Harness the Hustle with 2 Chainz

This week, Grammy Award-winning rapper, songwriter, actor and entrepreneur 2 Chainz joins the show to discuss growing up as an only child in College Park, playing basketball, and the business of trapping. Plus, 2 Chainz goes deep on what it meant to reconnect with his father late in life. In this episode: Dr. Kathleen Jordan, Chief Medical Officer, of Midi Health Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I don't remember things that don't mean a lot to me anymore. Like, like if I'm out, I mean, hey, how you doing? I'm, um, whatever, whatever. Okay, I don't really need to remember this name. I don't have to like waste room in my mind to try to remember. You know what I mean? Like, hey, nice to meet you. But then it was like.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Two Chains, that sounds like getting old.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Nah, it's, it's getting wise.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  It's getting wise.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  It is getting wise.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  You don't need to remember nothing that don't mean nothing to her. Have somebody can you, Craig? You remember, man. When you like, I'm gonna remember that. But I remember important stuff. If it's important, I know my daughter got a prom this weekend. And I need to make sure she got her, everything she need. I don't need to remember.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  You left him with all the resources.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I left him with everything they needed. The car, the driver, everything.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Hey, how you doing today?

• 0:57Speaker 02

  I am doing great. I am so excited. Our, our guest today, I mean, a bunch of people just, it, their, their minds will be blown.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, let me tell you.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  On a whole different level. We've got Two Chains here today.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  We got Two Chains and I know a couple of brothers living in my house who are gonna think I'm like the coolest dude.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz they, I have no credibility in my own house. So my nephews don't think that I'm cool.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  No, no, your nephews think you're cool. They don't think I'm cool.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Oh, but you're with me. Don't they think you're cool?

• 1:30Speaker 01

  No, that doesn't count.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  See, this is what I'm saying.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  That doesn't count.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  This is what I'm saying. Well, why don't we just?

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Just get right to it?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Let's just get right to it.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  So our guest today is Two Chains, who is a Grammy Award winning rapper, songwriter, actor, and entrepreneur. He is known for his platinum selling music that has garnered more than 11 billion streams, as well as his business portfolio that spans restaurants, hospitality, tech, and beyond. His New York Times bestselling memoir, which is sitting right here next to me, is called The Voice in My Head Is God. Everybody should go out and grab one of these. It is a great read.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  It's a truth teller.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  A truth teller, but it's a, it's a fun read. And without further ado, let's bring out our new pal, Two Chains.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Two Chains.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  How you doing, man? I'm blessed, man. Thank you. This is an honor.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  You a busy, you a busy dude.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  A little bit.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Very busy. Very, very, you got a tour going on, you got, you got a prom going on. You got, you got college graduate getting ready to go to college? No, well, not college, high school graduate getting ready to go to college?

• 2:51Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  You chuggling a lot of stuff.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  So this is, this is my daughter. I got it. I don't need your help until I need your help. When really, we could have fixed this in the first place. So my daughter now is on her second prom dress.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Made no sense. The first one came, I never even knew this. The first one, she ordered from overseas. The man at the door said he need money for terrors before he can even give. I didn't even know you paid a terror at the door.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  At the door.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  I didn't even know that.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  You probably don't.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  I, I just so.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  I never heard of that.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  He came, he said, or I can just take the box with me. So now this is my daughter's dress from, Lord, I don't know, Russia. I don't know where she ordered this dress from. You get the dress, you don't even like the dress. But you really getting the dress based on a picture, which I understand. Cool. And then you get another dress that you love. So I'm happy about that. And then today, you go get some lashes, and I've never heard of this. You get your, all your lashes done, but then you don't like them. So then you gotta do, you know, so I'm just really going through that. But like, I'm not there going through it, but.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Well, hold up. Let's back up for a minute. When did you start getting prom dresses without going to the store and trying it on?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Wake up, Rip Van Winkle.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Come on, man. They, they, they, they, yeah, they, they, they tapping and zapping and stuff. No, it's, it's different, man. You know how they'll be using, you know, AI to, in a minute to put the, they probably already are to, to put different dresses on with the different house, hairstyle. So, you know, kids, we all have them, we all love them, and, you know, that's that.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Here's the thing about that, though. The fact that she's a self-starter, right? That she does wanna do stuff on her own.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  That's, that's true.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  You know, that.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Can't be mad at that.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  That's a good sign.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Can't be mad at that.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  You know, that, that's a sign that mom and dad did something right.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Well, Two Chains, we wanna get into all your history. And we really wanna talk about your bestselling novel.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  And congratulations. You told me you didn't even know you were on the bestsellers list.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  I mean, I knew when I knew.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  But you weren't looking for it.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  I didn't know when other people knew, maybe, you know? Cuz I, I just really had my head down and a very hectic schedule. Maybe a little bit more ramped up than when I'm promoting a project. Definitely if it wasn't more ramped up, it was in different, on different platforms that I, I want, normally went to. And I, I mean, it just, it just paid off against my transparency, my honesty, of course, my devon air. You know, intellect and other things.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Just came shining through.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Your vulnerability does. It, it, it means a lot to, for you to embrace your story and to be able to tell it in such a clear, um, uh, you know, it's just, you bring clarity to stuff in a very special way.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  What was the process of writing your first book like?

• 5:40Speaker 00

  So I came up with the, the idea to talk about intuition and how it's like my gut feeling and this divine guidance that I've been using for a very long time and really hadn't talked about it or shared it in any music, any platform, any interview. It was almost like this secret sauce that I had, right? For example, when I started working on the book, I found my, my father was incarcerated a good part of my life, which we talk about in here. And so I found a stack of his letters. I don't know how I found this, but they were from 2003, and they were around the holidays. My, my father's birthday is on Christmas. So these letters were from like Thanksgiving to Christmas. Now, when I read them, now they're over 20 years old. But now when I read them now, I have a way different understanding

• 6:22Speaker 00

  for some of the things we were talking about, from the things that they were eating, the, the language that he was using, comparing, you know, you know, the, the things that he was saying as far as like, um, he wasn't calling himself an inmate. They were, it was another term he was using. What they ate on Thanksgiving, what football game was going, I'm reading all this. But it was something that I noticed on, on the back, and I've always noticed this, on the back of every letter, it was God is love on the envelope. I ripped the envelope, I read what's inside, but it was on the envelope the whole time.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  It would say God is love, and it really hit me one day that maybe that's just what it is. It's that simple. God is love. If you got love in, it has God in. And so I started, that's when the title came, The Voice in My Head. It's got to be God. You know, you hear God, you're made in the image of God. God is inside of you. God is, so I'm thinking, you know, duh. I'm like, it just, it just felt like it hit me. So then I got really excited and started using a bunch of my like musical resources to put the book together, even with the audio part. Of course, I read my own book. I love reading. I added like production. So on some of the scenes that I described, you'll, you'll hear tires screeching

• 7:41Speaker 00

  or you'll hear sirens and, and it's just, it just, I just made it really fun to do, put together.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  A little bit of that comes from somewhere. Can you tell us about your mom, who I got to meet on FaceTime?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Just now. She was, she was gardening.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was on, she was on the yard.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  She didn't know how to flip her phone around and show me her garden.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  You're not supposed to, you're not supposed to FaceTime women without telling them. But I was like, you know.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  I don't, she didn't seem like she minded.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  But she, she, look, when you left the room, she was like, you gotta see my yard. I got black mulch. We on that too. I'm like, mama, you know you're gonna need some more of that black mulch, you know, uh, it's, it's cool to have yard talks with your mom. You know what I mean? Like, you know, that black mulch ain't gonna last all summer. You better get some, cuz we had, I did this for you already. I grow, so you can, well, you want, I got hay now. So, anyway, we just had that conversation. But my mom is, um, she'll be 76 in July. Her and my oldest are born on the same day. It's, it's, it's, it's insane. And growing up with my mom, she's always been there for me. She's always been there for me. She's always been a supporter of anything that I've done.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  But a lot of my growth came from the nature aspect of just being outside, playing sports, riding the bus, meeting friends. It just, you know, like my life, my elementary was different from my, my, my junior high. It was just different from my high school. I played on all these teams. I even went to college. So all of these are like chapters in my, in the book of life.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  And you, and, and all of those situations, I, I, I assume gave me this resilience and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Gave me a perspective. You got coaches that if they are good coaches, they could act as father figures sometimes. They have, you know what I mean? So just like those things, when I look back, teachers. It's some teachers that know how to be impactful, you know? So in my upbringing, there was a lot of that too. It wasn't just my mom. My mom was there. She didn't abandon me or anything like that. But a lot of the, my teachings really came from like people outside my family.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  We, we are definitely gonna talk about hoops at some point here. But I'm, I'm, I am pretending to be my sister now, and I wanna know what was little Two Chains like? Like, like your first memories and what that was like? What, what the smells were, what you ate, what, how, how you grew up when you were little?

• 10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. When I grew up, my, my mother and father were together, I wanna say to maybe six or seven. So I can actually remember some of those times. My daddy had a, a yellow Cadillac with a yellow leather. And he had a black Cadillac. He had two Cadillacs. He wore cowboy hats.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  He was a hustler. My mom,

• 10:42Speaker 00

  ever since I, I can remember, dabbled in real estate, like property, loan management, loan officer, whatever.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Me, always the only child.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  And my mom, my mother tell you that she didn't, she'll tell you this with a smile on her face, that she didn't want to have me. Like this is my dad's idea.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  She, she didn't want to have kids.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  She didn't want to have kids, yeah. And, uh, and she said I hurt really, really bad. And my dad didn't want.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Got a big head.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so. She say, he like pussies. She like, you come, she turned into the X, you come push. And, uh, she says, uh, so you know, I've been asked for like a brother or whatever. So she says, you know, she went on and told me when I was young, like, baby,

• 11:33Speaker 00

  you hurt me so bad that I had my tubes tied, clipped and burnt. How do I know this exact phrase that, that day I had you? And burnt. Ain't no, there's no way. I'm like, man, you didn't think she was like that day? I didn't want to see you. I was mad at your dad. But obviously, you know, when it became just me and her, we became best friends. We became locked in and, and, uh, those memories are just like, you have those survival stories, but it's not like any other. Nothing that you can't, a hurdle that you can't come across, man. You know what I mean? We had encounters with, um, the law. We had encounters with,

• 12:15Speaker 00

  you know, maybe the neighborhood that we were staying in.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  And what age were it just, was it just the two of you?

• 12:21Speaker 00

  From probably eight, nine, all on, you know? And my mom, we stayed in, um, so when I explain certain things that are, are urban, I, I, on this show, I will talk about like the word trap, right? It's something that

• 12:36Speaker 02

  And don't feel like you have to, you know, uh, just, you know.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Just be me, right?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  It always works, yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. You know, we know what you're talking about. You're talking to us.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  You're not talking to the audience.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Okay. So a trap, that's good. It's not a lot of audience in you.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  So the trap,

• 12:59Speaker 00

  the trap is a place where

• 13:03Speaker 00

  people come and they solicit, they buy things from this place. It's normally an apartment complex. They come and buy, most notably drugs or whatever. They come from that place. What I would like people to understand is that my mother lived in the trap, like in paid rent or section eight or whatever the heck we had. In the place where people would come in, college students, get whatever they needed, league, whatever, whatever. So I lived in a neighborhood and so I say that to say that the neighborhood, it just automatically influenced you, you like any other neighborhood. And my examples are that if I was born in Hawaii, I would be like a surfer.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  I promise you, like, I think the whole neighborhood was like, let's go.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  You'd be, you'd be the best surfer. You'd be like.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Be fine.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  You know?

• 13:52Speaker 00

  All right. And if I was from Colorado, we'd be like, Craig, let's go skiing this weekend. But I'm from a place where this is all they did. And when I try to explain like, you know, who I am and what I am, it's actually knowing that I'm staying at a place and my mother is paying rent at a place where people come and they solicit and they buy drugs and they want stuff. And now normally in a neighborhood like this, if the older people in the neighborhood, if they notice something, if they notice like a, a bright light and a kid, they'll tell them, you stay away from this.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  They didn't notice that with me. So they told me, you need to come on out here and you need to do this to help take care of your family. So for a long time, what I was doing didn't feel like it was wrong at all.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  You know, it didn't feel like it was wrong. I did it. I did it in my neighborhood. I did it in school. I, I just, I just hustled. I trapped. I did that. And, uh, that will put, that will grow you up faster than a lot of things. You know what I'm saying? Just, just.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Period. The loss of innocence at a, at a early, at an early age really helped develop who I was when it's, when you're at 14, 15, you're learning how to do money orders at the time to pay this Georgia power bill, whatever it is. And you got, you're responsible for this. And also, I'm someone who just enjoyed school. So I wasn't going drop out to try to, which was like a trend when I was coming up. A lot of kids were like, I ain't going to school. I enjoyed dressing. I enjoyed the women. I enjoyed learning. I enjoyed literally learning. I, I, I didn't make a seat at college. I talk about that a lot too, like on purpose. Just like, let me see how I feel to be normal. Let us see, this is what y'all be doing?

• 15:38Speaker 00

  This is what y'all be, this is what you be?

• 15:40Speaker 02

  It was, you, you couldn't do better than this.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, um, I feel average like y'all, but for the most part, I enjoy school. I'm like loving school, but still like got this dark side where I'm, I'm up on that, I'm outside, I'm sitting on an abandoned car, but I'm reading my book for tomorrow.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  You, you could do it with your eyes closed.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm still reading. It's the most, I can see it right now. I'm sitting on the back of a car, street light. I'm, I'm reading to somebody. Like, let me get this. I'm doing this and still like. And then people the next day, they're like, uh, the teacher, um, she, they asked the question. I'm like, ooh. And they're like, man, you don't, you ain't reading. I know the answer. I can't wait to tell y'all.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Music to my ears, man. Music to my ears.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I hear you talk about this and who you were. See, this was the part about me, like you said, no adult saw the special in you enough to tell you not to be in the trap. But you, you had to have known that they were wrong. Now you had to go out there and do it because that was the way of life. And you could do it because you could pretty much do anything. If you put your mind to it, you know, you could ski, surf, whatever, whatever was before you. Didn't the instinct tell you, I'm better than they think I am?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  One of my favorite parts of traveling is seeing how locals actually live. You can hit all the famous touristy spots, but I always remember the little neighborhood coffee shops or restaurants or parks even more. That's the stuff that sticks with me long after you get home. I was back in one of my old neighborhoods for a visit. I was able to take my family to some of my favorite spots. We went by a couple of restaurants I love and the bookstore I frequented. And that's why I want to tell you about listing your space on Airbnb. If you're traveling at all this year, listing your home on Airbnb is not just a practical option for your space. It can also be a fun opportunity to show off your neighborhood.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  You can earn a bit of extra income all while providing an authentic local experience for travelers from all over the world. And on top of that, listing with Airbnb means your home won't be sitting totally unused while you're away. Triple win. Every time I travel and opt for booking a space on Airbnb, I always end up discovering parts of a city I would have never found otherwise. It's the little unique touches that really add up and make a trip truly memorable. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Meech, I've been thinking about how overwhelming big life decisions can feel these days between the endless stream of information, social media and that constant FOMO the kids talk about. Do you feel like people are overthinking things more than they used to? Or is it just harder to make a choice when we have so many options?

• 18:53Speaker 02

  No, I, I think it's a little bit of both. You know, I think with so much information coming in, we just have so much more to process. And, you know, there's only so much the human brain can take in. And, and then, yeah, we feel inundated with choices. We feel like there are too many options. But most importantly is having a strong team. You know, learning to let go, that I can't make every big decision, you know, by myself and I shouldn't. So I surround myself with really smart people, um, that I can count on. I let go of a lot and trust that they're gonna, you know, do their job and bring me the information that I need to do my job.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  So I've just learned that it's, you know, it's no victory for me to do these things alone, making these big decisions alone.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  As the kids say, facts. For me, knowing I have a solid circle to talk things through is usually what helps me get clarity. Progressive knows that big decisions at any stage of life can feel daunting. That's why having the right support and resources makes all the difference. Progressive's Up Payment Program falls under their broader Open the House initiative, a multi-year effort focused on helping more people achieve homeownership. Right now, they're expanding the Up Payment Program, offering up to $13,500 each in down payment assistance to at least 200 eligible first time buyers.

• 20:26Speaker 01

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• 21:10Speaker 01

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• 21:52Speaker 01

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• 22:13Speaker 00

  What happens is when you're immature and young, sometimes people doubt it can seep into you.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  You know, I can't sit here and say that my self-confidence has been at a high level my whole entire life. I have felt like I had something different apartment for sure because I attracted people. Like I could sit at a lunch table by myself and everybody want to come eat around me. This is eighth grade, so I saw that part. But if someone can project some doubt on you.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  And you can feel that sometimes, you know, you may listen to it sometimes. But when I became, because I'm around people, you know, my upbringing, I used to hang around older people too. Like I didn't even feel, you know, when I was 15, like hanging around a 15 year old would have been in like, there's no way I could have hung around a 15 year old when I was 15. I'd already went to juvenile, I was already like, I was already.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  You're a grown man.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Now I'm a grown, I couldn't even hang with nobody. I remember telling a kid that I went to somebody's house, we like,

• 23:11Speaker 00

  grown kids, whatever that means. And I said something about Santa Claus, these people done kicked me out the, I'm like, I didn't know, this man is like, he might be 12, but you still make sense. So this later, I'll never forget it, Jonathan, if you're watching, I hadn't even been over, I go over there and we talk about this. My mom looked at me so mad.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  My daddy been and told me, my daddy one time sent me to the trunk to get some, all the gifts in the trunk. And then we stand in an apartment complex, so I say, I don't even have a chimney.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  I'm like, this ain't even. This doesn't make sense.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  You know, it just hit me, I'm like.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  And you're thinking, everybody should be able to figure this out.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm like, I mean, we can, you know, if you want to play along with it, cool, but like, you serious? You really, you really believe, so I'm like, I say this. No folks, no folks sent me home, you know, so when I'm, when I'm coming up, I'm hanging with people two or three years older than me, just because I feel like if I'm in the 10th grade, hanging with seniors or someone out of school, it's more my speed or whatever. So when you graduate and you just out of school, not doing it, it's easier for you to project something on me as a sophomore or junior because you ain't really doing that with your life or whatever. Or you working at a warehouse or whatever you're doing, you know what I'm saying?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Let's go back to when you said, you're talking about how

• 24:31Speaker 01

  in most communities, people would see somebody like you and say, hey, you don't need to be going over there. You got too much going for you. That was me. I was, I, you and I are not that different.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  I just had the folks in the neighborhood, because we, me should, me should tell you, we grew up in the same type of a neighborhood. It was, it was, I'm older than you are obviously, but I want our, our, our listeners and viewers to know that because people might think we're like close to the same age.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  He's old, he's 60, 100 years old.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  That was supposed to be a joke.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  I get, I get what he, I get.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  But so they steered me away, they were like, Craig, this ain't for you.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  You come up to the courts, gang guys playing, everybody's playing, you be on this team. Stuff's about to pop off, Craig, you better go home.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Let's get you out of here.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Let's get you out of here. You somehow didn't have that and dealt with all the stuff you dealt with, but you circled back around

• 25:29Speaker 01

  on your own or with the help of some other people? How did you circle back around? Because you circled back around and was a good enough student, straight A student, you know, A and B, like you said. Good enough ball player to be recruited, which I want to talk, what AAU team did you play for?

• 25:46Speaker 00

  I played for Team Georgia. Yeah, I played for Team Georgia.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  I'm sure I saw you play.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, Coach Outlaw.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Rest in peace to Coach Outlaw, but yeah, that, and then like, like Team Sports helped kids. Yeah, like Team Sports, I've been seeing stuff go viral, like don't put your kid on the AAU team, all that stuff. Like, man, with social development with, man, you, you, and some kids, you know, some parents got more groceries at their house. It's just, it's just like, it's a part of like, for me, it was, it was definitely a part of my upbringing. And then another thing, I, when I was playing basketball, it was a God given talent. Like how my son has God given talent and I'm taking him to train three, four times a week. It wasn't like that with me. I just came out, I started playing when I was seven years old for MLK in Atlanta. They had an 8-0 team, I started playing when I was seven.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  By the time I was nine, 10, I remember when I, by the time I was 12, I was like, I could hoop. But what happened was when I got into high school, I was doing the one foot out, one foot in thing. So I was still playing ball, but I was still trying to like hustle for me and my mom, whatever, whatever the excuse is, you know what I mean? Or, and I did that, I did one foot in, one foot out, all the way until I started doing music, literally. And it took me that long to realize that you can't do both. You have to let something go, you have to shed off. You can't have one foot in, one foot out and do this and like, it's just not going to pay off. So with basketball, even though I got 11th grade, I had boxes of letters from D1. You know what I mean?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  It was like me and my other guy, DC, we would get letters out there, you know, it'd be so cool, coach would come out. And I remember lavender Northwestern letters, I remember Tennessee, that Tennessee orange, I remember Memphis. I remember the Tiger, I remember these schools, I'm getting these different letters. South Carolina, South Carolina State, Maryland, Maryland Eastern Shore. And, um, but I'm still one foot out, I'm still like, I'm literally having days where I have a friend and I say, hey, you go to the court today, I'm going to stay here and I'm going to sell drugs all day.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Did you have your one foot in, one foot out because you weren't sure if you could make it? Or was, was it a survival thing?

• 28:07Speaker 00

  It was absolutely survival.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  So you have, you had.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  I had to do this, I had to do this. And then like, when you, when you, it becomes like a brotherhood thing, this may be too much information, but you start.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  No, it's never too much information.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  You start going in on packages with your friends. You're like, man, give me, you know, we going on a package and now this is ours. And, um, you know what, Craig, man, you know, I hoop yesterday, man, you go, I'll stay here and handle this spot. And, uh, you know, you go now, now Greg is not better than me and I'm supposed to be the basketball star in the crew, but I got to give him like a day off to go do some, and then the next day, it's, it's, it's crazy how organized it is. Next day, crazy, you know what, you know what, man, I hoop, man, you, you go on out there with the boys. I stay here and I'll sell the stuff that we went in on. And this happened to me, I'm talking about all the way through college, all the way through college, all the way through. I start rapping, I'm still one foot in, one foot out.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  And it was this, it was this one thing that happened, one thing that happened. And it was, I, I went on tour with, with Lil Wayne. And after two months of being on tour with Wayne, when I came back to Atlanta, I went cold turkey. People thought I was, man, stop playing, man, anyway, let me, and man, they did that for like a week. And I was just like, I don't, I don't do that, I don't do that, I don't do that. You can't be, I, I, it hit me, I had to actually see like, oh, this, this how you become a super, this, I had a studio at the time. Yeah, I had a Porsche, I had every, I had that, but I was still like doing, kind of having the same concept, going on the road, leaving this with somebody.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  And this same concept, just, and, uh, like this ain't, literally.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  What did you see and what was Lil Wayne, what did you see with Lil Wayne?

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Structure, discipline, uh, uh, very habitual, same thing, over and over, uh, show, food, work all night.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Work, work, get some good news, thank you, work, show, work.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Make sure the family good, do this, work, again, no, no extra, no, none, and it's just like.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  A level of professionalism.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Man, and I hadn't, I hadn't, man, I'm, I'm a, I'm great at observing too. Like I learned a lot of stuff from just watching too. I learned how to drive a five speed or stick from watching my cuz. I used to just be like, watching, now granted, the first time I took the trash out, I couldn't get over the speed bump. But I learned a lot from observing, so when I'm, when I'm with him and I'm just seeing how he move, I'm talking about from having a shelf, so you don't have to eat bad, right? You don't have to eat, right? So you got a shelf, you got somebody that like can drive you somewhere, so you don't have to. Cause a lot of times with creators, we write a lot of stuff in our head or thinking stuff. So just driving could be a problem. You just like, I don't miss my eggs, I don't miss the time, I'm on a one way.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  So just having those things, when I got back, man, I got all that stuff in there, I mean, I got my shelf. You know what I'm saying? This is what I'm eating, you know what I mean? Cause you got to put the right stuff in, you put the right stuff to come out, you know what I'm saying? I started just making things more convenient and I started being able to focus just on this and my whole life changed.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  At what age did music sort of, you, you start thinking, and, and I know it's one foot in, one foot out, but you were thinking music might be a way for me.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  That's a good question.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Another good question.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  That's a good question.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  He's racking up.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Because that's a good, that's, that's, the reason that's a good question is because most artists you see, they started very young and I had a childhood, I actually like, it was like I had, you had a childhood. A lot of rappers can't say they was on A, so I had a childhood. So on one of these podcasts, I can't remember, they made me call like a teacher, like I had to call a teacher on the spot, right? It was very informed, it was very, it was one of the most sweetest things that I ever heard about myself because she's never told me that her name is Miss Love. And when I, I got kicked out of school in my 12th grade year for, for selling cannabis. So six teachers wrote letters to get me back in school.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  I remember Miss Love's letter clear about not letting a child go to waste and how much I mean or whatever. So I was, I called Miss Love. And she remembered the letter and she remembered what the other teachers said at the time. And she, she said that I made her teach differently after I left. And she threw up a scenario that I don't even remember when, you know, they used to ask us what we want to be when we grow up.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Environment, whatever, whatever. And she said that I said, I'm gonna work for myself. And, and she said, I don't think, you know, I don't, yeah, I basically said entrepreneur, but I'm not even sure if I had this.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  The word.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  This word at the time. But I knew for a fact that the thing that I was hearing, and I didn't want to do that. So, you know, we would say basketball player, just to get them off our tail. Like, yeah, basketball, you know what I mean? But deep down inside, I didn't feel like I was going to the NBA. Like, you feel, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, you know inside, like, if you're around here, like, like, you of age and you lollygagging, like, I think I'm a, like, you know inside what.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  So, I don't, I'm not going to the NBA, but I know I'm not going, like, being in traffic at seven in the morning on the way to work with, like, a coffee thing. I've never seen that. I never, I never saw that in my mind. I'm not, I'm not gonna be, like, running late, grabbing a briefcase, like, being in traffic or, or coming home. Like, I never with a coffee. Yeah, you know? I never, I never, I just never saw that image.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  So, it's older, I'm hanging with older guys, once again. They rap. I'm just around and interested. Like, this is so cool.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Watching again.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, watching again. Man, they rapping. They rap, they taking photos. You know, I'm just selling stuff at this car wash, you know what I'm saying? But I'm watching these guys and they say, um, so then sometimes I would, like, play around, like, kind of try to, like, freestyle. And they were like, man, you ought to come to the studio and, you know, lay some ass stuff down. I'm like, okay. So I'm learning again. I see how you do it. And like, the second time I ever recorded, I got so much great feedback that I told myself,

• 34:25Speaker 00

  you might be able to do this for a living.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  So who gave you the feedback?

• 34:29Speaker 00

  It was just, like, so we put this, we put a compilation that was called Player Circle. We put a project out in a, in a, in a neighborhood. And then I also took it down to college. I went to school at Alabama State University. And, uh, this is CDs. CDs, this is not.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. We were just talking about CDs. Remember this, the young people?

• 34:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, CDs. You know, we would try to sell CDs out the trunk, five dollars, just try to make, you know what I mean? And I swear to you, people would say, you, you don't hear rap? Man, I got it. I got, it was almost like, bro, I'm, I think it's like, I know I'm finna die laughing. And man, what? You don't hear? Boy, come on, I, come on, boy, I can't wait. I ain't gonna lie. They start coming back. That was all, that, that, I started being like,

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Here we go.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  You know, so I started hearing, and so I got other friends that's been rapping before me. And then, you know, they would talk to me like, oh, man, what, what made you say this or made you come that way? And I was just like, you really just kind of like, talk about your life, right? You know, and by this time, I've been through so much, you're like, well, I can do this. I can do this. I can do this one, you know, and, um,

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Had you ever kept a journal? Had you ever, did you, you know?

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I don't even write rhymes.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  I work every night, so I don't, yeah, I write every night. I mean, I work every night, try to record every night. So, so I go on, I go through my whole day. This is, this is how I'm thinking about, this is how I think my mind works. I go through all day and it just takes these little secret screenshots. And then I hear a beat and then it'll just make me say something about Michelle Obama for some reason. You know what I'm saying?

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Okay, put me in your next rap.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it just be, it just.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Just remember this, screenshot.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  It'll just be something. And, um, and so a lot of my creativity comes from just being literally outside my house. Moving around, going places, going out, seeing stuff. And, um, but I, I saw something where somebody had a journal. And although my handwriting sucks, I was like, it would be cool to, like,

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Just be able to jot it down.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  Jot stuff down, but right now, um,

• 36:34Speaker 02

  That's not your process.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Okay, so we go to the gym, we work out on our muscles, we do this right here. What's a brain exercise, besides like a crossword puzzle, right? So for me, my brain exercise, or my brain, uh, push up or pull up is that I remember this stuff that I'm putting in my head. It's like, I still try to remember, use my mind, like, you know what I'm saying? I use, and I talk about my brain a lot, like gigabytes, and how I don't have as much room left.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  So I don't remember things that don't mean a lot to me anymore. Like, like, if I'm, I mean, hey, how you doing? I'm, um, whatever, whatever. Okay, I don't really need to remember this name. I don't have to, like, waste room in my mind to try to remember, you know what I mean? Like, hey, nice to you. But then it was like.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  That sounds like getting old.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Nah, it's, it's getting wise.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  It's getting wise.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  It is getting wise.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  You don't need to remember nothing that don't mean nothing to her. Have somebody, can you create, you remember, man? You're like, I'm gonna remember that, but I remember important stuff. If it's important, I know my daughter got prom this weekend. And I need to make sure she got her, everything she need. I don't need to remember.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  You left them with all the resources.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I left them with everything they needed. The car, the driver, everything. But I, I'm not wasting my storage.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  On something that just don't mean nothing to me.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you rely on the storage in your head.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I try to work my, I try to use my brain.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  And do you still do stuff every night?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I do stuff, it may come out, it may not. But I feel like, creators, we're so delusional. We go to the, we go, we go to the studio, no, nothing, just a speaker and an engine, you know, like news. And we go in there and we, we go in there and we, we tell ourselves, we gonna make a, we gonna make a song that's gonna change our life, people's life. And we go in there and we swing hard every night. And sometimes it, sometimes it's a foul, sometimes it goes, sometimes, but we're musicians. Like myself, I don't, people don't write for me, so I have to go in there and create. But like, most people, if they write for you, just come in and I just say this over. But if you're in there doing your own work, you're one of the most delusional people on the face of this earth.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  You're just like, okay, buddy, he, he's like, all right, all right, all right, press record. You know what I'm saying? And then you hope an hour or two later, like, this, this guy might be okay. Or, you know what I mean? So that's, that's very, that's very delusional, for real. That's a delusional job to have. Kids that keep wanting to be a rapper, think about that. Going to work every night, like, okay, you need one.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Well, you, you've done pretty good with your delusions.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

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• 40:39Speaker 02

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• 43:24Speaker 02

  When, how did you meet Keisha?

• 43:27Speaker 00

  I met Keisha in college. She was standing up.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Alabama?

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Alabama State. I would ride with my boy Twan. And she was sitting up there on the hill.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Was she in school?

• 43:38Speaker 00

  She was in school. Little, little, pretty little bow-legged thing, Miss Obama.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  I said, "Man, what's that?" He told me, "Man, her name is Keisha. She from Atlanta, too." I said, "For real?" And she just had this complexion, like, it looked like, it looked like she was having on makeup, but she never wore makeup. And then, we started dating, and then she would go to church.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  How'd you approach her?

• 44:01Speaker 00

  Like I'm him. Like, "Hey, you ready for this ride?" I'm not sure what the words was, but I approached her. And she, she, she, she went, she bit. And, uh, you know, at this time, I'm in school, I'm still like, obviously like hustling. I'm like, I'm in Alabama, but I'm like, well-known in Atlanta, you know? And, um, her mom at the time, you know, me and her mom are very cool and close now, but at the time, she like, "I don't know if this is the guy for you," you know? So then I like, I bought Keisha a car, you know, did something like that, little get-around, little, pay a little cellphone bill. So the mom like, "I'm not gonna pay your stuff." "All right, cool. I got it." So I had my own place, and she had her own.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  And then eventually, it didn't make sense. I'm like, "I can pay him two bills." So we moved in together against like, older people, you know, like shacking up and all of that.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  How old were you?

• 44:58Speaker 00

  We were in college.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  So while you were at school, you moved in together?

• 45:01Speaker 00

  We were in college, and then, uh, she would go to church. This would really seal the deal. She would go to church and take notes, and then like, highlight the notes, and then like, look at them later on, like it was a class, like later on during the week. I have a, I have a spiritual background as well, you know? Um, I very much believe in God, you know? And, uh, going to church all the time is something I don't normally do, and especially now, I can't. Last time I went to church was Mother's Day, maybe a year or two ago, and Lord, before the church was over, it was a photo line down. I'm like, and then they didn't tell my mom. She just saw me in there and did that same look when we FaceTimed, "Oh, my God!" You know, I just snuck in there in the back. But, um, with Keisha, uh, we met then, you know, great friends.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  We laugh every day. People ask me to see, like, we laugh every single day. It's something that we just gonna laugh about every day. Became close, built this union, had this little family. They all look like her, so that's a good thing, you know? That's a good thing. And, um, man, you know, really ain't skipped a beat. I wanna say that everything has been perfect, obviously, because nothing can be perfect, but I'm, I'm, I never leave.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Like, you did, right? Like you say, you, you pick a good partner.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  And I say this all the time to young men, you know? It's like, don't pick easy, you know? Pick somebody that's gonna help you win, right? Because if you were picking your, picking your pickup basketball team, you would get somebody that could do everything. You're not gonna just pick somebody that just shoots and doesn't dribble. You know, everybody's gotta be able to shoot, dribble, score, defend, right? And some, I think some men, you know, "You cute." And it's like, well, that, you know what?

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Cute ain't, ain't gonna help you when you, you know, trying to raise good kids, you know? She gotta have sense, you know? She's gotta have her own hustle. She's gotta have her own confidence. That means she has a voice, and it may not be easy. She might not just yes you to death, you know? So, you know, excellence is hard on both ends. And some guys want easy. And easy doesn't help sometimes, you know? And it sounds like Keisha is a all-around player.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Let's, let's, let's note, and, and Two Chainz, thank you very much. You got my sister to use a basketball analogy.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  It was really good.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I mean, it just, she...

• 47:33Speaker 00

  She said, "When you picking a team, you wanna win." It was a good, it was really good.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  And if you watch, if you watch this show, anytime I do that, it's like, "Why you always talking about basketball?"

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you done rubbed off, or that was a good one. That was a really good analogy, too. Like, you gotta pick the right team, you wanna win. And, and, and I wear on it, even from a family aspect.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  So, so now I'm gonna be my sister, so, talk about your fashion, 'cause I'm, you know, I'm trying to...

• 47:58Speaker 00

  You can, you know, tall, tall, you got the, you know? We already, that's, that's already a W in the column, you tall.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? You tall.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  You should be able to look good and everything.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, so you tall. Now it's about finding out, as we age and body does different little proportions and stuff, it's about you finding out what, what kinda lay on you the right way and make you feel comfortable, you know what I'm saying? And is it tight, baggy, is it sweats, is it t-shirt, is it, you know, what it is? And for me, um, I'm tall, dark, handsome, smart, all those things, you know? Um, and, um, I have just always been into fashion, ever since I was a, a, a kid. I've just always been into, I've always cared. Like, a lot of people like, don't, you know, care what it, but I've always just cared. Today, I went, you know, a little green, a little pop.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  With that little brown, too? I mean, that was a creative, that's a creative color choice, right there.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  I gave myself a high five. I went in the mirror, I was like, "This is good," because I know it's coming on your shirt, so I didn't wanna be, I didn't wanna be, you know what I'm saying?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  But they sent something out to me, "Don't be wearing jury that, make noise." Man, I said, "Who jury that is?" Because my jury don't make noise. That, that, that stuff come out, the bubble gum machine, if it's making all kind of noise. My stuff don't. I said, "They must've been sending that to some other rapper." I mean, I'm gonna separate myself early on. My stuff don't make that kind of noise. But, uh, you know, it was just a day, it's a beautiful day out here in sunny California. So, you know, I did, I did about 40 push-ups this morning.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Say it's like, we gonna let the, we gonna let the guns out.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  It's light, it's light, Miss Obama, it's light. Ain't going too much, you can do this, you can do this at the foot of your bed. And, uh, and, uh, but I, I, the voice, it's crazy, because I listen to the voice in my head when I'm putting clothes on. I, I, I listen to it for everything. It probably could be annoying to an average person, but I listen to it for everything. Like, man, you, listen, I'm just, it's telling me to do this. It, my, I can see my closet in my head, I can, it go, it's just like, it's the wildest thing. So with the, with this, I guess circling back to the book, I use, um, or this voice is just a part of most decisions that I, that I make. So the voice literally, literally told me to put this, this on today, and I guess it, it worked out.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Right again?

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Summer may be close to ending, but I'm still spending quite a bit of time on my feet, walking around, traveling, trying to squeeze every last bit out of this nice weather. So I appreciate anything that makes all of that a little more comfortable. Bombas is my go-to for socks. They're soft and cushioned where you need it, but still airy and sweat-wicking, so your feet aren't begging you to call it a day before you are. I also think it's really cool how they make socks for a whole range of sports, too. I grabbed a four-pack of the All Sport Ankle Socks, which are perfect for everyday puttering around and maybe squeezing in the gym if need be. Bombas has the basics covered, too,

• 51:12Speaker 01

  with super soft, breathable underwear and t-shirts. Plus, for every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting. Head over to bombas.com/imo and use code IMO for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash IMO. Code IMO at checkout. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or Ferglipron. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine

• 51:54Speaker 01

  used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary, thyroid cancer, or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once-daily Foundo is available by prescription only in 0.8mg, 2.5mg, 5.5mg, 9mg, 14.5mg, and 17.2mg tablets.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Learn more at foundo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. When I first became a homeowner, I was just absolutely racked with nerves. We waited until we saved up every single penny for that down payment. We weren't taking any chances. And today's home buyers are dealing with even bigger challenges than we had back in the day. The market is unpredictable. There are housing affordability issues, and a lack of straightforward education during the home buying journey

• 54:06Speaker 01

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• 54:50Speaker 01

  where home buyers can discover more about housing challenges and access resources and support to empower them in their housing journey. I've always admired people who bet on themselves. The friend who starts roasting coffee in their garage, the side hustle cake decorator, my wife Kelly. She loves flipping my old sports merch online. It's very fun to watch. Inevitably, anyone who wants to sell something online comes across the big question, how do I actually do this? That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is a platform built to help people start, run, and grow a business. You own your storefront, your brand, and your customer relationships,

• 55:33Speaker 01

  but Shopify helps put your products in front of people wherever they're already shopping. From Google and YouTube to social media, the shop app and more. The hardest part of entrepreneurship is usually taking that first step. The tools exist. The customers are out there. Sometimes all that's left is deciding to go for it. Take advantage of the fact that this is the easiest time to start your business in history. Head on over to Shopify.com/IMO and do something that millions of people wish they could have done.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Well, I know you brought a song for us to listen to, but before we get to the song, we have a listener question.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  That we tend to.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  We try to offer some help.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  We try and give some advice, some help.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Some opinions. That's the O in IMO.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  And this question's from Leo.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  I've been interviewing for jobs for the past few months, and the last opportunity I got pretty far in the interview process before being told I didn't get the job. My self-confidence has definitely taken a hit, and now I either overthink everything or avoid trying altogether because I don't want to fail again. I keep wondering if this says something about my abilities or if I'm just not cut out for what I'm aiming for. Even though I know logically that failure is a normal part of growth, I can't seem to shake the feeling that I've fallen behind or let myself down. How do you reframe failure in a way that actually helps you grow instead of letting it chip away at your confidence? And how can you get back to taking risks when failure starts to feel more discouraging than motivating?

• 57:14Speaker 04

  From Leo, who's in his 20s in Ohio.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  First of all, I would tell Leo that that is normal to feel, to have some type of feeling if you don't get something that you wanted. I can also tell Leo that

• 57:33Speaker 00

  that he was qualified enough

• 57:38Speaker 00

  to be on their radar, but may not be what they needed at the time.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  I can also tell him that a company should not let him know what his value is.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  That the company could, that, you know, they didn't define his full potential. They literally could have been looking for something else. And also, the confidence comes when you show up for yourself. It's not about the wins. You gotta like, when you make these promises to yourself and you really like follow up on your promises, I think that's how you build confidence. And yeah, you were qualified. So you gotta, that's me, about the silver lining. You gotta take optimism even from the nose. So even with that, you were qualified. You were on the radar. So it's not a complete like loss. It's a lesson, and it's something that's also,

• 58:42Speaker 00

  it's some experience that you can take with you. It's something that you can look back on and say, you know, I don't know if it's like how you came to the,

• 58:52Speaker 00

  where you're on time, where you, the small things. I think you start looking at the smaller things when you don't get something that you want. Like, you know what I'm saying? And you take that and you just add to it. Like, really, the failure part is something that just don't be on resumes. Like, everybody that you see up here has failed before. Everybody that you look up to has failed before. We just don't like, life is about highlights. That's how social media has. So you're looking at even the people that you look up to fail more than, man, you, me, I fail more than I can even count. And so you know that the people that you look up to fail too, but they didn't let that, you know, be permanent, and they didn't let that define them at that moment. At 20 something years old, are you serious? You know how much stuff and how much growth and how much opportunity?

• 59:37Speaker 00

  And the way you don't get the opportunities is by being down on yourself, feeling sorry for yourself, and just staying in the house. As long as you get out, as long as you mingle, meet and greet, man, God just might have something else that's better for you. So, but you can't quit and give up right now. Like, this is a part of life. It like, it has to have these little moments that discourage you. It's like, it's called life. I know like, people don't get it. But like, that's a legit part of life. Like, this little discouraging part, the let me down feeling, that's so much part of life. But you come out of this, you come out of this way stronger than you come in, and you learn, and you don't, you, the fact that

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  you were considered lets you know that you have a place in trying to do whatever you're trying to do.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, well said.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's my opinion, y'all.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  That is a beautiful opinion.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  That's my opinion, y'all.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  It is, it's good when it was.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Leo, you 20 something years old, about to quit, like, don't do that. We ain't boy, boy for real, what?

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Don't.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  No, man, you know, and I, you be excited. You, I read your book, man, I pray it didn't work, you know? Don't, don't, don't do that, like,

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  like, it's something in there. Even the whole experience of going through that. You gotta take that and add it to everything moving forward. Like, the whole experience, the whole process, you know? It just, honestly, that's, it's character building. That's what it is. The failure is good for character building. That's how I got here, I think.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  Yep, losses. Losses helps build character.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Yep, it sure does. And you, you know, life is, life is like a big muscle. And, you know, you, you gotta build it up. And every failure is like a push-up.

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  You know, it's a rep.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  It's a rep.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  You know, and the more reps you get, the stronger you get at life. And you don't get the strength without the reps. You know, you don't, using another basketball analogy, you gotta practice your shot.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  You know, and for every shot you take, you're gonna miss something. If you consider that a fail, then you stop practicing, you know? So a lot of us get through because we build up the muscle for life, and then we have a muscle for failure, too. Because you gotta learn, what's your process for getting through failure? We all figure it out, the older we get, you know? And some of it is, like you said, is disappointment.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  It is.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  You know, okay, that's the first step in your process is to be disappointment.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  That's normal.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Maybe to play in quitting. You know, maybe you tell yourself that because you mad.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  That's normal, all that's completely normal.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  It's like, that's, that's good. And that's part of your process. But you can't stay in that phase. You better be moving on to the, okay, now let me get myself together. I pouted for a day, you know? And I, I was ridiculous in thinking that it was just me. You did that, you know, you know, what was you? Now you move into what's your plan? You know, now start thinking about what you're gonna do.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  You know, first of all, I gotta start thinking a different way. I gotta turn that around. So I think we at this table, we've just been old enough, we failed enough

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  that we know that it's gonna take a second.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  But we will, we will come out of it. And then you, you know, now you know how to do it. You know how to fail.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've done that, you're good at it.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  You've done it, and everybody's gotta get good at it. And the more you do it, the better you get at it. And then the fear goes away.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  You know, because it's the fear that keeps you from the opportunity.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  The fear and doubt. Then when that, when that gets involved, it's hard to shake that.

• 1:03:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Because you, we can't hear that either. Only you can hear that.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  And Leo's so young, I'll say one thing. And this is for the parents out there. Don't protect your kids from having failures all the way up until they're 20 so that their first failure feels like a catastrophe.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  That's better than being hurt. That's it. We protect them from that.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Man, when they get it, it's just such a traumatic experience. They told me no.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, never heard that before.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  You hear that, Keisha? That's why they don't ask me now. I'm gonna make sure they know what no feels like. Struck a nerve. You know what I'm saying? That struck a nerve, T.J. This is what no feels like. Ask your daddy. Nope.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  I used to say that the girls tell me that, you know, Mom used to tell us no. I would be like, why? Because you need to know what no feels like.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, you need to feel that.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  Especially for kids like ours who, you know, there's no natural no.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Nipple babies, man.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  We grew up with a lot of no's. It was just, no, we can't afford it. No, we can't have it. That was the true answer, no.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  It was the craziest thing. I have an aunt. I have an aunt and she used to say, y'all can't go outside, it's too hot out there. Y'all can't go outside, it's too cold. I'd be like, yo, when is a good time to go outside over here? Because, you know, if it's weather, period. I can't go out in the rain. I can't go out, it's too hot. I can't go out, it's too cold. But it's like, man, they just had to tell us no. Well, you can't go out, it's too hot.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Preparing you for life.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Say, when did you?

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Kids run up and down the street. Yeah, preparing you, so. Yeah, it's the little things. It's the little things.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  But you brought us a treat.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  You're gonna make me cry. Nah, so this next song, I wrote this next song for my dad. So this song that I'm gonna play for y'all, I'm gonna play a piece of this song for y'all. It's the hardest and easiest song that I've ever recorded in my whole entire life. In my whole entire life. It was the hardest and the easiest. It's a song, it's called Pops. It has Luther Vandross, Dance With My Father sample. And I talk about, you know, what I didn't really get to finish telling him before my father passed in front of me in 2012 in the hospital.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  And I put this song out because, like, after opening up this portal and doing this book, I realized, even in his absence, how much he meant to me and, you know, and how much he's still a part of everyday activities and my way of thinking. And so I put this song out. It's been out maybe a week. And I've been getting some very long text messages from men. I didn't know men very, very long, but I've read them. And it's been some good feedback. And it's just like a song for the fathers. I know we have so many songs about our mothers because that's just like black boy joy at its peak.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  But like, I had to do something for my father. Like, I just had to, you know, for real.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  All right, well, let's listen to it.

• 1:06:38Speaker 05

  To dance with my father again.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  I know a lot of men out there don't express themselves. I miss my pops because to me, he was a hell of a man. He taught me how to box, cook, and shoot out a can. Don't know if I can drive a little range. I went to my father's house parked up. I asked my granddad where my dad locked up. He said he went to court. They kept him and let him go home. Now I'm out here all alone. It wasn't the first time I ain't crying over spilled milk. Holler at me when you sell the what you need, pimp. I'm getting older now. I'm just trying to be with you. I can't wait till I can chill with you. You gave me your release date. I'm coming to get you. Black expedition, me, my mama, and Keisha. Told pops she'd stand with me and he thought about it.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  Got him a suit, cellphone, and got him a whip.

• 1:07:30Speaker 05

  Back when I was a child.

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  So from this point on.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  I'm ready for the whole thing.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. Yeah, so my dad, he's been going to prison. It really sucks. So I'm gonna tell you these two little instances. And I'm just telling you, like, it just makes me feel a certain way. So my dad, the last time he went to prison, he was like in his 60s, legit. So I just went, parked up on my granddad. They were like, your dad, you know, your dad went to court and they kept him. I'm like, really? Like, this man too old to keep getting in trouble, you know what I'm saying? So my dad go to prison for like, I don't know, maybe two or three years. So I'm like, by this time, I got a house. I got my own house. And I'm doing the rap, and I've been writing him, telling him about, I'm doing this rap thing. But he not really getting it, and I'm really not probably explaining it well because I'm not a superstar.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  But you know what I'm saying? But I'm still hustling too a little bit, and I'm doing my rap thing. So when he get out, me and Keisha and my mom, we go pick him up from prison. And he got like, stuff he want to do soon as he get out. He need a cellphone. He need a suit. He just need, you know, he need a, you know, bank account because he got some money put, all this stuff. So he gets out, you know, I move him in with me. Like, so the first seven years, we stayed together. And like, the last seven years of his life, we stayed together. So he's, you know, he staying at the house and, and my pops started like hanging with my friends. At my studio, I'm telling you about when we hustling and all this. I would literally get there, my pop's car already be there.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  All my friends come to the side, you know, your daddy's, he back hustling again. I'm like, this is just, this is crazy to me. You know what I'm saying? Like, he taking it, getting his little package, driving out of town with it. And so when my daddy got out, I bought him like this, it was like $3,500. It was like a Ford Taurus, like a whatever. I go on the road and I come back, and it's this Cadillac in my driveway with a red boat. I'm so naive. I don't know who car this is. It can't be. So I walk in the house, Keisha, who car that is? She said, mm. I still don't get it. Because, of course, she mad because pop ain't paying no bills. And he in here coming back with new Cadillacs, CTSs.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  And I come up, I'm like, man, who car this is? He like, it's mine. What a car bought you? He snaps on me. Well, Simmons on me, I'm like, riding around on a Ford Taurus, boy. Who you think this is? Boy, I've been in jail. I'm trying, you know, he gets on me like, I'm trying to live. I ain't gonna be living too much long. I was like, hey, brother, congratulations on your car, you know what I'm saying? He gets his car, he doing his hustling, you know, he gets a black one. He trades, I didn't get a white one. Pop doing good, got his own. He's doing very, very good. And then he go through, I don't know what, he went to like Alabama for like two weeks. Did not tell me why. Just said, I'm straight, don't come looking for me. When he gets back, my dad always kept his shirt off, like he, so he has this long, um, I hurt on this side.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  He has this long incision from like on his chest. He laying down. So I'm looking, I'm like, where you get that from? He's like, I had a little procedure done.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  I'm like, it was weird. But so he had this red pillow, heart pillow that had signatures on it. I'm looking at the pillow. They like, you better not. I'm reading. It has nurses saying all this little stuff about him on his pillow. So fast forward that I have a friend that's a doctor. And for some reason, this little red pillow came up. And she says, basically, that's not a good sign. Like, in order to get that pillow, you have to go through a real procedure. Like, this is like, you don't just get this from going in. And usually people who get that don't live that much long. I lose this friend. Not friends with him. I don't think we talk. I'm like, what you talking about? You know?

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  Get mad. Get back, pop started going through whatever he going through. He end up being in the hospital. So I talked to him. I say, I'm in there with him for like, I don't know, a week or two. And, uh, maybe a week. It was a week. And I had a show in Savannah, Georgia, which is a couple of hours from Atlanta, Georgia. I sent my whole team and I said, I had been living, staying in the hospital with my dad. I said, if he says cool, I'll be down there later. I'm in the hospital with him. I say, hey, pops, I got a show down in Savannah. He said, oh, man, you know? He says, I ain't about to die no time soon. This is what it came out his mouth. He says, I ain't about to die no time soon. So I said, oh, okay.

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  And then the next thing he says is, because he's sarcastic, he says, the dope man is my role model because I had a song that said, the dope man is my role. So when he say that, I'm like, aw, man. I give him a fist pound. When I give him the fist pound, he says, do it big eps. That's our last name. I never, I can see the fist in my hand. I remember facing him down. He said, do it big eps. I go do the show in Savannah. When I come back, the man on a, a, a, I never talked to him again. He breathing on some. So I come in. I, what's happening? They said around 2 o'clock, he started losing oxygen. It was just weird as hell because he just told me at 10, 11 that, right?

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  I come back. And so this where it got really hard for me.

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  He's trying to take the tubes out his mouth. And if you take the, the nurse is saying, if you take them out, you could die this way. So they want to do what? Handcuff him to the bed. I know this man don't want to be handcuffed because I just know he don't, right? To this day, and I can't really even put myself there, I could see him looking at me saying,

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Don't do that.

• 1:13:21Speaker 00

  If you don't have him, take the, he can't say he did. But I see him looking at my, I'm reading his, so I say, take them off, man, take it off. And they say, you should, I said, take them, take them handcuffs off, you know? Literally real, I've never seen it for real handcuffs in the, in the room. Like he done, you know, like, take them off. And it's a natural reaction, I guess, because something in his throat to go back and try to get, man, Mr. Obama, I do this like four or five times. Put the handcuffs back on. Take the handcuffs off. Just don't even know what to do. I'm like, you know, I tell y'all, listen to the boys in my head. At this time, I don't have no, I'm looking at him, trying to look at him. I'm like, I don't know what to do. And it was just that emotion.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  Something that I never just want to recreate, but that emotion. And eventually, you know, he started losing, obviously, and the nurse came in and did everything they did. And, you know, she comes out and she says, you know, uh, you know, if we keep doing that, he's not going to be with a vegetable, you know? Uh, he won't be able to, you know, cognitive this. And, uh, we already broke a couple of his ribs and I don't care. And, you know, she come out the next time, she said, listen, I lost my father too. I don't want to hear, you know? I knew where she was going. And it's just me, I don't have my mom, you know? So I'm mad at my mom, like, why you ain't come up here, Keisha, it's sleep?

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  And I had to just like deal with that whole thing alone, uh, just of him going from,

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, making that call.

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  Instead of going from zero to sixty, he's like breaking, going from sixty down to zero. You know what I'm saying? And just being a part of that. And so that's why I felt like it was appropriate to align that song with this book. Because I, I, I use a lot of his lessons and some experiences that we shared together in there. And so, I mean, I come up with this idea, I'm like, man, I really like that Luther song. And it make me feel like, you know, me and my dad never danced together, anything like that. But we smoked together, we hung out together, we laughed together. And so I did that song and, uh, my mom was like, my mom, what you trying to do? You know, that, that, that was my husband. Now you trying to make me cry over here and stuff like that? So it's been like, uh, you know, a little, little joke in the house. And then I played it for my kids.

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  Having met my dad, the other two kids did not meet my dad. So like my 10 year old son, like, oh man, you, that's the whole story right there. You know what I mean? So it's just something that I feel like, I feel like it'll do well because it's relatable. But I didn't necessarily do the song for it to like be a club banger or nothing like that. Yeah, that wasn't.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  This is your fourth therapy.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was. I mean, it just flowed, it just flowed straight through. It flowed, the, the, the second verse is, it flows the same way. It just, it just flowed straight through. And, uh, yeah, so it's, the song is, you know, I, I would say considered mine.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Well, it's another thing that, you know, it's like even normalizing how you, you found out about your, I mean, that's a crazy way to find out that your father was dying, you know?

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  That he never, ever fully told you that he was having heart failure and, you know? And so you didn't have time to process, you know? So of course you're going to be like, he was just alive.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, he just told me, we talked.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Fine, it's like, how, how could this happen?

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  What y'all, you know how it is, y'all killed. You know how black folks, I'm gonna sue this off, y'all, they say this hospital ain't, I knew I shouldn't, just everything, man. When it really just be their time to go. And then like, a lot of time, like I, I've lost, so it's, it's, you lose, you lose, you, I've lost people, uh, with that situation. My dad was like the boys don't cry type of dude. Uh, you know, what you crying, just holding back tears, just about, about to pass out, holding back tears around him. And then just like when that happened, man, I just was, everything that was back, I needed windshield wiper. I needed, I literally could not see, I just remember sitting in the car, just be like being like, because he's really like my best friend.

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  I asked my dad questions that I want, I asked him something, because I know he wouldn't judge me, that I wouldn't even like say to a, a friend of mine, you know what I'm saying? So anyway, that's been missing, that happened and I buried, well, he got cremated. But we had his funeral on July 4th, 2012. So it's been a long time.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  July 4th is my oldest daughter's birthday.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  Really? I was in, I was in some church, just blew on the way, I don't even remember how it happened. They say people was, and that, this is the thing, I learned, this man dead, they talking about, yeah, man, uh, he played football, like he played football. But we did, you know, you just be hearing stuff coming in and I'm hearing them people talking. I heard, because he never, he was one of them people that, you know how the daddies was so hard back then? They couldn't really say, they couldn't tell you they was proud. He just bragging to all these other folks. I'm like, this man ain't never told me this stuff. They like, boy, your daddy used to come to the house and, boy, and I'm just sitting there, just like, so that was, that's like, it was, it was an experience that I never, I wouldn't wish that on nobody, but it's inevitable. You know what I'm saying? It was inevitable, it had to happen. And, uh, it made, it definitely made my strong heart.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  We appreciate you sharing it, man, it's a.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Man, you are, oof.

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  I think I got something for y'all though, because it's, it's a thing. I got this book that deals with art and I got the song that I just played. And where is this Ernest around? I might have something for y'all. Because I wanted to leave y'all with something like this before I go.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  So this is art too. And I think I wanted to share this with you guys because Father Day is a piss.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  Oh, dude. Oh, man.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, so. You trying to make me cry. Hey, bruh, they say a therapeutic to get one out here and there. So I think this is dope.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  How'd you get that done?

• 1:19:19Speaker 00

  That is one of our favorite. Obama, she's from LA. Favorite, favorite photographs. I mean, he, he looks like, um, the guy that did centers a little bit with his mustache, uh, Ryan Coogler. That's what he, yeah, he kind of looks, but at the end of the day, I wanted to give you guys something because honestly, I never thought I would be on a platform like this for my book. I never, it never crossed my mind. That's, you're too kind, too kind.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  You are, you are one of one, dude. You really are. I mean, this is one of our favorite pictures with some.

• 1:19:57Speaker 00

  This is one of our favorite pictures. You can see why though, he got everything in it. That, that everything in that. My gosh, I'm gonna be teared up.

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  Thank you for that.

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  You're welcome.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  Man, it's, it's, it's been a gift to spend this time with you.

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  You know, this was a gift, gift to us. It's going to be a gift to everybody who's going to see this. You are a special man. Congratulations on everything, you know? And just keep being you.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  You know, keep sharing your wisdom, uh, you gonna help a lot of people, you know? In another format, you already do that through your music. And, uh, it's just been a real pleasure.

• 1:20:42Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:21:07Speaker 06

  I'm Emma Greed, host of Aspire with Emma Greed, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Greed, available wherever you get your podcasts.