rabe, you know, let's let's even in all that darkness, there was people that stepped up and spoke against it.

• 55:48Jocko Willink?

  Another one was a guy named by the name of Robert Wilson. And he was actually grew up in Nanking. And he was a Methodist missionary. But he had then left Nanking and gone back to America. He went to Princeton and then he went to Harvard Medical School. And when he got done with all of the schooling, instead of staying in America, he went back to Nanking to become a surgeon in Nanking. And he was him, along with John Rabe, these were the guys that went out and set up this protective zone and did all kinds of, you know, it's it's sort of like a Schindler's List scenario. No, they were helping soldiers get rid of their papers and give them clothes. They didn't look like Chinese soldiers.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  Sheltering the women, bringing, setting up places where the women could hide in the attics of the buildings. That's what they were doing. And it's the only thing that's, well, I guess it's not different, but you know, it's different in the fact that they could get away with it because we weren't at war with the Japanese. And so this guy Wilson was was a surgeon. So not only was he trying to protect people, he was doing surgery on them all the time, trying to get them to, trying to save them from these devastating wounds that they had.

• 57:04Jocko Willink?

  He also kept a really detailed diary, which again, these, these, and this is, you know, part of the whole kind of genesis of this book is that, and I'll get to this later, but the, you know, you've heard of like Holocaust deniers, oh, the Holocaust didn't happen. Well, it's the same thing with this event. People say, oh, it wasn't that bad. You know, it wasn't that big of a deal that, well, you know, there was some killing. So there was people that said that, you know, some Japanese nationalists had said, oh, that didn't, it wasn't really that bad. It was provoked or whatever they're gonna say. And these documents, these, these documents that corroborated all this information were truly important.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book here, "One of the worst scenes Nielsen saw, Wilson saw in Nanking, a scene he would remember for the rest of his life, a massive gang of, a massive gang rape of teenage girls in the street. A group of young women between the ages of 15 and 18 were lined up by Japanese and then raped in the dirt, one after the other, by an entire regiment. Some hebringed and died while others killed themselves shortly afterwards. But the scenes in the hospitals were even more horrifying than those in the streets. Wilson was mortified by the women who came to the emergency room with their bellies ripped open, by the charred and horribly disfingered men whom the Japanese tried to burn alive,

• 58:32Jocko Willink?

  and by numerous other horrors he had barely had time to describe on paper.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  He told his wife that he would never forget a woman whose head was nearly cut off, teetering from a point on her neck. The morning came, this morning, this is quote, "This morning, another woman came in a sad plight and with a terrible story," a hospital volunteer wrote of this woman in his diary in January 3rd, 1938. She was one of the five women whom the Japanese soldier had taken to one of their medical units to wash their clothes by day and be raped by night. Two of them were forced, the two of them were forced to satisfy from 15 to 20 men and the prettiest one as much as 40 each night."

• 59:20Jocko Willink?

  This one who came to us had been called off by three soldiers into an isolated place where they attempted to cut off her head. The muscles of the neck had been cut, but they failed to sever the spinal cord. She feigned death but dragged herself to the hospital, another of the many to bear witness to the brutality of the soldiers.

• 59:46Jocko Willink?

  So, Wilson just saw complete horrors, then back to the book. He operated for free because few patients had money to pay him, but the surgeries exacted a terrible price on his own health. In the end, his family believes that only his faith as a devout Methodist, combined with his love for China, gave him the courage to survive the rape of Nanking.

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  Another one of these Europeans, in this case, American, a Westerner I should say, was Vilhelmina Votren, or Minnie Votren as they called her, as by occupation, head of the Education Department Dean of Studies at Ginling Women's Arts and Science College, was one of the few Western women in the city during the first few weeks of the Nanking massacre. Years later, she would be remembered not only for her courage in protecting thousands of women from Japanese soldiers, but also for the diary she kept, a diary that some historians believe will eventually be recognized, much like the Diary of Anne Frank, for its

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  importance in illuminating the spirit of a single witness during the Holocaust of War.

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  Votren, the daughter of a blacksmith, was 51 years old in 1937, raised in the tiny farming community of Secor, Illinois. She went to live with neighbors when her mother died. Despite the impoverishment of her childhood, she was able to work her way through school, graduating with honors in 1912 from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  So, just again, a Westerner, in this case, an American. And she had the opportunity to maybe escape, but she stayed in Nanking. Back to the book, with most of the faculty gone from Nanking, most had abandoned their homes to flee to cities like Shanghai, Shenkou, and Shashwan. Votran was now the acting head of the institution. She labored to prepare for the campus for female refugees and to evacuate wounded soldiers from the area. To disguise their identities, she burned their military papers and garments in the college incinerator. Under her direction, furniture was moved into attics, safes were emptied, dorms were cleaned, and valuables were wrapped in oil paper and hidden.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, posters, signs, and armbands for the Nanking Safety Zone were created and distributed among the volunteers.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  Here's talking about a specific day. The following day, December 17, 1937, was even worse. The migration of women into Gengling only intensified as the Japanese soldiers flooded the city. "What a heartbreaking sight," Votran wrote. "Weary women, frightened girls trudging with children and bedding in small packages of clothes. If only someone had time to write the story of each refugee who came in," she thought, "especially the stories of the girls who had blackened their faces and cut their hair." As she accommodated the stream of wild-eyed women, she heard stories of Japanese raping girls as young as 12 and women as elderly as 60, or raping pregnant women at Bayonette Point.

• 1:03:25Jocko Willink?

  And...

• 1:03:30Jocko Willink?

  The

• 1:03:33Jocko Willink?

  sick and depraved and disgusting and horrific stories go on and on and on. And the brutality, page after page after page of diary entries and quotes and witness accounts.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  And then pictures.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  There is pictures in the book.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  And the pictures of severed heads and Chinese bound to poles being bayoneted to death. And pictures of others being beheaded and pictures of giant pits filled with bodies and images of hundreds and hundreds of bodies and entangled masses on the banks of the Yangtze River.

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  It's

• 1:04:25Jocko Willink?

  it's it's too much for the mind to comprehend. It really is. It's almost too much to understand.

• 1:04:32Jocko Willink?

  And so what we do

• 1:04:35Jocko Willink?

  is we package it all up. Right? And we give it a name. A massacre.

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  Or an atrocity.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  And I'm sure you could tell, I mean, even as I'm sitting here reading this, I'm gone. I'm just numb.

• 1:05:01Jocko Willink?

  But we

• 1:05:04Jocko Willink?

  have to remember that every one of those people

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  tortured, raped, and killed was a person.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  A person like your brother, or like your sister, or like your mom, or like your dad.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Or a person like your son or your daughter.

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  A person like you.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  And maybe you can get a hold of that.

• 1:05:51Jocko Willink?

  But what's in some ways even harder to grasp is the Japanese soldiers.

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  That they were people.

• 1:06:08Jocko Willink?

  And yes, they were certainly monsters. Vile. And despicable and completely devoid of feelings, but even so, even though they were monsters.

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  They were human monsters.

• 1:06:29Jocko Willink?

  And they too had mothers and fathers and sons and daughters and yet they did this.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  And the fact that what happened at Nanking was so brutal and so beyond comparison with anything that ever happened.

• 1:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Was one of the things that almost caused it to be forgotten.

• 1:07:06Jocko Willink?

  And that, that supreme level of brutality lasted about six weeks. And eventually that morphed into an occupation of Nanking by the Japanese and they ruled with an iron fist, of course, and they stole and they plundered and they abused locals and they continued to rape, which they actually institutionalized and eventually became, you've heard the term, comfort women.

• 1:07:42Jocko Willink?

  And they gave out opium freely to and save people, just like happens in this day and age, people become slaves to drugs.

• 1:07:56Jocko Willink?

  And it stayed in that occupied state for

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  about eight years until finally, almost as quickly as it began,

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  it ended.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm going back to the book.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  The end of Nanking's ordeal came in the last, came at last in the summer of 1945.

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  On August 6th, 1945, the United States dropped an untested uranium bomb on Hiroshima, Japan's eighth largest city, killing 100,000 of its 245 people, 245,000 people on the first day.

• 1:08:43Jocko Willink?

  When the Japanese surrender was not forthcoming, the Americans dropped on August 9th, a second plutonium-type bomb on the Japanese city of Nagasaki.

• 1:08:55Jocko Willink?

  Less than a week later, on August 14th, the Japanese made the final decision to surrender.

• 1:09:04Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese remained in the former capital of China until the day of the surrender, then quickly left the city. Eyewitnesses reported that Japanese soldiers could be seen drinking heavily or weeping in the streets. Some heard rumors of unarmed Japanese men being forced to kneel by the side of the road to be beaten by local residents. Retaliation against the Japanese garrison appears to be, to have been limited, however, because many residents hid at home during this chaotic time, too fearful to even celebrate the news of a Japanese defeat.

• 1:09:39Jocko Willink?

  The evacuation was swift, and there was no mass persecution or imprisonment of Japanese soldiers. One Nanking resident recalls that she stayed in her house for weeks after the Japanese surrendered, and when she reemerged, they were gone.

• 1:09:57Jocko Willink?

  And so it was over.

• 1:10:02Jocko Willink?

  And there were work some some level of war crime trials. And there were some executions.

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  Mainly of the highest profile officers. Prince Osaka, who had given that order to kill all captives. He avoided prosecution. The scale of the massacre was downplayed. And the reason that there's a bunch of reasons of why the scale of the rape of Nanking got downplayed, one of them being that the now Chinese Communist state was actually trying to build relationships with post-war Japan. So. The massacre was quietly buried and now you had the Chinese people were now in a Communist state and there wasn't much speaking out to do.

• 1:10:56Jocko Willink?

  And the Japanese downplayed the horrors. As saying it was a, you know, just another incident of war.

• 1:11:06Jocko Willink?

  And some Japanese officials were quoted as saying it's a story made up by the Chinese. It's tarnished the image of Japan, but it was a lie.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  And they said things like, I think the Nanking massacre is a lie.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  The women that were raped were labeled as comfort women and licensed prostitutes.

• 1:11:26Jocko Willink?

  And many Japanese officials say that what happened in Nanking was just a part of war.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  And there's a really clear example of downplaying. Not only the rape of Nanking, but of the war in general. And they put this some of this in the book.

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  And they're talking about the the Japanese education. System. Here we go back to the book, the Japanese, the entire Japanese education system suffers from selective amnesia for not until 1994, where Japanese schoolchildren taught that Hirohito's army was responsible for the deaths of at least 20 million allied soldiers and Asian civilians during World War Two.

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  In the early 1990s, a newspaper article quoted a Japanese high school teacher who claimed that his students were surprised to learn that Japan had been at war with the United States. The first thing they wanted to know was who had won.

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  In 1977, the Ministry of Education reduced a section on World War II within a standard history book of several hundred pages to only six pages, which consisted mainly of pictures of American firebombing of Tokyo, a picture of the ruins of Hiroshima, and a tally of Japan's war dead.

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  The text neglected to mention the casualties on the other side, Japanese war atrocities, or the forced evacuations of Chinese and Korean prisoners to labor camps in Japan.

• 1:13:03Jocko Willink?

  Much of the censorship might have gone unchallenged had it not been for the efforts of one brave crusader. In 1965, the Japanese historian Enega Saburo sued the Japanese government. This lawsuit was the beginning of a legal battle that would span three decades and gain the backing of thousands of sympathetic Japanese followers.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  The ministry interfered with Enega's attempts to document the Nanking massacre for schoolchildren. For example, in his textbook manuscript, Enega wrote,

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  he wrote this, quote, "Immediately after the occupation of Nanking, the Japanese army killed numerous Chinese soldiers and citizens. This incident became known as the Nanking massacre." Now, when his book got checked by the examiner, the examiner commented, quote, "Readers might interpret this description as meaning that the Japanese army unilaterally massacred Chinese immediately after the occupation. This passage should be revised so that it is not interpreted in such a way."

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  And here's what the passage eventually got changed to. While battling the fierce resistance of the Chinese Armed Forces, the Japanese occupied Nanking and killed numerous Chinese soldiers and civilians. This incident came to be known as the Nanking massacre. That a statement, end quote, that a statement might have been satisfied, that statement might have satisfied textbook censors as a compromise between Inegua's argument and the ministry's position on the massacre. Unfortunately, the statement is simply not true because it implies that the massacre occurred in the heat of battle.

• 1:14:52Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, the examiner demanded that Inegua delete his description of the rape itself, claiming that the violation of women is something that has happened on every battlefield in every era of human history. This is not an issue that needs to be taken up with respect to the Japanese Army in particular. Even the word aggression was deemed taboo. Aggression, the censors wrote, is a term that contains negative ethical connotations.

• 1:15:24Jocko Willink?

  And that spirit, that you can see very clearly, that spirit of denial it carried on, which is why when this book came out, this book, The Rape of Nanking, when it came out, there were still Japanese nationalists that were staunchly against it. But Iris Chang, who researched intently and wrote with passion, she gave it all, right? She was a daughter of Chinese-American immigrants and her, her parents, by the way, had connections to Nanking and had escaped there.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  And both her parents had made it to America and become college professors. And Iris was compelled to tell this story.

• 1:16:20Jocko Willink?

  But like I said in the beginning, she was so close to this story that it took a toll of its own.

• 1:16:28Jocko Willink?

  And she was a writer, obviously. She got her bachelor's degree in journalism and eventually a master's in writing from Johns Hopkins University. And there's actually a book that's written about Iris. And the book is written by Iris's mother, whose name is Dr. Ying Ying Chang. And the book is called The Woman Who Could Not Forget.

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna bring you through some portions of this book. So this book, again, this is about Iris Chang. And it's written by her mother.

• 1:17:13Jocko Willink?

  This is how she got. This is how she decided she was gonna write about this.

• 1:17:19Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. Quote, "Although Iris talked to us about her many book ideas for her next book while she was writing her first book, her decision to write The Rape of Nanking came all of a sudden in December 1994. As Iris told us, and as described in the book, she made up her mind to write about this most atrocious chapter of history when she was attending a conference in California on December 13, 1994.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  At the conference, there was a photo exhibition of the war, of the war crimes committed in China in the 1930s, taken when the Japanese army invaded Chinese territory. Iris wrote in her book, "Though I had heard so much about the Nanking massacre as a child, nothing prepared me for these pictures. Stark black and white images of decapitated heads, bellies ripped open, and nude women forced by their rapists into various pornographic poses, their faces contorted into unforgettable expressions of agony and shame." And she continued, "In a single blinding moment, I recognized the fragility of not just life, but the human experience itself."

• 1:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Later, she told us in a telephone update that she simply must write about the Rape of Nanking for her next book. It was a moral obligation and it would be justice for the victims as well. In 1998, after The Rape of Nanking had been published, one Japanese reporter interviewed Iris and asked her, "Why did you decide to write this book?" Iris replied, "When I was a little girl, my parents shocked me with the story of the Rape of Nanking. They told me that the Japanese Imperial Army massacred thousands of civilians in the capital of China and butchered even small children. This left a powerful impression on me and I went to local libraries to learn more details, but I couldn't find a shred of information

• 1:19:10Jocko Willink?

  on the subject. There was nothing in my local school libraries, or public city libraries, or in my world history textbooks. Still worse, my teachers were completely ignorant of this event." The event remained a question mark in my mind for years until I saw an exhibit of photographs on the subject in 1994. The horror of those photographs inspired me to write the book.

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  So that's how Iris got involved in writing the book and as a writer, luckily, she was also a prolific letter writer. And I'm going to quote a bunch of her letters because her mother saved a bunch of her letters. And here is one that kind of describes, I think it's a good insight into what her personality was like when she was actually writing the book. This was a letter to her mom about what she was doing on a day-to-day basis as she's writing this book. And this was her second book. So she'd already written one book. It had done okay, but this one was her, you know, her current project. And here's what she said about it. Quote, "On a typical day, I would rise between 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. and take the bus to Silver Spring Metro Station. Fortunately, there was a bus stop directly across from Lee's

• 1:20:24Jocko Willink?

  house. The trip to the National Archives took about 45 minutes on public transportation, and the building was open by 8:45 a.m. I spent my mornings in the military reference branch of the Archives on the 13th floor." Looking through finding aids and filling out cards to request boxes from different collections of papers. Dozens of boxes would be pulled from the shelves, placed on carts and made available to me in the second floor reading room, which stayed open until 9:00 PM on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays. I was usually there in the afternoons and evenings, scanning documents, tagging the ones that pertained to the Nanking massacre, and Xeroxing them as quickly as possible.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  So she's digging deep into this book, doing massive amount of research, and, you know, research back then was infinitely harder than it is now, because we have the internet. Now, as she began, she assembled all this information and she was starting to speak about it, starting to write some articles about it before the book came out. And she was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury News, which was a big newspaper up in the South Bay area of, you know, South Bay, San Francisco. And she, when she got done with that interview, she started getting a little bit of recognition. So here's a letter to her mom. Dear Mom, here's the latest exciting news.

• 1:21:48Jocko Willink?

  I shall be the master of ceremonies for what I believe will be the biggest Rape of Nanking Conference ever. The event will take place at Stanford University during the first weekend of December. Hundreds of people from more than 50 activist organizations all over the globe will be there, as well as representatives from all major news media organizations of California, China, and Japan. The goal of the three-day affair is to discuss legal strategy. How can we seek reparations for the victims through international law and UN resolutions? How can we gather evidence of atrocities for lawsuits? What methods should we use to force the Japanese to accept responsibility for its past misdeeds?

• 1:22:32Jocko Willink?

  So she's in the game. She's getting after it. She's starting to get some leadership positions in here and starting to get some recognition. Now, as she's continued to work, here's another letter to her mom. Dear mom, thank you for your inspirational email. I've been working on my book all week and feel more confident about my material. The sections of the book are so short that I organize each chapter as I would a speech. Thinking of the chapters as speeches forces me to distill each idea into a tiny, hard gem. Lately, I've been reading so many of the world's classic speeches for inspiration. They are breathtaking in their power and so

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  much more pungent than prose. In the evenings, when I read the speeches of Napoleon, or Clarence Darrow, or Winston Churchill, I feel engaged in actual conversation with them. Words are the only way to preserve the essence of a soul. What excites me about speeches is that even after the speakers are dead and buried, their spirit lives on. To me, this is true religion, the best form of life after death. This is the first time I have ever devoted much attention to speeches. My previous reading had only consisted mainly of essays, plays, novels,

• 1:23:58Jocko Willink?

  and poetry. Love, Iris. So it's pretty cool that you, first of all, I love that letter because she's recognizing the power of speech and she's realizing that what she's doing as an author is, that's her, that's her mark that she's going to leave on the world. And it's very interesting that Ying Ying Chang is also an academic. She's, you know, obviously a really smart person, and they're able to have these sort of intellectual conversations in letters. And they're all a really good insight into what Iris's mind, what was going through Iris's mind as she did this. Now, the book comes out, there's, it doesn't like jump out of the gates, but

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  as it comes out, there's a little bit of controversy about it, and there's starting to be some articles about it, and some interviews, and she's getting some interviews, and the book starts to get some good traction.

• 1:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. On January 14th, she flew to Washington for a TV interview with PBS. At the San Francisco Airport, she left a telephone message for us and said that she'd gotten a call from her publisher and that her book was number 15 on the New York Times Bestsellers list. Her voice told us she was weeping. I'm sure they were tears of joy. Xiao Jin, which is the dad, and I were jubilant. We could not contain our excitement for many days. In the next phone call, we said, Iris, you've made it. So, book hits the New York Times Bestseller. That's a game changer for Iris.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. On January 28th, Iris called us with excitement and said that Laurel Cook, her publicist, and Jack McEwen, the CEO, had called her in the afternoon to tell her that her book was up to number 11 on the New York Times list, her highest spot yet, only two weeks after first making the list. When they called, she could hear wild cheering, whistling, and clapping in the background. She was overjoyed. So, it's like the big, the big thing is, as a writer, is to make the New York Times list. And, and, and her parents understand that too, because they're academics and, you know, they're, they're super stoked for Iris.

• 1:26:14Jocko Willink?

  Now with the success, starts to come some stress. And that starts to reveal itself. Here's another letter that she wrote. Dear Mom, I'm sorry that I sounded so rushed when you called me at Miriam's home. Sometimes I wonder if I've offended a lot of old friends in the last few months by not returning emails, phone calls, and letters. Perhaps many people believe I've been corrupted already. It's true that I've neglected my loved ones for the last few months. I feel ashamed that I haven't yet brought, bought you a Mother's Day gift, or even a card. Only this note that I'm hastily writing from my laptop computer perched up on a bed in Diana Zuckerman's house.

• 1:27:00Jocko Willink?

  How I wish you could have been there during the Woman of the Year ceremony. I told you, I told the audience how you inspired me over the years, how you served as my first role model. So, she's got another big award, Woman of the Year, right? Please forgive me. I love you dearly, even though I haven't found the time to talk to you in the last few weeks. And in a few weeks, we'll all be reunited and the book tour will finally be over. I feel like a soldier returning from a six-month war. Love, Iris.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  So she's a person that feels guilt, you know, and the idea that she hasn't been returning emails and phone calls and she feels bad about it. And then I found this interesting, perhaps many people believe I've been corrupted already. Oh, so you made it big time and now you're blowing me off. She's feeling that pressure too.

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. When Iris's book became an international bestseller, she reached a status most writers can only dream of. She became a celebrity.

• 1:28:04Jocko Willink?

  But she also paid a price for it. In February 1998, after a long book tour, she'd already told us that once she came home, she did not want to go out anymore. All she wanted to do was stay home with Brett, that was her husband, she'd been married now, and have a good sleep. After several weeks of continuous book signings, public speeches, and traveling, she said, her life was a nonstop blur of airport, lecture hall, hotel, airport, lecture hall, hotel. The responses to her speeches were overwhelming. Wherever she went, people besieged her after every speech. When she came home, she inevitably came down with a cold or a flu, only to recover in time for the next book tour. She was physically exhausted.

• 1:28:50Jocko Willink?

  Not only that, but during the book signings, many old Asian people came up to her, Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Singaporean, Indian, they poured out their personal stories of suffering during World War II in Asia to her. Some of them wept and thanked her profusely for writing such a book. They said, "It's so frustrating to see that Japan to this day hasn't formally acknowledged their war crimes." They exclaimed, "It's about time."

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  Iris said that on the one hand, she felt rewarded, that she was sought out and greatly respected by many people, but on the other hand, she was mentally and emotionally drained after hearing those stories. On June 29th, 1998, Iris wrote, "Dear Mom, I arrived safely in New York today after giving a well-received speech in Baltimore to the women doctors. Actually, it was very depressing. During the Q and A, a Pakistani doctor told the audience about the atrocities against Bengali women in 1971. A Filipino doctor described how she escaped the rape of Manila when she was 12, and an Indian doctor had discussed the Indian tradition of Suti, which is the burning of

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  widows alive. Others talked about the international sex slave industry, the trafficking of women and children, female genital mutilation in Africa. You get the idea." It seemed there were endless gruesome stories that people were eager to share with her. On top of her busy schedule of book tours, outside people might not realize that besides her traveling signings and books and speeches, she was constantly besotted with additional email requests from news reporters for written interviews. Sometimes there were 10 or 15 written questions for her to answer, so the reporters could write a news article or profile.

• 1:30:49Jocko Willink?

  Iris still could find time to answer those questions accordingly. So she's just a go-getter, right? She's not stopping regardless of what's happening. And now, as this book has gained all this popularity, now she's starting to get some attacks as well, from, like I said, from the Japanese nationalists that are saying, "Oh, this didn't happen. You're glorifying it, or you're making it sound like worse than it was." And here's the letter that she wrote. Dear Mom. Tonight I read an article about John Steinbeck's life in the Los Gatos mountain area and learned that the reception of the Grapes of Wrath mirrored that of the Rape of Nanking. In a letter to a friend Steinbeck wrote, "The vilification of me out here from the

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  large landowners and bankers is pretty bad. The latest rumor started by them that the Okies hate me for lying about them. So I'm frightened at the rolling might of this thing. It is completely out of hand. I mean, the kind of hysteria about the book is growing that is not healthy. Love, Iris." So she feels the same way that she's starting to get, this book is almost becoming more powerful than she, you know, more than she can control. And here's another, another letter that she wrote.

• 1:32:10Jocko Willink?

  "A few nights ago, I leafed through Richard Rhodes autobiography, A Whole in the World, after our lunch together. As you know, Rhodes was starved, beaten, and psychologically abused as a child by his stepmother. His mother had committed suicide by shooting herself, and his father degenerated into an alcoholic, leaving him virtually incapable of protecting his family. Every time I reread this book, I'm convinced that Richard Rhodes is lucky to be alive. He was a genuine victim. But even his experience pales in comparison to the stories of abandoned children in the PRC orphanages." That's People's Republic of China. I don't even want to get into that right now.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  Delving into history, into other people's stories, places all our problems into perspective. Time and again, we have to remind ourselves how extraordinarily lucky we are. Much love, Iris." And clearly, that's something that I talk about on a regular basis. You look at the suffering that other people go through, and it reminds you of how lucky we are not to be in those situations. But it seemed like Iris was having a hard time maintaining that positive outlook, and she's keeps getting dragged down into the darkness.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Hearing that Peanuts cartoonist, Charles Schulz, had died, Iris was quite sentimental and wrote me a letter. And here's the letter, quote, "Dear Mom, I have a favor to ask you. Can you save the last Peanuts comic strip that appeared yesterday? And mail it to me? I'm still reeling from the news of Charles Schulz's death. It's the end of an era. I still remember all the hours I spent reading Peanuts books as a child. Do you recall the time we went together to a garage sale in Champaign? And you brought me my first Snoopy cartoon book? A used paperback already yellow with age? That's when I first fell in love with the Peanuts comic strip. You and Dad grew up with the Peanuts cartoon as well.

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  And Chinese newspapers in Taiwan making both of you part of the Peanuts era as well. Years later in Santa Barbara, I met Charles Schulz in person at the SB Writers Conference. During his lecture, however, I was surprised by his demeanor, which was bitter, gloomy, and depressed, almost nasty. After his lecture, I stood in a long line waiting for Schulz to autograph a copy of his book. When I finally stood in front of him, I asked Schulz if I could write a profile about him for The New Yorker or some other major magazine. "Why is a young person like you interested in an old man like me?" was his response. At the time, I thought he was being sarcastic, but later I learned that Schulz, like Charlie Brown,

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  is a terribly insecure person, fundamentally convinced of his own unworthiness. That was the last time I ever spoke, I ever saw Schulz. But last year, I had one more opportunity to see him. To make a long story short, I didn't have time to make the long two-hour drive to Santa Rosa. And I figured I would see Schulz at the next Santa Barbara's Writers Conference. I never expected that Schulz would pass away only a few months later. Do you think Charles Schulz committed suicide? Don't you find it odd that he died the night before his final strip ran in the Sunday newspaper? As you know, Peanuts ran from 1950 to 2000, a perfect 50 years. And he died right when the strip ended.

• 1:35:51Jocko Willink?

  But life is seldom as neat and tidy as a cartoon box. It's almost as if he timed his dramatic exit from this world, achieving his final deadline. Love, Iris.

• 1:36:07Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, "It seems like Iris could not get the death of Charles Schultz off her mind. The next day, she wrote to me again about him. Dear Mom, I think it was Charles Schultz's pessimism, as well as his ability to understand human failure, insecurity, heartbreak that made millions love peanuts." You're absolutely right. Schultz had no reason whatsoever to be depressed after achieving wealth and fame at such an early age. But depression is not rational. Perhaps he did have a mental problem or some chemically-induced condition, but whatever it was, it prevented him from losing touch with the underdogs of the world. It's strange, but I still feel a void in my heart after Schultz's death, even though

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  I never knew him and didn't particularly like him after our meeting in person. It made me wonder, what is the secret to Schultz's magic appeal? The answer, I believe, is simple. Schultz understands a heart of a loser. He captures those moments in life when we feel utterly unloved, unwanted, and alone. All of us, no matter how successful, have felt like losers at some point in life. Love, Iris." So you're starting to see, there's a, there's a, an indication, right? There's an indication.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  She's sort of seeing things like depression in other people, regardless of, you know, how successful they are. And at this point, you know, she's a New York Times bestseller, Woman of the Year, all this other stuff. So she's successful. And yet, she's recognizing how that doesn't really mean anything and you can still be depressed. After September 11th, 2001, she wrote this, or a few days after it, she wrote this.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  Again, to her mom and dad in this case. Quote, "Events are unfolding faster than I can react to them." First, the WTC and Pentagon tragedies, then the Japanese Prime Minister's unexpected apology to comfort women, and now a major court victory of a former Korean slave laborer against a Japanese corporation. This week, I tried to work on my book and recover from general exhaustion and a mild case of the flu, but I have to admit, it's hard to stay focused. I plan to do nothing more than write, exercise, and rest for the next few weeks. Love, Iris." So she's now working on her next book, still working hard, probably working too hard, not

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  focusing enough, and her mom, now she's got a kid as well, and we know that adding a kid into the mix doesn't make things, you know, doesn't give you more free time, we can promise you that. Nope. And she's married, now she has a son, and her mom actually started like putting some pressure on her, they said, "Hey, you know, you got a kid now, you gotta spend, you know, maybe you're going a little overboard with the work." Back to the book, on October 3rd, 2003, in an email, I asked Iris whether she was putting too much emphasis on her career, placing her career before her family. She replied, "That is not true. It's just that I believe that I have some power to shape my destiny, and I want Christopher to..." That's the son.

• 1:39:30Jocko Willink?

  "I want Christopher to have his mother a strong, to have in his mother a strong role model, a person who is his own individual, impervious to the whims of others. I cannot teach Christopher to be an intellectual and a socially responsible person unless I demonstrate to him through my actions that I myself am such a person. I want to teach Christopher that it is far better to belong to the critical minority than the unquestioning majority. I want to teach him the ability to think independently, to evaluate ideas and information on his own, without the official sanction of the authorities, and if possible, to create." These qualities are not universally popular in our society.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  My tendency to stand alone apart from the crowd has caused me a great pain and suffering throughout my life, but in the end, I am stronger and better person because of it.

• 1:40:33Jocko Willink?

  Now, she's continuing on, she's continuing to just kind of grind and grind and grind. And there's an incident.

• 1:40:47Jocko Willink?

  She's gone on a trip to Louisville, Kentucky. And things start going sideways. Back to the book. That night, we went to sleep and assumed that Iris would be alright. But about 2am California time in the early morning of Friday, August 13th, we were awakened by a phone call. I picked up the phone and it was Iris. Her voice was shaking and she told me she'd seen some frightening pictures on the TV in her hotel room. Iris and I then had a conversation about this. Apparently, she could not fall asleep, so she turned on the TV. I asked her what kind of pictures were on the TV screen. She said it showed some horrible atrocities and ugly images of children torn apart by wars.

• 1:41:27Jocko Willink?

  She said that the TV was showing something similar to scenes from hell, like an unimagined World War III. She had turned off their TV, waited a while, and then turned it on again to find the ugly images had disappeared. I responded that maybe the TV had been showing a war movie. It's very possible, I said, that during the wee hours of the night, TV stations would show such a genre of horror films. Then Iris told me she did not feel things had been quite right from the very moment she'd arrived at the hotel. The clerk at the front desk looked suspicious to her. And spoke to a person who later kept looking at the window of her room.

• 1:42:06Jocko Willink?

  While Iris was still talking with me on the phone, she told me that she could still see that person standing outside on the lawn and not far from her room. He looked at her window and as she peered through her curtain. She told me she suspected her room was wired and that what she had seen on TV was real and intentionally shown to threaten her. So she's getting paranoid. She's paranoid that Japanese nationalists are coming after her. She's, and it's starting to affect her mind. Back to the book. It was past 5am in Kentucky. I asked her had she gotten any sleep at all? She said she couldn't fall asleep and she was exhausted and had a terrible headache. She was sick, I could tell. She had to be ill.

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  Because she had not been able to sleep for three or four days prior to the trip. She also had not eaten, nor had she drunk any liquid for some time. She said she had ordered some takeout dinner that was delivered to her room, but she did not have any appetite and hadn't eaten anything. She didn't want to drink anything either, afraid that someone might poison her. I knew that under severe sleep deprivation, people could have delusions. So, her parents decide they're gonna, they're gonna fly, well, she has a breakdown. And they get a call saying, hey, something happened to Iris, you need to get out here. They fly out to Louisville. As soon as they get to Louisville, they go to the hospital.

• 1:43:30Jocko Willink?

  When she gets to, when they get to the hospital, she, they, they go to find her and she's in the psychiatric unit. And they, she was sent to the psychiatric unit because they hadn't found anything wrong with her physically, which, you know, would include, in my opinion, that includes like, she's not dehydrated. She's not starving. She's got some psychiatric issues. So, back to the book, in the evening, the doctor finally came in and met with us. He briefed us on Iris's condition in front of all of us. He believed Iris had experienced a so-called brief reactive psychosis due to stress conditions such as lack of sleep and food. He added that her condition could also be a possible onset of bipolar disorder

• 1:44:12Jocko Willink?

  and recommended that Iris see a doctor for follow-up after her return home. He gave us a reference. He also prescribed an antipsychotic drug, risperdal, risperdal. Two milligrams a day for Iris to take for at least a year. And then they, they get in the cab and as she get in the cab, she's kind of like making statements and saying strange things about what she sees. Billboard, she's making strange comments about them. And finally, they land at San Jose Airport. And I'll go back to the book, we called Michael, and that's, that's the son or Iris's brother. We called Michael to come pick us up.

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  While we were waiting for Michael, Iris said that she felt dizzy and had a headache. She told me that things seemed distorted to her and that the expressions of people around her were strange. At that time, we did not know how powerful psychiatric drugs were and thought that Iris's behavior was strange. I later realized that while in the hospital, Iris had been given heavy doses of risperdal and a tranquilizer to calm her down. The side effects of psychiatric drugs could be severe. That explained why she felt dizzy and had a headache and distortion of her visual perception.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  So she's now on these drugs. She's, she's taking the, the risperdal, uh, two milligrams a day. The medicine's making her super sleepy. And once they're back in the Bay Area, the, the mom, uh, Ying Ying starts looking for, uh, you know, a board certified psychiatrist to bring her to. And she ends up with this guy that they called Dr. B. Back to the book, Iris was now seeing Dr. B. once a week and she persuaded him to reduce her dosages, dosage of risperdal, risperdal by half from one milligram or from two, one milligram from, from two down to one.

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  From the very beginning, Iris did not like to take any drugs and she kept trying to reduce the dosage or stop it entirely. The rest of the family was hoping that with the risperdal, Iris would be less depressed, but to no avail, there was no difference. So interestingly, Iris is saying, hey, I don't want to take this drug, you know, I want to get off of it. And they're all saying, look, just keep taking it. And eventually he just, he prescribes her with another drug, which is called Amplify. And as soon as, back to the book, as soon as Iris took the Amplify 10 milligrams, she became excessively sleepy. She could sleep for 12 hours or more straight. So now she's sleeping, I mean, 12 hours a day.

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  Bad. And back to the book, Iris felt that her illness and inability to take care of Christopher was a burden to everyone, something she hated. I could see that she was very sad and felt helpless.

• 1:47:11Jocko Willink?

  So this continues on and finally, they go back to a meeting with Dr. B. Dr. B stunned us all with what he said next. In a very serious tone, he said he thought Iris' condition was very grave, and he suggested that Iris check into a recovery facility. He said that the facility was in Salcelito, near the beach. It was quite ideal for mental patients to recuperate. As soon as Iris heard this, she immediately showed her disapproval. I could understand her suspicion of any facility designed for so-called "mental patients." She had learned many historical instances of government persecution of political dissidents. One way was to put those dissidents into mental institutions and abuse them, sometimes leading to death. I did not blame her for her suspicions. She was

• 1:47:54Jocko Willink?

  already suspecting that evil forces were at work against her for what she had written and done in the name of justice. Dr. B, she told Dr. B that she did not think her mental state was that bad, and that she didn't need to go to a recovery facility.

• 1:48:10Jocko Willink?

  So they start looking for someone else to take her to besides Dr. B. And now she gets prescribed another drug, which is called Celexa. And so she's on Celexa, and she's on Abilify. And back to the book, at this time, or sorry, Abilify. At this time, Iris was already experiencing the strong side effects of Abilify. Most obvious were her lack of energy and the fact that she was drowsy all the time. In addition, when she woke up from her daily naps, she complained that her shoulders and leg joints were sore, which were new symptoms that she thought likely to

• 1:48:50Jocko Willink?

  have been caused by the drug. I was worried about the side effects of Abilify and voiced my concern to Dr. B. He said the dosage was the lowest possible, and that the side effects would gradually disappear. In retrospect, it appears to us that Abilify had a big impact on Iris' mental state. It was a turning point in her condition, became worse after she started taking Abilify, and then later worsened even more with Celexa.

• 1:49:23Jocko Willink?

  So now another incident takes place. She kind of disappears for a little bit. No one really knows where she is. They call the cops to find out eventually. She calls back and she says, hey, look, I was out. I was tired. I checked into a hotel to get some sleep. That's the story she tells and she's, her mom says she sounds guilty as she's trying to tell this story. And then a few days later, they, they find the, some sleeping pills and a bottle of vodka. And they're kind of realized that she was, you know, thinking about committing suicide.

• 1:50:05Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, her mom says she probably just went into a room to do that and fell asleep. When she woke up, I guess she changed her mind. And, you know, back to the book here on the drugs that she was taking. We now know that a Billify website warns that the drug can affect your judgment, thinking, or motor skills, as well as the side effects of increasing risk of suicide, drowsiness, anxiety, and muscle stiffness. And the Selexa website warns about suicide anxiety and self-destructive or aggressive impulses. So these drugs that you take for these problems have side effects that sound, you know, worse.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Worse than the problem.

• 1:50:45Jocko Willink?

  Than what the problem is. Then she goes on to say that, that the first attempt at suicide that she made, so this, this attempt, was when she, was when she was on 10 milligrams of Billify. And the other thing that that mentions in these, about these drugs, is that when you change prescription, when you change doses, or you go on or off of them, that's when the, you're most vulnerable. And so that suicide attempt was in line with one of those changes.

• 1:51:23Jocko Willink?

  So they go back to now they're with another doctor doc who they call Dr. C.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book Iris stopped taking Selexa on October 7th after the support group meeting. She told Dr. C on the phone that she would discontinue seeing him if he insisted on her taking the medicine. As a compromise, Dr. C persuaded her to continue seeing him and then he would decide whether she could gradually decrease the dosage of risperdal, which she was still on. All of us told Iris that both the medication and the psychotherapy sessions were needed for rapid recovery. If she didn't want to take the medication, then at least she should have she should have psychotherapy sessions with the doctor. She agreed to continue seeing Dr. C. Looking back at what ended up happening, it was so ironic. Iris was the one who did not want to take the medication, whereas the rest

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  of the family believed in doctors and thought the medication would help her.

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, "The morning of Thursday, October 21st, when I went to see her, she was very unhappy and complained that I was following her too closely. I found she had not eaten well the night before, so I suggested going out for lunch. We drove to a nearby restaurant. In the parking lot, when she stopped the car, she sat there and told me without any expression that she wanted to cry, but had no tears. Her face was greenish and in a horrible depressed state. At this time, she had already mentioned that she did not want to live anymore. I also noticed that her arm and leg movements and facial expressions were rigid, and it seemed even worse that she wanted to cry, but had no

• 1:53:07Jocko Willink?

  tears. Back then, I did not suspect that all these symptoms could be the serious side effects of the medications."

• 1:53:28Jocko Willink?

  Iris began to feel hopeless, I later realized. She wanted to carry out her plan, and she did not want us to find out. In the last week of her life, she prohibited me from visiting her. She did not even want me to call her and did not return my calls or my emails. In that final week, Xiao Jin and I took a walk ourselves to ease our worries. I went to Apollo Alto Support Group on Wednesday, November 3rd. Xiao Jin and I went to another support group in San Jose on Friday, November 5th. We tried to gather information on how to deal with depression in loved ones who were possibly suicidal.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  For all this time, she was actively planning her final exit, while we tried to find a way to rescue her. We raced against her, and we did not realize that she would carry out her plan so quickly. One week later, on November 9th, she was gone.

• 1:54:41Jocko Willink?

  And here is the note that was found next to Iris's computer. Dear Brett, Mom, Dad, and Mike. For the last few weeks, I have been struggling with my decision as to whether I should live or die. As I mentioned to Brett, when you believe you have a future, you think of terms of generations and years. When you do not, you live just by the day. You live not just by the day, but by the minute.

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  You don't want someone who will live out the rest of her days as a mere shell of her former self. I had considered running away, but I will never be able to escape from myself and my thoughts.

• 1:55:43Jocko Willink?

  I am doing this because I am too weak to withstand the years of pain and agony ahead. Each breath is becoming difficult for me to take. The anxiety can be compared to drowning in an open sea.

• 1:55:59Jocko Willink?

  I know that my actions will transfer some of this pain to others, indeed, those who love me the most.

• 1:56:09Jocko Willink?

  Please forgive me.

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  Forgive me because I cannot forgive myself.

• 1:56:20Jocko Willink?

  Love, Iris.

• 1:56:36Jocko Willink?

  And Iris's mom closes out the book saying,

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  "It was an untimely death."

• 1:56:45Jocko Willink?

  Over the years, Iris had always commented that life was too short for her to finish the thing she wanted to accomplish. She said many times that she wanted to write more books, to make films, and record more oral histories.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  It was so painful to realize that many of her dreams were not fulfilled. Yet it is not how she died, but rather how she lived that will be her legacy.

• 1:57:17Jocko Willink?

  Whenever I think of Iris, the memories of a loving daughter and a beautiful soul will always remain with me.

• 1:57:25Jocko Willink?

  In her short thirty-six years, she had inspired many, many people in the world with her noble spirit, her passion, dedication, sincerity, and determination.

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  In preserving historical truth, in pursuing justice for the voiceless victims.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  Iris was a woman whose heart beat passionately for those who suffered. She was a woman who could not forget.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  She could not forget their agony, and she refused to let their stories go untold.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  Iris's life was short, but brilliant. Like a splendid rainbow across the sky, one that the goddess she was named after would be proud of.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  Iris's rainbow was magnificent. Vanishing quickly.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  A rainbow vanishing quickly.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  And I guess that that is what we all are.

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  A rainbow vanishing quickly.

• 1:59:11Jocko Willink?

  But, before we vanish,

• 1:59:19Jocko Willink?

  I say,

• 1:59:22Jocko Willink?

  shine.

• 1:59:29Jocko Willink?

  Shine. All that darkness in the world.

• 1:59:35Jocko Willink?

  Be the light. And be the color, be the good and the strong and the brightness that drives away the dark.

• 1:59:49Jocko Willink?

  We have but one chance here.

• 1:59:55Jocko Willink?

  One chance, one opportunity to stretch across the sky and shine.

• 2:00:11Jocko Willink?

  Value that.

• 2:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Value that, value life.

• 2:00:21Jocko Willink?

  And know

• 2:00:24Jocko Willink?

  that the light will spread.

• 2:00:28Jocko Willink?

  And good will prevail.

• 2:00:33Jocko Willink?

  It will prevail over evil so long

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  as we stand up.

• 2:00:43Jocko Willink?

  Stand up

• 2:00:46Jocko Willink?

  against all that wickedness in the world.

• 2:00:52Jocko Willink?

  We stand up.

• 2:00:58Jocko Willink?

  And shine.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 2:01:13Jocko Willink?

  Echo?

• 2:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you go ahead and take the mic for a minute there? Sure. While I decompress over on the side. Sure. I was, uh...

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  I was talking with Greg Train yesterday.

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  And you can complain about something where you can embrace. This is one of the big things I kind of learned from you. And this is like, when you look at your own situation compared to other, you know, past situations that are way worse, right? So one, you start with, okay, your, your situation isn't that bad. That's what you start with. Then you go on to, okay, my situation, these are small, teeny tiny challenges that all you have to do is approach them in this way of like embracing it. You know how like, um, like any time, okay, anytime you're feeling frustrated about your situation or whatever, right? And really in person, when you put it in perspective, these are small challenges that you just gotta overcome.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  You take it on as, it's like, yeah, you want to put more work on my plate at work.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause I can handle it.

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Cause I can handle it and I'll do it the best and watch me work, you know?

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  That is good and interesting. You know, when, when we had Tim Ferriss on here and when I did Tim Ferriss's interview, the first time I was on his podcast and he, it's the thing that I talked about when he came on here. Like I, he asked the question, sort of saying, hey, how close do you get to the darkness before it consumes you? And I've talked about before, uh, you know, if you stare into the soul of a monster, you have to be careful because you might become a monster.

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Jocko Willink?

  And so I, I mean, I, I think, yeah, there's the drugs that she got put on, obviously played a role, but she got in this world where all she saw was the bad.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05Jocko Willink?

  And I think that to Tim Ferriss's point where he was saying to me like, hey, how often should I get close to the darkness? You know, how often should I look at that? And, you know, my response was, hey, in order to know the light, you gotta know the darkness. But you can absolutely go too far in that direction.

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:26Jocko Willink?

  And you can say to yourself, wow, the world is evil and everyone's evil. And underneath the surface, everyone could turn into this imperial Japanese soldier and commit these atrocities. And that is what you absolutely.

• 2:03:41Jocko Willink?

  And I would say be careful. I don't know if that's the right word. I guess it is the right word. Be careful. But to me, what you have to do is you have to balance it. And to me, as an American, as a man, there's so much good, right? I think that people generally get get jaded to all the good that's out there. And that's why I say, hey, you know what? Look over here at the darkness. But for someone that's stuck in a horrible place, in a horrible situation in life, that's those, those folks got to look out and say, wait a second. There's not, there's so much good out there. You know, if you take a like, that's clearly, I mean, you look at, look at Iris Chang. I mean, she is

• 2:04:19Jocko Willink?

  smart and successful and beautiful and well liked and had a, she came up with an amazing family. Her parents were adored her. Right? She had everything in her life was good. Right? And she lost all that. She, you know what it's like, uh, if you talk to anybody that flies planes, right? If you go into a cloud, you lose your orientation. It happens in diving, too. It happens when you're surfing. If you, if you fall off a big wave and you're getting rolled around, sometimes it can be hard to tell which way is up. Right? It can happen, you know, guys drive, drive their airplanes. They get lost in the cloud. They drive their airplanes into a mountain or they drive it into the ground because they don't, they get disoriented and they lose sight of which way is up and you, or you're underwater and you lose sight of which way is up.

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  That's what you have to watch out for. You gotta be able to say, wait a second, if everything is black around me? Okay, stop. Let me get oriented. Let me fit, let me check my control panel. In the water, it's real easy. You gotta look for bubbles. Which way are the, where are the bubbles? Bubbles are gonna go up. And so when you get trapped in that darkness, these people will end up in these situations where everything looks black. Stop. You're disoriented. You, you just can't see. You don't know the right direction. It's okay. Figure out where the bubbles are. They're gonna go to the surface. And when they get to the surface, there's gonna be light and you're gonna be okay.

• 2:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Obviously Iris, she got dragged down and disoriented in the darkness and she couldn't figure out that she had a husband and a son and a family and money and she had all these beautiful things in her life.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, which a lot of times, especially if you go full speed in that direction where you don't know which way is up, so you're going down. Even the good things that come in, you know, like even, you know, when you get paranoid, something good and you're like, that's bad.

• 2:06:12Jocko Willink?

  For instance, for instance, she's on a trip in Louisville, gonna go do a speech or whatever, and someone's checking her in the hotel, maybe someone was saying, oh, I think that's Iris Chang I saw on TV. Instead, she's thinking, oh, it's some nationalists that are coming to get me. So yeah, she was absolutely, so that's something that, that I think, and it's something that for, for those of us that are not in that situation, how do you pay attention and observe people and make sure that your friends or people you know, or people that are in bad situations, how do you make sure that they're getting enough that they know how to orient themselves and get back to the surface and get away from all that horribleness?

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  When you approach things, and I was talking to Greg, that's kind of what, and this just reminded me of it, when you approach things like that, you, you know how like you said, you're going down, if you don't know which way is up, you're going down. A good thing, you're gonna look at it, that's a bad thing, reinforcing my whole direction, by the way. So if you approach it in a way where things that even would be frustrating to like an everyday person, if you approach it like, good, um, you know, I'm the one to do this thing, bring the challenge, because the challenges are good, you know, if that's the approach, that'll reinforce that way of thinking.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  So you will be going, you know, that, and really, when you explore darkness,

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  that's not to embrace the darkness and be dark, like I said, don't become the, that's basically, you're trying to avoid ignorance, that's what you're doing. Because you got no darkness.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  And it's a contrast, it's a contrast, so you can see, okay, guess what? This, and for this case, I mean, obviously, I pray never have to read anything as heinous as that again, ever on this show.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:07:48Jocko Willink?

  But.

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  That happened.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:51Jocko Willink?

  Right, that happened.

• 2:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:53Jocko Willink?

  That happened. We should not, you shouldn't go through life and not realize that that happened.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:01Jocko Willink?

  That that happened to you, that human beings did that to other human beings. As horrible as it is, you need to realize that that is a part of our human history. So that way you can say, you could, you recognize and say, okay, this is, this can happen. And we need to watch out for it. And, yeah.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Look out for your friends, keep them knowing that there's, keep them knowing which direction they're heading in. And when you see someone going sideways, bring them, grab them.

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Especially with the, I mean, this is kind of a, it's specific to this story, but the, uh, the drugs. You know, when you take medication, cause that's a big one, man. It can mess up your, even like how you said, when you get off the drugs.

• 2:08:50Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  You know, cause this, these are all chemical things in your brain, made for certain things.

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  So. When that part goes sideways, you can't like reason necessarily with someone. You know, they can't reason with, you can't reason with yourself, you know?

• 2:09:05Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Stuff that would seem obvious, hey, if I, you know, walk off this cliff, it's obvious that's bad. It doesn't really work that way if like your chemicals are off.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  So, yeah, you kind of gotta, you know, like look out for somebody if you can see that happening.

• 2:09:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no doubt. And it's very, it's very interesting. The, the, the mind is so incredibly durable. But at the same time, it's just totally fragile. And little, some little change to the, to the composition or to the, to the chemicals that are in, or to the thought patterns that are in.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, can be really drastic changes on a, on a person.

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. You ever, you ever have a real bad flu and a fever and then you're trying to go to sleep?

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  And then

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I have.

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  You know, and it's almost like a mix between dreaming, hallucinating and like you cause man, it's like your thoughts are all jumbled up.

• 2:10:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay. You want, you want me to tell you an echo story right now?

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  This will be a stupid echo story.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  So brace yourself.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 2:10:10Jocko Willink?

  So I was like twen- I was twenty three years old or something. And I was doing the dishes. Speaking of doing the dishes, I was doing the dishes. And I turned on the water and I didn't see what was happening, but this little stream, a tiny little stream of water had, had broken through the pipe at some point in the handle.

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  And it, and it started to land on my hand. Well, I didn't know that it was water. Cause it must've been like the similar temperature to what my body was at the time. And so I see this and it looks for, for a quarter of a second. It looks like my hand is blistering. It's just, and it's spreading so rapidly. And for a quarter of a second, I thought to myself, I'm being attacked by chemical warfare and I'm going to die in the next, next half a second, I'm dead. I think we were, we were doing some chemical warfare training or whatever. And so at that moment, for about a half a second, I thought I'm about to die. And it only lasted about, then I realized it was water and I said, oh cool.

• 2:11:15Jocko Willink?

  But my point is that mentally.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  What if, you know, a different situation, I could get locked into that mode. And when you see Iris going, hey, these people are coming after me. If you get mentally locked in that mode and you start seeing things that are, that, that you, you start imposing or overlaying your reality over actual reality. You start augmenting reality yourself. That gets really, really scary.

• 2:11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like when you think someone's mad at you. Ever had that? You think someone's mad at you. So you're looking for all the little cues, you know? Dang, is this person mad at me or, or are they not? And normal, everyday stuff, you know?

• 2:11:51Jocko Willink?

  Why didn't, why didn't she text me back quickly?

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:54Jocko Willink?

  It took her five minutes.

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  I know. Usually she, she puts a smiley face. No smiley face this time, you know?

• 2:12:00Jocko Willink?

  She hates you.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's mad. I know she's mad. Something's wrong. But yeah. So yeah, if you have, meanwhile, they're like, well, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

• 2:12:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Interesting. Anyway, speaking of, uh, being mad, or should I say the opposite of being mad? So this is what you do. Take Alpha Brain.

• 2:12:17Jocko Willink?

  Alpha Brainy.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  Uh, the, the pre-workout performance and strength. And go work out, see what happens.

• 2:12:26Jocko Willink?

  That will make you feel better.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  Report back, yeah.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  Actually, that's something Iris and her mom both referred to a couple of times here. They were like, her mom would say, you know, I want you to go exercise with me. And I should have put that in the podcast, but hey, get the book and read it yourself. I mean, that's what you need to do. I should have said that earlier. The Rape and End King, absolutely, you know, get it. Try and read it when you're in a happy place, right?

• 2:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:52Jocko Willink?

  It's a hard, hard read. It might be the hardest read of any read possible. I don't know what could be harder than that. And then the book, The Woman Who Could Not Forget by Ying Ying Chang, which again chronicles her life, and it's a really beautiful story and with obviously with a tragic ending and hopefully lessons learned from it. One of the lessons being be physically, be physically active. And her mom was trying to get her to go to the gym with her and work out with her because there's no doubt. It's physiologically fact, physiological fact. When you work out, you get endorphins released, you feel better. Hundred percent.

• 2:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it also, which is good, I just heard this on, it was Joe Rogan.

• 2:13:36Speaker 01

  Doctor Rhonda Patrick is her name. She was talking about how working out exercise, like is it is one of the more powerful anti-aging.

• 2:13:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  So you know, like when you get older, you know, people, you know, Alzheimer's.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said, not for physical aging, but for mental aging as well.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  That's what, yeah. Yeah. So man, it's just an all around good deal. Brad, this is, so one time, I think I even mentioned, no, I didn't mention this. So one time I, I might have drank maybe the night before. This was like maybe a few months ago. And I didn't work out for a while, you know, I was like, you know, immersed in, I don't know, work, I don't know. Either way, I didn't work, it was, no, no, I got sick and then I got hurt. So I can't, you know.

• 2:14:20Jocko Willink?

  So you cured that with the bottle?

• 2:14:24Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that. Compound. Oh, I'm gonna make myself feel better. No, you're not actually.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it works. Yeah, I probably compounded.

• 2:14:31Jocko Willink?

  Continue your story and tell everyone what not to do.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So don't do this. No, but there's a happy ending. So at the, so boom, I was over the sickness. My injury was good and I worked and I worked out kinda hard too. And it was weird because I went in the workout thinking, okay, I'm glad I get to go work out. But when, when you're done, okay, I'll admit this. And I think a lot of people have these thoughts where maybe you've done something, like maybe your routine, for whatever reason, is going over and over, like just real repetitive. And then after a while, yeah, true, but I'm just saying sometimes these thoughts like, what does all this even mean? Like, what, what, okay, I'm gonna get this and this and it's like.

• 2:15:12Jocko Willink?

  You think too much.

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  After a while, so at the end of, you know, life, it's like, okay, I did all this. I just, I don't know, I just didn't really, I was having some of those thoughts. They weren't like super heavy or nothing, but they're in there. They're like, okay, great. Anyway. So anyway, fast forward, I worked out, did the workout.

• 2:15:33Speaker 01

  God after it. Textbook definition of God after it. That was my workout. I was done and, and actually not even done. I was like in the middle of the workout. And I was like, dang, life has straight up meaning. Like this is what life is. And not necessarily the workout, just saying everything I'm doing. You know, it was that feeling.

• 2:15:54Jocko Willink?

  Was that the alpha brain?

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  It must have been.

• 2:15:58Jocko Willink?

  So what you're saying is get alphabet.

• 2:16:00Speaker 01

  I'm saying, I'm saying go work out.

• 2:16:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, I like that part too.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  You gotta, I'm not saying you gotta, but I'm saying if you wanna, yeah.

• 2:16:07Jocko Willink?

  Workout. Workout for sure.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  Change your life.

• 2:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Take on it.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  Big time. Yeah. So the alpha brain, um, that's a nootropic. That helps your memory and whatnot. So anyway, if you're gonna work out and you wanna take some supplements, which I recommend now. I was never a supplement person. I tried them, but never was really into them. Where I'd be like, you gotta take this. Take the pre-workout.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Performance and strength, that's what it's called.

• 2:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Take that one.

• 2:16:41Jocko Willink?

  What about Shroom Tech?

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  I say take the Shroom Tech.

• 2:16:44Jocko Willink?

  Here's the thing with. I've been stacking them, I'm telling you.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  See.

• 2:16:47Jocko Willink?

  Watch out.

• 2:16:47Speaker 01

  I haven't been taking Shroom Tech.

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  I feel like that's like cheating. Not cheating, cheating, but I mean, in jujitsu, I mean.

• 2:16:55Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, I don't feel like it's cheating.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  No, it's not cheating, but I feel like.

• 2:16:59Jocko Willink?

  You said you thought it was cheating.

• 2:17:00Speaker 01

  I feel like.

• 2:17:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'll tell you what, it doesn't matter. I mean, when it comes down to it, Shroom Tech or no Shroom Tech, bring it.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:10Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 2:17:11Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, my original point was, okay, working out, that's the enhancer. That's the enhancer. If you want to enhance the enhancer.

• 2:17:18Jocko Willink?

  Today, that's what I think.

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  You keep, you keep making me think of more stuff.

• 2:17:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I'll stop talking.

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then I feel like, oh, I should talk about that. Anyway, working out is an important part. That enhances the life.

• 2:17:31Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  Alpha brain, these supplements, Alpha Brain, Shroom Tech, all these other ones. That enhances the workout, which is the enhancer. So enhance the enhancer kind of thing. Anyway, if you like these things, you want 10% off, you don't want to pay full price.

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  Or maybe do, I don't know. But if you don't, go on it.com slash chocolate 10% off. Support yourself as well and your wallet.

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  I want to talk about Amazon click through. That's a good way to support. That's good because it's like, you know, small little thing, doesn't cost you anything, as you always say. And, um, you know, big result, big support.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm going to make the sodium in the fish tank analogy. I'm going to do it.

• 2:18:16Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:17Jocko Willink?

  Good, because I wasn't expecting that at all.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you throw the sodium in water and it blows a small piece of sodium out. Boom, blows up.

• 2:18:22Jocko Willink?

  That's important that you said that, but what would be more important would be to actually say how you do Amazon click through.

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, I think you're right about that. So what you do is you go to jockpodcast.com, little banner on the side. There's the, the, the UK one, dot C O dot U K as well.

• 2:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Is it Germany?

• 2:18:40Speaker 01

  Yes, it's Germany, I think.

• 2:18:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  I'm pretty sure, yeah. It's right there on the site. Boom, the, the, the main one, the top one, or the, the one on top is the, the US one, amazon.com. Click through there before you do your Amazon shopping. That's the way to support. Doesn't cost you anything. Small action, big reaction. Be the sodium. Be the sodium.

• 2:19:01Speaker 01

  Jocko is a store. It's called Jocko's store.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  URL Jocko's store.com. If you want shirts, Discipline Equals Freedom. They're all Jocko approved and official. Go on there, look at them. If you like them, get a shirt.

• 2:19:16Jocko Willink?

  By the way, they're not all Jocko approved because I didn't approve the pink women's t-shirt.

• 2:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:19:21Jocko Willink?

  That was not approved.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  Right. That was actually Jocko unapproved.

• 2:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  But we-

• 2:19:26Jocko Willink?

  There was mutiny and rebellion.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is kind of part of the game too, right?

• 2:19:29Jocko Willink?

  No, not really.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  Well, according to the shirts that we got, it is.

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, apparently.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  So that one is technically not Jocko approved, but it's Jocko unapproved. So it's dope nonetheless. And if you think they're solid, then yeah, get a shirt, man. Support that way.

• 2:19:47Jocko Willink?

  It's a good way to support.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's some hoodies on there and some rash guards. I'm beginning to see more and more people with the rash guards.

• 2:19:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the rash guards seem to be popular.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:56Jocko Willink?

  At least at Victory MMA and Fitness.

• 2:19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and online as well. See you guys doing it. Anyway, look at them. If you like something, get something. That's a good way to support. Coming out with a new travel mug.

• 2:20:09Jocko Willink?

  New and improved?

• 2:20:10Speaker 01

  New and improved. High quality.

• 2:20:13Jocko Willink?

  Higher quality.

• 2:20:14Speaker 01

  Higher quality, yes. Like technically. Well, you know, if you put something hot in there, it makes it, keeps it hot for a long time, hours, eight hours or something like that. If it's cold, same thing. I think cold keeps it long, keep it cold longer. Anyway. That'll be on the store in two weeks. Yeah.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Also, good way to support. And this is actually supporting yourself big time. It's like a little helper. It's like when you're benching. You ever bench?

• 2:20:44Jocko Willink?

  I don't bench much anymore.

• 2:20:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so in the event of you benching, this is what it's like. If benching is the analogy, it's like someone spotting you. If you need it, this is what it is. Psychological warfare. You like it is right? It's like a spot. You don't need it necessarily every day.

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  You don't need it all the time.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Depends on, you know, a lot of things, but if you do need it, even if you just want it. Hey, can you spot me? I might get the, I'll probably get all eight.

• 2:21:11Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  But you're there, you know, just in case. That's what this is. So if you're like, hey, I'm gonna, okay, this is what it is. For those who don't know, a lot of people do know. But if you don't know, it's an album you can buy from iTunes with tracks on it for different scenarios of what weakness you'd call it. Moments of weakness. And you need a little spot. You need a little spot. And guess who's spotting you? Taco. That's the guy to spot, right? Very dependable, very reliable, punctual, all that stuff.

• 2:21:39Jocko Willink?

  Little two minutes, they're like two minutes long.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  Give or take, yeah.

• 2:21:43Jocko Willink?

  There's one about, you know, before you're gonna go and eat.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:48Jocko Willink?

  There's one called Sugar Coated Lies.

• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:50Jocko Willink?

  I think that one might be a good one.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  You know, the end of that one, which is, I think, one of the more memorable

• 2:22:02Speaker 01

  moments, lines, whatever, when you say something about mobilize your will, cuz your will is stronger than the will of a donut.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:12Jocko Willink?

  The factual.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Bro, and that's the, when you hear that.

• 2:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it pretty sad, though? You think yourself, okay, I'm not gonna eat this donut.

• 2:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:19Jocko Willink?

  That I'm just gonna hold my willpower, but then somehow the, the will, cuz a war is, is a war of wills, right? That's what a war is. So now if you lose that war against the donut, it means your will is weaker than a donut.

• 2:22:29Speaker 01

  A donut's, well, yeah.

• 2:22:30Jocko Willink?

  That's not gonna happen.

• 2:22:31Speaker 01

  No, not when, not when.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  You put it into perspective, you're like, here's the donut, and you're like, your will is stronger than the donut. And then you eat the donut, you basically said, I understand that, and then this donut's will is stronger than mine.

• 2:22:43Jocko Willink?

  Don't wanna be that person.

• 2:22:44Speaker 01

  And that's your life right there.

• 2:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:46Speaker 01

  Man, put into perspective. Anyway, if you need that spot, psychological warfare. From Jocko Willink, do a search iTunes.

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  And it's also on other things that aren't iTunes.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Amazon Music.

• 2:22:58Jocko Willink?

  Amazon.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  It's on, it's on.

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  It's on Google Play?

• 2:23:00Speaker 01

  I'm pretty sure, yeah, anywhere that where you you can get like.

• 2:23:03Jocko Willink?

  MP3 music.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Do they call it that anymore? MP, is that still a thing? MP3 music?

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  Well, MP3 is just the file.

• 2:23:10Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:23:11Jocko Willink?

  But remember there used to be MP3 players?

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:14Jocko Willink?

  Are there still?

• 2:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, technically, everything that can play MP3s is an MP3 player. So, yeah, get, get, uh, check that one out. That one's a good, and it's a good way to support, you know? So that it's the all around circle of support in that way.

• 2:23:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um. Also, if you want to get some Jocko White Tea. You can get it. You can get that on Amazon. And when you get it, I know some people are a little nervous when they try it for the first time. Just be careful. You don't want to, you know, be in a situation where you. You, you're gonna go a little bit harder than normal, right? To be ready for that, when you, when you break out the Jocko White. You can get. Once you've used it before, you don't have to worry about it. There's no precautionary. Well, once you're, once you're using it.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  But when you start, be careful, because you're gonna go with that little extra stuff.

• 2:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna go on attack mode.

• 2:24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of like when you turn on your car and the volume is up a little bit more than you're ready for. You're like, oh, but then if you do it again, you're like, I don't, you know, same thing.

• 2:24:17Jocko Willink?

  Same thing. So watch out for that Jocko White Tea on. Amazon. Also, for international orders, it's on eBay. The official listing is of the Jocko Podcast sold by Pearl Resourcing. So if you're international and you want to get it, you can do that. And for those of you that are in, in America, that it says you see that the shipping is a hundred dollars. That's not for you to get it from there.

• 2:24:42Jocko Willink?

  It's for you to get on Amazon if you're in America. If you're overseas, the shipping won't show a hundred dollars. They'll show whatever the the cost is. So if you're, I've had a couple of people like say, why is the shipping a hundred dollars? It's not. It's Amazon Prime. The shipping is no cost. Don't get it from eBay. You understand what I'm saying?

• 2:24:56Speaker 01

  So if you're in the US.

• 2:24:57Jocko Willink?

  If you're in the US and you.

• 2:24:58Speaker 01

  eBay to try to get it.

• 2:24:59Jocko Willink?

  And try and get it. The shipping will show us a hundred dollars. Don't get it from eBay. You're not supposed to. We don't want to sell to everybody in America. We can't handle that, but we can sell to some people overseas.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  Here's what you do. Jacot.com.

• 2:25:13Jocko Willink?

  And that has this information on it too?

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  So it doesn't have that particular information, but it's it's like just a basic website. Dang, we didn't, I don't know why I didn't mention this before. It's a basic website. It's like, oh, you're in the US? Order from here. You're in the international? Order from here.

• 2:25:28Jocko Willink?

  Jacot.com.

• 2:25:29Speaker 01

  Jacot.com. It's on, it's on Jocko's store too, but it's like, you gotta go to the tab and then go to the page. You know, it's, it's, it's a thing, but go to Jacot.com if you, if you're just down for the tea.

• 2:25:43Jocko Willink?

  Just need the tea. There you go. Yeah. All right. Well, that's, well, thank you for informing us of that.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  Yet another website.

• 2:25:49Jocko Willink?

  For those of you that are asking to get after it mugs. We're looking at March, to be honest with you. This, so. Keep looking.

• 2:25:59Jocko Willink?

  Also. You know, uh, kids. We got kids out there running around. We know, we know that kids are impressionable.

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Right? As they're growing up, we know that, we also know that it's hard to be a kid, right? You come up against hard times. And if you want to help kids get through some hard times.

• 2:26:18Jocko Willink?

  You can order this book that I just wrote. Pre-order it. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid. And this is the weird thing about this book. So the other day I was talking to somebody, it might've even been you. I was talking to, after I got done with edits, like the final edits, I was talking to someone and said, yeah, you know, I just finished the final edits. And I said, and it's awesome.

• 2:26:43Jocko Willink?

  And then I felt kind of weird because it's not exactly the most humble way to describe your work, right? Nope. So I felt that like as soon as I said, I said, why am I saying that this book is awesome? That's not like me. I didn't walk around and go, Extreme Ownership is the best book ever. Yeah. I didn't say Extreme Ownership is awesome. I don't say, oh, listen to my podcast. It's awesome. No, I don't say that. I say, hey, you know, it's, if you want to listen to it, it might be interesting to you. Oh, Extreme Ownership is good. You know, you might, might, might get some value out of it. I'm not running around saying, I'm awesome. Yeah. For some reason, I said, oh, this book, I just got done reading it, editing it. It's awesome, right? So I kind of wondered why I said that. And then I realized that while I'm reading, okay, so when I wrote it, right?

• 2:27:27Jocko Willink?

  I wrote it like I was in a 10 year old kid, but that wasn't me. It was the guy that's in the book, Mark. He's the character. Right. So when I read it, it sounds like him. It doesn't sound like me. It sounds like him. Yeah. So I read the book and I, I think it's him that wrote it, this kid. Right, right, right. And I think to myself, someone said, how's the book? And I go, man, it's awesome. So, yeah, um, that's what I realized. And, but it is the kind of story that sounds, it's good to read. Mark, the kid, the 10 year old kid, he's hurting, right? He's made fun of, can't do any pull ups, doesn't know his times tables, doesn't know how to swim.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  And he's getting bullied by Kenny Williamson. Dang. You know Kenny Williamson, we all know Kenny Williamson. I'm going to post a picture of Kenny. I haven't introduced Kenny Williamson yet to the public, but I'm going to get a picture out to him. So he's going through all this trials and tribulations, but luckily his uncle Jake happens to be a big tough frog man. He's going to come and stay with him for the summer. And when, oh, guess what? When, when Mark breaks down, because he doesn't tell his mom what's going on, because his mom just is kind of, you know. Mom, she don't, she doesn't understand. Doesn't quite, you know, you know what she's going to say? Oh, you'll learn that stuff. She's going to say, oh, honey, you're a nice boy. Don't worry about that big bully. He won't bother you anymore. No, no, my mom, actually he will, right?

• 2:28:55Jocko Willink?

  So, so Mark breaks down, kind of. He won't tell his mom, but then uncle comes and his uncle's like, hey, you know, we're going to hang out. What are you going to do? I can't do anything. I can't swim. Breaks down. So you know what uncle Jake says when? Mark gets done listing all of his problems. Laid on me. He says, good. All those problems you got, we can, we can take care of those problems. Those are all solvable. All we gotta do is we gotta work, we gotta study, we gotta train. And that's what they do. So.

• 2:29:29Jocko Willink?

  Like I said, I won't say it's awesome. But from the perspective of the kid, when you look at it, if a kid wrote that, you'd say, that's a pretty good story you got there. And here's the deal, preorder it on Amazon. Why? Why, why preorder it? Let me tell you why. They gotta print it, right? And they're gonna print, they're gonna go, oh, well, you know, it's a kid's book and kids books don't sell very well. So, um, you know, you just, we'll print out 80 copies, whatever, you know. They got their formula. Yeah, they got their formula, right? The formula is not gonna work. Just like it didn't work for Jocko. The formula is not gonna work. So the, the earlier that you preorder it,

• 2:30:09Jocko Willink?

  the more they'll print, the then we won't have the shortage, the scenario, the masses screaming in the streets saying, give us our book. So preorder it and that'll take care of that. While you're doing it, pick up Rape and An King, Iris Chang. These will be on the Jocko Podcast Store. Click through in the book section. No, not the store, jockopodcast.com. JockoPodcast.com, books, and the woman who could not forget, grab that one. Of course, you can also pick up, you can pick up a couple of copies of Extreme Ownership, which is the book written by myself and Leif Babbin. And you know what? Get a few copies and I'll tell you why. Because

• 2:30:48Jocko Willink?

  you gotta give them to your people on the team, right? How many people write to me and say, I gave this to so and so, and they said, thank you. Yeah, this is great. Get them all in the game. You know they need it. If you didn't have it, would you want somebody to give it to you? Let me ask you that question. Yes, you would. It's gonna help you out with your game. So you're gonna want them to do that. And by the way, if you're, if you're at your company, your business, and you need some, some leadership alignment, you got some little situations going on, you can check out Leif Babbin, I, we also, we own a book, we also have a company called Ashlan Front. You can check that out. That's what we do, leadership and management consulting. And that's what we do. We get companies' leadership aligned and on the same page and give them the tools to lead and win. Enough said on that.

• 2:31:33Jocko Willink?

  Also with Extreme Ownership, we got the muster coming muster number two, May 4th and 5th, Marriott Marquis, New York City, boom. Yeah.

• 2:31:44Jocko Willink?

  Now, you know, people talk about, people say, oh, it's a game changer. Right? People say that? I think, and you usually go, oh, really?

• 2:31:55Jocko Willink?

  They got a new flavor of tortilla chips at the restaurant. It's a game changer. No, that's not a game changer. But description, kind of the most common description I've heard of muster number one that we did in San Diego is game changer. So,

• 2:32:11Jocko Willink?

  people are getting after it. Leadership, management, health, jujitsu, the good stuff, of course. I'm going to be there. Of course, Leif Babin, he's going to be there, obviously. Echo Charles is going to be there. JP Danelle, you heard him on the podcast, you're going to see him there. And we, none of us, none of us are going to be hiding backstage. There will not be a backstage. We're not going to be there. We'll be with you out front, talking, discussing, solving problems and crushing things. So, come and get that, May 4th and 5th. And until the muster,

• 2:32:48Jocko Willink?

  while you're waiting to get to the muster,

• 2:32:51Jocko Willink?

  you can still kick it with us.

• 2:32:54Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely. Cause we're on the interwebs. We are on Instagram. We are on Twitter as well. And if you're going to be looking for that one, that Facebook,

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  we're on that one as well. So you can find us there. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink.

• 2:33:17Jocko Willink?

  And

• 2:33:20Jocko Willink?

  finally, thanks to everyone for what you do. In the military and the police and the fire department, thanks to you all for keeping us safe. And then the workforce, the troopers around the world, creating and building

• 2:33:42Jocko Willink?

  what we have. Making the world a better place. Thank you for what you do, grinding and pushing and making things happen.

• 2:33:55Jocko Willink?

  And again, I know that this podcast was hard to listen to. I know that this episode was disturbing.

• 2:34:16Jocko Willink?

  And it was hard for me to read.

• 2:34:21Jocko Willink?

  But again, to me, it is a reminder.

• 2:34:28Jocko Willink?

  It's a reminder to all of us that darkness is real. And as I said, we cannot get lost in that darkness. And we can't let the people we know get lost in that darkness. And it's a reminder that we have to illuminate that darkness.

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  And we cannot, we cannot let evil thrive and permeate, permeate.

• 2:35:00Jocko Willink?

  We can't let it permeate on a mass scale like Man King.

• 2:35:08Jocko Willink?

  Or on a personal level.

• 2:35:13Jocko Willink?

  Like the beautiful Iris Chang.

• 2:35:20Jocko Willink?

  So get out there.

• 2:35:26Jocko Willink?

  Get out there, live your life.

• 2:35:32Jocko Willink?

  Get after it, get after it every day. Go out there into the world.

• 2:35:42Jocko Willink?

  And shine.

• 2:35:47Jocko Willink?

  So, until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:35:55Jocko Willink?

  Out.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  The.

• 2:40:05Jocko Willink?

  The.