Stay Curious with Debbie Allen and Phylicia Rashad

This week, multi-hyphenate sisters Debbie Allen and Phylicia Rashad join the show to discuss growing up in a supportive Houston household, the legacy of education in their family, and the HBCU experience at Howard University. Plus, they talk about Netflix’s reboot of A Different World, and how they developed careers in acting, dancing, producing and directing as two of the most iconic women in show business. In this episode: Dr. Kathleen Jordan, Chief Medical Officer, of Midi Health. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at ⁠imopod.com⁠ http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Y'all are beautiful. Aging gracefully, beautifully, elegantly. Untouched, unpulled, unplugged, un... unfilled.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm special. You are the best. That's the best analogy I've ever heard. I love that. Please put that in so I can copy that again. That needs to be on a T-shirt somewhere.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Nitty Health.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Well, look who's here. How are you?

• 0:39Speaker 00

  I have not seen you in a while.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  And before we really begin, we, you know, everybody noticed that Craig is sporting some rose-colored glasses. It's like, what, what, what do you? Let's, we have to explain to our audience what's going on.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  You know, when "Two Chains" was on, he had those yellow glasses. And I was like, I want to be cool like "Two Chains."

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Well, you need some chains, too.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  You just got the glasses.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  I just got the glasses. No, no. So what happened, folks, is I have been having the sty problem with my eye.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And y'all don't want to see it.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  I'm, I've been more self-conscious about it than anyone else. And my wife was like, you can't go do the show like that. Why don't you go get some sunglasses?

• 1:25Speaker 00

  I'm glad you got glasses on. I mean, that style would be like another host.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Listen, I have gotten so...

• 1:30Speaker 00

  It's like, welcome to IMO with Craig, Michelle, and the sty.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  That's mean.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  You, uh, you doing good?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  I'm doing well.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Mr. Sty?

• 1:45Speaker 02

  I'm doing well. I feel good. We've had a great summer.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  You have two grown men in high school.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  In high school.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  IMO listeners.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Two adults. And then now, two high schoolers.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  The boys are in high school, both of them.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Large and in charge.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  I know, I know. And tall and...

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Handsome.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're doing stuff.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  And Austin sporting his twists.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Which Malia loved in the, in the family chat. She was like, way to rock the twists. Because when Malia was 10, 11, 8, 9, she wore twists.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  So you know...

• 2:23Speaker 00

  They look alike, too.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  They do look alike. They look alike with the twists. But you know what's next up.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Uh, what?

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Yes, go ahead, say it.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Earring?

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:33Speaker 00

  Hey!

• 2:33Speaker 02

  That's, that's next on the agenda.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Hey, is that this year?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  I'm stalling, I'm stalling.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  What are we stalling for?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't know.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  What do we, what do we, what do we think's gonna happen?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  I, I, I figure if anybody, any males should get an earring, it should be me before them.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Well, why don't you do a joint piercing?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  IMO listeners, joint piercing, joint piercing, joint piercing. You get a little diamond stud to go with your rose-colored, sty-covered glasses. You'd be killing it.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  You're very funny, very funny.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  We...

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh. Craig is gonna do a proper, official introduction because our two guests are the queens of the queens of all the queens. And they deserve a complete, proper introduction. With Craig is gonna look at and read thoroughly because we don't want to leave anything out.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  And, and they should know, there was a lot of discussion about what we should put on there. They're so accomplished. So forgive us if we haven't put everything in there. It was a fight, it was a fight in the production meeting.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  All right, get it done, get it done, focus.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  So first, Felicia Rashad...

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Did you all hear that? Felicia Rashad...

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Is an accomplished actor and stage director.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Let me aim in to the whole introduction.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Who became a household name. And I mean, household name.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  That's an understatement.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  For her role as Claire Hustable on the NBC sitcom...

• 4:01Speaker 00

  She raised us all.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  "The Cosby Show." Not only raised us all, but gave such great examples of parenthood. You know, it was, I, I'm so excited.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Okay, finish, finish.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  I got, I got like goosebumps. It's hot in here. She has also appeared in "The Gilded Age," "This Is Us," and "Empire," among other popular television shows. On stage, Felicia has appeared in "A Raisin in the Sun," "Into the Woods," "Dreamgirls," "Jim of the Ocean," and "The Wiz." Debbie Allen...

• 4:32Speaker 00

  They're both here!

• 4:35Speaker 02

  I can't believe they're both here. Is an award-winning actress, dancer, choreographer, singer, director, and producer. She has starred in classics like the 1980s musical drama television series, Fame!

• 4:48Speaker 00

  I'm gonna live forever.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  And has earned six Emmy Awards, a Golden Globe. We are very silly, I'm so sorry. Five NAACP Image Awards, a Drama Desk, and their first Astaire Award. In 2001, she and her husband, Norm Nixon, founded the nonprofit Debbie Allen Dance Academy in Los Angeles. Felicia and Debbie...

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Welcome to IMO!

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Welcome to our house!

• 5:25Speaker 02

  So happy to see you.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  My God, you guys are... Look at you!

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Thanks for being here.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  You're here!

• 5:33Speaker 02

  So nice to...

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having us together.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Well, that, I am so excited that both of you are here together.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  I know, that's the best part, other than sitting here talking with you guys, is that she and I are together. We're not together enough. Look at you two, sisters together. Oh my God, two of the most iconic women in the business. Y'all are, you, you can't even, no, it's not triple threat, quadruple threat. It's like quintuplet threat. It's like, it's all the threats that you all are. And, uh, award-winning, producing, directing, acting, all the stuff. But rarely do you guys sit down together to do interviews.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  So we feel incredibly honored.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, we do, too.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  To have you both here. Why did you, why did you guys choose to sit down together?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Because you asked. You invited us.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Now, she knew that. She just wanted to make sure. She wanted to hear you say that.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Everybody doesn't ask. But once people knew we were coming, my phone was jumping off the hook. Everybody was calling. Well, can y'all, um, no, honey, no, baby. We're going over here first. Then y'all can talk to us after. It's great to be here together.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Oh my goodness.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Felicia and I have done a couple of good things together. We did Polly, when we did the movie for Disney. And we did "The Old Setler" for PBS Presents. It was their first movie. We got such rave reviews, playing these two old dowges living in Harlem together. And she was trying to run off with a young man. That's another story.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  Okay, well, we get to all that. You know, the sister bond. We were just talking before we, before we sat down, because you were asking about the girls and how they're doing and growing up. And the thing that I always think about is like, they are uniquely close, almost irritatingly so, because they live together. But when we're all together as a family, we're all close. They have, they just are like magnets to each other. And when they talk about that, they say, you know, we are the only two who've been through what we've been through. You know? And I think, you know, because it is true,

• 8:02Speaker 00

  whether we were in Russia, visiting the Kremlin, or seeing the Queen, you know, they're the two little kids in the midst of this, trying to make sense of all that was going on. And I think they have a special language and a special sense of understanding of each other. Do you guys have that? Is that similar, your sisterhood, your relationship? Is it that kind of magnetic bond? Given that you're both in the same industry and...

• 8:37Speaker 01

  I hadn't considered that. But mommy said...

• 8:43Speaker 03

  She said, "The one way, the one thing that will ensure that you will remain very close is that you have the same interests."

• 8:53Speaker 03

  She said that to me when I was a teenager. "As surely as you have the same interests," she said, "you will be very close."

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Was it intentional because of that? Did she put you guys in the same things? Because was she trying to make it so?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  No, I think what she did was she observed our interests. Melissa was early on singing and acting, acting out. And I was dancing at like three years old. My brother Tex was playing the trumpet. And so she was looking for what she always said, leading from behind.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Which, you know, which was the thing. So she made sure we, you know, it was always a fight. Because we grew up in that whole Jim Crow era where everything was segregated and just, just fighting to get us the best opportunities to develop. And she also made sure that we both knew that we better get out here and do something in the world. She was kind of critical about us using our gifts to do something. What are you gonna do?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  And when did she see your gifts versus when you felt like you had gifts?

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Very early. Mommy, but another thing she used to say is if people really understood, they would know that their children are their best form of entertainment.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  It is.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  No joke, no joke.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  So she was, she had her own interests, you know? She had her own work, but she never neglected observing us, paying attention to us, listening to what we had to say and watching what we would do very naturally. She really thought about that a lot, advocated it for educators as well. So she observed us. She corrected us.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Terrorized us.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Nurtured us.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, she saw it very early. She, she saw, she saw it in us as little children. And she would create the avenues for development. She would actually create the avenues.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  What does that look like?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  It looks like, I can say this, because I wanted to dance and schools that were more professional were all segregated. And she says so many times that when I was like eight years old, "How am I gonna get to be a dancer if I don't get the lessons, Mama? What are you gonna do about it?" I said that to her. And what she did was she went out and she found this man who had been a retired dancer with the Russian company, who was a businessman in Houston, and talked him into coming to our house and teaching me ballet.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  She took the railing off the wall to go upstairs and made it my dance studio, the living room. She created that.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  She found a piano teacher for me who was a concert pianist. She would find the people to teach us. She would, and she didn't stop with us. She did it with her grandchildren, too. She would find the people.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  What was the, your household like? Because there was Houston, right?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  And then there was a move. But I'm just curious about what, what did it feel like in your house? Was there always music? Was there a lot of talking? You know, you said that your mom listened to you and enjoyed your voice, which was the same thing as mine. And you guys both met my mom.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was amazing.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  You know, and when you talk about your mother and how she watched you all, we, we felt that, you know? That we were, that my, our parents loved our voice and they loved engaging with us. And that made a huge difference. I'm just trying to get a feel for what your household was like as a child, as children.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  There were lots of books. Because when we were children, African-American people were allowed to go to the library on Tuesday only in Houston. So Mommy found ways to purchase books. So there were, I mean, I go in, I can look at some of these books today and they take me all the way back to my fourth year as a child because I remember them on the shelf. And there were artists, John Biggers, Joseph Mack, Carol Sims. These were all artists. And they were teaching at Texas Southern University. And they would come to our home and they'd have these great discussions.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  And they would get very, talk about drama. Get loud and we would be little children hiding up underneath the carpet table, looking at them going from side to side. It was interesting to us as children, you know?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  It was amazing to watch Mommy creating her own mythology with these artists. That's what I say because she wrote this incredible book, Hawk, which is her legacy project about man's transformation to a higher existence. And it was really her story because she was struggling and fighting to be that hawk, to live in a higher plane and take her children and everybody she could get to pay attention to go with her. And so.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  What was your mother's story?

• 14:21Speaker 03

  She was born in Chester, South Carolina.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  Her, her father was a blacksmith. Her mother was a student at Hampton University. It was Hampton Institute at the time. They had both grown up in Chester, the families. And that was the Ayers family. That was my mother's father and Graham's, my mother's mother. They lived on that same little block and used to play across the yard, across the fence as children. And they attended Brainerd Institute, one of those schools established by the Presbyterian. In her family at that time, I would say when she was very young, it was her mother, Vivian, yes, her sister, Sarah Mildred, and the youngest one was Aunt Sunday, Roberta.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  And my grandmother died when my mother was nine. She contracted tuberculosis, taking care of a family that didn't have anybody to take care of them. And she would go, you know, to help out. And so, so my grandfather remarried and he married a beautiful,

• 15:30Speaker 03

  tall, dark-skinned woman named Bessie. She was a teacher. She was a scholar. She was something else. And there were three other children. So this is, there was my Uncle Junior, Robert, and then there was my Aunt Bessie, and then the youngest one, Kenny, who was the darling of the family. They all grew up in this, this house. What I, my memories of this are that it was very warm. There was nothing extravagant about it. My grandfather had built it. It's still standing.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  And it was warm and family was everywhere, you know? Real Southern kind of thing. Education, education was important. My grandfather was a blacksmith who graduated from Johnson C. Smith College. Okay?

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  Education, everybody, it was, you did not take it for granted. It was a privilege, yes, but it was also a responsibility to educate yourself. My mother said there was only one thing in the world in her entire life that she was afraid of, and that was being ignorant.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. We're gonna talk about a topic that fortunately is getting a lot more attention.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Rightly so.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  It's getting, it's getting more attention and it's impacting a lot of families. Well, I want to invite someone here to help navigate this conversation. And let's bring out Dr. Kathleen Jordan. Dr. Jordan, so nice to see you.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Great to see you. Welcome to IMO.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thanks for being on. Let me scoot your chair in if you need it. There you go.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Well, thank you for being here. Well, you know, it's, I, I, I think in my way of talking about all aspects of my life, it just felt like my menopause journey was a part of that. Um, so I'm just glad that, you know, there are more and more, well, women who are sharing their experiences and more medical, uh, experts who were weighing in and, and giving us the guidance that we haven't had for so long.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many, many challenges that come. You had the joy of meeting that challenge while the whole world watched in the White House. Um, but really you opened up the conversation, which has been great. And I think it's really important because this time of life is so filled with changes, right? The hormone changes is not just about hot flashes and night sweats. Um, it really impacts women really greatly. And I always say that what we do about perimenopause and menopause, yes, it makes women feel better in the moment. It helps us navigate our days, but it also impacts our long-term health.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  Like there is very real changes. And that's really why I helped found Midi and why we treat all these women at Midi Health.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  And, and in addition to being a founder of Midi Health, you are the chief medical officer at Midi Health. Can you tell us what exactly is Midi Health?

• 18:58Speaker 04

  Oh, I'd be delighted. So Midi Health is a telehealth clinic made for women. And we really, we're founded to really meet the huge care gap for women in perimenopause and menopause, which means we can help guide women through the hormone conversation. Is it right for them? If it is, what formulation to take? But it's actually a lot bigger than that, right? It's a lot bigger than that. And menopause care is much broader experience, right? So we help women with skin and hair changes. We help with the bone loss that starts in perimenopause, we now know. Cardiovascular risk go up. Weight goes up, right? That was one of my big experiences.

• 19:40Speaker 04

  But libido changes, mood changes, we have more anxiety, we have more depression, we have a lot of challenges. So some women come to Midi with one problem. Maybe they have doctors serving them for all their health needs. They may come just to have the hormone conversation or just to have weight, help with weight or skin and hair. And then other women haven't seen a doctor in five to 10 years, since their last baby was born and their baby is now 10, right? Because what we do in these decades, what we do in our 40s, 50s and 60s really dictates what our 70s, 80s and hopefully 90s look like. And I think it's really critical.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's amazing. I was always surprised at, you know, the notion that our, as a woman, our health stopped after childbirth, almost. And if you aren't educated or informed, I mean, I've always been a go to the doctor every year. I think, you know, we, we came out of, um, our eight years at the White House with excellent healthcare and you work in, you know, you get in that rotation. But I think the point you make that, you know, it's almost like women drop off the face of the healthcare map after we stop reproducing. And that's, that feels tragic to me.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Midi sounds like it's really made, helped women, um, make it easier for women to get access to care.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  Well, that was one of the goals. We really wanted women to access care. And to do that, you have to make it easy, right? So we use telehealth. I love telehealth as an access solution. It means you don't have to live near an expert. You don't have to live in a major city even. We can reach you in any zip code. And then we thought it was really important also to take insurance because for a lot of decades, um, this kind of expert care was really only available to women who could afford cash pay practices, who provided wonderful care. But really all women deserve this and we've really worked hard to create a platform that can deliver this care to women.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. So Dr. Jordan, tell us how folks can go about getting care, this kind of care.

• 21:57Speaker 04

  Okay, well, we've worked really hard to make it as easy as possible. So you can go to our website, which is joinmidi.com. That's join M-I-D-I dot com. And really the website helps you navigate. You can book an appointment right there. We have availability in all 50 states and you start your journey there. You can come with one question, one issue, or some women come and just say, what should I do?

• 22:25Speaker 02

  And that's join M-I-D-I dot com.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Daddy was Baton Rouge and they had, we still had this over 90 acre farm that had been given to our ancestors during the Civil War, when somehow, at that time, we protected the slave masters' gold and they gave us this property. But it's, um, a legacy to go to Louisiana where we spent our summers going, hiding under the house so we didn't have to do chores and going out in the pasture and, you know, seeing milk and cows and getting eggs and chickens. I mean, we grew up with that rural, very real, um, family experience.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  And a lot of cousins.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Lot of cousins, aunts and uncles.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Did you, back then, feel a pressure to be excellent because of the?

• 23:30Speaker 04

  Legacy.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  The legacy of accomplishment at, and time when there, I mean, y'all were doing stuff folks, probably a lot of folks were doing, but nobody would hear about it. I mean, that feels like a, a lot of pressure on you as kids to be, okay.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  I don't feel that. We grew up, we grew up with teachers who lived in our community and who knew our parents. And they insisted upon excellence. First of all, they said, because you can. Yeah. And second of all, because I know where you live. But our biggest pressure was our mother. Mother was looking at, mama was looking at us individually and she was expecting us to live up to expectation, you know, potential. Yep. And as, as we grew older and older, even like when I went to, by the time I had gone to that school that wouldn't admit me in, in Houston and went to my audition for college. And at that audition, they used me to demonstrate, but they didn't accept me. And it was like the biggest blow. Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  When I had to call home and say, daddy's like, all right, gal, when you start and daddy, they didn't take, girl, stop playing. It was so painful. But when I got to the airport, mommy met me in tears. And what did she say? She said, Deborah, you failed. She wasn't letting me be a victim. She wasn't gonna let me blame this white man that told me I needed to find a different profession. Yeah. She was putting it on me. And it took me a while to understand how much she was loving me.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  I just do wanna understand your personalities and birth early. We are the youngest, Debbie. And so I am accused of being bossy.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Wait, hold up, hold up, accused?

• 25:16Speaker 00

  That's not funny. That's not funny.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Well, Felicia's laughing.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  You're the only one not laughing. Debbie's like, oh, man.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  I think there must be something to being the younger person.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  And to seeing, uh, people who are not so older, so much older than you, having a little bit more authority or something. And, and there's something in the spirit of a human being that won't accept that.

• 25:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, wait.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  And yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Not only not accept it. So growing up, this was my best friend. She did everything I did. Everything. Sports, running around outside, games. I mean, everything.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  And what I can appreciate that I took from mom and dad, that I applied to my own children, is that just because she was a girl didn't mean she couldn't do certain things. And I was, you know, at the time, I didn't know my parents were so savvy. But as I got older and realized, this, this monster we created, um, it's, it's, it was smart. It was smart.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Well, see, that's the difference because I did the same thing with Felicia, but she didn't like it. I followed her everywhere. I wanted to wear her clothes. When she left home, I put on her clothes. I wanted to use her bobby pins. I want, when she had friends over, I'd come in, they'd go, look at little Debbie, isn't she cute? And Felicia was like, mom, get her out of here, get her out of here. So Felicia really got tired of me. She wanted me out. But it's interesting, as we grew, the bond just was inseparable.

• 27:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  It was like I was the little sister that was annoying, a little bug that needs to go away.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  When did it click? How old were you when you saw each other as friends?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Felicia's like, I'm still not sure.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  I'm trying to remember.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  I wanna hear what she has to say.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  I was like, I think the year of separation, when I went to Howard.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And Debbie was still in high school.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  I think that's when it began.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  I remember when Deborah auditioned for the North Carolina School of the Arts. And it was during the spring break at Howard. So she came to Howard immediately after that audition. And it was another world for her to see, you know, and experience. And that was good. But I, I remember her disappointment. I remember how she felt. You see, we had always been number one.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  You know.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  The light of the, and you know, your family, understanding your excellence and seeing it, being in a community that saw your excellence. And then to go out into that world and have them, which you probably knew was unfairly, tell you no.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  Oh, he said to her, she didn't have the body of a dancer. That was after using her to demonstrate all the combinations for everyone else to follow, which would make any young person feel confident that they were accepted. Right?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. But so her hurt was very palpable to me. I had never seen or felt that in my sister before, and it hurt me too.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  And the pride and the joy in each other is clear. I was watching your, um, uh, your acceptance speech for your honorary Oscar, which was beautiful and having the whole family there, you know? And I, they panned in to your expression. And it, it was, you might as well have been right up there with her.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yes, she was.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  She was. No competition, no feeling, because this is like, I don't, I never felt competitive with my brother. But I always said, well, maybe that's because he was a boy and we were so clearly, we had our own lanes.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  Um, but I, you know, I, my, my, my girls don't feel competitive. And I'm just wondering, you know, when, how does that happen? Or how do you avoid it? And what do you think your mom got right? Or your parents got right?

• 29:48Speaker 03

  I think if there was any competition that I felt, um, I always felt that Debbie was beautiful and that I was not.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  And the whole room, all the men were like, what?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  What? Yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, but children, young girls, come on.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  So it wasn't until we were college graduates, right? And we were living together in an apartment on 84th Street. And it's Christmas, and this is the first Christmas in our lives where we're not going to be with family other than each other. And neither one of us had steady employment. But there was a little jewelry store around the corner and we had secretly gone in to buy gifts for each other. And we bought earrings for each other.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, you did not know.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  No, we didn't know.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  So it was Christmas Eve in the night and we're sitting there with the smoked turkey that our father sent us. So we'd have some semblance of home. And we're sitting there and I, okay, well, um, I, I have something for you. And, oh, I have something for you too. And so we exchanged the things and we opened them up. And it was then, and I don't remember what led to the conversation, but I, I said to Deborah that I had always wanted to be beautiful like her. And she looked at me, she said, but you're the beautiful one. You're the one, I was always trying to be beautiful like you. Then we broke down and started crying.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Right. I'm about to cry here. It's here, that's the truth.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  You know, we grew up with that foolishness, that, that.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Colorism, foolishness. Because, you know, that brown paper bag foolishness. And I remember one time Felicia loved chocolate milk. And we were drinking chocolate milk and my uncle said to her, girl, you better drink all the white milk you can. And wow, that was so ugly. It was really ugly. And I think that's why Felicia felt, but Felicia looked more like mama than me. And I wished I was always pretty like her. Always, always.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Well, but that's also a way to keep us girls guessing and feeling insecure about ourselves too. Because it's like the notion that an uncle would say anything. I mean, we're really careful about like, you know, the men in our family, you know, commenting about the girls, you know? Even out of love or caring, it's like, don't let it come from your lips, you know? It's, it is a different, don't crit, don't critique, don't ask. Barack, Barack is like, if you got something to say about something they got on, tell me.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  But I want them to feel, both of them to feel like you think. The sun and the moon rises and sets on them. Because young girls need to feel that from the men in their lives. To, to, you know, ward off all the ugliness that is out there waiting for us.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  All the ugliness, the social media of it all is so difficult. I guess I, I'm very sensitive to it because of the Debbie on Dance Academy have so many young girls.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  And young people that are bullied or feel lesser or, you know, do whatever. And I just try to make them forget about anybody. And it, it's why I never did a competition, because I want my students to compete with themselves in class.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Thank you, yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Not with something outside and that, you know, the way you look is not how I accept students in my school.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  This whole judgment thing is just, I don't, I don't want to diminish that, those great points, um, but I won't.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Thanks, Craig.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  But I, but, but, because there's so much stuff we want to talk about, especially Howard. But before we get there, I am fascinated by the fact that you all moved to Mexico when you were young. And if, if you can, can you tell us how that came about? And how it was and what it did for your development? I, I just can't even imagine back then, moving to Mexico and living. I know my, my, my parents.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Your mother is like, we getting out of the country.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  We are going to another place.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Euclid, let alone going to Mexico.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that's such a great story. Mommy was, she tired of America and the constraints and all the eyes on her and her friends. She, it was not unusual for us to come home and we had friends that were Indian, Dr. Rao and his family, we learned about vegetarianism. She had a friend, Rainier, who was a physicist at Rice University, all the artists that came in and out of the house. There was always such diversity. And she got tired of being in a car and being stopped.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And saying, why is she in the car? You know, that kind of thing or being, or us not being able to go to dance class or whatever it was. And I don't know why she picked Mexico, but she did. And I just remember my daddy crying all the way to the Greyhound bus station. I don't know what your mama's doing. I don't know why, where is she taking my children? I should turn this car around? Daddy, it's gonna be okay. I don't know. And when we got there and, um, we went to Mexico and it was one of the greatest things that ever happened.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  And we didn't know what it was gonna be.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  As I recall, one of the things, uh, mother, or the thing that she tired of most was materialism. It wasn't politics. It was materialism, uh, and the insistence upon it as a way to live. And she, you know, she knew that that was not the truth of the human spirit. And, uh, she was holding herself accountable.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  My mother's thinking, okay. So she walked in the house one day and she said, oh, I had had enough of this materialistic environment. We're moving. Well, that wasn't unusual for us.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Because we were moving a lot.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Because we were moved, but we were always staying in the same community and the same neighborhood. We didn't have to change schools. We would just change houses, a lot. Like, yeah, right. So we just like, say, okay, Ma, we're going this time. We're, we're going to Mexico City. Now, I was 13 and I had plans for my father.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  I'm sure you did.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  And Mexico City was not one of them. I was livid. I was going to do a hunger strike. I was going to starve myself to death and she'd be sorry. That lasted all the way to San Antonio.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  And then you were like, I'm a hungry, I'll tell you, this one, this one. Did you declare the hunger strike?

• 37:06Speaker 03

  I, I just didn't say, as, once again, I wasn't going to tell anybody. I was just going to do it. San Antonio, I ate everything in sight. We, we arrived in Mexico City. We didn't speak a word of Spanish and we didn't know a soul. My mother was fearless. Somehow within herself, this was the right thing to do. And she had a way of attracting good people to her and meeting good people. So it wasn't long before she was in a circle of artists and intellectuals and expatriates

• 37:47Speaker 03

  and people who were American citizens, living in Mexico, working, you know? It, it didn't take her long.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  She's built a community for you.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  She was like this.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. I'm wearing one of their shirts right now. And hey, granted, I'm not exactly hauling lumber, but this fabric has held up through hours of yard work, home repairs, and whatever do it yourself projects Kelly is hatching. Duluth Trading Company makes gear for people who don't mind rolling up their sleeves. Everything is built with thoughtful details, durable construction, and comfort that actually lasts. I'm talking about their work pants with smarter storage, their moisture wicking shirts, and their everyday gear that complements your nine to five and your five to nine. Duluth has had that Midwestern spirit

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• 40:17Speaker 02

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• 40:26Speaker 00

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. Craig, you would be surprised at how little most women know about the care of our bodies.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many, many challenges that come. The hormone changes is not just about hot flashes and night sweats. It really impacts women really greatly. And that's really why I helped found Midi and why we treat all these women at Midi Health.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Can you tell us what exactly is Midi Health?

• 41:03Speaker 04

  I'd be delighted. So Midi Health is a telehealth clinic made for women. And we really were founded to really meet the huge care gap for women in perimenopause and menopause, which means we can help guide women through the hormone conversation. Is it right for them? If it is, what formulation to take? But it's actually a lot bigger than that. We really built it to meet women's needs in midlife. So you can go to our website, which is joinmidi.com. That's join M-I-D-I dot com. And really, the website helps you navigate. You can book an appointment right there. We have availability in all 50 states. And you start your journey there. You can come with one question, one issue,

• 41:47Speaker 04

  or some women come and just say, what should I do?

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Did she work? Did your parents work during that period?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  My mother's a poet. Yeah, that was her work.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  That was her work?

• 42:02Speaker 03

  That was her work. And then she dove into everything conquistadores. She was translating Spanish when we came back, translating the works of Los Conquistadores. She studying the Mayan calendar in depth.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  In Spanish.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  This is our mom, even as she continued, or I should say, delved into Greek classical studies at Rice University. This was our mom. It's like she don't stop learning. You don't stop growing. This is a fantastic world in which we live, created by goodness, infinity. You're part of it.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Everywhere in the world.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  This is how, this is how she thought and how she lived.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  How she raised us to be children of the universe. Every Sunday, the murals of Diego Rivera, we saw a reflection of the people in Mexico with the black people in America. We understood there was a connection. And I just think of it as one of the most culturally rich experiences of our lives. Besides that, it was the first time we went to a Woolworth's counter and could order lunch. Because at home, we couldn't go. And Felicia and I crept up because they kind of looked brown like us. So we said, okay, let's see what's happening. We went up to the counter. We went up to the counter. Hamburger. Que tu quieres?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  We didn't know. Hamburger? Oh, hamburguesa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that. Two, two, two. Oh, dos. We ordered for the first time at a lunch counter where we couldn't do it at home. And it was like, wow, mama was right. Mama was right that this, that we were going through, was not the universe. This, where we were in Mexico, was getting us to the universe, that we were part of a universal community, a world that not only accepted us, but helped us. I could go to the Bala Nacional and take class where I couldn't take it at home. I trained and performed and danced right along everybody else.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  And it was incredible. And Felicia learning Spanish helped her book The Cosby Show.

• 44:29Speaker 04

  I'm sure.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  They were impressed by her Spanish, along with her acting.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  They wanted the wife to be, they wanted the wife to be bilingual.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  And so I had that, that skill.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Wait, how long were you all there?

• 44:44Speaker 03

  We were only there for one semester.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Like just the whole?

• 44:48Speaker 03

  First semester.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Wait a minute, then we came back. My father took one look at us and enrolled us in school. And then Debbie.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  And my brother was like, what? They're in school, they're enrolled.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  That summer, mommy went back to collect the things that we had left. So Debbie and Tex, my brother, went. And I stayed with my dad.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  Well, you know, your mother understood so much, but the importance of exposure and experience. And that's another thing that, you know, you don't have to go to Mexico to do it.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  No.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  But it is, it changes the trajectory of a, of a young person's sense of possibility just to see something else outside of their home, their neighborhood, the same thing, you know? Your mother was an extremist.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  In this way, it's like, oh, dad.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  Yes, she was.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  But it's, you know, you survived it too. I mean, there must have been some sense of self-satisfaction that you just did that hard thing. And it didn't break you. It didn't change you. It didn't define you.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  I want to hear just a little bit about your dad and your brother and how they navigated being down in the South and the, how it, how it was different for them back then, if you recall.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Well, daddy was one of 10 children, nine of which survived. And he was the first to go to college.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  He wasn't the first.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  After Uncle Lloyd?

• 46:34Speaker 03

  Uncle Lloyd was the oldest. No, Velma Lee was the oldest. They were all afforded a college education.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  They all turned into college?

• 46:41Speaker 03

  My grandfather was a fireman on South Pacific Railroad. And I don't know how he did it. But he determined that all of his children would be college educated. All of them did not finish.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  But they were all afforded that opportunity. And he made that happen for them.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  So maybe it was that daddy was the first one to go further because he went to dental school. I just remember him being the first of something. But daddy was the most handsome man. He and mommy were the most beautiful couple. Oh, my God, when I look at the pictures of him and them together, it was magical. And it was, daddy was always so supportive of what we were doing. He didn't always understand it, but he supported it. I remember when, the summer when Felicia was invited to come to the Negro Ensemble in New York. A young girl going off to New York by herself was like blasphemy to some people. Mama's like, please. Daddy supported it. And it was amazing.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Daddy supported every show that we did. He was so loved, such a gregarious and loving human being, so well-loved by the community and his, you know, fraternity with all the other medical professionals. And he catapulted us into that kind of hierarchy of the black community that, you know, he and mom had divorced. And he had remarried.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  How old were you when they divorced?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I was probably, what, four, turning five? Yeah. And that was difficult for us. We didn't understand it.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  You know, we were sent off to stay with our aunt, and I just didn't understand it. And I blame mommy.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  And it wasn't really her fault.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  Just like little girls.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Just like, "My daddy don't do no wrong." I know.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  Don't wrong.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  And yet, I was kind of daddy's girl, but it was so clear Felicia was his favorite. Felicia, she hates to hear this. Because anytime something, he would take Felicia. He wouldn't take, he would, you know this truth.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  I don't know that's true.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  I remember this because I was left out. And I know. And he just loved her. He loved all of us.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  But her.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  But there was something about Felicia. He would take her. When he'd come to grab somebody, anyway. But he supported his children in a way. He was proud of us. And he was very loving. And he grew up with a family that was very complex. Very complex.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  And very different from him.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Very different from him.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  It amazed me. And I didn't really consider it until his funeral, when I sat at the dinner table and looked around as if I was seeing the family for the first time and realizing how very different he was. He was a self-refined man. You know? He was, like my mother, he was a person who never stopped educating himself. He was a fellow in the American Academy of Dentistry. And they wrote to say, "We wish all of the, we wish all of the doctors were as organized as your father."

• 49:59Speaker 03

  He was a person who loved his family. Very different from them, but he loved them.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  How did the divorce impact you? I mean, loving your daddy like that and being that close to your mom. If it doesn't, you know, if you feel comfortable.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  And before you start, at that time, were there a lot of people getting divorced back then? See, and that's gotta be traumatic too, because you don't have any, any sort of

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Reference.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Reference point.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  My parents had the good sense and common decency to allow us to love them both.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  They never played us against the other. They never used us as tools or as weapons.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  So it sounds like not only did they have the common sense and decency to not pit you guys against each other, they had the common sense and decency to have the kind of relationship that would only nurture you.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  It's so true.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  As we know, there are situations that I listen.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  We just don't understand it.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  You know, fathers or mothers keeping children from the other parent.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  It's just so unfair to the child.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  But we were lucky.

• 51:20Speaker 03

  Very lucky.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  One place I would go back to tomorrow is Paris. I loved how you could spend the morning walking around these quiet little side streets, having incredible savory crepe for lunch. And then suddenly, you're in the middle of this huge, bright, bustling city at night. And being a big food person when I travel, I want to try whatever that city does best. Find that out-of-the-way neighborhood spot, maybe order something I've never had before. Paris is the ideal place for that. I could spend a month there and still feel like I barely scratched the surface. Trips like that always make me think about how much of the world I still want to see. Of course, the only problem with having a long travel wish list is eventually, somebody has to pay for it, which got me thinking.

• 52:13Speaker 02

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• 56:46Speaker 00

  So Howard days, together at Howard. What, because your father went, was it just a foregone conclusion?

• 56:55Speaker 03

  It was his foregone.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. He's like, mm. Did you apply anywhere else?

• 57:01Speaker 05

  Did you consider anywhere else?

• 57:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. He said, she said, you could, you could apply anywhere you want, darling.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Knock yourself out.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  He said, but you're going to Howard.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  I tried. They'd rejected me and I was grateful years later. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, to be somewhere where I could be nurtured and embraced. It was like being that metamorphosis, like becoming a butterfly. Going to Howard was what that was like for me.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  Can you talk about that? I mean, because I, you know, it's important to talk about the values of HBCUs.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Ooh, yes.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Especially now, we're at a time where, you know, we don't believe in diversity, D E I, or whatever. So it's like, okay, let's, let's go back to our schools.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  First, first and foremost, I think it's important to recognize the scholarship. Cause that's really what it was about. Some of the most incredible professors who had trained, some of them had been educated, some of them, in predominantly white institutions, but would never be hired there. So they taught in historically black institutions. So we were privy to the best of the best.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  The best of the best.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  The best of the best.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  I think about, I think about when I was doing the movie Amistad, how it was the Howard University Library that had so much information that I needed, how it was the faculty at Howard that became my advisors, Eleanor Traylor. Incredible faculty. Eleanor Traylor is probably one of the most brilliant minds living right this moment. Harvard and a lot of schools have tried to pull her, but she has stayed dedicated to the HBCU. She grew up, you know, best friends with Toni Morrison and Dr. Maya Angelou, and that's her clique. And so it's very important.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  The HBCU culture is richer than it ever has been. We're just rebooting A Different World. And there's a reason, because it's relevant. That show gave a voice and a face to young black America in a way they hadn't seen, like they hadn't seen on The Cosby Show. Felicia was very responsible for me coming into that, because she had been to the set of A Different World and firsthand saw what was happening that wasn't right.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  I mean, it was so interesting, because I remember, I was a devoted avid watcher of all of it and A Different World. I remember when it changed, because it didn't feel authentic.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  The first year was not.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  You know, that first year, it was really kind of like, what college is this? Now, I didn't go to HBCUs, but I had plenty of friends who did, you know? And so can you talk about that and how you knew that A Different World needed a little special sauce that it wasn't getting?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Hot sauce.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  It's a hot sauce.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  Well, it was really, I was looking at it through a lens of professionalism. Because all of our work in the show we were doing, it was through the lens of professionalism. That's where you're going to present what's authentic. That's the professional thing to do, right? So here I go to do an episode and I just noticed little things about the production staff and the way things were being carried out. And I said, this is not, this is not the way. This is not it. And I looked at the script and the writing and I said, mm, this is not the way. This is not the way we do things.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  This is not the highest level of professionalism. Cause in the highest level of professionalism, you're going to present authenticity and you're going to take yourself out of the box a little bit. You're going to go a little further. If you're talking about an academic environment, yes, you're going to certainly look at the behavior of young people coming together who don't know each other and what that's all about. But you're not going to leave out academia.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  It's preach.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Hello?

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. There was no classroom experience.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  If you do, if you're not talking about that, you're not talking about the truth of the HBCU experience. You're not. Because scholarship is at the heart of it. Oh, yeah, there's the drum line. That's a cultural thing. That's important too. But that chapel? That's the heart of it. The scholarship, the academia, that's the heart of it. That's the heart of it. That's there for the service to whom? The students. You're bringing forth a generation of humanity that must think broader, must know more. That's not going to happen if you just, you know.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Dealing with some basic stuff.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  Please, darling, please.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  So I dare say it was basic until.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  We were walking around with eggs. So I got the call. Felicia went in and I had been directing Fame and I was just getting ready, I was offered Family Ties. That was the next season that I was being offered all of these shows to bring my talent as a director. And Felicia knew about that and I didn't dismiss anybody. I went in there and did the battle for us to come together as a family and to write stories that were culturally relevant. That had to do with academia, but just there was no cultural identity to the show. I mean, how do you do HBCU? Just, I mean, on plain sight, you don't have fraternities, you don't have, just like I said, hot sauce was not on the table.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Yes. Literally not on the table.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  And so, and then we expanded. I was working so closely with Susan Fales Hill, brilliant writer. And we were like sisters on the ground. We were on the ground, guerrilla warfare. And we said, where, I said, where's my Whoopi Goldberg in this cast? And she said, like, yeah, where's our Mary Tyler Moore? Where are the, is the funny, where is that chocolate beautiful sister? And we found Sharnelle Brown, we found Cree Summers. And then I came home one year with a picture of Gary Dordan. And then, you know, we, we made this show such that by the time we did the first A's episode that ever appeared in network television, it wasn't a shock to our community.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  It reverberated in the industry because advertisers and people were pulling out. But we had already put that footprint, changed the footprint of the show.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  It's like, we're saying something here.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Saying something here. You know, we had, I remember the year we did an episode about voter registration when Jesse Jackson was a viable candidate.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And I called him.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  He came to the Colonel's house.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  He, I called him, he said, oh, yes, Debbie, I'm coming, I'm coming. And he changed clothes at my house, coming out of the airport and came in and we also invited George Bush at the same time, but he didn't come, he didn't answer. But we were taking big steps. We were, you know, challenging, not challenging, we were doing what was natural to us. Let's just ask everybody to come in and let's see what you have to say.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  So how, how did the reboot come about? When, what has it decided that it's time?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  We tried, it's like more than 30 years later now. We tried and got very close twice before, like in the 2003 or 12. We tried and we got close, but nobody would say yes to it. Finally Ted Saranus at Netflix said yes. Tom Werner and I had been knocking on doors. But we had a wonderful time with Netflix, because they pushed us to do it with single camera. And that was the right choice. It certainly wasn't my choice, because the audience was always a character in the show.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  But it was the right choice, so we could see a more three dimensional world. What was the different world? And do a show that now became more dramedy, you know?

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  And it's execution and.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Do you feel like you have the leeway to be as bold as the original to?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  I think, I think we do, and I think I'm hoping that we get that second season. So we can go even further.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  Yes, Ted.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  We dealt with a lot of things just from the first episode, the financial crisis that's happening at HBCUs, what's going on.

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  There's so much to talk about right now.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  So much that we need to hear the voice.

• 1:06:13Speaker 00

  But it's going to require some bravery too.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  It takes bravery on the part of not just me and the writers, but the network has to let go and let us do. And they have been, they're, it's just really, we have a wonderful executive, Jasmine Lawson, who went to Spelman herself. And so we'll be looking to her again.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  I cannot wait. On the career trajectory, you both are Broadway sensations. Was that always? Was that the first love? Was that like, we are going to be in theater?

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes. Yes, we had, we had some predecessors in the family who were dancers. And Broadway was there. And we came as college graduates and we looked and we saw it and said, yes. But I had never imagined that I would direct, even though Jeffrey Holder did plant that seed. I was an understudy in The Wiz. I understudied Glenda, The Good Witch of the South. And one day in rehearsal, he said, every actor should think in terms of becoming a director,

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  producer, or every dancer should think in terms of becoming a choreographer, every choreographer should think in terms of becoming a director, producer.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  For, for development?

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Yes, for development.

• 1:07:48Speaker 00

  For that continuation of learning that your mother instilled in you?

• 1:07:52Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  And to come to the work with that understanding, that it's not just, it's got to be deeper. Whatever you do on that stage has to be broader, I think.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  Yes. And that development really helped me a lot as a director, because I understand how to talk to actors.

• 1:08:14Speaker 03

  You see, directing is a number of things. It's not about telling somebody where to go and what to do. Anybody can do that.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  But can you open something in someone's understanding?

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  And do it in a way that opens your own. So it's not just you giving the orders. That's dull and boring to me.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  When I work with people like that, I just look at them.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  Is that your mom right there? That part of you that just came out?

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  So help me understand, because I'm loving this. Because it really reminds me of sports. Player versus coach, but watch yourself over there.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  I'm letting you go.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  What's harder, directing or acting?

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  I don't, harder?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Or more difficult to become or accomplish?

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  One has a broader scope.

• 1:09:11Speaker 03

  One has a broader scope. In acting, it's finding the, for me, the way I approach work, is finding the heart of that character.

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  You know?

• 1:09:25Speaker 03

  That's something, that's something that's singular and individual to me. And then I'm going to take direction and send that the way I'm being asked to go. But the director can't tell me that. I have to find that. If I don't find it, it's not found. And when I'm working with actors as a director,

• 1:09:45Speaker 03

  that's how I'm looking at them. They have to find that. You know, I can look at you and see what you're doing and make, you know, a suggestion or it informs something in me in looking at this overall production of things. But the director's not just working with the actor. The director's working with the text. If the director's really real, in my opinion, going deeper into the playwright's intention. Trying to understand what that is.

• 1:10:24Speaker 03

  With also the understanding that the playwright doesn't necessarily understand all that he or she has written.

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  Because creativity is like that.

• 1:10:32Speaker 00

  It's like that.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Well, for me, directing, I started at Howard University.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  And my teacher identified me as being a director because I took a story about Snow White and wrote a story called Snow Black and changed the whole thing. And she says, wow, Debbie Allen, you are a director. You need to know that. So choreography became a natural progression. On Fame, I was always paying attention when I was in front of the camera, noticing what they were doing. I was always paying attention to what was happening. So when I got the job as the choreographer, I was able to design the choreography with the cameras in mind. And the first director of the pilot, when I was trying to explain it to him, Ashley, unfortunately,

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  patted me on my butt and told me, don't worry yourself about the cameras. And I looked at him and I said, okay, I won't. But if you don't listen to what I'm saying to you, you'll be here till 3:00 in the morning trying to direct and shoot this dance number, and it will be your last episode.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  And I said that just to near fight because I felt like I needed to tell him and I wasn't afraid to say it. I didn't have any women's group or nobody there to stand up with me. I was my mother's child, my sister's sister. And I was standing up. Before the day was over, I was calling action and cut. Because he recognized my ability. And it wasn't anything, you know, forget the sexism, foolishness. It was my ability.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  Trying to get the job done.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  So on Fame, after I had unraveled the DPs of shooting black and white people together, I got my first offer to direct that said, we want Debbie, we want Debbie. And I directed that first day. And I remember trying to figure out how I was going to dress. Wondering, what do I need to look like? Are they going to pay attention to me? Should I wear something sexy? Should I go manish? I wore some pink overalls, my lace socks like I usually do. And I was on it in a way that they were not prepared. I knew what walls were wild. We wrapped one day at 3:30. They said, we want Debbie Allen to direct every show

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  because of the pace at which I worked, but also my ability with the cameras. So that just spread into a whole nother world for me as a director. And my understanding of the dramatic narrative from being a classics major at Howard to studying with Uta Hagen in New York, being one of her best students, I feel. And working with some of the greatest directors, Robbins, Bob Fosse, Donald McHale, and Milos Forman. I mean, I had a sensibility of what I could bring because as an actor, you are looking at it in a different perspective.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  And if you become a director, you have all of that. So it's lighting, it's costuming, it's intent. What is your action need obstacle in this scene? What are you? This one is talking, but who is the most important person in this scene? Might just be listening. Where, you know? So the camera does in film what lighting does on stage. Lighting helps tell you where to look, what's important. The camera can go into your face or can be here. And then, I just have had the most incredible experience becoming a director.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  And so I just feel so confident as a director. And I'm sure it makes me a better actor, and I still act. But the whole experience. And the challenge was deep because there were no women when I started. Nowhere in sight. There was maybe a script supervisor and costume designer. All men. And so I had to make sure I could laugh those cowboy jokes. I had to make sure that I could hang. Thick skin, because you can't be thin-skinned.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Well, on a lighter note,

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  y'all are beautiful. I mean, just gorgeous. I want to talk a bit about aging gracefully, beautifully, elegantly, untouched, unpulled, unplugged, un- unfilled.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  That's the best analogy I've ever heard. I love that. Please put that in so I can copy that again. That needs to be on a T-shirt somewhere.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:15:44Speaker 00

  Don't see it a lot in the business, in our stages. How do you all think about it?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Well, I know one thing. When I first got to Hollywood, this was, I'm young, youthful. The man that was managing me wanted me to go and get my lips reduced. I said, what are you talking about? And if I'd been gullible, not my mother's child, I might have just said, oh, okay. I said, why? He said, well, you know, it will make them smaller. I said, why do I want them to be small? They look like my daddy's lips. Why do I want them to be smaller? This perception of beauty has to start within. Has to start within. When I took over A Different World, one of the first things I did was take everybody's fingernails off, took off their weave. I said, who are you really? Be able to be comfortable in your skin.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  God made you. You're beautiful. Accept the beauty of that, you know? Aging gracefully is the first thing is to be able to even admit your age. Like, I love my age. I love my age, too.

• 1:16:48Speaker 00

  The older I get, I'm just like, look at what I did.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Look at, yeah, look at that.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  60 too.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  Can you do it?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Hello, hello. We have friends that are sitting in the corner, you know, all retracted. I say, girl, you better go to the museum and go meet your next husband or go get a date or go to this new concert. You better get out. Go to church, honey. Go, you might keep learning. Get out here in the world. But I like the little lines in my face. I actually do. And I've had a lot of my friends, much younger than me, go in and get this done, that done. And I looked at them, maybe. My husband said, you touch your face and I swear. Grounds for divorce.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  He said, I like you. I love you the way you are. Don't you do anything.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  So it's about self-love and gracefully aging. And this is the problem is in our industry is so critical. You know, they'll take your picture in People Magazine or, I don't want to just give them a bad, okay. They'll take your picture in any of these magazines. But this is what she looked like at 25.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  And it's just like a horror. It's like a horror. It's like a horror movie. It's like, come on, y'all.

• 1:18:07Speaker 00

  They take the worst picture.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  The worst pictures. They put a picture of me one time about how badly I was dressed. And it wasn't even me. It wasn't even me. My son was furious. I said, it's okay. It's all right. But the industry is cruel. It is. It is. And this is why I love seeing shows like when I see Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren in a show together. At their age. Doing, it's fantastic to me. I love it. I love it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  What routines keep you fresh?

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  There's that daily practice of meditation.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  That's quiet, with oneself, right? And then you got to get up and move.

• 1:19:01Speaker 00

  You got to be quiet, and then you got to move.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

  Because the body is made and engineered for, designed for movement.

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then, you know, without getting boring, paying attention to what you ingest.

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  You know, what you, what you, and I like to explore new things, you know, go to new restaurants and do, but there are just, you know, certain foods that I know are agreeable.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  And some are less agreeable. Some are very beneficial. Everything that tastes good is not necessarily beneficial.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  No, it's not.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Get rid of young people as you get older. All the delicious stuff.

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  We had Kevin Hart on and we had a whole conversation about how you can't eat anything as you get older. It's like, oh, my God, there's lemon in that water? Ooh, mess me up.

• 1:19:57Speaker 00

  It's like you just, you know, you got, your body is telling you, okay, now, can't do that anymore.

• 1:20:02Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Can't do that anymore.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  And then you try things. Like I, I won't say, I'm not gonna name names. Okay, I wouldn't try this facial thing, some kind of electron. Child, I thought I was in the electric chair. I'm like, oh, no, no. No, I thought it was burning my face. I said, you gonna kill me. Then I did, I tried this peel one time, left me with scabs all over my face. I said, okay, I'm done.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  I'm done.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I'm good to go take these jeans and just, you know, just cocoa butter is natural, coconut butter is natural.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  Lotion.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Lotion. Vitamin E. And I find.

• 1:20:38Speaker 00

  I'm trying to tell my white friends about lotion. You know, I was like, everybody's like, you're so soft. I'm like, it's lotion, y'all. And you two need lotion.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Part of the showering process is lotion, right?

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  It goes with the whole killing this process is shower lotion. Sometimes it's lotion, shower lotion. That's how important lotion is.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Ah, well, you are doing it right. You are doing it right. And I know you guys have a hard out. And one of the things we like to do is a listener question. Because people, we're IMO, in my opinion. So this is a time where we can give an opinion to a viewer. So why don't we hear the listener question?

• 1:21:27Speaker 06

  I'm in my mid 40s and have been in the same career for about 15 years. However, I long ago realized that it isn't really working for me. I feel like I'm bored and I'm not that interested in the work. During the pandemic, I took some time to do online courses to explore other paths and found that I loved coding and technology. But at that time, I didn't think of actually switching careers. Now I'm curious to see what it might be like to pursue a different career path. But I keep feeling too old and far along to make a switch. And starting over in a different career as a total beginner is deeply intimidating to me. I also am worried about jeopardizing the stability that I've worked so hard to build over nearly two decades. I know you both have talked about pivoting,

• 1:22:10Speaker 06

  but can you talk specifically about what it means to switch things up in midlife and later in life? How do I balance responsibilities with risk in a healthy way? Any advice is much appreciated. And this is from Linda in her mid 40s in Chicago.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Linda, you're a baby.

• 1:22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. That's the first stop. I thought you were gonna say 70. It's like, oh, she's 40. Okay.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Well, you know what? Let me just say this first. Change is the nature of the universe. There's nothing in this universe that is stagnant, moving, constantly changing, rotating. Astral dust is penetrating us right this minute. We can perceive it all the time. But change is the nature of the universe. So it's exciting. If you find yourself wanting to kickball change to another style of dance or kickball change to whatever this career is, I think that's exciting. And, and don't be, don't be afraid to be the oldest one. My mom was in classical Greek class. She was 80 something when she went. How old was mommy when she went to?

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  She was not 80.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  How old was mommy?

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  She was not 80.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  How old was mommy?

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  You're ruining the story.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  I know. I'm sorry, but exaggeration is not gonna help. She went over to New Jersey. How old was mommy then?

• 1:23:30Speaker 03

  When she went to, okay, I think she was in her late 60s.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  60s going on 70.

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  She was in her late 60s.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Going on 70. So 40 is a baby. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  The, but the point is, when you were young, 70 was like 80. But when we were young, everybody who was 60 seemed like they were 80.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, but, yeah.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that was always inspiring to us. And mommy was still going to college, still wanting to learn, still pushing the envelope of something different, something new, or expanding her knowledge of whatever it was she's interested in. So this is the nature of the universe and the nature of man is inquiry and being curious. And that will bring change, which is a good thing.

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  What do I say, Craig? Stay curious. Be curious.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  I'm the one who pivots all the time, so I know what's going on.

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think, I think your point of view, you know, your inlook is gonna determine so much. And if you're approaching anything with so much doubt and fear, okay, that's what you're manifesting.

• 1:24:43Speaker 03

  You know, don't give up on the creative power of your own thought.

• 1:24:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:48Speaker 00

  Those are some snaps.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:24:53Speaker 03

  You know, yeah, don't, don't, don't give up on that. So the truth of the matter is, is that whatever your career is, right? You kind of created that, right?

• 1:25:07Speaker 03

  And you can create something else.

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  It's, it's your point of view.

• 1:25:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  So let's just eliminate the fear and the doubt and see what happens.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:25:19Speaker 00

  There you go. I mean, you're, this is a panel full of people who have had many pivots, you know? I mean, I've been a lawyer, the dean of students, you know, the head of a nonprofit, you know, the vice president. I could go on and on. I have had so many different careers and so many different hats. And every change has led to some really exponential growth. You know, and I, I would just keep that in mind. Real growth comes from change. And you have to be a bit humble and you have to be okay not knowing. And you have to be okay making mistakes, you know?

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  Even something is, I've started playing tennis in my adult life. And it takes a lot of time to get a backhand and to get a this. And I just tell my pros, like, my God, why can't I do this? But I'm used to doing things well. And I think taking up different sports has allowed me to feel humble that, oh, I don't know how to do this and I'm not supposed to. So let me just be patient. And it takes a lot of hours to learn something new. So I would just, you know, urge our listener to be patient. You know, not only to have a good attitude and to manifest something powerful, but then you have to be patient with yourself in the process. You're not gonna go to the next thing and run it, you know?

• 1:26:46Speaker 00

  You gotta learn it. You gotta fail at it. You gotta grow from it, you know? And if she's willing to do that, sky's the limit.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Sky's the limit.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  And I think the only thing I add, I'll add, because you three have really summed it up. I want to take a page from your parents. Because at a time when people weren't even using the term lifetime learners, they were lifetime learners. They were ahead of their time. And I've, I've found as I've gotten older, and especially doing this podcast, I mean, it's, I have a blast sitting here messing around with my sister. But learning something brand new at this age has been glorious. And it's hard. It's been hard, but it's been glorious. I was so happy you all were here. This was so fun.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  Thanks for the best. Thanks for inviting us. We could talk all for hours. There's so much more.

• 1:27:44Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:27:45Speaker 00

  But thank you for, for being here, for taking the time. Thank you.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  And being so open and refreshing and.

• 1:27:53Speaker 00

  Love you both deeply, really deeply.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  We love you.

• 1:27:57Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:27:59Speaker 00

  You too, Craig.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yes, Craig.

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  See, I get to do a lot of fun stuff hanging out with this one, so.

• 1:28:06Speaker 00

  Well, good luck on all things to come. Anything exciting, particularly for both of you all, that you want to make sure we know about? We got the Different World reboot and 800 other things that you're doing.

• 1:28:20Speaker 03

  Purpose is going to Los Angeles and then to London.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  Awesome.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Isn't that exciting?

• 1:28:25Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Fell in love with Carrie Young through that.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Isn't she wonderful?

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  It's just like, what a little dynamo.

• 1:28:32Speaker 03

  She's singular.

• 1:28:33Speaker 00

  Yes, she is singular. Congratulations on everything you all have done and what you will continue to do. I love you both.

• 1:28:42Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:29:07Speaker 07

  I'm Emma Greed, host of Aspire with Emma Greed, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Greed, available wherever you get your podcasts.