How to Save Humanity From Collapse, Cults, and Collective Rage | Jamie Wheal (Fan Fav)

This is a Fan Fav episode. This episode today takes the plunge and leans off the edge with Jamie Wheal unpacking the depth and complexities he’s addressing in his latest book, Recapture the Rapture. The conversation is heavy and will challenge you to rethink your stance and what leaning into our global community could be for you. ORIGINAL AIR DATE: 4-29-21 Order Jamie Wheal’s new book, Recapture the Rapture: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DNT8B9B/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0 SHOW NOTES: Loss of Meaning | A break down of the conflicting directions of major institutions [3:33] Meta Crisis | Jamie details the complexity of meta crisis and where it intersects [12:06] Acceleration | Jamie on why rushing to clean the slate is ignorant of history [18:56] Narrative Problem | Jamie breaks down coming alive vs. staying alive, narrative or reality [28:37] Tribalism | Jamie reveals what unhealthy tribalism is versus healthy that is for community [32:16] 4 Cult Responses | Jamie explains the 4 feelings and 4 responses to cult leaders [44:44] Global Rage | Jamie on the human initiative and the propensity for collective rage [57:14] Cultural Architect | Escaping doomsday and thriving into the future [1:10:21] Big 5 | Jamie reveals the big 5 evolutionary drivers, discusses healing and peak states [1:20:15] Out of Hand | Jamie shares why people don’t know what they’re doing, forgiving ourselves [1:47:11] Omega Point | Jamie reveals the point where death and rebirth come together [1:58:02] CHECK OUT OUR SPONSORS Vital Proteins: Get 20% off by going to ⁠https://www.vitalproteins.com⁠ https://www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code IMPACT at check out Allio Capital: Macro investing for people who want to understand the big picture. Download their app in the App Store or at Google Play, or text my name “TOM” to 511511. SleepMe: Visit ⁠https://sleep.me/impact⁠ https://sleep.me/impact to get your Chilipad and save 20% with code IMPACT. Try it risk-free with their 30-night sleep trial and free shipping. ButcherBox: Ready to level up your meals? Go to ⁠https://butcherbox.com/impact⁠ https://butcherbox.com/impact to get $20 off your first box and FREE bacon for life with the Bilyeu Box! Netsuite: Download the new e-book Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders at ⁠http://NetSuite.com/Theory⁠ http://netsuite.com/TheoryShopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at ⁠https://shopify.com/impact⁠ https://shopify.com/impactHims: Start your free online visit today at ⁠https://hims.com/IMPACT⁠ https://hims.com/IMPACT. ********************************************************************** What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: If you want my help... STARTING a business:⁠ join me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show: ⁠https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show SCALING a business:⁠ see if you qualify here.⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/call: ⁠https://tombilyeu.com/call⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/call Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:⁠ sign up here.⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/: ⁠https://tombilyeu.com/⁠ https://tombilyeu.com/ ********************************************************************** FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:⁠ https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/⁠ https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:⁠ https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en⁠ https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:⁠ https://twitter.com/tombilyeu⁠ https://twitter.com/tombilyeu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

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• 1:07Speaker 01

  This content is intended for mature audiences only. Viewer discretion is advised.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  You're listening to the Impact Theory Podcast, your source of empowering ideas and actionable techniques from the world's highest achievers. Join host Tom Bilyeu, serial entrepreneur and co-founder of the billion-dollar brand Quest Nutrition, on a journey to unlock your potential and realize your vision of success. Welcome to Impact.

• 1:38Tom Bilyeu?

  Everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. You're here, my friends, because you believe that human potential is nearly limitless, but you know that having potential is not the same as actually doing something with it. So our goal with this show and company is to introduce you to the people and ideas that are going to help you actually execute on your dreams. All right. Today's guest is hard to fit in a box. He's the executive director of the Flow Genome Project and has been tapped to help unlock employee performance by Fortune 500 companies such as Cisco, Nike, Google, and Red Bull. But he's also well-versed in mystical experiences and Burning Man. Growing up, he took huge risks as an adventure athlete, willing to risk everything for those fleeting moments where he was outside of himself and free of the monkey mind.

• 2:22Tom Bilyeu?

  But realizing how dangerous and clumsy of an approach that actually is, he and partner Steven Kotler have committed to delivering the elusive state of flow from the world of hard-to-reproduce mysticism to the world of hard science by mapping the genome of flow with scientific rigor by 2020. This endeavor has already made him the recognized expert in the $4 trillion Altered States of Consciousness economy and turned him into a much sought-after speaker and consultant on the neurophysiology of ultimate human performance. You had me at ultimate human performance. His work ranges from advising high-growth companies and hedge funds to running expeditionary leadership courses and helping optimize the most elite warriors on the planet. Half of the things that I came across in my research,

• 3:07Tom Bilyeu?

  I had to look up to fully understand. And every new thing I encountered made me feel like this guy is the ayahuasca spirit guide for an elevated and optimized daily life. Please, help me in welcoming the co-author of the relentlessly intriguing book, "Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, the Navy Seals, and Maverick Scientists Are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work", the midwife of transient hypofrontality himself, Jamie Wheal.

• 3:38Tom Bilyeu?

  How you doing? Good to see you. Welcome. Thanks for having me, man. Good to see you again. Dude, good to see you as well. Very good to have you on the show. I don't normally start with diving into terms and defining things, but I have a feeling where we're going to go by the end of this interview is going to get pretty interesting, maybe a little esoteric. So why don't we start with, what are the states of altered consciousness?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Sure, I mean, altered states of consciousness just means anything other than waking normal. And so that can include everything from dreams to visions to schizophrenic states, a whole broad swath. In our book, Stealing Fire, we actually kind of narrow that down. And we focus on what Johns Hopkins psychiatrist Stan Grof called non-ordinary states of consciousness. And under that, we zeroed in on three big categories. So meditation and mystical states, and in this case, you know, classical sitting meditation, the kind of thing that people are familiar with, but then also any of the states that are produced by dancing, by movement, by sexuality, by these days, smart tech, you know, whether it's little things on your phone or more complex devices, so any of those states.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Flow states, which as we've discussed, are those moments of in-the-zone performance, again, typically for artists and athletes, and then psychedelic states. And there's been this recent renaissance in sanctioned research in, you know, chemicals that interact with our neurochemistry and produce very, very pronounced and fairly persistent, different or altered states of consciousness. So that's, those are the three: meditation, flow, and psychedelic states, under which we then had to kind of come up with a bigger name or term. And since, since the baby boomers and kind of hippies kind of ran a lot of them into the ground, we were like, okay, we can't use any of that language, we have to wind the clock all the way back. So let's go all the way back to word origins, back to the ancient Greek. And we figured, okay, extasis, which in the Greek is the antecedent for the word ecstasy,

• 5:32Speaker 02

  which if you sort of get beyond the club drug references, this sort of just means literally that which moves us beyond ourself.

• 5:38Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  So non-ordinary states are those that typically take us out of everyday waking consciousness, where I am self-aware and have an inner narrative going on, to those states beyond that. And then there's a whole host of additional qualities we can talk about.

• 5:50Tom Bilyeu?

  You've likened the inner narrative to our inner Woody Allen.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:54Tom Bilyeu?

  I found that, yeah, that's exactly what it feels like, right? Someone who's essentially heckling you within your own life.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:01Tom Bilyeu?

  Uh, which is painful to know that it's coming from your own mind, which, how much do you know about like what they've done with severing the corpus callosum and creating literal duality in people's minds?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's some, Sam Harris in his book, Waking Us, talks about that. I think it's one of the most fascinating parts of that book. And I think that's, it's a, gives us a great, you know, just empirical kind of A B testing on what do we think of as ourselves? And to what extent is our consciousness or conscious waking part, the part that can point to stuff and name it and call it out, actually calling the show. Right. And actually, neuroscientist David Eagleman, who's a dear friend of ours and on our advisory board, he teaches at Stanford. He's, in his book, Incognito, and several of his others, he makes that great case, too. He's like, look, basically, our conscious mind is no more than the headlines on the Sunday Times, you know, compared to the entire week's news.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And so that fact that what we think of as ourselves and what we're actually in real time able to name, point out and talk about is, you know, a percent at most of all the data we're experiencing, all the sensations and inputs, is, you know, fascinating and or terrifying, depending on your point of view, and potentially liberating. Because if we can get access to more of that bitstream and we can integrate it into our choices, our decisions, and even our inspiration, we have access to a lot more bandwidth. It's like going from dial-up to fiber optic in a heartbeat. Is that why this has become sort of your life's work? I mean, I think, maybe on a sort of like cognitive level, on like an intellectual level, but really, it's, it's become my life's work because I just realized it's the only

• 7:36Speaker 02

  thing that makes me tick. It's the only thing that gets me up out of bed in the morning. We have, we have a sort of inside joke, the first rule of flow clubs, you never talk about flow club, like, don't talk about it, just go do it, live it, shut up, you know, like, and, and so for me, I just realized I'm a lazy, unmotivated bastard when it comes down to it. You and me both. I am. There it is. And, and so I just noticed that and I'm like, wow. And then I noticed everybody else, too, which was, it felt like we're drowning in information and we're starving for motivation. So like, new ideas about, you know, ten, top 10 listicles about how to live better or be more productive and all that kind of stuff. I think there's, there's a sort of false promise there. Because like, that's not the weak link. The weak link is, do I have enough drive in myself to do these things?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  And if we can unlock intrinsic motivation, if we can unlock that I can't help but go do this because it, it fulfills me, and we can connect that to long-term development, then I think we got something much more potent and potentially transformative than post-it notes or affirmations. Talk to me about the $4 trillion economy that's

• 8:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Grown up around people's desire to mess with their own brain chemistry.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, this is kind of a crazy story, actually, because we had mapped the, you know, the neurobiology of the flow state, you know, that's the genome of the flow, kind of part of our organization. And so we realized, ah, when you're in 21st century normal, it has a very consistent signature. It's fast beta brainwaves, it's prefrontal cortical activity, a lot of kind of just fight or flight stress hormones, but they're just kind of left on slow drip. So nor-epinephrine cortisol, our hot, not surprisingly, our heart, our heart rate variability is kind of all over the place, jaggedy, look like the stock market instead of a nice sine wave, right? Our postures are often hunched, our respiration is partial and shallow, poor air exchange, pooled up CO2, brain's not

• 9:25Speaker 02

  getting fully oxygenated. Like, there's this kind of predictable stack. And when we feel, like most of us feel most of the time, it looks like that under the hood. And alternately, in these non-ordinary states, all of that stuff shifts, and it shifts kind of, you know, to the right, at least on a sort of nominal two-by-two chart of it. And it becomes slower brainwaves, alpha or theta, it becomes deactivated or hyperactivated brain activity in different regions lighting up and turning off. It requires neurotransmitters that flush out the stress chemicals and replace them with reward and feel-good chemicals, dopamine, endorphins, and nandamide, those kinds of things. Respiration tends to become more relaxed and belly breathing, you get better air exchange, posture tends to follow, shoulders

• 10:08Speaker 02

  relax and fall back, head above, you know, head above shoulders, all these kind of things. You're like, wow. So that's an interesting signature. And what we realized was, this actually applies not just to flow states. This applies to meditative states, this applies to other mystically induced states, this applies to psychedelic states. And we realized, okay, now we've got almost a Rosetta Stone. You know, if you remember like back in when, I think it was Napoleon's era, they discovered that tablet that had Greek, Demotic Greek, and Egyptian hieroglyphs, all saying the same sentence, all in one place. So they could translate and they could decode the grammar of it.

• 10:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  And that unlocked access to these languages that had been hidden. Well, you know, and that- That genome of flow became our Rosetta Stone. And it let us unlock, we were like, oh, well, you know, flow states were the domain of artists and athletes. And meditative states were the domains of, you know, mystics and meditators, or sort of saints, you know, pious folk, monks. And then psychedelics were sort of hippies and ravers. Right. And none of those communities would ever talk to each other. They'd walk past each other on the street and not bat an eye. And we're like, oh, well, wait a sec. Actually, your practices, the doors you're going through are all completely different. But the place you're getting to, remarkably similar. Right. So as soon as we had that insight, we're like, well, let's see. Are we full of it? Is this just a hypothesis that doesn't bear out?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  And we said, let's, let's actually do a hard economic analysis. And let's take a look at how much time and money are people spending seeking those, those states, that profile, that signature. Right. And so we backed into it. And we took a look at the obvious, licit and illicit pharmaceuticals. So everything from alcohol, tobacco, nicotine, all the way over to, you know, legal and illegal marijuana, all the way to on, on and off prescription pharmaceuticals, Oxycontin, painkillers, psychiatric meds, that whole neck of the world. That was over 2.2 trillion dollars. Right, just, just alone. Then we went into, you know, not just compounds that we can ingest to shift our state, but the entire psychotherapeutic self-help space helped me get, coached me, or teach me to get out of my waking state consciousness, feel happier, et cetera.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  And that was billions more. And then we took a look at immersive media. The idea of immersive media, I mean, we talked about IMAX. We talked about even just binge watching, right? I mean, Netflix has done all their algorithms. And the idea of, like, even the fact that the next show pops up before the last one finishes, like, they've coded it. And they've even found that, like, comedies aren't that good for binge watching, but what is is serial dramas. So that's why House of Cards, like, because I'm now hung up on a cliffhanger. Right. I can't wait to have the dopamine hit of the reward of the next thing, and I'll stay up. I thought I was just gonna watch one and go to bed. Six of them later, it's 3 a.m. And I'm still gonna go for that last son of a bitch to get my payoff, right? So, so those are all the categories. And we realized, like, IMAX, you know, giant 40-foot screens, huge subwoofers, right? The ability to be in the dark.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  I've lost, not unlike a sensory deprivation tank. I lose the boundaries of myself. I'm connected to other people who are. You know, booing and gasping and clapping and cheering. The sound, George Lucas, right, famously said, you know, he said, movies are 50% audio. Right. And so huge sound, huge screens. We travel further, we pay more for those tickets. We don't just stream them at home or go to our local Cineplex. So that's a state shifting choice. We pay a premium for.

• 13:20Tom Bilyeu?

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• 14:02Tom Bilyeu?

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• 14:44Tom Bilyeu?

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• 15:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Promo code IMPACT. It's completely risk-free with a 30-day money-back guarantee. And you said something about that you were like, we don't go that far out of our way and pay the additional premium for, to see better movies. We go there to feel something more.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's the premise or payoff of IMAX. You like lose yourself more, right? And for two or three hours, project onto the screen, mirror neurons, all that kind of thing. I mean, our brains aren't evolutionarily wired to distinguish between what's on the screen and what's, we're actually proceeding through our own eyes. That's why those initial silent movies with the train coming and everyone bailed out of their seats, right? So that's the premise of IMAX. Binge-watching, we've just talked about. And you know, that notion of it gets out of hand, right? I planned one, I ended up watching eight, right? That's a sign of the neurochem happening. Streaming pornography is a great example because if you think about it, why do we do it? There's no evolutionary payoff. If I succeed at watching porn, I do not propagate the gene pool one bit.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  But what I do do is I create a state of pronounced physiological arousal, right? And a state of sated neurochemistry that I find appealing. And if you think about that one, you know, like, there's a book called Salt, Sugar, Fat by a Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times author. He basically talks about how the food industry has hacked what they call the bliss point.

• 16:52Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, yes.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  And they literally, I mean, they schemed for it. And this is why we have Chili's and TGI Fridays and the Cheesecake Factory, right? And they basically figured out that salt, sugar, and fat were both very, all three, rare sensations. Salt, essential mineral. You can only get it at salt lakes in certain places. Sugar, you know, was only available in berry season for two weeks. No refrigerators, no shipping, right? Two weeks of berry season or honeycomb and that was it, right? And fat, easy to spoil. So anytime in our evolutionary history, we had access to that stuff. It was just like, the signal was just get as much as you can while you can, right? And now, we can't stop. We can't turn it off. So you get two Krispy Kremes between a bacon cheeseburger? And that's a thing, man. That exists in the world, believe it or not. And people lose their minds.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  And 70% of adult American men are obese. Right?

• 17:40Tom Bilyeu?

  It's crazy.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Right? And so, and so you put sexuality in that same category. Right? So food, water, sex, three prime, you know, primary evolutionary drivers. And now we have untapped access to perennially sexually available mates with no contest from peers.

• 17:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Because we provided access to all this stuff now in ways that were never ever available.

• 18:01Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  People have no checks and balances anymore. So the ability to massively overshoot the market in pursuing these states is absolutely there. And it's a clear and present danger. So all things-

• 18:10Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you think we need checks and balances?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the evidence would suggest that without them, if we just provide unlimited access to things that used to have natural ebbs and flows, you tend to get, um, you tend to get excess and you tend to get addiction, destruction and destruction.

• 18:28Tom Bilyeu?

  Let's talk about drugs. So here's the thing, I'm soup, I'm a total wuss about drugs. So I don't do drugs. I tried smoking weed. I fucking hated it. Um, I drink, but super occasionally, like I just don't mess exogenously with my neurochemistry very often.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm terrified of psychedelics, but I'm so intrigued by what lies on the other side. Like, one, do you think it's, it's, um, I'm gonna say necessary doorway? Um, is it a massive accelerator? And why should it or shouldn't it be more readily used by people?

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Okay, that's a bunch of questions.

• 19:07Tom Bilyeu?

  That's a lot of-

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so, I mean, first things first, um, if there's a premise for our book at all that I would want people to take away, it's that the door matters less than the destination.

• 19:20Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Right? And so-

• 19:21Tom Bilyeu?

  But aren't some doors gonna be easier than others?

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Some, and yeah, I mean, we even talk about it in one of the later chapters, which is like literally the extasis equation, because people always ask us, what's the best way?

• 19:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, for sure. Trust me, that's on the list of questions-

• 19:32Speaker 02

  What's the best way? And we're like, look, man, it depends. It depends on your timeframes, your risk tolerance.

• 19:36Tom Bilyeu?

  My timeframe, how long I have to get into-

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, how, I mean, if, because you, if you wanted to say, hey, I'm risk averse.

• 19:44Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Right? I have all the time in the world, right? And I want the safest, surest way, I'd say dedicate, you know, respiration practice and contemplation. Go forth and have fun.

• 19:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  And see me in ten years. If you're like, I am desperate to have some meaning, like, let's take for instance, a specific case study, a Iraqi vet.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Who's suffering from PTSD? Yeah, perfect. Right? So like, you've got time, money and access and you can choose your path and you're risk averse? Go learn to meditate, right? Yep. I'm not sure if I can live another day in my mind. Yeah. The way it is, then stronger interventions may be necessary. And in fact, MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, has been doing federally profound federally sanctioned research with trauma sufferers. So it is, it's, you know, war veterans as well as sufferers of childhood abuse and sexual abuse. So folks who life has happened to them in ways that are unfair, unsustainable, and the burden of that wounding is literally killing them.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  And in as little as one session with MDMA, and for those folks that don't know, that's the core pharmaceutical ingredient and what folks often know as ecstasy or Molly.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  And when you ingest it, it interacts with your serotonin system and it also releases dopamine and oxytocin. So you've got serotonin, dopamine and oxytocin coming into your system and it tends to leave people feeling, particularly if they have been traumatized, they can relax. They can feel safe, they can feel secure, and they're basically having the ability to go and revisit those traumatic events in ways that don't trigger their nervous system into fight or flight again. And in conjunction with skilled therapeutic talk therapy, the ability for that to release them. I mean, in fact, it's been so successful, it's been screwing up their stats. Stats.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  The MAPS, as they do this research, because the protocol was for three sessions stretched over six months. And, you know, there's been more than one, and one, Arakibadi, he's like, I did one, one session, I'm good. Wow. Saved my life, I'm not coming back. MDMA. Yeah, but in conjunction with Talk therapy. Talk therapy. Supervised. Very supervised and very structured. Johns Hopkins University is doing studies, NYU is doing studies, UCLA is doing studies, and MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association, MAPS.org, you can check in on those websites. The good news is, is that their evidence has been so overwhelmingly powerful, pronounced, effective, that the FDA is approving it not just for trauma, but also for anxiety and depression. And that's now in stage three clinical trials, I believe. Like, how does the brain rewire that fast?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question. And it doesn't just happen. The short answer is I don't know why or how it does. But I would say that it does. And it's not just pharmaceutical intervention. So the MDMA trauma stuff, actually, if you wind that story back, it first began in the 1990s with Willoughby Britton at Brown University. And she was studying NDE survivors, so near death experience folks. And she was like, look, I'm a trauma, I'm a trauma researcher. When people are traumatized, that's usually a bad thing for them.

• 23:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  But people who have had the kind of tunnel of white light, breakthrough, epiphany moments come back. And the thing that should have traumatized them actually leaves them happier than ever. And she measured that with time it takes to get into REM sleep. And this is just an interesting notion. So back to your point about like a conscious mind.

• 23:15Tom Bilyeu?

  It just gave me chills. I didn't realize there was something measurable out of this.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, it's crazy. So like, back to that notion of like conscious mind is just the top 1%.

• 23:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  You can test, how long does it take me to go and fall into REM sleep at night? And predict with clinical accuracy whether or not I'm going to be depressed six months from now.

• 23:32Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like, I won't even feel depressed yet. Six months from now, I'm going to be in the dumps, feeling that the world is at me. And I don't like my relationships and my job sucks. But six months earlier, you can tell me that by, hey, it's taking you, you're dropping into REM sleep too early. So basically, less than 100 minutes, less than 60 minutes. If I drop into REM, total clinical sign, I'm going to be depressed.

• 23:52Tom Bilyeu?

  So not how fast you fall asleep.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 23:54Tom Bilyeu?

  How fast you go into REM.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the sooner I go into REM, actually, the more, that's more of a risk factor. The longer, yeah, the longer it takes me to get into REM. So here's the fact, is that 90, 90 minutes is about average. NDE survivors were clicking it over 100 to 110, 120 minutes before they dropped in REM. And brain scans were showing that their neurology, their neural networks were permanently rewired as a result of that singular cathartic experience. So you're like, what is going on here? So, so obviously, the trouble with NDE studies is you can't repeat them in a lab. You can't nearly kill people to see if cool stuff happens.

• 24:27Tom Bilyeu?

  Can't you?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right? So, so Roland Griffiths at Johns Hopkins had a sort of slightly more elegant solution. So like, well, we can't, NDEs are accidental roll of the dice. So we can't schedule that. And how do we find more people that are truly? Facing mortality.

• 24:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  And how can we recreate this in some way? So he basically took terminal cancer patients and introduced three grams of psilocybin. It was enough that people got to an interesting place, but not so much that they had to manage wild and woolly experiences. And, and, you know, four, four out of 10 reported it being the most meaningful experience of their lives. Period. Just straight up most meaningful thing I've ever done. And I think seven or eight out of 10 said it was top five. And the results were persistent for one month, three month, six month. Basically as long as they continue to survey them.

• 25:15Tom Bilyeu?

  So then why don't people do more? Like Steve Jobs, right? For real though, like that would be my question. So, and that is the reason that I don't do it. Because my assumption is that the answer is because that shit is dangerous. Right? That there's one of the chapters in your book is called burning down the house, right? So we stole fire from the gods and we do all this amazing stuff with it, but we can also burn down the house.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:35Tom Bilyeu?

  And so I guess it fascinates me with drugs because if I knew it were safe, I would do it. So where is that like critical threshold? Why isn't anybody, and I was gonna say Steve Jobs said everyone should do it once, but he didn't say everyone should do it weekly or daily. Right? So what is it that makes people back off?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Well, I think there's, there's, you know, what we, there's several different things. So one, we got to just refine our terms because drugs is a bit of a clumsy category. Right? So we're not talking about amphetamines. We're not talking about cocaine. We're not talking about opioids and heroin and any of those things. We're talking about an incredibly specific and refined subset of psychedelics, of which the, you know, most of the ones we're talking about. Interact with the serotonin system specifically.

• 26:19Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Okay. So that specific category, right? Is fairly unique in its properties, right? And the, and may have, and has some of the benefits as well as known issues that you have to be very mindful of. But they're not physically addictive. There's very low ability to physically overdose. Any of those kinds of things are not on the table for this specific category.

• 26:37Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Right? That said. There are, you know, state sanctioned states of consciousness. There always have been. Right. And whether it's, you know, whether it's way back in the days of the Catholic Church. You know, in fact, even like Neolithic era, right? If you look at early cave sites in Western Europe, you have burned hemp seeds and mortars and pestles for opium, for poppy seeds. Right? No alcohol. The alcohol complex, as anthropologists kind of call a cultural movement, began around the Mediterranean. So even those Old Testament stories like Noah and fermented grapes and all that kind of stuff, right? So alcohol complex began there and funnily enough, fueled a warlike and nomadic bunch of people that migrated out of the Mediterranean. And the alcohol complex kind of took over Europe in interesting ways.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Right? So we enforce, I mean, even today, the smoke break, the coffee break and happy hour. Right? We enforce those even though on considered rankings of most harmful substances that are broadly used, alcohol's number one. It beats heroin. Heroin's number two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alcohol, it's just social harm. Social harm? Absolutely. No question about it. Ethanol, other than the fact that it's so deeply enculturated and we love to raise a glass and there's all these wonderful and bajillions amounts of film, TV advertising that reinforces it. Yeah. Ethanol sucks. Is anyone looking at the brain while they're doing this? Like what? Exactly. So Robin Kahan Harris, Imperial College of London, has just in the last three years started using LSD with patients to put them through FMRI.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  So now I can precipitate the experience with world-class measurement devices. Right. And what he found was two things really interesting. So the first was, is that our ego, when people talk about ego disintegration, you're like practitioners, there was actually right. Like our ego's not, there's not a single spot where it lives. It's a network. And if you knock out even one or two of those nodes, the whole thing powers down. And what are you shutting down? The prefrontal cortex, is that? Well, it's subtler and more nuanced than that these days. And that's, that's what's so cool. Like the new tech is advancing and our ability to put people in interesting states while under the measurement devices. Cause these are big, giant, million dollar machines. The first thing is that the ego is a network and that destabilizing or knocking out even a couple of nodes will shut the whole thing down.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  You'll get that moment of selflessness. Woody Allen goes away, that stuff. But the other, and this goes, you know, goes back to why Fadiman's microdosing was so interesting is that, is that.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Under those, under those conditions, right? While your brain is actually metabolizing and neurotransmitting LSD around its circuitry and the serotonin is happening, you're getting connections between parts of your brain that normally never talk to each other.

• 29:10Tom Bilyeu?

  What creates that connection? So it's not going to be myelination, right? That happens too slowly. So what, what is the mechanism there? You're probably paying two salespeople to do one salesperson's job. That's where today's sponsor, Pipe Drive, comes in. An intelligent AI-powered sales CRM loved by growing sales teams. Pipe Drive just launched meeting intelligence built right into the CRM. Before every call, it pulls deal history and past conversations into one brief. During the call, it records and takes notes. After it, it drafts your CRM updates to review and approve. So there's less admin and more selling.

• 29:51Tom Bilyeu?

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• 30:19Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I think in that literal sense, it's probably neurotransmitters and it's probably literally the serotonin systems. There's a couple, several different receptor sites.

• 30:25Tom Bilyeu?

  Helping distant regions.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Firing and talking to each other and they normally don't.

• 30:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  So it's sort of like skip-level neighbors calling out the window, right? And it's like, and those far-flung connections, I mean, that literally is the mind expansion element and it's super practical. See, this is the thing. It's not just like, oh, wow, I've never thought, you know, that a tree, that an oak tree comes from an acorn, you know, mind blown, you know? It's like, it's like, can I work on real hard stuff that's in my life that has practical applications, real-world constraints? And can I navigate through this?

• 30:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you know some of the things that, the patentable stuff that came out of that? Like, are there?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Norgates, linear electron beam accelerators, like hardcore, super high-tech stuff.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and of course, I mean, that's the Are those guys still doing it? That's my real Everybody's doing it. Bottom line is Silicon Valley. When we go up there and we speak to teams of engineers and we're like, here's flow states and here's ways to manage your day. And they're like, hey, man, our whole engineering team is microdosing. What do you think about that? And I'm like, really? And we're like, uh, can we talk about this off campus? So, you know, so the bottom line is like, um, yes, Silicon Valley as just exemplar or emblem of a lot of this stuff. There's, there's a lot of executives that are using transcranial magnetic stimulation. Yeah. Now, that doesn't freak me out. Exactly. So I recommend TMS to everybody that's interested in it. Cause it's like, okay, if you are risk averse. So tell people what that is. So transcranial magnetic stimulation. It almost looks like one of those, uh, the mirrors, you know,

• 31:48Speaker 02

  those lights that dentists have in their offices, you know, and you can line it up over the front of your brain. And you, and it basically sends magnetic pulses through whatever part of your brain you target. And the typical way they do it is they kind of test it and they make, you know, like you'll just end up with a sort of natural response. So like grab your thumb and they're like, okay, now it's over the right zone. And they just do 15 to 20 minute sessions on a daily basis. And it basically just defrags your cognitive hard drive. And it's FDA approved for depression. Okay. Which is what they, you know, obviously largest target market. Let's go ahead and go through those hoops. Um, and it performs at like 70, it's two X as effective as Prozac. Um, and it's basically like a month long protocol. Now, not that many insurers will pay for it. So it's spendy, 15 to 20 K for a, for a batch.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  So that's prohibitive, but a lot of people are using it off label. And so what they're finding is that, is that by basically kind of pulsing it with magnetic activity and then sort of level setting all of your neuronal connections. When they power back up, it's almost just like a cold, you know, it's just like a hard reboot on your computer that's been on too long. You end up with cleaner pathways and connection and greater efficacy. So that's being used off label by a lot of executives. Um, it's also being used by colleagues of ours. Or do they shut down? It depends, but one of them is dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. So you can absolutely target that. And, and other colleagues of ours are doing DARPA research, right? Target acquisition with snipers, archery, all these kind of measurable things. How long does it take you to learn stuff? They're using it to basically mechanically induce a flow state.

• 33:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  So rather than saying, hey, you've got to roll the dice or spin the tumbler and get lucky. They're just saying, hey, sit here, boosh. One session, you've got 20 to 40 minutes where you're not going to be your normal self. Right? And go crush it and see how fast you learn stuff. And the acceleration and learning in those instances was up to 490%.

• 33:33Tom Bilyeu?

  What was the name of the company that's doing that?

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Advanced Brain Monitoring has been one for sure.

• 33:37Tom Bilyeu?

  Give the stats on how much faster you can learn a language. It goes from like, uh,

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Six months to six weeks?

• 33:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:44Tom Bilyeu?

  That's crazy. So what, what are they doing in the brain to get you in that state? And why does it allow you to learn so much faster? Cause I, reading that in the book, I was like, Jamie and I are going to this place. They're going to zap me and we're going to learn something really, really fast. And nothing else, I want to advance my Greek.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:00Tom Bilyeu?

  So let's go.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the simplest thing that those guys have been doing, and you can do this a thousand and one different ways, but is just straight up EEG feedback. So electrical activity. And can I, can I steer myself without 20 years of meditation practice?

• 34:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Right, so biofeedback. I'm watching my waves and.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Can I just use visualization of my actual real time data to help me learn, to control it faster? Yes, is the short answer.

• 34:24Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Right? So can I move out of distracted, fast moving beta into something slower, more receptive, like alpha theta?

• 34:31Tom Bilyeu?

  Have you seen people get themselves into gamma states?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. Yes. And in fact, it's seasoned meditators, Tibetan lineage monks have a far higher spike in gamma than almost anybody else. And gamma waves, for the folks that don't know, that's like your eureka insight. That's the moment of like, shazam, I got it. And, and I just read a paper in Plus One, the journal, um, which was three different types of meditation and comparing the incidences of gamma frequency based on the different actual meditative styles. So they're not just like, can it be done? And not just can, and meditators can do it, but like now, which unique traditions do it better? And so the idea here is that by, you know, you can either do it the old school way.

• 35:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Decades of practice, flying blind, but with, or with, you know, lineage instruction. Right? Or we can accelerate it now and we can say, hey, can I use additional contemporary tools and tech? And can I accelerate my feedback loops? And can I start doing it faster? And once I can do that, it's not that. You know, the, you know, the, I sort of just gain access to information I haven't learned or earned. But it is to say that I can put myself into the most receptive and accessible state possible to then go and do that.

• 35:42Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you think it's more important that it's learned and earned versus just being able to zap yourself or take a drug? Like, for me, the idea of shaving 30 years, I don't care if people think it's cheating. Like, I'll shave 30 years.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's another one. You know, you asked, like, why doesn't everybody do this? And in your case, the question was about pharmacological supplementation. But these days, it's getting into tech supplementation. It's getting into VR and AR.

• 36:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  And the question is, is, you know, what we talk about is the notion of the skinbag bias. The idea that, like, if it's inside my body and I've earned it, that's real and true. And if it comes from outside, it's cheating or shortcut and not real.

• 36:17Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  And the answer is just, really? You sure about that? Because, you know, it's sort of like, you know, basically, the moment you slow that down, you're like, okay, so where's the edges of that argument? You realize there are no edges. It's arbitrary and subjective. And it's culturally ingrained. The reality is ours, we are clever monkeys making shit up all the time, and we're forever influencing ourselves.

• 36:36Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, you go to Boulder, and it's like goddamn Lake Wobegon. You know, you look at a Montessori class in Boulder, and like, all the kids are just perfect and beautiful. And then you see the mother and the father, and they're all like 512 climbers slash pro cyclist slash mountaineer PhDs, and they've self-selected, right? We all do this. We do it casually and informally, and then we also do it deliberately with, you know, with what we eat. We're tall. You were tall now, and 500 years ago, we weren't. We are constantly modifying ourselves.

• 37:04Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, let's get really crazy. Have you read Evolving Ourselves?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, my friend. Like, you have to read it. So a big part of their whole thing is that natural selection doesn't exist anymore. It is purely unnatural selection. 50% of the Earth's dry landmass is covered by things that we have decided to let grow. So whether that's wheat, corn, whatever. We've decided that. We've decided what species live and die. We're looking at ways to, like, bring back a woolly mammoth through cloning. It's like, literally, we have taken over natural selection. What we've done to humans with The way that we impact our microbiome, our viome, even just cesarean birth and how much that impacts the child.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Head size, yeah.

• 37:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, having bigger heads, smaller hips, having kids later. Every five years over thirty five, I think that a woman pushes back having a child. It's a fourteen percent increase in the likelihood that child will be obese. The heavier you, the heavier the mother is, the more likely the child is to be obese. So it's like you get these generational stacks. They're talking about how epigenetic factors, so changes we make to our own environment, to ourselves now can echo for four generations. Just fucking crazy. So if you take a rat, zap his feet and then make him smell almonds, then do nothing else, right? One rat, zap his feet, made him smell almonds. His great grandchildren will still be freaked out by the smell of almonds.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:27Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, am I the only one freaking out about that? Like, that's what? Like, that is crazy. So we have completely taken this stuff over. So that all triggered me because this whole notion of whether it's internal, whether it's external, A, I don't think that we have grips on now, what is internal and external, whether it be height, intelligence, or whatever, that we're already sort of taking control over and breeding in and out. God, this is a nasty word to say, but that's essentially what's happening. But now we're going to be taking over from a technological perspective, from a chemical perspective. And what are we going to be okay with altering? Right? What do you think? So in fact, let's really get controversial, my friend. What do you think about performance enhancing drugs?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the short answer is we've always been using them. Right? So you go back to the nineteen hundred and the, you know, the early revival of the Olympics. They would do, they were, marathoners were having glasses of wine. Some of them were taking bumps of cocaine.

• 39:24Tom Bilyeu?

  That would help.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's always been happening, right? I mean, the, the, the Incans had that highway that ran the strip of the Andes. It was like eleven or twelve hundred miles. They would have their runners use basically freeze dried, literally, leave it out at night and pound it, freeze dried potatoes and other stuff and coca leaves. And those sons of bitches were like the Pony Express on steroids. They could cover eleven hundred miles in four days. Wow. Yeah, back in the day. Wow, what? Yeah, yeah. That's crazy. So, let me just, just absolutely out of hand. So, the idea that there was some earlier, purer state, where none of this happened and we didn't modify anything is a fiction. Even go back to, oh, we use too much technology and we've been wounding the, hurting the environment. We need to get back to Mother Earth.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Even the notion of just the primal old growth forest is a fiction. So, I mean, fire has been used since Neolithic times by humans as a technology. It's arguably the most potent technology we've ever invented. So, when Europeans came here in the 1600s and they're like, oh, my gosh, there's game everywhere and this puck, puck like forest, we can ride our horses through and all that. No, no, Indians had been managing that landscape to promote game, you know, basically game husbandry for millennia before you guys showed up. So, the idea that there is some earlier, purer state is a pipe dream and a false premise. We've always been modifying our environment. We've always been modifying ourselves. We've always been modifying the plants and foods we eat. Michael Pollan calls it the botany of desire, right?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  That we shape our plants and our plants shape us, right? They make us feel, and even including intoxicating plants. They make us feel good, therefore we make a time, we grow them, we help them have sex, we help them propagate, right? So, it is, it is us. We are clever monkeys with opposable thumbs and always have been. But the notion of where is it going next? Because don't you think that it's accelerating? Like, we're doing it so rapidly. And like VR, even just take VR as an example, let alone like epigenetic manipulation and the kind of, you know, pick your child kind of stuff. But like even just VR, I mean, there's been studies now that are showing that people are getting VR hangovers when they take it off. And it's interfering with. What does that mean? Well, so, so like the first thing that people notice in VR is like, oh, this is weird. And there's this lag and I get a little seasick. And they're, and they're improving latency and it's going to get better.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  But that's, that was the first thing. But now enough people are doing it and doing it, spending enough time in it, that they're actually, what's happening when people are spending a lot of time in it and taking off the headsets? And there's psychological depression? There's a sense of like, the world is just flat and gray and I'm not like a superstar avatar slinging laser beams, right? So, this kind of sucks and I'm in, stuck in traffic and, you know, and my lunch is late. And also like neurobiological. So, like my visual system has been attuned to this simulated environment, but I'm not getting vestibular act inputs, I'm not getting proprioceptive inputs. It's all coming in through my retina. And then I take that off, my cerebellum is out of whack. And people are literally getting sort of hangover effect. It's almost like when you've been on a boat too long and you get back on the pier and like sea legs, land legs.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  People are getting like 3D legs when they come back into waking state realities. So the question is, is I mean, are we going to end up just jacking ourselves involuntarily to the matrix, right? Instead of being imprisoned there ourselves?

• 42:29Tom Bilyeu?

  So here's my big fear. Have you read the comic, um, DMZ?

• 42:33Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 42:33Tom Bilyeu?

  All right. So my mission in life is to get people to understand that fucking comic books contain like so much cultural wisdom. Because you don't have to actually produce it, right? You could do a hundred billion dollar budget movie and you just drawing, right? So whether you're drawing someone sitting in the living room or you're drawing something at the cosmological scale, it, it does not matter, right? So they explore fascinating ideas and the DMZ explores the notion of the US in the middle of its second civil war. And it is so unnerving now to read it now. It came out like probably 10 years ago, maybe a little bit more. And at the time I felt a little insulated from anything like that, but now it's getting a little bit crazy. How does what you guys are covering in Stealing Fire, because I think it does, touch on the

• 43:18Tom Bilyeu?

  divisiveness that we see not just here in the US, but broader? Like, how do we use the technologies to transcend that?

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a massive, fascinating question. And the simplest is to say, like, that these techniques of ecstasy, which is Murcia Eliade's phrase from the University of Chicago way back when, but the notion of like technologies or tools we can use to create a prompt ecstasy or to step outside ourselves.

• 43:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Right? Those can be used back to that, you know, 1984 Brave New World split. They can be used to, for our, the better angels of our nature. They can help us become more expansive, more creative, you know, heal trauma, prompt cooperation, collaboration and innovation. Or they can be used to absolutely hijack our impulses and drives, push all of our pleasure-seeking buttons, sell us more shit, leave us fat and happy and seated on a couch. Right. The option is up to us. It's kind of like in Star Wars, right? I mean, like, 100% Force, Yoda, awesome. 80% Force, Anakin, scary as hell.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  So, so, like, extasis at 80% can be pretty much whatever the hell you want it to be. Right. All right, fully expressed, it has these innumerable positive benefits. So, one of the questions, you know, there's that old Yeats line from that poem, "The Second Coming," which kind of speaks a little bit to your DMZ comic, which is, you know, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with a passionate intensity." That's great. Right? The chills, that's really good. Yeah, "What misshapen beast its hour come round at last lurches towards Bethlehem, waiting to be born." Wow. And we have the ability through extasis to literally step beyond ourselves, to have these experiences of expanded perspective, to have these experiences where we just get out of our own way.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  And we see, man, we are connected to each other. Man, love, beauty, truth are worth taking stands for. Basic decency, like, there should be no reason why we can't reclaim honor, courage, duty, sacrifice, patriotism, democracy. And this is not about left and right. This is about fear or love, right? And I think if we think where we are today, like, you can make a case, you don't have to buy into it, but like, things are accelerating. A lot of people experience that. And it feels like everybody's mythologies are starting to smash and crash into each other, right? One group's saviors, the other group's Antichrist, right? And it's all happening, literally, like, the Matri. If you go on YouTube and you Google "Matria, the World Teacher,"

• 45:54Speaker 02

  which is the Buddhist world teacher, like, there are Christian fundamentalists that are absolutely convinced that A, it might have been Obama, B, the Matri is actually the Antichrist in drag, right? You're like, what is going on? You know, and you've got the Matrix, and you've got Star Wars, and you've got, you know, Bannon and the alt-right, you've got ISIS, you've got all these real and imaginal narratives, all getting swirled, sucked down the drain of time and space. And they're starting to slam into each other and blend and merge in a way that's overwhelming us. Because we literally don't know whether to shit or go blind. And the reality is, is like, what if all of that is just the skin of, it doesn't matter what flag you're flying, it doesn't matter what uniform you wear. The real separation is going to be, are you coming from a place of love? Or are you coming from a place of fear and control?

• 46:37Speaker 02

  And these abilities to step outside ourselves, the abilities to see more, feel more and know more, is the chance to give the best some of their own conviction. That's where we are. It's like to have that courage to say enough, enough with the insanity, enough with the inhumanity. And it's not, it's not, can I, can I trip out? It's not, can I skate from my life and my responsibilities? It's can I just set my, down my burden long enough to step up to the high ground, to step up to the mountain and look around and say, I see where we are and I see what needs to be done. And, and it doesn't matter whether I get the prize. It doesn't matter whether my part is insignificant or pivotal.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  It's just that I have to play it. And if we all do that, and it's the tiniest little things, it's a smile at the grocery store. Right? It's a nod to a neighbor. It's a conversation from a liberal to a conservative saying, we both care about the same things. Let's honor democracy. Let's honor each other. This isn't complicated. And the ability to get beyond false schisms into a, a solution where you can hold more than one perspective. That is what ecstasy gives us. It gives us the ability to wake up to what's possible, to grow up and mend where we're broken and to show up and do that which needs to be done. How do we get there at scale?

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, there's, there's a short answer and there's a longer answer, but I think it's fundamentally open sourcing these techniques of ecstasy. We have the keys to our cage these days, right? We have the ability to, you know, get rid of neurotic Woody Allen. We really do. Like that, that's imminently possible. We don't need to burn a lot of cycles wondering if we can. But the keys to our cage are the keys to the kingdom. It's the same thing. And so, and so, yeah, meditate, I mean, all the smart tech, all the neuroscience, all these access points, all the information is here. Don't die wondering. Go find it and go find it with the fastest, cleanest, safest.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Method that works for you, but go find it. And then let's go back to being people and let's go back to mending this world.

• 48:54Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, I have one more question for you, but first, where do these guys find you online?

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the simplest right now is stealingfirebook.com. And our goal is to get this information out to everybody that needs it and really help support an open source revolution in consciousness and culture. This stuff has always been mediated by middlemen and gatekeepers. And that's the most interesting thing. Right now, it's not one Spartacus, it's not one Prometheus. We're all Prometheus now. And by having this information and sharing it, that's my biggest hope. And I mean, we've run all the scenarios. I think there's a lot of ways this doesn't work. And I think the one way I can see it is a small band of dedicated rebels, right? Doing the impossible, just in time.

• 49:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow, that's awesome. All right, you've almost certainly touched on it, but put a fine point. What's the impact that you want to have on the world?

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's sharing knowledge that people can use to wake themselves and each other up and live the fullest life possible without apology or compromise.

• 50:12Tom Bilyeu?

  I like that a lot. Jamie, thank you so much for coming on the show today, man. That was incredible. Guys, you're gonna want to dig into this man's world. When I first encountered him, the first thought that I had was this is the real life most interesting man in the world. The deeper that you go into the things that he's thinking about, the ways that he's explored it, we're gonna have to bring him back because I didn't even get to like 10% of the things that I wanted to ask him. You've got to hear him talk about relationships. It is unbelievable. We will get to that at some point. But guys, wow, that was an incredible message. You're gonna want to read the book, Stealing Fire. It goes into detail, the neuroscience, the hows, the whys, the wheres, about how you can actually achieve this stuff, the dangers, what awaits on the other side, all of that stuff, which I think warrants further exploration. It is such an intriguing book.

• 50:57Tom Bilyeu?

  I promise with every page that you turn, you're gonna be drawn farther into asking a question. You don't necessarily have to agree with the answer, but the argument that they're presenting, I think, is pretty undeniable, that as Jamie said, we have the ability to step outside of our egocentric universe and really see things afresh. And whether that's to be able to have a breakthrough in your own business, or whether that's to be able to see some of the political stuff that we're dealing with in a new light, to be able to see a new way forward, it doesn't matter. Those are all the things that are contained within the universe that can be affected, whether it's just straight-up meditation, or whether you're braver than I and you take the psychedelic route. But it's all there to be explored. So, boys and girls, if you haven't already, this is a weekly show, so be sure to subscribe.

• 51:42Tom Bilyeu?

  And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Jamie, thank you so much. That was fucking awesome. I really enjoyed that. Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of Impact Theory. If this content is adding value to your life, our one ask is that you go to iTunes and Stitcher and rate and review. Not only does that help us build this community, which at the end of the day is all we care about, but it also helps us get even more amazing guests on here to share their knowledge with all of us. Thank you, guys, so much for being a part of this community. And until next time, be legendary, my friends.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  All opinions and views expressed in this program represent the sole opinions and views of the participants involved and do not necessarily reflect or represent those of Impact Theory LLC or its affiliated companies.

• 52:30Tom Bilyeu?

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• 53:15Tom Bilyeu?

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