47: How to Overcome Set-backs at Work, MMA Fighters VS. SEALS, Prep VS. Winging it, Rituals for mindset, BJJ Gym Loyalty

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:09 - Would an MMA Fighter be a good SEAL? 0:08:57 - Who would win in a fight? MMA Fighter or Navy SEAL? 0:25:43 - No time to explain the "why" to the Troops. 0:32:11 - Advice for people with Poor/ineffective leaders. 0:40:51 - Rituals to get mentally prepared and focused. 1:13:20 - Being prepared VS. 'winging it'. 1:21:16 - Jiu Jitsu Gym Loyalty VS. Freedom to train wherever. 1:59:13 - Getting through and over rough times at work, family, and financial. 2:03:53 - Dope internet, Onnit, Amazon, and Jocko Store stuff. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 47 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  And I went a little long with a couple of reviews. We've done some interviews. We interviewed JP Danelle and I got a ton of really solid books that I'm reading. I'm learning a lot from all of them. And just getting a lot out of those books that I'm reading right now about war and about leadership and about human nature and about life, but kind of failed to answer questions for the last few podcasts.

• 0:51Jocko Willink?

  Questions from the interwebs from everybody out there that's listening and the questions have been piling up. So tonight we're gonna simply dive into some questions from you all out there. So let's get right to it. Echo Charles.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07Jocko Willink?

  Question number one. What do you got?

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Jocko, do you think that most MMA fighters have what it takes to be SEALs? The mental and physical, the brutal weight cut, the brutal fight camp and stepping into a cage with a trained and elite opponent?

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, this is one of those questions where you might think there's like a really definitive answer,

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  but there isn't really. Some MMA fighters could definitely be great SEALs for sure. Some of them actually wouldn't stand a chance as SEALs and there's a lot of things that make people quit and not want to be SEALs or quit during SEAL training. You know, you got the water. Some people don't like the water. Some people are uncomfortable in the water. Great athletes, not good in the water. Some people don't like the cold and they can under, they can take all kinds of punishment of physical nature, but they don't like the cold. Some people don't like heights. You get to the top of a 40 or 50 foot cargo net and you gotta climb over that little pole at the top, get to the other side. Some people

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  don't like that. Some people can't do some simple stuff like memorize. You can't memorize certain facts and there's a, there is a. Intellectual level that you have to have. Some people aren't situationally aware, right? So some of these, like for instance, you know, you know, certain MMA fighters who are real wild and it's one of their good characteristics is that they're, they're kinda out of control. It helps them do wild things and fight unexpected things. You can't be like that in the kill house. Would go in live fire, right? You can't have that. Why you need to be able to suppress that? Some people can't suppress that. So what you'd end up with someone is someone that's gonna have safety issues. Because they're, they're too instinctual and they can't get those instincts under control.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  Some people might have too much endurance, but not enough strength. Some people might have too much strength and not enough endurance. Some people are injury prone. Right? Some people are just injury prone and it's not their fault, many cases, but they are. And, and then you take, so that's sort of the things that it takes to be in the SEAL teams that would, could hold up or trip up somebody that's just standard MMA fighter. Now, the same thing is true with SEALs that would be MMA fighters, right? Or, or could SEAL potentially be an MMA fighter? And there's been, there's been a few SEALs that have, uh, that have, you know, that have fought really well and good fighters and all that. But to make a blanket statement,

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  there's gonna be things that trip people up. And for instance, some guys in the SEAL teams, they're, they're not the best athlete. Their, their athletic ability is not as high as it might need to be, to be a true competitor in MMA. You know, whether that's they don't have the explosiveness, or they don't have the coordination or the flexibility. There's some thing that's just gonna make them not competitive. And normally those guys, I mean, sometimes they might not be the best SEALs, you know?

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  But some of those guys are super smart. And so the reason that they're good SEALs is because they're just, they're just tactically sound, or they're really good leaders. They're never gonna beat people on the range shooting because they're just not that coordinated. They don't have the hand-eye coordination, but they're good SEALs anyways. But when you put them in a purely physical competition like MMA, I shouldn't say most, a more physical, on physical competition like MMA, they're not gonna do well. And of course, obviously, there's a skill set, right? MMA fighters train MMA all the time. That's what they do. They train jiu-jitsu and boxing and wrestling and Muay Thai and Judo. That's what they do. And SEALs also train all the time, but guess what? When you're in SEAL team, you're not just training,

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  just fighting, right? You're training shooting and you're training tactics and you're training patrolling and land navigation and parachuting and combat diving and fast roping and rappelling and waterborne operations, all this stuff. And then on top of all that stuff, which is the stuff that you actually really need to train, then they put on a level of mixed martial arts training to make sure that if you are for whatever reason without a weapon, or if you need to handle somebody that doesn't have a weapon and so therefore you might not be in the right to just shoot them and kill them, you gotta be able to handle yourself. So there's some level of MMA training, some fundamental jiu-jitsu skills, some fundamental striking skills, some fundamental wrestling skills that SEALs get, but it's not at the level of

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  what a real MMA fighter is gonna have. So

• 5:50Jocko Willink?

  with all that, I think there's a, a good percentage of MMA fighters that would make it through SEAL training and be good SEALs. And there's a good number of SEALs that would probably make really good, solid MMA fighters if they chose to do that and focus their lives on it, because there are some common traits with both of them. Both of them take hard work.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  Both of them take some level of physical suffering, right? Grind. Both, I mean, you've been around when we're running MMA camps for people. It's a grind.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  It's a grind. It's a day in, day out grind. Now, there's some luxury to that grind. There's some luxury to that grind because when you're in an MMA camp, yeah, you work hard as hell from, you know, seven in the morning until nine o'clock doing your strength and conditioning. But then you're gonna go home and you're gonna get a massage and you're gonna get, you're gonna have some really good food standing by and you're gonna sit down, you're gonna relax. And then at 11 o'clock, you're gonna go back to the gym and now you're gonna do your, your grappling training. And you're gonna train really hard for an hour, maybe an hour and a half. You're gonna do drills, you're gonna get worn out again and then, then you're gonna go eat some lunch, you're gonna relax, you're gonna go back home, you're gonna lay down, maybe take a little ice bath, then a little jacuzzi.

• 7:03Jocko Willink?

  So there's some luxury to the MMA. And in the SEAL teams, there's not, that doesn't, it's not happening. You're just getting ground down. When you're going through the basic training and when you're going through, you know, the advanced workup training, you're, you're just getting beat down all the time. It's, it's a grind. Uh, but both of them are a grind. And that's why I think though, the work ethic that comes with a really good SEAL or a really good MMA fighter, there's a very strong similarity there. And the ability to take that grind is, is what I think that, that intrinsic discipline is what would make the crossover occur. So that would make a SEAL into a good MMA fighter or an MMA fighter into a good SEAL or a good special operations guy.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and there's, I mean, the crossover, it's ultimately just like you say, it's kinda hard to identify overall, this real general. Cause like MMA fighter is training, sure, he's training to be a better MMA fighter in general, but mainly he's training for an event. So he knows, okay, it's gonna be this many rounds. It's gonna be this long per round. I'm gonna get this much rest for this round and I'm training to win that.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Real specific. So the training is.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  If it's good training, it's gonna best train him to function in that event.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  In that specific environment.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  Combat.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Maybe so, not like that. You're straight up.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, a great example of this is Tim Kennedy, right? Tim Kennedy's a Green Beret, Special Forces guy, and he's a complete beast, you know? And he's a great example of a guy that has the commitment, the discipline, the dedication to be a Special Forces guy. And that translates right into how he works out and trains for fights. I mean, that guy trains like a madman for fights. And I think that's a great example of somebody not only can do one or the other, he does both.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, real time, he's in it, he's fighting November 15th, right? Against Rashad Evans. So, good on him. And I actually had like another follow-on question to this, which is in the same arena.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Who would win?

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, who would win? Who would win in a fight between a UFC fighter and a SEAL Team member? And I'll just go ahead and broaden that out to make it like, you know, a special operations guy? Because people put special operations personnel onto a pedestal of, you know, totally being able to kick everyone's ass, which is...

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, to this, to answer the question in its simplest form, if the, if there was a fight, and it's mixed martial arts competition, so like in a cage, what you were just talking about with a referee, and that's the way it's gonna be, and there's five-minute rounds, and there's five five-minute rounds, and we're gonna see who's gonna win this fight, barring a massive weight difference.

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  And, and a rare special operations guy that has a high level of training. If you take a 175-pound special operations guy, that just trained like a normal special operations guy, has, doesn't have any specialties, we're not talking Tim Kennedy, we're not talking any of these guys that actually are committed and getting into it, and train outside the actual discipline of their job? If it's just a normal run-of-the-mill guy from the special operations community, against a professional UFC fighter in the same weight class? It's...

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  The UFC fighter is gonna win. That's, those are the facts. And again, that's an occasion. And I know this because you know what? I've trained with a lot of really high level UFC fighters. And I mean, I've trained with, with Randy and Tito, and I've trained with Brandon Vera and with Quentin Rampage Jackson. And I've trained with Dan Henderson. And matter of fact, I've trained with Bizbing too. So I've trained with a lot of these guys. You know, none of them at a, like all the time, although Brandon Vera and I used to train together all the time. But, and he's awesome. But I've trained with those guys, you know, I trained with those guys. And you know, not to mention Dean, Dean Lister, I've been training with forever. So I've trained.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  And when I trained with those guys, the majority of the time, I would train grappling specific. So we wouldn't be just doing straight MMA. So we're training in an, in an arena that's geared towards me, you know, some, somewhere that I'm actually good at. Right? I've been training jiu-jitsu for 20 years. And so

• 11:37Jocko Willink?

  when I go in the cage with those guys, or when I've trained with those guys, I'm competitive with them, you know? So, you know, we, we have good training, right? We're, we're, it's not like, yeah, we have good training. It's good competitive training with all those guys. But I've been training this stuff for a long time. So my magical special operations powers, they, I know what they are and they're not real.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna, you have to learn how to fight to be able to hang with these guys. And if you don't know how to train, if I put, you know, because I, when I train with a regular, you know, guy, a SEAL that doesn't train, of course, you, it's jiu-jitsu. You freaking destroy them. They have no chance. So when, if you take a guy that's just a normal guy that doesn't train, they're gonna get their ass beat, just like any other, you get no magical powers. Will you be tough? Sure. Will it? You know, and this is good. Like, you know, you take your average SEAL and you start teaching them jiu-jitsu. They're great training partners because they're strong, they have great endurance, they go freaking hard. They don't quit, they don't give up, they'll keep training with you until they don't tap easy. So yeah, they're great training partners. And the more you teach them, the better they're gonna get. And they're gonna learn quickly because they're gonna be focused on it. So that's all good. But the fact of the matter is, you take a skilled, and, and I, you know, you take a skilled UFC fighter.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  And it doesn't matter that you are a quote unquote, you know, Navy SEAL or special operations guy. That's, that's just not gonna happen. So.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, the, the other kinda thing on this is if you take both people now out of the cage and you put them into a survival type situation, now the, the special operations person is gonna have a much better chance. Because they're, first of all, they're gonna be able to, they're gonna try and avoid the bad situation if they can. And if they do have to fight, they are much more likely to use some kind of a improvised weapon, to do some kinda sneak attack, to have backup, right? In the form of other guys that you didn't realize were with him and all of a sudden you're getting hit in the head with a bottle. It's, the professional fighter, of course, has a huge advantage, but there will be, there

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  is some, when, when you get out of the cage and there's no referee, there's, there's some things that, you know, your average special operations guy is gonna be thinking about that your normal person wouldn't be thinking about in these situations. So, you know, that's why I said, you know, just in general, first of all, don't get any street fights, it's not smart, doesn't get you anywhere. And you see guys that are in the military, just in general, they, they kinda have another little level that they might take things to, right? And that's, that's, you know, you think you're getting a little fistfight, right? You think, oh, I'm in a bar, I'm just getting a little fistfight with this person, the next thing you know, someone's biting off your nose. Right?

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  Or someone's ripping off your ear, or someone's sticking a fork in your eye. Cause that's the kinda thing, like, that's the kinda thing that you take one of these people who's trained and that has a little switch in their head that they go, oh, I'm in a, I'm in a combat scenario right now where this guy's attacking me and I'm gonna chew off his, I'm gonna chew off his nose, or I'm gonna rip off his ear, or I'm gonna gouge out his eyes, I'm gonna do it right now as fast as I can. So, that's why, you know, just, you gotta use caution. And I, and I got actually one of my, one of my buddies, back in the day.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  There was, we were in a bar and some guy was getting cocky and said something to a girl. And, you know, he knew the girl and blah, blah, blah, and there was, whatever, situation. So, my buddy's like, hey, hey, can you go ahead and apologize to that girl? You know, cause that wasn't cool.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  He said it all nice, like.

• 15:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like, just all nice.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:19Jocko Willink?

  And the guy's, you know.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  What? He says, hey, no, no problem. I just, you said something to the girl over there. You see her? Yeah. With the, with the red shirt on? Yeah, you said something to her and it was kind of offensive. So if you could just go, you know, apologize to her, then, you know, we're all good here and, and he's, what do you mean, we're all good? No, I mean, if you can just apologize to her, then we're all good. And, you know, the guy says something like, you know, what are you gonna do about? And as he's finishing those words, the guy was smoking a cigarette. As he's finishing those words, my buddy, in a millisecond, in a nanosecond, like faster than you can snap your fingers, he snatches the cigarette out of the guy's mouth and shoves it with absolute laser target precision,

• 16:05Jocko Willink?

  up the guy's nose, a burning cigarette. So, this dude just, and he put it, he put it in there deep. I don't even know how he did it. Like a ninja move. It's up there. The dude collapses. I mean, can you ima- you know, I mean, you've seen people like put a cigarette out on their arm or whatever and it leaves a scar for the rest of their life? He shoved the cigarette, the burning cigarette, up the guy's nose. The guy collapses to the ground and just like screaming and, I mean, just completely defenseless. So that's the kind of thing. Maybe that guy was a tough guy. Maybe that guy was thinking, oh, I'm a boxer, or, whatever this guy might have been. I don't even know, because the fight was over before it even started, because the guy had a burning cigarette jammed up in his nasal cavity.

• 16:49Jocko Willink?

  In a split second, fight's over. So that's the kind of thing, that, let's be friends with each other. Let's just try and treat each other with respect out there, so we're not getting into fights. Cause I got a bunch of stories like that. And they don't end well. You know, they don't end well. And, yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  That's kind of like, um, like, special operations guys, that's kind of, and, I, I, I'm not, the guy that you're talking about is not a special operations guy, right? That was just, that was just-

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  The guy that did the cigarette up the nose? Oh no. He's a SEAL. Yeah, and this was, this was years ago, um, many, many years ago. And yeah, he did it just like that. And that's the kind of thing like, again, the guy that he's talking to thinks he's a tough guy.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  Thinks, oh, I'm a tough guy. Who, what's this, what's this little, you know, guy talking to me, talking smack, telling me to apologize. I don't have to apologize to anybody. And this was also pre MMA days, but you know, maybe the guy's a boxer, maybe the guy's a wrestler. He may, might be a tough guy. But I guess apparently when you get a burning cigarette shoved up your nose, you're not tough anymore. It just goes over like that.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, even, I mean, even better than, as an example is where. First off, if the guy, you know how, how you said he's saying it all calm, like, hey, just go and apologize. That would have made me nervous right there. Like, oh, this guy's too, anyway, but that's a side thing. So. Um, like, yeah, so a special operations guy, um, compared to MMA guy, he's, he's about every, he's thinking beyond the fight. He's thinking straight up, this is a battle. So how can I win this war, you know? MMA fighter is thinking like, when we fight.

• 18:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  How am I gonna beat you up with all my skills? And he will.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Typically will.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Unless you have equal or better skills, you're gonna get beat up in a fight. Yeah. So, but the tactic, like the other guy, he's thinking tactical. He's thinking, okay, you know, he'll probably, and according to the guys that I hang around with, when they walk in a room. Just like a jujitsu guy, when you, when you, when a person is presented to you, you're thinking jujitsu already. You're thinking, okay, from here, a solid takedown would, would come.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  A special operations guy is thinking, I can stick my pen in this guy's eye real quick.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  There's the door and you know that, you know, let's say, let's say other guys just came in. Okay. So I got five guys. He has like eight before any fight, no fight, no nothing. This is just the way, you know, the way that kind of the mind works. And then, so yeah, if, and he's planning like the, your guy, he had that planner, Eddie.

• 19:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  You know, it's not like he was like, oh, I'm just gonna attack. And that just kind of came about during the process of the attack. He knew like, okay, he had a cigarette. That's part of my plan, my tactic, you know? Um, so, yeah, when you go outside of just the fight.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  Though, too. Like you think about, you, you, you know, the Applegate, Rex Applegate, the whole idea of, of. Self-defense being gross motor movements instead of fine motor movements. So if you ever look at some of the old school, um.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  unarmed combat from the military. It's all based on this idea that when you get in a fight, you want to do these big gross motor skills. In other words, just giant movements with your fist and with your legs. So there's no really fine motor skills because when your adrenaline is pumping and you're in this fight, you're going to make little mistakes. Imagine the fine motor skills it takes to grab a cigarette and shove it up someone's nose in a split second.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 19:57Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know, there's another story and I don't know why Tim, uh, Tim Kennedy and I, we talked about it before we came on the podcast and we, I, we didn't get to it. Maybe we'll talk about it next time because we reviewed the whole story and it's a great story. As you know, he trained at the pit in San Luis Obispo for a while. And seals used to do training up there and one night and all the guys that trained with Tim at the time, they all used to work as bouncers and these guys are pro, you, uh, I want to say, I, I, I wish I could remember the names of the crew, but it's basically the old school San Luis Obispo pit crew, right? So it's, I'm going to say Gan McGee, Tim Kennedy, Chuck Liddell, that crew, right?

• 20:40Jocko Willink?

  Those guys before, you know, the UFC was big, those guys all work as bouncers in San Luis Obispo. So some seals were doing some training up in the area. They went out in town, got into a fight and they, the, the guys got their ass, the seals got their ass kicked. Yeah. Pretty much by, and, and it was, you know, Tim and I were laughing about it because again, this is before the UFC was really popular and they got into a fight. And of course, not only is it a bunch of UFC or at least high level MMA guys that are working as bouncers. So they're sober, fighting against a bunch of drunk teen guys.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 21:15Jocko Willink?

  And it was funny because I, they said, man, you know, because these seals got their asses kicked and they're kind of like came back like, oh man, I don't know, these bouncers were tough. And then I go, well, where, where was it? And they're like San Luis Obispo. And then somehow through the grapevine, through the MMA grapevine, there, somebody told me back, hey, Jocko, those guys that got, it was these guys, it was guys from the pit.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, I was like, oh, okay.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  I know that story by the way, because a guy, he was a new guy. He was, yeah, I'm not going to say his name. I think he's still in, I'm not going to say his name, but he. Man, I'm through the cake nuts, you know, they come by and all the, that's how I met JP, kind of the same way.

• 21:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  But, um, and, but he would always come in the club that I worked at. And so we kind of became friends, you know, so after we're done, we're eating at the same spot.

• 21:55Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  He's like, yeah, man, Chuck Liddell beat me up.

• 21:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Not like we're, you know, beat him down, but we got in a fight and Chuck Liddell beat me up.

• 22:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  You know, like hit him and knocked him down.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  And I actually, uh, yeah, that's what happened. So that was a classic example. And by the way, you know, also something about while we're talking about Chuck Liddell. Uh, Chuck, when Chuck's always been like awesome to vets, especially wounded vets. So Chuck Liddell, hey, if he, if he's bouncing at a bar and you're a vet and you get out of line, you're going to get, you're going to get put down. But if you're a, if you're a warrior, um, that always impressed me about Chuck was he, he did some great stuff for the, for the troops that have been wounded overseas. And that always gave me a lot of respect for him, you know, even more respect than I have for him as being a great fighter. But anyways, that kind of answers the question.

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  Um, and so my overall broad guidance here is train hard to do battle, but do your battles in the gym, not in the street.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  It's only going to get you either put in jail or put in the hospital or both.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember this guy we trained with got his ear bit off, remember?

• 23:03Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Igor, was he?

• 23:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Was he in Navy SEAL or is he?

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he, he, he got out.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:10Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, he got into a street fight.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he knew jiu-jitsu.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  He knew jiu-jitsu? And I mean, he, he, he kicked the guy's ass, right?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:16Jocko Willink?

  He actually, I think he Muay Thai clinched him, put him down on the ground, got cross-eyed.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Was kind of putting the, putting the beat down on this guy.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  And the dude just bit a big chunk of his ear. He bit a chunk of his ear out.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  Bigger than the chunk that, um, bigger than chunk that Mike Tyson did out. I mean, he was a big chunk. I mean, he's, his ear is clearly has a bite taken out of it. Like if you took a bite, a big, nice, solid bite out of a piece of pizza, that's what his ear looks like.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 23:43Jocko Willink?

  And you know, oh, cool. You won the fight.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  And but you have no ear left. So that's a bummer. And that's another thing, that's another point to that.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:51Jocko Willink?

  Is that sometimes these self-defense type people?

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  Think that, you know, oh, well, I'll gouge your eyes out. And that's the indication that I just kinda gave too, that hey, the Navy SEAL might do something tricky to you. Well, the bottom line is that stuff is a lot of times doesn't work. And that's a perfect case. The guy bit his ear off and thinks, oh, the guy's gonna give up. No, he's not giving up. He beat, that means he went even harder. Like, that means, oh, now you got a guy across the side that's about to ruin your shoulder for the rest of your life or the career, then put you to sleep. And it's just a bad situation. So you can't, just another thing about those, those thinking that you don't need to train because you're gonna do a ninja move, or you're gonna shove a cigarette up some guy's nose. No, wrong answer. Or you're gonna bite their ear off, or you're gonna, no, that's not, it's not true. You need to train so that you can get in those positions and that you won't lose these fights.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  And also, you need to train so that you don't have to get in fights. Cause most of the time when you're getting into fights, cause your ego's getting out of control and you can't, you can't handle it in your little brain. You get all, you get all insecure about who you are as a man. So you think, I'm gonna kick this guy's ass. And then you're either getting your ass kicked, you're getting put in the hospital, or you're going to jail, or you got a big lawsuit against you. So be smart.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's rough. Hey, remember on Bloodsport, when he was like, you know, the coin, you watch Blood, remember Bless, the guy with the coin? And he's like, hey, you know, whatever, I'm gonna, if I can grab it before you close your hand, and the girl had something to do with it. And he's like, he grabs it, he closes down, and he's like, ah, you know, I still feel the coin in my hand, kinda thing.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  He looks, he switched the coin. That's kinda what your friend did with a cigarette, when he shoved it in the guy's sinus cavity. Cause it's like, super fast, you know, and but precise.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  But you can't count on that move. That's my point.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  All right. Kicking it off. Let's go to question number two.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Two. Jocko, what if I don't have time to explain the why to my troops for a decision I'm, I'm making during an operation? US Army First Lieutenant.

• 25:55Jocko Willink?

  So, awesome. Thanks for your service, US Army First Lieutenant. Get some. And I, I talk about troops and people in general, never wanting a plan, a plan to be.

• 26:13Jocko Willink?

  imposed upon them and so that's that's what this question is kind of based around because I'm going to say look you know you don't want to just force people to do some plan you want to say hey what do you think you should do and hey here's here's what we're doing and here's why we're doing it this is why it's important that gets people to take ownership of it and therefore they do a better job so he must have heard me say that now he's saying look sometimes I ain't got time to be explaining the why when we're getting this going on and that's why this idea of explaining the why is true 99% of the time in an administrative situation in a situation where things are under control and we've got time to think about what's happening that's when you can go and say hey what's your what's your you know what do you think how do you think we should do this this is why I want to accomplish this this is the commander's intent you can do it all that stuff and that makes sense

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  again in a administrative situation when there's chaos and when there's mayhem and when there's uncertainty actually the opposite is true

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  you actually want your troops to

• 27:16Jocko Willink?

  you they they want they want to see and hear clear directives from you they they want to know what they should do in no uncertain terms and it's you can think of situations where if you've seen let's say a car accident right and you see people that are kind of frazzled if someone steps up into that situation no one's doing anything that they're supposed to be doing if someone says stops up and says you too start dragging that person over there you go call 911 they actually teach that you know when you when you're learning about how to handle traumatic situations somebody needs to step up step back take charge of the situation everybody wants that to happen and

• 27:56Jocko Willink?

  that's true in a combat scenario again this is different from when we're in the rear and we're we're formulating a plan and we're safely going over whatever ideas we have and that's when you want to get input and feedback and you let your subordinate leadership come up with a plan that's all good

• 28:15Jocko Willink?

  But that's not true during a, like I said, during a pressure situation when there's a critical scenario unfolding, people want to be led. Now, when you lead them in those situations, you can still give orders by commander's intent. You can still just give intent. So, an example of that, and I actually wrote my example down, you can say, like, "Delta 16, we need high ground on the other side of that road, make it happen." So then the Delta 16 commander goes, "Okay, I need high ground on the other side of the road. There's a good building, looks like that's the one we could take. Hey, you know, squad, come with me." And they go over and take down the building. I gave them a, still gave them commander's intent, I gave them very clear commander's intent. I didn't really tell them why.

• 28:58Jocko Willink?

  I didn't say, "Hey, what do you think would be best? Do you think it's a good idea to get high ground?" No. I said, "Go get high ground on the other side of the street." That's what I told them to do. So, I'm gonna let them figure it out. They understand what the intent is. You could say something a little bit more specific. You could give them an actual, an actual directive. You could say, "Charlie 16, take two squads, assault building 34 on the other side of the road. Get high ground on the rooftop, go." Now, we have something that's more specific. Again, it's not commander's intent, it's directly I'm telling you what to do. And a lot of times, people are gonna want that. They're gonna wanna hear exactly what to do in these pressure situations. So, depending on the level of experience that your subordinate leadership has,

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  depends on maybe how specific you're gonna get with just giving commander's intent versus giving something very specific to do. Both of those are the right answers. If you have a good, really good leader underneath you, and you can just give them the intent and even let them come up with a plan, cool, go with that. If you've got somebody that needs a little more guidance, give them a little bit more specific guidance.

• 29:59Jocko Willink?

  Now, obviously, one part of that is you gotta have trust. You gotta have trust with the subordinate leadership that you're working with, whether that's you working with your whole platoon, and you've just gotta trust your squad leaders and your fire team leaders. But you gotta build that trust through, through training and through hard training, through coaching them and mentoring. And again, I hate using the word coaching and mentoring because that always gives an air of superiority. And I'm not gonna wanna come off across as superior to other people. Why do I not wanna come off as superior to other people? Well, number one, because it unifies our team more. And number two, because I'm not superior to other people. Right? I'm another person.

• 30:44Jocko Willink?

  And my subordinates, even though they might not have as much time and rank or experience as me, they still might have great ideas and I respect that. So this isn't a, hey, I don't want to use coach or mentor because I'm manipulating them and I want to make sure that they, that they listen to me because I'm being a certain way with them. No, no, I legitimately respect what they're saying. That's the difference here. So, but that's, but my goal is to build trust. And the other way that you build trust, and I've said this before, is by giving trust. You know, hey, I trust that you can do this. Hey, Echo, you gonna go take down the building? I trust your plan. Come up with it and make it happen. Boom. You could do it. You trust me more. When I trust you, you trust me and that's what we want to do. Now, when the operation is over,

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  and, and now you're in a post-operational debrief, then you can discuss why you gave a certain order. Or you can get feedback from them on why they executed a certain way and you can get the questions going back and forth. And through that little question and answer period that takes place during a post-operational debrief, we get to know each other more. We build more trust and we become better as a team.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  So that's the way it works.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  You don't always have time to explain why. Pressure situations, you lead.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that trust thing is big.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 32:10Jocko Willink?

  Next question. I like it. What do we got?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  What advice do you have for those who have weak, poor, or otherwise ineffective leaders? How do you manipulate that situation?

• 32:21Jocko Willink?

  So, again, I, I think I may have actually answered this question before.

• 32:29Jocko Willink?

  But I'll answer it again.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  When

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  when you are in a situation like this, when you've got somebody that's weak or ineffective leader or a poor leader, the answer is always the same. What you do is you lead.

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  You lead yourself and I hope people that listen to the podcast on the regular.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  You all knew what I was gonna say there. You all know that when someone is not leading you, then you lead them. You pick up the slack for the weakness. My leader doesn't want to come up with a plan? Cool, I will. My leader doesn't want to give a brief? That's fine, I will.

• 33:13Jocko Willink?

  My leader doesn't want to mentor the younger troops? That's okay, I will do it. Leader doesn't want to take the blame when something goes wrong? That's fine with me. I'm gonna take the blame. And you think about that one, that one can be tricky. Because you think, well, I'm gonna look bad in front of the, in front of the more senior boss. Now, think about it from the senior boss's position. If, if you work for me Echo and the boss comes in and we, the, the mission was a failure? And I'm the, and I'm the guy that's in charge? And I say, sorry boss, we failed. It was Echo's fault. And Echo goes, hey sir, it was my fault. Here's what happened. Here's the mistakes I made and here's what I'm gonna do to fix it next time. Who do you respect more?

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  Of course, I'm looking to promote you. I actually want to promote you and I'm gonna fire myself for being a guy that's passing the buck and passing the responsibility and not taking ownership of anything. So, imagine what that looks like. Before you get all intimidated by taking the blame for something? And think you're gonna look bad and think you're gonna get fired? Think about what it looks like from the senior perspective. And you actually have to imagine what it will look like underneath you. You have to see it from your perspective, because it's, even when you think about their perspective? You still can be in fear of it. You think, oh, I'm the guy that's taking the blame. I'm the one that's gonna get fired. No. And, and am I saying this like blanket that there's some times where if, if the boss screws something up really bad, like let's say it was something like classified information got left out.

• 34:40Jocko Willink?

  And it was your boss that literally left it out. And you go, no, it was me. Well, first of all, you're not telling the truth, right? So you're not telling the truth. And the person made a mistake that's, that there's no excuse for.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  So that's not a situation that I'm talking about. And if your boss was the type of person that said, yes, I'm going to put the blame on him, I would burn them alive. I'd be like, actually, here's what really happened. So.

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  I'm not talking about that type of situation, but when you're doing an operational thing where there's mistakes that get made and your boss is scared to take ownership of them, take ownership of them. Not that, you will win in the long run.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  Now, now here's the part that is crucial and critical and the most challenging part of this. And that is when you step up and lead, you want to make sure you aren't stepping up and stepping on. Your leader, you don't want to step into their little spotlight. You don't want to impose yourself in their leadership limelight and glory. You don't want to do that. You, you, you can't do that. You want them to get the credit. You don't want to have them be intimidated by you in any way.

• 35:59Jocko Willink?

  And this is hard because when you start taking ownership for stuff, it's very, it can be very. Intimidating for the person that's above you because they think dang, this guy just, he's just a bold bastard that's stepping up and taking charge of stuff. And they might get intimidated at. So. So what you have to do is you have to do some, some indirect maneuver warfare here. And for instance, if they don't want to, if they don't want to come up with a plan, maybe you start saying, hey, sir, what do you think of this? Would this be a good plan? And maybe if you're, if they're not mentoring the younger guys, maybe say, hey, you know what? I want to do this up. I want to spend some time with the guys after work. Do you mind if I have a little session with them? Kind of go over what we learned on last deployment?

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  Or hey, about this new regulatory thing that's come out in the business world and I want to get our younger troops to know it. Do you mind if I teach a class on that? So you're, you're asking them permission and you might even say, you know, hey. I think it would look really good for you too if we were doing this. So you want to make them look good.

• 37:03Jocko Willink?

  And those are the ways that you do, uh, that you step up and lead. But make sure you're not stepping on your leader because that, that, that could backfire. And you could end up in a situation where they feel intimidated and you're getting put in the doghouse. Or fired or demoted or in trouble because they feel intimidated by you. So use caution. If you have a good leader, some leaders just aren't that aggressive. And when you start getting aggressive, they start. They actually like the fact that you're getting aggressive and they like, I mean, I work for some people that love the fact that I would step up and take charge. They had no problem with it because they were good, confident leaders. It's the insecure leader you have to watch out for.

• 37:46Jocko Willink?

  The insecure leader that's worried about looking bad. And that's another, to, to change perspective again on this, when you as a leader have somebody that's stepping up and taking charge. Ask, and you start feeling intimidated by it, ask yourself why. It's probably your ego. You're being a weak leader by being intimidated by your subordinates. If your subordinate is doing your job and doing it better than you. Let, get, step up and start looking, how can you go up the chain of command? How can you look up and out? How, what other areas can you focus on since that leader has stepped up and is making things happen? That's awesome. That is awesome. We want that. That's decentralized command. That's building other leaders underneath you, which is what your goal as a leader should always be.

• 38:36Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, every time I see someone that goes, oh, I got a weak leader. I'm always like, lucky you.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:43Jocko Willink?

  Lucky you. Take advantage of that. Take advantage of it. Do whatever you want. You have such a good opportunity when you have a weak leader above you. Don't look at that. Don't, don't get all downtrodden because man, my leader just doesn't motivate you. Awesome. Motivate yourself. Get char, get in charge of things. Take advantage of it. Make things happen. It's awesome to have a weak leader. I love it. Get after it. It's good. Give me so much mobility in my, in my, in my job, right? I'm so much more mobility. And if I've got someone, hey, if I've got someone that's a strong leader, that's great too. But weak leader is no factor. I'm going to take advantage of it.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like you'd

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I would.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  You're like, you got a weak leader and you're kinda, um, you're not stepping up. You're essentially allowing the group, the team, the objectives to kinda fail in a way. You're kinda allowing it. And then, in a way, too, depends on what you do, but

• 39:44Speaker 01

  in a way, you're kinda be being like, hey, alright, you're allowing the excuse to be valid, you know? Where, which kinda makes it invalid, really, when you're like, hey, I could step up, but hey, it's the leader's fault, as long as it's not my fault. You know, that my leader's not that good, you know?

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  It's, you're really not taking much ownership. If you just point your finger at your leader and say, this is a weak leader.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:05Jocko Willink?

  That's not what we do here. Not what we do at all. And the times where I've had weak leaders, I always took advantage of it, like I said. One time, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, we fired our leader. You know, we had a little mutiny. That only happened once for me, but it happens.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  That, I mean, I, I obviously, I don't know the, all the details of that, but in a way, isn't that you just stepping up and making it happen? I mean, if that's really the impending result, like dang, that's, that's kinda where we're gonna arrive at, really, given us stepping up. If, if that's how it goes down, that's how it goes down. But you stepped up, you solved the problem. If there is a problem, then that was a problem, there's your solution right there.

• 40:45Jocko Willink?

  Yes, up and down the chain of command, you gotta own it, for sure.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 40:52Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Jocko. Next question. Jocko, did you do anything ritualistically

• 41:01Speaker 01

  to get yourself mentally prepared? Focused and in the proper mindset? So, just before carrying out a mission such as self-talk, music, or other actions? You know, get yourself revved up.

• 41:15Jocko Willink?

  Pre-operation preparedness for the mental state. So, people ask this, and it's, and it actually sounds like a pretty cool question, right? I mean, it sounds like a pretty cool question, I'm sure people wonder that. It's a lot of times because you think SEALs and soldiers and Marines must have some

• 41:39Jocko Willink?

  Kind of deep and incredibly meaningful borderline religious ceremony that they go to and through in order to prepare their mind for combat. Maybe it's a, maybe it's a meditation on the warrior code. Or maybe it's an aggressive song to peak your adrenaline.

• 42:05Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it's a breathing exercise. We got a special breathing exercise that's going to heighten my mental awareness. And there's even SEALs, and I use that term loosely, that have written books on that subject of, you know, this warrior mindset and the Navy SEAL breathing techniques and the visualization and things like that.

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  I hate to spoil the romantic vision of the mindful warrior poet, but that actually, that idea, just it is not what happens. And here's the reality. First and foremost, when you are in combat and you're preparing for an operation, you are freaking busy. You are busy. You are planning, you're doing coordination, you're doing gear prep, you're doing briefings, you're making all these adjustments and changes to everything that's happening. You don't, we are scrambling around. I was talking to Leif the other day and there was most of the time, if we were going on

• 43:19Jocko Willink?

  in the field on an operation, we wouldn't be sleeping for 24 hours before we went in the field. You know, maybe we'd get two or three hours, but it was a sleep deprivation before we went in the field because of all the planning and preparation that needed to be done, especially on the big operations with battalion sized or brigade sized operations. There's so much planning and preparation that needs to be done that you don't have, you're not just... You're not just sitting around figuring out what kind of mental prep you're gonna do. There's just last minute detail. There's a phone call. You got a place to hire headquarters. There's a deconfiscation document that you gotta prepare. You gotta, you gotta get stuff done.

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  So taking some, some kind of meditative moment to get in the right mindset, it's just not happening. You just don't have the time for it. Now, that being said, mindset, it is a part of combat, right? And so how did I get in the right mission mindset? Well, the mindset is not achieved in the minutes or even hours before an operation from, you know, chanting a mantra or breathing or meditation or listening to some song that's

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  gonna get you in touch with your warrior spirit. The mindset is achieved in the, the weeks and the months and the years before that specific operation commences. That's another thing. The, the idea from that, actually I was raised on in the nineties in the SEAL teams was like, you're gonna do a mission. We used to joke about it called the big mish, right? The big mission was gonna come. It was gonna be one mission, right? And you could get, hey, we're gonna plan for it. We're gonna plan for it for weeks, maybe even months, and we're gonna be able to visualize everything and we're gonna have all this time. The reality is overseas, you know, since the war started, man, you're doing an operation every night. You're going out. You got another week, come back, you're planning for that one.

• 45:24Jocko Willink?

  And when that one gets canceled for whatever reason, there's two more that you're planning for. You're running out to grab intelligence. You're meeting with somebody else. It's just constantly ongoing. So we weren't ever preparing for one mission. We were planning, we were preparing for mission after mission. We'd have five, six, seven, 10. We'd have 10 operations in the hopper at any given time that we're planning and preparing for. We're gathering intelligence for. We're setting up. We're doing route studies for four or five different operations at one time. Then finally one rises to the occasion, boom, we're gonna go hit that one. The next night, another one's up the top, we're gonna go hit that one. So again, this idea that I think came from the nineties of, hey, we're gonna do the big mish. And we're gonna have to get into mental mindset. No, we lived in the mental mindset. But that mindset came from the training that we went through, the grueling training through

• 46:07Jocko Willink?

  the repetition of the fundamental skill sets.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  The mindset comes from the discipline. From waking up early, from studying tactics, from understanding the enemy.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  From all those unmitigated daily disciplines. That's where the mindset comes with. It comes from, and I'll tell you, on top of that, on top of that, you have to come to grip

• 46:44Jocko Willink?

  with some pretty horrific potential outcomes, right? You have to accept some solemn possibilities like that you might be severely wounded or that you might be killed.

• 46:59Jocko Willink?

  And you also have to think that about the guys, your friends. That is another possibility that you have to think about. But for yourself, you you have to accept that possibility. You have to accept that potential outcome that you could die and you have to accept that. Now, you don't want it. Of course, you want to live, but you have to accept the fact that in the game, the game of combat, you could very well die.

• 47:39Jocko Willink?

  And I knew that. And I was okay with it. But I had come to that conclusion a long time before whatever operation I was getting to roll out on one particular night during a six-month-long deployment.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  So, the mindset is built over time and like knowledge that you have, the mindset, it becomes so ingrained. That knowledge becomes so ingrained that you don't have to cram for it. Like you'd cram for a final exam. You don't have to cram for the test of combat in the last minute. You already know. You already have the confidence. You know you've done everything possible to prepare mentally, to prepare physically, to prepare emotionally.

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  And then, when the call comes, and you put on your camis, and you fill up your canteens, and you put on your helmet, and you lock down your night vision, you lock and load your weapon to roll out the gate.

• 48:45Jocko Willink?

  You're ready.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  You ever seen the movie Gone in 60 Seconds?

• 48:52Jocko Willink?

  No. I've seen no movies that you've seen.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Bruh, not a

• 48:58Speaker 01

  There's a part where they're about, they're carjackers, a team of car thieves. They gotta do this mission to save the brother.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  You know, they're all retired, that's why, but they gotta do, you know, this one last mission.

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  The big mish.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  The big mish, yeah, exactly.

• 49:12Jocko Willink?

  So they go through a thing, get into a mindset drill? So check it out. Imagine if in the movie, they were doing that mission every single night?

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:19Jocko Willink?

  Eventually they're not going through that drill every night because they know they've prepared, they know they got their mind right, and they're gonna go out and execute the operation. That's the difference.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Or maybe they would do it every night. This is what they do.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  Alright, let's hear it.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  They put on Low Rider, you know, the song?

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Then they just kinda listen to it, and then they go. Super subtle.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Maybe check it out.

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, some guys, you know, crank up a song, you know, we had speakers, we actually had speakers outside, sometimes the guys would be blasting some music, but it was no like ritualistic thing where we all sat there, closed our eyes, and listened to the same song at the same time.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Me, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I mean.

• 49:58Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? I was, you know, I was either, what, my two combat deployments? I was a platoon commander, I was a task unit commander. So, I was busy. You know, I was, all that planning stuff that I'm talking about was, was me if I was going out. If I wasn't going out, then I wasn't doing anything ritualistically to get ready to go out.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:17Jocko Willink?

  But, you're busy. People don't understand how busy you are in combat, not just while you're on the battlefield, but when you're back in the rear, uh, preparing to go, or preparing or planning for operations.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would imagine some people, you know, cause even the small, I mean, really, how deep, how far you wanna stretch the word like ritual, right? So the- I'm sure some people would, right? Maybe like

• 50:38Jocko Willink?

  Like I said.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Get like a lucky thing or I don't know.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  Hey, people carried less, now you're getting into a different realm here. You're talking about superstition.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Well.

• 50:44Jocko Willink?

  And you're also talking about, so I had certain patterns that I followed, right? But those patterns were not for my mental state. They were to be prepared.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 50:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, I've talked about how I had a cot filled with my gear. And when I put all that gear on, I was ready.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:58Jocko Willink?

  Right? That's, that's, that's, and I put the gear on the same way every time. Cause you're going through a process and a procedure so that you make sure you get everything right. Even when I'm coming to record the podcast, I do the same thing every time. I, I get this ready, I get that ready, I print the stuff out. I, you know, I bring the same pens, the same stupid pens. I bring them all the time because I have a pattern that I go through so that I'm ready for what we're gonna do.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:19Jocko Willink?

  That's a standard operating procedure to be ready for the operation. Whether it gets me into mental state? Yeah, I guess it does get me into a little mental state.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  And technically that is a ritual.

• 51:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, then you, then I guess I'm busted.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  There you, no, no, no, no, you're the man, of course, for sure, you're not busted.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  No, I think I am busted because that is definitely a, a ritualistic

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:39Jocko Willink?

  thing to go through. And if I talk about, uh, being in combat, sure. We, you're getting your gear on, you're zero out, you know, you're, you're programming your radio, you're getting a radio check those. But again, uh, the reason, uh, it doesn't really hit me as a ritualistic thing. Because those are, those are standard procedures that you're going to prepare for the mission. You're not, they're physical things that have to be done.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  They're not for mental preparation. Now, does your mind know what's coming? Yes, and I'll tell you a classic example is when you put down your night vision. Which for those of you that don't understand this, you have a helmet on and you have night vision on it. It, it can flip up where you're just looking through your regular eyes. But then when you black out the vehicles and you flip your night vision down, you're in a different world.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:22Jocko Willink?

  You're in a green world of darkness where you know what's about to, you're about to do. So whenever I flip my, you know, night vision down. He would always give me a sensation. Again, it wasn't, this is preparing me. I knew that it was time. Right? There's a difference. There's a subtle difference. No difference?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  No, there, I'm sure there is a difference, but there's some, there's overlap there where I think that is. I mean, like I said, it depends how loose you want to use the word ritual, but technically, yeah, like remember you said one time, you said something about before you guys roll out, everyone starts it, they're in it at the same time. Ritual, right there.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  Ritual, however, standard operating procedures. Yeah, it's a functional thing. Like you've got to put your night vision goggles down. You have to do that. You, it's what you're gonna do. And when you do that, because you've done it a hundred times before, you know that that's now game on.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  But if, if you're just putting your night vision goggles down, that's not really the ritual. But if it's like, I'm gonna put my night vision goggles down after I do this every single time, that's a ritual. Or we all do it together, like when it's repeated.

• 53:25Jocko Willink?

  You're calling it a ritual? You're putting a, you're putting a ritualistic flavor to it? It's a standard operating procedure. It's a process. Right, but I'm saying it's not ritualistic because there was no embedded deeper meaning that was put on top of it purposely, right?

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like, it's not very ceremonial.

• 53:46Jocko Willink?

  We're trying to make it, we're trying to make it in some that's not, right? Do you follow the same standard operating procedures? Yes. So do you, and, and you know, when we talk about fighters, you know, I've been with a lot of fighters and, and coached them. And those guys have little ritualistic things to get, sometimes it is music, right? Cause they're gonna go fight a five minute round and they're gonna listen to something or they're gonna, they're gonna sit there and close their eyes and think about what's important to them. That's fine. I'm telling you, when I was overseas, I didn't have time to do any of that. We were running around, never once did I say, stand by, hey, no one talk to me for the next three minutes while I get in the zone. No, I was in the zone because I spent my, you know, did a workup, did, spent my time in the teams, went through training,

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  you know, shot my gun, knew, knew what I was doing. And so I didn't need to get in the zone. And I think that's what, I think that's why, I think I'm sensitive to this. And here's why I think I'm sensitive to this. I think I'm sensitive to this because I think people try and and tell, tell people or sell people on the fact that if you do these things, it will prepare you mentally for, you know, a pressure situation. And that's what bothers me about it. That's what bothers me about it is, hey, if you do this, if you, this is what it is. If you take this shortcut, then you will be prepared. Because I would never tell someone,

• 55:10Jocko Willink?

  "Oh, you want to fight an MMA fight? You're gonna get in the cage? Cool. Here's what you need to do to train for that." "Three minutes before you enter the cage, go into a room, shut your eyes and think about how you're gonna win the fight." That is not true. Now, this is, I guess this is where you've just, you've just gotten this out of me, Echo. You took me to what, to my point that I, that I believe in, right? That is not what prepares you for the fight. What prepares you for the fight is the years and years of training that you've done to get there. The last three minutes, you can have a ritual and it can put your mind in the right place, but that's not what's putting your mind in the right place. What's putting your mind in the right place is the months and months and years of training. Same thing with on the battlefield. If someone said, "Hey, I'm about to go execute a,

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  a direct action mission. What should I do to prepare for that?" I wouldn't say, "Well, what you need to do is listen to your favorite Motorhead song." No, that is not gonna help you. What you need to do is you need to do this. You need to go this shooting. You need to work on these type of tactics. You need to understand what to do when someone gets wounded. You need to have standard operating procedures for how to go into and out of buildings. You need to understand how to clear rooms with open doors, closed doors, corner fed rooms, all these different things that you need to know. I would tell you all of that stuff, but what I don't like is when someone says, "Oh, what you need to do to be ready is do these, do this last fraction of a thing." And that's what's gonna prepare you for combat. No, not true.

• 56:37Jocko Willink?

  What prepares you for combat, what prepares you for a fight, what prepares you for a tough business decision, what prepares you for a pressure scenario that you're going into, isn't the three minutes before. That's the icing on the cake. So I don't want to focus on that. I want to focus on the daily disciplines for months and weeks and years that led you up to the point so that when I went in combat for the first time and shot my gun for the first time, it wasn't about the song that I listened to. It wasn't about the breathing that I did. It was the discipline and the training that got me there. So maybe I was a little bit hard coming out of the gate on this idea, but that's why I was hard and I didn't really understand that in my own mind until

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  you started leading me down this road. Because that stuff does, when I see somebody trying to sell that, I don't like that.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:26Jocko Willink?

  I don't like that. Do I have rituals? Yes, I absolutely. I mean, I even have rituals for when I get up in the morning and what I do, you know, I fill my water bottle. My water bottle every night when I go to bed is in the same spot. When I get up out of bed in the morning, my water bottle is there. I put my, you know, I go very quietly in the bathroom. We talk about this. I do what I gotta do in there. I come out, it's dark. I grab my water bottle. It's already where I know it's gonna be. I don't need to turn on any lights. It's where it's supposed to be. That's a ritual. I go to the kitchen. It's dark in the kitchen. I fill up the water bottle by sound. Cause you know how that's a little beautiful sound as it fills up, it gets higher and higher and higher, then boom, you kill it. Now I walk out, I flip on a light in the back of the house, put the shoes on. Because I'm not bothering anyone. So there's a little ritual there. When I walk up to the gym, plug in the music and now it's time to get after it.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  So there's a ritual there. There's, there's, even when I go to the gym and do jujitsu, I have a little ritual that I follow there. I come in, I tape the fingers, I do what I gotta do. For those of you people that are gonna ask, I tape the, the, the two fingers on my right hand. My pinky and my, and my ring finger on my right hand. Cause my pinky's got a little judo finger, right? So I, I tape those two together. It also gives me a little bit of that friction on the guillotine. At least that's what I've told Echo to further intimidate and scare him off the guillotine. So there's some little ritualistic things there. If Dean's there.

• 58:47Jocko Willink?

  When I'll go in the sauna for five minutes and just get a little bit warm before he and he sees me sweating. He doesn't like to see me sweating because he knows that that I'm.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  It's on.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  It's on, right? So I'll go in there just to send a little mental vibe to Dean that you know what? Jock was already sweating. He says, damn.

• 59:03Jocko Willink?

  So those ritualistic things, those are the fraction, the tiniest part of what you need to do to prepare. The preparation, the mindset doesn't come from those things. You wanna, you wanna close out that final bit and make it something ritualistic that gets you in the right mindset? Do it, but that is not where the money is made. The money is made in everything that leads up to those final three minutes or two minutes or five minutes of ritualistic behavior that you have to get you ready to rock and roll.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  So.

• 59:36Jocko Willink?

  Bring it.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  What can we extrapolate there? So the question is, no. Really? I mean, you maintain really because the question is, do you do anything ritualistically to get yourself mentally prepared, focused and proper mindset? So you don't, but you do do things that are rituals, but that's not the question. This is one of the questions. So you're the rituals you're talking about in regards to.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. What rituals do I have? What rituals did I have in, in, in, in preparing for combat? Training my ass off, being prepared, studying the enemy, being in top physical condition. Those are the rituals. The rituals are the training. And the rituals, like I said, for the 20th time, that little tiny thing, those are just standard operating procedures. And when you do those ritualistically, then you're, then you, number one, you won't forget anything. You'll know that you have all your gear. You'll know that you've done what you're supposed to do. And when you put your night vision goggles down, you'll know that it's on.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Straight on.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  And you'll be mentally prepared.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  So your standard operating procedures are rituals by technicality?

• 1:00:43Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  And for those of you that aren't watching this on YouTube, Echo just looked extremely proud of this statement right there.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't proud of the statement.

• 1:00:54Jocko Willink?

  By technicality, they are.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  I'm proud, I'm proud that, that I had some influence over you.

• 1:01:00Jocko Willink?

  I don't wanna, I don't wanna completely beat a dead horse. Um, because, but, but what bothers me about that idea is people thinking they can cut corners.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  On the preparation. You can't cut corners. That's my point.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  You can't cut corners and think you're gonna get the three-minute preparation to be ready for combat, to be ready for battlefield, be ready for a pressure situation, to be ready for a tough business decision. You don't get ready for that in three minutes. You get ready for that for months and years. That's how you prepare for it.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Bro, I was, I used to play football at UH and we had this, I don't know if you ever watched like football camp. No, I'm, no, I'm laying down the set. We already knew that though.

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Anyway, so I was a wide receiver and for the drills.

• 1:01:45Jocko Willink?

  You were a wide receiver?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  I was a lot smaller back then. I was like 180, 185, whatever. Nonetheless, one of the drills was this, um, if you know football camp, you'll know this. It's like these, it's a motor on a big tripod and on the motor are these spinning tires. And they spin this way. There's two, there's three of them. So this, they go, they go on this weird skewed angle. So basically you load a, a football from the back and you push it through and it shoots the ball like, yeah. And there's different speeds and stuff like that. So, uh, my coach, what was his name? Coach Miles. My, I forget if that was his first name or last name. Anyway, Coach Miles, he wasn't a very nice coach.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  So he would like drill us with it, right? Which is fine. That, that part is cool because it's training, but the, the part that I didn't think was very cool was if you missed, like there was, you would pay a price, like he would yell at you. Sometime, yeah, he'd make you run like if you missed. It wasn't like, it was like, to me, the punishment, it was wrong. Like, the system was wrong.

• 1:02:47Jocko Willink?

  The punishment didn't fit the crime?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it wasn't like, this isn't gonna make you better to put more pressure on this drill, you know? It was more like, hey, look, eh.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  But he wants to cause stress.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, good, good. I didn't feel that at the time, and now, I mean, I'd have to think about it more. I haven't thought about it in a number of years.

• 1:03:04Jocko Willink?

  Nowadays, your viewpoint would be different.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Maybe, but maybe not, though. No, you're, I, no, I don't think so, only because I think that you're trying to get the best out of these people. You know, for a specific situation.

• 1:03:13Jocko Willink?

  But on game day, there's gonna be a lot of pressure, and you can actually get used to that stress.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  By inoculating yourself to it, by him saying, look, you gotta catch this ball, or you're gonna pay the man.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, or just get better at catching, so you can, you, no, no, so you could focus on getting better at taking stress, or get, getting better at catching.

• 1:03:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I will give you that. I will give you that. Now, what I would say is that he should have combined both of them, and he should have given you guys ample time to just practice the catching part, and then later, up the stress.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Hey, man, bro, that would have been great if he did that. Fact is, he did not. So, back to the, the ritual, mental preparation, whatever. So, that, it would be stressful for me as a young guy. I was like seventeen when I started football, you know, late, anyway, so, I'm like one of the young guys, and he'd, and, so, when he'd, he'd do stuff like to make it harder and harder and harder. So, of course, you're gonna miss. So, there's this one where he's like, ball, and then, you know, you're supposed to turn around, and the ball's on its way, full speed thing, it's like, and the thing comes real hard. Anyway, so, you'd miss, and then he'd get all mad. So, anyway, I'm stressed now. It's not, every practice, I'm going in stressed about that one drill that we're gonna do.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  So, before practice, we had this cool, real, real nice facility, there, there's this lounge where everyone would just kinda cruise and mellow out, cause he goes, you know, from class to, to pre-practice prep, and then some meetings, and then practice. There's a little bit of downtime where you can mellow out in the lounge. So, in the lounge, I'd close my eyes a lot of the time and be like, just visualize that ball, only for the drill, not in scrimmage time. Scrimmage time, no problem, but I'm visual, I'm mentally preparing for the drill. I don't know, this, it just doesn't, anyway. So yeah mentally mentally visualizing the ball coming at crazy speeds and I'm catching them boom catching them all in my little visualization.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  So I go and as time went on, I kept doing that over and over and over. Didn't help the drill at all. Failed like as far as any kind of effect, I would catch some and miss some get yelled at more stress next day even more same thing.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would, I would say this first of all, visualization of a, a physical technique is proven to help. So it didn't help in your case. What I would have said would have been the most helpful for you is to say, you know what? I don't care what this guy does to me.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't care if I miss this ball and I'm gonna go out there and have fun.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  And you know what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna act like a maniac.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna have such a good time running down the field and when he calls ball, I'm gonna turn around and do my best to grab that thing. If I don't grab it, I'm gonna do 14 somersaults and I'm gonna have a good time. And so that would you were taking the pressure off yourself because that's probably what was, what was, uh, jamming you up as you like to say.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  That was it.

• 1:05:53Jocko Willink?

  And, and I'll say this too. Back to this whole idea, right? Another thing that, that I, that I feel this sort of allergy to this type of thing is it's sort of like, uh, on the Tim Ferriss episode where I was just answering questions. Someone asked about motivation and I said like, look, motivation isn't, isn't your friend, right? Motivation is gonna go up and down. I feel like, uh, you know, what's gonna be good is discipline, discipline. And so there's really, that's the difference between what I'm talking about here.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Jocko Willink?

  When we're talking about, hey, what do you do to get into mindset? Well, that's really talking about, you know, your mental mindset of motivation. No, but what I'm talking about is discipline, standard operating procedures that actually prepare you for what you're about to do. Not that motivates you temporarily by listening to a good song or by doing some breathing drill that gets you mentally, but no, the discipline is what's gonna make you. Mentally prepared for what's about to happen. So again, that's why I think I'm, I'm a little bit stuck in the mud on this one. And I'm trying to have an open mind, but I think those are the key components for me. I don't like when people try and sell shortcuts on stuff.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Jocko Willink?

  And make it, you know, hey, you'll be great if you do these three minutes. No, actually you won't. You need to do everything else. You need to do the hard work. And, and people buy into that. Why do they buy into that? Cause they want to take, everyone wants the quick and easy, you know? I mean, people that listen to this podcast don't.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  People that are here, we, we want to get in the game fully.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, two hours, two hours in a book.

• 1:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no shortcut there.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  No shortcuts. So I think that's the difference is people, some people sell that. And there's too many people that buy into it when what they should be buying is, hey, hard work. And dedication and discipline is what's going to mentally prepare me.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Not this other stuff.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Jocko Willink?

  At the end.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah. So really, like I said, the SOP by, by technicality, it's a ritual. But here's the thing about it being only technically a ritual. Because if you take that away. Not necessarily the SOP, because that has a full on function.

• 1:07:58Jocko Willink?

  You know what? To, I hate to cut you off, just to talk about what we just, what we're talking about here, right? Cause, cause I said, hey, with the podcast, and I've said this before, we have a ritual that I do, I, you do it too. When I come, I brew the tea, I'm, put my, my pens in, I do the folder, I print the stuff out. I have, I put, put the knives in the bag. I have a ritual that I go through. But to case in point, case in point, that is not what prepares me for the, for the episode.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  That's what I was gonna say.

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  That is not what prepares me for the recording. What prepares me for the recording is what, is spending 10 hours, 12 hours, 15 hours diving into a book, looking up words I don't know, doing background studies on battles that I don't understand, that are mentioned offhand, researching some general that gets mentioned. That's what prepares me. That's what gets me in the mindset to record a podcast, not the ritual. The ritual doesn't actually mean anything without that core, deep preparation that's done. And that kind of settles our point here.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I by no means.

• 1:08:57Jocko Willink?

  Very nicely.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was going straight technical and you, um. I think you're absolutely correct and sometimes, because I would fall like especially when you're young, you're like just anything that'll help me, you know, like do I did I tie my shoes in the wrong? You know, like superstition goes in there, you know, you know, that feeling where you're like dang, you're just stressed about something. So anything that'll help. And then after a while, you kind of go to yourself, man, it doesn't matter what order I put my shoes on right now. It doesn't matter what color my socks are right now, you know? Man, I used to have this thing where I'd be stressed to go to school for whatever it is like intermediate, you know, when you're like a new schooler, it's just a little bit stressed, not full on, but still is looking for little things. So. Is this weird? Even thinking about it right now is so weird. Um, so I'd have, uh, you know, music in your car on a tape. So.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  I liked, uh, Bushwick Bill, who's a rapper and, and Ghetto Boys anyway.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  No idea.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  And it had, you know, a bunch of swearing in it, but it was just a great, great album and I liked it. But I had it strangely in my mind, if I listen to like negative stuff, I'd have a negative day. And some people might say like, well, that's kind of true, but no, I, I don't think so. I think it doesn't matter really what music you listen. Maybe it might, certain music might put you in a certain mood, but that's up to you.

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're actually going in a whole nother direction, which I'm fine with going there. Um, I have always found that music to me, like the words and the music, I'm barely registering what they are. I, I know them. I'll be, you might even be singing along with them in my mind, but, but. The words generally aren't having a huge impact. I mean, I've listened to all kinds of rock and roll music throughout my years.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  If I would have followed, followed along with 10% of the lyrics, I would probably be a heroin addict in the gutter somewhere, right? Cause you can't just listen to music and obey what they say. In fact, you shouldn't do that. Most music is, a lot of music is negative, right? I mean, a lot of music is very negative in what it's saying. So.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  So what you're saying is the ritual of listening to the right music is important or not important?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  No, not important at all. I'm just saying I used to like, kind of, I don't want to say fall for that trick, but I was young, I was like in intermediate school.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  So you believed it, you believed

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  At the time.

• 1:11:16Jocko Willink?

  If you listen to negative music, you might have a negative day.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Negative day, yes. And not the kind, not the kind where it's like, I'm gonna listen to this and then I choose to go, this will fire me up to do whatever. It wasn't that. It was a superstition is what it was. And I'm saying, my point for the whole thing is, you don't like how people like basically hang their success or failure on some visualization or some ritual.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  And agree then, that the point I'm making is, I would have to like, remind myself of that. Like, man, the music, like, nothing bad's gonna happen to me because I listen to Bushwick, Bill, talk about this thing.

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  I got you. That, I will say this though, that is a conscious decision that you made.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Jocko Willink?

  Whereas if you were just listening to, I mean, music changes your mood. Music changes my mood for sure.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Jocko Willink?

  And when I hear a certain music, I get a certain reaction to it and I will get into a certain emotional state from listening to a song that's about something or not something else, you know? That will have an effect on me. Now, I don't know that, my point is that the lyrics themselves don't really mean anything. I guess, I guess if they do mean something though, and they hit me a certain way. Music definitely will put you in a different mood, in my opinion.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you let it, like, if you're using it or something like that.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, I would say it puts you in a mood unless you don't

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Don't let it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you just listen to it, now there's times where you could be listening to, you know, whatever music and it's just not gonna hit you, but some music that you have, might have a core thought about. Now, does this go back and negate my earlier point that music doesn't affect my mindset? Does that do it? Might, right? Now I'm going back on what I said? Cause I said, oh, music doesn't affect your mindset? Uh, I guess I am going back on that.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, but ultimately, I think, I think really it holds up where you

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  The, the, look, the music

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  Because here's the deal, here's the deal. You're going into a stressful combat situation and you didn't get a chance to listen to your song? Can you afford to be like, oh no, I can't go, no? So that's, that's another reason why, yes, I'm staying with my original point.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree, I agree with you. Stick with that. Don't let anyone sway you.

• 1:13:18Jocko Willink?

  Don't let them.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Still a ritual by technicality though. Jocko.

• 1:13:23Jocko Willink?

  Is this question number five now or?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Yep. Can you speak about winging it?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  And when it's best to just go for it and when making a plan without the time to do so is the best course.

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I can definitely talk about that. Um, well, winging it is never the first choice. And when, when you see people in the, you know, in the SEAL teams or in the military, if they're winging something, it's something that they've practiced a lot. It's something that they have planned broadly before. And they have so much experience in that, whatever that type of operation that they can actually get away with it, right? And a good example, if you take a jujitsu example, like Dean, Dean Lister, he can wing it in a match. Jeff Glover can do that to a ridiculous level of just winging it in competition and just show up and just do what he does.

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  Because he's got, you know, those guys at that high level have a mental fluidity that's going to be very helpful for them. Now, there's other people that are very high level jujitsu players that don't wing it. That are very much more methodical and I'm sure there's some cases with both Jeff and Dean, where they probably should have been more methodical, but I mean, Jeff is straight up suicidal in many of his matches. I mean, and that's what's beautiful is, is that he moves so much so rapidly that people can't hang with him on that level in most cases. Um, so that's why he, he is winging it, like every movement that he makes is winging it.

• 1:15:01Jocko Willink?

  But case in point, he's puts himself in those situations all the time. You come to the gym and watch him train, he's letting people put him in the worst possible situations and figuring a way out of it. So the reason he can wing it in the competitions, because he's, he's, he's put a practice and discipline there in the background. And if you saw my SEAL platoon or task unit, we could wing it on operations all the time because we were prepared, because we knew each other so well, because we had standard operating procedures that covered so much of the things that would happen during an operation where we would be quote unquote winging it. So even though we're winging it, we're not really winging it because we have all these standard, standard operating procedures in place

• 1:15:45Jocko Willink?

  that we didn't really need to plan, but.

• 1:15:49Jocko Willink?

  If you have time to plan, then of course, plan. Do as much planning as you can. Dig in and plan every detail that you can plan. Now, when it does come to planning, I think the most important part of a plan, the thing that makes a plan the most effective is its flexibility. And making a plan that is so flexible that when you do the actual operation and you come up against unexpected things which are absolutely going to happen, you have the flexibility, you have options, you have contingency plans to deal with.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Now, so plan as much as you can, but the problem is, with all that emphasis on planning, sometimes people become obsessed with planning. And they plan, and they plan, and they plan some more, and they plan, and they plan, and they plan, and they don't want to execute. And if they do execute, they execute late. They miss their opportunity. So that's why, that's why Patton said, I got this note written down here. Patton said, "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." Right? That's what we're talking about. Just come up with a good plan. Don't come up with a perfect plan that takes you two weeks to come up with. That's not going to help you. That's something you need to keep in the front of your mind.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  And that is especially applicable in a tactical decision that's being made in the field. Right? Something that is unfolding, you see the enemy maneuvering, you come up with a quick plan and you execute. Because every minute that you're waiting to execute, the enemy is maneuvering on you. That, that lull in enemy fire, that's not them retreating and running away. No, your mindset has to be that that's them maneuvering on you. They're getting a better position, they're setting up, getting ready to crush you. So don't let that happen.

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Make a plan and go and that comes back again to flexibility. If you come up with a good plan and you go, as that plan is being executed, you gotta pay attention. You gotta pay attention and watch how it's unfolding. Don't put the blinders on and you've got your plan and now we're gonna go and we're not gonna look around anymore. We're just gonna follow the plan. No, you have to be observant. You have to observe, orient, decide, and act the whole time. You can't just come up with a plan and stay on that track because when you come up with a fast plan, you're not gonna have thought about every single detail. And you don't know what the enemy's gonna do anyways. You don't know what your competitor's gonna do. You can't guarantee that. So when you see them start to react to your, what you executed, now you gotta be ready to react yourself.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  And get the, the upper hand and take the offensive. So, there's an, there's one more, there's one more little dichotomy to this. And I'll just say it, even though I'm saying you gotta adapt your plan and you need to adjust as things happen, you also wanna stick to your plan. Those things are completely the opposite of each other, right? I'm saying adapt and change your plan as needed, but I'm also telling you to stick to your plan. But for instance, if you rehearsed a, a, or if you have a standard operating procedure for your order of patrol. So this is the, the order of, you know, the point man and it's, it's Jones and then Smith

• 1:19:22Jocko Willink?

  and then Washington and then Jefferson and that's your order patrol, right? And those guys are always marching in that order until we know each other. We know how to work together. We have fire team integrity. We have a standard operating procedure. And we're going to attack a target. And when we get closer to the target, we see that, hey, you know what? Maybe it'd be better to move this guy over here and move this guy over here. And so let's, let's change our standard order of march, our standard patrolling order, because it'll, it'll be easier when we get to the target.

• 1:19:55Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that. Don't do that. You have your standard operating procedures for a reason. You have them and when you start pulling yourself out of the standard operating procedures for no good reason, that's gonna come back and bite you. It's, it's not gonna work out good. So, be flexible. This is gonna be an interesting statement. Be flexible, but stick to the plan, but be ready to adjust, but stick to the plan. And that's totally contradictory and I know that and I apologize. But that is what leadership is. Leadership is balancing those dichotomies and leadership is knowing when,

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  hey, we stayed with our standard operating procedure, we're gonna hold through it through this little thing right here. You know, there's been, there's a little small terrain feature we didn't expect. We could change our plan right now and adapt to that in the unlikely event that, or the, the small chance that something happens and we'll be better for it at that moment.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  No, stay with your standard operating procedure. But then when something dramatic happens and you need to make a change, you do it aggressively, you do it dynamically. And then you continue to observe, orient, decide and act and stick, keep beating the enemy inside the oodle loop.

• 1:21:16Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 1:21:21Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Jocko.

• 1:21:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  And Echo.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  BJJ ex-partner is training in another gym. Now my head coach banned him from coming back.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Question. So dojo loyalty versus freedom?

• 1:21:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  What up?

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  So there is some tradition behind this, actually. Yep. And the tradition is actually the tradition of the crayon.

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  That's so crayon is a it's a Brazilian word and it's a name, right? It's a it's a name from a character in a Brazilian soap opera. You're looking at me like you didn't know that. I didn't know that. Oh, you didn't know this. I mean, I know crayon. Yeah, of course, everyone knows crayon. Yeah. Jiu Jitsu. Crayonchi came from it's a character in a Brazilian soap opera. That was like a a backstabber. Oh, damn. Like an unloyal guy. Yeah. Right? And so when especially back in the early days for me and Jiu Jitsu, which was pretty early days in America for Jiu Jitsu in the nineties.

• 1:22:37Jocko Willink?

  If anyone was going from gym to gym or even left a gym permanently to go to another gym, they were labeled this horrible word. It was the it was the worst thing you could call somebody, right? Was a crayon. Okay. Yeah, this guy's a crayon. And that meant that they were a traitor. Yeah. That's what it meant. And there's also so that's there's a tradition of it in Jiu Jitsu, right? Of this idea that if you change gyms or you train at a different place, you're a crayon. Now, there's a little backlash against that and there's people that have, you know, and as a matter of fact, we used to joke about being like team crayon. As we were all, you know, training at different places and trying to find the best places to train.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  But there's beyond that, there's a there's a martial arts kind of tradition as well, which is, you know, loyalty and gratitude to your instructor, right? That's a that's a fairly understood tradition, not just in the martial arts, but in any arena where you're learning something from somebody that's putting their time and effort into you to instruct you in something. There's also. A practical level of reasoning behind this and that is competition.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  Right? So if you're gonna be competing and you compete with a guy at your gym that's got an unbelievable triangle and then somebody else comes from another school and they are basically rolling with that guy and they see he's got a really good triangle. Now you're in a competition against that guy and he tells his buddy, hey, that guy you're gonna compete against has a really good triangle. Watch out for his triangle.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  That can change the outcome of a match.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, he knows the details of it, all that stuff.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  That can change the outcome of a match. So

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  there's a practical level to it. You know, there's also sharing moves, right? And if certain schools might have a really good series of moves or moves and all of a sudden someone goes to, you know, train somewhere else, they can share that move and that's bad. And you know, what's interesting is in every business, most businesses that I work with, I should say, they have their own little worlds, right?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  And they have their own kind of loyalty and crayon chi. And if you, if you're at, you, you pick an industry, people are good in that industry. And when they change companies, they bring with them the same kind of thing. They bring maybe some secret sauce, maybe some moves, maybe they know some personalities. They know the weakness of that other company.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  So when they leave, there's a loyalty factor that comes into it. Now, that being said, loyalty goes both ways and I've talked about this before. The student should be loyal, right? But the teacher has to be loyal as well. That means they have to be teaching solid stuff. That means they need to, you know, train correctly. That means they need to offer enough classes, all kinds of things, right? The, the teacher owes some loyalty to the students. And on top of that, on top of that.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  This is America. Right? This is America and in America, you pay to go to a school. You pay money, right? It costs you money and I always use this example when people ask me about this. In America, just because you normally get your pizza from Domino's, doesn't mean that if you feel like it, you can't get, call up Little Caesar's and have some coming crazy. It's America. And, and, and if, guess what? If Little Caesar's makes a better pizza, you're gonna maybe order even more often. So it's, there's, there's competition, right? And you wanna end up where you getting the best pizza.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  And there's, so, so there's some advantages to looking for that good pizza. There's, there's, and there's some advantages to traveling around and good training at different places because you're gonna get different, schools with different instructors that have different specialties and different styles.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  So that can be advantageous. There's also some disadvantages to school, like going to a bunch of different schools. Number one is your teacher doesn't really know you. So now your teacher doesn't know your style, doesn't know what moves would be good for you. They also don't see you progress because you're only coming back every once in a while or whatever. They don't, they don't see you getting any better. And they're not, they're not really maybe as comfortable teaching you everything. Because you're not really their student and you know what? Man, it is a, it's, it's a, it's a powerful thing to teach someone jujitsu and it's, it's the effort. And there's an emotional component to it. When you teach somebody jujitsu, there's an emotional thing. You're giving them something.

• 1:27:21Jocko Willink?

  And there's an emotional level in there somewhere that says, you know what? I'm giving you this. Not gonna hold it over your head, but.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a little something there. You, I'm not gonna say you owe me anything, but you owe me a little something, right?

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, like, like what? You, like, so I taught you this, so now you need to go and not mess it up? Or you gotta represent? Or is it like, don't use this to, I don't know. Like, what do you mean?

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  I think it's a little bit of both of, you know, I'm investing all this in you, right? Sure, you're giving me a hundred bucks a month, but what I'm giving you is worth more than a hundred bucks a month. Like, we know that, right? So, give me something back. What do I want back? I want you to train with me. You know what I mean? Just, hey, you gonna go to another school and you're gonna train there sometimes? I understand that. But, oh, wait a second. Now I'm just your part-time teacher? Okay, well, I'm not gonna invest very much in you anymore.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah, I got you.

• 1:28:22Jocko Willink?

  So, there's a, there, there's an emotional component to it. Now, again, back to the advantages, because there's a dichotomy of everything, right? You're rolling with different people at different schools. Like I said, one thing that's nice about our school is we got, we got different instructors with different styles. I mean, between Dean and Jeff, they are literally at the opposite end of the spectrums, which is freaking awesome to have. They're at the opposite end of the spectrums of the jujitsu skillset, right? They're just crazy different. They almost don't look like they're doing the same sport. And when I train with both of them, I don't feel like I'm doing the same sport. It's just a different, it's just a totally different game. But then you got James Nielsen, who's got his own style of jujitsu, which is insane.

• 1:29:06Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Greg Train, obviously. You got him coming in hot. Who am I missing? Adam. He's teaching his own little different style. Who else? Jeff, Jeff Real. Jeff Real's got his badass game, fast. Me, I don't know what, I don't teach myself, but I'm sure that there's a different element there.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you coach up and stuff like people learn from me. I know I like a lot of stuff I learned from you.

• 1:29:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  And like you're like a tutelage, whatever, you know, like you train with Jeff all the time. You're gonna learn some real creative, dynamic stuff. You learn from Dean, you're gonna, you know, learn a lot of stuff like in, you know, in that way. So, so I think a lot of people still, even though you're not an instructor, they do learn a lot from you.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I do teach from time to time. Um, but yes, I do, and I do, when I teach, a lot of times when I am teaching, I might not be teaching the class.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  But I'm saying, hey buddy, check this out.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:02Jocko Willink?

  Put your hips over here, you need to do it. So, so those are advantages, you know, if you were at a school with one instructor.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  Then I could see where you'd be going, man, okay, there could be an advantage if I go try some other instructors. Again, there's a trade off. Because now, now you start learning something. I actually see this more with striking, with, with striking training. Where guys that move around from different coach, different striking instructors a lot, they don't. It's not like jujitsu where you can incorporate it in and you learn something from some other guy and you bring it into your game and you change it a little bit. When I see people move striking coaches a lot, I see their game actually deteriorate, in my opinion. Because striking is more instinctive, it's an instinctive thing, right? You're throwing your combos and you let them go.

• 1:30:53Jocko Willink?

  Like you let your combos go and you react. It's, it's just something that happens. It's more mechanical. So, when you train mechanically to react and to throw your combos the way you're throwing them, and then all of a sudden you change that and you wanna throw them a different way. I think it trips people up. I think it sends them backwards a little bit. Whereas jujitsu, you can incorporate new games, different parts of games more fluidly.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  And, and also striking, when you're training, striking. Jujitsu, sure, you learn moves from the coach, your instructor. You learn, you know, some timing stuff, but it's like instruction, but then you have to train with a multitude, like all your training partners in jujitsu. And that's part of your training. So, if you go striking, it's not really like that. In fact, most strikers, they'll, they'll stick with the one coach. And then they'll have a multitude of sparring partners.

• 1:31:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So that changes. And jujitsu, just by its own nature, is already like that.

• 1:31:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and when you spar against other people, striking though. Your fundamental movements, they'll change a lot less than they will when you're rolling with a bunch of different people.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  You're using more of your body.

• 1:31:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're, you're, there's just, um, striking is linear.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, more than.

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  And jujitsu is completely not linear. So therefore, when you're training something that's linear and you start going off that line, it trips you up, in my opinion. But with jujitsu, it can be beneficial at times to, um,

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  train with some other people. Advantages and disadvantages. So, I guess to get to this question, long-winded answer.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  One, you know, what is it? The head coach banned him from coming back. That's a bummer. That's a bummer. I, I'm, I'm sorry to hear that. I've never banned anyone from our school for going and training in another school. Yeah, I'm not intimidated by that, right? If someone goes, hey, I'm gonna go train at this other school, I'm like, cool. And they come back. Because they get there and they go, okay, this is cool, but I'm gonna come back to where we get this training that we have at Victory, right? Which I'm comfortable with. And if someone goes somewhere and goes, oh, I like this place better than Victory? That's cool. Good luck. I mean, it's all, and you know, in a year, they come back and go, yeah, I'm coming back, you know?

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  I don't get mad at them because everyone's on their own journey, I guess you could say. Everyone's finding their own path. And I'm not gonna force people down a path. I might recommend a path, you know? I might say, you know, and I do that, you know, that's what we have the gym for. It's like, here's a path, man. And it's wide open, it's a beautiful path with incredible jujitsu practitioners. So, I don't, I'm kinda bummed out to hear, you know, that that happens, but I do understand, and I think that's what, if I was,

• 1:33:44Jocko Willink?

  if I were in that position, where I'm at a school and my training partner leaves, and then he gets banned? That, I don't like that. I don't like that.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:54Jocko Willink?

  I think it's a bummer.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so, Joe, I agree with it. And here. Everywhere is kind of different. Here is kind of a situation here in Southern California.

• 1:34:03Jocko Willink?

  God, it's ridiculous situation.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:05Jocko Willink?

  We got the jujitsu everywhere.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Everywhere, yes. So.

• 1:34:08Jocko Willink?

  It's literally on every street corner in some cases.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  You can literally walk comfortably, comfortably. It's like, what, one block to the next one? And it's a good one, too. That's the thing.

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's jujitsu schools everywhere. I'm sorry for those of you that live in the non-jujitsu parts of the world. I'm sorry. We have a lot of jujitsu here in San Diego.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have like our gym.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  And Southern California in general. Orange County, LA is crazy. Yeah.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  So you figure in San Diego, what's gonna kind of be a result of that is like our situation, for example. We have Dean, who's kind of the, the, the main guy who kind of came in with the school, right? Remember Dean had the small kind of school, went to the boxing club, came to Throwdown is what it was called, became Victory. But with Dean was like a bunch of guys like you, Elias, James Nilson, some other guys from Fabio Santos. And we all trained together. Elias was instructor, like all these guys. And then some guys went and opened their own school. Now, so now, as a result of that whole situation, sure, we have other schools, but they're kind of still our guys in a weird way.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  They're different things. So if I go train with Elias, which Johnny Faria, another one, he was my instructor for a little while. I'll go train with Johnny sometime. And then, is that a, is that a crayon situation? Yeah, I mean, even technically, is that a crayon situation?

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're asking me technically? I would say, I would tell you this, back 10 years ago?

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  That would be, that would be a major crayon situation. Is it right now for me? No. You know, I want you to get better at jujitsu.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  Right, yes.

• 1:35:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, and if, if you got an opportunity to go, you're gonna go train at another school, that's cool. Cause it's, it's, it's gonna make you better. It doesn't, it doesn't offend me. You know what? I'm not a jealous husband, right? I'm not jealous of, of that. I don't think, oh, what if he goes and never comes? I know you, I know where it's at. Right? And, and so it's all good.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  You know who I'm coming home to.

• 1:36:06Jocko Willink?

  That's right. That's right.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think the culture just in general is shifting and I, I think this is this, like in, in Southern California is gonna be more like this, like way more laid back. Of course you get, you know, little, little tiny little groups of people who still believe that, even though, but the, really the community is like that. In fact, if you consider it Studio 540, that's a Creonti gym.

• 1:36:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's actual, they might as well be called Creonti Capital.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  All the way down to the instructors. Now Fabio Santos who teach there one day. Fabio Santos has his own gym by the way, Arizona Academy by the way. Same thing with the Higgs, like all, these are guys who, who came from other academies and they invite whoever.

• 1:36:42Jocko Willink?

  And they actually have other academies currently.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Yep. And you can go visit all the time, you know, everyone knows each other. So it's like the culture is different.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  And I think, I think with our gym, it's not as, uh, not as pronounced as that, but we definitely, I mean, people come in every day from, we're all over. You know, how many different gyms were represented today for Open Math? There was guys from all over San Diego, guys from all over the country. Uh, Victor, showing up from Seattle, Trooper wanting to get his game on, right on, you know?

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Ivan Salivary guy.

• 1:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's right. Beast, beast mode up there.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was good. And that, and that's the, the cool thing. You said it, Dean said it. He said, I encourage you to go to other gyms. Or, I mean, not to be some weird spy, but he's like, bro, if you wanna go get training, cause I was going up to Eddie Bravo's one, this is a long time ago, when he, when he was at, uh, like Legends. And I was going up there for work or whatever. And, um, you know, I knew about that or it's like, oh, is that kinda backstabbing if I go train?

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  What year was that? You didn't tell me that you were doing that.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Actually I did. It wasn't about Eddie Bravo's one, but it was about something else. I did tell you and he said the same thing. He was like, bro, you get as much training as you can. You know, if you wanna, if you wanna be a part of this, like association, academy or whatever, then that's up to you. And I'm glad you're here or whatever. And I don't think personally that you're gonna do it, but probably you're here to learn Jiu Jitsu. And if you can learn some Jiu Jitsu over there, like more of a certain type than you can here or anywhere, fine.

• 1:38:07Jocko Willink?

  Go do it.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. He said the more Jiu Jitsu you learn, the better. So I was like, dang.

• 1:38:12Jocko Willink?

  Quote from Dean Lister right there.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  The more Jiu Jitsu you learn, the better.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then so even to kinda go above and beyond that is.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  When you, okay.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  You know what I got to interject here is especially for some of these academies out there, man, jiu jitsu. It's like you're a doctor. Cause you went through 10 years of school to get your black belt, just like a doctor goes. And what sucks is when you're a doctor, you make X amount of money. It's a very steady paycheck and you're kind of set. Jiu jitsu doesn't mean anything. That black belt that you worked 10 years for doesn't get you paid. So the reason I'm saying this is some of the people that are more defensive about this. If they're an instructor and they have a small academy, they need. You're financially supporting them. They worked hard to do that. They've invested in you. They're counting on you. So when you just go, ah, you know, I'm gonna go train somewhere else, that, that. Not only does it hurt them emotionally, like I said, cause man, when you put some effort into somebody.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  You feel like, oh, you're gonna leave after I gave you all that and you didn't give it to them because they paid, but you gave them. The value that you get out of jiu jitsu is not worth a hundred dollars a month. It's worth a thousand dollars a month. It's worth. It's worth a ton of money. Keeling put that on his, uh. On, on some social media post that he, because he got his black belt. And when he did, he's like, well, you're rich when you got something that money can't buy. And that's the truth, right? And, but that black belt doesn't get you any money. It doesn't mean anything. So there's another component to this whole thing. That if you're leaving and going to different schools and someone's thinking, oh man, I'm gonna lose, you know, this is how I feed my. There's, you know, jiu jitsu is, you want to become a jiu jitsu instructor, you're generally not gonna become a rich person, right?

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  Not financially rich. So there's that component too. Now luckily we have a big gym and it's a little easier for guys to come and go. It's okay. You know, we're not sweating it as bad. Um, and yeah, so you gotta, you gotta keep that in mind as well, that your, your coach that's poured more than. What you've paid him.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  Because I don't just want to say, hey, look, I'm paying for this instruction. So you owe it to me and I'll go do whatever I want. That's too base of a statement to make. Because truly jiu jitsu has more value than the hundred dollars a month that you're paying for it.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you really, as a quote unquote customer or member, I mean, everyone's, there's sure there's exceptions to this, but generally you don't want that anyway. Even if you think you do, like, I, I can be free to come and go and technically you are free to come and go as you, as you are. But don't think that like everyone's gonna be just a hundred percent fine with it all the time because. When, when you, when you come in, like I said, like. It's a kind of a two-way street. You would, or hopefully, I hope my coach takes pride in what he taught me.

• 1:40:57Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  I hope my coach is like, I care about how good you become.

• 1:41:01Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  I hope he's not the guy who's like, give me the check, I'll teach my moves and who cares about how good you get. And I don't want that guy. You don't want that guy.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  So there is that and, and so that makes sense. It is that two-way street. But as a competitor or practitioner, guy learning, so as a student, especially when you reach a certain level and you've been training with kind of the same, even like 20, 25 guys, we'll say, you've been training with these same 20, which is a lot of guys, by the way, to always train with. You've been training with them for, I don't know, whatever, eight years, we'll say. And then you go to another gym, man, that's a way different look. So it's like fresh, brand-new types of training, you know?

• 1:41:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's like you're almost going to competition, but you're not competing. Cause when you compete, you get to go against people you've never trained with before.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Different guys, and that's aside from even the different techniques.

• 1:41:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what I find when I go in those situations, when I, when I train with somebody that doesn't, I don't train with all the time? It's, you, you feel a lot better at jujitsu. Cause they don't, cause all the guys.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  They don't know your game.

• 1:42:00Jocko Willink?

  And you, you know, we, you know, everyone's got their own little special thing. So I always feel like a little bit better when I go.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. See, and that's part of my point, where if you train with 25 guys, those 25 guys, they know your game. And not to say it's not good train, it's good training, but they know your game. So it may not be as accurate as far as like training, competition or something like that, after a while. So when you go to these new places, you get, that's an additional layer of a training you get.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know, another subject on this is it kind of always bummed me out when I would hear from my jujitsu friends that have, we've been in San Diego for 20-something years. And all of a sudden be like, oh, we can't come to your school because our instructor doesn't want us to. And I'd always be like, bro.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:42:41Jocko Willink?

  So, so that's like, I wouldn't tell somebody that. I'm not trying to control people.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  And that bums me out. So that actually brings up another. Um, subject that I feel like I have to talk about. Uh, because we got a lot of people out there that are starting jujitsu for the first time. A lot of troopers that are getting in the jujitsu game, which is awesome. It's awesome. And I get a lot of people saying, oh, what school should I train at in wherever? Throw a dart at a map in America and that's what they're asking me about. First of all, I don't know all those instructors now. Generally, you know, somebody that does jujitsu will look at a website and see what a guy's credentials are. And say, yeah, that guy looks like a legit black belt or legit brown belt. Or even a guy asked me the other day, is it worth learning from a purple belt if there's no one else around? I'm like, absolutely, absolutely.

• 1:43:31Jocko Willink?

  So, but people ask me about these schools and I kind of give them my best guess. Like, you know, I'll take a look at the website and, um, you know, see if there's a black belt. You don't need to ask me, by the way. Google, look at their record, make sure that they do Brazilian jujitsu, not some other form of jujitsu. Just, just you can figure it out. You don't need, you can go to the school and assess. But what I want, the main point that I wanted to bring up isn't that. It's just this part here is that being into jujitsu doesn't mean that a person is a good person.

• 1:44:07Jocko Willink?

  And being a black belt in jujitsu doesn't have anything to do with their character as a person. And I hate to say that. Um, and, and there is a level of to get, to be a black belt in jujitsu. Sure, you could say in general, it means you're a committed person. In general, it means you're a hardworking person. In general, it means that you've been humbled by your experiences on the mat. In general, but it is no way a fact. And there are people in the jujitsu game that are swindlers and thieves.

• 1:44:52Jocko Willink?

  And they're untrustworthy and there's black belts in jujitsu that can be bullies.

• 1:44:59Jocko Willink?

  And there's people in jujitsu that can be predators. And, you know, jujitsu, it's a power. And sometimes people that are power hungry recognize that power and they pursue the.

• 1:45:17Jocko Willink?

  Gaining of jujitsu power and then they abuse that power. So like any abusive situation where one person has a perceived power over another person. It can get very ugly and there's all kinds of abuses that I've seen take place over the years in the jujitsu world. Financial abuses, physical abuse and even sexual abuse.

• 1:45:45Jocko Willink?

  So I just wanted to get that out there. That being a jujitsu, black belt, brown belt, purple belt, blue belt, white belt, doesn't make someone a good person. So you need to be careful.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu doesn't make you a god and it certainly doesn't make you a saint, but it does give you power and everybody has to recognize that there's people out there that are, their goal is to abuse power.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  And I think the same thing goes with any glorified position in life, you know, and I actually see that sometimes with, you know, standing in a company, a, being a veteran. Like being a veteran doesn't mean that you're a saint by any stretch of the imagination. Being a SEAL, right? I know a lot of SEALs and there's plenty of SEALs that got out of the SEAL teams and they're upstanding, awesome citizens.

• 1:46:45Jocko Willink?

  But there's also scoundrels and miscreants and swindlers, like I said, and they're using the SEAL name that they have to promote themselves and to take advantage of other people. So keep your guard up. Keep your guard up and make sure you judge people not based on what jujitsu belt they have. Or what veteran status it is that they brag about, but who they are as a person. And I just wanted to get that out there. Because we sit here and talk about jujitsu and there's so many great people in jujitsu, man, it's wonderful.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  You roll into some, you see somebody with cauliflower ears and you start talking to him, it's great. And you, you, you know, there's just a bunch of great people. I mean, we were on the mat today for two hours, you know? And we trained for an hour and 15 minutes and then we're just hanging out, just talking because that's what we do. And we're talking about everything and it's so there's great people in jujitsu. It's a great family situation. But you do have to be careful. It is not a blanket.

• 1:47:59Jocko Willink?

  Blanket statement that because someone's a jujitsu, black belt, for instance, that they are a trustworthy person because there's some scumbags out there.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, and that's that can, and the fact that, and I talked to Brady about this every once in a while where you go in jujitsu and it seems like everyone just identifies with each other. And later on you find out, oh shoot, that guy's like a lawyer and that guy's a doctor or that guy's like a different religion.

• 1:48:24Jocko Willink?

  That guy's a plumber and that guy's a whatever and this person's from this area and we all just get along on the mat.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Yep, everyone gets along and the black belt, he has so much like, he's humble, like for the most part, it's, it's pretty. You know, everyone's really good in jujitsu.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  For the most part.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Right. And that's why you can kind of, especially if you're kind of new or maybe like the first year or something like that where you're going around and dang, my whole year of jujitsu has been great. People come on the mat and they're, oh my gosh, all my new friends. That's a big one, man. All my new friends is so cool and I got this whole thing. It's like, it's, your whole life is better. And then so your guard is down in, in almost like a conditioning way.

• 1:49:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  You're just like, hey, if you're into jujitsu, you must be dope in every way. And then you get these like outliers that they're in the game, you know? And they, and they take advantage like they're, or they can, you know, and some do. But yeah, you gotta, you gotta always kinda watch out for that kind.

• 1:49:15Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So just if your spider senses are going up, or first of all, turn them on.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, turn them on.

• 1:49:21Jocko Willink?

  Turn them on. And if they go up, start to maybe ask more questions than you are. And don't get yourself in a situation where, you know, you're gonna regret what's going on because you believed that someone was a good person because they had some status that you consider to be an honorable status.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:37Jocko Willink?

  Hate to say it, man. I hate to, I hate to have to uh, kinda bring that, bring all that, all that jujitsu down in this, you know, there's, and then I'll tell you something else. There's aspects of jujitsu where people lose their minds, right? They get crazy. And, you know, some of it, you know, with the whole school thing we just talked about, where people start going crazy about who owns students, right? No, like, no, like, I'm not gonna own any students.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm happy to have people that train at my gym. And I'm happy to work with them and train them. I don't own anybody, right? And there's people that get that crazy. There's people that get crazy, uh, parents? That go psycho on their kids.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  And go level seven, you know, um, living vicariously through their kids.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  And push their kids till their kids hate jujitsu.

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, I pushed my kids too hard when they were younger, for sure. That's looking back, you know, everyone's, oh, the big parenting advice from Jocko, man, I pushed my kids too hard. I made them compete too much. Made them compete in harder brackets, older kids, heavier kids, all the time. And it made jujitsu not fun.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50:43Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't break them mentally from that. So you gotta be careful of that. You gotta be careful of the whole, um, you gotta be careful of, jujitsu is a power. And it's really easy to get suckered into the point where you feel like you should exercise your power over other people.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:02Jocko Willink?

  Um, on the mats or otherwise.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you, if you ever go into the gym and it's making you feel really good to tap everyone out, like you're feeling better than them?

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:12Jocko Willink?

  Just start to check yourself, man. Because that's not, that's not helping you.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:51:17Jocko Willink?

  Because there's someone out there that's can tap you. There's someone else, and if you're taking those abusives out on other people. So, again, to beginners in jujitsu, it's, you're gonna get tapped out. You're gonna get tapped out a lot. But there shouldn't be anyone that is- Smashing you and abusing you, that's a much higher belt than you, right? Another white belt might not even get that yet. They're just happy they're submitting you, right? But anyone that's been around a little bit more, they should be, you should feel like, hey, that guy just,

• 1:51:49Jocko Willink?

  he didn't abuse me.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:50Jocko Willink?

  She didn't abuse me. She just beat me and I know what happened and it's cool.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even that, that's kind of weird and interesting too, where abuse can come in weird, different forms too, you know? Like if, because there's a difference between, okay, so like Jeff Glover, for example. If you, if Jeff Glover is, because he has fun when he rolls, that's a big part of his game. And let's say, oh, I'm a new white belt, maybe, you know, and I come and roll against Jeff Glover and he, and it's, let's say it's, I don't know, six minute round and just in training and Jeff taps him out 25 times. That's not, that's not abuse.

• 1:52:28Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  You know, you're just, he's just doing submissions hole on you, he's doing his thing or whatever. If someone's like grinding you and doing, you know, abusing you or trying to make you look stupid or something like that. Because like, oh yeah, I know jujitsu, you don't kind of thing, or maybe there's some girls that he's trying to, then that starts to get into abuse, but.

• 1:52:47Jocko Willink?

  Don't ever watch me and Dean roll, because when one of us is having a good day and the other one's having a bad day, it's straight up abusive.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  But that's you and Dean.

• 1:52:54Jocko Willink?

  We have fun though.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  And you'll notice that if, when you establish like solid training partners, that becomes part of the game. I'm gonna try to abuse you and so that's different. That's what I mean by so different, like dynamic as far as like recognizing what abuse is. Because if you get tapped out 25 times and it seems like dang, you didn't have to like go black belt on him, he's a white belt. Well, yeah, he went black belt on him, but he wasn't abusing him. You know, I mean, that's like, that's well within the confines of the game, you know?

• 1:53:23Jocko Willink?

  For sure. There's a big difference between that. I know this, to translate this for people that don't do jujitsu yet. Think about also this with any status structure, right? In work, in the military, in the hierarchy of any company or industry where if you're feeling good about bossing people around.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:47Jocko Willink?

  You're doing something wrong, man. You're doing something wrong. If your goal.

• 1:53:54Jocko Willink?

  Of what you're doing is based on you. If you're saying, "Look, I'm gonna be the best and I'm gonna be, this is what's important to me."

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:09Jocko Willink?

  If that's what you're saying as a leader, put yourself in check. Because that's just pure ego coming out. When you're saying, "Look, I wanna be the best in this." And I think there's a weird thing that happens with people that are go-getters. And they hear someone that's a go-getter, they'll hear some person that's been successful in business. And that person that's been successful in business will be like, "You know what? I said I was gonna be the best and here I am, I'm the best." You gotta set your goals, you gotta put them out there. And you gotta let everyone know that you're gonna run them over if you get in your way. And that sounds really cool. And, and I guarantee, if you went back and you followed that person through their career, they were not like that. They were, they were politically sensitive, they understood other people's needs.

• 1:54:53Jocko Willink?

  They didn't go, "Hey, nice to meet you, I'm gonna take over this business." No, they didn't do that. They said, "Hey, nice to meet you, how you doing? What are you, what are we trying to make happen here?" They made it a goal for the team, even if the deep underlying goal is a, is a selfish one, let's say. The outer goal should not be that. It should not be, "Hey, I'm gonna be the best, I'm gonna be the ruler of this company, I'm gonna be..." No, we don't wanna hear that. Like when you, you know, and just take, "Oh, I wanna be the President of the United States." Who, who wants that person to be President of the United States? I sure don't. I don't want that person to be President of the United States. If someone says, "I'm gonna be the CEO of this company." Now, what do you think of that?

• 1:55:35Jocko Willink?

  You think, "Okay, so this person's ego is really, really big." And you think to yourself, "You know what? That, I, I don't like that." You need to put that, so if that's your attitude and you think you're being fired up, keep that goal internal.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:50Jocko Willink?

  Don't be announcing that goal, even though it's like, "State your goals and let the world know you're here." No. Because you sound like an egomaniac. What you should say is like, you know what I want to do with this company? I want to help this company grow the best I can. And you know what's important to me about being in a leadership position? What's important to me about being in a leadership position is making sure that the people underneath me, they get better and they reach their goals. This isn't about me. This is about the people that are on my team and I want to make them successful. Now, who wants to work for that person? I do. Sign me up. But when I say, hey, boss, nice to meet you. What's your, you know, what's your goal here at the company? My goal is to be CEO.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be the boss.

• 1:56:35Jocko Willink?

  So you're gonna step on my back to get there. Sounds like fun. So don't sign me up for that guy. I don't want to work with that person. I want to work with somebody that's about the team. And I don't want to work with somebody that's gonna be abusive, just like I don't want to train at anybody's jujitsu academy. That's gonna have that abusive mentality. And they're out there. So I wanted to tie that back into the business world.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  I'm the instructor.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  I'm the instructor.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  I'm your instructor. You don't go no place.

• 1:57:00Jocko Willink?

  It's like Napoleon Dynamite, you know, bow to your sensei. Right? They make fun of that and it's funny. And, and there's, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. There's a lot of tradition in jujitsu as well. You know, you bow to your instructor, you bow when you come on and off the mat.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's different.

• 1:57:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm not super into that stuff. You know what I mean? I'm laid back, you know? I'm, I'm pretty laid back when it comes to the jujitsu traditions.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, most of the bowing to the instructor in jujitsu is more like, it's like bow to jujitsu almost like, and not bow like bow down. It's more, it's like show respect. Like if you go to even more traditional schools, even when Morongo was teaching at our, at our school, you know, you bow to all the instructors because they're the ones providing the jujitsu. And then you bow to Heliogrecy because he's the one who kind of provide, you know, so it's more about the jujitsu.

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Not like bow to your sensei. It doesn't have that feel.

• 1:57:48Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta make sure that you're not getting that crossover. Where it goes from, hey, bow to jujitsu and play, pay respect to a beautiful thing?

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  To bow to me.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57:58Jocko Willink?

  And it's the same thing in the business world. If you're saying, look, there's nothing wrong with treating your CEO with respect and your CEO should be treated with respect. Or your boss, you treat your boss with respect, absolutely. Like, hey, boss, what do you need me to do? Hey, hey, sir, in the military, you know, you call those senior officers, sir. There, there's, there's nothing, you shouldn't feel degraded by doing that, but.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  For instance, in the military, if it's like, hey, you call me sir, you know, okay, I see what I'm dealing with here. In the, in the business world, if people are, you know, if you as an individual are thinking, you better show me the respect I deserve.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  I deserve.

• 1:58:37Jocko Willink?

  You got issues. You got issues. You gotta earn that respect. If someone's not giving you the respect, don't, don't look at them and demand it.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  Look at yourself and demand that you become a better leader where they give you the respect, not because you asked for it, but because you deserved it.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:54Jocko Willink?

  There's a big difference.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  That's funny, man. Give me the respect I deserve.

• 1:58:58Jocko Willink?

  Give me the respect I deserve.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Most of the time, most, not all the time, most of the time, when someone says, give me the respect I deserve, it's when they are being given the respect they deserve, which is probably not that much.

• 1:59:09Jocko Willink?

  Most of the time when people are be saying, give me the respect I deserve, they don't deserve the respect they're asking for.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:16Jocko Willink?

  They need to get their head together. Awesome. What, we got time for one more?

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  Last one. Jocko, I have had a few rough months. Some setbacks at work that hurt me financially, which has stressed out my family. I'm late on some payments. I'm falling further behind at work. I don't want to tap out, but I just don't know where to start.

• 1:59:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know what? That's, that's just kind of the way that

• 1:59:49Jocko Willink?

  life works sometimes. It's, it's Murphy's law. When things go wrong, they always seem to happen at once and they just compound on top of each other. And it's, it's pretty easy sometimes to, to feel beaten when you're faced with all those issues and all those problems and they all hit you at the same time. But let me tell you, that, that doesn't mean give up.

• 2:00:26Jocko Willink?

  In fact, it means the opposite.

• 2:00:31Jocko Willink?

  It means it's time for you to fight harder, to dig in. Means it's time for you to go on the warpath.

• 2:00:42Jocko Willink?

  And that starts with one of the fundamental laws of combat leadership. Prioritize and execute. What's the biggest problem? What's causing the most stress? Family?

• 2:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Sit them down. Explain where you are at. Be blunt. Be upfront. And then give them the simple plan of how you're gonna get things back on track. Don't sugarcoat it.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  You give it to them straight. Next, you got some, some late payments. Call those creditors up. Explain to them what's going on. Set up some kind of a, of a, of a minimum payment plan. So you can start making some progress and get them off your back. And then you got your job.

• 2:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Right? You're falling behind at work? Okay, talk to your boss. Face it. Tell him that you're gonna step up your game. Tell him you're gonna be at work early, you're gonna be at work late, you're gonna be at work during lunch. You're gonna be wherever you need to be, whenever he needs you to be there.

• 2:01:58Jocko Willink?

  Tell him you're gonna get after it. And tell him that you're 100% committed to supporting him and the company and the mission.

• 2:02:14Jocko Willink?

  And then you get started.

• 2:02:18Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna tell you right now. It won't be easy. It will be hard because life is hard. That's what life is.

• 2:02:29Jocko Willink?

  And these challenges, these challenges that you face, they're gonna do their best to take you down.

• 2:02:43Jocko Willink?

  Do not let them stand up, dig in. Line up those problems and confront them, face them, fight them.

• 2:02:57Jocko Willink?

  Do not let them bring you down. In fact, in fact, let those challenges raise you up. Let them elevate you.

• 2:03:11Jocko Willink?

  Let their demands and their trials make you stronger.

• 2:03:18Jocko Willink?

  Let the adversity you face today turn you into a better person tomorrow.

• 2:03:29Jocko Willink?

  So, so in the future, you look back at these struggles and you say to them,

• 2:03:40Jocko Willink?

  "Thank you.

• 2:03:42Jocko Willink?

  You made me better."

• 2:03:51Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 2:03:59Jocko Willink?

  So, Echo, let's close it on out. How can everyone get on board with the program here and, and support the little podcast we got going?

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Enforcements, not reinforcements, enforcements.

• 2:04:13Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  So, a few ways. First, on top of supporting this podcast, you're gonna wanna support yourself, I think.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  Supplementation, we always talk about this, I know, I know. Um, anyway, Onnit has the best supplements, we all know this, krill oil. Got my krill oil in.

• 2:04:35Jocko Willink?

  Echo's in the game.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  Actually, I'm staying on it every month. Anyway, so Onnit, Onnit.com slash Jocko 10% off, so supplement your wallet as well. So, the krill oil, that's for your joints, Warrior Bars as well. I think that one's a good one.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  Shroom tech.

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  Shroom tech is kinda, okay, so.

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Victor was talking about, he's like, I'm on shroom tech today. He was all fired up.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so tell me what you think about this. So. I used to take shroom tech all the time and be like, and I felt, and I felt like it kinda gave me an advantage. Cause you know how cardio conditioning and stuff is a tool in jujitsu or can be if you use it? Do you think that's an advantage?

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Do I think cardio is an advantage?

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Do you think taking shroom tech is like, oh, he took shroom tech, doesn't count? Cause I took shroom tech and tapped out someone who I don't tap out.

• 2:05:30Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's two ways to look at that. Well, I'll tell you what, shroom tech is really good. Shroom tech did not make you tap out the person that you tapped out.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  But indirectly it could have, you know what I mean?

• 2:05:39Jocko Willink?

  So I guess, I guess the answer to this would be. Since you were able with shroom tech to do more, it's pushing you harder. So you're stepping up your game overall.

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm allowed to train better.

• 2:05:52Jocko Willink?

  Cause you can train harder because of your shroom tech.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:54Jocko Willink?

  So it is, as far as I'm concerned, permissible to do that because you're just trying to get yourself better and shroom tech helps you do that.

• 2:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Now you might have to, you know, give a caveat, put a little asterisk next to your tap out.

• 2:06:07Speaker 01

  I was on the shroom tech, so does it, you know?

• 2:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Quite there.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  It's, that's like a wind.

• 2:06:11Jocko Willink?

  And today when we got done training, I was like, you know, I didn't take any shroom tech today. So maybe, you know, and you were like, I didn't either. And so I said, okay, it was a level playing field.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Even Steven, yeah, the, the, um, it's like when you run the hundred meter dash in the wind. If the, there's a strong wind, like you'll, you'll get the record, but there's a star there, asterisk says wind aided. Record.

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Says wind aided. Yeah, still your record, but it's wind aided. So everyone knows that.

• 2:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they try and do you like that.

• 2:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're, when you get your shroom tech and you set your PR in, you know, in like, you know, a wad or something like this. You gotta put the star there. It's like, yes, my PR, but I was on the shroom tech.

• 2:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Ah, you don't have to do, I wouldn't do that. Maybe, I don't know, but you might, anyway, nonetheless, shroom tech sport though. There's two, there's shroom tech, um. What's the other one? The Shroom Tech something else. I'm talking about the support.

• 2:07:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's Shroom Tech Immune.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes, Imm- Immune.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I take a sport.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, luckily I haven't had to take the immune, yeah. But no, that's for general immunity, right? That should boost the thing. But anyway, that one probably not a P. Performance enhancing supplement. Maybe it is indirectly. Anyway, on it, uh, it's different on it. Get 10% off on it.com slash Jocko. Take the Alpha Brain to think a little better. Like, it makes you think. It's proven, by the way. That's saying a lot. It's legitimately proven. Not like the 19%.

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  The 19% is pretty legitimately proven, as far as I know. Cole Miller.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Cole Miller.

• 2:07:39Jocko Willink?

  UFC fighter.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  Mike Best. He, bruh, I got an email today, got his rash guard, uh, you know, he just started jiu-jitsu. Like, you know, a lot of us have been. And so he emails me and says, I was gonna bring the email and read it. It's like short. So he's like, um, he's like, hey, man, I, I tapped up my jiu-jitsu journey. It's going awesome. Uh, I tapped out my first blue belt today.

• 2:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  And he said, guess what I was wearing?

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  He said, I'm not gonna attribute it to the rash guard.

• 2:08:09Jocko Willink?

  Specifically.

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  But let's, let's face it, it was the rash guard. Okay, so that being said, there's some Trooper rash guards on JacoStore.com. I redid the website, by the way. The, not much in effect, it's just kinda redone. Nonetheless, those rash guards on there, they're cool. They improve your performance 19%. Technically, I guess, I mean, apparently 19 to 35%. Really, that's the range.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Evidently. Anyway, cool rash guards, you can check those out, JacoStore.com. Uh, there's some shirts there, too.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Was that you telling me that you saw someone with a shirt on? No, no, Victor, Victor was saying.

• 2:08:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, Victor, Victor was saying he saw someone in the wild.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  That's the thing when, and I said this before, of course, so, you know, if you listen, you know, that I try to put more than just the one layer on the shirt. It's kinda, there's a bunch of inside stuff.

• 2:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Actually, you talking about the layers on the shirts is starting to become a thing.

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  I'm telling, no, I'm saying, cuz it, you know why it's starting to become a thing? Cuz it, cuz it is a thing. So.

• 2:09:12Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna have to, like, on some future shirt, you'd have to actually put the word "layers" in the background.

• 2:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that might be dope.

• 2:09:20Jocko Willink?

  Might be.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  Either way, he was saying how he recognized the shirt. And when you see someone else wearing like, you know, they know, you know? So it's not like you see a quicksilver shirt. And it's like, hey, I'm wearing. You know what I mean? It's different. It's way different. This stuff, you know, if you listen, you know, you're like, oh, anyway, check them out if you like them. Go grab one, you can support that way and force. And then Amazon click through. What that it does is anytime you shop on Amazon, just click through on our website, jocko podcast.com. Or the store, there's a little section there.

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  People can do a lot of Christmas and holiday shopping.

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you really want to get your support on, get in the game, full speed.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  What I like about that one is it doesn't cost anybody anything. It's, it just supports the podcast while you're doing your normal stuff. So that's awesome. And it's appreciated.

• 2:10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I guess, I mean, the key there really is to remember to click through before you go shop. That's it. Anyway, it's a good way to support the Amazon. So yeah, on the website, again, you just click on the Amazon link before you do your shopping. Then boom, support actively, efficiently, solid. And then of course, subscribe on the, on iTunes, on the iTunes or Stitcher. And there's some other like.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Google Play is now.

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Google Play. Yeah, that's a good.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  There's a bunch of those little podcast apps.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  But yeah, be a subscriber, man. In the game, straight up.

• 2:10:48Jocko Willink?

  Write a review on the, maybe this is, I don't know what this is. It's just one of those things. We're at like 900 something reviews.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:10:58Jocko Willink?

  So of course.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  You're OCD.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  A thousand.

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:02Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to go home and write a hundred reviews tonight, myself and get to a thousand.

• 2:11:08Jocko Willink?

  We'll be a thousand, a thousand reviews.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  What does that even mean?

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  I know, bro.

• 2:11:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, what's good about it is it is, if you wrote a review, I read it. I've read all the reviews that are on there and it's cool because it's good feedback and it lets us know that people are listening and that they're in the game.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is cool.

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  That is funny though.

• 2:11:29Jocko Willink?

  And I want to get to a thousand for no good reason.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  I know, that's funny, yeah.

• 2:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Is that ego? Is that ego, you think?

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Or maybe OCD, or both. Cause you know how like, you're like, hey, I don't, you know how like when you pump the gas, you know? And you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get, if you're not filling up, you're like, I'm gonna get it right on the twenty dollar market. And you go, oh, it's like, it's a weird thing. Anyway, something like that. Um, you know how like people, they'll celebrate, hey, I got to, you know, a thousand subscribers or whatever, you know, people, they'll celebrate and they'll post it and be like, like, why didn't you celebrate at like a thousand one or nine nine nine?

• 2:12:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, see, when I get to a thousand, I won't celebrate anything. I'll be like, I need to get to two thousand. And it's not even anything I can stop from my own brain thinking. It just thinks that way.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so yeah, so your thing is like different.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just like, it's, it's almost like a score. And I go, oh, well, what's my score right now? Right now, it's nine hundred and twenty-three.

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:19Jocko Willink?

  I want my score to be a thousand. Why? I have no good reason.

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  And you, yeah.

• 2:12:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I'm stupid.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Nonetheless, subscribe. Um, that, that's how you can support and YouTube, subscribe to that, you know? If you're down, if you're into YouTube and watching videos, um, subscribe to that. I think I'm gonna put out another one here pretty soon.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we hear that quite a bit.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  We are gonna put out another one.

• 2:12:41Jocko Willink?

  We hear that a lot.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  I know, you know, hey, it kinda like the email list, you know how like, oh, that, okay, I'll talk about it in a second, but, you know, like the email list, we sign up, the insiders list, you sign up. And be like, hey, I'll send you, you know, some, we'll send you some stuff.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna send you stuff every day. It's kinda like the YouTube, hey, I'm gonna put more videos. Maybe not every week, but you know, there will be more, more than zero.

• 2:13:04Jocko Willink?

  Basically, is what I'm hearing. Meanwhile, on my end, people are like, hey, Jocko, keep making a podcast every week. I say, oh, good, cool, I do it. Your end, you, they tell you, hey, Echo, can you make some more videos? And you're like, you know what?

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:18Jocko Willink?

  They can, they can wait.

• 2:13:19Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 2:13:20Jocko Willink?

  That's what, that's the artist in you.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that's not.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  That's the artist right there.

• 2:13:24Speaker 01

  Um, I'll, I'll, yeah, we'll do some more videos. How about that?

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  We are all sitting here, uh, holding our breath there Echo Charles for you to make more videos.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  I see what you're doing. You guys are like stroking my ego like, oh, we're waiting for your next video. Uh, whatever. And I'm like, yes, they're waiting for my video. I'm gonna put on the video, be like, yes, I wanna, my video, guys. And he's like, whatever.

• 2:13:45Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever made a video that you got done and you said, I'm not even gonna release this thing because it's too bad?

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Yes. I have a whole series.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Bro, I'm telling you, and we invested, bro. It's, yeah, there's like, one of them's called, um, Four People You Find On Facebook. And like Conan's in it. It's like the people who take, one of them is like the people who take pictures of, um, Themself, but they wanna act like they're taking a picture of something, you know, but it's like, I don't know. It's like this thing and it just didn't come out good. Anyway, nonetheless, yeah. I am very weary of these things. Anyway, so yeah, support that way. Uh, back to the store, Jocko's store. Uh, there's some new stuff.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Is it annoying to sit here and talk about like this stuff right here?

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Um, no, I don't think so. I mean, if, if I didn't have Debbie and everyone saying, uh, Echo, where's the girl stuff? Or, uh, you know, and they're just like, alright, you know, like not saying anything.

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  This is the thing. So just so, just so I think about it, like I always think like, okay, we, we can probably cut this, you know, hey, let's just run through, You know, how to support the podcast. It should take three minutes. For some reason, it turns into a 15 minute conversation.

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:49Jocko Willink?

  And I don't, I don't, it's, I never intend to do that. And then when I listen to it, I actually laugh at most of it and I think it's pretty funny. So I don't know. Maybe we should do like a two hour podcast of us just talking about how to support the podcast. Because it might be pretty funny because you're laughing right now. I was laughing a second ago and maybe that'd be the greatest topic ever.

• 2:15:08Speaker 01

  Okay, so in that regard, I, I'm not saying this is proof, but this is evidence and this happened more than once, by the way. So,

• 2:15:17Speaker 01

  You know, a guy will order a shirt and it's online, so you can't try on the shirts. So people will be like, hey, well, you know, what's the shirt size or whatever? And they'll say, hey, I need a bigger size. Or, I don't know, I forgot to change my address or something where, you know, they, they require another shirt.

• 2:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:15:34Speaker 01

  So, there'd be times I'd be like, oh, I'll just send it to you. Like it got lost in the mail, whatever. I'll just send it. So I just send it. And they're like, no, no, I, I, oh, no, no, here, this is what it was too. And that happened before, but here's, there's a very specific one I'm thinking about. Where I sent apparently two shirts. They got two shirts.

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  They were supposed to get one?

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  They're supposed to get one. Yeah. And they were like, I got two shirts. I'm keeping them. Tell me where to pay. Tell me like, tell me how I can pay because you can't go and click another, you know, it'll go in the orders. Tell me where I can pay. I was like, ah, keep the shirt. That's all you. You know, give it to somebody. And they're like, I demand to pay. Like, part of the reason is to support this, the podcast, you know?

• 2:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  So, and I'm kind of like, dang.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  There are enforcements out there who embrace the reinforcing. That's why, that's why I think this is relevant.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, well, I guess my point is, is that whenever we're talking about this stuff, what should be a 30 second thing turns into a 15 minute thing like it's happening right now. And when I listen to the podcast and I'll start going, oh, here come the advertisements. I gotta make a note to say shorten these down.

• 2:16:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:16:47Jocko Willink?

  And then I say, oh, you know what? That was actually funny as hell.

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:16:51Jocko Willink?

  So, I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm just ultra sensitive.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe just like the ritual thing.

• 2:16:57Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, maybe.

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  Dug in.

• 2:17:00Jocko Willink?

  So what were you saying? The store?

• 2:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, the store. So, hey, there's, there's some new stuffs. This is the first time where I'm saying it publicly, but there's hoodies and they're, they're pretty cool. Apparently, that's what people have been saying, you know? Jocko said, so good.

• 2:17:13Jocko Willink?

  I like them.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  Um, also, I redid the patches where they're, they're, you know how JP last week said, federal dark earth?

• 2:17:20Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  Apparently, it's flat dark earth.

• 2:17:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  Not to be confused with flat earth. That's people, when people think the earth is flat.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we don't want Eddie Bravo to get fired up about the earth being flat. Does he think that?

• 2:17:34Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 2:17:35Jocko Willink?

  Is that one of his conspiracy things that he believes in?

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think so, no.

• 2:17:38Jocko Willink?

  He believes in all kinds of crazy conspiracies.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. How do you know? How do you know?

• 2:17:41Jocko Willink?

  I don't, man. I'm not gonna argue, I'm not gonna argue any of that stuff with Eddie Bravo.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 2:17:45Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to. I'll talk to Rubber Guard about it with him. I don't want to talk about nothing else, man.

• 2:17:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:51Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's too, he's got too many facts and figures about stuff, you know? Facts and figures about all kinds of conspiracy stuff that I don't want to argue with.

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm good with him being in that world. I don't want to enter that world. I'm staying out of that world.

• 2:18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07Jocko Willink?

  You know why? Cause I guess I'm too blind to see the reality.

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Which is okay. I'm gonna stay blind on that stuff.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  You're all good. But the, so flat darker is the color. So we got, it's the official one where if you know you're in a uniform.

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  Is it two by three?

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  Two by three.

• 2:18:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  Anyway, so let's come as far as the new stuff on jocko store.com.

• 2:18:26Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  So yeah, look at that. jocko store.com. Look at uh the stuff on there. If you like it, go grab one. You can uh enforce, reinforce and support this podcast that way.

• 2:18:35Jocko Willink?

  Which is awesome. Appreciate it. You can also get some, some Jocko White Tea, which I've been drinking liberally all night long and I'm feeling pretty good right now.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  How do you have some? Cause we're out.

• 2:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, so I got massive quantities. I'm, I actually told our supplier, I will never, we will never run out of this again. How do we make that happen? And they told me how to make it happen. So it's gonna be back in Amazon directly and we will never run out of it again. That's my hope.

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 2:19:05Jocko Willink?

  I ordered a lot of it. I ordered a lot of it. Cause I didn't know that people were gonna be so into it. And then I realized, cause you know, sometimes you're in a bubble?

• 2:19:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  And you think something's really cool?

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:19:16Jocko Willink?

  And no one else does. I have been in that bubble many times in my life where I thought something was really cool. And then I get outside the bubble and people don't think it's cool.

• 2:19:24Speaker 01

  Bro, my whole life.

• 2:19:26Jocko Willink?

  So I was under suspicion that this situation where I like this tea, this random tea, and then I got it tweaked to my specific liking. And I thought, well, okay, not only have I taken a random thing, and then I've tweaked it to be specifically what I like. I'm thinking to myself like, what seven people in the world are gonna dig this? Well, what I should have done was taking it and giving it to a bunch of people and said, hey, is this, what do you think of this? And they, cause by the time we did that, we basically did that. And you realize that it tastes really, really good. It's a unique. Flavorful taste and I think that's like part one is that it tastes really good. It doesn't taste like anything else. It's just got a very, it doesn't taste like a juice. It doesn't taste like a tea.

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  What does it taste like? It just tastes like it. It tastes like what it tastes like and it tastes good and universally. Universally, people go, oh yeah, that's that's that tastes great. It's just a universally good tasting thing. And then on top of that, you get the microdose of caffeine, just the microdose. So it's this thing that just comes in subsurface and just gives it to you, but it doesn't override your normal senses. And then on top of that, you got the antioxidant thing, which for all I know, it's just, just repairing and taking care of your body, right? So you combine all those things together and we got something very popular on our hands. And again, I thought that inside my bubble, I thought of something inside my bubble was going to be popular.

• 2:20:55Jocko Willink?

  But now I realize that it's a very, everybody loves the way it tastes and everybody loves the way it makes you feel. Yeah. So what I gotta do is order, you know, through the manufacturer, ordered a ton of it and go online. Yeah. And you know, some people also said, hey, you know what? Jocko. Stuff costs too much and it costs a lot because we got a high quality container to put it in. The tin, as it's known. Luxurious tin. The luxury, the luxurious. You know what it was? It was deluxe. Deluxe, deluxe. I knew I didn't say luxurious. I did, I forgot to rewind that part, but the tin costs a lot of money to make and so that's what it is. Well, when people said it was too expensive, I said, oh, okay, cool.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  I'll put it in a box also. So we got it coming in a box. You can still get it in the tin because you need at least a one tin, right? Oh yeah, multi-purpose tactical. Multi-purpose tactical and you probably need a few of them in your house. Pens, check. Screws and nails, check.

• 2:21:56Jocko Willink?

  You, and tea itself, check. And then you're also going to be able to buy it in big box with a hundred count in there. So we're taking care of you on that end. Yeah. Again, here I was, all I was wrote down to say was we have Jocko White Tea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless I talk about it for eight minutes. What is wrong with me? You gotta, well. And you know what? I think it's too much Jocko White Tea has got me talking. It got me mentally engaged at such a level that I need to just take it easy. Called the positive feedback loop. Also, we got a book, Extreme Ownership.

• 2:22:29Jocko Willink?

  It's about combat leadership, therefore, it's about all leadership. Written by myself and my brother Leif Babin. And if you buy the audio version, it's read by myself and my brother Leif Babin. So you can check that out. It's also at Amazon. Appreciate it.

• 2:22:47Jocko Willink?

  Following that,

• 2:22:50Jocko Willink?

  if you happen to want to continue this conversation that we're having right now, or you just want to get after it on the interwebs, that's cool. You can do it. We are there.

• 2:23:01Jocko Willink?

  We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram and you know that we's at that Facebooky.

• 2:23:10Jocko Willink?

  Echo.

• 2:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to everybody for listening, for joining us

• 2:23:27Jocko Willink?

  as we join you. Trying to figure out how to get better. And to my brothers in arms in the military overseas hunting down evil and destroying it. You all out there, stay aggressive and stay ahead of the enemy.

• 2:23:47Jocko Willink?

  And the police and law enforcement, thanks for holding the line

• 2:23:53Jocko Willink?

  and fighting crime. And the firefighters, of course, thanks for your vigilance and your courage under actual fire.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  And the rest of you troopers out there listening, honing your skills, building buildings, creating creations, designing designs, developing developments,

• 2:24:22Jocko Willink?

  working on what you are working on.

• 2:24:27Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for your relentless pursuit of excellence and of growth and of progress.

• 2:24:37Jocko Willink?

  And most of all, thank you

• 2:24:42Jocko Willink?

  for getting after it.

• 2:24:45Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.