102: No One Owes You Anything. Using Ultimatums. Moving On. Useful Tips for Using Extreme Ownership at Work.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:14 - Should you ever use ultimatums? 0:06:27 - How to Let go of resentment from High school and the past. 0:17:02 - Is it okay to have a brown belt Jiu jitsu instructor? 0:24:02 - Dealing with team members only in it for them self. 0:34:52 - How to avoid having Extreme Ownership taken for weakness. 0:47:38 - How can Discipline be a weakness? 1:23:46 - How would "young Jocko" perform under "Commander Willink"? 1:30:34 - Advice for your younger self. 1:36:48 - Advice from the Tribe of Mentors. 1:53:29 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 2:19:29 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 102 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  And we are rolling into some Q and A from the interwebs.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  So, let's go.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Right to it.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Jocko, is there ever a good time to use an ultimatum?

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  That's a great question and I think the answer is actually, I think when everyone thinks about the answer, I think it's pretty self-evident and I think a lot of people will agree with it. Okay, so is there ever a good time to use an ultimatum? I think sometimes there is, but it's seldom. It's actually very seldom, but when enough is truly enough,

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  then you gotta draw the line and you gotta hold the line, right? So you gotta make an ultimatum. One thing that is extremely critical is that you should never make an ultimatum that you won't or can't keep.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Like a bluff.

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't bluff. If you say it, do it.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10Jocko Willink?

  And what's interesting from a job perspective, so like in the workplace perspective,

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  let's say up the chain of command, up the chain of command, it's not good, right? So, so let's say you're my boss and I come in and say, Echo, I want a raise. I want to buy this Friday or I'm out of here. Right? That's an ultimatum and that means I'm trying to hold you hostage. Most people do not like being held hostage. So my, my chances of actually supporting what you're trying to make happen are very small because I'm actually mad at you. I don't want to support you. Oh, you're a big critical guy because you pressed record and you made some videos for me. You know what I mean? Like, it's like that.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  But you're throwing an ultimatum at me?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's where we're at. Like, we couldn't have a conversation, we couldn't come to an agreement. So you're gonna walk into me, I'm the boss, I just reversed roles. So you're gonna walk into me, I'm the boss, and you're gonna say, Jocko, I want a raise and I want it now, or I am out of here on Friday. That's my ultimatum. Well, what are you doing? Right? Are you building a relationship with me? No. Are you giving any room to negotiate or are you giving yourself any room to maneuver? No, you're not. You're not giving yourself any room to maneuver. So that one generally doesn't work very well. Now, now, if you have another job offer that someone's put in front of you, that's legit and it's good and it's solid.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  And, and you come into me and say, hey, Jocko, I got another job offer. They want an answer by Friday. Here's what they're gonna pay me. I'm not, this isn't a threat. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm being straight up with you. But if you don't give me what I want by Friday, I'm gonna have to leave and go because I gotta, I gotta improve my future.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54Jocko Willink?

  And I'd say, hey, man, that sounds like a great deal of working for them. Go.

• 2:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? But that, so that's, that's an ultimatum, but it's a rational one, right? Because you actually have a backup and you actually are trying to be straightforward with me.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  So, so that's an ultimatum, but it's, it's like a logical one. Now, down the chain of command. People don't like ultimatums either. For instance, you know, uh, Echo, if you don't have this project done by Friday, you're fired. So, so now I put a big ultimatum on you and you don't like that anymore than the boss. People don't like having ultimatums put on them. So what you really do, if you have to use ultimatums down the chain of command, you should check your leadership real, real quick. Cause you've made some mistakes, right? People don't understand the deadlines. People don't understand what did you want them to do? People don't understand why they're doing what they're doing. There's all kinds of things that they don't understand if you have to start throwing ultimatums around as a boss.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  So really, if you find yourself using ultimatums, then you, you need to check your leadership. Now, that being said, if you, if I've talked to you, if I've coached you, if I've counseled you, if I've done a written statement on you and told you exactly what it is that I need Echo to do. And now we've, we've passed the point of no return. And I go, okay, Echo, here's what I asked you to do. You didn't do it. This is the ultimatum. If you don't start making three videos a week, you are not going to be here anymore. And you'd say, you'd either say, okay, well, I'm gonna do it. Or screw Jocko, he's a jerk. I'm out of here. Either way,

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  I've moved forward because you weren't doing it before. And that's sort of, I know that that example is.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, kinda.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  It's close to home.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  So ultimatums, be very, very careful. Make sure if you're gonna use it, it's gotta be real. You've got to enforce it.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  And check yourself. Don't, don't, don't get yourself in a position where you can't maneuver anymore. That's the biggest, that to me, that's the biggest point.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  You never want to take away your ability to move maneuver. You don't want to do that.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. And it's, or it feels like, you know, just how you kind of said it to me. Well, that first one where the tone has like a lot to do with it. Yeah. Like how you were like, you know, you're legitimate, logical.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  Right, right.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  It seemed like

• 5:25Speaker 01

  it wasn't like the first one. The first one was like, give me this or I'm out of here kind of thing. And then the second, your second example is sort of like, hey, you know, yeah, it feels like if someone did that to me, either way, up or down,

• 5:39Speaker 01

  I feel like you would still maintain the relationship, you know, like, let's say, let's say it worked out. And it was like, okay, you know, whatever, you got the raise or whatever. And if you said in that crazy tone or whatever, or that real fed up tone. You're still like, okay, cool. We, we worked it out. I got what I want, but like, but, um, but.

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  We know we've dinged the relationship.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's dinged.

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  And we don't want to be dinging our relationships. We want to be building those things.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think a lot of times people like they'll ding a relationship and then they'll just move on like nothing. But meanwhile, the other person is like, hey, like, don't, don't forget what you said to me and how you said that last week.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  Time heals the wounds, but it doesn't remove the scars.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 6:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I feel like. Slapshot.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next question.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Next question. Graduated high school, crushed it, straight A's.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Helped my classmates, was kind, kind and helpful and expected them to be. Meanwhile, they put me down, mocked me, never loved me. In a room with 30 people, I was always alone. Inner voice tells me to go after the past, seek revenge, keep looking at their profiles, profiles, like online profiles.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, social media.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Should I go?

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  Now he's got a series of questions here.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Should I go after them and try to fix the past, either by revenge or else? Should I, should I remove them from social media and leave the, the Facebook group? Should I attend the reunion? Why have they even been in my life?

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so let's break those down. Number one. Should I go after them and try to fix the past? Either by revenge or something else? The answer to that, in my opinion, is no, man. Who cares? They're high school kids. Move on. Get on with your life.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  Disagree, agree?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that, that one to me is pretty straightforward. Don't worry about these humans. I actually had a couple of conversations with, with, uh, my oldest daughters. Haven't had this one with my son yet, but my older daughters, which is, hey, look, these people that are around right now that you think are so important in high school.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  They're not, you know, some of them might be, you might have some lifelong friends from high school. I get that, but these people that are not nice to you, you won't be thinking about them. So I don't, I'm not sure how old this individual is, but he's got a couple more years before he won't be thinking about these people anymore. So just get there earlier. Question two, should I remove them from social media and leave this Facebook group? Okay, this is a little bit tricky, in my opinion. First of all, if you can, if you can stay, if you can keep them on social media, but ignore them completely, just leave them alone. Just leave it and just totally ignore them. Because when you leave them or whatever, you're kind of, aren't you kind of making a scene?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I just want to make sure. So you don't want to make a scene?

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, like when you unfriend them or whatever.

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  Which, yeah, didn't you and I have some situation with the unfriend?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did, yeah, actually.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  So, okay, so I, I know that I wait, who unfriended you? My wife?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  I think you did it.

• 8:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, no, no, no, I didn't even know how to do it.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 8:55Jocko Willink?

  But I, I

• 8:56Speaker 01

  You figured it out.

• 8:56Jocko Willink?

  No, I didn't. So I didn't ever have social media until two years ago, but all of a sudden I saw Echo

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  friends with my wife. I said, wait, wait, wait, she's like showing me something and she says, and I see Echo. And I said, why are you friends with people that, why are you friends with people that I know? Un, or click unfriend on that. And I didn't even know it was a big deal. I just thought, you know, hey, that means

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  and

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  And then I didn't realize it's a big deal.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  It's a big deal, man.

• 9:25Jocko Willink?

  I unfriended him.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Messed up. I thought you did it purposefully, knowing it's a big deal, but not understanding that it's even a bigger deal than, you know, the kind where you're like unfriend him as a joke. That was like, it was totally your personality at that time.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you thought I did that to you?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like as a joke, like unfriend him, you know?

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  Did you say something to me like immediately? Or was it, did a month go by where I didn't make a joke about it?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I forget, I forget what.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  So, so it is kind of making a scene.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  If you, if you unfriend this person, or you leave the group, then you're just creating a little firestorm. But I will say this, if you can't, if you can't keep yourself from checking on them, then you might have to do that. So try it for a couple of weeks, just say, I'm not looking at them.

• 10:13Jocko Willink?

  Let them go, just leave them.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  If you can't do that, then delete them and leave the group or whatever. So, number three, should I attend the reunion?

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  My answer to that is negative. Don't. Why would you? These people are negative. They have, they, they bring back negative memories. They didn't treat you well. They, but why would you? You don't need them. Move on. Again, key word, I think, move on.

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  And then the last question is, why have they even been in my life?

• 10:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, I think, just like anything else, bad that happens in life, the things that are bad that happen in life can either teach you or break you. And you gotta decide what you want them to do. I vote that you, you allow it to teach you. I, I, I vote that you learn from these people, that you learn how to, forget about the past, that you learn how to ignore people that are negative, that you learn to control your vengeful ideas. And that you learn to move on into the future where you're going to meet better people and better times are to be had. That's what I would recommend. Don't worry about these people from the past. They're caught up in this weird world.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  High school. This is high school, right? We're caught up in high school world. Don't worry about high school.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  Get into the world.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:46Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  And I got, I've had one daughter that now graduated from high school. I got two kids in high school right now.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  Drama. There's drama, but actually, believe it or not, there hasn't been a lot of drama with my kids.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  Not a lot of high school drama.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  That doesn't surprise me, really.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  But, but I see it. It does happen.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:06Jocko Willink?

  And I remember the drama.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  I'd say it, uh, my guess, I don't know. It's been a long time since high school for me personally, but yeah, man, I think that's life, you know? High school is drama. Shoot, a bunch of kids not knowing nothing.

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  Is there more drama in high school than there is in life?

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it's because it's stuck together.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:29Jocko Willink?

  Like you're stuck there.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Depends on your life. Like if you just consider a typical high school versus my life, yeah, way more in high school. It's no drama in my, I mean, your drama, that's it. And you're not even the drama, really? The, yeah, it, it, they're all high school, all of them, even this guy, obviously, you know? So it's gonna feel like way more than it is, for sure. Uh, but you know, when you, when you, the, the further you go along in life, the, the more you realize that this means less and less. These types of things, anyway. When you consider it, high school is really just for learning. Sure, you learn like these social things and stuff like that.

• 13:04Jocko Willink?

  Things too. You know what I just thought of is, is what's interesting about this is if you're looking back on high school, either with fond memories or with negative memories, either way, it's not a great thing. Cause you could be like Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite. Right? Who's constantly living back his high school football games.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  And he's wishing he made that pass and, you know what I mean? Won the state championship or whatever.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you get that.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  That's not good.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  Right? That you, that means you're stuck in high school. You peaked in high school.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:34Jocko Willink?

  If you're looking back at the negative things, same thing.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:37Jocko Willink?

  Who, who, no, move forward.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. In his defense, though, obviously, he just graduated. That's what, so his life really is this, really? You know, it's too new. It's like, you know, someone.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  More good stuff's gonna happen, brother. Just move on and get after it.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. The social media thing, though. Say this, because there's, there's little levels of like unfriending, whatever. You can unfollow someone. I, I'm assuming this is Facebook. I don't know. There, you know, there's so many. He could be talking about other stuff, but on Facebook, you can still remain, remain friends, but just unfollow them. So you won't get all their stuff.

• 14:11Jocko Willink?

  Do they know that?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  So they're not.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I'm sure many people have unfollowed me and I don't know that I've never gotten the alert or whatever. Um, I would say leave the group fully.

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you're giving. I would listen to your advice more than me because I don't understand it as much as you do. I don't, I don't understand the Facebook group thing.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, depends how many people are in the group.

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  It seemed like who's gonna make a scene. I don't like to make a scene.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  So I'd be like, well, no, I'm just gonna ignore it.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think leaving the group is a scene. If it is, I mean, obviously it depends on how many people in the group. The less people in the group, the more the scene is gonna be, or if he's always posting, if he's, he's the head of the group or something like this, then yeah.

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  You know how in the past there was etiquette schools? I went, I went to, I went to etiquette classes when I went to Oscar candidate school in Pensacola, Florida. And they teach you which knife to use, which fork to use, all that stuff. And they teach you things, for instance, you might not know this. If you take a bite of food and there's something in that bite of food that you don't wanna eat. A bone, a whatever. The way to properly get it out of your mouth is to use your fork, put it on the fork and put it back down on the plate.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  So like, okay, gotcha.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  They would say the same. So that's the type of thing.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  There should be a class.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  Or we're going to a point where people are gonna need a class on social media etiquette.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually, that's not a bad idea.

• 15:34Jocko Willink?

  You should teach it. All right. Let's move on. I'm done.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, the high school.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  Move on, dude. Move on, brother. Move on. Let's move on from that question.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  Man, you know, that's like, that's like, you know, that's we focused on social media, but that's just about everything, right? Anything that you're caught up in.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  Anything that you're caught up in.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:56Jocko Willink?

  And that's dragging you down. Just move on.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:59Jocko Willink?

  Whether it's a girl, whether it's the job you should have had, whether it's the investment you should have made, whether it's the the house you didn't buy that you should have, all those things.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  Move on, man. It's gone. Move on.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like high school is this really common one, you know, like the old classic story of the person who got bullied in high school and then

• 16:19Jocko Willink?

  Going back for the vengeance.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, like that kind of stuff, but yeah, the more, and this is what it feels like too. I don't know. I'm not everyone, but the more you do for yourself after high school.

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  The less high school is gonna mean.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Like this isn't gonna, and you know how they say.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Uncle Rico, man, he, he, you sell him Tupperware.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:40Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't working out good for him.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:42Jocko Willink?

  He, high school was still a big deal to him.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, guys who are like, they always talk about high school football or whatever, just and there's guys like that for sure. Uh, then you can, it's kind of an indicator, you know, that, oh, you know, you might not be doing much now, you know?

• 16:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Especially if they're like forty or something like that.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm thinking about starting jujitsu in my MMA gym, but the instructor is a brown belt. Should I go train with him or look for a black belt?

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, if you're at an MMA gym, they have brown belt. That's awesome. I dream of the brown belt. I think he's probably really good. I think it's probably fight oriented because it's in a fight, fight gym.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  Which is good, in my opinion. And you know, the, the fact of the matter is, and we've said this before, brown belt, purple belt, black belt. There's good teachers in all those. Blue belt, you know, borderline, really. You can learn some good fundamentals from a solid blue belt, though.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 17:44Jocko Willink?

  But, um, and also there's some black belts that are not good teachers. And there's some purple belts that are phenomenal teachers. So, yeah, go train.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:56Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a pretty simple question.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, the.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  It depend, you know how you just said like some, some purple belts are great teachers. So the, the belt usually for the most part just indicates the, the vast, like the knowledge, you know? So it's given that they're a good teacher. So yeah, if it's a brown belt, shoot, that's a lot of knowledge. And just given that he's all right or better teacher, that's going to be legit. And there is actually blue belts as well.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I shouldn't even said that. There's some blue belts that are really good teachers.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, although it does, you know, you get a purple belt teacher versus a blue belt teacher and they're good. Teachers, both of them, of course you're going to want to pray because he's going to have more knowledge, the purple belt, you know? So, you know, blue belt.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  In most cases.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it is.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  In most cases.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you're just starting, bro, you can pray, you're just going to be like a sponge.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't even know what, you, you know what's interesting? You could probably barely tell. If you're a white belt and you roll with a purple belt and a black belt, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. All you know is you got your ass whooped. That's what you know. That's all you know. You don't know how easy it was for them because it's the same level for both. Neither one of those people's trying hard against a white belt.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and yeah, and if they know how to teach, like I said, he's an instructor. He's the instructor, the brown belt. Yeah, he's going to be fine. In fact, that's way more common than, I mean, we're in San Diego. Even in San Diego, though, there's the brown belt instructors for sure.

• 19:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  And they're good too.

• 19:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  And especially if you're just starting, yeah, man, good, do that. And yeah, just like how you said though, sometimes the black belt instructor, he'll be good at rolling. He'll be good at jujitsu and he can win tournaments, but he can't really instruct that good. Or they, or you get like situations where, I mean, I wouldn't say it's super common, but it's there for sure. Is, um, you know, you ever heard the, the expression curse of knowledge, right? Where it's like you've been a black belt for so long or anything, right? It's just so good at something that you forget what it's like to be a beginner.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  So you kind of, you know, you might skip over some details that are kind of critical if you're a beginner. You know, you just kind of, your subconscious just assumes that this person knows a certain amount of things, you know? Kind of, you can get that. Like that's, I think a lot of times what jams up a, a really advanced.

• 20:06Jocko Willink?

  Dean was watching Andy and Noah roll. We were doing some rounds with Andy and. Noah tucked his foot underneath the far arm on an arm lock from a cross like cross side like a regular arm lock and Noah's tucking his foot under there and Dean says, Dean, you know, hey, that's a really good detail. Who taught you that? And I was like, I taught him and he was like, I taught him and no, but that's something that Dean taught me and I don't know who taught Noah, but it's just, that's the type of detail that you're talking about where that is a small thing. You gotta be in Jiu-Jitsu for, you gotta get a lot of other things right before someone says, hey, when you're

• 20:48Jocko Willink?

  arm locking someone on the far side, put your, put your toes basically underneath their arm to secure their shoulder a little bit better.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's deep.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Jocko Willink?

  There's, so there's those kinds of details. There's another thing where I had a, a finish for Dean or Dean was teaching me an arm lock finish and I would try it and I would try it and I would try it and I would try it and it would never work. I tried it on him 50 times and finally one day he says, hey, when you do that move, put the pressure here instead of here. The next time I did it to him worked.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:19Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  And then one little detail.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  Same thing happened the other day with Andy. I was going with Andy and we were doing arm lock escapes and he said, hey, you're putting your pressure here. He showed me where I was putting the pressure. He said, put it here. And I was like, hmm. Next time I did it to him, he's like, that hurts so bad.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  So it's weird. It's the little details that again, the better the instructor is, the, the more details you're gonna get and most, well, what's important about this is until you are get to a certain level, you, those details don't even mean anything to you.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:59Jocko Willink?

  Cause you, you can't worry about where you're putting some little detail on an arm lock when you don't even know how to do the arm lock. You gotta be pretty damn good at the arm lock before you start looking at the little tiny details.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then that's like, that was actually gonna be part of the point where you get a, a, a black belt, super advanced level instructor, but he's not necessarily that good at being a teacher. He'll start teaching those details and all the stuff and focusing and whoa, you just skipped over the part to teach them how to do the actual arm bar. But he's like, kind of subconsciously, they'll be like, he'll, the curse of knowledge says that it's kind of just assumed.

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  This is, this is good for the Jiu-Jitsu journey. I used to say this, when I'm teaching you a jiu-jitsu move.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  Let's say there's 10 things that you have to do to make the jiu-jitsu move work. I can teach you five of them.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  The other five you have to figure out because it's where you're putting your weight and it's where you're putting your balance. Dean might be able to teach you seven.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  Maybe, maybe if you take a different class, Andy will teach you an eighth one. But there's things that you have to figure out on your own, on top of the things that you can be shown.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  That's why you gotta roll.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  You gotta roll. Cause that's the only way you figure out if it actually works or not and what little adjustments you have to make.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, fully. Especially if you have a good instructor, they can see it too. You know, like you, you know, when you drill something or when you're doing the technique just with your partner and stuff, you're like, okay, yeah, good. That's good technique. And then when the guy's moving and trying to defend or whatever, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's not working. And really obvious answer is yeah, because he's not letting you do it, but you know, someone like an instructor can look and see like, oh, look, you're letting him do this or whatever. You're forgetting to do this.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, yeah, I, I agree with you. Go train with the brown belt guy.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, go train.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. But if you're not learning nothing, then you can make that evaluation. But the fact that he's a brown belt.

• 23:59Jocko Willink?

  You'll be learning a ton.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  You'll be learning a ton, given that, for sure. Next question. You talk about playing the game, quote unquote, to win. But what about people that play the game to win for themselves? And how do I defeat them?

• 24:15Jocko Willink?

  That's a good, good question and it, it hit me.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:20Jocko Willink?

  When I saw that question, I was, ooh, that's a good point. And that's a good, there's a very important distinction there because I'm always saying play the game.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you gotta play the game.

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  You gotta, you gotta build the relationships with the boss and you gotta learn what they like and you gotta toe the party line. You gotta do the little things. You gotta support the, the corporate headquarters or the boss or the man, right? Or whatever entity is up in that ivory tower. I want you to play the game.

• 24:50Jocko Willink?

  Get them on your side. And the reason I say to do those things is that so you can get more control, so that people ask your opinion, so that you get listened to. So that perhaps you get promoted.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  Which is good.

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  But the reason you're doing all those things, the reason that you're playing the game is to help your team accomplish the mission. That's what you are trying to do. It's to help your team accomplish the mission.

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  Now, the, the other side of that is what this question is about. People that are playing the game for personal gain.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  They, they play the game so that they can get listened to, so they can drive their personal agenda.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  So they, so they can get promoted and they want to get promoted so that they can abuse their power. And maybe that abuse of power is just, is just working less. Maybe it's making other people do their crap jobs, whatever, whatever the case may be. But they've got an agenda and they're going to try and get promoted so they can take care of themselves. And that is not why I tell you to play the game. And that's not why I played the game. And I definitely played the game and I played to win. But I played because I wanted my, my squad or my platoon or my task unit or my training command to be able to better accomplish our mission. That's why I played the game.

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 26:26Jocko Willink?

  there is a secondary benefit of playing the game and that is that you could possibly get promoted earlier. You could get praise from the boss that looks good on your record and, and all those things can happen when you're playing the game. But that's just like collateral sort of fringe benefits. But that's not why you're playing the game. You play the game to help the team win. And when the team wins, you win. Which also makes the team win again. So it's like a positive cycle because you start developing a good reputation. Now you get more leeway from the boss and the more leeway you get from the boss, the more you have the ability to make maneuvers on the battlefield, the more you can maneuver on the battlefield, the more offensive you could be, the more offensive you could be, the more you win.

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  And then you get more ability to move more because your boss is giving you even more room to maneuver. So it's a, it's a cycle. It's a good, positive cycle.

• 27:17Jocko Willink?

  Now, when you have someone that's on the team that's playing the game for themselves, first of all, no one likes that person, right? Everyone can see that person. No one likes them. And they're, believe me, the military, the military has unbelievable people that play the game for the best possible reasons to help their platoon and help the mission and help succeed. There's also plenty of people in the military and in every, every different line of work. There's plenty of people that play the game because they want to, they want to, they're looking out for themselves, looking out for number one, right? Isn't that the expression? They're looking out for number one. There's plenty of people. And I dealt with people like

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  that all the time. And what did I do? I used it to my advantage. And I'll tell you what, I would get in their head. And what I would do is I would make them think that the best way for them to win for themselves personally, was for the team to win. I would get that into their head because a lot of times they miss that point. They're looking out for themselves. They're not worried about the team. And I would get them thinking that they're going to look the best if the team wins. Hey, if you really want to look good, the best way you can get promoted is if we look good, you know, if the team does great. If you get us the gear we want, the equipment we want, their training that we need, that's the best way you're going to look awesome because we're going to succeed more and that's going to make you look good. And I'm, of course, I'm going to be more tactful and I'm

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  not saying it like that, but I'm saying it. Right, right. Getting those words, getting them, getting the messaging is there. I'm going to be saying things, hey, you know, our boss doesn't like, our boss doesn't like leaders that complain, right? You know, you can tell the boss, he doesn't like complainers. You know what I mean? Little, little things like that, right? Hey, the boss, the boss likes to hear the truth about stuff. He wants to know, you know what I mean? Little things like that.

• 29:07Jocko Willink?

  And you know, here's the thing, that person, that person might get the promotion.

• 29:14Jocko Willink?

  Because what you've done is you've helped them act correctly, actually. And there's a chance, a decent chance, a good chance even, that they carry that forward. They realize that, hey, the best way to play the game is to help the team. And the best way to look good is to help, is to make the team good and succeed at the mission.

• 29:34Jocko Willink?

  And it's really, well, you know, one of the classic cases, and we'll get into ownership a little bit, but if something goes wrong, right, the person that's looking out for themselves blames everyone else. And, and so that's a challenge, right? Because once you start blaming, once that boss starts blaming everyone, then the whole team starts blaming each other. So how do you fix that? Well, we've talked about it a million times. You know, you step up and say, hey, you know, boss, it's my fault. And boss goes, that's right, it's your fault.

• 30:05Jocko Willink?

  And there's a, there's a good chance that they recognize how positive that is. And it may take a while, and it may never happen because some people are just savages, right? Some people are just complete, they only care about themselves. They only care about the next promotion and getting the next award and getting the next bit of recognition. There's people like that. They're, they're horrible. They're horrible. They exist, but they're pretty small. Most people, if they see, hey, this, this is working for this guy. It can work for me too, and that starts to spread. And the other thing that happens, I think, is if someone's a, just a flagrant self-promoter.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  You might get them one promotion because you were there to kind of make them look good. But the next time around, they're going to get seen, they're going to get found out. They're gonna, people are going to realize what kind of person they are. And that's, that's where it catches up with them. So you keep playing the game, you keep, you keep working hard. Don't worry about them and actually do your best to help them out. The person that's like self-promoting, do your best to help them out. If they're the boss, make them look good. I always want to make my boss look good.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:26Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna help you in the long run. It hurts sometimes.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to do sometimes.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:31Jocko Willink?

  Our ego gets in the way sometimes. Gotta put that ego in check. Because what's more important? Because if you're my boss, Echo, and you're doing this just to make yourself look good, if I then undermine you, well, and now we don't accomplish the mission as well, I'm actually a bad person because I didn't do my best to accomplish the mission.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:50Jocko Willink?

  Right? We didn't look good.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  I'm not worried about how we look, but we failed in our mission, or we didn't do our mission to the best of our ability. So no, I'm not gonna let that happen. You wanna look great? Cool. I wanna make you look great, cuz I want us to look great doing our mission, cuz that's what's important to me.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  And if so, so some of the collateral damage of that is that you look great even though you're a jerk, and I get you promoted, that's okay. Cuz eventually you're gonna get found out. Or you're gonna learn to be a better person and to support the team, and that's how you got promoted, and you're gonna realize that and you'll become a good leader.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I agree with that when like I always have where people can see that too.

• 32:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, they can see it.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  You know, like if your boss is like a self-promoter or whatever, and you have it in your head, I understand, I understand this cuz I've been in a situation where I'm like, shoot, I've, I kinda feel inside like I don't wanna like go make an effort to make him look good kinda thing cuz it's like he doesn't deserve it kinda thing. And what, like what, I'm gonna make him look good and now everyone's gonna think that he looks good kinda thing, but then when you really think about it, no, they're not. Like they see exactly how that guy acts, you know?

• 32:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  You're right. And the same goes though for you. Like if you, if you're like to, you know, if you're just focusing on the, the positive stuff, you know, you know how like you're, what do you, you know, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. If you're really doing that, like people notice that too. They'll be like, man, that, that guy's like really positive.

• 33:16Jocko Willink?

  Good attitude.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Really focusing on this, you know, kinda thing. Like people see it.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  And this doesn't mean you're just Mr. Positive Sugarcoat and everything and that. No, it's not, we're not talking about that. But you are not focusing on the negative. Instead of saying, oh, we're horrible at this. You say, you know what? We got some deficiencies here. Here's what I'm gonna do to fix them.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 33:36Jocko Willink?

  How simple is that?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Jocko Willink?

  Just do better.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the point is, people, they see, they see, don't think that, you know, like, you're gonna help, you know, make this guy look good, and they're just gonna, they're gonna not see it, and they're just gonna fall for the, his trick or something. Ah, they see that.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  They see it.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Most of the time.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  Most of the time.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. That example that you said about, um, uh, playing to their ego or whatever, where you're like, hey, you know, you know, you should, you're gonna look really good if we have done this. So you ever seen the movie Moana?

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  I saw three minutes of it.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Oh, see, there you go. She does, uh, so the guy, the main guy's, the, the demigod, his name is Maui, played by The Rock, by the way, Dwayne Johnson. Great movie, by the way. Um, she does him like that. She's like, hey, let's, they gotta go do this mission, you know, to restore the heart, you know, whatever, it's a long story, but, and he's like, you know, whatever, reluctant, and he's like, she's like, hey, you'll be a hero again. And he's like, I'm already a hero. She's like, well.

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Not for a while, you know, you haven't done anything lately. But if you do this, then you'll be the hero to everyone. And, yeah, and, and of course, he does it, of course, but yeah, man, it's good.

• 34:43Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you gotta play to the ego.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  It works, it is proof on, on Moana.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  Moana.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  I have to say that in a very competitive environment, extreme ownership can be used by your enemies or the people that want your position. When you take ownership over all faults of your team members, you guys become, you guys become better and get healthier, a healthier attitude, but that takes time. So until your team improves and start to get better results, your opponents will take those tens of, it was my fault, and present them to your boss as proof that, yeah, this guy is not good, or at least not confident enough, and looks weak. Is not my case. For me, it worked great, but I've seen it happening to few colleagues

• 35:36Speaker 01

  who just didn't have good team members and they took their extreme ownership for weakness and just took advantage of that.

• 35:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what we've got here is what he's saying is extreme ownership, if you're taking extreme ownership of things, your enemies can actually take advantage of that. And in this guy's case.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Right, like in the, like in the earlier stages of it.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and he said, well, actually, he says that for him, it's worked great.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:00Jocko Willink?

  But that he's seen some of his compadres who have started to take ownership and they're, they've got weak team and the team, what does he say here? What's the words he uses? They didn't have good team members and they took their extreme ownership for weakness and took advantage of it. Okay, so first of all, out of the gate, if you have weak or bad team members, that is the first thing the leader needs to take ownership of, right? If you have truly weak and bad team members, then you need to either train them or coach them or get rid of them. That, that's the first thing. So if you've got backstabbing, bad team members that are

• 36:44Jocko Willink?

  looking to claw you down as the leader, you got a problem with those people and you need to fix that problem, number one. So let's just start with that. Number two, and this is, this is, there's two, two kind of parts of this. There's an insecurity, a level of insecurity, and there's a level of, or a, a matter of perception. The insecurity is the thing that says, if I say this is my fault and everyone up and down the chain of command is going to say, fire him, fire him, it's his fault. But I, I want you to think about how that's actually perceived. If what you do is, let's take the other example, is what you do is you blame everyone else.

• 37:29Jocko Willink?

  If that's your attitude, if, if your attitude is, it wasn't my fault, it was his fault, it was her fault, it was their fault, it was not me, I'm just the person in charge, it's not me. Think about that statement. It's not my fault, it's, it's my team's fault. I'm just the person in charge, it's not my fault. Think about that. Whenever you're placing blame, if you're a leader and you're placing blame on your team.

• 37:51Jocko Willink?

  What you're saying is, hey, it's not my fault. It's my team's fault. I'm just the leader here. I'm not the one out there in the field doing the work. I'm not the one that's making those decisions. I'm not the one that's I'm not the one that's, you know, uh, interacting with customers. I'm not the one that's doing that. So this isn't my fault. It's my team's fault. Well, meanwhile, guess who's in charge of the team? You are. So the minute that you start saying it wasn't my fault and it's for everyone else's fault, that if you think about how you look to your boss, it's laughable. You look like an idiot.

• 38:31Jocko Willink?

  You don't look like a good leader. So don't fall for it. And you know what? I'm actually not saying that you'll never get fired if you take ownership. Cause you know what? If you do something that's really bad, there's absolutely a chance you could get fired. If you do something that cost a bunch of money or was immoral or illegal, or you covered something up and or your team covered something up, or you did something that was truly wrong. And you take ownership of it. Yeah, you might still get fired. You know what? That happens in the Navy. In the Navy, if your ship runs aground or like lately, there's been some collisions on these ships and I think, uh, Leif and I might talk about those at some point on the podcast, but

• 39:12Jocko Willink?

  the captain of the ship is done. It doesn't matter if he was on the ship or not. He could be, cause just because the ship's at sea, the captain might've had to flown to another ship to talk to the admiral. If his ship crashes, he's done. It doesn't matter if he's there or not. He's responsible for the training. He's responsible for the actions. He's responsible for everything that's happened on that ship. And he's getting fired. And he, and, and also if he did do something wrong, well, yeah, he's, and he takes ownership of it. It doesn't matter. He's getting fired. So I'm not saying you're never going to get fired.

• 39:42Jocko Willink?

  But generally, generally, and this is, when I say generally, this is the vast majority of the time. This is 99% of the time. If you take ownership, you don't look like a weak boss. You look like a strong boss that is taking ownership of the problems and is going to get the problem solved. I say this over and over again.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  And as always, you don't just have to own the problems, you have to own the solutions to the problems too. So this is the situation here. You got this guy, people, if you're in charge of a bad team and you're taking ownership, the bad team is what you have to fix. You have to fix it. You have to train them. You have to, you have to coach them. You have to mentor them. You have to do all those things. And if you can't get them to get on board with the program, then you've got to get rid of them. Or get rid of that one or two bad people that are causing the infraction and causing that cancer to spread. Get rid of them. Set the example. Promote somebody that's hungry and young and wants to get after it.

• 40:43Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to take ownership of the team, the problems, the weak people on the team. You've got to take ownership of the solutions and get them solved.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  It seems like, and I kind of noticed this from the beginning.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  Go.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  That when you take.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  I was going to cut you off with, I have talked about this before. Sometimes people say, they think if they say, I'll take ownership of this, then the problems, then it's like they're, then they're safe.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah.

• 41:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is not the case. Just because you say, hey, this is my fault. It's my fault. I'm taking ownership of this. That doesn't mean the problem is solved. There's a problem.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:23Jocko Willink?

  You have to say, yes, there's a problem here. I'm taking ownership of it. It's my fault because I'm in charge. And this is what we're going to do to fix it. And then you have to actually go and fix it.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  There's the part right there. Yeah. That's it.

• 41:35Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you come to me 12 times and you say, hey, Joe, we didn't get the podcast out because I forgot to hit record.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Hey, that's my bust.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  That's my bust. Okay. Well, hey, from now on, here's what we're do. I'm going to make sure that we have these things in place. And I hooked up a light and it's going to, if the thing isn't recording, the, the studio is going to go dark.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if you remember this because this might be just the way you are, but when we went to.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  I remember it.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Where did we go? We went like last trip, we went on, we're driving. We went to, oh, Charlie Plum.

• 42:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I'm pretty sure it's Charlie Plum. And we were looking for, I can't remember what we were looking for, either the hotel or the, the place or wherever.

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  A steakhouse.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  So we're going and I was kind of navigating and you were kind of navigating, kind of trying to help. Not trying to help, but you were kind of navigating, but kind of not. It really seemed like, to me anyway, you were like, okay, I'll let you kind of navigate. And we, uh, we took a wrong turn, whatever, you know, we're off track or whatever. And I was like, okay, I gotta take extreme ownership right now. Cause like, right now is like the perfect time to take extreme ownership. Or should I say the worst time not to take extreme ownership, right? So I'm like, oh no, that's my bad. Like I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna do this kind of thing. But at the same, at the same time, you like really aggressively took ownership. Like you're almost to the point where at, at first I was like, are you joking?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  But you weren't joking, you were serious. You were like, take, take the next turn right here. And then we'd come close to it. You'd be like, this turn right here. This turn right, like you, at all costs, you were not letting me, you know, make a mistake again. But, which is funny though, but it is a good example because not only, I mean, in your mind, you, you put forward the more important part. You were like, okay, I'm gonna take, it's like your actions said that it's your fault and, but you're, the solutions that, that you had, even though they're real extreme or whatever, like that was the part that you were implementing.

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't a jerk about it though, was I? No, no, no, just like, hey, all right. You know what? Here's the deal. Next turn is gonna be a point five miles. Here it's coming up on the right. All right, right hand turn right here.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is that's how, that's how we navigate in the der.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Oh bro, it's actually good. I mean.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  It's really squared away. When you're in a convoy of military vehicles.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:59Jocko Willink?

  It's awesome.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  And you know what's bad, really on my part is that at first I thought you were joking, like patronizing me, you know?

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I'm, don't do that.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  But that's really kind of my ego, you know, kind of as if to say like, duh, you said the next turn, this is the next turn. I can figure that out, you know, I'm smart enough to figure that out kind of thing. But if I'm like, okay, this is the system and you know, Jocko's gonna, you know, tell me and he's gonna be detailed about it and make absolutely sure we don't miss the turn kind of thing, then you're right. Dang, that's a good way to navigate, you know? But two people gotta be on board. But nonetheless, like dang, you had the solution, you know? So it goes back to it like it seems like back to this question. Um, your enemies could take advantage early on, right? As it's as the extreme ownership culture is trying to take hold, kind of is what I kind of get from it.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  Even early on.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  That's what I think.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  Even early on.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Okay, this is my fault.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. Even early on, you don't look like an idiot. You actually look squared away because you go, here are the problems that we're having. That I've identified. Here's what we're gonna do to fix them.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  No one knows where we're driving right now. You're kind of half driving and half paying attention. I'm over here talking or doing whatever. Guess what? We made a mistake. It's not gonna happen again. I got this. Hey, right turn coming up 500 meters. Right turn. Get in the left hand lane, prepare to go. You know what I mean? That's what that's what we solved the problem.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:22Jocko Willink?

  And and for to think in the beginning. You know, you get there and you say, hey, here's the problem. Here's what we're gonna do to fix it.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:30Jocko Willink?

  It's not, hey, everything's my fault. That's not extreme. Every extreme ownership isn't, hey, everything's my fault. Everything's my fault.

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  And now can you just leave me alone? No.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Especially not in that.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  You actually have to take ownership of the problems. I say that over and over again. But hey, you know what? Just like jujitsu, you gotta see a move a bunch of different times, a bunch of different ways.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  Bunch of different ways before you start to truly understand it.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dang, that's with everything.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever, do you ever hear yourself make an excuse?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  No, not anymore.

• 46:06Jocko Willink?

  Not anymore?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Like, I know, like, you know how like how you say, like, you can feel it kind of coming out. Right, you can see those excuses coming a mile away. And here's the thing, you have them in your head. Excuses complaining, um, uh, complaining about like how you feel. You know, like when there's something to be done. I'm not saying, you know, in every single case, but when there's something to be done, be like, I'm tired of doing this. Or I don't know, whatever. That was just a random example, but man, I can see that stuff coming a mile away.

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Now. It's definitely something that you get used to and you get good at.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  Right? You get good at. You get good at saying, you get good at not saying, well, you know.

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  One of my assistant platoon commanders.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:51Jocko Willink?

  Who's an awesome guy. And he had this thing, if he was gonna disagree with me. He would say. The word well. Meaning, you know, well, well, think about, but he had a funny way of saying it.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  He would say, whoa, like that.

• 47:09Jocko Willink?

  And, and so I'd say, hey, you know, how are you gonna do this? And he'd, you know, come up with his plan and, and I'd say. Hey, what about this on the plan? You, you might want to come in from the north instead of from the west. And he'd go, well. And then I'd say. After a while, I, that became a code word for. You're about to get choked.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  Whoa. But he was a toll, he's an awesome guy. Check. Whoa.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  Don't tell me your excuses.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Next question. Jaco. Have had discipline equals freedom audio on repeat since its release.

• 47:49Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  And I love it. Question. If our greatest strength is our greatest weakness, then how is discipline? Which is obviously your, your strength. Your greatest weakness.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  First of all. I don't even know what. I don't know if discipline would be my greatest strength. I don't know. I mean, I'm a disciplined person.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:10Jocko Willink?

  No doubt. But I think, I think that. I think that one of the things that people would find interesting. Is that.

• 48:22Jocko Willink?

  I'm not. Overly orderly.

• 48:27Jocko Willink?

  So if you think about those like psychological characteristics, one of them is extreme orderliness, which normally goes hand in hand with highly disciplined people. You know, those people that are.

• 48:40Jocko Willink?

  They're just ultra highly disciplined, but they have to have everything. They're OCD.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:48Jocko Willink?

  They're OCD orderly, right?

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  And I I'm not like that about a lot of things. I am about some things, but like it's pretty funny. Actually, my floor in my garage where I work out isn't is not clean, right? It's got salt stains on it from sweat.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Salt. Oh, yeah.

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  And it's dirty, right? And occasionally I'll get someone say, you should clean that floor. Or, hey, man, you should clean that floor, man. That's nasty. But it's totally functional, right? And my point is that I I don't I don't freak out about it. It's functional. It doesn't bother me at all that it's not perfectly orderly. This also means that I don't mind when things don't go as planned, right? So a lot of times you get people that are of a high end of disciplined.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:38Jocko Willink?

  They're too they're too far. They're not balanced. So now when things don't go the way that they're that they've planned things to go, they they they start to lose it a little bit. They can't deal with it. They want they want to have everything in order all the time. And I'll tell you, that's not the way life works. That's certainly not the way combat works. But that's not the way life works, and I don't really mind that. I don't mind chaos. So I would say probably if if you look at discipline as a strength, I don't think I think that would be generally considered the weaknesses of of being hyper disciplined is that you you can't stand when things are not in order.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:19Jocko Willink?

  You can't stand like I missed a workout. This is, you know, you freak out completely. Like, you know, okay, I don't like missing a workout, but I don't lose my mind over it.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, all that being said, I would say that I am a very much a creature of habit, and I do like to do the same things over and over again. I don't like to travel, even though I have to travel all the time. I don't like to. I'd rather stay home. I pretty much eat the same food all the time and go to the same three or four restaurants all the time.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  Right? I like to follow routine as much as I can. You know, it's even in jujitsu. I do the same basic movements all the time. I have the same, you know, I've talked about like a funnel. Like everywhere that you go with me, it's going to lead to where I want you to be. Cause I'm gonna use those same moves. I surf the same spots all the time. So I guess. I guess for me, the way that discipline is weakness or whatever for me is that I may, I think I'm, I could be fairly boring and predictable.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, for other people.

• 51:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Other people.

• 51:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Like, you know. People say, hey, you want to go try this thing? And I'm like, oh, no.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 51:33Jocko Willink?

  Not really.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  Don't really want to.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  I think you're right about that, though.

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Cause I'm just the same thing, even.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  Are you the same way?

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Exact same way, bro. Like, I, I, I'm not.

• 51:43Jocko Willink?

  Highly disciplined, Echo Charles.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not highly disciplined. I mean, but like the same stuff, like over and over again. The was funny, I go to.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  I don't even like new movies.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Oh dang, okay.

• 51:57Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, you know what?

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I haven't had time to watch movies for a long time.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  But, but when I used to watch movies, it'd be like, okay, I'm gonna watch Big Lebowski again.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well, I have that kind too, I think. But Big Lebowski is the kind of movie that, okay, so movies are different. I'm not going the whole thing about this, but there's, there's two types of different, two types of movies in this situation. There's movies that are like, oh, awesome, good storyline, maybe a great reveal at the end or twist or whatever. And it's like, good, good story. And then there's like the type of movie that's just a series of good parts where the story doesn't really matter that much. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's junk, but it's less about that. It's more about the, like, the good parts. It's like, oh, this part and this part. That's how the Big Lebowski is. Like, it's just a series of really good parts.

• 52:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's awesome.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. I think they're both awesome, but the, the ones that.

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  What was the other one?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  The, just the storyline's awesome.

• 52:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  You know, like, um. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but Big Lebowski is one of those, you know, like Napoleon Dynamite. Like, that's another one. It's just a bunch of good parts. Who cares about what happens at the end? In fact, you probably forget really, I mean, you remember what happens at the end. But as far as the storyline, you don't really care, but you'll watch it over and over because all the parts are funny or good or whatever. And then like Point Break, for example, I know we talked about that last time. Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a series of great parts, like serving more the skydiving part, the, you know, the, all the parts, they're just really fun. I mean, sure, the story is good. It's cool. It's fine. We'll say that, but that's not the point. The point is like, you know, anyway.

• 53:25Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Back to the point, though, is, oh, when we were talking about like being repetitive, like, like in the same thing we went over.

• 53:31Jocko Willink?

  Boring, being boring. I'm boring.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I, okay, so I'm like that, right? Where I eat a lot of sushi all the time and there's a sushi restaurant within walking distance of my house. Like, it's like, I drive, but I go there like, not as much, I'll probably go like maybe three times a week now, but there is a point where I was going five to six days a week, for real. And there'd be times where I'd go more than once in a day, yeah. So, of course, they just love me and, and my brother goes too. So, yeah, they just love me in there. Who's like, oh, again, again, we're just, you know, probably responsible for a significant portion of their revenue.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  My wife, she's not like that.

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, she likes the different, it's the same.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, she likes variety and whatever. And so

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  My wife will say, you know, let's say we're gonna go out for dinner. Let's try something different.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  I said, okay, tell me where.

• 54:22Jocko Willink?

  So we just go to Old Faithful's.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. See, at least you have a few, like, different spots. I have I have two and they're both sushi places. So it's like, and it goes for like what we do too during the weekend. It's like really repetitive. My wife uses the word Groundhog Day planning like a lot, too.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of great movies.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Another one, great parts, a bunch of great parts. But really, who cares at the end, you know, like the story, what's that, what's that movie really about that? What's the story about that movie? You don't know?

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I totally know. I've seen it a bunch of times.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  You gotta be nice to the girl so the ground all day stops?

• 54:57Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what the moral of the story is.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't even make sense, not good, but it's a good movie. Anyway, so that was the point I was making with the movie thing, but, um, but yeah, so there, my point is with this is that, yeah, you will be boring because my wife thinks I'm boring in that way. Where it's like, it's just the same old, same old every single time. I'm like, bro, I love the same old, same old. She's like, I wanna travel, I wanna go on to this all inclusive thing or whatever. It's just stay home. Like, this is like way better, you know, and yeah, so, yeah, I think you're right. I think that might be, but so if you think discipline isn't your biggest strength, what is, what do you think your biggest strength is?

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I don't know. I don't think I have any real big strengths.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  You know what I think it is? I think it's arguable, maybe discipline, yeah, maybe, maybe not, but you know what I think? Balance?

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  No, man, you're imbalanced.

• 55:44Jocko Willink?

  Nope.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  You're pretty balanced?

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  You know, I think it is, and you told it to me too.

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  You're durable.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, in terms of physical?

• 55:55Speaker 01

  I think even mental too, though. That's the thing, like you're, you're like a durable person. You know how like people, like you, you've told me stories, obviously when I'm going to them, but you told me stories about someone who made like huge mistakes, you know, with you and you like handle it and it doesn't seem like it like bothers you. You know, like that kind of stuff, stuff that like.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I do. Well, and you know, to me, I guess that's, that's balanced to me.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:19Jocko Willink?

  But to me, balance is, I don't, I don't, it's, it's, it's also boring. Right? Cause I don't go far in one direction or far in the other direction. I don't get extreme about this or extreme about that. I just, I, I think that's what has been good for me.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  Was I never freaked out about stuff much.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Much, yeah, some stuff.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, yeah, that makes sense.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  What's your biggest strength?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  My biggest strength?

• 56:54Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what I think your biggest strength is.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  What?

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  You're humble. You're super humble.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it helps.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Just the other day, you were telling me you were the most humble guy.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Person in the world, nobody's more humble than me. That was, that's a joke.

• 57:06Jocko Willink?

  No, I know.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  It was so funny, though.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is pretty funny.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  I forget who said that joke, but yeah. Yeah, maybe.

• 57:13Jocko Willink?

  I had, I had one of the most egotistical persons that I've ever known. Like, I am not kidding about this.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  Straight up, tell me, I have no ego. I mean, it was, it was like, it was completely insane.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  I couldn't believe that, that this individual was saying it. I was just thinking to myself, man, that's crazy.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Ego is, here's the thing, I don't know who you're talking about specifically, but um, I will say this, where obviously I wasn't, oh, I don't, and this may even go along with the idea that you think that I'm humble. It's like, I don't even know if, if I'm humble or not, because I know before I wasn't humble before at all. I thought the world like revolved around me. Not, not necessarily like-

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Not in a bad way, but just sort of, just, just how?

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of like if I had certain feelings, like they were just more important than what was kind of going on. And it wasn't like necessarily like, rrr, like walking, you know, like a dick or nothing like that. It was just, that's kind of how I felt or whatever. And um, it was, you know, complete immaturity, but at the same time,

• 58:23Speaker 01

  when you, when you kind of pointed out that humility is like a super important thing, I was like, okay, how can I, how can I, I mean, okay, I'm gonna assume that's true, because you know what you're talking about. So what does that even mean? And then what I realized is, a big like, a way to exemplify humility is to, to, I don't know, the, the, the ability to learn things from someone who might not necessarily be an expert, for example. You know how like- Think you can learn stuff from a kid.

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  You can learn stuff from a blue belt.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  You can learn stuff from a white belt.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that kind of stuff, but someone with the big ego will be like, hey, I'm a black belt.

• 58:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  What do you have to say to me? You know, you know, that concept, that idea.

• 59:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, interestingly, in Jiu Jitsu, you could take it to the extreme of where there was times where people thought you can't learn anything from wrestlers. You can't learn anything from Judo. You can't learn anything from Sambo. You know, that's, that's, that's crazy talk.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, and, and the good Jiu Jitsu players take it something from wrestling and take something from Judo, take a bunch from wrestling, a bunch from Judo, a bunch from Sambo. And then create their own stuff and watch on YouTube, somebody that does other stuff from a different academy.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:29Jocko Willink?

  A different school.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's almost like there's two different types of humility where you know how like someone who's really outwardly like, um, actually you had this example where like Conor McGregor, for example, where out like to, to hear him talk and stuff like that. You'd be like, oh, this guy has a huge ego or whatever. There's no humble, there's no humility with him, whatever. But like, he's learning all this stuff from like people.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  Learning all the time and training hard.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:54Jocko Willink?

  Because he knows he's, he's humble.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what is that? You know, like, is there two kinds of humbleness in your humility? I think there are kind of, and even if we were to look at it.

• 1:00:04Jocko Willink?

  There's some level of showmanship with Connor, right? There's some level of selling fights with Connor.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  But even at the same time, like, let's say that, because there's such thing as people, probably pretty common that people are legitimately like into themselves in that way.

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Coach Kavanaugh, we're gonna have Coach Kavanaugh on this podcast at some point.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because I've gone back and forth with him on social media.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that'd be awesome.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, but.

• 1:00:28Jocko Willink?

  But he could answer that question very well.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Or about, yeah, just in general or about Conor McGregor?

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  About Connor.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  About Connor. He knows Connor probably better than anybody.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  But you get people who are legitimately cocky outwardly, you know, kind of like, but, but at the same time, they can learn from, they have the humility to learn from everyone kind of thing.

• 1:00:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And you know what it is almost even? It might not even be necessarily specifically being able to learn from everyone. It's more about what you said a long time ago. It's, it's like admitting to yourself that you don't know everything.

• 1:01:01Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  And you don't necessarily know more than everyone at every single time. It's like you have to be humble enough to know that you don't know everything. So listen up kind of thing.

• 1:01:08Jocko Willink?

  That is the type of thing where even.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  So I will catch myself and I I used to catch myself doing that. Let's say w- once a day.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And then and then it was once a week and then it's once a month and and and and it's pretty it's less now. But sometimes I'll I'll catch myself listening to someone. And I'll catch myself thinking, oh, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. You know what I mean? And as soon as I hear myself say, wait a second, take a different perspective.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Because you what can you not not this guy doesn't know anything. It's what can you learn from this person? That's the question.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  What can you learn from him? You can learn something from him. Even if he's a white belt, even if he's inexperienced, even if he seems completely arrogant and crazy. Yeah. Even if you're learning how not to act.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Jocko Willink?

  That's better than just saying, oh, this person, oh, I'm not gonna listen to this person. I've got nothing to learn. No, you do. I do. So I it's interesting as we talked about how you make excuses, you personally make excuses less now. I personally make excuses. I might be a little ahead of you on that because I I figured that out maybe a little bit earlier and I'm older than you.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:02:19Jocko Willink?

  But it's, you know, I used to probably make excuses once, once a day.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Jocko Willink?

  And then once every three days and then once a week.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  And that comes in plenty, many forms to the whole making excuses because it doesn't necessarily only mean making excuses to others. It's like to yourself.

• 1:02:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. For sure. That's the primary.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  That's the primary. The easy one to overcome is making excuses to other people. The hard one to overcome is making excuses to yourself.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  I know, bro.

• 1:02:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the hard one to overcome because it hurts more.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Jocko Willink?

  Because the minute you say, well, you know, I didn't get the thing I wanted because of all these external forces.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Society.

• 1:03:01Jocko Willink?

  These external forces, the minute that you start saying that is the minute that you stop working hard for that thing. Yeah. Maneuvering for that thing or adjusting for that thing or getting up early and chasing that thing down.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  It becomes an excuse, so an excuse, it becomes an excuse, like meaning you just excused yourself.

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  You did.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  You just excused yourself from that workout. Um, yeah, but I would say back to the humility thing. And I don't know, I'm just listening to you at this point where maybe I am, because I've always had had at least a little bit of that. Where I'd be like, maybe this person right now, even though I hate what they're saying to me. What like they could be right. They could be right about me right now. And I think I always had that. I think that's why, you know, some people, they just. You talk to me, you know, or whatever, and you're like. The chance of this person changing how they are is very low.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, most people.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Most people, right?

• 1:03:55Jocko Willink?

  Most people try to change.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Kind of in my experience too, but. Yeah, something either really big or something really small has to happen over and over and over and over. Like it's in a different environment, right? But I would say legitimately, and I'm trying to look at it as like honestly as possible where. Me 10 years ago is like. Like if, let's say I know someone, I knew someone 10 years ago and I haven't seen them or heard from them or whatever in 10 years. And they like hung out with me for a week. They would be blown away. They'd be like, you're just way different. You're like a whole different person.

• 1:04:28Jocko Willink?

  That's the same with me. I mean. So, so this is funny. There's a bar in San Diego.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  That I used to go to when I was back in the teams and. Yes, and I was wild. I was wild.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Jocko Willink?

  And. There was a guy that was a DJ there.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't even know it. I didn't recognize it. I was usually not in a state to even be paying attention to those kind of things. Anyways, to make a long story short, I decided I was gonna put it in an officer package. And I put together the package and I went into the administrative office at SEAL Team One. And I talked to the chief that was in there. And I said, hey, how you doing, chief? You know, I'm putting in this package and I was just wanting you to take a look at it. You know, if there's anything you see I should add. And he looked at me, he goes, oh, you're putting in a package, huh? And I said, yeah. And he goes, that's, I wouldn't expect that from you.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Right, it's surprising.

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  And I was kind of, why not? He goes. He goes, you know, I'm the, I'm the DJ on. This bar. On, on these nights. And I've been that for, you know, five years. And I said, I was not aware of that. And, you know, in his mind. He was thinking, that's what he knew me as. He didn't really know me because he's in the admin office. He wouldn't really know me from anything else. And that was a little bit of a wake up call, but that, that, so my point is. I want to, I, I, I should not, I should never come off as a saint.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. Not at all. And even, you know, to this day, still working, still trying to figure things out. But, but definitely back in the day, I was an idiot. I had fun. I had fun, but I was, did a lot of dumb stuff.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're, I mean, and, and I, I believe you hundred percent where you were probably a certain way back then and whatever it fit, it was fun, it was all this or whatever. And but you legitimately changed a bunch or a big part of fundamentally who you are with being open to like critique and criticism and learning and whatever.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  And I think, yeah, I think the biggest thing is I, I had open eyes, you know what I mean? And as I moved into leadership position, I saw, I saw how other people perceived me and I saw the importance of leadership and yeah, I mean, you just, you just have to change. And that's something that as a leader, you, you see this all the time. What got you here isn't necessarily what's going to get you there, right? And so if you have leaders that if they, they were aggressive young cowboy when they were out in the field, that's great. But will you, you, you have to, you don't have to stop that, but you have to put some reins on it.

• 1:07:27Jocko Willink?

  You have to, you have to rein it in a little bit. The more senior you get, the more you become accountable to a board. The more you become accountable to, uh, being a publicly traded company. Those are things that are real. And the more you become accountable to the actions, if you're in the military still and what the way you're going to be seen, way, the way your unit is going to be seen and perceived by other senior leaders. Those are real things. And if you don't grow up. You don't make the progress that you need to make.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Jocko Willink?

  And I was lucky enough to to see that. You know, I had some great examples along the way, great leaders that I work for. But it can be hard to see that.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now that's a good like expression when you said I I win it. I opened my eyes or I went in with open eyes.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  I I don't even know how to describe it. But I just was aware of what was happening a little bit more than normal or a little bit enough to make the changes, I guess.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the hard part right there. And I think it is because of like I said, like your your ego. And it's hard for me to even really say that because like even when I say the word ego, it really like it it registers as like this external like, oh, the guy walking around with his chest out and I don't know, his mohawk, I don't know, whatever. It's like that. It's an external expression, but it's not. It's like

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  it's like being able to kind of shed the the blinders on self critique and so you know, when someone tells you, hey, like you're you're kind of acting this way, you're kind of this way. And to be able to be to figure to yourself that this person could be right first. And then be mad at the fact that they just insulted you second, of course, that's gonna be part of it. I understand. But most times for I think most people and me included sometimes where the fact that you stepped to me like that impacts me more than what you're actually saying. You know what I mean? But if you don't have the the ego in the way that you describe it, you'll you'll hear what they're saying first and then decide whether or not to be mad at it.

• 1:09:33Jocko Willink?

  You you know what else is weird too is like as I talk about this stuff, like like when I talk about detachment now, I used to I used to not know that word when I would tell guys to do it. This is even, you know, not that long ago, you know, but I was still in the teams. But it took me a while in the teams while I was trying to tell guys that. But I didn't figure out the words yet. You know what I mean? And that's just one example.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:02Jocko Willink?

  There's a bunch of examples like that where I was trying to convey them. I would convey the message. But I didn't just have like a concise way to do it or a clear way to do it. But I was still conveying the same message.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  And maybe and that's another thing that happens is as you get older and you get more experienced. You understand the message yourself better, just like when you teach jujitsu or you teach anything, the more you teach it, the better you understand it.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  And so as I taught things, I understood it better.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  And so that's one thing that I think helps out a lot. And this is why it's an example, an answer for me on so many different things with leadership. People say, well, what do I do with this young person that doesn't listen? Or what do I do with this person that isn't reaching their potential? I was like, well, put them in charge of stuff. Cause that's what, that's what I think helped me a lot was even in my first platoon. When I was the youngest guy and I was the most junior guy in my first platoon, I was the, I was the, the head radio man. Which meant I was responsible for stuff, which meant I sat through the briefs and I had to help with the planning. I had to do like stuff that was outside my realm of experience and I had to step up and do it. And it seems like a little thing right now, but I'll tell you what, when

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  you're 19 years old and you're in charge of the communications for some training exercise, and you don't know what the hell you're doing, you step up and figure that stuff out.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's very, very impactful. So that's what you do with your junior leaders that you want to have them step up and lead. You put them in charge of things. You put them. And I was very lucky that I had leaders that I worked for that did that. And I've talked about them before. I mean, I had leaders that, that put myself and the other junior guys in platoons in charge of things.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Jocko Willink?

  Not just, not just saying, but actually putting us in charge of things. And that, that's a quick way to grow a leader. So I was very lucky that I had that. And I think that was one of the things that helped me to see the light, right? Was being put in charge of things, even at a young, younger age.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  When do you think, like how you, how you just talked about detaching, right? Where you were trying to convey that message before you even called it detaching.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  When did you understand the importance of?

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  I've told the story before in here. So I was, I was doing oil rigs training and we came up on a platform out of an oil rig. They're, they're different platforms, they're different levels, I should say. And we came up on this one platform. I was, I think this was, this was in my

• 1:12:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to think if it was my first or second platoon. I'm pretty sure it was my second platoon. And as we came up on this, this level. It was, it was a little confusing and the whole platoon gets online and no one does anything. And I, I basically stood there for a second and then I kind of stepped back off the line a bit. And I looked around and I said, okay, I, I see what we should do. And I actually said, hold left, clear right, or whatever this little call was. And everyone did it. And the only reason I understood that was because I stepped back like a foot and looked around. And that's all you, that's, and, and I realized right then, oh, if I'm not staring down my gun, if I take a step back, if I look around, if I detach, I didn't use that word because I didn't know that word.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:13:08Jocko Willink?

  But I said, oh, if you just step back and you high port your gun and you look around, you're going to know way more than anybody else that's staring down their gun. And that right there changed my world. It really did. It changed my world. And at the time, I didn't think that changed my world. I just said, oh, cool. You know what? When, when people, yeah, when people are, are frozen, take a step back, look around and, and make a call. Okay, that's cool. That's what I started doing. I didn't think it was a big deal at the time. I didn't think it was a big deal until I was in instructor position. And I would see everyone staring down their gun and no one making a decision. And all I'd have to do is tell someone, hey, take a step back with me right here. One foot back off the firing line and look around and then go, okay, we can go to this berm right here and we'll be out. Okay. Yeah, that's right.

• 1:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Then I started to realize how important it was and I started to put, you know, words around it and put, put messaging around it that it was important. And there's, and every lesson that I talk about was all kind of learned in that method.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  All of it was kind of learned by being put in situations where I had to figure something out or something occurred or, or I've, and that's the same thing with my life. I got put in some situation, I said, okay, you know what? And what, what I think might be kind of key about that particular idea of detaching.

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  Is is when you can detach in life, right? It gives you this incredible ability to see yourself. And I think that if we go down to the core of of myself improving as a leader and continuing to try and improve as a leader. It's because if you can detach and see yourself, because that's the same exact thing like I I I mentioned this earlier. I said, you know, I kind of saw myself and saw how other guys were seeing me. Well, that you've got to detach from it. But in order to see how other people are seeing you, you've got to be able to detach a little bit and understand it. And so that ability to step back and see myself

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  from other people's to to see myself in situations and see how other people were interacting with me was very, very helpful. Now, this does not mean that I was able to just correct course overnight. And I don't want to make that, you know, anyone think that. And I did dumb stuff when I was a when I was assistant platoon commander. And I did dumb stuff when I was a platoon commander. And I did dumb stuff when I was a task unit commander. And I did dumb stuff when I was a training commander. And I do, I'm gonna do something dumb tomorrow. Watch me. But I think I will recognize it. Most of the time I'll look at it and say, hmm, you know what? That was dumb. And don't do that again, or here's how you can avoid it. And I think that's what will help people.

• 1:15:48Jocko Willink?

  If people can can adapt that little skill of stepping back off the off the line and taking a look around, taking a look at yourself. Look at how you're being perceived. What else is important is is how to actually think about how Echo is perceiving me, right? Because if I'm in my own head, I can't, I can never see how you're seeing me. But sometimes if you're acting, look, the first thing I do when someone's acting weird to me, or I don't understand why someone's acting a certain way is I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to do that. And if you you don't do that. You don't make real, you can't understand them. So if, if my boss is doing something crazy to me and all I do is get pissed at him for doing something crazy.

• 1:16:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's we've just created an antagonistic relationship and now things are going sideways and it's not good. If my boss is doing something crazy to me and I say, wait a second, why is he doing this? Let me think about what he's seeing. Oh, he's seeing Jocko, the caveman looking guy that wants to go out and he seems crazy and okay. I need to, I need to correct that. I need to correct that thing. I need to let him see that I'm thinking about the big picture and that I understand the strategy. Okay. Let me make those adjustments.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to he's stupid. He doesn't get it. Screw him. No. Detach. Check other people's perspectives.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  And that's a big key right there where you were like, you said, you know, the, the moment you kind of maybe realized the, the importance, the significance of detaching, right? The, the oil rig campaign and then.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't a campaign, it was a training op. So it's not that big of a deal.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  To me, that's a campaign. The, and then how you understood at whatever point that that applies to life. Cause, cause I, man, that's, I'd say those two things, understanding that you don't know everything. And being able to detach, which is borderline impossible, by the way, under most circumstances. Yeah. And as far as applying it to life, like, because like even in the military, it's like, that's a very specific environment. Military, like unlike most environments seemingly.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Like if you can, you know, like I was talking about, like, well, I don't know, going to the post office or going to the grocery store, dealing with my wife or something like that. But like, when you go deep enough, detaching is going to serve the exact same significance.

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  Good in all situations.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  You know, your, your wife comes home, you know, pissed because I don't know.

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Whatever, you know, how you said, the first reaction, what you feel like doing, which you, not you, but which one may typically do is react accordingly, according to how I feel about this, what you're saying to me. You shouldn't be saying this stuff to me. I didn't do anything to you. Why are you doing this to me? You know, they're only dishes or whatever.

• 1:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Escalate, escalate, escalate, escalate.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  That's what's happening. Yeah, that's not what you're thinking. You're just thinking, hey, this isn't fair. This is wrong what you're doing to me. So I'm going to, you know, express that or whatever. But that's because you're not detached. Like you just, and when you're able to do it, again, borderline impossible. But when you are

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  Do you find it borderline impossible? Have you made progress in that arena?

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  Hugely. No, here's, here's why I say borderline impossible. No, it's not. That's an expression. Like, it's, it's totally possible. It's borderline, I say it's borderline impossible because that's the last thing you feel like doing. Yeah. So if you operate in your life, which is natural, by the way, with how you feel, you know, like, I'm just going to express myself.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  You know what it's like? It's like this. Um, it, it, it's like you're doing something,

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  and you have to do something completely different. Yeah. Right? Just imagine that you're walking down the road, and now all of a sudden, you're walking down the road, maybe you're even jogging, you're jogging down the road. Now, all of a sudden, in a split second, you've got to, like, go read a book, like, right at that moment in time while you're running. It's like that radical of a change. Like, it's, it's something totally, that's what it feels like. When you detach from the current situation, you're in this, you're in this thing, you're in this thing, and you have to completely go and do something completely different. That's what it feel, it feels like that radical of a thing when you, when you really do it. Yeah. And when you do it right, like, when you're in a, in a, let's say, an argument with someone, heated

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  argument. Yeah. It feels like you're going from running a thousand miles an hour to, to, like, putting your face in the snow and reciting the alphabet backwards. Like, that's how, it's just totally different. Yeah. And so, that, you know, that's why, and people are going to ask, and they've asked us before, well, how do you detach? And the, well, the biggest thing I think you have to do is you have to figure out what your red flags are. What are the things that show you that you're too? Engulfed in the situation and then recognize those things and then go put your face in the snow and start reciting the alphabet backwards because that's what it feels like to detach.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  But if you think about the advantage that you have and, and I know you're a football player. I'm not, but you know, you can watch, everybody that's watching the football game on TV can see every mistake that's being made as it's happening and everyone else on the field is they're trying to, they can't compensate for them fast enough. They're in the game.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. They, and usually it's on the quarterback, by the way, when that guy was wide open, waiting for that guy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A hundred percent.

• 1:21:09Jocko Willink?

  So you have that advantage if you can do that.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you can manage to do that and like another cool thing about the situation is yeah, I say borderline impossible, but the more you can actually pull through and do it, the more you can do that, the easier it becomes. And when it becomes like habit and really all it is, and you can do weird like meta, which I'm kind of a fan of doing little metaphors with yourself, you know? So if it's like, you ever watched those movies?

• 1:21:34Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Where the movie's going on and then the, the person, the, what do you call them? The protagonist, like it's almost like he pauses the movie and everyone in the movie pauses except him and then he starts explaining.

• 1:21:48Jocko Willink?

  That is it.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  You, so it's like you do that to yourself though. So yourself is out and so you go boom, wife comes home pissed, you didn't, I don't know, clean up the dogs, whatever, or I don't know, whatever. You didn't mow the lawn. How about that? She's pissed, right? You can easily mow the lawn tonight. You can easily mow the lawn tomorrow, whenever, right? But she's pissed, right? You don't think so. So what you do is right when you feel yourself or right when you get her yelling at you, boom, pause the movie. What do we have here? What do we have here? We have myself, we have wife, she's mad at something. Doesn't make sense. What would make, you know, it's like, and then you just detach at that point.

• 1:22:23Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter that doesn't make sense. Yeah. How are we going to solve the problem?

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  You can easily make sense of it though. Like you know how you said like the football game, when you, if you can pause the movie at that, at that point, step back, you will easily make sense of it.

• 1:22:35Jocko Willink?

  Cause you'll be like, oh, guess what? My wife, I haven't been home for four days.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Jocko Willink?

  I left a bunch of laundry out.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:44Jocko Willink?

  The baby was, diaper was dirty and I forgot to throw it away. I'm, I'm, okay, I see where she's not mad about the lawn specifically, there's a bunch of things I did wrong. And so you say, hey, you know what? I totally should have mowed the lawn and by the way, the diapers, that was, that was completely out of hand. You know what I mean? And, and you diffuse and you de-escalate the situation, you're detached and that's how you, that's how you roll.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  That's how you, you make it through it.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  And here's a little side tip on that situation, the lawn, the diapers or whatever. It's not that, that the grass is long and she wants it short and the fact that it's long is making her mad. That's not the situation. The situation is she said something, she thought that that meant something, that she said something. She thought it meant something to you. When it came time to prove whether or not that meant something to you, you proved it didn't. That's what you're dealing, that's what you guys are dealing with and that's easy to figure out when you, when you detach.

• 1:23:39Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to figure out.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  That's what I've figured out.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's hard to figure out when you're in the heat of the moment.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're in the game, it's hard to see who's open and who's not some of the time, most of the time.

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  All of the time, in my case. All right, next question.

• 1:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Next question. I think this question is a good, a good lead. That last answer was a good lead into this next question.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. How do you think young Jocko would have performed under Commander Willink? Oh, young Jocko under old Jocko.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you see that reaction that you just had?

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Is what I expected because it seems like it should be like a really interesting question with like a really interesting answer, but it actually isn't that interesting to be, to be quite honest with you. If young Jocko was working for old Jocko, it would have been good to go. I would have liked me as a young guy and as a young guy, I would have liked me as a boss. I was a young, hard worker with a good attitude and sometimes I got a little bit wild as I, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, but I could have been tightened up by the right leader and I wasn't like.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't, I wasn't.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  Um, it wasn't ever interfering with work and.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Oh, you're wild.

• 1:24:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my wild, my wildness, you know, we were getting wild. We were young, young guys with a fistful of money and just being young guys in the dirt. So we were just getting after it. And, you know, guys, but, but we weren't like causing major trouble, right? We weren't getting arrested much.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Jocko Willink?

  We weren't getting in fights all the time. You know, we were causing some problems, but it was nothing major. So we'd have been tightened up and we got tightened up sometimes, but it would have been no factor. And

• 1:25:23Jocko Willink?

  as a young guy, um, you know, I, I think I would have, I would have liked working for me because I would, I would have looked at myself and been like, oh, that guy's fired up. He wants to get after it and that would have been cool with me. So, so again, I don't think it's, I don't think it's like, uh, uh, it sounds like a really interesting question, but it's not really that interesting. And the cool thing is there's a lot of young team guys that are like, I was, when I was a young team guy.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  And so I was like, I always looked at all young team guys like, oh yeah, I remember when I was like that. Good for him.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  Hey, good for him. He's fired up.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Would there be any issues though? You know, like what, as young Jocko, who do you think? Or not who, but what do you think would be your major struggle? You know? Any even?

• 1:26:09Jocko Willink?

  With my Jocko, the boss?

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  Nah, no, we would have been cool.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 1:26:15Jocko Willink?

  We would have been cool.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and the fact of the matter is, I mean, like 95% of the young buck team guys that worked for me.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  I love those guys.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, they were awesome and no issues.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're, you were like, you're essentially on the path then really, you know, with some loose ends for sure.

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, from loose ends for sure. Yeah, I was on the path.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and you know, my, my, the guys that I got, went to Bud's with that showed up at Shield Team One back in the day. Old Jocko would have loved all those guys. They're all fired up. I was nothing spe- I don't, I'm not trying to say I was special because I wasn't. There's guys that were way better than me. And you know, that's to go back to your question earlier, when I described myself like as my good quality being durable. The reason I say that is because like there's guys that were better at me than that just about everything. Like faster than me, stronger than me, better shots than me, whatever. I was pretty durable though. Like I was pretty, I was good at being average at a lot of different things. I was a strong average in a lot of different things, which is good. And I was durable. Like I could, I could take some abuse, mental and physical abuse, which is, which is a cool quality to have, you know?

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so. You're like a tank that just can't, you know?

• 1:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And again, I'm not trying to say I'm no Superman, but I'm durable.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  You know, that, that makes sense.

• 1:27:32Jocko Willink?

  You know the, you know, like the, the Toyota Hilux, do you know what Toyota Hilux is?

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:37Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's a Toyota truck. They have them overseas. They're diesel. And they're really, really durable. Really, there's a, there's a show from England. My wife's from England. There's a show in England. It's called Top Gear. My son watches the show Top Gear. They tried to destroy a Toyota Hilux. They were doing like just crazy things to it. It's a really durable. It's not the fastest. It's not the strongest. You know, but it's durable. Durable is a good quality to have.

• 1:28:09Jocko Willink?

  I got asked the other day, you know, someone's like, you should do Olympic lifting. I'm like, bro, I'm not even in the ballpark to, you know, compete with Olympic. Yeah. I mean, just crazy talk. Crazy talk. I'm sorry.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's anything, man. You start competing, you better.

• 1:28:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy talk. Check. So yeah, young, young, young Buck Jocko. He would have had a good time and old Jocko. Like I said, man, there's, there's a ton of young team guys that are fired up. I was, I was out with some young team, I was out with some team guys. And there were some young, young team guys there and some of these young team guys were fired up.

• 1:28:48Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. I'm like, yeah, you know what? You know, people say like, oh millennials and this, and then we, you know, America's getting weak. I'm like, I'm going to go hang out with some of those guys. They're 20 years old. I'm like, you know what? We're good to go.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:00Jocko Willink?

  We're good to go. We got some guys that are beasts.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Solid.

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, beyond solid. Freaking awesome.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, my two friends that are in the, Jeremy Cake nuts, think, talking to them now, like the maturity level is just. Really like really impressive maturity level, especially for both them. But at the same time, thinking back on them and how they kind of, when they started, when they're like, yeah, we're going to the SEAL teams, all this stuff. Considering that and then considering where they are now, it makes it seems the same to me where older them wouldn't have a problem really with younger them. It's like they were on the path.

• 1:29:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, they were on the path for sure. Those are the kind of guys I'm talking about. Like those guys, I would love to have those guys working for me when I was a when I was a commander and I would love to have those guys as my chief when I was a young guy. Yeah, no, no factor.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:52Jocko Willink?

  So like I said, I think people thought that sounded like an interesting question, but it actually wasn't, unfortunately.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Like you're committing all these violations.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Like I was just all crazy. I was did some crazy stuff.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  What about socially though? Not socially, but what do you say like in like outside of the military, you know?

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, bro. I mean, I was a young kid.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but.

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  And as an older guy, you look at the young kids and you go, yeah, you know, he's young.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  He's getting after it. God bless him. Let's rock and roll. I gotta let me keep him out of trouble.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:20Jocko Willink?

  That's all good. All good.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  I think I might have some problems with myself. With young Echo.

• 1:30:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, cause young Echo wasn't on the path yet.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  No, I don't know. Yeah, there was no path. I didn't even see a path, really.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe. All right, next question.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  What advice would Jocko give his seventeen year old self regarding school, social relationships, parents, peer pressure, et cetera? Yeah.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  This is like the actual Jocko podcast tonight is like all these questions are about Jocko.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Actually, that's kind of what I was asking, like outside of the military.

• 1:30:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, if I was going to tell myself something, here's a couple of things that, you know, I would tell myself to detach. I'll tell myself to learn that. I would tell myself that that girl isn't the whole world.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  And those friends aren't the last friends you're ever gonna have. And the party isn't gonna be the best party of all time. And all those things that you think, this is what we talked about earlier, all those things that you think are a huge deal when you're young, they're not a big deal. And I know that's kind of messed up, but it's true, man. It's true. The things that you think are a big deal when you're seventeen years old are not that big of a deal. And it's really hard to convince someone that's seventeen years old of that.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:38Jocko Willink?

  They also, also what they don't recognize is things that are a big deal. They don't recognize, they think they're a little deal.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:46Jocko Willink?

  So they, they're doing stupid things, right?

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  Whether it's drinking and driving, whether, I mean, kids still drink and drive now. Like, yeah, how dumb is that?

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, seems crazy.

• 1:31:57Jocko Willink?

  And just so people don't think, you know, nowadays, we've talked about social media already too, but people post stuff on social media and you go, man, what is wrong with you?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  And I guess, you know, I've heard now, and you know, we work with a lot of different companies, when you apply for a job, they go and look at your social media and see what kind of an idiot you might be.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Good, that's a good move, by the way.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's a great move. It's a great move. So, um, yeah, just, just recognize that some of the little things are actually big and some of the big things are actually little and I'd square those things away. And the, I've said this before, when you're young, you've got to realize that how you act now is directly related to your future success, to your future happiness, to your future financial situation, to everything. So, so it's hard to make that connection, right?

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, impossible.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Might be impossible. Some kids get it though. I'm telling you, some kids get it.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  I think they're just.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  No, some kids get it. Some of my oldest daughter's friends, they get it. Like they're on track. They're on track. They're, they're, they're like, hey, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. They're, they're on track. They're 16 years old. They're studying for the SATs, they're taking the AP classes. My daughter included, like they're on track to make stuff happen.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I think, and I'm not saying this is the case, but this is probably the case in one way or another. I could be wrong, I understand. But, okay, so, and we talked about this before, you know, that part of your brain that understands all that that you're talking about?

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's not even developed.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Not developed. So this, you know, and this is from what I understand, how you kind of influence people, you just put them on a routine. Kind of like, okay, so is the difference between understanding like what I'm doing now and having a tangible.

• 1:33:42Jocko Willink?

  No, I I know where you're going with this. And you're you I I believe that there are definitely some kids like that that are just they're just like, hey, okay, I'm supposed to get good grades.

• 1:33:52Jocko Willink?

  They're on that track. I know for a fact, kids that are like, no, I am going to do this, this, this, and it's gonna lead me here.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Actually, you know what? You're right. Cause this guy Blake, you know, remember Blake I used to do videos for?

• 1:34:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Um, so he, we did like a thing where it was, I think it was like a Q and A or some something like that. And he was, he was talking about that where in elementary school, he remembers feeling like if if I don't have perfect attendance and have perfect straight A's, I won't pass this, not pass, but I won't like be the the perfect guy or whatever. And he said that he would, um, he would like create like this track to his whole future and his life would be ruined. That's how he felt. I was like, whoa, so I'm living life literally minute to minute in third grade. It would be like, the reason I wanted to do my homework and get good grades is so I wouldn't get in trouble straight up. It was not to get into college. It wasn't none of that stuff.

• 1:34:47Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  That's the way most kids are. In my opinion, most kids are, hey, I don't want to get in trouble. Some immediate repercussions, myself included.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:56Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I gotta pass this so I can go to the next grade.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, or I don't want to be the guy in class who didn't do his homework, you know, kind of thing. But yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I guess so. That's that's me trying to, I gotta step outside of myself on that one.

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  And I guess the final thing, obviously, I tell myself discipline equals freedom, which is basically what we're saying.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  So get this one in how you live your life.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that and that, I I think the biggest one there is to to, whether they totally understand it or not, say like what you're doing right, right now is.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  The important things in life, the things that you think are important are not important. And then things that aren't, that you think are not important are important. So it's kind of like a iceberg, you know how the old, you know, the

• 1:35:47Jocko Willink?

  People are gonna go nuts over that little statement. You know why? Cause people really like the way you say important. You just said it eight times.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be a flurry of glory and rainbows, emojis.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Alright, well, hey.

• 1:36:00Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I agree with you.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  So like the iceberg thing, you know, you know, the iceberg metaphor where it's like people only see the top of the iceberg. But below that is like this huge iceberg. So that's what, that's what important things are in life, right? So you think it's just this little, small little iceberg, but when you think of the whole scope of life, which you have no access to, by the way, as a kid. It's that whole iceberg, you know? So if you're not focusing on that important part of the iceberg, well, I guess in an iceberg situation is not that important. But think of another metaphor, but.

• 1:36:29Jocko Willink?

  It'll sink your ship.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, like in that kind of situation. But, and then at the same time, the things that aren't really important, meaning they don't have an iceberg under there. They're just little floaty things. You think that's so important, that thing's gonna melt or get crushed or whatever, you know?

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Not gonna sink you.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  No, it's not gonna sink you, it's just gonna kind of, it's fleeting.

• 1:36:49Jocko Willink?

  Check. A, uh, one thing before we closed out tonight, cause I think that's good for questions. I want to hit a couple of quick, Tim Ferriss's new book, I want to hit a couple of quick things from it. Tribe of Mentors is what it's called. And, um, there's a lot of good info in it. And it's written in really short little sections, if you didn't know this yet. I mean, you can read them in like five or 10 minutes. And what he did in this book is he took and asked the same, I think it's 10 or 11 questions to all these different, I would say random, but they're not random, because they're all kind of

• 1:37:26Jocko Willink?

  successful in whatever realm they're gonna be successful in. Cause I guess successful is a very open term, right? Whatever realm they're in, they're successful, there's all kinds of people in here. And I just, I read like the first couple 150 pages or so, and I just wanted to do, pull out a couple of the. Couple of ones that I thought were pretty cool.

• 1:37:51Jocko Willink?

  That I thought people could take a little something away from. And I was like, Tim, can I read a couple of these things? He's like, yeah, go ahead. Whatever.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully he doesn't sue me. Uh, anyways. So here we go. The first one is. A little section. From some excerpts and I'm not reading the whole. Like everything in each person's section, but just some of the highlights. Steven Pressfield.

• 1:38:20Jocko Willink?

  The guy's an author, he's in the Marine Corps. You know who Steven Pressfield is? Yeah, he wrote The Art of War. He wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance. That's a movie.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  The War of Art.

• 1:38:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sorry. He wrote The War of Art. Yeah, which is obviously a play on words for, for the art of war. And the war of art is like how to be creative and how to overcome those things and overcome the resistance and all that. And Joe Rogan actually told me he used to have a stack of those books and you just give them to people that came to meet him.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I read it. Joe Rogan.

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there you go. And he also wrote Gates of Fire. Which is a freaking awesome book, actually. And it's about the Spartans. The Battle of Thermopylae. And they actually teach Gates of Fire. Like at. The Basic School for the Marine Corps and at the Naval Academy. At least I've heard that they've teach it. So that's pretty, that's pretty awesome. Anyways.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  Here's a question for Steven Pressfield. The question is, what advice would you give to a smart, driven college student about to enter the real world? What advice should they ignore? Here's what he said. I'm probably hopelessly out of date, but my advice is get real world experience. Be a cowboy. Drive a truck. Join the Marine Corps. Get out of the hyper competitive life hack frame of mind. I'm 74, believe me, you've got all the time in the world. You've got 10 lifetimes ahead of you. Don't worry about your friends beating you or getting somewhere ahead of you. Get out and get into the real dirt world and start failing. Why do I say that? Because the goal is to connect with your own self, your own soul.

• 1:40:00Jocko Willink?

  Adversity. Everybody spends their life trying to avoid it. Me too. But the best things that ever happened to me came during the times when the shit hit the fan and I had nothing and nobody to help me. Who are you really? What do you really want? Get out there and fail and find out.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  It's funny, I was talking to Jade last night, literally last night, he told me the same thing.

• 1:40:31Jocko Willink?

  Get out there and fail? What, what part?

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  That, that thing, it's like, you know.

• 1:40:36Jocko Willink?

  Live?

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  So me, when I step outside of my comfort zone, I take one tiny step. And here's the thing.

• 1:40:42Jocko Willink?

  He told you to jump?

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  He told me to, yeah, like, take a bigger jump, kind of thing. He didn't tell me to do it, he just recommended it. Cause what, you know, my whole, and this is probably half justification, by the way. I have a comfort zone. I'll take one tiny step. And then I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll take the, you know, when you step outside, you get burned or whatever, you get, you know, the whatever, and then you grow from it. That's what, what happens. That's the whole idea, right? So I take a tiny step, then I take the tiny hit, and then I get the tiny growth. But I try to do it all the time, all the time, all the time, but it's still safe, man. It's still safe. Cause that's just like one pinky outside the comfort zone. That's what he was saying. He was like, you, like, you gotta step outside, cause just the fact that you can endure a big fail. You know, he's saying, go out there and fail, right?

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  So if you can endure like a big fail, or two big fails, or major fails, now you have the ability to endure major failure, you know, that kind of thing. That's, that was his whole thing. It's like, yeah, that makes sense. I didn't tell him that at the time. I was just like, no, man, I'm doing it perfectly.

• 1:41:46Jocko Willink?

  Check. Uh, next question for Steven Pressfield. When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do?

• 1:41:57Jocko Willink?

  And here's his answer. I have a friend at the gym who knew Jack LaLanne. Google him if the name is unfamiliar. Jack used to say, it's okay to take a day off from working out. But on that day, you're not allowed to eat.

• 1:42:12Jocko Willink?

  That's the short way of saying you're not really allowed to get unfocused. Take a vacation, gather yourself, but know that the only reason you're here on this planet is to follow your star and do what the muse tells you. It's amazing how a good day's work will get you right back to feeling like yourself. That's good info right there. When I realize this.

• 1:42:41Jocko Willink?

  It's so easy to go down the downward spiral of eat bad food. Feel bad, not get good workouts, sleep late, sleep like crap.

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  And, and then what do you do when you feel like crap?

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  You want to feel better as soon as possible. So you do some immediate gratification.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  Right. You, you go, oh, you know what? I don't feel like working out, so I'm not going to work out.

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  And then you say, you know what? I don't feel good. And the reason you don't feel good is because you didn't work out. And so now what you do is you're like, well, you know what's going to make me feel better? A donut.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  And a beer.

• 1:43:20Jocko Willink?

  And a beer. And so you get the donut and the beer. And then now you really don't feel like working out. So that's the downward spiral.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:43:28Jocko Willink?

  Break the spiral. Break it. Break. What'd you call him that the other day when Jordan Peterson was on? Break the loop. Right? So it's the same thing. You gotta break the loop. And that's what he's talking about. When you're feeling like crap, get after it. That's, that's what, that's how I translate it. And it makes you feel better. And it gets you right back on the path.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  And that's why actually fasting is a good thing.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Jocko Willink?

  Fasting is a good way to get yourself re, reacquainted with the path real quick. If you fill your body with a bunch of junk.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  It makes you not want to perform. It makes you not want to work out. It makes you not want to work.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Jocko Willink?

  When you're clean, you feel good. So hit a fast 24 hours. You know, yeah, rock and roll.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:14Jocko Willink?

  And I like that. You want to take a day off? That's cool. No eating. How legit is that? It's real legit. It's real legit. Cause now, guess what? At lunchtime, you're like, man, I just want to eat something cool. Go bang all the workout and then you can get your grub on.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:44:31Jocko Willink?

  Or you can just work out and still not eat.

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  All right, getting into the next cat here. This guy's name is Jersey Gregorik. And this guy emigrated from Poland to the United States as a political refugee with his wife in 1986. And he won, subsequently won four world weightlifting championships and established one world record. Founded the UCLA weightlifting team and by the way, this guy's been on, this guy's been on Tim's podcast as well, this guy Jersey. Also writer, write poem, wrote poems and had award-winning poems, but this is kind of a cool little statement that he wrote in here.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  He kind of goes on a little bit of a tangent, this isn't related to the question, but I'm going to jump into it. He says, "Five years ago, I decided to eliminate my reactive behavior to irritations. But at first, none of my tricks worked. I placed philosophical and inspirational quotes on my iPhone wallpaper and wrote in my journal, but the proverbs always lost their effectiveness over time. Then one day, I told one of my clients who blamed her husband for everything to take 100% responsibility for her part in the interactions. This way, I said, you will be free of trying to control him and you will be able to find constructive solutions in your relationship. When she left, I realized that the same advice could help me as well.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  Taking 100% personal responsibility would help me to stop blaming or complaining and achieve a sense of flow. It would also give me the clarity in any conversation to locate the right words to help a person accept a hard choice." So he's talking about extreme ownership. And, and we talk about that, we're in, taking, taking extreme ownership in a relationship with another human being. Don't blame them, figure out how you're going to solve the problem yourself. You know what this reminded me of was when Captain Plum was on and he was, had a cellmate? And what they, do you remember Captain Plum? And we touched on it, but... He was saying that if their cellmate was annoying them, because believe, you know, they're, they're living with one other, two other, or three other people for months on

• 1:46:50Jocko Willink?

  end in a little freaking Hanoi Hilton cell.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:46:54Jocko Willink?

  And he said, if that person, because you can imagine how you get on each other's nerves, and they all took the attitude, and if they allowed themselves, if, if Echo was getting on my nerves, it wasn't Echo's fault, it was my fault.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  My fault.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Jocko Willink?

  And that's what he's talking about here. And then you can actually fix it. That the next question that Jersey answered is this one, if you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say? And why? And here we go, here's what his answer was. Hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. Nothing truly meaningful or lasting has ever been created in a short period of time. If you learn the story behind any great success, you realize how many years went by and how many hard choices were made to achieve it. Reaching for more is not only an act of ambition, it also becomes, it also comes from passion and love.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Nothing is achieved because of easy choices. I believe that people can endure any hardship if it is sensible and constructive. Hard choices means never retiring because the brain has to be engaged in finding new solutions in the moment, not just remembering old formulas. Hard choices make us wiser, smarter, stronger, and wealthier, and easy choices reverse our progress. Focusing our energies on comfort or entertainment. In every difficult moment, ask yourself, what is a hard choice and what is an easy choice? And you will know instantly what is right.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  Does that even need commentary? Not really.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  That's a great thing to think about.

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:50Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom. Discipline is hard, man.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know how you said like pay now or pay later kind of thing, you know? Like if you want to pay later, or if you want to, a lot of people, they try to pay later, you know?

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I heard one the other day. You can either suffer the pain of discipline or the pain of regret.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  Right, right. Same thing.

• 1:49:10Jocko Willink?

  Same thing.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Same, exactly.

• 1:49:11Jocko Willink?

  People saying the same thing must mean something.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:14Jocko Willink?

  It must mean something. Pay attention to it.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  All right. Moving to the next section here, page 127 from Tribe of Mentors.

• 1:49:29Jocko Willink?

  Amelia Boone. And she wakes up at like three o'clock in the morning.

• 1:49:38Jocko Willink?

  She's legit. And she's four time world champion in the sport of obstacle course racing. I met her a couple of times. You met her too.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. She's a beast. And what's cool about her is she beats, like she did the 2012 World's Toughest Mudder Competition. It's 24 hours, 90 miles, 300 obstacles. She finished second overall out of more than a thousand competitors, including 80% of which are male. Second overall. Did I say something about being durable earlier?

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  That's durable. So Amelia, awesome. Human. And

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  the last one we'll do here, but she, she got asked, you know, same question. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would you say and why? And Amelia says, no one owes you anything.

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  We live in a world that's rampant with entitlement with many people believing that they deserve to be given more. My parents raised me to be self-sufficient and impressed upon me that the only person you can really depend on in life is you. If you want something, you work for it. You don't expect it to be given. If others help you along the way, that's fantastic, but it's not a given. I believe that the key to self-sufficiency is breaking free of the mindset that someone, somewhere owes you something or will come to your rescue.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  No one owes you anything. No one's coming to your rescue. It's on you, obviously. I couldn't agree more. And it's funny because as she said, I mean, we, we know the importance of a team.

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  And you always hear people say, you know, you can't do it by yourself and I'm not here. I'm here because of so many different people. And that's true. But that doesn't mean that you can sit around and rely on other people to save you or to do the heavy lifting or even to help you out in either way. Help from other people is a luxury. It's a luxury that you shouldn't count on. So step up and own it and make it happen because no one owes you anything. That book is Tribe of Mentors, Timothy Ferris. He's got Timothy, not Tim anymore.

• 1:52:28Jocko Willink?

  Timothy Ferris. Short life advice from the best in the world. All right. Speaking of helping people. Echo Charles. Maybe you can help people.

• 1:52:44Jocko Willink?

  Learn how to support themselves.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:47Jocko Willink?

  And maybe if they want to also simultaneously support this podcast if they want to.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  That, that, that would be fantastic, but we're not relying on it. Is that kind of the theme?

• 1:52:58Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm hoping if not, hey, I got this. I'll run with it.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, sure. Of course.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  Sure. You want me to run with it? Cause I'll, I'll be done with it in like four minutes.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  What's interesting is that kind of depend on you and rely on you to kind of help bail me out this podcast. Otherwise they'd just be kind of talking to myself.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Okay. Check.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Actually, I wouldn't be talking because I typically talk after you talk like in reaction to you.

• 1:53:23Jocko Willink?

  So if it was the echo podcast, it would just be silence.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. It wouldn't even be good evening because you say good evening, you know?

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  Ah.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  No podcast.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  It's all good. So yeah, support yourself, right? All right. We'll talk about krill oil. Jocko is krill oil. Jocko super krill oil, super.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  Super krill.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also Jocko joint warfare, glucose, being conjoined and this is all for your joints. The best type of supplement in my opinion.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  You know, when, have you been into other supplements?

• 1:53:58Jocko Willink?

  Not, not in a long time.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've, I have like in my younger days where I'll take like, I don't know, protein powder or like this thing. It does this, you know? I can say with full on honesty that when I'd stop taking it, there wasn't that much of a difference.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  But what happens when you stop taking joint warfare?

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  That's the thing. Yeah. So there is a difference and especially, I mean, I don't know, I'm,

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  I'm whatever age I am now. You don't have to go into that part, but so I don't know, I don't know how it is to take krill oil. When I was like in my twenties, so I don't know.

• 1:54:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  You know, kind of thing, but I know now and I'll tell you this, and I have gotten off it for like a, it was like maybe a week, little, little bit more than a week. And yeah, they could, they came back, man.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  The joint situations.

• 1:54:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know what I think? You know what I think the krill oil and the joint warfare do? Make you durable.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:56Jocko Willink?

  You durable. I believe they contribute greatly to my durability.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's and it's actually saying a lot for me, because and for you too, big time, because you're you're not like a small guy. You're not a small person. And let's face it, we're older than we were before.

• 1:55:12Jocko Willink?

  That is a true statement.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  No matter what.

• 1:55:14Jocko Willink?

  We were before.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  And you, you, we, you actually more so than me, you do like hard stuff.

• 1:55:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Like lifting, jujitsu, like hard stuff.

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Check.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Harder than the normal person.

• 1:55:29Jocko Willink?

  Maybe. Some people. Not Amelia Boom.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:32Jocko Willink?

  She's out doing ninety, three hundred obstacle courses.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:36Jocko Willink?

  Three hundred obstacles on ninety miles. I'll send her some.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, see what up. If she's not already on it.

• 1:55:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Or something like it. Nonetheless, the joint situation is like that's saying a lot. If if you can do the stuff that you do and I just kind of doing some introspection, kind of detaching, whatever, I'm looking at the stuff that I do, it's like, man, it helps a lot. I don't think I'd be able to go as hard.

• 1:56:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, you definitely wouldn't.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Like just daily.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  My shoulder healed.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, my elbow.

• 1:56:06Jocko Willink?

  Straight up.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Both of them. Yeah.

• 1:56:08Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  And my knees, bro, I put abuse on my knees with with like working out and jujitsu because they're kind of loose. Skinny.

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  And skinny.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  I thought you would have said there. But um, like, they're super loose, where when I blew out my knee in college, the doctor, when he, you know, they do the tests, they're like, okay, before they do the MRI, they do the tests, all these tests, they just kind of wiggle them and do all this stuff from different positions, and they wiggled both of them. And they were like, bro, your knees are loose, like this, just genetic.

• 1:56:38Jocko Willink?

  Doctors tell you that they were skinny too.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  Anyway, they were loose and then You said you had skinny knees. I do and skinny ankles. Get up right now. Anyway, I, um, then I hurt my knee when I was rolling with Greg and I went to uh, the doctor who performed the surgery on my bicep and he did, he was like, oh yeah, you have a blown ACL. And I was like, whoa, I only have, I hurt the outside of my knee or the inside of my knee. Not the outside or not my, I didn't blow out my knees. Like, no, you blew out your knee. I was like, dang. I was like, oh, but, but he didn't run any comprehensive tests. He just did it real quick, like wiggled it. And then I was like, whoa, my doctor in college said I have really loose knees. So check this one. And there's, he had like another person there and he goes, um, and he checks the other and he was like, whoa, whoa.

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  But the difference is when you wiggle a no ACL knee, it doesn't like abruptly stop, even if it's loose. See what I'm saying? So like, if you have no ACL, it's like, it's like a blunt, like, it's like if you had a, a big cord in there, like a real, like a tension cord or something that didn't, didn't stretch at all. And mine are just a little bit longer. You see what I'm saying? So I have loose knees. Nonetheless, so the point is, I know, long explanation, I understand.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  When I roll jujitsu, they'll pop out sometimes. Loose ends. And then if, if they pop out and then I like kick or straighten out real quick or whatever, it'll pop out and you know how your, your bones, they're just kind of shaped like this. They'll do this and then they'll get like caught on each other. And when they get caught on each other and you press, it'll like mess up the cartilage. Yeah. So they'll, they'll get swollen on the inside. At the end of the day, they get swollen for like some days. So I gotta like warm them up or whatever. But yeah, I take, I just take the krill oil. I don't, I just ignore the swelling. No factor. And I'm pretty flexible too. Check. Nonetheless, anyway, you want to support yourself. There you go. Jocko super krill oil and joint warfare. Boom. Physical support on your supportive structures.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Also, if you're into jujitsu, Origin has a new key.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  What is it? Your signature gi? Is that what you call it?

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  I don't know about all that.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:52Jocko Willink?

  It's just a gi that says cool stuff on it.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom. Get after it.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I guess technically as far as what a signature something would be. Yeah, that's the Jocko gi. It's not called the Jocko gi.

• 1:59:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, no, we wouldn't be having it. I guess we have Jocko podcast.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's just for a lack of a better name, really.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  This one, yeah, no. Well, anyway, they got the gi, the death gi.

• 1:59:14Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Discipline equals freedom. Gi. It's a good one. Kind of lighter weight. It's, um, Pete told, geez, Pete said the, the weave.

• 1:59:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's athletic weave. It's a real weave.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:27Jocko Willink?

  It's not just taking cotton, which is what, which is what they just make pants from 1908 from.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:35Jocko Willink?

  No, it's an athletic. And when you put it in the dryer or you put it in the washing machine, when you get done, it's almost dry. It's got cotton in it, but it's also got a poly blend.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the good stuff. And it's all made here in America from the seed of the cotton. The very seed that you plant the seed. I wonder where they get the seeds from.

• 1:59:53Jocko Willink?

  South Carolina, I think.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:55Jocko Willink?

  It's either Tennessee or South Carolina.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  I forget which one. We'll find out.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Even buying the seeds or, or acquiring the seeds in whatever capacity.

• 2:00:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  Is here in America, planted in America, cotton grows in America, harvested in America, obviously.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Died in America.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  Died in America.

• 2:00:11Jocko Willink?

  Shipped up to Maine.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  Repeat weaves it and a bunch of looms into fabric.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  And into geese. Boom, right on your back to start rolling. All made in America. That's all the stuff at Origin, by the way, if you don't know already. Yeah, they got some good rash guards and compression gear, which is what? Same thing?

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Rash guards and compression gear.

• 2:00:32Jocko Willink?

  I've noticed, because I didn't used to use rash guards other than for surfing. Do you notice?

• 2:00:42Jocko Willink?

  You feel a little bit of like the compression helps you athletically. Do you feel that?

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  I don't feel that. No, but the I'm not. I don't think I'm paying attention to be honest with you.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Placebo perhaps. What about people that get 19% improvement in their jujitsu skills?

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  That's real. That's hundred percent real. But me, you know, as far as good, but I hear good things about compression. Like I see the links to articles that say all the performance benefits and all this stuff. Here's the thing. I don't read them. I don't know.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  So I wear knee pads when I roll.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:18Jocko Willink?

  And I wear them for two reasons. Well, I wear them for three reasons. Number one, just abrasions on the knee, right? Whatever. Matt burn on your knee, which is cool. You get it. Maybe you get it. Maybe you get it once every three days. That's once every three days. You got Matt burn on your knee and you got blood and you got people that are like, hey, I don't want to roll with you because you're bleeding or whatever. So that's just a pain. Number two.

• 2:01:44Jocko Willink?

  It for me keeps them warm, right? The knee sleeves just keeps just warms up your knees. And number three, it provides a little bit of compression that makes me feel good. Now I feel when I put on a rash guard, I feel like that on my body, which is good. I don't know. I think it feels good.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Compression gear. I can't speak really on it, but I for damn sure can't speak against it. And it's all made in America and they're dope.

• 2:02:11Jocko Willink?

  Do some research.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. If if that even matters, you know, does that matter that much?

• 2:02:18Jocko Willink?

  Well, well, you wear it because it's efficient to roll in for sure.

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  The most efficient thing you can roll in is a rash guard.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like like A, that's the uniform. B, all the, the, what do you call it? Ergonomic? Nah, it's not ergonomic. It's like, you know how like you said, the Matt burn and you don't get Matt burn like all day, every day. It's just like, yeah, if you if you're going super hard and your knee or your elbow or whatever happens to be against the mat at it, you know, it's like, it's a happenstance situation unless you're new. Unless you're new, you're getting Matt burn.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that weird the way your body learns proprioception to keep you from getting, hey, you notice if you haven't rolled for a long time, you'll get your feet get all Matt burned up. Your knees get all Matt burned up.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 2:03:02Jocko Willink?

  When you're when you know when you're in the roll. Mode, you barely get mat burn.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:08Jocko Willink?

  You get it like once every three or four rolls. Well, once every three or four days, you'll get a little mat burn on the top of your toes.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro. I haven't had mat burn on top of my toes in like long time.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, it's like your skin gets smart. You're like, oh, what are we doing? Rolling? Okay, we gotta toughen up right now.

• 2:03:23Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever rolled on a, like a Resolute light wrestling mat? Barefoot after you've been rolling on a hard tatami mat for a while?

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:03:29Jocko Willink?

  It takes like a week to get used to it.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:03:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause you will stub your toe a bunch. Cause your toes won't know where to go. Cause they're deeper and softer.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like when you play football on grass and you go to artificial turf. You gotta get used to that. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, that's true. Anyway. Cool. Compression gear. Good. I'm glad that it's compression. Because some people do care about that. And I think that if you know.

• 2:03:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm one of those people.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Well, if you know the benefits and you're benefiting from it, there you go. Boom. I just, I don't think I've just been paying attention, but after this, guess what? I will. Because I'm not always right about things. As far as the way I look at them. Also. Also, I want to talk about Onnit.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  So. I would go into my whole kettlebell routine, which I smashed yesterday, by the way. I got a new Cyclops 1.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  By the way.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  So. Again.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Cool. If you got regular kettlebells, the regular ones, that's good. Cause doing kettlebells is way better than not doing kettlebells. What I recommend is you get the good ones, the dope, uh. Decorative, artistic. Deck, I don't like decorative. You like decorative? The word decorative? No, I'm here to win. Artistic, artistic. Kettlebells. I say get those ones. They're just way cooler. Especially if you're into Instagram stuff. That's what I think. It's my opinion. Nonetheless, they got regular ones as well. Go to Onnit.com slash Jocko. They have a bunch of fitness stuff. I noticed Jocko's mace. That he recommend I use for like other stuff, which is actually part of a big point that you can use a lot of this stuff for like various different sorts of exercise activities.

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they have like a bunch of cool stuff on there like um, stuff that's different from your traditional bench squat, you know, like functional stuff.

• 2:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, on it.com slash Jocko, go there, boom, support yourself, expand your workout, man. If you want, you could be like Jocko does the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  Very.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they vary over and over.

• 2:05:45Jocko Willink?

  They also have some strong.

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  Actually.

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  To be honest, I do the same exact workout all the time with variations, but those variations will come in.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Cycles that go over and over. Yeah, but that's kind of the whole point of a workout though. It's like your body gets used to certain activity. You can't let it get too used to it. That's why they say, you know, you gotta switch it up, all the shock your body, all this stuff. But if you're constantly just shocking your body, it's like, okay, we're doing, your body is kind of saying this to you. It's like, okay, what are we doing? I'm gonna get as good at it as possible. Okay? So however many times we gotta do this thing, I'm gonna try my best, as long as you feed me and rest me, I'm gonna try my best to accommodate you. As far as, you know, getting better at this thing. Now, if you give me one thing to do and say, get good at that, we're never doing it again. You're not, there's no real results, except for maybe the underlying system, you know?

• 2:06:36Speaker 01

  Maybe like your heart rate or your, you know, those types of things. Maybe your, um, what do you call your? You know, when you can endure like hard stuff mentally. Yeah, like mental durability, maybe that, but no, if you do like one exercise, sure, you'll be sore and then that's kind of it. The benefits of that program won't really, then again, I don't know, I could be wrong, I could be missing like some new science on the deal. Nonetheless.

• 2:07:00Jocko Willink?

  Research it.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Research it, get a good workout routine, and if you want to expand it, go on it, because they have the good stuff. Also, if you want to get Timothy Ferriss's book that Jocko was quoting, Jocko's in there, by the way.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  How many, how many quotes do you have in there?

• 2:07:21Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, 11. You asked 11 questions.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  11 questions, Jocko. So these, and they're the same, right? They're the same as the billboard one, all this stuff. Yeah. And here's the thing, like Tim will post like little excerpts of that, like just little quotes, you know? And that's a really interesting thing that he did there, where he asked everyone the same question.

• 2:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, because that's the type of person, Tim's personality, he looks for patterns and things, right? So that's how you find patterns.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  That's super clever. Like it's so, it's basically you have 11 categories of advice that you can get from these top level people in different like industries, different.

• 2:07:57Jocko Willink?

  And then he's got like, uh, he's, he's kind of sorts them in the back. So you can see what everyone, he, he, he kind of assembles the information in some various ways in the back of the book. So you can sort of pull and pool the knowledge.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that's great. That's good. Yeah, man, I actually like that kind. Um, but that is smart though. So that's essentially what you have. You have this big book of advice from all these complete, complete experts.

• 2:08:24Jocko Willink?

  That is exactly what it is.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dang. So there you go. When you get that, just, just go to here, look, we'll offer it. Jocko podcast.com. Go on the top, top menu, books from the episodes. Boom, I got you right there. Tribe of Mentors by Timothy Ferris. Click through there, it's a good way to support. If you want to shop for anything else, go ahead, do that, carry on, man. Support away.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Some people think that that's not a big deal.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  It is a big deal. Clicking through there, I mean, it is a big deal.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  You mean it's hard to do?

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  Easy to do, it's small action, small action, big reaction. Yep. It's like sodium when you throw it into water. Anyway, subscribe to the podcast, YouTube.

• 2:09:12Speaker 01

  That's for the video version, but on iTunes and Google Play, Stitcher all out podcasting, providing platforms. Seems, seems obvious, but you know, if you haven't already subscribed, it's a good way to support. Also YouTube, like I said, video version of this podcast. Also excerpts, if you want to share little ideas that have emerged from the podcast, you want to share them individually, they're on there. Most of them, I work on them every week, put them on there. You can share them. It's a good reason to subscribe to the YouTube. Also, I'll put some, uh, you know how people, what's called is like mashups? They're called mashups.

• 2:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  When you put like an excerpt of your voice.

• 2:09:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and they put music.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  Videos. Yes. They put some video, you know, some visual aid is what it's called.

• 2:09:58Jocko Willink?

  Wait, do you make mashups?

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  Make, I don't, here's the thing though. So a mashup is like, you just take various clips, you know, of whatever, you know, like they're just visual.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  You do like a whole thematic thing.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  And that's kind of the thing. So I don't know.

• 2:10:10Jocko Willink?

  Been a while though, so isn't it really? You think about it?

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  Kind of. I don't know. Sometimes they get hard. Um, yeah.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Create a block. Read the War of Art.

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  Or I might be just working diligently and obsessively on maybe new approaches and methods.

• 2:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Put the War of Art on their, on our site too, so people can get that.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  The War of Art. Yeah. I read that one. It was good.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  I, I need to maybe revisit it for this, for the video production standpoint. Nonetheless,

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  when I do make those videos, I put them on YouTube and that's yet another reason to subscribe. On top of the fact that it does support the podcast. So it's like a big circle loop of support. You see what I'm saying? Also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store, jockostore.com is where you can get your Discipline Equals Freedom shirt, Get After It shirt,

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  and other shirts of that type. Also rash guards on there, new rash guards on there.

• 2:11:13Speaker 01

  Two new rash guards on there. I don't know, two or three. You gotta look. Jocko pot or Jocko store.com. The rash guard is sodium. Small action, big reaction. That's a rash guard. I don't know. I gotta take the pictures. I gotta list them, you know? So during that process, hopefully.

• 2:11:32Jocko Willink?

  It sounds like that's real hard to do.

• 2:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Take pictures and list them. Anyone want a job out there in the world?

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  Having a hard time taking pictures of a rash guard.

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  Warrior kid rash guards for youth.

• 2:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  For the warrior kids themselves. So look out for that.

• 2:11:51Jocko Willink?

  My little daughter was sporting hers today.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  I know, right? It looks good. It looks good. It looks very, very, very, very good. Nonetheless, they're on there. Docstore.com. Got some hats on there. Beanie's coming as well. Um, and you know, other stuff. Look on there. Yeah. I'm not saying go buy a beanie. I'm not saying that.

• 2:12:06Jocko Willink?

  You might not need one. Maybe you're in Hawaii.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you'll wear a beanie in Hawaii just for the look. Yeah.

• 2:12:11Jocko Willink?

  But maybe you're in Chi-town.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:14Jocko Willink?

  And you need a beanie.

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  You're in Michigan, somewhere. Dang. Nonetheless, go on there. If you like something, get something. Good way to support. Also, Psychological Warfare on your campaign against weakness. That's what we're going with right now. Campaign against weakness, improving yourself. You're going from a person who is incapable of detaching, who is incapable of understanding the message rather than your feeling about the message. If you're that person, yet you're on the path to become a different person, someone who can understand the message first, feeling second. The ability to detach, we're always working on. And if you're working on that as well, this is what you do. You hit those moments of weakness, you have this album with tracks, Jocko tracks,

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  called Psychological Warfare. What it does is it takes any little element of your campaigning against weakness, any little element that you might slip on, that you might, you see that? Hey, I sounded like you right there. You see that? You might slip on it.

• 2:13:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:13:15Speaker 01

  You may feel a little weak. When you wake up, or when you're about to wake up, when you're about to get up, when you wake up, you're about to get up, it's 4:30 and you're like, dang, I'm gonna press this snooze. Don't worry, there's a track for that. You play that track, Jocko will give you pragmatic advice. On why you shouldn't hit this snooze. Same thing goes for skipping your workout, same thing goes for skimping on your diet, slipping on your diet, creative blah, procrastinate, all these things, it's like tracks for where Jocko's telling you why you shouldn't do that. It's like, hey, don't do that. You know, this is why, this is why, why it's beneficial for you to continue all that stuff. It's a good one. It helps. Hundred percent effective in spotting people when they need a little spot. If then, if, if you need a spot, sometimes you don't need

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  a spot. Sometimes you're just getting after it. Hundred percent. But that's a good one for that.

• 2:14:05Jocko Willink?

  You also on Amazon can get Jocko White Tea, which is good. If you don't believe me, go read the reviews on there. I'll read some of them again. I've read a couple of them on here, but you can read them yourself. The reviews explain that when you drink Jocko White Tea, you can deadlift 8,000 pounds at a minimum. So that's a guarantee. People don't understand. Guaranteed. Yeah. If you don't think, if you can't, I'll give you your money back for the tea. Yep. Also got some books. You can get them anywhere, really. Way the Warrior Kid.

• 2:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Thank you, everyone that gives me feedback all the time. Kids that are doing various things, like studying, like reading the book, studying, doing jujitsu, doing pull-ups, swimming, competing, just all kinds of awesome stuff. Everything from figure skating to ballet to wrestling, seen it all. Little warrior kids getting after it. That's a book for any kid that you want to put on the proper path.

• 2:15:19Jocko Willink?

  Of discipline, of hard work. The next book, the next Warrior Kid book is coming out April 28th. I'll let you know when it pops up for pre-order. Extreme Ownership, the new edition is out. It's longer, it has a little new forward in it. It's got some new pictures, color pictures, by the way, color.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  Oh dang, stepping it up.

• 2:15:40Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't like that. I was like, no, make them black and white, black and white only. That's how I roll.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:46Jocko Willink?

  There's also some Q and A on there, which is the Q and A that's in the new version is from this podcast, which means it's from you listeners. So thank you for the questions. And also the new version, it's black. And it's flat black. Did you notice that? It's flat black? Did you notice that? Yeah, that makes it even better. It's regular black.

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  Right. Well, what's regular black?

• 2:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Glossy.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  Oh glossy.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  You hear that dog barking?

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:15Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Savage.

• 2:16:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there must be somebody invading

• 2:16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:21Jocko Willink?

  The podcast space. Uh, yeah, you can get the, the new version of Extreme Ownership right now. Flat black, questions from the podcast, all that. Also, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 2:16:33Jocko Willink?

  So, um, this book, it's not a normal book, right? We know that. It, it's a book that, when if you give it to somebody, they don't feel like, oh, he just went and grabbed me a book. They don't feel like that. They think, dang. Cause it's not normal. So the publisher knows that, right? So they wanted a little tagline and they sent me some, hey, we come up with some taglines. And they, they gave me this tagline.

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:17:05Jocko Willink?

  Can I make fun of my publisher?

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  Yes, especially if they sound like that.

• 2:17:08Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like I'm going to do that right now. So my publisher, they say, we're gonna make, we're gonna have a little tagline. You can sell your book.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  And they said, well, you know, here's our tagline. This book makes a great gift for the holiday season.

• 2:17:23Jocko Willink?

  Something like that, right? And they send me, cause I always say like, hey, don't be saying stuff about my stuff without asking me first. Yeah. Cause you guys will say dumb stuff about my cool stuff and I like that. So they said, this book makes a great holiday gift or whatever. And I said, no, and I thought about it for four seconds. And I wrote them back and I said, use this.

• 2:17:49Jocko Willink?

  There is no better gift than the gift of discipline. Boom, factually, there's your tagline. So for your people in your life, that you don't want to get them a stupid gift, like a necktie? Or a belt? Or something else that they don't want or need? They need this book. The best gift you can give is the gift of discipline. So there you go. That's a, hey, by the way, people keep asking me and I keep telling everyone, everyone wants the audio version of this book. And they say, when is it coming out? It's out. It's out. The audio version of Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, it's out right now.

• 2:18:32Jocko Willink?

  It's on iTunes, it's on Amazon Music, it's on Google Play, it's on other MP3 platforms. The reason we did that is because if you put it on Audible, Audible, you can't pull it out as tracks. And use it for alarm or use it to spot yourself if you get a moment of weakness, which this book is good for. So that's where you can get the audio version and beyond the books, beyond the podcast for leadership training and execution with your business or your team. You can contact our leadership consulting company. It's me, it's Leif Babin, it's JP Denell, it's Dave Burke. You can email [email protected].

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  And if you have questions for us or you have answers for us, we want to hear them both. You can communicate with us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on Facebook.

• 2:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and to the servicemen and women world ride right now defending freedom. Thank you for your service and for giving us the ability to do this podcast and to the families of those servicemen and women that are supporting them from home. Thank you for your sacrifice day to day. It is much appreciated and to the police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, other first responders. Thank you for doing what you're doing, which is keeping us safe here at home and answering the call when it comes.

• 2:20:15Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else that's listening, just remember that sure you have a team. You have friends and family and coworkers and colleagues and you have a support network and you have people you can call and that's great, but don't count on them. Don't wait for them. Don't assume that they are coming to the rescue.

• 2:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Take lead, take ownership, take action, get out there and get after it.

• 2:20:52Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.