Why Self-Help Isn’t Working - And What to Do Instead | Mark Manson (Fan Fav)

This is a fan fav episode. Why are most people struggling to get ahead? They’re struggling to get ahead in their career, their business, their relationships, and even in the battle they have every day with themselves. If you’re like most, you turn to the most popular books, courses, and communities that seem promising. You get pumped and feel like a freaking rockstar in the middle of it all, but the second you’re back alone with yourself nothing f*cking changes! That is what we call spiritual entertainment. The problem isn’t getting the information you need or access to better resources, the problem is that you’re not effectively implementing the ideas you hear because your behavior never changes. What do you do when self-help isn’t changing a damn thing in your life? Mark Manson, bestselling author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck and the man that helped write Will Smith’s memoir, Will has gone from struggling blogger to thought leader in self-help. This episode is exactly what you need to stop being your own victim of self-help failures. Mark’s 3 universal principles will help you break the spiritual entertainment cycle, stop feeling bad about where you are and start embracing the kind of action and validation that will actually get results. QUOTES: “How do we leverage the social pressure of the internet in a positive way instead of the negative way?” “Responsibility is so important because it empowers you psychologically.” “Many people may own my past but only I own my future. I need to explicitly take responsibility in making sure it’s a good future.” “You don’t stop feeling bad. You feel bad, you find a way to respond well despite feeling bad.” Follow Mark Manson: Website: ⁠https://markmanson.net/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson⁠ Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/Markmansonnet/⁠ Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson/⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 1:08Speaker 01

  What up, guys? I'm super excited to be joined by the former blogger turned three-time number one New York Times bestselling author, Mark Manson. Mark made the leap from struggling blogger giving men relationship advice to becoming a thought leader in the self-help space, with a twist, by sharing the subtle art of not giving a fuck with millions of people around the world. Mark joins me in this episode to wrestle with the idea of self-help and why the books, the videos, and the conferences aren't actually changing many people's lives. We talk about the problem people struggle with the most: implementation. It's easy to get fired up, but it's super hard to stay fired up for two days, two weeks, or even two months, let alone two years, two decades.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Mark shares three universal principles that will help you avoid spiritual entertainment and actually start changing your life. And we reveal what you should be doing to make sure the five ideas and people you spend the most time with are actually getting you the results you need. If you got one nugget of wisdom you can implement from this episode, please, my friends, leave a review. It's the best way to support the podcast so we can help other people just like you reach their full potential and become legendary. I'm Tom Bilyeu, and welcome to Impact Theory. You have your finger on something that I am haunted by, which is that people are lost, they're scared in life, they've got a negative voice running on repeat.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  When they get into self-help, they make no lasting changes whatsoever. What's the answer to that? And how does the subtle art of not giving a fuck play into all this?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Starting with the easy questions, I see.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  I hope not.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Well, you know, a question that I've been, I've been in this industry for 15 years now. And I've written thousands of pages worth of content. I've recorded tons of videos, done hundreds and hundreds of interviews like this. So, most of my careers, I've existed in the theory. And I did a little bit of coaching early in my career. But I've kind of hit this point where, you know, you can only talk about anxiety so many times before you just start repeating yourself. And so I've kind of come back to this question of implementation. Like, why do people read 12 books and then not change any of their behaviors? Why do we watch, you know, 20 YouTube videos

• 3:32Speaker 02

  and understand exactly what the perfect morning routine should be? And then we sleep till 9:30, you know? So I've been trying to think of clearly, like, whatever, the information's not the problem. There's something about the format that nobody has solved yet. I think really the only intervention that kind of consistently achieves behavioral change is a good therapist over many years. Like, that has a high hit rate. Pretty much everything else, like, you're batting 10%, 20%.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  What is it about therapy you think that works?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  I think it's the intensity and consistency of it. And I also just think it's, you know... You're paying a hundred bucks a session. There's only so many weeks you can show up and have the therapist basically tell you the same thing until you're like, okay, I should probably go do that. Whereas like you don't have a book, you're, people aren't reading the same book week after week. They're not watching the same video week after week. Or I, I think maybe just having somebody in the room, like telling it to them has more, more impact in some way. So to back up a little bit, the problem with therapy is it's not scalable. It's expensive. It's, it, there's limited, limited accessibility to, to a large percentage of the population. It, there's a bunch of credentials.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  You gotta go to school for years to become an accredited therapist. So I've, I've been thinking about like, what is a way? How do we solve the implementation problem? How do we make it easier for people to implement behavioral change? Whether it's through apps, whether it's through, you know, video courses, you know, whatever. That's kind of like become the problem I'm asking myself, I'm like zeroing in on at this stage of my career.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  How did you change? So you've obviously had a pretty dramatic change for anybody that's read your book or seen the Now movie.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Very impressive, man, I gotta tell you.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  How did you change? Was it therapy?

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Therapy was helpful. So I did therapy in my twenties for a few years and that was helpful. I think one thing that I'm particularly good at is I'm very good at like changing my mind about things. Like, I don't get too attached to aspects of my identity. Like it doesn't, I don't feel committed to like, oh, this is how people see me, so I need to behave that way.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  How the hell did you pull that off?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm, I'm like, we could, we could dig into that, probably a combination of nature and nurture, but.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I think I've been good throughout my life of like being willing to look at myself and be like, whoa, maybe I'm not an author. Maybe I just like had a good book.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Let me go do this other thing now.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Are you doing that? Is that a real conversation?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Interesting. Given how many books you sold, I think people are gonna be shocked to hear that.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Million, approaching 20 million.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you add them all up, yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that seems like a fair thing to do.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm very proud of that and it's a very, obviously a very important part of my life, but I don't necessarily see that as who I am, right?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Interesting. What do you see as who you are or do you avoid that kind of statement?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  I avoid that statement.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Interesting. So that you don't get trapped?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Yes. And then I like to think of it as like, I'm an author right now. And if at one day it stops being useful being an author, I will stop being an author. Right? I think there's other identities or labels that I have adopted a little bit more permanently, like I'm a husband, or I'm a friend, or I'm a son. Like those are labels that I don't see myself relinquishing anytime soon, but I think if I have a talent, personally, I think it's just the ability to kind of like swap labels within my identity and I think being able to observe myself do that is what kind of allowed me to write well about these topics.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  That's really fascinating to me because I, so I think a lot about how do you get people to actually make the change?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And at first I'm just telling people, okay, here's what you do. There's this thing, I think one of the big things is people have, it's twofold. They have an inability to build desire, so they just don't want anything in their life, not badly enough to keep pushing through. And then they don't know how to use identity statements to hold themselves accountable.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  And as I would teach people, okay, let me, I'm just gonna walk you through what I do. I can't swear that it's gonna work, but this is what I actually did and so I know it worked at least once.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  And the more I would tell people and tell people and tell people and see many people tread water and not be able to make that progress, I was like, am I just hypermalleable?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  In that, is this my superpower? Is there something in the way to your point about is, I don't know if it's nature, nurture, a combination, whatever, but I find it very easy to point myself at something new, run a process.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  And that process then anchors me emotionally. So for instance, when I was at Quest, everybody just assumed I was going to be doing the nutrition thing for the rest of my life.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Forever, yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, I've always wanted to do the film thing. But even when I went from film to then focusing on nutrition, or entrepreneurship is the more honest answer, that was pretty easy for me to do and say, okay, I'm going to tie something I care deeply about to this thing because it needs to be something bigger than myself. I need to have real sense of like, I'm contributing to the group to make this stick. But then when I did it again, as I left Quest into Impact Theory and was like, okay, this is now a process. I know how to run this. I have to take people that I care about deeply, associate them with the mission of building this thing, and then I'll be able to push through the difficulties. So you're not tapping out and just saying, well, I'm a hyper responder.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Everybody else can, you know, go deal with it for themselves. You're trying to crack that nut. What do you, what do you think is the thread that you're going to pull on?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  It's a combination of a couple of things. And one part of that you alluded to, which is the desire. You know, I do think there are ways to manipulate our level of desire or our level of motivation. I guess kind of the emotional aspect of like, feeling fired up about something. I think most people, it's not hard for them to get fired up about something for a few days. It's once you get to like, week two, that most people tap out. And so I think there's a lot of, I think people underestimate how influenced we are by our surroundings and our environment. And I think there are, to make those, some of those early changes sustainable, you have

• 10:41Speaker 02

  to do a lot of interventions within your environment, whether that is, you know, throwing all the junk food out of your fridge.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Making it easier to get out of bed in the morning, putting the alarm clock on the other side of the room, or surrounding yourself with the right people that will help, that will make it easier to implement the desired change, right? Like fundamentally, we are, most of our psychology is driven, most of our happiness is driven by our relationships and where the reasons that we are receiving social validation. And so if you are receiving social validation from people for bad behaviors, then one of the most effective things you can do is surround yourself with people who are going to validate you for better behaviors. Like one thing I've been saying a lot that's been resonating with people is that, you know, there's all this talk about like, I wish I didn't care what people think, or

• 11:35Speaker 02

  I wish I didn't, didn't need validation from others, but that's impossible. Like we're social creatures, we're always going to need validation. Instead of trying to not be validated by others, we should be validated by better people and for better reasons. So if the validation that you find yourself seeking from others is hurting you, then you need to find people that, that social validation is going to help you. You know, and the most banal cliche example is like joining a gym, right? Like join, join, go join a CrossFit class or something. It's like what CrossFit has done that is so genius is that they have found a way to leverage social validation into exercise.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  So it's like people who have hated exercise their entire life, suddenly they're in an environment where a bunch of really nice, encouraging people are rewarding them for doing hard things. And I think that is probably at like the base level, like the most fundamental way to kind of rewire what you care about or what you want in your life is to Align yourself with social groups that are going to reward you for wanting those things.

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• 15:09Speaker 01

  Dude, I think that's so often missed. So I still do get asked by parents a lot. You know, my kids are really headed down the wrong path. How do I get them to turn around? And I mean, sometimes it's, you know, really heavy shit, drugs, whatever. And setting aside like the addiction aspect for a second. My answer is always, there's only one path I know of that is as close to guaranteed to work as humanly possible. And that is to kidnap them, take them to a deserted island, full of people that they want to earn the respect of.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  And if you drop them into a group where they can't escape because it's gonna suck. And they're not gonna have anywhere to turn other than these people to get their validation, to get their respect. And if they want their respect, no matter how crazy or difficult the thing is that they ask them to do, they will do it.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And that like, just knowing what I know about human psychology and the way that the human animal moves as a social creature. Like, they are going to embed themselves in that group and adhere to the norms of that group. They have to be very thoughtful about what group you embed them in because they probably ended up doing the drugs or whatever. Because they got embedded in a group of people that were doing dumb shit and they wanted their respect.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  And it goes back to the song, "I took a pill in Ibiza," you know, so Avicii would think I was cool. It's like, we do a lot of dumb things so that people will think that we're cool. But to your point, you can flip that around, but it becomes hard to cobble those people together.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Now, one thing that was really useful for me was books. So treating books as if they were those friends. So I know you've heard the quote, "You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with." I think you're the average of the five people and ideas you spend the most time with. So way better if you can get around a peer group that will reinforce, it would be a hundred times more impactful. But what do you think about the ability for books to give you the ideas that you can anchor yourself around?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, look, ideas are necessary, but they're not sufficient. It's, my buddy Derek Sivers has this great quote where he says like, "If intellectually understanding something was enough, we would all be billionaires with six packs." And it's, clearly it's not, you know? So you need the ideas, but the ideas only get you like halfway there. And, and I think with the internet...

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Ideas have been proliferating. You know, it used to be a lot of these ideas that you and I are discussing right now. You, 20 years ago, you had to be a professor at, in a psychology department doing research to know these things, or you had to pay a lot of money for a very expensive seminar to learn these things. These days, it's with social media and everything, like, these ideas are everywhere. They're extremely cheap and almost free. So it's like anybody who has any intellectual interest is going to collect and consume a lot of very good ideas pretty quickly.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  I think the power that hasn't been tapped into yet is using the internet, is solving the implementation side, which means solving the validation side, you know, and using the internet to kind of do what you were just describing of like, finding communities, finding that desert island group of like, okay, these are my people. We're together for this explicit reason. We want to improve ourselves in this way. We come from similar backgrounds, maybe have similar traumas or issues. You know, how do we organize that? How do we, how do we get people into the, how do we leverage the social pressure of

• 18:53Speaker 02

  the internet in a positive way instead of the negative way, which is how it's mostly been used up until now? That's kind of like where my brain is all the time now.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  That, to me, is largely a function of adopting a certain value system. Do you have, and I love asking, Pete, you're gonna try to squirm out of this. I'm gonna push you. Do you have like, as close to a universal subset, because it'll never be the totality, but a universal subset of values that if people adhere to these, it's going to move their life forward? I get it, most people won't be able to adhere to it, but is there like a small handful of things you're like, everybody should have these?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  I, so I've thought of, I'm not gonna squirm out of this, because I've thought about this. It is hard to say, obviously, it's hard to say anything universally, but if I had to say, to me, there's probably three universal principles that I think are just effective.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  For the entire human species. It's like just how we're wired. First one is radical responsibility. It's like taking ownership of everything that happens in your life. Even if it's not your fault, even if it's tragic, even if it's completely unfair and unjust, you still have to take responsibility for your response to it. And you have to take responsibility for how you're going to deal with that challenge or setback. Responsibility is so important because it empowers you psychologically. Like, as long as you're blaming something around you, and you might even be completely correct that it is their fault, but as long as you're like existing in that mind space,

• 20:35Speaker 02

  you are disempowering yourself from actually doing anything to improve your situation.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Guaranteed.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  It's, um, that's kind of, in my opinion, I call it the prime belief, but it's like, nothing else really works until people kind of like flip that switch of like, okay, I need to take responsibility for this, even though I've been screwed over.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  What do you say to people that push back that say, "I was screwed over"? Like, how can you even say this?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  It's fault and responsibility. So this is a very popular part of the subtle art book, but fault and responsibility are two different things. We tend to associate them, uh, because it's, you know, if you hit me with your car, you're at fault, and so now you owe me something. That's how our legal system works. That's how our social systems kind of work, but, so I think our natural instinct is to think, you know, well, I had a screwed up childhood because this person traumatized me, so somebody's got to come, come fix it for me, right? Like, somebody else messed up my life, so somebody else needs to come fix it.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  And that's like, again, you may not be, you may be factually correct, but nobody's showing up to fix your life for you. At a certain point, like, you have to decide, it doesn't matter what, what's happened, I'm the only person who owns my own future. Many people might own my past, but only I own my future. So I need to explicitly take responsibility for making sure it's a good future. Second principle is, uh...

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Radical acceptance. So everybody's, our, our natural inclination is to seek pleasurable experiences and emotions and avoid unpleasurable experiences and emotions. And I think the most psychologically healthy thing to do is to simply accept all emotional experiences regardless of whether they feel good or feel bad. By accept, do you just mean don't fight back? Don't resist, don't avoid, don't deny, don't suppress. And there are some people that suppress positive emotions as well, which is, you know, that's

• 22:57Speaker 02

  a whole tangent, but it does happen. But basically, you know, the, the, the picky elevator pitch for this is that there's, there's no such thing as a good or bad emotion. There's only good and bad responses to emotions. So you can, you can respond to joy in a very unhealthy way. In fact, a lot of people respond to joy in a very unhealthy. Really? Give me an example. I mean, you go get shitfaced with a bunch of your friends and, you know, wake up in a ditch somewhere. That's interesting. You know, a lot of people develop, when they feel good, they develop a very strong sense of entitlement. They feel they're, they're owed certain things because they're so happy or they feel so good.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  So that, that would be an unhealthy response to positive emotions. But yeah, it's, it's a lot of people, if there's kind of like a template for the average email that I get in my inbox, it's, it's basically this. It's a person says, you know, X, Y, and Z are happening in my life right now. I feel really bad. How do I stop feeling bad? And my response is always the same is you don't stop feeling bad. You feel bad and you find a way to respond well despite feeling bad. Like it's, if you try to stop feeling bad, not only are you going to distract yourself

• 24:22Speaker 02

  and, and get sucked down a bunch of rabbit holes, but you're actually probably going to make yourself feel worse, right? It's like.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  When you wish you didn't feel guilty, you just feel more guilty. When you get angry at yourself for being angry, you just get even more angry. Like, it's this spiral that starts happening.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  So radical responsibility, radical acceptance, and, uh, shit, I'm blanking on the third. I had a video about this.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I've been there so many times. In interviews, I have a rule: Never say the number. Like, give me three whatever, because then people are like, "Oh."

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Oh, shit.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Those are two. I think those are really huge. So responsibility, acceptance. I'll throw a third one into the mix. It's what I call the only belief that matters. It's a bit tough to wrangle this in the, as a value, but I would say progress becomes the value, and then this is the mechanism. Is progress literally it?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  That's hilarious. So it was, uh, I think I called it, like, radical growth, which is basically...

• 25:28Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Your motivation for everything you do should be to improve the lives of yourself and others.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  And, yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Tell me why and others. I think people will get why they should work on progress themselves, which is, to quote Tony Robbins, "A foundational pillar to human happiness", which I really agree with.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  But why others?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Because helping others gives our life meaning. You know, you can improve yourself all day, every day, but what I find is that people who are very, very absorbed in just improving their own lot in life, it starts to feel a little bit pointless at a certain point. You know, it comes back to that...

• 26:12Speaker 01

  It's so weird to me. That's so true.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  It is. It comes back to that fact that, like, we're fundamentally social animals. And so most of what we derive meaning and happiness from is our relationships. And so... People who improve themselves a lot, they eventually kind of arrive at this point. So, okay, I kind of divide improvement up into two, there's two categories. One is the bad to okay, and one is the okay to great. And I think this is something that gets lost in our industry a lot, is that there are a lot of people who are coming to us because they feel bad and they just want to feel okay. And then there are a lot of people who come to us because they feel okay, but they want to feel great.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  And those are two very different problems with, in many ways, they're two completely different conversations. And I think a lot of advice that is intended for the okay to great people is misinterpreted by the bad to okay and vice versa.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Very interesting.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  And so, I think if you are trying to go from bad to okay, then yeah, you should focus on yourself. Like, it's the old, like, put your oxygen mask on before you put on the mask of others. But if you're in the okay to great, then a very big component of that is like, okay, if my life's great, what's the point if I'm not sharing that with people? If I'm not using all of the amazing skills and tools and and wisdom that I've developed within myself to help bring other people along. And so, I think it ultimately, we need to, you know, a complete life is motivated by both.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  So, meaning and purpose, for sure, big part of it. What I have found is whenever somebody's striving to do something great, there is a moment where it gets difficult. You were saying, this is, I almost interrupted you because it's so terrifying, and I think you're so right, that most people give up at about week two. And if you think about the amazing things you've done in your life, and I think about the things I've done in my life, it's like, it's not even year two. It's like, you're 10 and you start to get somewhere? And the difference between the second week and the second decade is so terrifying.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  So I talk to people a lot about the success is a game of attrition. Most people just quit and they quit because they feel badly about themselves. At some point, something gut checks you about, are you good enough, smart enough, worthy, whatever? And people come up wanting, they've got the negative voice in their head, they don't have the right value system, whatever. But they implode because they've got the negative voice, it's running unchecked. They don't have a way to anchor themselves, which I would say the thing to anchor yourself around is improvement itself.

• 28:59Tom Bilyeu?

  Yep.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  It's like you're getting better. To your point, though, if you don't understand how to take a group of people that are real to you, that you love, and say, okay, the thing I'm gonna do is going to be of service to that. And I just saw a YouTube short today from Michio Kaku, of all people, it's really interesting. And I disagreed with him so violently. And he was saying that we made a mistake 50 years ago and we're still paying the price. And the mistake is that we think of the human mind as a computer, but the problem is the human mind has no operating system. And I was like, bitch, are you for real? Like, what are you talking about? Like, and he said very specifically that we don't have subroutines running in our minds. And I was like, what? Like, the human mind is shaped by evolution.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  And there are these screaming subroutines that are going to dictate your behavior. And one of them is you better serve the group.

• 29:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Yep.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  And whether you want that to be true or not, like, that is running from an evolutionary standpoint. You are propelled so hard to go be of service to people. And when I say it out loud, it sounds really cheesy, but I'm like, you're destined for misery. If you cannot figure out how to serve people and do something awesome for other people. And this is gonna be a weird example, but I think it will make sense. So I discovered anime in my 40s. And I went all in and for like 18, no, it wasn't 18 months, it's like eight months. I was watching so much, it was amazing. I was getting up really early in the morning and I was watching like an hour or two of anime a day, seven days a week. It was awesome. And I learned the art form and all of that. Once I had the art form locked in, I couldn't allow myself,

• 30:33Speaker 01

  like, I couldn't enjoy spending a bunch of time on it, even though I like it. Yeah. Because I was like, I no longer need to do that to serve other people. Now, I needed to master anime as an art form because for me to get a growth mindset out at scale, I believe I need to do it through entertainment. Anime has become the dominant form of entertainment for young people. So I was like, I really need to understand this. Yeah. But the second I was like, oh, I get the art form, like, all that passion and joy that I had and feeling like, yes, I'm moving myself forward. I'm making progress by sitting and watching, it went away. Yeah. And I was like, this is where most people live. Is they're in that post moment where they're doing something, but they don't know why they're doing it. It's not associated to helping people or moving themselves forward in any way. And so their whole life is one big, like, what am I doing?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's where, to me, and look, maybe some people, either they discover it when they're really young, or they have a natural penchant for something, and so they're already gravitating towards service. That wasn't my shtick. Like, I had to find that and realize, why am I running out of steam? And as soon as I was like, I'm not going to be fighting for myself. I'm going to fight for somebody else. Then I was like, fuck, I can go crazy. I've got way more endurance, way more energy. But I had to learn, oh, this is a conscious process of saying, okay, Quest isn't going to be about money. It's going to be about saving my mom and my sister, because they're morbidly obese and I want to help them. Yep. Impact Theory isn't going to be about building, you know, this big thing. It's going to be about these kids that I watch just get devoured by the inner cities.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And I was like, if I could sneak a growth mindset in when they're young, then I could actually do something. Yeah. Once I made that switch, then I was like, okay, I can fight forever. But without that, nada.

• 32:14Tom Bilyeu?

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• 32:57Tom Bilyeu?

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• 33:16Speaker 02

  It's funny, you and I were talking, we were talking about kids a little bit before we, we went live and we're both at that age where all of our friends either have little kids or are having kids, having second kids. And it's, it's interesting, so many of my friends, particularly fathers,

• 33:35Speaker 02

  that they had weight loss goals or work goals or, you know, wanted to do more networking or start a new business or whatever. And they had put it off for years and all of a sudden that kid shows up and it's like a switch goes off and then they actually develop, they actually make a bunch of those changes. And I think it's just, it's another example of what you're talking about is suddenly that reason shows up. And it's like, oh, I, you know, I couldn't lose weight for myself, but I don't want to be, you know, I want to be able to play with my kid. I don't want to be obese and, you know, running out of energy when my kid is running around, so I better lose some weight. And it's like, suddenly they do.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  I want to come back to really quick, though, the, the word and, you know,

• 34:22Speaker 02

  we said,

• 34:25Speaker 02

  we should all, everything should be motivated by improving lives of ourselves and others. I think the and is important because what I find is that generally, people are very, people are naturally very good at one or the other, but not both. So there are a lot of people who are naturally very good at helping others and focusing on others and worrying about others and taking care of others, but they're bad at taking care of themselves. And they neglect themselves, they sacrifice themselves too much. And then there are a lot of people who are very good at taking care of themselves or focusing on themselves, but they don't, they're bad at focusing on others or helping others. And I think Developing, being able to bridge those two things and like square what feels contradictory at times where it's like

• 35:10Speaker 02

  you're taking care of yourself and you're taking care of the group and you're taking care of your loved ones, like all at the same time. You're finding the win-win-win in each situation. I think that is the rare skill that, that we should all be aiming for.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  But it takes us, it takes everybody a long time to get there.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yes, and usually after a lot of years of suffering, what's going to be really interesting in a modern context is birth rates decline just precipitously and more and more people aren't having kids. I think about this a lot, so I've consciously decided not to have kids and I'm very aware of the fact that people come to me for advice and despite your protestations about not going on stage and telling people do this, this is exactly what I do and I feel supremely confident. Foolishly perhaps, but the one thing that I'm really careful about is you need to be real thoughtful if you're gonna not have kids.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And I think that the default answer for people should be to have kids. And it's a little bit like that, the fence thing, I forget what it's called. But it's like if you are wandering through a space and you come upon a fence, your default assumption should not be, I don't know why it's there, so let's tear it down.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  You should be like, I need to figure out why it's there before I tear it down.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  And that's how I feel about not having kids is, I literally just yesterday, so we have this thing, Impact Theory University, and a person asked me a question and I was, I was startled by the question. And it was like, I sit in bed and I stare at the ceiling. I don't want anything. I can't even work up the outrage when somebody wrongs me. I just, I don't care. And I was like, whoa.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  So I was like, hey, let me ask what may sound like a random question. Do you have kids? And they were like, no. And I was like, I am not surprised. So I was like, I don't know your age, I don't know if this is the right advice for you, but let's talk about Having kids is nature's way of going, I'm gonna give you meaning and purpose. I'm gonna give you something to fight for, something to die for, something ultimately to live for. And when people don't have that, like, for me, it was very conscious. I was like, I have to be very careful because kids are instant meaning and purpose.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  And I was like, I've found that through my work and it's deeply fulfilling. And I have an amazing relationship with my wife, it's deeply fulfilling. But I was like, we had a really honest conversation about, it's a very dangerous game. Because we now are going to forever have to find our meaning and purpose in something other than the sort of prepackaged, like, here you go. And so when I was answering this person's question, I was like, okay, you have to evaluate your own life. I said, I honestly feel nervous saying the following, but I actually believe that it's true for enough people that this is worth saying out loud, which is, you might want to consider having kids.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Find somebody that you love. Build a strong relationship first, I'm old fashioned like that. But like, do that, have kids. You may be startled to your example of how all of a sudden getting out of bed is easy because you're thinking about somebody else.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  And I think people ignore that to their own peril.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I think it's,

• 38:26Speaker 02

  we're, we've developed a culture, which, this is one of those things that in many ways it's great, but there's some negative side effects that I don't think have completely sunk in. But like, we've developed a culture where it is mainstream and widely okay to think about your own mental health first, to think about your own priorities, think about your own happiness, and figure out what kind of life you want to make. And obviously, that's a great thing in a vacuum. But to your point, the, there's a, there's kind of a hidden cost to that, which is, once you're given the freedom and the opportunity to think very deeply about,

• 39:10Speaker 02

  you're, who you're gonna be and how are you gonna be happy? And how are you gonna find meaning in the world?

• 39:17Speaker 02

  You...

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Suddenly, nothing is given to you. Suddenly, you have to kind of conjure it out of thin air. The way I described this in Subtle Art was like, you know, 100 years ago, life was objectively worse. Like, it sucked. Like, you're probably a subsistence farmer somewhere. You're probably in a war, or famine, or depression.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  But when you're living, but 100 years ago, it was always very, very clear what your purpose was, what the goal was, what the meaning in your life was. It was to survive. You know, don't get shot, don't get killed, and grow enough food to feed yourself and your family. And so, everybody woke up every day knowing exactly what they were gonna do that day, knowing exactly what had to be done, or else the consequence was potentially death. And so, I think a lot of these existential questions that we wrestle with in the 21st century of like, who am I? Why am I here? What am I supposed to be doing? Like, these are luxuries. These are very, very first-world problems. And in many ways,

• 40:25Speaker 02

  we've traded physical struggle for psychological struggle. Like, that is the hidden cost of our comforts and freedom that we've earned for ourselves over the past five, six generations.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  So fascinating. This is a very weird time of, ah, God, I think it was you that said it. It's like, when you've been just awash in abundance forever, there's a real distortion that happens. Are you watching The Last of Us?

• 40:55Speaker 02

  I've played the games, so I'm waiting.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Okay, so you know the story?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  It's very fascinating to watch the story of people who go from the normal life that we all know to you are one rabbit kill or deer kill away from dying, and like, what that does, and how it is clarifying, but also breaks down trust, because now there's so much competition between people for like, very scarce resources. But it's really clarifying. And when I think about where society is going, certainly here in much of the West, definitely in the US, it's like, it gets to be a very precarious tightrope when you don't have to think about other people. You can build a life where you're staying at home

• 41:43Speaker 01

  and you're supposedly just awash in opulence and everything is great and easy. But you have this profound sense of unease and something isn't right. And people don't really have a sense of how to cobble that together. You've mentioned it a couple of times already in this interview, but I want to put a point on. You say that people's, I think you said happiness, is most tied to their relationships.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  How do we do relationships well? Is it a bunch of people? Are there certain, like, you need romance, you need friendship, whatever?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Just, just more easy questions, I see.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  I like the softballs. I like softballs, Mark. Come on.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  I definitely don't think the answer is quantity. And I think that, well, I mean, actually, we have a lot of research showing that the answer to the relationship question is not quantity. Like, in fact, it seems that there's this thing called the Dunbar number, which shows that, you know, we actually seem, we struggle quite a bit to empathize beyond a certain amount of people. And in terms of close friendships, we seem to max out around five or six.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  So it's definitely quality over quantity. And, and I think not only is it quality over quantity, but quantity can actually distract from quality. I just moved here from New York. We were talking about that earlier. One of the, the constant struggles in New York City is that there's always so much going on and there's so many people that you can meet and hang out with that nobody actually ends up being satisfied with their social lives. Like, it ends up being this kind of constant churn of friends and acquaintances. And you might meet somebody and you really like them and you're like, man, we should hang out. We should get together. And eight months will go by before you see them again just because your, both of your schedules are so hectic and crazy

• 43:41Speaker 02

  and there's so much other stuff going on. So I, I do think quantity distracts from the quality. Quality is what matters. And I think when, when you talk about quality...

• 43:53Speaker 02

  There's a few things going on. One is, there needs to be some sort of alignment in terms of values and worldview. So like, you need to have something in common. You need to care about the same thing. Something. Doesn't need to be about, doesn't need to be everything. But there needs to be something that you both believe, that you both care about. This is true for friendships and romantic relationships. There needs to be alignment somewhere on like a deep value. At the same time, it seems to be beneficial if there's also a little bit of, not just difference, but like opposites, you know? So introverts tend to play really well with extroverts and vice versa. You know, the extrovert needs somebody to listen to all their bullshit and the introvert

• 44:38Speaker 02

  needs somebody to listen to all day. So, you know, so it works out well. So there are certain personality traits that tend to complement each other well. And I think that's what we describe as chemistry. You know, when you sit with somebody and it's just like, it just works. It's because you have like complementary personality traits that kind of... What are the things you think people need to agree on? So actually, so my friend, Nir Eyal, had this great thing. And he's not a relationships guy, he's just a friend. He actually, I don't know if he's been... I've had him on the show. Yeah, he's been on your show. So he's a, his whole thing is about attention and distraction. But I was hanging out with him once and his theory was, he said, so there's five things.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  I think, see, I'm doing it again. You gave yourself a number. I'm doing it again. He's dangerous. He's got a handful of things. I think, I think I can get it. I think I can get it. So, religion, so, okay. Cleanliness, religion, politics, kids, and, oh shit.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  I think goal, I'll say like life goals. It's probably something else, but we'll say life goals. Cleanliness? Yeah. I did not see that one coming. So he said, he said, if you get all five, you're probably bored because you agree on everything. If you get four, you're, that's probably like the optimal spot. Three, you're okay, but you're probably fighting a decent amount. And he said less than three, it's like, it's not gonna work. Cause you just don't align on enough things. So I think it's, the things that people need to really align, align on is like lifestyle habits, which I guess is cleanliness. Okay, that, yeah, that makes sense. That's the one thing my wife and I fight about. So we have four out of the five. Yeah, me and my wife too. So funny. Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  But like kids, politics, religion, like, you know, you probably need to be aligned on more of those things than not. Cause it's, yeah, I mean, you can, there are couples that disagree politically, disagree, you know, different religions, but it's like, there needs to be enough overlap that like, it kinda keeps them binded together. So we've got shared values. We've got complementary, but different personalities. And then the crazy thing is, so if you look at like research on friendships in particular, I've been really interested in this because we're both at that age where I think it's,

• 47:13Speaker 02

  it gets hard to make friends, cause everybody's so busy all the time. If you look at the research on friendship, like, the number one fact, you know, they talk about all these things, similar values, you know, similar hobbies or behaviors or interests or whatever. The, but the, the number one factor that, that never gets talked about is simply exposure. It's like you tend to become friends with, or develop relationships, with people you see all the time. And that, I think that's just such an underrated thing. And this kinda comes back to the, the environment piece of like, putting yourself in an environment around people that you want. Who validate you in a positive way or who you want to be more like.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  You know, there's a certain amount of value of just seeing the same type of people day after day after day. Like it, there's like an unconscious bond that starts forming whether you want it to or not.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  So how do people go about constructing that? Is it just, whoever you work with, that's going to be that or?

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think we, you know, we run into this. A similar paradox of choice, especially these days with remote work and everything, right? Like if everybody's working from home, then now you, now you get even more choice in terms of like who you spend time with.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  But you also default to isolation.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Which is something I definitely worry about. We, when we, so we did about 18 months where no one came in the office. We actually had employees start saying, hey, can we come back now?

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Because they were feeling so isolated. Now, it wasn't everybody, there are still people, you know, three years later that are like, no, no, no, I don't want to come back yet. So it's interesting.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Isolation, I think. Forcing yourself to get out. It's funny because, you know, as somebody who's been self-employed his whole career. A lot of the problems that. That I faced in my twenties. It's interesting, like it's interesting to see the world going through it, which is like, I had to learn how to force myself out of the house. Cause it's, what you discover is that. When you work. In the same room that you sleep and you watch TV and you like. Do whatever your interests are and you work out like.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  It becomes very hard to leave that room at a certain point. And so you have to find, you have to like invent reasons to make you leave.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  I, I guess I, you know, my answer to your question is just, I, I think. I'm bullish on. Communities over the next 10, 20 years, like I just think.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Without, with, as you pointed out, with fewer kids, with less religion, and with more remote work, you know, like that, those three things are probably the biggest reasons that people physically go to the same place over and over and over again. And so I think we're, just out of psychological need, we're gonna have to reinvent that in some way, just around other activities or behaviors, you know? The gym class, the CrossFit class is a perfect example. Like, what does that look like in all these other verticals? You know, like, book clubs, you know? Pickleball, like, everybody's playing pickleball, and honestly, I think it's-

• 50:29Speaker 01

  I keep hearing about that.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  It's mostly just because we wanna go see the same five people. Like, you need to go see the same five people over and over and over again. Like, that's just part of being kind of a psychologically stable person.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting. The idea that the most severe form of punishment you can put a human through is isolation.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Making them be by themselves, that's really weird. As somebody who likes to be alone, but always in my control and all that, so I get that it's a very artificial way, but I just, I so enjoy being by myself. I'm startled, I accept the truth of it, trust me, this is not me going, "Oh, it wouldn't happen to me."

• 51:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  But I'm startled that that really is the most brutal form of punishment that you can put a human through. It's very strange.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Well, you just gotta imagine no internet.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no internet would be rough, that is for sure.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  But the, the fact that the human mind will begin to hallucinate-

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  -if it isn't seeing other people, I'm sorry, what?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Like, that's so, that your brain has such a hunger to have people to interact with, that it will make them up in order to scratch that itch. That's really, that's surreal to me.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it puts it on the same level as, like, food or-

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  -breathing.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  No, for sure.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  But we, we don't consider it the same way.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It's interesting. It really hits me as, okay, this is super, super important. Sex drive is another one that like, people are very, I think, are quick to not think about how fundamental a drive that is. Yeah. Um, you know, for guys, it's, it's harder to forget because you realize, oh, I don't control my erection. Yeah. And when you realize, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, nature put this out of my conscious reach? Like, that is such a deeply embedded drive that it's like, there is Michio Kaku, there is a subroutine running in my brain that's like, you're going to want what I, you know, evolution, tell you you're going to want. Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  That's crazy. And so, when you've got that kind of thing, like, pushing you to move forward, if people don't take that time to understand it, recognize how important it is, and this is something that my wife and I tell people in relationships a lot, like, if you want a long-lasting relationship, you've got to keep having sex. Yeah. Because so often, especially people that have kids, you have bed death. Yeah. And so you become basically like roommates. And with the amount that I work, like, that's always the danger for me, that I will just get so stressed and there's so much going on, and I'm sure it's just driving my testosterone down. I just don't feel like it. Yeah. And so there have been times where Lisa and I have had to be like, okay, like, this is a real thing, like, we have to be committed to this and we can't let, I mean,

• 53:19Speaker 01

  look, there's gonna be times where you're sick or whatever, but like, we try not to let a week go by where we don't have sex, ideally more than once. Yeah. So, it's like, and look, that's me speaking in my 40s, you've been very generous to put me at your age for this whole episode, which is not true, but like, that, you know, you really, really have to be thoughtful. Yeah. I want to go back to romantic love. Before we started rolling, you said that you were a convert, because I said, I'm a huge believer in love and marriage, and you said, I'm a convert. Um, one, what made you think in the beginning, meh, not for me? And then what changed your mind? I, so-

• 53:55Speaker 02

  My emotional background is avoidant attachment and basically a commitment phobe. So I struggled quite a bit in romantic relationships to maintain romantic relationships.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Because you were afraid they would reject you and so you reject them first?

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, that's fundamentally like the kind of the way an avoidant attachment works is it's a deep insecurity of being hurt and so you you protect yourself by finding reasons to push people away.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  And most of those reasons are gonna be irrational or imagined.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  So that was most of my early relationships.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  When did you become consciously aware of that?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  I think probably towards the end of my relationship with my college girlfriend.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  I developed an awareness, you know, with my first serious girlfriend, I was just a bad boyfriend. And but I had so little awareness, I didn't even realize that I was, you know, because we all justify our decisions and actions. And so, you know, I kind of walked out of that one thinking I I was like rosy and gold and she was the terrible one. And then, you know, as an adult, I look back, I'm like, no, I was an idiot. But it was with my college girlfriend that I, you know, I got to like the back half of that relationship. It's about two and a half years and I just realized, I'm like, wow, I'm like really not good to her. And like, I really care about her, but I'm not a good boyfriend.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  And and I had to, it was difficult to kind of admit that to myself. And and then I started investigating why that was like, why, why am I like responding in these weird emotional ways? And doing shitty things to her, you know, like just causing drama for no reason. And so that's, I started reading a lot about relationships and when I stumbled across attachment theory, it was like, oh, shit. Yeah, that's me. That's, that's it right there.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  And so at that point, you're like, hmm, I'm maybe because of this, I'm not interested in pursuing something or?

• 56:20Speaker 02

  So.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  The thing, so the thing about an avoidant attachment is, is you have a fundamental just anxiety and fear around intimacy and romance. And it's, that manifests itself in various ways, but you know, it's, we, we experience the emotion first and then we justify it later. And so in my younger years, I found all sorts of reasons to justify this, you know, it's just, I have a really high sex drive, I'm polyamorous, I, you know, my lifestyle is just, I'm always gonna be on the road and working really hard, so I'm never gonna have

• 57:04Speaker 02

  time to like settle down and commit, you know, it's like, I started kind of telling myself all these stories about myself, that made me think that I am not the type of person who settles down with one partner for a long period of time. As I got older and started to understand a little bit more about my baggage and my childhood and trauma and things like that, I started to realize that maybe some of that's not entirely true and I, and I need to work on myself. And then it was when I met my wife that I, I still had some of those narratives going

• 57:45Speaker 02

  on, but it was funny, it was like I was with her for one year, two years, and normally in the, in the exact same spots that historically I had kind of freaked out and tried to get away or caused a bunch of drama or cheated on her or whatever, I'm hitting that same like, I guess landmark with my wife and I'm like, hmm, I still have a lot of this anxiety, but like, I don't wanna go anywhere, like I want, this is where I wanna be. And I think- It forced me to kind of work through a lot of that stuff within the relationship with her.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  There's desire again. This is exactly why I'm always, when somebody fails to get what they want in life, while there is a long road to hoe, I'm always like, you just don't want it badly enough to figure those things out. Because in that moment, if you were like, I dig her, but not as much as I want to go be free, or go get laid, or whatever, and this is, this is where I think a lot of people fall down, certainly guys, is the thrill of the hunt, the thrill of convincing someone that, you know, maybe a week ago you didn't even know to sleep with you is really intoxicating.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  And to pretend that that isn't like a drug-like thing is what's going to get you in trouble. Because it is so different to pursue that versus pursuing a long-term committed relationship. This is one thing I always thought, okay, I have, I have set myself up well for a long-term relationship because I've thought about the nature of relationships since I was a teenager. And so like, what phases do they move through neurochemically? And so like, early love is very different than you've been married for five years. And, you know, those things shift and change. And so it becomes about understanding how they're gonna change and having a meta-desire that's over that. So for me, the meta-desire that overrides everything in my marriage is,

• 59:39Speaker 01

  I want to see what a life looks like when you share it with somebody.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  And that, the good, the bad, the ups and downs, but that idea really speaks to me. And so even though I really enjoyed the early years where it was, there was a sexual freedom, if you will, if I could be with whoever I wanted.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  I was, I waited, so when I decided to propose to my wife, as I was telling you, I made a pros and cons list, and that was on there. Like, am I okay that this is the last person I'm ever gonna sleep with?

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  And running that math, I was like, yeah. Like, I recognize it as a sacrifice. I'm not pretending that I'm not giving something up, because I very much am. But the thing that I get, this idea of being able to share my life with her and grow with her, and we were in her, she was 21 when we met, I was only 24, so it was like... You know, we were pretty, pretty early. So it was like, I went, I was broke at the time. So it was like, there's no like, oh, I've already made it. Now I'm finding somebody. So I was like, wow, we're really gonna like, do this together and dream together and build together and all of that stuff. And so it was like talking about, okay, things are gonna change like this. I remember as we were in the grips of the cocaine like effects of that, when you first realize you're in love.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Just insane. I was like, this feeling will change. This is gonna turn into something else. And we have to be ready for that. We have to communicate through that. We have to navigate through that.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  But if we handle it well, I have a feeling there's something on the other side of this that's really gonna be.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  That's better than cocaine.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, truly.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  Which nobody tells you. Like, this is the other thing. I just think.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, you alluded to something that was very, very major for me. And I think this is true for a lot of men in particular is I think. Men tend to overestimate the significance of the hunt, the chase, the sexual conquest. I do think, you know, obviously there's. It is very enjoyable and it's fun and it's almost like a sport.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  And I think once I real, but I think a lot of men over, because they receive so much social validation and because they. Have scripts running that tell them that that's what makes them. High status or important or desirable.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  They tend to put way more meaning into it than there actually is, you know, an epiphany for me. And I was definitely one of those guys. So an epiphany for me was when I realized exactly what you were just saying is that. Basically, the hunt is, it's a glorified hobby. Like, it's just.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  It's almost a sport and it's.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  The same way like you can love basketball and like make it the center of your life, but it's still just basketball, like it's never gonna be more than just basketball. You know, and it's the same thing with dating a bunch of people and hooking up with a bunch of hot girls and getting all that validation from that. And meanwhile, there is a certain level of depth of meaning when you have shared a decade with somebody and you've been through the best times and the worst times with that person. You've had joy with that person, you've had pain and fear with that person, and you're still with them and they've watched you grow through that and you've watched them grow

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  through that, like that is so rare and special and it is, you can't replicate that in any other way. And once that clicked for me, that like, wait a second, this thing that I've been spending all these years focusing so much on was oversold to me, was like overhyped, and this thing that most people complain about, which is marriage, is totally undersold to me, like the joy and the meaning and the impact of like, you know, seeing my wife accomplish something in her business that she's been working three years towards and, you know, and watching her stress through it and giving her support and giving her advice, like watching

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  her succeed in that moment, like it's so much more impactful and meaningful than like the best one night stand I ever had, like it's not even on the same, you know, you're like you're not even in the same territory when you compare those two things. I, you know, I, that revelation was like so profound for me. And I'm a little bitter that like that message isn't, like I started wondering, I'm like, where was this message when I was 20, right? Like, cause when I was 20, the message was, no dude, you need to bang as many girls as possible and never settle down and, you know, cause that's like what a high status alpha male does or, you know, whatever the thing was back then. And

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  And that was fun for a couple of years, but like it doesn't serve you well long term. And so I have been, I'm glad to, I'm glad to hear you're, you're on the same page. It's, I have intentionally kind of been an advocate for classical monogamy and marriage. Because I think it is, in this day and age, it is underrated.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, long-term relationships for sure. It's the most gratifying thing I've ever done. And I say that as somebody who's had the kind of worldly success that most people, you know, fight and die for. And I'm just telling you, like, nothing even comes close.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  And no matter how successful you are, at least in my experience, it's not like the negative voice goes away. It's not like, oh, it's just up and to the right. Like, it's still that jagged, you know, cliff of like, whoa, it's working. No, nothing's working, you know? Is it gonna last? Is it, is this forever? Like, there's so much, like, whipsawing when you're trying to matter. Obviously, I could have gone off and retired and just been wealthy and spent my money, but I, I played that thought out and it was very obvious to me that I would not be able to be happy.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Fulfilled, that's the right word. I wouldn't be able to be fulfilled. And so I was gonna have to go back into living a full and robust life, serving myself and other people. But in all of that, which is amazing and it's important and people need to do it, but in all of that, nothing has given me what my wife, and it's, it's a gestalt of things, because it's the moment where she looks at me like I'm powerful and that, it makes me feel so good. The moments where I am completely broken in front of her and she's there.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  And it's like, I'm here, I don't think less of you for this moment. In fact, if anything, I'm honored to be needed and that you've shown me this. And You put all of that together, it's fucking unreal. To this day, if she walks into a room and I'm not expecting her, like, I'll, oh. Like, I get, I won't say I don't get butterflies, but it's like, I'm so happy to see her that, and that's, we're in the same house all the time.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Like, we basically never leave the house.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  But if she walks into a room and I'm not expecting her, it just makes me happy.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, you, you, you mentioned like the, the butterflies and the cocaine-like effect of that ro, that early romance where it's just very, very intense emotions.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  It does go away, but the thing, if it is a healthy, solid relationship, the thing that kind of it segues into is almost like a calm, ever-present satisfaction. And that is, in many ways, so much better, you know, like, it's, it's, it's not as exciting. It doesn't get your adrenaline going. You're not having sex three times a day anymore, but that's fine. It, but it, there's just this like peace, you know? It's like she comes down for breakfast and you're just like, huh. Like, a little smile pops on your face. And like, it just feels good all the time.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  And, and it's, yeah, I can't, I can't recommend it enough. Like, there's, and it comes back to, right, like, the subroutines thing.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  Like, there is a reason why marriage exists in every culture across human history. Yeah, sure, humans were not, monogamy isn't, not everybody's monogamous all the time. There's plenty of cultures that, you know, people have sex with other people or maybe people stray for a little bit. But pair bonding, which is settling down with one partner for a long period of time, that is pretty universal to, to, to the human experience. And, uh, and I don't, I don't think that's an accident.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  What do you think about the modern mating crisis, probably the right way to sum it up? Like, what the hell is going on now? And how do we reverse the trends?

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  I think there's two issues happening simultaneously.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  One is just a classic paradox of choice. You know, when you've got an app that, you know, if I can set up five dates.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  You know, in the next hour.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Why, why? It removes the stakes. And so if, if a date doesn't go well, it's kind of like, eh, whatever.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  I'll just find somebody else. I think there, there needs to be a little bit.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  You need to feel like you're losing something if, if, if a date doesn't go well to like, kind of motivate you to, to open up and put in the effort to like, see if there's a connection there. So I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it is that, I think generally people don't. You can't really settle into a, a healthy relationship. Well, hold on, let me.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  It's harder to settle into a healthy relationship until you've kind of gotten yourself figured out. And I think.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Why'd you hesitate to say that?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Well, I was originally gonna say you can't. But I don't think that's true.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Really? You think you can be dysfunctional and get into?

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. I, well, so let me define figures yourself out. But you can be dysfunctional and functionalize yourself within the relationship.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  That's like a high wire act.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  It's incredibly hard, but some people pull it off. Just the same way like, you know, high school sweethearts will get married and.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Against my recommendation.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't recommend it, but some of them pull it off. And they end up living a very happy, healthy life.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Generally speaking, so there are large amounts of people, large amounts of people will be accepted, but as a general principle, I think it is hard to settle into a long-term committed relationship until you have figured out your own identity a little bit, figured out what you're doing with your own life first. Before you can share that with somebody else. And I think as the world gets more complex, that process of identity formation, which usually traditionally happens in like the age sixteen to twenty-four range, that is elongating. So it's taking people longer and longer, young people longer and longer to kind of figure out

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  who they are, who they want to be, what they're gonna do with their life. And I think most people want to figure that out before they figure out who they're gonna be with long-term. And so.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  The more

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  complexity is introduced to the identity formation process, the harder it's gonna be for people to commit or decide. Like if I don't know who I am or what I'm doing with my life, how am I ever gonna know if you're right for me? You know? So

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  I imagine it's those two things kinda happening simultaneously.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, going back to the five things that Nirajal was talking about, one of the things that I think people, where most people fail, it's gonna be one of two things. Either selection, which I think is the biggest problem. And I remember for a long time, I thought, I'm just so good at relationships. And then one day it really hit me, oh, my wife is a ninja and she lets things roll off her back. She doesn't get wound up about stuff. And so, you know, all of my highfalutin tactics would not work on somebody that was like overly reactive, emotionally unstable, or whatever. So it's like, I was like, okay, selection is a big part of this. And then values is, to your earlier point, I think one of the most overlooked things. I think people need to overlap. I have always called it roughly 80%.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Like if you have 80% of your values aligned, you're gonna be good. But then, understanding what your different personality

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  strengths are. So and look, I'm a little skewed on this because my wife and I work together and you certainly do not to be high functioning. But I find that the things that allow us to work together have served us incredibly well in our relationship, which is that we have, we're good at very different things. And so, I'm big vision. I can handle a ton of stress. I can think well through a storm of just everything going wrong. And then my wife, once it's like, we know what we're doing, then she's just gonna be completely religious. She will never fool herself. It's like, this is doable, this is not, this is how we're gonna get it done. And so, you put us together and there's no wrestling for control. Both of us are able to follow the other person when the right,

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  that person is the right person to lead. But overall, it's like, okay, I'll set the Strategy, whether it's for the business or for the family. And then she's like the, the reality check of what we can do and how we can do it. And once we learned to say out loud, you're good at this.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  I'm good at this. I'm bad at this. You're bad at that. Like, once we laid all that out, we were like, do we all agree on this? Because if we don't, let's have that debate so that it can be a known thing. So when we get into a situation, it's like, hey, you're the right person to follow. You're way better at thinking through this kind of problem than I am. Cool. Go forth, prosper. You've got rules set up, all this stuff. But without the alignment of values, without acknowledging where we're strong, where we're weak, why we work well together, without wanting each other to win.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  And wanting to be a team, we'd never get anywhere.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  And I find that especially now, it's interesting, I wasn't headed this, this way when I brought this up. But part of the problem that I see now is when you have a breakdown of gender roles, now it's like, you, you don't even need those to be the roles, but you need roles.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  You need, it's like, there's mod soccer. If you've ever seen little kids play soccer, they just swarm around the ball and everybody runs in a big clump. Whereas, once you get to the professionals, it's, everybody has a role. They know exactly what they do and they do it to a T.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  And I think the same is true in a marriage. I don't care what your roles are, but make sure you know who's doing what.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  I, I agree. And I don't think, you shouldn't be limited to the gender roles, but you shouldn't, you shouldn't also be limited to like 50/50 everything. Like, it's, it's, people, personalities excel at different things. So you find who's better at what within the relationship and, and you maximize that. I think you touched upon like, kind of the key piece of advice that I find myself giving these days to young people who ask about dating and, and relationship stuff, which is, it's, I think, these days, it's all about filtering, uh, getting really, really good at screening early on, because.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  The the system is essentially different. It's completely different than it was even ten, fifteen years ago. You know, back in the old days, you were limited in how many people you could meet. So when you did meet somebody you liked, you would put in a lot of effort to make it work and maybe overlook some incompatibilities or problem areas to like, you know, you're like, well, I don't know when I'm gonna meet another one like this one, so better make it work, right? So a lot of people, I think, probably ended up in subpar relationships, but most people ended up in the relationship they wanted. Whereas today, you just, you have this absolute glut of opportunities. The problem is sifting through it.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  And I think most people's approach to dating is antiquated. It's still held over from the way people did it twenty years ago, which is like, get to know each other, don't say anything that's too off-putting, you know, don't rock the boat at all, don't act like a weirdo. And I think today, if you have way more opportunities than you can capitalize on, but it's, it's, the bottleneck is actually figuring out who you're compatible with, then it's probably optimal to actually be the weirdo. Yes. Who asks some controversial or off-putting questions on the first date. Yes. Maybe upsets a few people, maybe doesn't get called back every time. Because when you do find somebody who aligns with your values,

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  then it's like you know immediately, you're like, okay, this is the person that I invest my effort into. And all those other people, I don't have to waste weeks texting with them or being ghosted or not hearing back or whatever, like, so. I, I think it's the skill that needs to be learned in the dating world is actually getting quite confrontational with the values conversations. Like, what do you believe? What are your political views? What are your religious views? Do you want kids? Like, things that historically you were never supposed to talk about on a first date. I think we should normalize getting it out there.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  It's interesting, man. So my wife and I got together in 2000 and that was the play. So I had gotten to the point where I had broken up with somebody that by my definition went a little crazy. And I did not enjoy that experience. And so I was like, okay, my then chick, I was just trying to take out, to be quite frank, who ends up being my wife. But I was like, okay, she's legally obligated to leave the country because she's from England. She was only gonna be at the time that we went on our first stage. She's only gonna be there for another eight weeks. So I was like, this is amazing.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Legally obligated to leave. I don't have to worry about like her turning into a stage.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  I'll never see her again.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, oh my God, this is wonderful. And so on the date, I was like, I'm going to be aggressively myself because I have no fear of loss whatsoever. And so I was just like, this is who I am. This is what I'm into. And she was like, this is the weirdest date I've ever been on in my life. And as like a Brit who really grew up in the era where it was like very proper and like you didn't talk about that kind of stuff, she was freaked out. But she was like, this was awesome.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  And so she had a great time and she was like, cool. Well, if you're gonna be that open and honest about who you are, like here I am. And so from the jump, we were like, oh, I actually know who you are. You actually know who I am. Like I didn't fake it. I can't believe this is true. But I read her some of my terrible poetry on the first date and was just like, yeah, like this is me, the weirdnesses and all of it. And I was like, man, when a woman like tries to tell me that she only has eyes for me, I'm like, forget it. There's no way you don't find Brad Pitt attractive. This is like peak Fight Club Brad Pitt.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  And I was like, I don't buy it for one second. And to be honest, that makes me insecure. If you're trying to tell me that you don't find him attractive, then I'm just like, fuck. Like, what do I have to do? Like, is my hair okay? Like, but if I know that you're like, oh, I find plenty of people attractive, but I'm into you and so I'm committed to this relationship, then I'm like, okay, word. I don't have to be so paranoid. And so that was how we were talking on the first date. She was just like, wow, this is like really crazy. But to your point, it established right away, maybe I'm not the person for you. Maybe this isn't going to be interesting for either of us. And I learned that I actually don't, I can't believe this is true, but it is. I don't enjoy sex, no matter how hot the person is. If I'm not interested in who they are as a person.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Even if I'm like, this is a one night stand 100%.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  But I still want to think you're interesting.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love, I love the attraction thing. I sometimes describe it as like, a lot of people's, a lot of people's conception of what commitment is, is actually just like North Korea of your emotions, right? Like it's, just because you're married to somebody doesn't mean that you're, you stop being human. Like it's like, if I see a hot woman, she's a hot woman, like nothing changed about how hot she is. Like she's still hot. The only thing that changes is you're, you're still physically attracted to a lot of people, but you were consciously choosing each and every day to be with this person. And I actually think like, once you, if you can get to a place where each person admits that, it actually makes the commitment

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  even more powerful because you can actually have conversations about what you think is attractive, who you think is attractive. But you're still choosing to be together and, and so it becomes more meaningful.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  And if you're doing it right, in my opinion, your significant other feels to the core of their existence. You're into them.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  You find them attractive. You're not swayed, it's not like, oh, because I find them attractive that in any way, shape or form, I feel that that even remotely competes, is in the same league with how I feel about you and sharing our life and all that, like, fuck, forget it. Yes, she's attractive, hot, whatever, but it really, it really, this is going to sound so silly when I finish the example, but it's true. I felt seen and understood by my wife. We were once at a pool party at the Roosevelt Hotel of all places. Here in LA, like, not like some weird party. And these two women went topless, started making out, and I didn't notice.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  And so my wife stabbing me on the shoulder, she's like, yo, you have to see this. And I was like, I'm so in love with you right now. Like the fact that you, because most, the cliche goes that had I looked, my wife would be offended and she would hit me and be upset for the rest of the day. And my wife was like making sure I didn't miss it. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. And so stuff like that is Is the reward that you get.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  When you really think about, okay, I'm gonna share my life with this person. They're gonna share their lives with me. We're gonna give up a lot to be with each other. Relationships are a big compromise. They need to be worth it.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  And so when you go out of your way to go, okay, what would make being in a relationship with this person worth it? And I really believe that one of the, cause nature only has two levers to yank on, pleasure and pain. And if we are more likely to keep, to have kids and to have kids that live long enough to have kids by being a united front and helping each other out, then there's going to be some pleasure in doing that. And so what Lisa and I realized very early on is, one, I want you to win. I wanna see good things happen for you.

• 1:23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  I want you to feel and just know the depth of my love. And so I'm going to externalize it. And so I made a rule with myself very early on that every time I thought a compliment, I would say it. Even though sometimes it'd be super awkward, we'd be in the middle of like, hey, what are we gonna do this weekend? And I would just notice the way her hair is, and be like, damn, your hair looks really beautiful. And, or she'd say something, like now this happens a lot, she's really fucking good at business. And so she'll say something, I'm like, oh my God, like that is so smart. I'm like, hold on, I just need to say, I don't wanna distract us, but I need to say, I am very impressed. And you know, and it's just like, when you do that enough, enough, enough, and you're just like, I need you

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  to really feel at a visceral level, how much I'm into you, impressed by you, love you, am willing to protect you, like ah, on and on and on. It really turns into something amazing.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  But this isn't the message, this isn't what the cool kids say.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  No, no, and it's not, not only is it great for her, cause it makes her feel loved and seen, it's good for you too. It's like by express, by noticing and expressing those things, you are reinforcing the experience of appreciating those things in her.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Brother.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  People need to hear, preach Mark Manson.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  Yes, it's, it's.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  That is so important.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  You know, it's, I, it's the little things that add up over time. And I think, you know, as you, what you just said about complimenting is, is such a minor thing, but like you can never stop doing it.

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  You mentioned the sex thing already, saying I love you, like even. Even if we have a huge fight, we make a point to tell each other that we love each other, like mid-fight. And I, I think it's really important to do that because it's, when emotions get high and you're feeling hurt and you're feeling afraid and, and you're angry, like, all sorts of crazy things start going through your head and it, it just, it like grounds you and it brings you back to like, okay, like, it's gonna be fine, we're in this together, like, this is part of it, this is, fights happen, right? Yeah, I, I think it's, it's, there's an accumulation of small things throughout a relationship

• 1:25:38Speaker 02

  that add up into something magnificent and not easily seen. And I think romance gets so much of the attention because in romance, it tends to be a few big things. There's grand gestures, there's this insane trip we took to Hawaii or whatever, and it was so romantic and, and those are very obvious and memorable experiences and, and they're also very observable from the outside. You know, what you're saying about complimenting your wife, like, that's not very observable from the outside to most people. But that is, that feeling that you two generate with each other and maintain over years and years and years,

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  that's what gives it power, right? Like, that's what makes it so special.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yes. I wanna go back to something you said really fast, because I want people to hear this so badly. You were pointing out that me saying that to my wife is reinforcing in myself

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  how I feel about my wife. Did you give me the chills when you said that?

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  This is like one of my advanced tactics.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  The reason that I feel the way I feel when she walks in a room is because I've taken the time to reinforce

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  You've conditioned yourself.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Yes. That even now, it just gave me the chills again.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Even now, telling you the story,

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  that when my wife walks in a room, I get happy, reinforces

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  that when my wife walks in a room, I get happy.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  And I, I, I thought early on, every time I have the impulse to criticize, instead of doing that, I'm gonna compliment her. It's always gonna be real, I'm never gonna say something I don't actually mean or don't actually feel. And it doesn't mean that I never criticize. But it does mean that when you have those little like, why'd you leave the plate there or whatever kinda comments? It's like, you know what, thank you so much for making that meal for me or, you know, something. And that little switch

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Makes such a big difference.

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  It's funny because it kind of comes back to, well, I think when a lot of people think about like, what is a good relationship? They focus more on the damage control. It's like, how do you fight well? Or how do you not resent each other? Or, you know, how do you keep the sex life alive? But it's so much of it is doing those little positive things, like finding things to be grateful for, expressing that gratitude, reminding yourself of what you like in each other, complimenting each other regularly. Like, there's a certain amount of, there's a practice on that side as well that is probably under discussed.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  No doubt. Talk to me about fighting well. I've heard that stat, and I will tell you that I've lived it, that the couples that stay together the longest are the ones that learn how to fight well.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, John Gottman's got some great research that, he basically, he took hundreds and hundreds of married couples, put them in a room, explicitly asked them to talk about whatever they fought about most recently. Basically got them fighting in a room, and then he would watch their behavior and kind of like coded it, and then track those couples over decades. And then after he saw how many of them stuck together and how many of them divorced, he kind of like backwards engineered like what the successful couples were doing correctly. And what was super interesting that he found was that successful couples don't actually resolve a lot of their fights. They don't necessarily,

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  they're not trying to compromise all the time. Sometimes successful couples, they're just like, yeah, we agree to disagree. And we have this fight every month, but whatever. Like, it's just kind of like a thing we do. I think it's, fighting is inevitable. There are, there are some tactical things that you can do better or worse. You know, it's blame. So Gottman's got, he calls them the four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse. I think one is blame, one is stonewalling, one is...

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  Here I go again, four things.

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  The fourth one I have for you though, because I don't know, contempt.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  Contempt.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  And that's like, oh, if you see a couple that rolls their eyes, which I think is the example he gives. If they roll their eyes at each other, it's like 98% they'll be divorced in a year or something. I mean, it was like a startling result. And yeah, that, man, you can't let that creep in. This goes back to you've got to want your partner to win.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  And one thing my wife and I learned, man, this, this has really worked well for us, is to speak when fighting, to speak in insecurities. So, because if you're getting your back up, as my wife would say, if you're really annoyed about something, the odds that someone has triggered an insecurity of yours borders on 100%.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  And so now it's like, okay, if you can identify, instead of wanting to win, where you're crafting clever arguments, if you can identify, okay, this is making me mad because of this and I'm feeling insecure about that, it diffuses the fight so fast. One, you stop arguing, what we call arguing at the level of the tea. Because the biggest fight we ever got in, my audience is going to be tired of hearing this, the biggest fight we ever got in was over a cup of tea.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  And I realized this isn't about the cup of tea, what is this about? And that's when I realized, oh shit, I'm insecure about this. And then once I said that, and I was like, this is going to be such an abrupt left turn because we were arguing, like screaming at each other. And I was like, this is going to be super weird. But I just like to backtrack and say, the reason that I'm upset is because I'm insecure about this. And she was like, whoa. And for her, it was like, like The Sixth Sense, and the movie just played in reverse, and she played that whole thing back, now understanding what I was actually worried about.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  And I was like, I'm so sorry, I did not realize, like I had not pulled it into my conscious mind that that's what was driving my behavior. But now that I stop and think about it, it's that.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  And we've carried that with us now for 20 years.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  It's a great tactical tool of just like labeling where the fear or the anger is coming from on a deep level.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  You also alluded to what I think is probably the most important kind of mindset thing, which is, I think a lot of couples see the relationship itself as a power struggle. That if their partner is getting too much attention or affection, or is getting more attention and affection than they are, then that's unfair. It should be equaled out. And so they try to bring their partner down a notch, so that they can come up a notch. And that is almost by definition what a toxic relationship is. And instead, you should see it as, again, a team. It's like us versus the world, right?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  And if you're winning, if you're winning right now, that's good for me, right? And hopefully, one day, I'll be winning too, and then you'll be happy for me, and vice versa.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  But it's hard for a lot of people, because I think a lot of people's romantic relationships, it gets intertwined with a lot of their trauma and deep insecurities from early in their life. And so it's hard for them, if they are being triggered in one of the ways that you just described, it's very hard to see somebody who's triggering you as on your team. And so until that perception is resolved, it's going to be difficult to not see the relationship itself as a power struggle.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Man, that one really scares me. And that's the part of the modern dating scene that freaks me out the most, is when I hear the most popular voices. They certainly are not giving good advice, in my opinion. But the most popular voices, they make it sound like dating is a thing I've never seen or heard of before.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Because it sounds like a battle. It's adversarial, it's like me versus you. How do I keep you from taking advantage of me? And how do I maximize what I can get out of you? It is so, like, I'm on their team. Like, for a second, I'm just going to be like, okay. There, this is where young people are right now. Yeah. I'm with you, I love you, I wanna see good things for you, but I'm telling you, if you go into this with an adversarial mindset, you will lose every time. Oh, you're screwed. And even, and so I really, I wanna have more of these people on the show. Yeah. It puts me, it makes me feel very fatherly, in like a weird way, where I'm like, no, no, no, like, trust me, like, there's something beautiful on the other side of this, but if you're coming at it like that,

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  but I want them to lay out the heart of shit. I want them to be like, yo, bro, you don't understand what it's like out here uh, with dating apps and hypergamy and all this stuff, and like, guys are getting the shaft, and they just can't be taken advantage of anymore, and these girls are all on uh, OnlyFans, and so it's like, okay, let's, let's lay out all the brutality, because clearly something is happening. Yeah. Because it really has become dysfunctional. You've got declining sex rates, you've got marriage in the toilet, fatherlessness, I mean, it's just, it's not an ideal bundle of things. Sure. So it's like, okay, how do we start teasing some of these things out?

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  And I'm just arrogant enough, where I'm like, I really think, even in this crazy environment, the path forward is still the first date that you and I were talking about. Yes. Which is, okay, I've had to do a lot of work to actually be interesting. Yep. I've had to do a lot of work to understand, like, oh, I wanna know about you, I wanna hear about you, and I'm gonna take you to a place that one, makes you feel good, makes you feel safe, is intriguing, and I'm asking you questions that maybe you haven't even asked about yourself, and not in a way so I can get one over on you, or dunk on you, or whatever, by the end of it, I want you to be like, damn, like, I never saw myself in that way. Mm-hmm. And just show people how rad it feels when somebody is, they're sincere, because you can't bullshit people.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you're sincerely trying to elevate them and find interesting things, and you're not playing a game. It's like, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I think. Yeah. Well, it's-

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  So I don't necessarily think this is a modern thing, or not super modern. Like, I think this strain of advice, this seeing relationships as a power struggle, this message, it's been cyclical. It's like every generation has had an iteration of it. You know, my generation, it was the pick-up artist thing. In the 90s, there was a thing called the Rules. I think the generation before that, it was the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Like, there's just this, every 10, 12 years, there's a new version that pops up. And they look at whatever people's frustrations are in the dating market at that time. They use that as a justification for these unhealthy relationship behaviors.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Why is it the crush? Why is the power struggle the thing that lets people cope?

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  I, well, so if you are an insecure person who has been hurt deeply, whether it be through rejection, or a dysfunctional family, or whatever, I think one of the most fundamental feelings that you have is disempowerment. You feel like you don't have control over your own life. So when somebody shows up and starts telling you, you know, relationships are a power game, you need to follow these tips to take control and like win back your power from men or from women, it's a very appealing message to that person. Because that person's never experienced a healthy relationship. So they don't know what a healthy relationship feels like.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  They've only experienced unhealthy relationships, which are power dynamics, and they've been on the losing end of those power dynamics. So step one in their head is to get on the winning side of that power dynamic. And what usually happens is, they do get on the winning side of that power dynamic at some point. They use the advice, they go get laid, or they go get a girlfriend, or a boyfriend, or whatever. They've exercised their power and taken control, and they've realized that that's not fulfilling at all. It's like, okay, now I'm getting sex and I have a partner, but...

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  It's not enjoyable. Like, we fight all the time. It feels very empty and meaningless. It's very stressful. It's not adding anything to my life. And so they, some of them make the jump to the healthy relationships, but not all of them do. But it's so, I just think with every generation, you know, right now, we have Gen Z is coming of age. And, you know, just like the millennials before them, there's, there's gonna be a massive amount of demand for this type of content and material. And I think, like the millennials, it'll run its course. You know, in five years, most of Gen Z is gonna try a bunch of this stuff and realize that it didn't make them happy. It didn't really work. They're gonna mature a little

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  bit. And they'll, they'll end up back in healthy relationship land. And then the, you know, five, six years after that, the generation under them, when we're all in VR headsets or whatever, like, there's gonna be some dude standing up saying like, "This is what you gotta do. You gotta win the pussy back." And like, all this stuff. And we're just gonna go through it all over again. So, um, I do think, you know, there are some interesting observations about the dating market in terms of, it is not, the struggles that men and women go through are not symmetrical. And this is something like, I, so I started my career in dating advice. So like, I've written, I started writing about this stuff like, 2008.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  And the asymmetry in dating problems is, uh, it is part of the problem because women only see the problem that women have. They don't see the problem that men have. And so it's very easy for women to be like, "Wow, men have it so easy. They can just, you know, send dick pics to a hundred women and, you know, whoever, the one that responds."

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  If only that worked.

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? It's like, the one that responds is like, you know, he, he'll actually go out with her. Whereas men only see the men's problems. They don't see the women's problems. So they think, "Oh, wow, women have it so easy. They just like, post a hot picture and they get like, all these, uh, simps fawning over them all the time." Right? And they don't understand that, like, women don't understand that men have the issue of...

• 1:40:03Speaker 02

  To be effective in the dating market as a man, you have to be willing to be rejected a lot. Like, that is just a fact that you're gonna have to

• 1:40:14Speaker 02

  make your peace with at some point. And women don't see that. And what men don't see is that if you're a woman, if you're an attractive woman, you are gonna get a lot of attention from a lot of men that you don't want attention from. And that is also something you're gonna figure out how to deal with. And I think what, because the two problems on each side, well, I think on the men's side, they see the women's problem, and they're like, "That's not a problem. I would love that problem." And, but they don't understand that it is actually a problem. Like, you, filtering effectively is, it is a very difficult problem for a lot of women. And a lot of them struggle with it quite a bit. And I think women,

• 1:40:59Speaker 02

  you know, women say like, "Man, I, I wish I could message 20 guys and get responses and, you know, like, I wish I had more control over who I actually got to talk to." But they don't, they don't see the rejection side of it. They don't see just like, the constant bruising your self-esteem takes. You know, when message after message goes un-replied to. So, it's,

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  it's not easy for anybody. And it never has been easy for anybody. I think that's another narrative that is very easy to sell. It's very easy to say like, you know, "Back in your parents' generation, they just did this, and it was so easy." And it's like, well, no, they, they also struggled with these issues. It looked a lot different. In many ways, it was less complex, but that doesn't mean it was any easier.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I very much agree. So, I had no game with women whatsoever. Like, none. It's probably good that I didn't find that community. I was a little before the pick-up artist time. But I, luckily, I knew a guy that was really good with women. And by then, I was so fed up. Because I was the guy that everyone tells you not to be. So I would show up on date one with literal flowers and literal, custom-written poetry. I once asked a girl out in a poem, like, custom-written for her. And she rejected it, no date. Like, I was just like, oh, god.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  But I could not understand why they weren't working. It was everything that I was told women were into. And so, it's the, I lived the nice guy thing. I was never a dick about it, but I was starting to be like, I don't understand why this isn't working. Like, I'm, these are good poems, like, what the fuck is the problem? And I was very surprised. Thankfully, I turned inward and was like, I'm doing something wrong. That is very clear to me. I don't know what it is, I don't understand it, but I'm doing something wrong. So I went and asked a guy who was very successful, and was just like, what do you do? And he's like, oh, be an asshole. And I was like, oh, my god. And it was one of, I just, I was like, okay, I know that isn't true. I know that's not the path forward, because these are people.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  And nobody wants to be with an asshole. So what is it that women are drawn to that's led this to be the cliche? And that's when I realized, oh, he's willing to walk away. So what he means is, aloof isn't quite the right word. But it has to be that, like, I'm self-assured, I don't need you. I might want you, but I don't need you. And so it creates a far more interesting dynamic. And thankfully, I'd been so bad with women, there was this, my crush in high school. Every time we would date, she would break up with me, because she's like, you're different when we're together. And I just could not understand what she meant. Now, what she meant was, when we were not together, I was just myself. We'd get together, and then I was afraid I'd lose her. So I would start being cautious and all that. And so I, I, too young, couldn't make it make sense.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  So in my book Models, I actually, that was the term I used, was non-neediness. And as like the root of attraction.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  It's, and I think what happens is a lot of the toxic advice, you know, for men, the toxic advice is basically teaching them how to be an asshole. It's basically a guy saying, you know, you've been on the losing end of the power struggle. Here's how to be on the winning end of the power struggle. Not realizing that it's the power struggle itself that is the problem.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  And so, you know, for me, non-needyness is, let's take the, let's take the part of being an asshole that benefits you, which is not being needy. And, and then let's like, lose the asshole part. Let's be respectful and non-needy. How about that? And to me, that's like, if you can figure out how to do that, like develop the skillset to be non-needy and respectful of people, which being respectful requires the willingness to hear no and be rejected, and not be butthurt about it.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  You know, if you can get to that point, then you're pretty much set.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  And go be awesome at something.

• 1:45:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Cause you're gonna get your own self-respect. This is something I worry a lot about, is that people just aren't earning their own respect. And if you don't earn your own respect, that's gonna drip off of you. And you're gonna have a very hard time convincing somebody else to respect you if you haven't figured that out. So being awesome at something that you care about, ideally being awesome at something you care about that the kind of woman you're trying to attract would also care about. That goes a long way, but even if you can't line that up, like at least be really focused and attentive on something that matters to you, that you're passionate about. Like, people I know have heard this before. It's like, there's something about hearing someone talk about what they're passionate about, even if you don't care about it, even if you don't know about it. When somebody's like really into something and they're able to convey that, it's like, whoa.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  They light up, you realize they have a life beyond you, that, that they're more integrated in some way that makes them very attractive. I know you've said that you're attracted to women who are ambitious.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Which I thought was interesting. Tell me more about that.

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  I don't know where that comes from. It's just something I noticed over the years dating a lot of women. Like, I, I was never able to...

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Like I dated a number of women who were beautiful, happy to be like the traditional, like cook dinner for you when you get home, make the bed for you, you know, take care of the house, make my life easy, like the very, very old fashioned, like, you know, 1950s Leave It To Beaver type housewife. And I would get so bored, so fast. And, and there was nothing, you know, there's nothing wrong with them, it was just the way they were, and they were really nice, nice women. But I found that I, I need a woman who is very smart and very motivated in the world, to do something in the world.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  Like that's just, it turns me on more than anything. And, and I just learned that about myself, like everybody, that doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just different. And I do think, one of the problems that people have, you know, I do think you need to, this is why you shouldn't, well, it's not that you shouldn't marry your high school sweetheart, it's just, it's not.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  Odds are against you.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  The odds are against you, is because you do need to be exposed to a certain number of people and value systems to really, really know and understand like what you mesh well with, and, and what, what excites you in a partner. And, and so, I do, for, for people who have not had enough dating experience to really have clarity around that, I do think it's useful. I think the, the bad version of that advice is, you need to date around enough to have enough sex with enough people that you like get it out of your system, like that's kind of the bad version of that advice. The reason that is the bad version of that advice is because sex is not something you

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  get out of your system, it's, it's a behavior that you, you know, you condition within yourself. So if, if you, if you start conditioning yourself to want to have sex with a lot of people, then you're only gonna keep wanting to have sex with a lot of people, like it doesn't work in reverse. So it's, it's.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  You don't think that people get fed up? And there is that emptiness that you were talking about before?

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Um, I don't think so. I think it's, it's kind of like, it's very similar to, you know, so back in the 60s and 70s, they, they used to have this form of therapy where like. If you had anger issues, then you like scream into a pillow and beat the crap out of the pillow and that was supposed to like release your anger, right? Like this, it's this concept of like, they, it's, in, in the research, they call it like the hydraulic theory of emotion or, or impulse. And the idea was like, you just get the anger out and then you won't be angry when you go home. Well, what, what it turns out that actually happens is, the more you scream into that pillow and punch the pillow, the more you're, kind of the same way you're like training yourself when you compliment your wife, to compliment your wife more, you're training

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  yourself to like scream and punch pillows more. And so you're actually reinforcing the- That's interesting. The emotion you're trying to get away from. You're practicing being angry. And so, I've seen so many young men be like, "Well, I met this woman that I'm crazy about, but, you know, I've only slept with like, I've only had like five sexual partners and that doesn't seem like it's enough. I should have more than that before I settle down with somebody. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna like, put, like, get rid of this really great relationship that makes me happy, so I can go fuck five anonymous strangers that I'm never gonna think about or care about again." And it's like somehow that seems like a very rational decision to a lot of young men. And I say this as a, as a, I used to be a young man, that this seemed very rational to.

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Um, I can, on the, being on the other side of that, I can tell you it's not a rational decision. And having a lot of friends and, and just knowing a lot of men who have made that choice, like, it is not the correct choice. You are actually just reinforcing the behavior that you want to get out of your system. So, um, so that's the bad version of that advice. The good version of that advice is, you need to date enough to understand what makes you happy. Right? Like, as you said, like, a lot, a lot of us have predefined scripts or assumptions about like what a good partner is, things that our parents told us, things that our church or our teachers or our community told us.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  And we don't actually know until we've actually gone out and dated those people. And I think what most people experience is that- You finally date that person who in your head was the perfect 10 and you get a month into it and you're like, this isn't a 10, this is like a 6. Like, I'm actually not that happy here. And that's, that's a very important thing to realize and understand about yourself.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, Lisa and I have always used the analogy of finding somebody that you really can jam with and be into for a long period of time isn't like two puzzle pieces coming together. It's like two ripped pages with all these intricate jagged little edges. And finding somebody that you line up with enough of those, you're like, ooh, this is like really gonna fit.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Is, it's, I don't think there's one person for everybody. I think that there's probably a large number of people that you could meet, no matter where you live, you're gonna find this kind of person. But they're not on every street corner, that's for sure. And so if you find it, it's like, I'm not interested in like constantly looking for the next model. And that was one thing that I said to Lisa when we got together. I was like, you never, and I mean never, have to worry about me ditching you and upgrading to a younger version of you. I'm like, that's not my scene, that's not the, you know, experiment that we're running together here. It's like, I wanna know what it looks like to build a life together. And so we won't even joke about the word divorce, it's just not even on the table, it's not an option.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  We wouldn't stay if it was loveless or if one of us was abusive. But it's like, since we know how to avoid that.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Then it's like, that's just not even on the table. And it really does create a far more interesting dynamic. But yeah, when you've got, and I, God, did I ever think I need to bang more chicks? No, I did not, but I will say it became, so for a long time, I wanted to save myself for marriage. And then I realized, uh, that no longer strikes me as a good idea. And so then it was like, okay, I did wanna have a certain amount of experience. I didn't have a number in my head where I was like, I need to hit that number. But I was like, yeah, I don't wanna marry the first person I sleep with, that is for sure.

• 1:52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I do think some amount of sexual experience is probably good to have. But I think the way it gets framed for a lot of young men is just, it's silly.

• 1:53:11Speaker 02

  You know, have enough sex to know what you like and don't like, and date enough people to know what you like and don't like. And then if you find a great person that it feels great, go with it.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  It's interesting how much, at least for me, personality plays into everything. The loneliest I have ever been in my life was in the middle of having sex with somebody I didn't care about. Who I just, I didn't have any connection. I couldn't even be like, and we both like basketball. Like, there was nothing.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is really boring. And it was so ironic to me to be like, I'm literally inside your body and I feel completely alone. Like, so weird. So yeah, that was never gonna be the path that I ended up on.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  But, yeah.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  I think the potential for awkwardness of one-night stands is also under discussed, especially among men and young men. Like, it's, there's, there's still so much validation and self-esteem that is like wrapped up in, in sex and, and for men in particular, that...

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  It's also really fun.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  It is fun, and it can be super fun. Like, I've had a, a lot of one-night stands that were a blast and great memories. And, and I've had a lot of one-night stands that were terrible and super awkward and completely disconnected and, and embarrassing. And it's, but, you know, people don't talk about that side of it. It's like, the, the enjoyment of a one-night stand, you know, the, the hit rate is, is not that high.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Give me your most awkward one-night stand.

• 1:54:51Speaker 02

  Most awkward?

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  It's been a long time, man. I don't know. You know, there, there's just a number of...

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  Well, it's usually alcohol is involved, first of all. You know, there, there are a number of instances of, you know, waking up the next day next to a girl that... I don't really remember anything about her.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Oh god.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Not particularly attracted to her. And you just kind of wonder like, why am I here? But then, you know, I was so young and immature at that time that I, you know, the, the significance of like, yeah, I got laid, you know, kind of outweighed all that other stuff. But, you know, if I'm being honest, as an older, as an, as, as an old man, uh, if I'm.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Easy chief, since you're, you know, much younger than me.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  If I'm looking back and being honest, uh, in a vacuum, it was not, uh, it was not an enjoyable experience.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:55:48Speaker 02

  Uh, and it probably wasn't for her either. But this is, this is, so this is back in the, the pickup artist industry. This is what I always used to say, and it, it would make guys really, really uncomfortable, which is, men come to that industry for, for the approval of women. They stay for the approval of men.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  Because I think a lot of the guys, like, look, every guy wants to have some sexual experiences. Every guy wants to be able to have a little bit more power and options in, in his dating life. But the men who obsess over it and like really kind of become compulsive about it, it's, it's never about the women. It's about, it's about the approval from other men.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  And it's,

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  it's, it took me a long time to kind of figure that out about myself. Uh, and I think, and it was an important realization.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  And I think it's, it's just something that needs to be said, especially to guys who, who like that sort of content and consume a lot of it. Like, you're not consuming all that content for the women.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  You actually said something that I wrote down along these lines about what people are actually pursuing in life. I think this is really interesting. This is a paraphrase, but people care about who they're with, what they're pursuing, and what people think about them. That's 80 to 90% of life.

• 1:57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  That's razor sharp, insightful.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, I think we like to imagine that

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  our happiness and meaning is tied up in all these like very complicated philosophical issues. And at the end of the day, it's like, who are you spending time with? What are you working on? And how are you treating yourself? Like, are you taking care of your health or not? And if you can nail those three things, yeah, you're like eighty, ninety percent of the way there. Like, all, all the other stuff is just

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  window dressing.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  And what do you think about from a Buddhist perspective of detaching, letting go, not being so obsessed around those if they're so all consuming? And, and I agree with your earlier assessment that you're never going to not care about what other people think. And you probably shouldn't even try to not care, but it, it can become all consuming and very pathological.

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  So how, do the Buddhists have the right answer to that? Like, what, what is the way to put that in its proper place?

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  I, I am not

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  a strict philosophical Buddhist, you know, I see-

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  You had a Zen teacher. You are exactly the only person I know with a Zen teacher.

• 1:58:35Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I, I studied Buddhism and practiced Buddhism for a number of years. But I, it's funny, I don't consider myself a Buddhist. I consider myself influenced by Buddhism. I, I see a lot of the Buddhist insights as like tools, right? So to me, non-attachment is,

• 1:58:52Speaker 02

  it's a tool, or it is a,

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  it's kind of like a mindset or an approach of just reminding yourself of like,

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  yes, social validation, it can make you happy or unhappy. But like, don't ever forget that it's not really real. Like, these are just, these are just chemicals firing in your brain and, as you said, like subroutines of, of our, our consciousness. And, um, you know, whether the, the friends I had dinner with last night didn't laugh at my jokes, like what, whether that matters or not, you know, it's all in my head. So I think that's a useful perspective to be able to access at certain moments to kind of keep yourself stable and sane.

• 1:59:44Speaker 02

  I think Buddhism takes it to an extreme where it's like, nothing matters, like there's, nothing exists, it's all imagined. And that may be true, but I don't find that very practical when you're like, trying to live in LA and have a career and have a family.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  It's interesting. So as you consider yourself influenced by Buddhism, I consider myself influenced by Taoism. And for quite some time, actually called myself a Taoist. That led me to exploring Buddhism, looking at it. I'm far more familiar with Taoism than I am Buddhism. But the, I really looked at the idea of non-attachment, completely letting go. And the irony is, I think that they are right, that all of suffering really does stem from, I want this thing, and that thing can be, I wanted this outcome from this moment. I wanted the Christmas to go better. I wanted the joke to be funnier, whatever. But it's, it's an attachment to a thing, a desired outcome, whatever.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  And when I look at my own suffering, it is always tied to that.

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  But I, when I project my life out where I live a monastic life, just like, wow, I really, I would give up some suffering. I wouldn't suffer as much, that is for sure. But also the depth of the joy, the honor of being able to put myself in the arena and see what I can accomplish.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  And the bad news is that, you know, for all I've accomplished, I set my sights higher and higher, which you have warned people not to do.

• 2:01:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  But I enjoy that quest because I have a very healthy understanding that the most likely outcome is failure.

• 2:01:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  And so I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm continually ratcheting this up. At some point, you try to climb a mountain so high you die. It's just like this, hey, Mount Everest is literally littered with the bodies of people that have tried. So I'm aware of that, but even in the face of that, I find myself wanting to embrace the challenge of mountain climbing over, and it would still be a challenge, the challenge of a monastic life. That feels to me like... Tapping out, you get an amazing reward for it.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  But it doesn't feel like making the most of this human experience.

• 2:02:06Speaker 02

  I think it sounds, I think you and I align on this. It's funny, I have a friend who's a meditation teacher and like pretty intense Buddhist, and I've talked to him about this before. And the point I always come back to is, is like, look, 2,500 years ago, you weren't giving up a whole lot by going and sitting in a cave and staring at a wall for 10 years. Like, there wasn't much happening outside of that cave either, right? So, whereas these days, like, yeah, there's a huge, there's a bounty of complexity and amazing culture and society and everything.

• 2:02:45Speaker 02

  I think, to me, the way I have kind of, I guess, integrated the Buddhist wisdom into my own approach to what you just described is, I think the wisdom that it lends is, when you're climbing that mountain, don't forget that it's just a mountain, and you chose to climb it, and you can choose to stop climbing it at any time. To me, that's what non-attachment means. You know, I think it's, and in Buddhism, they're very explicit about this, that when you, when you get very good at non-attachment, or even achieve enlightenment, you don't stop suffering. You just stop being attached to that suffering, or identifying with that suffering. It's like suffering just becomes yet another sensation that passes like a cloud.

• 2:03:31Speaker 02

  And so, nothing actually practically changes outward in your life. It's simply the, the mental constructs. I guess you could say it's the realization that everything is simply a mental construct that is arising and falling, falling in your consciousness. You know, I love the, the old Zen saying where it's, they say, "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." And I, I relate to that on, I guess, a much less profound or spiritual level. You know, just... Growing older and more successful. Like, I look at my ambition in my twenties, and maybe you relate to this,

• 2:04:13Speaker 02

  but my ambition in my twenties, it was very driven by like, I need to prove something. Like, I have to, I need to make a bunch of money. I need to be successful. I need to like, show that I'm smart and that I'm doing something cool and great and impress a bunch of people. And then you achieve a bunch of those things and you realize that none of it really sticks or makes you happy. And now it's like, now I just, I wanna achieve things just because it's fun to achieve things. It's fun to create things in the world. It's fun to improve lives. And like, there's no need to prove something. There's nothing I'm trying to like, show to myself or to anybody.

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  Really? Even not to yourself?

• 2:04:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, like you said, I really resonate with, you know, it's that comfort with failure. You know, it's like, I'm investing, I'm gonna do, try to do, over the next couple of years, I'm gonna do a bunch of stuff with my YouTube channel. I completely recognize that it may end up not being worth it. It may not go nearly as well as I wanted to or hoped that it will. And I'm comfortable with that. Whereas I think 10 years ago, that would have been mortifying, that idea, you know, of like, a book coming out and not doing super well. Like, that would have been mortifying 10 years ago, or even five years ago. You know, now it's kinda like, well, that's just, I'm gonna have a long career and I'm not gonna hit a home run every time.

• 2:05:38Speaker 02

  So, and it's actually very similar to what we were saying about, you know, when you're insecure, you see everything as a power struggle and you wanna get from the losing side to the winning side. And then, once you're on the winning side, you realize the real way to win is to stop the power struggle and just opt out of the game altogether. And I think it's the same with kind of a pursuit of success. You know, when you've experienced no success, you just wanna get to success. You don't really care how. But then, once you get to success, you're like, wow, I don't feel any different. And so, then you just realize that the construct of success is completely made up and you've been torturing yourself for 10 years for no reason.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Interesting. Success is such a mixed bag because I think you will agree that the money's real.

• 2:06:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  It's very powerful.

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  But it cannot change how you feel about yourself.

• 2:06:35Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  And people think it's going to make them feel cool.

• 2:06:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  And it doesn't. And all of your insecurities, I remember when it literally for me was in an instant. I'd spent god knows how long building companies, but the day that the money hit was like all in one refresh of my banking app. And I was like, oh, wow. What's the Mark Twain quote? Wherever you go, there you are.

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  It's like however much money you have, there you are. It's like, it didn't matter. And I was like, oh, God. Thankfully, I already knew that. So it was not like some big surprising moment. But I thought this is how people really spiral out of control because they're expecting in that moment for, you know, something to change and for the world that more colors or something. And it's like, oh, I'm in this new class and everything is different. But money really does buy cool shit. And you can do amazing things. It was actually really interesting hearing you talk about Will Smith. For people that don't know, you wrote, Ghost wrote, wrote? No, your name's in the thing.

• 2:07:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, co-wrote.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  Co-wrote his autobiography. And that, the fact that you've been able to see firsthand how somebody of like his stature moves through the world, it's pretty interesting.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  But you said, yes, but I'm glad it's not my life.

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  And that, I thought, put a pretty interesting point on it.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's an optimal level of fame and I'm probably pretty close to it already. Maybe a little bit past it. I would not want to be as famous as him. The money, I mean, sure, I'll take Will Smith money. Like, I would have no complaint about Will Smith money. I don't need Will Smith money, but that's not the problem. It's, I definitely think, you know, the curve of happiness to fame is, is a bell curve and...

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  Of declining utility. So it peaks and then goes back down.

• 2:08:32Speaker 02

  And I think there's actually very large costs on, like, far on the other side. That, yeah, I don't, like, you lose privacy, you, there's security concerns, there's all sorts of stuff, you know?

• 2:08:50Tom Bilyeu?

  I think the optimal level of fame is probably where both of us are at. You know, it's like you get recognized on the street just enough to like make your day, but it never interferes with your life.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel invisible still, which is lovely, but every now and then someone will come up and it's like, oh.

• 2:09:08Tom Bilyeu?

  You're like, ah, that feels good.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's cool. Brother, I'm so into what you're doing. I can't wait to see what you do on YouTube. Where can people follow you?

• 2:09:17Tom Bilyeu?

  Uh, follow me on YouTube, Mark Manson, or markmanson.net.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  I like it. All right, everybody, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.

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