Come Back for Greatness with Allyson and Wes Felix

On this week’s episode of IMO, Allyson and Wes Felix join Michelle and Craig to share some very exciting news! They also share more about how their sibling dynamic has set them up to work together in their careers, how Allyson’s approach to the Olympics has changed over the years, and what brings them joy in their lives today. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I started to hide my pregnancy. And so I would train while it was dark. I like, I wanted to be a mother so badly. I wanted all the, you know, the baby shower, the bump pictures. And my experience was just lonely, isolating. I barely ever left the house. When I did, I was in big baggy clothing. And we were doing this because even when they offered the 70% less, it wasn't on paper. And so there was-

• 0:27Michelle Obama?

  And what was the basis of them lowball, bawling you?

• 0:31Speaker 00

  I think it was really, you know, I was older.

• 0:33Craig Robinson?

  You were getting older and they didn't think you could do it?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think they didn't think that they had to pay me to do it.

• 0:46Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Ship.

• 0:51Michelle Obama?

  Craig.

• 0:53Craig Robinson?

  Michelle.

• 0:54Michelle Obama?

  What's going on? It's Craig, Craig and Michelle. Michelle and Craig. How about Michelle and Craig? Did we, did we go over that before?

• 1:00Craig Robinson?

  No, I think, I think it, Michelle and Craig sounds better. But we grew up hearing Craig and Michelle.

• 1:08Michelle Obama?

  That's right. Craig and Michelle.

• 1:10Craig Robinson?

  I think Michelle and Craig sounds better.

• 1:13Michelle Obama?

  You like that?

• 1:13Craig Robinson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14Michelle Obama?

  But I'm excited about our-

• 1:15Craig Robinson?

  How about it?

• 1:16Michelle Obama?

  -show today. Um, because when we started talking about doing IMO and it, over the first season, things, it's, it's, the show is becoming what it's gonna be.

• 1:29Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Michelle Obama?

  Right? And it's beautiful. I love how we're kind of unwinding what it is organically. But we talked about wanting to really get more siblings.

• 1:41Craig Robinson?

  Siblings, like situations that we could-

• 1:44Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 1:45Craig Robinson?

  To contrast and compare with our upbringing.

• 1:49Michelle Obama?

  Especially siblings who work together.

• 1:51Craig Robinson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51Michelle Obama?

  And we did that with Regina and Raina. We've got a couple of people in, but this pair, um, I, I, everybody will know, who the sister of the team is. Duo is, I've been a fan of hers for a long time. But we've got brother sister here. You want to do the introduction?

• 2:12Craig Robinson?

  I do. We have Allison and Wes Felix. So I am excited because this is my first time meeting them. Not my first time seeing them, but my first time meeting them. So I will, I will start with Allison's bio. Allison Felix is the most decorated American track and field Olympian in history, earning 31 global medals across the Olympics and world championships.

• 2:39Michelle Obama?

  Crazy.

• 2:40Craig Robinson?

  Thirty-one.

• 2:41Michelle Obama?

  That's a lot of running.

• 2:42Craig Robinson?

  That's a lot of medals and a lot of winning and a lot of placing and competing, along with multiple world records. At her fifth Olympic Games in Tokyo, 2020, she wore spikes from her own brand, Seish, making her the first track and field athlete to compete in her own footwear. So we're going to talk about that. And now Wes has a distinguished athletic and leadership background as well. At USC, he was an All-American and captain of USC's track team. So I can't wait to talk to them about, I mean, we were close in college,

• 3:26Craig Robinson?

  but it wasn't like you were playing ball or anything.

• 3:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, right. That's right.

• 3:30Craig Robinson?

  And then Wes founded Evolve Management Agency, shaping the brands of top female athletes, including his sister Allison Felix. In 2021, he co-founded Seish, a women's specific performance footwear brand. And in 2024, Always Alpha, the first talent management firm dedicated entirely to women's sports.

• 3:55Michelle Obama?

  Amen.

• 3:56Craig Robinson?

  So.

• 3:57Michelle Obama?

  So we got so much to talk about.

• 3:59Craig Robinson?

  We have so much to talk about and we can't wait. So why don't you guys come on out?

• 4:03Michelle Obama?

  Felix, welcome to IMO.

• 4:12Craig Robinson?

  Welcome, man.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 4:19Craig Robinson?

  See you. Have a seat.

• 4:21Michelle Obama?

  Well, get all settled into our little table.

• 4:24Craig Robinson?

  You set your chair right up.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Got it ready.

• 4:26Craig Robinson?

  Don't have to squeeze you in.

• 4:29Michelle Obama?

  Well, you guys, welcome, welcome.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 4:32Michelle Obama?

  You're looking great, big brother, little sister. I love it.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  No, I feel like her maturity has maybe surpassed mine now that she's a mom.

• 4:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 4:43Craig Robinson?

  Oh, yes.

• 4:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, but he was a dad first, but I still think my maturity surpasses him.

• 4:49Craig Robinson?

  Well, I think that's a gender thing. I think it's a gender thing.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:54Craig Robinson?

  And Misha's maturity level surpassed me when she was six. So at least she held out.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  At least she held out. Held out for a little bit.

• 5:06Craig Robinson?

  She was bossing me around at six years old, so.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:09Craig Robinson?

  So, so growing up, how did you, when did the competitions start? Like, did you guys, like, we played everything together because she was my first playmate.

• 5:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Craig Robinson?

  So whether it was sports or games, board games, cards, when that, that started for you and me early.

• 5:30Michelle Obama?

  The minute you could get me to do stuff, and the minute I was old enough for him to beat me at something, he would be like, let's play this game that I've been practicing for two years.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  I like your style. Right there with you.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was the same for us. Really, early on, I feel like our family is just competitive, so that was, you know, that was the dynamic always. And then I was just a tag along, you know, whatever Wes was doing, I was trying to keep up. And so if he was playing with the boys in the neighborhood and they were playing basketball, I was, you know, not too far along, but he didn't, he never let me win in anything. And then I also didn't, I was always Wes's little sister, like, I didn't have a name. So he was doing well, and when I came along, you know, that kind of was the thing. And so I felt like I was always trying to kind of, you know, keep up with you.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was interesting as you guys were, were doing the open and you were saying, is it Michelle and Chris? Or is it Craig and Michelle? And it's interesting in art for us, just when it switched.

• 6:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  You know, it was always Wes and Allison. And it was, this is Allison or Wes's little sister.

• 6:38Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  Wes's little sister, yeah. And then all of a sudden, high school, it like turned. And it was like Allison and Wes. And it was, that's Allison's brother. And, um, and it's been that way ever since.

• 6:53Craig Robinson?

  We had the same. Ours, ours was a little later. When she, when she became iconic as the first lady. And it's like, I became. I became Michelle Obama's brother.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:06Craig Robinson?

  And it, I was more than happy to be that. You know, because she had been Craig Robinson's little sister for so long.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:15Craig Robinson?

  And it was, it was irritating at times, but you got to meet some, a few guys.

• 7:20Michelle Obama?

  Probably like you, probably like you, Allison. I, I adored my big brother. I mean, there, there was never a feeling of competition. We'd compete. But, you know, if he got something new, I was excited for him, you know?

• 7:35Craig Robinson?

  So tell us about your parents, because I want to, I, I, we miss ours so much. Tell us how they influenced the people you became.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so our dad is a pastor.

• 7:47Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  So, um, yeah, we grew up as PKs and our mom, uh.

• 7:52Craig Robinson?

  Oh, is that a thing, PK?

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:53Craig Robinson?

  Pastors' kids?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. Pastors' kids, yeah.

• 7:56Craig Robinson?

  I didn't know it was called PK.

• 7:57Michelle Obama?

  That's because you don't go to church.

• 7:59Craig Robinson?

  That's true. That is true. I would not know.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  And our mom was elementary school teacher. She taught third grade. And so, um, yeah, they were very much people of service. And, you know, invested in people. And we always grew up hearing, you know, your parents are so amazing. They've done, you know, so much for us. And for us, I think they were really great examples of what hard work looked like and what passion looked like. And, um, really gave us, you know, a beautiful upbringing.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think I, I always think of. You know, especially our dad. His dad passed away when he was eight. So he had such a different life than we did. But where he grew up, it was two streets over from where we grew up. So literally, exact same neighborhood, you know, just two streets over.

• 8:52Michelle Obama?

  That's similar to us, yeah. We grew up in the community that our parents grew up in, yeah, same thing.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  And then his dad passed when he was eight. So then they had to leave that neighborhood. And they had to go out, just kind of into LA. And so to get to experience what it was like to have both parents there and alive. And, you know, I think we got to experience things that, for him, were his hopes for us. But also, he was so protective because I think he knew how fragile all of it was. And for us, growing up in LA in the 80s, 90s, like, it was like a war zone there. And, you know, we lived in this beautiful little pocket, this gated little pocket. But it was still right in the middle of all of it.

• 9:43Michelle Obama?

  Well, that's all black neighborhoods. If you grew up in a black, I don't care what socioeconomic, at least when we were coming up, black folks all live together. So there might be a block, or two, or four. But you were surrounded by all of the black community, which I thought was a beautiful way for us to grow up. You know, because you were never too far, you never could get too big for yourself.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  You couldn't.

• 10:09Michelle Obama?

  And I know, growing up in our neighborhood, being kids that studied and spoke proper English, you know, you were living two lives. You know, you had to get to school, you know, clear and know how to act with your neighborhood friends, right? And then come back home and straighten up and use the right English. It was almost like, you know, it was a complete code switching. But I treasured that experience. I'm so glad we grew up with that. Both of you, and we'll talk about sports, but what's very clear in your career, Allison, is that

• 10:47Michelle Obama?

  You have a very high bar for yourself, period.

• 10:52Michelle Obama?

  And you put so much pressure on yourself. I want to know, and Wes, you're probably the same way. But I'm just wondering, where does that come from? Because your parents, you know, they're like, you succeeded when you graduated, right? Good people, not in a gang. You know, the bar becomes, I wouldn't say low, but I know our parents, they didn't put pressure on us to be anything other than good people in the world. You know, there wasn't like, you're going to be an Olympic athlete. You're going to be president, you're going, you know, it was just like, so where does that pressure for you guys come from?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it definitely, yeah, it didn't come from our parents. And it's really interesting because they had no athletic dreams for us. So for me, it really, it just felt like who I was. It felt very natural to have these, you know, high expectations. But I think I did see, you know, my parents like worked so hard at what they were doing. And so when I did find something that I was passionate about, I wanted to bring that same energy to it. And so I think that's what it was. I wanted to do it the best that I could. And that always looked like setting a goal. And then, you know, if I achieved it, then, okay, there's another one. And there's another one, and it just kind of kept going.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  But it was, it was really kind of internal for me that I, you know, that I kept pushing.

• 12:21Craig Robinson?

  You started with, or you played basketball.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:25Craig Robinson?

  Where did the running come in? Because what I found with most basketball players, running is a punishment, so you don't like to do it. And then you have, you, so you went from basketball to running.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:40Craig Robinson?

  And, and I know you followed him with the running.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:43Craig Robinson?

  But where did the running come in?

• 12:45Speaker 00

  For me, it was really just around school and like making friends. But Wes was at a different school. And so he was already running and he was already doing well. And so it was kind of a natural. Next step for me to try, I was playing basketball, but still hadn't made the friends that, you know, as that I needed. I didn't find my group. And then that's really for me how, yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  That was the same. Our dad was, we were out at new school and he was like, sports are a great way to meet people. Just trying to, trying to meet people. Just trying to make friends.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Stumbled into it.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then I think we were.

• 13:18Craig Robinson?

  Stumbled into it.

• 13:19Michelle Obama?

  You know, and it, you know, that's.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  It worked out.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Then we fell in love with it.

• 13:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  And I think it was a huge part of our bond, too. It was like, yeah, like, it was like the family business.

• 13:33Craig Robinson?

  So what was it like, Allison, going to the Olympics at 18? Do you remember that? Is that still?

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, yes, very fresh. It was, everything was new for me because I had only really seriously joined the track team at my high school a little over four years before. And so everything happened so quickly. And so for me, it was like the, you know, the biggest competition that I've raced in. It was away from home. It was all the things. I didn't grow up wanting to be an Olympian. So it was something, you know, that I found much later. So I was really, everything that they had to offer, I was doing walking and opening ceremonies, trading pins, living in the Olympic Village. It was just so exciting. But when it came to the competition, I was still very much so that competitive, you know, athlete.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  And so I, I ended up getting a silver medal at first.

• 14:30Craig Robinson?

  We, we saw the documentary.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  And I was, yeah, not happy.

• 14:37Michelle Obama?

  But just in terms of context, because, you know, everybody should know you, but we are, we want to make sure that every listener understands. Because. You were one of the youngest Olympians to run in your meet, to make that jump that quickly.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:00Michelle Obama?

  And I want to hear a bit about that, that experience. Because people didn't think, they thought you were going after the Olympics too soon.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:12Michelle Obama?

  You were, you were a phenom too. So there was all this attention.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:18Michelle Obama?

  Can you talk a bit about that, the journey to the Olympics?

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:22Michelle Obama?

  Where Silver Metta feels like failure.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it did. I was, I had done really well in high school and so I-

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Do it justice, do it justice.

• 15:32Michelle Obama?

  Wes, just you jump in because she's not gonna do it. That's why Big Brother is here.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  So Allison was state champion in California, which is a huge track state. When was your first state championship, sophomore year?

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Sophomore year, yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  So sophomore year was her first state championship, which just doesn't, that's insanely rare in California. And then she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated by the time she's 17, as a track athlete, which again, that doesn't, just doesn't happen. When it was her senior year, she went to Mexico City. She went to a private school and she had a coach who was like so dedicated. I think like it's such an amazing part of your story, just the way that your coach like believed in you and wanted you to have all the opportunities. But he said, hey, there's this pro meet you can go compete in. We should go down there. It's in Mexico City.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  They, they asked you to come. They're gonna pay, you know. And so our parents go down there and she runs in this meet against- Women who this is their job. This isn't, this is how they put food on the table. This isn't fun anymore. This is their job.

• 16:50Michelle Obama?

  They're not going back, going to the prom.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  No, no. She goes down there and she runs and she beats an entire field of professionals, not takes third and beats most of the pros. She beats all of the pros. And she runs the fastest time in the world for any, any woman that year. And then decided that she wanted to go pro. And so she became the first high school athlete to go directly pro.

• 17:25Craig Robinson?

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• 18:06Craig Robinson?

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• 18:50Craig Robinson?

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• 19:35Craig Robinson?

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• 20:15Craig Robinson?

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• 21:00Craig Robinson?

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• 21:17Michelle Obama?

  What made you decide to go pro? What?

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was a really big decision because, yeah, that wasn't happening in track and field. And the biggest factor was that the Olympic Games were going to be the next year. And Wes was already at USC. And so I had this front row seat watching him compete and seeing what it actually looked like. And he had, you know, it was all about the NCAAs. And so he was all about the point system. And so he would have a lot of events. And, you know, if you wanted to do well at the Olympics, that was fine, but that was not going to be the primary goal. And so in really getting to talk to him and his experience, it was like if I really wanted to take it seriously to try to make the Olympic team,

• 22:02Speaker 00

  my best bet was going to be able to just solely focus on that and not run for the team. And I know, you know, I would have wanted to be a team player and have done all the things. And so that was really what it came down to was could I focus, you know, solely on trying to make the Olympic team. And it was a really, it was, it was a decision that was really criticized a lot. And of course, we didn't have social media like we have now. Yeah. But, you know, I heard it and it was, it was really hard. But I, my family, you know, they supported me. And, and yeah, I think I made the right decision for what my goals were.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  I still had feelings of missing out on the true college experience and, you know, being on the team and all of those things. But I, yeah, I went for, you know, I went for trying to make the team.

• 22:57Michelle Obama?

  Do you remember the first time you said to yourself, I want to be an Olympian?

• 23:02Speaker 00

  It was really late. It was in, it was probably around the time, a little bit before that race in Mexico City. Because for me, I had always looked at it as like, this is going to be college, you know? This is my ticket to college and to get it paid for. And so I always had that mindset. And also because we found it late, I don't think I really knew it was like a career path.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  It's like you run, you run in the neighborhood.

• 23:29Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, you compete in school. Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  And it's just so different than like the NBA or the NFL where you're hearing these like contracts and all this stuff like.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  I didn't know it, no, we knew no one who was a professional track athlete. And so I think it was just, you know, even the possibility. And then, you know, once I had done really well and I started to like look and see, oh, you know, there are these people who, you know, who do this for a living. It's like, oh, wow, that sounds amazing. So not too long after that race, it was like, okay, I, this is what I want to do and I really want to take it all the way.

• 24:06Michelle Obama?

  Well, speaking of kids just doing stuff, so you start managing Allison.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  That is a true kids just doing stuff.

• 24:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I just, how, you know.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:15Michelle Obama?

  Because you, how were you when you started managing Allison?

• 24:19Speaker 03

  I was young. I think I was like 24.

• 24:22Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  Maybe 25.

• 24:23Michelle Obama?

  So how did, how did the, what was the conversation?

• 24:27Speaker 00

  It's so funny because I was kind of at this place in my career where I was looking for new management. I was going to a new sponsor and so there was a lot of change happening and I never felt like I had really been, got the sponsors and the deals that I should have. And so I was really on the hunt for that. And Wes was also in this moment in his career at a transition as well. He had a liver virus where it was clear that he was not going to be able to continue. And so I think everything was.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Competing, not in life. I would live.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  Continue on in the sports.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  They're putting death on you, you know.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  But it was kind of this, this moment that it just aligned and he, you actually like made a proposal. I think he like put a proposal together to our parents, like around representing.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Me too. And I called her Miss Felix.

• 25:24Craig Robinson?

  Were you still in college then?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  I just graduated.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  You were dead.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was a couple of years out of college. I'd just been running for a few years. I was sponsored by Nike and yeah, and had the injury. And then she got her Miss Felix letter.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  So I guess the proposal was really great. Cause but it was like this kind of natural next step. And I had all the confidence. Like it, for me, it was great because I felt like for the first time, like in my entire career, I could solely focus on the competition and the training and just say like, okay, you've got this other side.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  You know, I looked at her business and at the time she had like this sponsorship with Adidas and that was where like her income came from. But she had these outside sponsors and there were two of them. And one was Visa and one was Power Bar. And like together, it was a combined $35,000 a year. And so I looked at that and was like, that sounds crazy to me. Like my sister just won an Olympic silver medal. She's 18 years old. Like she's like the youngest Olympian on the team. She's the youngest sprint world champion in history. $35,000 doesn't, I didn't know what a lot was, but I knew 35,000 wasn't a lot.

• 26:38Michelle Obama?

  What do you think it was that, why do you think you were underpaid at that time? Because it is true. You were a phenom, but you were making $35,000 a year.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  I think probably a combination of things, but I was at a, a large agency. And I think I, well, I felt like I was lost in the cracks. I didn't feel like anybody was really fighting for me. I think in, especially being a female, a black woman, someone has to be out there really going hard for you. And I don't think I was showing up in rooms. I don't think that, I don't think I was really a factor in so much. I don't think anyone was really pushing for me. And so I think that all shifted when the person representing me also cared about me, you know, and cared about my wellbeing. And yeah, when that, that really shifted when we started working together.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  And it's hard because, you know,

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Everything is about the Olympic Games for us. That is our championship. That's the biggest thing. But it happens every four years. And the world only pays attention for, you know, those two weeks. And so all of your earning potential is really right there. But it's also the most, you know, it's the event you have to be ready for. And so there's so much that goes into, you know, the training, the day in and day out. And we do have a professional circuit that we, you know, participate every year. But it's nothing like the Olympic Games. And so just the weight of that. And, you know, the opportunity is small. The window is small of your, your earning potential. And so a lot goes into it.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  And I always say it's, you know, for me, my race was 221 seconds. And if you mess it up, you've got to wait another four years. And so it's not only the athletic pursuit of it, but the business side of it as well. It's like, how do we maximize this time? That you don't know if you're going to go once or you'll have multiple opportunities. So I think it, it's really difficult for Olympians. And then when you start to even get smaller for, you know, for Olympians of color, for women, you know, the opportunities are smaller. So it's been challenging through the years to really be able to get out there. And I always feel like for female athletes as well

• 29:03Speaker 00

  is not only do you have to be extraordinary in what you do, but there's also this other thing where it feels like there's like this standard of beauty or there's, you know, you have to also be, you know, appealing in this certain way. And it, I think after a while, just becomes exhausting. You know, it's like you're constantly fighting to make it. And, you know, sometimes you feel like you are not yourself when you're trying to fit this version of like, you know, what are they looking for? How can I be that when it's not really who I am? And so I think it's really, you know, been a struggle. But I think definitely it was a turning point when we started working together. I felt like I could lean into more of my.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  Myself and be able to honor that.

• 29:50Michelle Obama?

  I also want to just pitch She Runs the World, which is an amazing documentary that, and I want to talk more about that. That really gives the audience a clear sense of who you both are. And, you know, character wise, as an athlete.

• 30:11Michelle Obama?

  So I want people to, because that's, it's, I know it's done. I've seen it. Yeah. And it's played at the Martha's Vineyard African American Film Festival. Yeah. But I hope more people are gonna get to see it. But be on the lookout for She Runs the World and we'll talk more about that story. But you guys did something different to keep the light shining. Yeah. Because we, we know Alison Felix. You know, we, we know you inside and out. So what did you all, what do you think the difference was for you? In sort of maintaining kind of a high level of presence and building an economic model. Yeah.

• 30:56Michelle Obama?

  That could sustain you.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  I think it really was eventually doing things like outside of the traditional sense. You know, for, I think a lot of stuff shifted for us when, you know, we started speaking out. Once we, you know, created our company and I was sponsored by, you know, Sage, our own company. It was like breaking outside of the mold of the way that things had always been done. And understanding that that's okay and that's good. And I think it was also just being ourselves. Instead of trying to fit into this mold of what you think that they're looking for.

• 31:34Michelle Obama?

  Can we talk about what we're talking?

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:36Michelle Obama?

  Because you're, you're killing it, winning medals, got big Nike sponsorship. You are the female athlete at Nike and they are making money off of you. And you were, you're, you're killing it. And then this wonderful thing happens that turns out to not be a wonderful thing in sports. Can you talk a bit about?

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I started a family and I had, I was really scared to do that.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Well, I waited first because I felt like I couldn't. I had seen, you know, my friends and I had seen. My teammates struggle. And so I felt like, okay, well, if I do enough, if I have enough medals, then that won't be me. And I waited, I had gone to four games. I had six gold medals and I felt like I'm in the safe zone. And I start my family. And even before I disclosed my pregnancy to them, our negotiations began at an offer of 70% less than what I was making before. And that just like, that just shook me because it was like, wow, they don't even know. And already this is in such a bad place.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  And so my fear amplified and I started to train. I started to hide my pregnancy. And so I would train while it was dark. I like, I wanted to be a mother so badly. I wanted all the, you know, the baby shower, the bump pictures. And my experience was just lonely, isolating. I barely ever left the house. When I did, I was in big baggy clothing. And we were doing this because even when they offered the 70% less, it wasn't on paper. And so there was-

• 33:19Michelle Obama?

  And what was the basis of them low ball, balling you?

• 33:23Speaker 00

  I think it was really, you know, I was older.

• 33:25Craig Robinson?

  You were getting older and they didn't think you could do it.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:28Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  And I think they didn't think that they had to pay me to do it. You know, who else was going to pay me?

• 33:41Craig Robinson?

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• 33:50Craig Robinson?

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• 34:35Craig Robinson?

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• 36:21Craig Robinson?

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• 37:37Speaker 03

  I found in representing Allison that people are afraid because I'm her brother. They dance around things. And I'll try to just tell them. I was like, you know, I understand that's my sister. And also, I'm not here as her brother. I'm here as her manager. And so like, I need to understand what you're talking to. Say what you need to say, you know? And something that they said was, it's just business. And also, you know, she is getting older.

• 38:06Michelle Obama?

  And how old were you at the time?

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Was I?

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Like 32.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, 32. Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  She's getting older. And, you know, and as conversations went on and it got a bit more heated and truth came out a little bit more. Something else they said that I found like unbelievably just offensive was, well, we've paid her a lot of money over the years. And when I remember-

• 38:33Michelle Obama?

  She's had enough.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  When the comment came out, you know, and you're kind of looking at a white man telling you- His exact words were, well, she's made a lot of money with us. I hope she saved some.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  And, you know, and my comment was, and you've made much more money off of her than she's made off of you. And, um, and as we went, went through the negotiations, you know, what became really, really clear to me was that this was just because they believed they could.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Could.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  It was because they could.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  And, you know, there's the parts of that that are, that are ugly and horrible. There's the parts of that that are, that are just business and you don't have to be amazing, great people to do business. It would obviously be better if you were, but you don't have to be. And, um, and I think what they, what they never thought could happen is what, what did happen.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Which is?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  They never thought that we would actually stand up to them and, and that Allison would, would sit down and.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Wrote a New York Times op ed sharing what was going on. We had turned our attention away from the financial part of it and asked for maternal protections, which simply meant, um, the contracts are performance based. And so they're created so that if you go to the Olympics or world championships, you get a bonus. And if you don't, you get a reduction. But if you have a baby or if you've just given birth, there was nothing to protect you. So I was simply asking for time to be able to recover after childbirth and not be further financially penalized. And at first they said yes. And I was like, okay, then we can move forward. And when the contract came back, um, there was no mention of maternity, no pregnancy.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  And, and what we learned was that they were not willing to set that precedent for everyone. They were willing to give it to me, um, but not, not for everyone. And so for me, that was just, it, this happened over a course of time. I ended up giving birth to my daughter and there was just, it just, to me, it just felt like unacceptable. You know, it just felt like I couldn't stand by on that. So, um, wrote that New York Times op ed, shared what so many women before me. Had also who were under NDAs had gone through. And yeah, shared my truth. And I think it was about two and a half weeks after that op ed came out. That Nike changed their policy along with many other companies today, offering 18 months of maternal protection.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  And yeah, but terrifying, you know? Really, really scary.

• 41:16Craig Robinson?

  You I'm thinking back to something you said earlier about your parents. Being of service to everyone. That was your opportunity to be of service.

• 41:27Michelle Obama?

  Cause you could have taken your money and.

• 41:29Craig Robinson?

  You could have just said, okay, I'm hooked up like a lot of people do. And so kudos to you. At any point in time during that whole process, did your passion for the sport change? Like, did you feel like, oh, I'll show I'm not I'm I'm through with this?

• 41:48Speaker 00

  I feel like I felt like I had a lot to prove after that, you know? It was almost like in going through that, I knew I wasn't done. And I I hated that, you know, I felt like they thought I was through. That now I was a mother, you know, I needed to be on to something else. I I hated that I felt like I was being forced in this narrative that I did not connect with. You know, I knew that I still could make it back to the Olympics. I knew that I could still be the present mother that I wanted to be. And so the idea that I could not, I felt like I couldn't make my own decision. That motivated me to say like, well, I want to show, you know, the world that this is a possibility.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  And also I want to show my daughter that, you know, when it's her time to do whatever. That you can absolutely do the things that the convictions of your heart. And that you can do it fully, you know, in all the ways. And so that was the the big shift that I felt.

• 42:49Michelle Obama?

  Instead of walking away from the sport, you walked away from Nike.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  I walked away from Nike and knew that I wasn't done. And and Wes and I, you know, always figuring it out, figuring out. What was next? Um, we thought, you know, okay, we've got to find a new sponsor and that was the task. But as we did a really deep dive in the industry and Wes, I think really going into big brother mode, he was like, I just think that we should do this ourselves. And I'm like, well, what exactly does that mean? You know, I had just had a baby, you know, all these things are happening in the world. And um, he said, you know, I think that we should, you know, build a shoe company. And that just felt also so big, just coming from where we come from. Like, I didn't see the path to that.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  But the more that I sat with it, I, I understood what he was saying. It was like, instead of begging these big brands to do the right thing, to build the thing differently, we could do it. And even though it was very ambitious, um, we, we did that and we learned that, you know, shoes were not being made for women. And that took time to figure out what that meant because, you know, we've all been to the shoe store and the women's side. And I'm like, no, there's shoes. But as we unpacked it, we learned, you know, a shoe is just made off of a lass, which is a mold of a foot. And it's the mold of a man's foot used to make women's sneakers. And I had no idea of being a runner, that I was running literally in men's shoes.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  And when we figured that out, it was like, wow, you know, we have this opportunity, you know, we can, we're absolutely where we're supposed to be and we can do things differently. And we can also see and celebrate women in a holistic way that we didn't feel like was being done. And I think, you know, when you've really given your life to something for so long and to feel so discarded, um, it, it was very painful. And so it was picking up the pieces. And to me, you know, to be able to make it back to the Olympics, to, to do it, you know, wearing our, our shoes was incredible. And also in front of my daughter, you know, and really getting to, you know, one day fully be able to tell her, you know, what all of that means.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  I think it was really a full circle experience.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Also, it was COVID year.

• 45:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it was a COVID year.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  So you also, it was so different too. Like first games we were not.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:14Michelle Obama?

  Well, you skipped over the part that your pregnancy was not uneventful.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:20Michelle Obama?

  You know, which is, you know, the other powerful thing to watch in She Runs the World is. Just your physical stamina and your comeback. Because you had preeclampsia.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  I did.

• 45:36Michelle Obama?

  And you had a C-section.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:39Michelle Obama?

  You gave birth early, so Kami was premature. And those days, watching you and your husband go back and forth to that NICU and that New Year's Eve when you could bring her home.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:51Michelle Obama?

  Um, I was just, ugh.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was heartbreaking, you know? And I think even more so, like, I, I wasn't, I didn't realize that that was not an uncommon experience, that so many Black women have gone through that and so many don't get to have that experience of walking out of the hospital with their family. And so that shifted my life, you know? I, I just felt like we have to be doing more. There's no way that we can continue down this path, you know? For it to be more dangerous for me to give birth than it was for my mother? I mean, that just doesn't make sense. And something like 80% of deaths and complications of women of color are preventable.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  And so that whole experience, you know, I think it gave me just that push that I needed to be able to speak out and to be able to do things I never would have imagined because that's so far from what makes me feel comfortable. But it was, it's necessary because, you know, Black women are dying giving birth today in our country.

• 46:55Michelle Obama?

  Well, you, you were living out the full experience of the devaluation of women and Black women through this sport. Um, and through, in the world. I mean, Wes, like you said, women are, a lot of women, we feel beaten down because there is so, there's so little investment in a woman's life.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:18Michelle Obama?

  You know? And to see it in this contract negotiation where they essentially say, you're done.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:23Michelle Obama?

  You know, um, we're through with you, you know? There are a lot of male athletes that get legacy deals.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:30Michelle Obama?

  Where they're, you know, they're, they are done. But, you know, the men around the table still see the value that They bring, which is how, that's the other reason.

• 47:40Craig Robinson?

  And they're making more money.

• 47:42Michelle Obama?

  They're making more money.

• 47:43Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 47:44Michelle Obama?

  So the shoe situation is like, it's like our health.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:48Michelle Obama?

  You know, we're not even told about the dangers of giving birth.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:52Michelle Obama?

  You know, studies aren't being done, you know, outrage isn't happening. We're just, we're doing the most important thing, which is bringing life into the world. And nobody tells us about pre-eclampsia or morning sickness or what it does to our bodies. And, and now we, companies want to penalize female athletes. In, in a pro-life world, where we care so much about life, you know, but we don't care about the mother who's giving birth. That's, you know, the full power of your story because there's so many. You, you've lived out.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:35Michelle Obama?

  The complete disparity in health.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:40Michelle Obama?

  Among women, black women, the economic disparities that we face. As being a world-class athlete, a, an American hero.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Thank you, you mean so much.

• 48:55Craig Robinson?

  Well, you know, we, we have a listener question, but before we get to the listener question, I understand that you, you may have some news for us.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  I don't know if it's news, but I, I think one thing, there's a thought that keeps coming back to me. And I've been thinking about honoring it. And it's just really the idea, a lot of what we've been talking about as far as women. And I think when we get to a certain age, that sometimes we are told that our life should look a certain way. And so I've had this feeling of, do I want to come to LA? Do I want to try one more time to make an Olympic team? And I keep having the scary feeling of, it feels like something I want to do. And. The push to honor that.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  And not because I feel like I need to, or that it's something around performance. But the feeling that I have is really around the narrative for women. And, you know, this idea of can we have ambition after achievement? Can we, what if there is more? And I think I'm deeply curious if I could do it.

• 50:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Um, I think it's really big and, you know, it's super,

• 50:19Speaker 00

  it's a big goal. And, um, but it excites me and it scares me. And I think my first thought was, okay, this is something that I really want to hold on to and do in private.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  But I think that that also makes me feel like it's probably the right thing because.

• 50:35Michelle Obama?

  It's a little scary.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  It's a little scary. And I think maybe it's something that other women can relate to.

• 50:40Michelle Obama?

  If there's anybody who should feel like when it comes to her profession, her sport, her life, who has nothing to prove, it's you. You don't have anything to prove. You don't need this. But if it's something you want, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it isn't, it, it's not for the them.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:08Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's for this, it's, it's for Cami. It's for all the Camis that come after, all the women who were told no, who stopped when they were told no. All the women who will continue to be told no. And how old are you now?

• 51:24Speaker 00

  I'm 40.

• 51:24Michelle Obama?

  You're 40?

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:25Michelle Obama?

  You're a baby. I'm 62. And you're absolutely right. Those, those bars were false, you know? Those boxes that they put us in aren't true. They've, they've never been true. But because the world is designed for men. They create the boxes they put us in. You know, even though there's something in you that says, I might be able to do, I, I have it, I have it in me.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:52Michelle Obama?

  I am not who you say I am.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:55Michelle Obama?

  I am not the box that you put me in. We all need a, a little bit of that.

• 52:02Michelle Obama?

  I think it would be a powerful statement. And that's what hard things are.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, hard things are. And I learned this from my husband because I I'm probably not as shy as you, but I I'm inclined to step back from a thing and go, why would you do that? It seems like, you know, but I've got this partner who's like, why not? You know, if not us, then who, you know?

• 52:31Michelle Obama?

  So that that's all it is, is just saying yes. And then turning your back to what everybody else has to say. Because the journey is going to require a lot of work and a lot of focus that you already know how to do. And I would just narrow in on the beauty of that process.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:47Michelle Obama?

  And let it be whatever it's going to be. I just think the process of the effort is powerful.

• 52:55Michelle Obama?

  You know, and you're gonna, you're, you want the gold. You don't want to lose.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:00Michelle Obama?

  And that's, that's great.

• 53:02Craig Robinson?

  Now she's getting into my, my lane. She's getting into my lane as, as the coach at the table.

• 53:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:09Craig Robinson?

  I would, I, I, I suspect there's a little competition a hall like still left over in you. And I would just be, okay, when does this training start?

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:21Michelle Obama?

  I mean, LeBron is still playing.

• 53:24Craig Robinson?

  That's right.

• 53:24Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 53:25Craig Robinson?

  Let's put the team together to make this successful.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:29Craig Robinson?

  Who's, who's, who's coaching? Who's training? Who's setting this, who's setting the schedule? I mean, I, I've got goosebumps. I'm excited for you.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  Well, I think it's also knowing that I'm okay if this ends with me not making it. It's the question of, is it possible? Well, I, I'm not sure, but I'm deeply curious. And I think just knowing that you can go for something even at a certain age, that that doesn't have to be a limit. It doesn't have to be something that turns you away.

• 54:03Craig Robinson?

  And, and not to poo poo all of the warm stuff we're talking about. A lot of athletes don't take it to the next level because they're afraid that they might not make it.

• 54:20Craig Robinson?

  I'm trying to teach our high school kids that I'm coaching right now. The beauty of the journey is in the process and the journey itself. And that never goes away.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  It's so true.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think failure or failure, you know, it's a part of it. I feel like I've learned so much more from the things that didn't go the way that I had thought they were supposed to go. And there's so much to be learned. And so there is something that excites me of what will I learn in this process, you know, and what is there, what is for me, you know? It may not look maybe like the goal that I have set before, but I think that there is something powerful there.

• 55:09Craig Robinson?

  My kitchen has never quite felt completely put together, like it's always felt like something is missing. And then Kelly and I found these striped linen cafe curtains on Wayfair, and the effect has been perfect. Once we realized we wanted some curtains, it was just a matter of typing our ideal item into Wayfair's search bar. And of course, they have what we want plus 10 other options. Their inventory truly cannot be beat. I especially like being able to look through customer photos and reviews before I decide. That's what sealed the deal for us with our new curtains, as well as all of the other amazing pieces we have from Wayfair in our house right now.

• 55:49Craig Robinson?

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• 56:18Craig Robinson?

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• 57:52Craig Robinson?

  Speaking of helping folks, this is a perfect time for our question. Yes. From Ashley in Long Beach.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  When you consider a new venture, what signals tell you it's time to pivot? And what criteria help you decide what to say yes to and what to lovingly release when your time and energy are finite? For those of us with many callings and limited capacity, how do we pursue the next thing without sacrificing impact or our well-being?

• 58:20Speaker 00

  It's a good question because I feel like it's what I've been grappling with as well. I know one place I like to start with is...

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Asking myself like, is there an impact here? Like, do I have purpose here? Do I have something to give? Instead of, you know, just thinking purely about, you know, things that are practical. And so I think that if there is something that's bigger than yourself also there, that, you know, that's a good indication that you're where you're supposed to be. So that's my first kind of thoughts.

• 58:57Michelle Obama?

  Well, and I, especially Ashley as a woman. Like, guess what? We don't, we can do stuff just for us.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:09Michelle Obama?

  You know? I mean, because I'm just listening and it's like, guess what? You don't have to have a bigger purpose. LeBron doesn't have a bigger purpose. Tom Brady didn't have, doesn't have, didn't have a bigger purpose. I mean, men decide they want to do it. They do it regardless of whether their family wants it or anybody wants it, you know? Sometimes it's grounded and what do you, what, what does your heart tell you you want?

• 59:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:39Michelle Obama?

  And I think as women, it's okay for us to look at what we want and to start from that place of, how does this make me feel? What, what am I getting out of it? You know? And, and it's okay to start there as a woman. You know, we don't have to have a bigger purpose. You, your goal, there's a lot of things that we will do around the table, will impact other people. And that's for all of us as people who grew up with service in our minds, that's always going to be there, you know? So it's not even like you gotta put that in your head or, you know, if Ashley doesn't have to put that in her head because it's already there. But I think it's okay to be driven by the thing that you care about. You know?

• 1:00:23Michelle Obama?

  I tell young people, if you don't know what you want to be, then start thinking about what you like. You know, what you enjoy, what, what, what? If you're going to do something really well, it, you've got to have some level of excitement. To get up every day and train for the next several years to qualify for the Olympics. You, you, Allison, have to wanna get up every day. Because nobody's gonna be watching the process. Just like you said, that's the, that's the curse of the Olympic athlete. You train in the dark, you, you leave in the dark, and there's one meet. There's one chance. That's all it is. It's how many seconds?

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, 21 in 200 meters.

• 1:01:10Michelle Obama?

  And then everything else, you know, people may not care, you may not get anything afterwards. So it's all about what you want. And I think for Ashley and for anyone out there making choices, I think it's perfectly fine to start with, what do, what will bring me joy? What will get me out of bed? And if the thing I'm doing right now isn't doing that, then let me, let me take some time to figure that out.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Michelle Obama?

  And I think young people have to understand that, you know, in life, you know, you, you don't pick a one thing oftentimes and do it forever.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Michelle Obama?

  The world isn't even designed like that anymore. You know, gone are the days when our grandparents retired from 35 years and got the gold watch. You know, companies, corporations don't show that kind of loyalty to people as we saw with Nike. Yes. You know, so you have to be wired to have some level of flexibility to analyze where am I now? Is it time for me to move on? And some of that's gonna come from what's happening day to day. Are you lose, is there no, no longer a path? Way for you that makes you excited in what you're doing? You know, there, there may not be the support at your, in your current activity that gives you the signal that maybe it's time for you to some, do something else.

• 1:02:31Michelle Obama?

  So there are many cues in life, but the ability to remain flexible.

• 1:02:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Michelle Obama?

  You know, and to be nimble. You know, just even having a nimble mind in constantly thinking about your situation and what's coming next. I think that also helps to prepare you and to give you the, the clues to whether it's time to do something else.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Craig Robinson?

  Been great.

• 1:02:58Michelle Obama?

  You know, it has been, it's like

• 1:03:00Craig Robinson?

  Been really

• 1:03:01Michelle Obama?

  Talking to a mirror image.

• 1:03:03Craig Robinson?

  It's really wild.

• 1:03:06Michelle Obama?

  Without the medals, but you know. And the shoe company.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  I think you're doing okay.

• 1:03:15Michelle Obama?

  But this is exciting. You know, I, I, I, I hope you document the journey. I know you wanna, you might wanna do it in quiet, but I think, you know, the way you train, the, you know, the way you mentally prepare, the, you know, how you move through life, you know, just as in She Runs the World. That is a powerful way to tell a story.

• 1:03:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is a story that I hope people can connect with and I hope go through it with me. So, yeah, we'll definitely wanna bring everyone in.

• 1:03:54Michelle Obama?

  Well, we're gonna be there with you. We support you, cheer you both on.

• 1:04:02Michelle Obama?

  Please keep us in mind. And if you wanna come back on to talk about the journey as you're going through it. If you wanna, you know, if you wanna scream, yell, shout, you know, we would, we welcome you back any, anytime.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Thank you so much.

• 1:04:17Craig Robinson?

  I know nothing about track, but I am a good cheerleader, so.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  Strong coach.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Strong coach in all, so.

• 1:04:26Craig Robinson?

  You get that early morning and you just don't feel it, just, just give us a call.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  I appreciate that. I will.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  How does it feel like telling someone outside of?

• 1:04:37Michelle Obama?

  You say that loud.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  She just told her mom yesterday.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  This is like, this is really.

• 1:04:43Michelle Obama?

  How does it feel?

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  It feels like, it feels good. It feels. It feels like it's something I'm supposed to do. Yeah. Like, no matter how it ends up. Good. I think, you know, Craig, what you said, it's the journey. And it's one I'm excited to take. I'm a little scared, but I think that, well, I hope that it's one that other people also can understand that, you know, we might be doing different things, but it's the same. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

• 1:05:35Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. On this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers really unfold. Through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception, they are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.