The Case That's Breaking Marriages: Why Men and Women See Lindsay Clancy So Differently

On today's episode of Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu, Drew joins the table for a no-holds-barred reaction to the Lindsay Clancy mistrial and the explosive debate it has ignited around personal responsibility, mental illness, gender, and criminal justice. The conversation dives deep into why society seems to be abandoning the notion of individual accountability in favor of empathy—even for the most tragic acts—and how this shift could have dire consequences for public safety and social values. As the hosts dissect the differing approaches to men and women in the legal system, the pitfalls of the insanity plea, and the influence of social media echo chambers, they confront uncomfortable questions about free will, the dangers of algorithm-driven realities, and the ever-widening gulf between men’s and women’s perspectives in the digital age. Expect candid dialogue, sharp insights, and a challenge to conventional thinking in a conversation that promises to spark debate long after the episode ends. Tailor Brands: Check out Tailor Brands to get started with your business today: https://bit.ly/TailorBrandsSept Quince: Free shipping and 365-day returns at https://quince.com/impactpod ElevenLabs: Book your demo at https://elevenlabs.io/impactpod Butcherbox: Go to https://ButcherBox.com/IMPACT https://butcherbox.com/IMPACT to get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ribeye, new york strip, or filet mignon in every box for a year — with free shipping always Quo: ​​Try for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months at https://quo.com/impact Shopify: Sign up for your free trial period at https://shopify.com/impact Netsuite: For the first time ever you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to https://NetSuite.ai/Theory https://netsuite.ai/Theory. Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code IMPACT at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/impact Pique: 20% off at https://piquelife.com/impact What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: Want my help starting a business? Join me here inside Zero To Founder https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show Sign up for my AI Masterclass: AI Masterclass https://tombilyeu.com/ai-masterclass?utm_campaign=Live%20Masterclass&utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=evergreen FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:07Speaker 01

  The judge just declared a mistrial in the Lindsay Clancy trial.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Oh shit.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I know you've been waiting to talk about this.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  11 people think she's not guilty, and one person was the lone holdout saying that she actually needs to take responsibility for her actions. It is wild to me that we've gotten to this point because we are so abandoning the idea of personal responsibility that we are putting all of ourselves in danger because we will make society less and less safe by acknowledging that there's a massive amount of empathy that should be given to anybody that gets caught up, whether it is they were just born a sociopath. Dude, there but for the grace of God go I. None of us earned our brain. It's just the result of genetics and upbringing. It is what it is. So whether it's because she was born a sociopath,

• 1:57Speaker 00

  whether it's because the drugs that she decided to take or stopped taking, as some people are claiming. Hey, I feel bad, man. It's rough that our brains can go the way that they go. But that does not mean that we don't hold people accountable. Unfortunately, there is a story. In fact, I pulled this up a couple of episodes ago. We didn't end up getting to it. I'm not going to remember the specifics unless Drew can bring it up, but I know the gist of it well enough. I can walk you through. There was a woman who ends up killing her three kids. This is back in the 50s, like literally same scenario. Married, ends up killing her kids and pleads insanity.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Constantine, Constantine Fisher?

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. Constantine Fisher ends up killing her three kids, pleads insanity and gets off. And she goes, or not gets off, but she goes to a mental hospital instead of going to prison, which for everybody in the Lindsay Clancy story, that's the question. It's not, was she guilty or not guilty? She said herself on the record, I killed my three kids. No one is debating that. They're just debating whether she can be held criminally responsible for the fact that she killed her three kids. Okay, so flashback to the 50s, exact same debate, okay? Was she criminally responsible?

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Now, what we're saying is that this person somehow, some way, got themselves into a position where they could not control themselves. And we feel so empathetic and so bad about the fact that this woman couldn't control herself. And we so, I guess, relate. I don't fucking relate. I'm gonna be real honest with you. But we get to the point where we're just like, whoa, I guess she couldn't control herself. It is what it is. And so they put her into a mental hospital. She's there for, I believe, five years. She's in this mental hospital, and then they're like, hey, you're not in psychosis anymore. You're wonderful. This is great. You were killed. And because it wasn't your fault, from a criminal perspective, we're gonna let you back out. And she, her husband stands by her.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  They have three more kids. Guess what she does, Drew?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  She kills them too.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  She kills them too. Boys and girls, when you have somebody who is prone to that break, whether we want to admit it or not, or whether she's just a psychopath and was able to hide it from the people in the courts, you are in a position where you just have to say, listen, for the safety of society, we have to get this person off the street. And then on top of that, you had a guy go through the same thing, kills his three kids. I think this was like 2018?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Killed five kids.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Oh, Jesus. So Timothy Ray kills five kids. Same thing, having a schizophrenic psychotic episode. And people go, oh yeah, he's guilty. They deliberate, deliberate for two hours and then give him the death penalty. So we have some weird storm brewing here where we've got women being looked at one way, and we've got men being looked at another way. Now, I'll say, men are being looked at in the right way. Hold that motherfucker accountable. So you killed your five kids? I really do feel bad because remember, I think we are all essentially NPCs in a video game. The book Determined by Robert Sapolsky, literally, as far as I can tell, just shuts down every conceivable angle,

• 5:19Speaker 00

  religious, spiritual, quantum, all of it, just all shut down. Read the book. Absolutely extraordinary. We do not have free will. I know people hate it when I say that, but I'm approaching this saying, we don't have free will. So I have empathy for these people. I did not earn the fact that I am not, so far, have proven that I'm not likely to get sucked into this. But let's say at some point, I break bad. Yep, you gotta punish me for the crime. Just simple as, no excuses will do. No, I was temporarily psychotic. It's like, well, unfortunately, you have proven that you can go temporarily psychotic, so we can't have that. So kids, this is where you've got to look at, we should want empathy for sure. Empathy is a great thing. It is, it is a needed thing.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  And I'm all for having a robust conversation about the fullness of the human experience and that we can all look at Lindsay Clancy and just be like, that's so horrible. Thank God that I didn't break that way. That, I get all of that. What we can't do is brain rot into, well, that means that this person isn't going to be held criminally responsible, whether we have free will or not. Whether this was somebody who got put on too many medications. At the end of the day, we all have to take personal responsibility for our actions. Now Drew, I'm telling you, I need the best fucking arguments, even if it's Tom's an asshole, whatever. If that's as far as they can muster, I really want to go down this path. We are headed to a very morally dark place.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  And, and let me tell you, the first stop on the morally dark place that we go to is that we take a paternalistic view of women and say, look, it's not their fault that they are beholden to their emotions. They can't think through things rationally. They're an intuitive creature. They're just sort of steering through life and, you know, they have these tremendous mood swings and we have to be understandable of that. And in fact, I pulled, it's very meme-y. And I know some people, my, my wife has not been happy with how I've talked about this. Be very clear. I, I'm not trying to make light of this, but this meme, while funny, really gets to the point. You don't understand what it's like to be a woman who is hormonal. There needs to be empathy and she shouldn't be held liable for any criminal behavior.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Precisely. I could not have summed it up better myself. Who are you? We are all the men ever before the 20th century.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  So obviously, this is meant to be a feminist who would support Lindsay Clancy, going after, pointing out the fact that women didn't have the right to vote. Fact check me, Ryan. Is it true that Mississippi didn't give women the right to vote till like 1968?

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Mississippi ratified the 19th amendment on March 22nd, 1984.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Okay, that's fucking crazy.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  You're older than a woman's right to vote in Mississippi.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Bro, so this is where I'm saying, this is a slippery slope. So there was a very long time where people took this paternalistic view of women that it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, pat them on the head. Don't worry, I'll vote for the family, that kind of thing. And they're making an argument that they don't intend to reinforce that. But on the hormonal side, that's exactly what you're doing. So anyway, okay, let this play.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Ew, no, you treated women as second-class citizens. What I'm saying is that because women are hormonal. Deemed incapable of self-governance and therefore requires a male chaperone that can protect and guide the weaker sex. Ew, no, that's so sexist. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying because of our hormones. Yes, because your hormones become incapacitated, incapable of making rational decisions, and your emotions become to control you like a child. And women should not be held accountable during such fits. This is precisely what I'm saying. Ew, stop saying what I was gonna say like it was your point. I'm just saying that this woman shouldn't be in prison. She should be put. Should be put in a mental asylum. Yes, because women are not criminals. Their hormones dictate their very lives. They are slaves to their emotions. And so they cannot choose. They are forced to do whatever they feel

• 9:09Speaker 01

  because they are children incapable of controlling their emotions. We agree.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Did I just F up feminism?

• 9:18Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I think it, this is a simple case. Given that we've had men be in the exact same situation and we all just go, yeah, death penalty.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, you need to have that same energy around personal responsibility for women that are in this situation. It is absolutely horrible. It is bleak. It is so tragic. And truly, there but for the grace of God, go all of us. Nobody should be feeling superior to somebody that ends up having a catastrophic mental illness or failure of that type. But the reality is, when you start letting people that have a mental illness roam the streets, then you get the schizophrenic stabbing people on the train. You get people that do all, there was the guy that was walking around punching women in the face. And low and behold, you talk to the family and the family's like, we have been begging somebody to get him off the streets to understand you cannot let him go back.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  He is having a mental health crisis and unless he is forcibly treated, he's just going to keep doing it. And of course, he does. So, yeah, this is where I get the empathy. I get why people feel terrible that this is a reality, but this is the reality. Healthy Gamer, I don't know if you guys know him, but he is a, certainly a therapist. I don't know if he is a, he might be a licensed psychologist. I don't believe he's a psychiatrist. Now, it's my understanding, only a psychiatrist can prescribe medications, so keep that in mind. But he is talking about this, what I found interesting, so his take comes before the verdict, I think it was a couple of weeks ago. But it's still very interesting because, one, he and his wife are having a collision

• 10:58Speaker 00

  in the same way that me and my wife are having a collision over this, which is already fascinating in and of itself. But he does a pretty interesting job of walking that fine line of understanding like, what's the different ways that men and women parse the world without spilling into the lunacy of people just saying revoke the 19th amendment?

• 11:18Speaker 03

  The Clancy trial. So, in Massachusetts, there is a woman named Lindsay Clancy and she was a mother of three. And there is, there's currently, she is on trial for the murder of her children. And so, part of her defense is that she was psychotic, and we'll explain what that means. And so, therefore is not responsible for the death of her children. And why am I talking about it? Because it's not just the trial. So, we're going to start off by talking a little bit about the trial, going over some of the documents. But what's really interesting is like, the internet phenomenon this has become.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  And the internet phenomenon this has become is getting like, really weird. Like, so I want to just show you guys stuff like this. So, you're really breaking up with me over a fucking opinion? I'm not breaking up with you over an opinion. I'm breaking up with you because that opinion showed me a fundamental difference in our values. I can have compassion for someone struggling mentally without excusing what happened to those children. If I'm choosing someone to potentially be the mother of my kids, I need to trust their judgment completely, especially when it comes to protecting them. What you said created a doubt in me that I can't ignore or gamble my future children on. So, like, this has gotten to the point where like, it's starting to impact all kinds of things. And, and this is something that, that even has, has crossed my plate.

• 12:45Speaker 03

  So, two days ago, my wife was like, hey, I don't think you're taking this Lindsay Clancy thing seriously enough. And I was like, really surprised by that. So, there's something going on here where this is not just the case. The rabid interest in the Lindsay Clancy case is uncovering so many things about what is going on with us as a society.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  I think he's so right about this. This is the thing that I find interesting far more than the ins and outs of the trial, which to me are pretty irrelevant. What's interesting about this is the, we are going through a rewriting of what our foundational beliefs are as a society. And the populist moment is really making it clear that we do not share a set of values. Technology has started pulling men and women apart. And so, this is becoming a fundamental renegotiation of values between men and women. I think this has been going on for a while because of the divergent paths men and women have been taking over the last, I don't know, call it 15 years, since social media's really started kicking off.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  And so, now, it's like, the Lindsay Clancy thing, and this isn't the only thing, we've seen several things like this, but Lindsay Clancy is really making it clear that we're living in these wildly different frames of reference. And ultimately, for the health of our society, we have to begin to reconcile some of these differences. These are going to be very hard conversations to have. People are going to feel extremely strongly, like we just heard in that, that guy breaking up with his girlfriend or fiance or whatever.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  People are going to feel really strongly. And like I was saying a minute ago, I've even found this tension in my own marriage where my wife was listening in, I'm so curious to know if she's listening right now, but my wife was listening in to me talking about this before and she thought that Drew and I had made a joke that was inappropriate and she was not happy about it. And I think she was actually in chat saying, yo, I think this is super inappropriate. And so, she has been very honest and open with me about that. And I said, whoa, we're going to need to talk about this because I think you and I see this very differently. And so, that began some conversations that have, I would say, we have certainly begun to outline each other's positions and that we understand each other better, but I would not say that we're very close to each other in terms of, oh, this is how we see the situation.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Now, in my wife's defense, she's more literal on the trial itself. So, what information came out? Was she actually having a psychotic break? That kind of thing. Whereas I'm saying, it doesn't matter whether she actually had a psychotic break or not. I feel that this is about personal responsibility and that you create a dangerous society when you're like, oh, but God, you know, it really was mental illness and we just got to get him better and then we can let him back out on the street. I'm saying, that isn't a winning strategy. And if somebody has done the crime, they're going to need to do the time. All right. So, yeah, this, these issues must be reconciled.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  And what is wrong with us as a society? And so, this is going to be like, not a simple take. There's a really good chance that no matter what you believe, whether you believe she's guilty, whether you believe she's compassion, deserves compassion, whether you believe this guy is justified in breaking up with her, whether you believe that a woman is justified with breaking up with her male partner because they're not supportive enough of Lindsay Clancy, like, whatever you believe, there's a decent chance I'm going to piss you off. So, I'll give you guys just a simple example. So, one of the things that's going on is that a lot of women on social media believe that Lindsay Clancy is basically being framed by her husband.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Okay, hold on. This is a good time. I don't know how easy it's going to be. It might be impossible because I think I'm the one that would have to do it. But there's another video where a woman goes on TikTok, I think it's in today's sheet, and she goes on TikTok and she's like, there's no way we can all be wrong, right?

• 16:39Speaker 04

  So, sorry, collectively, as a society, we cannot have all been gaslit that Lindsay didn't do it. Like, we are all on the same page that she didn't do it, but then I'm seeing all of these videos and it's like, no, her lawyer filed this motion. And so, he's basically saying, yeah, like, she's pleading guilty, but you know, the whole insanity thing. And I just know, like, all of us cannot be wrong. All of us cannot have just been gaslit and made up this conspiracy that Patrick did it. We all can't be wrong.

• 17:22Speaker 04

  So, that's why I'm just a little confused.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Wow, baby cries in the background, wow.

• 17:26Speaker 04

  And if we all are wrong.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  That's part of the whole terrifying thing about this.

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• 20:53Speaker 00

  Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action. Have you seen the videos of like women putting their babies fake, they're dolls? But they'll like start the video with a real baby and then they'll open the dishwasher and throw a doll in as if it's their real baby. And it's like, yo, uh, that's one of those like, I'm all for gallows humor, but god damn. That, that gets pretty wild.

• 21:14Speaker 05

  That's my type of funny.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  So that's where I'm just a little confused. And if we all are wrong and we are just falling fault of conspiracy, then that, that's quite scary. Like that is scary because I fully, I reported a jury duty every single day. You know, we were taking our notes, we are comparing notes, we are all on the same page.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  The consensus-driven thing is scary. This is why I'm always forcing myself to seek disconfirming evidence. And I, when I'm talking to entrepreneurs or anybody just in life, man, like find the smartest people who disagree with you, figure out why they disagree with you. Because we all have a frame of reference, we are blind to many things. And if we don't have some formal system that we use in our life to figure out what's going on, then we derail very quickly. My wife, so I made a joke one time to my wife and I said, boy, do I just wish you would do what I say. And she burst into laughter and she's like, no, you don't. The very thing that you value in me is that I will always tell you what I think is true. And I was like, that is so fucking true.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  I, all of us should covet desperately to find out what we have wrong because being right has so much utility. So when I hear this, and listen, I do not believe that the way that this woman parses the world is representative of all women, but it's representative of a thing humans are likely to do, which is that if everyone around me believes this, then I probably should believe it too. They've done these studies, man. This is why I don't trust myself. They've done studies where they bring people into a room where everyone's an actor except that one person. And the person running the study will be like, hey, guys, really simple starter thing. They've got three lines up on the board and one of the lines is obviously longer than the other ones.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  And they go, um, which of these lines are, is longer or are they all the same length? And everybody goes, they're the same length, one after another, same, same, same, same, same, same, same. Gets to the person who is the only person who's not an actor and they're like, yeah, it's the same. And then after, when it's revealed, those were all actors. Why did you say that the lines were the same? They were like, yeah, you know, I thought that they were different, but it just felt so weird to go against the group. It's like, yo, if humans have that gear, this is one of the reasons why I say an individual human is one thing. A group of humans is a totally different creature and we all have to be cognizant of that. So the fact that she's like, well, we all took notes, we compared notes, we all came to the same conclusion. We're not being gaslit, right? You're being gaslit by yourself. The problems that most of us create, we create for ourselves.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Either because we have some massive desire to fit in or we're just not taking the time to be self-aware. We don't have a mechanism that goes, hmm, I'm prone to fooling myself. So I'm going to need some system here where I check myself. Yeah, wild. All right, we can go back to the guy. She has said the thing.

• 24:12Speaker 05

  One calibrating question. What is Tom's prescription here? Is he upset at the sentencing laws, the existence of the insanity plea? The jury process for a case like this, what needs to be corrected?

• 24:21Speaker 00

  So for me, this is very simple. Get rid of the insanity plea. If somebody did the crime, then they've got to do the time. Now, I would also like to see prison reform. That would be amazing, but even in the absence of prison reform, I would want to see people go to prison. So let's say that you have undiagnosed schizophrenia and you go and kill somebody. You're going to prison. And while in prison, I would love to see you get treated for schizophrenia. And I would love to see there be options for you to find some meaningful way to have meaning and purpose within prison. Cause I think that's the only way to keep these things from just becoming absolute hellholes unto themselves. But I'm not letting you out of prison until you've served your time.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  And her husband is really the guilty party. She's taking the fall for it. He divorced her a few months after this happened. And so there's like this whole element, what I realized is like, a lot of these people are operating on like women's intuition.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Really fast, I want to talk about women's intuition. This was something that I saw with, um, what's her face? Candace Owens, where she would present something as like, I feel it. And the way that I know it's true is because I feel it. Now, this is something that some subset of women have, definitely not ubiquitous, but some subset of women have a belief that because I intuit it, it must be real. And I would say that you have to understand what is intuition from a biological standpoint. You could call like when you see a stick out of the corner of your eye and you think it's a snake and you jump back, that that's a form of evolutionarily placed intuition that is literally baked into our DNA. Fine.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  But for the most part, what intuition is, is a well-trained mind over the course of a lot of experience. So we put ourselves in situations where we didn't know to be afraid of something and then bad thing happened. And that gets baked into our minds. It's possible that that happens more strongly in women, maybe, I don't know. I don't know if there are studies that look at that, but it's a biological mechanism. So if your intuition is trained poorly, then you're going to have bad intuition. And trusting your intuition will lead you to a terrible fucking place. Because it isn't just what happened to you, it's what you learn about what happened to you. So we've got to be very, very, very careful about going, well, I intuit it, therefore it must be real.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Because first of all, uh, that isn't true. Second, it's just being trained. You can retrain it, you can push it in a new direction, or it could have been trained poorly. So beware of an over-reliance. Be completely opposed to thinking that because you feel something, that that feeling indicates accuracy or utility, because it often does not.

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Does a psychiatrist, this too, I know it sounds weird, believe my female patients. And I'm not trying to be like a champion of feminism here. I'm just saying, like, when a patient comes into my office, my approach is, you know what? If a patient says something, let me at least see if it's true, instead of assuming it's not true.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  But there's a lesson learned, um, in the book called Creativity, Inc. by Ed Catmull, who was the founder of Pixar. And he said, whenever you're working in a creative endeavor and you show it to somebody and they tell you, oh, man, this part is really terrible and this is what you should do to fix it. He said, always trust them when they say there's a problem, but don't trust what they say the solution is. And I think that's a good, uh, rule of thumb for a doctor is if somebody's telling you they're in pain or there's some problem, uh, don't go, it's all in your head. That, that would be a stupid impulse, no matter who the person is. But when they tell you what the solution is, they may be completely taking you in the wrong direction.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  So believe them when they say there's a problem, but you're going to have to get to a cause and effect diagnosis as to what's really going on.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Evidence that.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  So here's where I piss everybody off. But women's intuition is not significantly superior to men's intuition. But there are some features. What women's intuition, what women are better at is like reading facial emotions. Okay, but if men, if it matters to men, we, we are basically in the same ballpark.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  But just so you know, that's not intuition. That's actually picking up on cues. So very different than I have an intuition. And so this is the kind of thing I see people do all the time. They have an emotion, they never pull into their cognitive brain. And so they never pull that forward to say, okay, I'm actually gonna take this from the high bandwidth emotion. Emotions are, from an evolutionary perspective, they're very rapid and they can process a lot of data all at once. Whereas when you force something through the narrow band of cognition, where I'm bringing this into my conscious awareness, and now I'm trying to put words to it, that's a far slower process. And when you don't take the time to do that, this is how people can just be completely devoid of self-awareness.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  This is how somebody can run with an emotion that's completely destroying their life, but it feels so real, they feel like they have to act in accordance with it. I think in the fullness of time, this is largely what we're gonna see from Candace Owens. Anytime where it's like, I feel it, and therefore it must be true. It's like, yeah, sometimes you might actually be interpreting that information correctly at an emotional level. But if you're not able to pull it forward and make it make contact with cause and effect, then it may just be a mistrained intuition.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Women are able to detect discongruity. This is kind of my clinical take. So what I understand women's intuition to be is they can tell that something is off, but it doesn't tell them necessarily what the truth is. That's how I understand it, based on my experience. So when, when, when I have a female patient and they tell me, hey, I think something bad is gonna happen. Like, I think it's really worth digging into it because the conclusion that their mind jumps to is not necessarily correct, but the suspicion that their mind has absolutely is based on something.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  That makes sense to me.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  That's the, what I, the assumption that I operate under. Does that make sense? And that nuance, I think, is completely lost on social media. What fascinates me as a psychiatrist is like, hold on a second. So she's being tried by the state of Massachusetts for murder. So this is the government against Lindsay Clancy. And they're saying she murdered her children. Her defense is not that she did not kill her children. Her defense is that she was psychotic when it happened. There's a second lawsuit, which is she and her ex-husband, on behalf of their children, are suing all manner of psychiatric providers. It's a civil lawsuit that says, you guys did not take care of me appropriately, that's

• 30:58Speaker 03

  why my kids died, it's your fault that this happened. So what's really interesting to me about this is like, even the defense does not dispute that she killed her children, sort of. And there's even on, on the rec-

• 31:13Speaker 00

  By the way, there's one thing that I should address. It doesn't, it's not tied to what he's saying right now, but that in all of this needs to be addressed. The part of the reason that I'm opposed to people being put in mental hospitals, because I could be convinced that if mental hospitals acted like prisons, in that once you're in, you're in for a set amount of time based on the crime that you committed, is that right now, the way that laws work is, you can't hold somebody in a mental institution if they don't meet the qualifications of being psychotic, I think. There's, there's a very specific word they use. And that's where the problem lies. This is how somebody can end up being in for a crime that should have been, let's say, three consecutive life sentences.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  And instead of getting that, they are only in as long as they're considered actively harmed to themselves or others, based on human evaluations. And so then somebody is in for a ridiculously short amount of time, given the crime that they committed, and they get back out on the street, and as we said earlier, can then go back to committing crimes. And when you're in a position where people are just like, I feel so bad that this person's locked up, like, you know, they were, they, they weren't criminally liable, this is just bad luck of genetics, or the drugs that they were taking, or whatever, and so I want to get them back out on the street, they seem to be doing fine. And that could be either just not true, and they're completely faking you out, or it could be that whatever led them to get into that position again, sorry, the first time,

• 32:40Speaker 00

  they get into that position again, once they get back on the outside. And so, yes, in, in a hospital setting, they're stable and controlled, and everything's fine, you've got their medication tightly tuned and all of that, you put them back out on the street, they stop taking their medication again, or they get overwhelmed, or stressed, or whatever, and so they find themselves right back in the same situation. And so now, we find them committing that same crime again. So that is, to me, the line. We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere. Let's talk about how much you're paying to stay safe online. Count it up. A VPN, a password manager, something to block ads and trackers? A service to scrub your data off of broker lists?

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• 35:44Speaker 00

  Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action. We either say this crime is worth that amount of time, or it's not. Whether they go into a hospital for that amount of time, or they go into a prison for that amount of time, that one I'm very open to debate on. But getting them off the street is the part that I'm just like, you gotta get them off.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  She has confessed to killing, killing her children. And yet, this is still happening, right? A lot of people believe this. Now, this is what's gonna piss everybody off. So if you're someone who believes this, and I make this statement, you're already like, oh my God, Dr. K, you're one of them, you're one of the people who doesn't understand. You're one of the enemy. And then on the flip side, there's gonna be a lot of people that are like, duh, bro. Like, duh, like, she confessed to killing. I don't understand how people can believe that this is not factually correct. Like, what on earth is going on? How is this guy, like, what is going on? And this, this is where, this is where I get curious. How does someone get from, the, the person herself claims, or does not dispute that

• 36:44Speaker 03

  she killed her children, to she's being framed? And this is where I'm gonna piss everybody off, because this is exactly what's wrong with the world today. We have a world today where so many people are behaving so irrationally. And what we tend to do is make no attempt to understand. What we do is blame. What we do is call them stupid. And if you're like, haha, yeah, like, all those stupid people, all those stupid women on the internet, who are like, think that it's a conspiracy, they're like, they're all dumb. No, this is, this is my point. I want y'all to understand this. This is happening across the globe, to all manner of people. This is just one pimple that is like popping.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  Now, I don't know what, what he's gonna say, but I will say that I think a big part of the problem is the algorithmic madness that people find themselves getting into. The idea that we're gaslighting ourselves, I think, is a very important idea. If your feed isn't full of people that agree with you and think that you're dumb, or the ideas that you agree with, they agree with, and then other people who just disagree violently with those ideas, you're only getting one take on all of this. And people end up spiraling down these like crazy rabbit holes of just getting everything re-echoed back to them. Like, one thing I do in the comments on X is, I'll read the first couple, they almost always agree with my position, because the algorithm knows who I am, and then I'll scroll down, down, down, down, down, down, down, to try to find the comments that don't agree

• 38:10Speaker 00

  with what I think, so that I can get the both sides of what, hopefully, smart people are saying about this issue. But you have to like, construct that in your life, it's not gonna happen by accident.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  The reason that there is so much conflict in the world, if you ask me, Dr. K, what is the one thing, if you had to pick one thing? That is the root of the world's problems today. And I don't mean a person's problem, I mean the world's problems. Why is there so much strife? Why is there so much war? Why is there so much political stuff? Why is there a gender divide? Like, what is going on? We have birth rates that are low. Like, everyone, everything's getting worse. Why? And it's one simple thing. Because we are no longer living in the same reality.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Listen, that's a problem. That's not your big problem. Your big problem is that you, if I were gonna try to sum up everything going wrong in the globe right now, it would be that things have been going well for too long. Things have, we have completely lost sight of the fact that you have to build a structure that creates that stability. And that that stability and that prosperity is not a law of nature. And so, everybody has just gone completely mad because they're not able, they don't think there's a reason to negotiate from first principles. And the very reason that we can live in alternate realities, which is a huge problem, but the very reason that we can live in alternate realities is because the real reality does

• 39:39Speaker 00

  not slap us around. Because things have been so good and so prosperous for so long that we're, we are not aware of how dangerous the world that we live in is. We are not aware of how hard this kind of prosperity has been to create. And so, downstream of that, you get this thing where we can live in alternate, algorithmically manufactured universes and have our own truths and all that bullshit. But the thing that's actually generating it ironically is that we've been successful for so long and we don't teach people how difficult these things are.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  And I've been following this trial on Reddit. And my wife has been following this trial. And she's been following it on Instagram. And the interesting thing is that our perceptions of the trial are completely different. And the more that a human being gets data, like, the more that they see something, and this is what algorithms are doing, I think like literally, algorithms are destroying society. Because if I spend eight hours a day in front of a screen, and the platform is like, okay, we're gonna give you what you like. Like, this is not a problem. Right now, the Dota 2 International is going on, so my feed is full of Dota 2 International stuff, which I love. Like, that's why I use the platform, right? Like, I wanna hear what's going on, what's going on in the interview, who won, who lost, right?

• 40:57Speaker 03

  So this is the way the internet, like, the whole purpose of the internet is that when you use it, it shows you things that you're interested in. But somehow, we have gotten so good at this that we have now become distorted from reality. So, Lindsay Clancy's fans have raised over 700,000 for her after she killed her three children.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  That's wild.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  While on a cocktail of prescribed psychiatric drugs. She's about to be jailed for, for life for something her husband did.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  All right, so the one thing that I, I need to address is this idea of the psychotic drugs. Okay, so, hopefully, I've already explained why it is an absolutely terrible argument, excuse me, a terrible argument to make that, you know, listen, postpartum depression is so hormonally intensive that basically, women aren't accountable for their behavior. You don't, women, you don't want that. Okay, now, getting people to understand, yo, this is like a brutal thing that you're going through, Lisa and I, I feel like we are going through perimenopause together. And so, it's something that we talk a lot about, but my wife, I will just give a mountain of credit to, she's not looking for a pass. She's like, listen, I've gotta navigate through this, it's hard, and I certainly appreciate

• 42:09Speaker 00

  any help and understanding that you can give me, but this is my thing to go through. And it's difficult, and here are the ways that I'd like to alter things or change things, whatever, to mitigate some of the downsides of this. But she's not like, listen, I can just act like crazy and you just have to fucking deal with it. So, that to me is exactly how you go through that. You say, hey, listen, men and women have their own burdens to carry, and you gotta deal with it. That, that just, God saw fit to make it that way. So, we each have to deal with that. But we certainly don't go, like, men get exactly zero sympathy for me if they go and assault somebody because their testosterone levels are high. If a man is like, oh, bruh, I had to rape her, do you know how high my testosterone levels are?

• 42:51Speaker 00

  I'd be like, get the fuck out of my face, straight to jail, fuck you, zero. Like, I don't give a shit. You can have the most psychotically elevated testosterone levels in the universe, and that would be just a non-issue for me. Sorry, you did the crime, you're going to jail. So, that to me is how we should be parsing that side. Now, the psychotic drug side, if somebody kidnapped her, injected her against her will, it snapped her psychotic and then she went and did something, I would feel very differently about this. Us having to navigate the world of prescription drugs and things like that, I am very empathetic. It's hard for any of us. It is a thrilling landscape because there are things that are possible to be saved from that historically, we would not have been saved from, we would have just died.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  And at the same time, we can't outsource our care to somebody blindly. We've gotta build an understanding of what the drugs are that we're being asked to take, what their interactions could be. And I understand, people don't have the time, they don't wanna think through those things, but then you're gonna have to have a default response to, I'm not going to take it, or, hey, cool, while I go through this, I need to be away from my kids, or whatever. But you've gotta build in the mechanisms. I think we have to expect that of everybody, to build in the mechanisms where if they know they're at risk to themselves, they're at risk to their kids, then you've gotta create the separation. You can't put yourself in that kind of situation. But she was not kidnapped, she did not get injected against her will.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  This is somebody that took medication, or didn't, there's some debate around whether she was taking them or not, how many were prescribed versus how many she actually took. To me, none of that matters. What matters is that this is a woman that needs to be treated on her own recognizance, that we are all responsible for our own lives. And if we show that we cannot be responsible for our own lives, there are huge consequences to that that need to be dealt with. And that, now, we're back to the argument of like literally restructuring your society around who can vote and all that kind of shit, not the argument that I wanna be having. What I wanna say is that people need personal responsibility.

• 44:59Speaker 05

  All right, there's one question.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  I think we got from him what we're gonna get, but...

• 45:04Speaker 05

  One question and shout out, by the way, to... Healthy Gamer, we appreciate you.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Our man, former guest of the show.

• 45:09Speaker 05

  Do you think that men are as emotional as women and we just react to it in different ways? Or do you think there's like...

• 45:14Speaker 00

  No, I really do think that our, the way that our hormones play out, or the way that our biology is wired, men do tend to be more stoic. I think most people will give that. When men break bad, they break bad in a different way. They are violent, they are directly, they go on the direct assault. So, they're not gonna go behind the scenes typically, it's just gonna be two guys punching each other in the face. But here's a wild stat. Did you know that female rulers, I think specifically monarchs, are more likely to go to war than males? Wild, interesting. So, anyway, lot to parse out there.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  But I think men and women are different. I think to think of one of us as being, you know, erratic and unstable would be a mistake. I think that we, we engage with the world in a different way because from an evolutionary standpoint, we have different purposes. So, men are, I think, on average, more stoic. Women are, on average, they have a broader range of emotion. But I don't think that, this is just me going off of my experience with the women in my life, they are not like unable to see past like, oh, I have a higher fluctuation in my, it's not just estrogen, but the, the complex movement of my hormones is different and

• 46:43Speaker 00

  therefore, it's likely to give me a larger amplitude of emotion, but that doesn't mean that I just abdicate my responsibility to navigate this well. So, just like, a man might be more prone to being violent, but you can't be violent with your kids, you can't be violent with your wife, like, maybe you can go to the MMA gym and be as violent as you want, or you can be as aggressive in the workplace as you want, but you can't aim that at somebody else. And so, having, if, if I used my levels of aggression as a, I get a out of jail card, or get out of jail pass, to be as aggressive and abusive verbally with my wife or physically as I wanna be, that'd be fucking psychotic. So, they're different, they balance each other out, they each have their positives, they each have their negatives.

• 47:27Speaker 00

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