The Scientists BONUS EPISODE: The Giving Valve (inspired by Richard Dawkins' Selfish Gene)

Please join my mailing list here 👉 https://briankeating.com/list to win a meteorite 💥 In this special bonus audio essay, Brian shares personal reflections inspired by his recent experience hosting evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins on the final North American stop of Dawkins' legendary speaking tour. After a career filled with interviewing Nobel laureates and deep thinkers—from Sam Harris to Peter Thiel's Venice conferences—Brian turns inward to explore a fresh idea: the "giving valve." Drawing on Dawkins' groundbreaking work "The Selfish Gene" and the concept of genetic legacy, Brian challenges us to look beyond biology and consider what truly endures when we’re gone: our values. Is passing on knowledge or wisdom more significant than our genetic code? How do our choices, beliefs, and ethical frameworks shape the future long after our genes are forgotten? Brian blends personal anecdotes, thoughtful musings, and lessons from philosophy and faith to make a compelling case for prioritizing the transmission of meaning over mere survival. Whether you’re fascinated by science, philosophy, or what it means to leave a lasting impact, this episode sets the stage for a heartfelt conversation—and a deep dive into what really makes us human. - Key Takeaways: 00:00 "Comparing Dawkins and Clavin Experiences" 03:45 Intellectual Gatherings Funded by Peter Thiel 07:22 Professor's Perspective: Podcasting & Preparation 11:31 "Knowledge vs. Wisdom Exploration" 16:50 Two Contrasting Adams Explained 19:11 Immortal Legacy Through Contribution 23:45 Legacy Beyond Biology 25:21 "Passing Down Our Values" - Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmXH_moPhfkqCk6S3b9RWuw/join Get a copy of my books: Think Like a Nobel Prize Winner, with life changing interviews with 9 Nobel Prizewinners: https://a.co/d/03ezQFu My tell-all cosmic memoir Losing the Nobel Prize: http://amzn.to/2sa5UpA The first-ever audiobook from Galileo: Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems: Ptolemaic and Copernican https://a.co/d/iZPi9Un 📺 Watch my most popular videos:📺 Neil Turok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt5cFLN65fI Frank Wilczek https://youtu.be/3z8RqKMQHe0?sub_confirmation=1 Eric Weinstein vs. Stephen Wolfram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI0AZ4Y4Ip4?sub_confirmation=1 Sir Roger Penrose: https://youtu.be/AMuqyAvX7Wo Sabine Hossenfelder: https://youtu.be/g00ilS6tBvs Avi Loeb: https://youtu.be/N9lUceHsLRw Follow me to ask questions of my guests: 🏄‍♂️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrBrianKeating 🔔 Subscribe https://www.youtube.com/DrBrianKeating?sub_confirmation=1 📝 Join my mailing list; just click here http://briankeating.com/list ✍️ Detailed Blog posts here: https://briankeating.com/blog 🎙️ Listen on audio-only platforms: https://briankeating.com/podcast #universe #podcast #briankeating #intotheimpossible #science #astronomy #cosmology #cosmicmicrowavebackground #intotheimpossible #briankeating Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:12Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. It is your fearful host, Professor Brian Keating. And you are listening to an audio essay. I haven't done one of these in a long time, maybe six months since I had on renowned consciousness expert, the Malibu Meditator, my sort of friend, I would say, Sam Harris. He and I have spoken a bunch since this episode. I don't think he was as upset as some of you were with that episode, but that was the last time I did one of these audio episodes, audio essays, rather. And I thought it would be kind of fun to reestablish these, maybe make it a regular segment.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  And the occasion of this one is the hosting of Richard Dawkins. My hosting of Richard Dawkins this past weekend in Vancouver, Canada.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  And Richard is the only other living member of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I had on Corst and Neil Dennett. I never had on Christopher Hitchens, although I spoke with Richard about that in Vancouver. And I spoke about Sam and Dan Dennett on my first of the two episodes I've done with Richard Dawkins so far. And, you know, he must have been rather pleased with those because he did invite me to be his host in Vancouver. And they flew me up there first class all the way and put me up in a wonderful hotel and all expenses paid from here in San Diego all the way up to Vancouver. And I hadn't been to Vancouver in a long time. It's a beautiful city. I posted some pictures of the event, my time

• 2:50Speaker 02

  there on X. And I was privileged to be able to introduce him and speak in front of about 1,200 people live on a Sunday night in the middle of fall in Vancouver. It was quite a mind blowing experience for me. He's had on many other great hosts at live events. This is his final tour. And in fact, my event on Sunday, the 6th of October was the last event he ever will do like this in North America. And it was the only one in Canada. So it was, it was quite a privilege, I said. And, you know, I, I love talking with him. I love debating. We don't agree on everything. We spent a couple hours together before the

• 3:32Speaker 02

  show, schmoozing him and his co author slash partner, Yana Lenzova, who did the illustrations for his Flights of Fancy book and also for this book, which is quite wonderful, The Genetic Book of the Dead. And he did enjoy it. And he did have on many other, you know, he had many people to choose from, including local Canadians, who were probably miffed that a San Diegan flew up from the farthest possible point in the West Coast to Vancouver to do it. I took jobs away from Canadians, which is something I love to do. But this episode is with Spencer Klavan, and I thought it would be kind of interesting

• 4:13Speaker 02

  to compare and contrast my experience with Richard Dawkins and that of Spencer Klavan. Spencer is also unique. He's a gay conservative, an openly gay conservative, and he is quite erudite and just a lovely scholar to talk to. But he's a believing Christian. Actually, his father was a convert to Christianity, so-called Messianic Jew. He is Andrew Klavan, who I've been on his podcast. And I met him, Andrew, two years ago in Italy, and I met Spencer just this past year in Italy when I was an attendee at a conference sponsored by Peter Thiel. So Peter loves to bring together people from all different backgrounds,

• 4:58Speaker 02

  including atheists and secular people, Jews, Christians, Christian Jews, Jewish Christians, all sorts of people. And he's had on many, as I said, non-believers, Heather McDonald, Michael Shermer, and many others. But, you know, sort of we, practicing Jews and/ secular Jews were vastly outnumbered at those conferences. But I have used it as an opportunity to consult and converse with people. And I actually was able to record an episode of the Hoover Institutions podcast, Uncommon Knowledge, with Peter Robinson and Luke Barnes and Jay Richards. And that was a wonderful experience for me and got over 100,000 views immediately

• 5:40Speaker 02

  on YouTube. They have a million subscriber channel and great reach and hoping to do another episode with them in the future as well. So these conferences Peter Thiel puts on completely at his own expense. These are quite expensive. Many, many dozens of people come to Italy for a week at a sumptuous hotel. In Florence, and that is just one of the best experiences that an intellectual can have. Find food, find wine, find discussions in sumptuous surroundings. I'll tell you more about that in the future if you're interested in learning more about those things. And Peter Thiel also speaks at these conferences. And I enjoy them greatly. And again, we're surrounded

• 6:21Speaker 02

  by great intellects. And it's just a wonderful experience. But this audio essay is not about any of those people, no far from it. It is inspired by my new friend, Professor Dawkins, who I've come to know over the past few months since I received his latest book, The Genetic Book of the Dead, and then had this wonderful, unique opportunity to be the last person to host him on his final tour in North America. And at age 83, I have to say, I hope that good looking, I mean, his face is like a 25 year old Scandinavian, you know, face cream

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  model. It's just amazing. He's so well preserved for an 83 year old. And he is also incredibly energetic. He had a very bad cold, which I've developed a little bit of, and you can probably hear, but he still did the tour anyway, after just arriving the day before from Portland, the day before that, hosted by Michael Shermer in San Francisco, and soon to be hosted by my good friend, Peter Boghossian, in Europe, and many other people. And he's also had a great time in Austin, Texas. He was hosted by Chris Williamson. And he's really just a renowned individual, intellect combined with this incredible energy.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Something like 20 tour dates and 30 days in America, and then an equal amount coming up in the UK and Europe. He'll be in Belgium with Peter Boghossian, and find out more information on his website, richarddawkinstour.net, something like that.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  So I wanted to have a discussion with you, or maybe a monologue with you about my, my thoughts on something that Richard inspired me to after preparing for the episodes. You know, I'm not good at a lot of things. I think, you know, my day job is a cosmologist. I think I'm pretty good as a professor, but very good at preparing for these interviews. And I do enjoy it. And maybe I'm not the greatest at being a podcast host, but I think the, my record kind of speaks for itself in terms of, you know, getting the most out of my conversations in a unique way and bringing a unique angle as an experimental physicist. And it's very rare. He's had people, again, hosting him like Michael Shermer and Chris

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Williamson and Colin Wright and many others. Kamel, as well, a friend, hosted him in Newark, New Jersey in front of 5,000 people. But I think I bring a different perspective as a real professor operating every day. You know, this podcast is more of a hobby and a side hustle, not a source of income or, you know, aspirations to be in the memeosphere and just wanting to share my thoughts that I've gleaned from reading 500 books in the past four years and doing that number of episodes on the Into the Impossible podcast. So I think I prepare really well. And in the preparation, I came upon his book, The

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Selfish Gene, which appeared almost 50 years ago. It's incredible. Just after I was born in the 1970s, 1976. And that was kind of a revolutionary book. It wasn't necessarily postulating, you know, unknown theories of biology or evolution. He's a zoologist after all. But, but in that book, he did propose that genes are the fundamental units of natural selection and that they act selfishly in their own interest to ensure their own survival and propagate into future generations. And this is not at the DNA level.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  This is a more holistic encapsulation of the genetic legacy, if you will, of the organism. So a lot of his books deal with genetics, not necessarily at the, you know, psychological level or what have you, but the impetus and why different aspects of the gene and our genotypes manifest in what he calls the extended phenotype. And that is another thing he's known for. And by the way, he coined, I think in that same book, the concept of the meme, a cultural element, a nugget, like a gene that propagates and spreads. It could be spread virally. And so that was a great contribution to to culture.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  And obviously, if you've ever shared a photograph of the bad boyfriend or Drake. And as I said in my introduction to Richard in Vancouver, you know, Elon Musk owes him not an insignificant amount of meme coins, of Doge coin. And I hope he will receive it. So I want to talk about a related thought that I had upon rereading and re encountering the selfish gene. And that was maybe in contrast, not to disagree, but to provide what I think is more valuable to all of us than than genes. And I want to explain it and something I call the giving valve. Hopefully that'll be made more apparent. Originally, I thought of it as calling it the altruistic valve.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  But I think the giving valve makes a little bit more sense. I fundamentally think that what's important to us is the only really conscious in the way that we are individuals, Richard and I both derive concepts like panpsychism and so forth. But what really matters is not your genetic material being, you know, sprayed into the future so that future generations can propagate some sequences of a quaternary code. But rather, what matters to each of us is actually that our values get propagated. That's our legacy. In other words, it's sort of parallels this wisdom versus knowledge dichotomy that I always try to explore. You know, I've interviewed 21 Nobel Prize winners.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Coming up soon is Katalin Karakow, my most recent interview with a Nobel laureate, inventor of the COVID-19 vaccine, co inventor. And I often want to explore for my own benefit, if not for your benefit as the audience, the notion of whether or not a sufficient amount of knowledge can equal wisdom. In other words, if you just have enough knowledge, are you functionally equivalent to something with wisdom? You know, will ChatGPT 5O strawberry preview, whatever, will that eventually become not only artificial general intelligence, but artificial general

• 13:02Speaker 02

  wisdom? And I think not, as I've explained in many conversations that I've had with leading consciousness thinkers, but I'll save that, you know, kind of conjecture for another audio essay perhaps. But I want to focus on what I believe is more significant, and that's the transmission of our values. So to recap some from the selfish gene, you know, humans share over 50% of our genetic material with fruit flies and not too dissimilar amount with bananas. So when you consider that, and then you consider furthermore, the 99% similarity with chimpanzees, there's something special about that miniscule, you

• 13:45Speaker 02

  know, 1% difference. You know, if you shared 99% of your net worth with Elon Musk, that wouldn't be much of a difference between 99% of Elon.

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• 14:26Speaker 02

  And your wealth or, you know, and his wealth. But that miniscule 1% difference accounts for the remarkable distinction in our own, you know, phenotype, genotype, that makes us distinct. And that's that 1%. Is by itself equal to an entire universe, if you think about it. It accounts for our language, our social structure, cooperation, science, development of science, technological innovation, our memory. I don't believe we share the same memory capacity as a chimpanzee. All these things that they're so different and it not just pure intelligence that were more raw intelligence or brain size.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Richard, you know, talked about the concept that you've all know a Harari, who I've invited on, but has not replied yet, but you know, join the club, you know, suggests that in a hundred or 200 years, Homo sapiens will be subservient to a new genus of Homo, of hominid that comes around. And Richard thinks that's likely to be true, that these augmented humans or these AI-enabled, you know, trans meta-humans will really supersede Homo sapiens and will be left in the dust. Now, what does Homo sapien mean? It means man who knows. It's not Homo scienzia, which means man who has knowledge. Homo sapiens.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  It means a hominid that is sapient, that is wise, not one that is pure knowledge. That would be Homo sciences. So it does raise the question of this 1% difference, this one critical percent. Where does it reside and what does it manifest itself in? I'd like to think that it manifests itself in those very distinct capabilities, language, complex social structures, technological innovation. Those are all shared by other animals, but not at the level that we have. But there's one thing that no animal has, and that's a value system. And so if that's tiny genetic variation leads to such profound differences in our social

• 16:32Speaker 02

  structures, language, cooperation, science, shouldn't we also kind of treasure and maximize the unique 1% difference in the ways that truly matter, which is in our value system? So I want to talk about this, this difference in what humans can achieve, not just in terms of those three, you know, Properties I talked about thinking, problem solving and language and science, et cetera. But those are important. They enable us to decode the mysteries of the cosmos in my case and study subatomic particles and understand how biological systems work and all the incredible

• 17:13Speaker 02

  discoveries that science has provided. But the ultimate in intellectual curiosity still is important, but it's not really at the level of something of crucial importance to you or me. And I'll explain that. Yes, it's true, and we're proud of it as a species, but on a daily basis, or even in a lifetime, your legacy is not really what you did. You talk about famous book by David Brooks, I think in The Road to Character, he talks about these two different types of virtues, resume virtues, things you brag about, what college you went to, where you're a professor,

• 17:52Speaker 02

  if you won a Nobel Prize. And then there's eulogy virtues, where somebody bespeaks of what you meant as a husband, father, wife, sister, daughter, et cetera. And that's what people really care about. By the way, that comes from Rabbi Soloveitchik's concept of Adam 1 and Adam 2 and the Torah and the Old Testament and Genesis, beginning of Genesis, there are two almost identical descriptions of Adam, the first human being. And again, this is not a science topic, but it's a question of morality and wisdom connected to our values. And in that duplicative

• 18:37Speaker 02

  discussion of Adam, which many atheists and skeptics use to point out the fallibility and the falsehood of the Bible, of the Torah, because, oh, they say, oh, there's two different descriptions, and they disagree. That's not really the message. The message is to, and I'm not being an apologeticist. I'm just explaining how at an advanced level, and I studied the Torah, the Old Testament, and the original Hebrew and Aramaic, so I can hold my own with people like Spencer, even though I'm a scientist and my day to day life is to study the 14 billion year old universe, not believe that it is 5,785 years old, literally. And I do want to wish you all a happy new year, shanah tovah. But when we think about these two different

• 19:21Speaker 02

  atoms in the Torah, there's a type of atom that plows the fields and makes a living and has a wife and has kids. And then there's the one who prays to God and supplicates and, and, and makes sacrifices. And that is sort of the eulogy virtue versus the resume virtue, you know, on Adam's tombstone, it says, you know, he plowed the fields for a couple hundred, no, it doesn't say that. It says he was a father and he also, you know, he has one fewer rib than his wife for reasons we're not going to get into. But the point is that we're made up of these two diametrically opposed sorts of aspects in that, and your eulogy, no one's going to say, you know, Brian Keating went to Brown University for his PhD. Nobody cares. They're going to care, was it a father, a son, a

• 20:06Speaker 02

  brother, a friend, a husband? Hopefully I said that at least once for my wife who's listening. So it's not just our capabilities, it's not just our knowledge, it's not just our genes, you know, he was healthy, he ran a five minute mile, which I can aspire to someday, or, you know, I played tennis in high school. No, nobody cares about my genetics. That won't matter. And no one will remember, as it's often said, you know, a man dies twice, once when he physically departs and the last time his, his name is ever said. I don't know if I really believe that. There's some people that never die then. And they're not undead because they live forever genetically.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Or biologically, they're undead and they live on because their contributions to the world made a big difference. So I explore this concept and contradistinction to the selfish gene. And I call it the giving valve, where a valve, instead of being a gene, the gene is the unit of genetic and physical, biological encapsulation, encoding, the uniqueness of the chromosomes and the genetic makeup of an individual. And those, I agree with Richard, they have a desire and a categorical imperative to move into the future and lodge themselves and spray themselves out into posterity. But that's not what matters to us. It's

• 21:29Speaker 02

  our values that we choose to pass down. That's what matters. And you don't have to have kids, by the way. I do think it's important for people to have children if they can, or raise children, adopt children. I'm adopted. And, and because of that, you know, there are different kind of perspectives that I have. So not just biological, but you can influence people ideologically. And I often talk about that when I discuss the ethical will, the zava'ah in Hebrew, that I often ask every Nobel laureate that comes on the podcast. So let me ask you a question to illustrate this. What would you prefer to have? Would you like to have 10 children? It should be a lot, except if your name is Musk, who has at least two more. We don't know exactly. There are Poisson uncertainties in how many

• 22:11Speaker 02

  kids he has. But would you like to have 10 children who are, you know, which is an enormous number. It's five standard deviations in America from the average. Would you rather have 10 children who are your political opposites, your religious opposites, converted to different religions? Maybe they became atheists, or maybe you're an atheist and they became religious. My father used to feel that way, too. He'd say, I don't believe in God, but I believe in the devil, because he made you become more spiritually active in Judaism. Or would you rather have one child, just one, who shares and upholds your deepest values? It's amazing. Our genes, as Richard says, I agree 100%. They ensure our biological survival, but our values ensure the survival of meaning.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  And this perspective shift from genetic legacy to a legacy of values is the essence of what I call the giving vow, the giving being an altruistic act, giving by its nature, without any expectation thereof. So it kind of flips the script where genes operate on survival, competition, and have to be possessed as virtue of selfishness, valves, as I call them, represent the flow of values, wisdom, ethics, compassion, not for your individual gain, but for the collective good of future generation. To me, that's about instilling ethical frameworks that will guide society many, many generations after we're gone. Again, we don't think about someone's genetics. We don't know

• 23:36Speaker 02

  anything about Moses's genetics or Jesus's genetics. And similarly, we don't know much about Galileo's genetics. People like Isaac Newton didn't have any children. But we can see it manifested in many cultural and religious practices. In my religion, I just mentioned ethical wills or zabaas, these appear in Orthodox Judaism. In the Torah, Jacob blesses his children with a blessing of wisdom, how they should act. Again, I'm not taking it literally, but just when you take it seriously, you look at how unlike a legal will that bequeaths material possessions and ethical will passes down your values, your moral guidance and your spiritual beliefs, if any. And it could

• 24:20Speaker 02

  be atheist. Moses did the same thing at the end of Deuteronomy. And I know my Mormon friends have a practice of family sealing, I believe it's called, where family members are bound together eternally. It goes beyond the spiritual beliefs. It's a moral commitment to uphold a set of values that transcend individual lifetimes. Genealogical work and baptisms for the dead, as they practice it, reflect a deep commitment to ancestors and descendants. And that's what I'm emphasizing. Your legacy is of your shared values, not your genetic chemical makeup of G, A, T, Cs, and Gs, and As, and Ts, and Cs. So

• 25:01Speaker 02

  in both these faith traditions, the focus isn't on being perpetuating sacks of chromosomes, but on transmitting values. And that's the heart of what I call the giving vow. While our biological makeup certainly is significant, it's the ethical and moral compass we leave behind that really will be your legacy, your eulogy, if you will. So with the rise of AI and large language models, concerns about existential threats are numerous, and I worry about those too, but I take comfort in the fact that these systems of large language models have no values whatsoever. That's way more than a 1% difference. It's not just the realm of bits and atoms that I study, but it's the

• 25:42Speaker 02

  values that make us human, and no AI can replicate that. So how do we maximize this distinction? I say, you know, take on descendants, either biological or ideological. Prioritize how you can cultivate your ideology to be helpful to future generations. Remember, Homo sapiens, wisdom man. That's what we are, men and women. By focusing like this, we can enhance our lives and really enrich the things that are most valuable. The giving valve is a conduit through which our most cherished values can flow into the future, shaping humanity in ways that genes alone cannot. Like genetics, it's a one-way valve,

• 26:24Speaker 02

  it's a one-way street. You can't be influenced from the future, not yet at least. But in our world, we're so obsessed with genetic legacy, survival, procreation, just spraying genes out. I know for a fact Elon Musk said that one of his kids is dead to him. That's that's an awful thing to say, by the way, and I I hope to someday get him to flesh out that concept that he talked about with Jordan Peterson. Jordan's a friend. I've had Elon's, you know, intention on the podcast earlier this year for 15 minutes. I hope to get him back on. And I do want to talk to him about that respectfully. What does that mean? Does it mean that he regrets another human being? As a father, it's hard for me to hear that. It makes me emotional. So in a world obsessed with genetic legacy and

• 27:09Speaker 02

  survival, let's look at the things that we care about. And that to me is transmitting our values. In doing so, we can embrace the giving valve and make a conscious effort to pass down not just our genes, but the very best of what and who we are, what makes us human. Anyway, that's it. Now onto the interview with Spencer Klavon. We'll turn it over to my Introduction that I made for that episode. I hope you enjoy it and let me know in a review what you thought of this audio essay. You can leave a review. It's only on audio. You're not going to see on the podcast, on Apple Podcasts, on Audible Podcasts and on Spotify. You can leave feedback and leave a rating if you would as well. Don't forget to follow, even if it's a hate follow.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  I appreciate all of you. Happy New Year to those that observe and talk to you on the flip side of this introduction. Bye bye.

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