Living Unapologetically with Sharon Stone

Sharon Stone joins Michelle and Craig for an honest, and wide-ranging conversation. The three sit down to talk about Sharon’s childhood, her climb into Hollywood, the power of aging publicly, and the freedom that comes from genuinely not caring what anyone thinks anymore. In this episode: Dr. Kathleen Jordan, Chief Medical Officer, of Midi Health. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If men got pregnant, you could get an abortion from a vending machine.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  You did that without an epidural.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Would be when you got the bonus.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  There you go. Right.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  Hey, what's that over there?

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, what do you?

• 0:18Speaker 02

  What's that over there?

• 0:19Speaker 01

  What?

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Sharon, how did you end up in New York?

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Craig's like, I've had it with this conversation. Moving on, moving on.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  How you doing?

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I'm doing great. I feel good. I mean, you know, I don't have any complaints right now, today.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  That's good to hear.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  How about you? How's your health?

• 0:52Speaker 02

  My health is good.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Are you working out like you're supposed to be?

• 0:55Speaker 02

  I'm working out and getting my walks in and getting my stretching in.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  There we go. Some stretching going on. I hope everybody else here is stretching. We've been having those conversations.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Scolded into the stretching and then, you know, of course, coaching the kids hoops. So that gives me a lot of exercise this time of year.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good. That's good. And you still hanging tough? You're staying at an Airbnb again this time?

• 1:24Speaker 02

  I am. I'm staying at a really nice Airbnb. And what's actually nice about it is that it's not the biggest one. It's very comfortable.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  I always worry about you rambling around in some big house by yourself.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  I know you do. I know you do. And Leslie and Elena are busy, so they, you know, usually they would come, hang out with me for a week.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  As Malia says, wherever I'm staying, she comes and stays there because she's like, I'm here for the amenities.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  It's much nicer than my apartment.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  She's like, I'm just, she'll come, you know? We stay at a friend's, some friend's houses. They have a beautiful home. And of course, she knows them. And I come home, she's like in the bath. She's taken a bubble bath. She's washed her hair.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Doing laundry.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  The water pressure here is just so much better. She just sort of camps out to use the amenities.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the places are great. And, you know, and we're gonna be using them all summer long because, you know, we're doing these trips with the basketball team.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you've got one coming up.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we love to get Airbnbs when we're on the road because you never know what the game schedules are gonna be. So you want to be able to go somewhere, be able to shower and have the whole team be there rather than your hotel room where, you know, the fight between the boys on who gets to take the shower first and who uses up all the towels. You can, you alleviate that by staying at an Airbnb. So we're looking forward to it.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  I'm glad you're doing okay. I am, we are always excited about our guests.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  We are, we are.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  We really are.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  But this is the level.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  But we, you know, this, let me just say, the privilege that we have in being able to take through IMO some really quality time and meet people and engage with a range of people that we've either met casually or have not met at all to really spend some time. And our guest today, Sharon Stone, the icon, is here. And we've sort of met in passing, but it's just, I have met.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just, it's just a blessing to be able to meet people who are smart, engaged, philanthropic, all of that good stuff. And that's what we're doing with our guest today, Sharon Stone.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  And that's why, that's why we decided to do this. Because we get to talk to some really interesting people as if they're at our house.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Like when we were younger and we'd have company and they'd sit around the kitchen table and we'd talk for hours and how we used to sabotage them leaving. Yeah, you guys should know, we would have company and Mish and I would hear them talking about leaving. And then we'd go in and ask for a snack or do something. And mom would fix food and the guests would end up staying for another hour.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  We had another hour, right?

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  We won't hijack Sharon today, but why don't you, Craig, do the proper introduction?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  I will, I will. Sharon Stone is an internationally recognized actress, artist, producer, humanitarian, and New York Times bestselling author of her recent book, The Beauty of Living Twice.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Beautiful memoir.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Her film and television credits include Basic Instinct and Casino, for which she won a Golden Globe for Best Actress in 1996 and an Academy Award nomination for her leading role opposite Robert De Niro in Martin Scorsese's crime drama. So without further ado, please welcome Sharon Stone.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Welcome to our table.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  So nice to be here.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  I am so glad you're here.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Thank you. Scoot on in.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Thank you. Hello. Awesome.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  You're looking great.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Look who's talking.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. See how, you know, we do into our mature years, you know?

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Are we supposed to be mature now?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  I, I'm just gonna claim it, you know? It's like, this is the thing I've been talking, I'm claiming my wisdom. I'm mature. I'm wise. I know what I'm doing.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Wisdom is really exciting.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  It is so exciting.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  And it's so, there's, is this really great mix of no tolerance and unbelievable tolerance.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Right, where you're like, you just run with that. Just go.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  You know, one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why I love your memoir, The Beauty of Living Twice, is that you really, you know, you are incredibly vulnerable and honest and open about all aspects of your life. And you do it in such a beautiful way. You are really, really a beautiful storyteller and writer. It was a joy to get to know you better through your memoir. And if anybody who hasn't picked it up because it's been out for a while, I say do it because it's not just an insight into Sharon Stone, but it's also a beautiful journey of forgiveness and love and family and, and, and strength and overcoming.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  But it was fun to hear about your, not fun, it was interesting to hear about your childhood, you know, growing up. I love the way you said that you guys, there were kitchen sink Irish and lace curtain Irish folks. And you guys were kitchen sink Irish people. Can you, can you talk about that?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Well, they say there's kitchen sink and lace curtain. And lace curtain has lots of bathrooms. And kitchen sink has one bathroom and lots of kids.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Which means if the bathroom is in play, you pee in the kitchen sink, right? Right? And, you know, that was the, that's it. When you've got, you know, four kids and, and a lot of action and everybody's friends over and you can't get in the bathroom, that's where it's at. Or you pee in the yard. That's the way it is. You know, and, you know, when my kids were little and, and I have three boys and, and I was potty training and I'd be like, go pee in the bushes. They were like, you're letting your kids just pee outside.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  It's like I grew up that way.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yes, leave me alone.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  And the boys loved it, I'm sure.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Boys love that kind of stuff. Yeah. Give me the bush. Mom said I could pee in the bushes.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  It's like, woo, I'm living life, living large.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  But you grew up in pencil.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  But in Beverly Hills, they think you're nuts, like some kind of wild animal.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Although, you know, you grew up in Pennsylvania, the youngest of four?

• 8:14Speaker 00

  No.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  You were in the middle.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  I was, my brother was, I had a brother seven years older, a brother seven years younger, and a sister three years younger. So I was like, in a way, the oldest of the second batch.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  That's right. Okay.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Can you talk about going to school and starting in second grade? Is that how that happened?

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  That, at that, see, that is fascinating to me because.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Thanks, Craig.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  I mean, clearly you're smart, but.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Brilliant.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  To be in school at a young age, at that young age with older kids, what was that like?

• 8:54Speaker 00

  You know, it was my parent, I was sort of a precocious kid, obviously. And my parents didn't quite know what to make of me. So they took me to the courthouse for a test. And then they decided to start me at second grade when I was five.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  What did precocious look like? What were you doing?

• 9:11Speaker 00

  I was walking, talking, potty trained at 10 months. Ripped my own diaper off and started telling my mother what to do. Someone bring me a diaper. Right? Mother, it's time. Oh.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Someone's in the bathroom. I need to use the sink.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yes, and correcting my mother's English and, you know, making my mother like, I would say, mother. You know, because that Pennsylvania, you know, Pennsylvania people kind of talk like that. You know, going down to G Jet. You went down by the river, got shot down by the river. Did you get something to eat? Eat something? And I said, it's something.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Something.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Mother, it's something. So I was always, I was in endless trouble for my opinions and ideas. Not unlike today.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  You've been consistent.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Oh, Christ. My dad was getting called into the school. Sharon was not staying with the class. She's not listening. She's rushing ahead. She's getting other children to do what she wants them to do. My dad was like, is this true, Sharon? He'd be like, yes, sir. He'd be like, good. And don't tell her not to do it anymore.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Or you'll, there'll be hell to pay. And then he'd pick me up and take me out for ice cream. He was the endless encourager of my acting out.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  That's so cool. Were you unique among your brothers and sisters too?

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Well.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Or did this run in the family?

• 10:40Speaker 00

  But they were more compliant. And it wasn't until about, I think it was about eight years ago or nine years ago. I finally had an argument with my sister and said, I want you to take an IQ test online. It's enough of this.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  You said this to your sister?

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, this is not, this is, it's an impossibility that it's not all of us.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  That is not genetic, yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Take an IQ test online. And she took an IQ test and ended up coming out like at 147 or something. And I'm like, dude, go online, take some courses. And she started taking some online courses from Harvard and stuff. Cause I was like, it's, I'm, I'm done carrying this, like some kind of.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm not by myself. I'm not odd. You're all odd.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  We're all odd. It's, it's not an isolated incident. Come on.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  This summer, the family and I took a trip to Bryan, Texas for our son's basketball tournament. We love barbecue and had a chance to sample some of the local spots and realized how we missed finding places the locals frequent. Trips like that always make me think about how much of the world I still want to see. Of course, the only problem with having a long travel wish list is eventually somebody has to pay for it. Which got me thinking, if you're heading out on your own adventure or a big concert, game, or festival is bringing travelers to your town, you can list your space on Airbnb while you're away. Instead of letting your place sit empty, you could put it to work, earn some extra income,

• 12:34Speaker 02

  and give someone a home base to explore your city. They can discover the neighborhoods, local spots, and experiences that make your community special while you put that extra income toward your next adventure. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. Mish, thinking back to when you picked up your first home, what was the biggest priority for you? For me, I was just laser focused on location. I needed to make sure I was central and close to family.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the same thing for us as well. I think when Barack and I bought our first home, we really only looked in one neighborhood. And that was Hyde Park on the south side of Chicago. It was down the street from where you and Janice and the kids lived. And that met the world. So we didn't even look in neighborhoods that weren't close to family. Where the girls would go to school, where we were working. So for us, location was, was key.

• 13:48Speaker 02

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• 14:31Speaker 02

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• 16:41Speaker 01

  Now, which, where did it come from? Your, your mother, your father? Because I love you, you said that your parents were madly in love with each other.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  But they just didn't know how to show that love in the same way to you guys as kids.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Cause my mom was so violently abused. She came from a hideously abusive, they took her out of her home. When she was nine, because she was bleeding through the back of her gym costume. And the gym teacher made her take down her shirt. And she was so cut up on her back that they called social services. And her father would, when he was not able to, she wouldn't succumb to the abuse. He would take her in the yard and beat her with these bramble berry bush branches, which would cut her back severely.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  And so when she, so when they saw it and she crumbled, they pulled her out of the house. And it was, of course, the depression era. So their idea of a great get out for her was to put her in another family's home and allow her to be their maid, laundress, shopper, cleaner, everything, at nine. And by 12, she was running the father's dental office as well. And I never felt like it was really clean, even as awful as it was. I felt like some kind of abuse continued.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  By the time she was 16, she was pregnant with my dad, married.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  And they were married for 60 years. And they really had not only a love affair, but like a hot romance. The whole time. It was kind of, no, it was a very high bar to see, to come home from school and they would be necking on the sofa. I mean, you know, and it was hard to squeeze in between them.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It's like, excuse me, mother.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, this hot romance. And it was probably because they had a teen romance.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  That just continued.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  That always had an element of teen romance involved. And because my dad came from extraordinary wealth. And we find out much later in life, after they're gone, he came from royalty. My dad came from a long line of French royalty. His, ultimately, his lineage went back to the founding king and queen of France. And all the prince and princesses of Burgundy. And he was Joseph William Stone III. All these things we didn't really know.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Did he know?

• 19:41Speaker 00

  He did not know because when he was four, his family were some of the original oil drillers in Oil City, Pennsylvania. And the oil well blew like the explosion in Giant.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Killed everybody on the site when he was four.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  And because money didn't go to women, even though the money was his mom's.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  That was Giant. That was the story. That was the movie.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Same thing.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  It went to his 18-year-old cousin, who of course gambled and drank it away at the track instantly. And then his mother was destitute, took his sister and became a nurse at an insane asylum. And he and his little brother, like four and three years old, went and lived in people's barn stalls. And so my dad, to the manor born, ended up becoming this farm laborer and worked and then bought back the original family home, now somewhat in ruins, and moved into it. And so my grandmother and aunt moved back in there.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  And then on weekends and holidays and summers, I lived with them.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love the way you talk about them, like they made you feel special.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Yes, and they were so eccentric.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Because they were this sort of fallen.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Royalty.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Royalty, who were, of course, thought they were fantastic and thought everybody else.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Gray gardens like, were they?

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Not quite as nuts, but not, not, not nuts.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  You know, my aunt was a painter and she painted murals on the walls.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  And at the same time, my great-grandfather was sitting in the corner with a Maxwell House coffee can as a spittoon.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  It's like there was art and there was saliva.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  So you talked about feeling at somewhere in this early age that you were dropped into the wrong place, that you should have been in an urban environment.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  I just didn't understand.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, talk about that because being that young and understanding that without seeing it, how did you know that you were destined for a different way?

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Just, I don't know quite how to explain the feeling that nothing ever felt familiar. Like, other people seemed to feel comfortable and at ease. And things to me felt super foreign. Like, why? Why are you doing that? Why do you think that's okay? Why are you accepting that as, as a fact? Why do you believe that just because someone says that's how it is, that it is how it is? Like, I used to look at the family pictures and think, I don't seem like everybody in this picture.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  Like, it just seemed like, it doesn't, you're saying that, but I don't believe that. I would disagree with my teacher. I would come in with research to say, this is really not true. Or something would be marked on my test as incorrect. And I would bring in research and say.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Who does, who does she sound like?

• 23:18Speaker 00

  I don't think you're right. Did you do that?

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just interesting hearing you talk. Now, I never got tested. I don't think I have, you know, I'm not Mensa or anything like that. No, absolutely, probably not, but who cares?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  She's not.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  It's like, Craig's like, clearly.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Are you my brother?

• 23:41Speaker 00

  You must be my brother.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  But one thing, when I hear you talk, it's like this just feeling of knowing a thing about yourself. I'd like to talk to young people who may have the same feeling about themselves.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Right. And I think that women globally face this.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  When you know, and you know you know.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  And then people tell you, I'm not interested in what you know.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  So talk about when, when you decided to get out of there and start your own life.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I was probably as tall as the table, but I didn't pull it off till I was, till I was about 15.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  It's like, when I can drive, then feed myself, I'm out of here.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  I'm weaving now.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  I'm weaving.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  But when I was 15, I started to college. And I realized they had summer programs. Which meant I could never have to come home again.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  And you were like, sign me up.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  I'm like, I'll be studying now. I am so academic, you can't even believe it. I'm the most academic person you've ever met. Watch this.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Well, you talk quite eloquently and, you know, sadly about that, that code of silence and not talking about things and the damage that it causes. I mean, you even talked about, you know, how growing up, our generation of mothers and grandmothers didn't even prepare us for, for life, for sexual health.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Is that boy bothering you? Is that man bothering you? Get over here. That was the whole extent of the conversation.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when you went to college, finally had a boyfriend, a relationship, you talk about how you, you got pregnant, had to have an abortion because you didn't even.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  I didn't know I was pregnant.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Right, right. Can you talk about more about that?

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Well, imagine, you're 17, you're in college. My boyfriend was 23, was an engineer on the railroad, an electrician on the railroad, which was, in our town, a very tony job, right? It was a super high-paying job. I mean, he had a fancy car, a fancy motorcycle, his own place, a regular employment. And being an electrician on the railroad was like top drawer, right? But he didn't have any knowledge or information that I should have some kind of birth control.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  And I had no, like, when I tell you I could have been the girl who gave birth in the bathroom stall.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  I don't mean to laugh, but.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  No, I laugh. I laugh.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Because when I tell you, no one.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Because it was him who noticed that you were, you know, putting on a little.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Weight.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Putting on a little weight.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  My parents thought I was the freshman 15.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Like, no clue. And when I tell you, like, no one told me, like, this is how you have your period. This is what a tampon, look, they didn't test tampons on human blood until 2026.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Wasn't that, that's crazy.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  They tested female hormones on men because it was more consistent. We didn't do medical research on women OBGYN really until the 2000s. And now we don't want to give women care, OBGYN care, and we want to prosecute women for having a miscarriage? What kind of arcane bullshit is this? If men be pregnant, you could get an abortion from a vending machine.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  There would be the birth Olympics, you know. There were, they, men would film themselves going into labor and honoring their pain and, you know, it would be, there would be trophies given, you know. Well done dude, Bob, you really, you know, you did that without an epidural.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Would be the, when you got the bonus.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  There you go, right.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Hey, what's that over there?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, what do you?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  What's that over there?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  What?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Sharon, how did you end up in New York?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Craig's like, I've had it with this conversation.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Moving on, moving on.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  This is why we don't get help, you know? They're like, well, I'm bored with this conversation. Let's talk about sports.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Moving on.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  I didn't, I didn't switch to sports.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Not yet. I was like, we were just getting started, weren't we Sharon?

• 28:52Speaker 00

  That's right, ma'am.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Well, I went to New York on this other happy subject when my brother went to prison, Craig.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  I went to New York because my brother went to Attica in the late 70s. Turned to the 80s, where the cocaine business started. They started trafficking cocaine into America. And they were trying to get my brother into that business.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  How did he even wind up being connected with people in the?

• 29:33Speaker 00

  This is the part I didn't know and have really tried to not know too much.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Cause my brother was in the service when he was very young, 18. He was in the air force and he was in a crew chief, a jet mechanic. And it was Vietnam.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Right? Then he had a car, his car up on a hydraulic at the base. He jumped out of the back of his car and ripped off his finger. It was caught in the trunk latch on his ring and he ripped off his finger. And he ended up in an amputee ward with the people who had really bad amputations. And these guys were heavily into drugs.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  They were all sitting out.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Medicating.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Smoking weed on the porch of this hospital. And then more drugs were coming in. I don't know, but I think that's where it might have started.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  Because ultimately, when he started to then get into this cocaine business, I told my boyfriend, if you get into this business, you're not going to be getting into me. It's going to be over. There will be no me involved in this. And he did not get into it. But my brother got very into cocaine. And he was transporting cocaine. My brother was an expert golfer and he was going around to golf courses as posing as a golf pro. And collecting golf clubs that had drugs in bags and clubs and all this stuff.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  It was very deep and doing all kinds of things.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  And it caused, it puts you guys in danger.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Well, eventually he was arrested with 15 kilos of cocaine in a hotel room. And the FBI arrested him the day before Christmas on television. And it was a very big deal. He was over the state line into New York because he had a house in a place called Finley Lake, New York. And it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare for our family.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  What did that do to your dad, this upstanding, no nonsense?

• 31:49Speaker 00

  My dad stayed super steady, steady Eddie. And it was incredibly dangerous.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Like at a level because people were threatening my brother from a couple of different sides. Because apparently the two sides of where the drugs were coming from and going to were so big. That the people who were prosecuting him wanted to break my brother to say one side or the other. And either side would have had him or our family wiped out. To the point where my dad and my younger brother were at home and people in full black Kevlar and ski masks came over our front yard with automatic weapons.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  At one point. And my brother and my dad punched out the front of their gun cabinet and started shooting out the kitchen window.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  At whoever these people were, that no one ever came to know who they were.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And the police didn't get involved and nobody came?

• 32:55Speaker 00

  No one came. My dad and my brother were shooting the shotgun out the kitchen window at these unidentified, just fully rigged out people, which ended that. But my brother ended up being tried, getting 15 to life and being sent to Attica.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  And my mother was like, that's it. You always wanted to go, you can go.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  It's okay, you can go.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  You, you were fleeing.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  And she's, I, she said, she had seen Merv Griffin on having Eileen Ford as the guest. And she said, we're gonna go. And we didn't know where to go. We were such country bumpkins. We went and we were looking in the phone book. Where do you go walking the streets?

• 33:47Speaker 01

  So becoming a model, that wasn't in your sights?

• 33:52Speaker 00

  Not at all.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Not even a little bit. But my mom thought it's something you could do. Cause I wanted to be a director or an actress.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Had you finished college by then? How old were you?

• 34:05Speaker 00

  No, and my teachers, particularly my writing teacher was like, I don't want to sign this. You're going to be an amazing writer. You shouldn't quit. You should not quit. I am really hard pressed to sign this. And I didn't want to tell him why. I was really trying, we were all trying to sort of keep a lid on it.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. I mean, it's, it's literally, you wake up dripping in sweat in the middle of the night, unless the room is at a certain temperature. And even when it is, you know, that, that, that's a part of the perimenopausal, menopausal process. That was probably the first sign for me, that what's going on here? You know, why am I waking up with my sheets soaked? And, you know, and, and what do I need to do to prevent that?

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• 39:47Speaker 01

  So what did that, what does that feel like? As a, as a kid, you know, you're, you're walking away. First of all, you're smart enough to know all of this.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  I was being threatened too.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  You're aware, but your whole life is turned upside down. You know, your, your dreams of who you could be, you know, where you were headed with writing and art and all those things. You know, you, you had to sort of walk away from that and start doing a career, you know, that was not your choosing. Did you, what, did you feel resentful? Were you afraid? Were you?

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Well, I was, I went with $50.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  I had $50 and a suitcase.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  You know, I lived in a fourth or fifth floor walk-up on Elizabeth and Houston, which then had a Texaco station across the street. You know, it was, we're talking extreme poverty.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  No, I was so excited.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  And so

• 41:00Speaker 00

  thrilled and I was just gonna make it. Whatever, I was just gonna make it. I mean, I bought roller skates at a used thrift store because I couldn't afford cabs or subways. And I roller skated top to bottom of New York so that I could

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Get to your bookings faster.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  And I hit every phone booth for change that people would leave and collected leftover dimes, nickels, and quarters. Every phone booth, I hit every phone booth to collect change and found a lot of change. And sometimes I went with my roommate and I would distract the,

• 41:50Speaker 00

  I'm embarrassed about it now, but I would distract the cashier while my roommate stole food to eat. I'm ashamed.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Don't be ashamed.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Please don't be ashamed.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  But I did, I distracted the cashier.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  You were surviving.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  So that we could steal food to eat.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  You were surviving.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  You were surviving. I mean, my gosh, I mean, but this is

• 42:14Speaker 00

  It's a big part of why I give back.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  I want to give back way more than they took.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Because I'm embarrassed and ashamed that I stole, that I did. I stole to eat.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Well, and it's also, that's a hard thing, you know, because that was a

• 42:29Speaker 02

  No, that's

• 42:30Speaker 00

  And it's a lot to say in front of you.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Because I admire you so much.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, no, Sharon. I mean, I am, I am, we are both on this journey of survival, sort of getting

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  where you, you were the context.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  And what you had to do to just keep it going. Because you also came to New York with a pretty fricking amazing work ethic. You know, I mean, that was always, that was always

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  what I loved to hear is like your dad had you out selling pots and pans door to door when you were a little kid.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Christmas cards.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Everybody always had to work.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Mowing lawns, washing cars.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  So you, you go to New York, young, brilliant, and having that hustle mentality, understanding that I've got to survive, I got to make it. You know, you're leaving a threat to your life back. You know, you couldn't go home.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  No.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  You know, your parents didn't want you to go home. And here you are, a kid in New York, starting out in the modeling career. You know, it's like, yeah, this is, this is how people get desperate.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  And how bad things happen to good people.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  It happens every day. You know, it happens to people of all races and all backgrounds. And, and people, I think it's important for you to tell the story of who you had to be.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  And when I work with girls.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  There isn't shame in it, you know? And again, you, you were lucky enough that you were pretty.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  I was well so lucky.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  And that you were white.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  So lucky.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  You know?

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Because my first job, I got $5,000.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  You want to talk about that? And what did, what did, what did that feel like? You go from

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  getting change out of the phone booth to

• 44:27Speaker 00

  And I started, I got $5,000 a day.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  I got signed by Eileen Ford into what's called special bookings, which was what became supermodels.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  What Cindy and Cindy Crawford and Naomi and all those girls were the next generation and they were supermodels. Oh, my God, and I started making $5,000 a day.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  And that's how you wound up going to Europe?

• 44:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And were you able to

• 44:56Speaker 00

  I worked.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  develop a career out there?

• 44:59Speaker 00

  I developed a career and an Italian boyfriend and

• 45:03Speaker 01

  That's always good.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  That's fun.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  That was really fun.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  That's a good payoff.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. He's still my dearest friend.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  That's nice. So when did you go out to Hollywood? And, or when did you get into movies? And how did all of that take place?

• 45:19Speaker 00

  Well, I would go to these open castings on my roller skates.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Were you still, were you in New York?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  You were in New York.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  And I met an extra casting guy named Ricardo Bertoni. And he's the guy who discovered Sly.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  He had read Rocky. And he was like, this is the greatest script. This guy has got to get this movie made. He really believed in Sly. And he was banging around trying to get Rocky made, right? And he's like, I know this guy, this Sylvester Stallone, you know? And he's like, you too are gonna make it, you know?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  And he called me.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  And said, there was a casting for extras for this Woody Allen movie. And I should skate over. That, I can't say it was Julia Taylor was casting this thing. They come over to me and, and they say, look, you're not gonna make with us what you'd make modeling. But Woody and Gordon think that you really have it. They think you have what it takes to make it in film. And they'd like to offer you a couple more weeks on the film, but you won't make the same. They wanna know if you're interested. You bet, you bet I am. They're like, they're gonna expand your part if you wanna stay. I'm like, I wanna stay. So they start expanding the part.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  And then I have this scene where I'm on the train and they want me to blow them a kiss. And so I do this thing and I kiss against the window and I do the thing. And Woody comes up to the window and he goes, no, I want you to do it like you're really kissing me.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  And I'm like-

• 47:07Speaker 01

  That, that line is not aging well.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  It didn't, it didn't. But at the time, I was like, okay.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Sure. Right? And so that stayed in the movie. And then I got to keep staying and I did two more movies with Woody.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  How were you feeling like you were developing as a, as a young woman?

• 47:29Speaker 00

  And I wasn't getting them. I was always like one of two or three, but not the winner.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  And finally, I knew this guy that was sort of in our friend group. But he was the guy that never wanted to pay the bill. He was like the one where the bill would come and he'd be like, my part is $4.32.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we all know that guy.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  You know that guy, right? And one day, he said to me, I know the acting teacher you should go to. I said, oh, oh, do you? And he said, let me tell you this. If he doesn't change your life, I will pay for your acting lessons. And I was like, you, you will pay my acting lessons?

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the guy who doesn't-

• 48:13Speaker 00

  I will pay. I'm like, you don't pay your own lunch. You'll pay my acting lessons? He goes, I will, I'll pay for them. I'm like, I want it in writing. He's like, I will, I'll pay. I'm like, I'll go. And I went to this guy. And he, and I took some private lessons from him. And I did the class. And then finally, one day, he was like, you graduated. There's no more for you. And I was like, but I'm not good and I didn't get it. I don't want you to overwork it.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Because you were an overworker, yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  I'm sure, like, you can't relate to this, but the extra trying, the working too hard, the studying too much for a test.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  It doesn't ring any bells.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  No, these guys here are, they are sick of my preparation.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  You see all these cards.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Of what you have to have done so I feel ready.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  That you never even use.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Well, oh, no, I use everything.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  But they don't see you using it, so it doesn't make sense.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  So I sit into this scene and I'm playing the Jack Lemmon part. And I sit into this scene.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  And suddenly, I'm seeing this person across the table in the scene like,

• 49:41Speaker 00

  and this person talks and I'm like, I don't think so. And suddenly, it's like I'm moving them around on a chessboard. Like I'm moving them through this labyrinth to where I want them to go. And it's almost effortless in this very weird way, right? I'm doing this scene.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  And we finish the scene and the room is like you could hear a pin drop. And I look at my teacher. And he's like this.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  And he looks around at the class like this.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  And he looks at me and he goes, what have we learned?

• 50:25Speaker 00

  And they said that I am enough.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  And he looks around and he goes, well,

• 50:35Speaker 00

  you've graduated. Class dismissed. Two weeks later, I got Basic Instinct.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  What did that feel like for you, that process of getting to that point of I'm enough? And what work were you doing to unpack? What did you unpack in that process?

• 50:55Speaker 00

  Being assigned the female role.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  I was done jumping through hoops, proving my value, proving my worth.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  No, that, that's absolutely fascinating. And as somebody outside of Hollywood, like most of our listeners are, you get to that point where you're like, I'm not needy anymore. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing my thing. I feel good. I have the power. The sort of Total Recall, Basic Instinct, Casino.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden, crickets.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Well, I thought about this and I was given a lot of time to think about it. Like, how come crickets?

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  How come crickets?

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  How come you could be so good in one of the better movies of ever?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Ever, yeah, of all time.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Where's your next possibly Oscar contender part? Why, where did you, why not?

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  I'm afraid I do not have the answers. I do not have the answers to, to that. But I do understand that I did something that wasn't done before and hasn't been done again. That I went into the boys' club and changed the dynamic. Bob De Niro said to me specifically, look, my part Sharon is a reactive character. Everything about my character depends on you.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  I must know that you are going to give it to me if we hire you. Because if you don't, I am fucked and the movie's fucked.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  You have to promise me. And I said, of course. But you have to understand that if I did it to you in the audition-

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Wait, hold on, hold on. Are you telling me this is Casino?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  I'm telling the listeners.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Yes, this is Casino. And if I didn't do it, I said, if I did it in the audition, you wouldn't like me. And you wouldn't hire me. And my behavior would seem so outrageous that you might think I'm crazy. I'm afraid to do it in the audition process.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  That's, that's crazy.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  I just don't know-

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Who you are.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  What line to walk in the audition process.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  And he said, okay, I can see that. And he said, okay, so there's one more step. You have to come in, you have to get approved by Frank, by the guy, the real guy. The guy he was playing. It was contractually obligated-

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  That the guy, the real husband, had to approve who played my character. And I said, I can do that. And he said, you really gotta do it. And I said, you can really count on me. And so they brought him to California into a very, very small suite.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  And the part that I was brought into had a very small L-shaped sofa. And he was sitting in the small part of the L, this man.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  And De Niro and Scorsese were standing in the corner beyond him when I entered the room. And I came as the character. Completely as the character. I came in an extremely inappropriate dress with my hair in a ponytail up here in a big bow

• 54:51Speaker 00

  with a dress that had a, like, like a almost flower thing on the bust.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  It's like, see me?

• 55:01Speaker 00

  Yes, and really fitted sundress. Like just a full-on hustler, as a hustler.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  And I opened the door and didn't really come in. I stood at the door like,

• 55:17Speaker 00

  I'm here, you're lucky to see me, right? And I waited for the man to ask me to come in, not them. And he was sitting on the couch with his legs spread very far apart as those kind of men do, right? Where they sit like that, like big. And he took a pack of cigarettes out from his inside pocket and was hitting them on his hand. And I walked over and said, you got one for me? And he went, yeah. And he took one out of his pocket and handed it to me. And I leaned over and put my hands on his thighs like this. And leaned in and said, light me up, put it in my mouth and said, light me up.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Like that. And leaned into his face. And he lit my cigarette. And I saw Bob and Marty look at each other like- What? Who is she? Who is this?

• 56:15Speaker 01

  It's like, where's Sharon?

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Wait, what's going on? Like, and then I took only one hand off his leg, left the other one on his thigh, and turned around and sat down next to him. And kept my hand on his thigh. And I was like, the hustle is on.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Right, really?

• 56:32Speaker 00

  I am.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I'm here to get what I need.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  I am the hustler that married him.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  And I am going to hustle him till he marries me into this part. And I sat down and had a smoke with him. And then told him how terrific it was to meet him and got up and left and never spoke to Bob or Marty.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, yes.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Like, they weren't even there. Like, they weren't even there.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Oh, man, this is great.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  We just gotta give, give even the description of that audition, it's just like, damn, girl.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  I was like, you wanna know if I can play the part?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  It's like, take that.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  I am the part.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  I am fucking enough.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  I came in to hustle you and pick you up. I did not come in to get the part. I came in to hustle you for a cigarette and an afternoon.

• 57:36Speaker 02

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• 1:03:10Speaker 04

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• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  So you won the award in that audition.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think that when...

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  I think I know what the outcome will be at the end of this Oscar season.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  I mean, they... I think they were a little bit like, that I, when I just came, continually came unfurled on set, I think they were all kind of... There were days when I saw Bob talking to Marty going, "Did you see that?"

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  And Marty would go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  It's happening. You wanna be like, now do you have something to play off of?

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  Well, you know, he's the greatest living actor. There was no...

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Well, and you were...

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  It's all the only person...

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  But you were also keeping, you were going toe to toe.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  Well, when I met my acting teacher and he said, "What is it you really wanna do?" I said, "I wanna be able to sit down opposite Robert De Niro and hold my own." That was it. That was my dream. That was my goal. I never dreamed it would be in a Scorsese movie. But, you know, Bob's the greatest actor alive. That was it. I mean, it was my dream. And the fact that I did it, I think, again, a woman?

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  I think that's outside of the code.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  And do you think you were punished for that?

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  You know.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  And that's my word, so.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  You know, there is no punishment that could take away the fact that I got to work with the greatest living actor, with the greatest living director in one of the greatest screenplays by Nick Pileggi. Because you could say and do whatever you want. I've already died once. It doesn't matter. It's going to be there long beyond us. So it doesn't really matter. Because it is. It just is.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Well said. Well said.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  People will say to me, you know, you need to do this because people don't take you seriously. And I think, you know what? What do you need from me to be taken seriously? The problem is you, not my seriousness. I'm as serious as it can get. Take it or don't take it. I don't really, do I care? No. Do you want to punish me, like me, love me, hate me, talk about me, don't like me? Honestly, you may be find this relatable. It's not about me.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  There's that wisdom that you started out with.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  It's just not about me.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  There's that wisdom.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  It's about the fact that I did something that you hadn't seen a woman do before, more than once.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  And it threw you for a loop.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  It's throwing you. You're just not used to it.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Now, talking about, you know, we talk about our parents all the time. We talk about parenting all the time. How did becoming a parent change the way you related to your career?

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  I'm such a lucky mommy. Well, I always wanted to adopt kids. I remember 14, realizing I wanted to adopt kids and starting to research how. And I have three boys. Two of them are biological brothers, a year apart. When you adopt children, you have to be prepared that there's always going to be something. And it is going to be the greatest thing that ever happened to you if you dig in and do it. Whatever it takes, the therapy, the whatever that you go through as a family

• 1:07:06Speaker 00

  is going to be the most growth, wisdom, freedom, liberation. Developing as a parent is so expansive. Because truly, we don't know anything about parenting when we have kids. And I've been able to say to my kids, look, I've never been a parent before. I don't know what this.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  I'm just trying some stuff on.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. This right here, I never even heard of this before.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  So your recovery process from your stroke, you know, because we are running out of time, the learning that you talk about from that process is beautiful. You know, your relationship to Buddhism, your embracing of understanding death.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  You know, it's such a good question. While I was able to get my mom a lot of therapy and different people to talk to, she died with her shame intact. And because of that, and because she and my sister had, at one point, really encouraged me to write my book and said, oh, when you write it, we'll all go on Oprah together and we'll all talk about it. And then when I wrote it, they were like, we can't believe you did that. Right? How could you do that? Because the idea of it and then the actuality of it.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Are two very different things.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Very different things.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Especially when there hasn't been healing in work.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  Well, you know, she died at my house a year ago in March. And when I was alone with her, she would wildly confess so much of what had happened to her. Think she had never told anyone. And much of it that I don't think that would be fair to tell the world. And I'd seen it in many places, but it's harder to recognize when it's you that the person the person is meanest to is the person they feel the safest with. Right? And at a certain point, I had to realize,

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  oh, my God, that person is me. That's me. And she's not going to die unless I leave. I have to leave. I have to go away.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  So many people have a difficult time in our culture, embracing death and what it means. And it seems like your experiences have given you some really unique tools.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  It's a beautiful thing. I've seen it a lot of times. And I'm, I think my mom's was the hardest one I've seen. But usually, it's a beautiful thing. And I see people really enjoying it. And I can say, I don't think we should be afraid. At all. Not even a little bit. I think we should feel like it's a warm bath of goodness.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's a good note to.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a happy note. That's what I want to be. I want to be the happy death person. That's how I want you to remember me. Let's just kick with that.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  We can do some good. Because we have a listener question where we can help some folks out. So we don't have to end on the happy death.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  All right. Who's our listener question?

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  So this is Agnes. Dear Michelle and Craig, I'm 50 years old and recently had a major health event. I had a close call with a cancer diagnosis. And since then, I have had a major shift in my outlook on life. Once I was out of the danger zone, I quit my job, retired early, and now I'm traveling the world. My children and loved ones are worried about me, especially with me leaving a job I've had for over 20 years. My son calls me careless and my marriage is straining, especially as my husband now feels he's bearing the burden of our family's finances. How do I help them understand that this is the real me and that I'm trying to live my life to its fullest? This is from Agnes from Vermont.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Well, Agnes, first of all, I would like to say to you, congratulations on your recovery.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  And I would also like to say it's not your responsibility to give your family understanding. It is your family's responsibility to get their own understanding.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Here, here.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  It is your responsibility to get your understanding for yourself. And if your responsibility makes it uncomfortable for your family to participate in your life, that'll be their decision. The only understanding that is your responsibility is for you to understand that you may lose their regular participation in your journey. That there will be consequences to the decisions that you're making and that you will have to bear the consequences of these decisions. You can't make them understand something that's so foreign to them because they haven't shared

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

  this defining experience that you have. And people who take their life for granted can be very judgy. It sounds like your other vocation is matter how wonderful it may have been is something you thrived in and were good at. But now, you're really good at something that is bigger. What you have to recognize, Agnes, and when you go to France, you'll be Agnes, is that you will find yourself having new names, new associates, and you'll be new and that'll be exciting.

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  What you will miss, what you will lose, what will hurt is the familiarity of those four corners. You'll be able to visit them, but you won't be able to stay.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Wow. I mean, I just, my, the analogy I use and have often used when you are growing is like that, a climb up Mount Everest. And then like, everybody starts out at base camp excited about the climb. Everybody wants to get to the top because it sounds exciting, right? But then you start the climb and people come to the climb with different skills and abilities. Like, some people didn't train, you know? Some people get altitude sickness. They don't even know that they're not ready for the climb, right? But then you start climbing and you hit the first summit. And some people fall off, you know?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  And you can't stay with them if you want to get to the top because there's something for you at the top. But that means you've got to leave somebody at that first summit and you go to the next summit. The same thing happens. Well, and the other thing that you can do when you get to the top is look for ways to help those who didn't make it. Now, they may not get to the top, right? But they can get further than they would have.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Well, you can say, go over there. Take that path. Oh, don't go there, you'll fall off. But there are people who A, won't listen. And there are people who will be mad at you for not hauling them up, for not pushing them, for not yanking them, for not carrying their bags.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  And that may be what Agnes will have to go through with her family. You know, it may not be a total leave behind, but she can only do what she can to help them understand where and why she's going, where in the direction that she's going.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  She's taken a bite out of life. You know, in my world, I have survived being like a Marilyn Monroe, right? Or something. These women before me did not survive it, right? I have great admiration for them. But they weren't allowed to survive it. I was not allowed to survive it, and I did.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Wow. That's.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  That's very.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  That, I think, that's a mic drop response to a listener question right there. Sharon Stone.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  To quote the master, Obama out.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. I could listen to you forever.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  You did not disappoint.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Well, look who's talking.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  You are, you know, you're one of ones.

• 1:17:11Speaker 03

  I'm Emma Greed, host of Aspire with Emma Greed, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Greed, available wherever you get your podcasts.