You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson [From the Archives]

Today we're revisiting one of IMO's most beloved episodes. Actress, businesswoman, and mental health advocate Taraji P. Henson joins to talk about setting boundaries, why Michelle didn't attend the inauguration, post-White House therapy, and the glories of the Real Housewives franchise. Plus Craig gets a birthday surprise! Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me internally? My soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me?

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Right?

• 0:28Speaker 00

  Craig Malcolm Robinson.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Michelle Lavon Robinson.

• 0:32Speaker 00

  Not Robinson, Obama.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Obama.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  What, 30 years?

• 0:40Speaker 00

  How's it going?

• 0:41Speaker 02

  It's going well. It's going well. How you doing?

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Doing, doing well.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  I'm so excited.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  But we are here in LA and you doing your thing.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  I'm doing my thing. Staying in an Airbnb again. And I tell you, every time I stay in one, it makes me want to stay in one wherever I go. You know, we're going, we're, the boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so. And rather than staying in a hotel, we're going to get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own cooking and washing of dirty uniforms.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  So I'm really excited.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're just becoming an Airbnb aficionado.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I am, I am.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Quite impressed.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  I absolutely have enjoyed my time because, you know, I was always Mr. Hotel.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  You were.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Points and all that stuff.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  You seem younger than you are. That makes you more up to date than, you know, your age portends. You're living like a young person out there.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages and you were living proof of that.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  I am, I am. Well, how excited are we?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Very, very excited.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Well, folks, we, I'm gonna get right to our guest because we want to bring her out because this is one of those. And I am a huge fan and I've got goosebumps.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Let me just say, my brother has been giddy, little silly giddy all day. And he even wore a whole suit for this one.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  I did.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Because he's usually in jeans. It's like there's usually, we don't know what's going on down there. But you could, but your top matches your pants today. That means we got somebody special here with us.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  See, what happens when you try and clean yourself up? Your sister takes full advantage. But we, our guest today is none other than Taraji P. Henson.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  My girl.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  And she is an Academy Award nominated actor, producer, and number one New York Times bestselling author, mental health advocate, and entrepreneur.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Owning her own stuff.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's starring in Tyler Perry's Straw on Netflix, which I watched the trailer and I was crying on the trailer.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  I know, I know. Taraji, she'll do, she'll do that to you.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  She does it to you. She does it to you.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't wait for that to come out.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  I know, I know. She is also the founder of the Boris L. Henson Foundation, named after her father, which works to enhance access to mental health services within black communities. She has also launched TPH by Taraji, a line of spa-inspired products, and is the strategic advisor for Seven Daughters Moscato. Moscato.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  I got me a bottle.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  I might, I had two bottles. I may let you try one.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Let me try one, I would love that. But without any further ado, Taraji, please come out and join us.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  I love your hair.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Thank you, love yours too.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Oh my goodness.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  It took a while to do mine, so.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Looking good, looking good. Now, the last time I, we saw one another was at the final White House party.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  In the last.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  The last night and.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  It was the last night.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  It was, was it the, was it the very last night or was it one of the last parties? I can't remember.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  So I think it was.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  I think it was, but I just never, I just never forget, I was leaving and I thought it was pretty late.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  It was.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And I'm leaving because I'm tired, my feet hurt, I have on socks.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  And I remember you saying that. Because that was you like, girl, my feet hurt.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  You had socks walking to the car?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yes, because my feet, I danced out of my shoes and Tom Hanks was walking across the floor. I say, he's still partying. I will never forget that.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Well, we are thrilled, beyond thrilled to have you here. Let me, let me just fangirl a little bit because I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you, but we are huge fans.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  And you, oh man, you just bring every part of you to the work that you do. And I will never forget my reaction. And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things, don't want to get pigeonholed into one role. But let me just say, Cookie on Empire. I mean, I got on the phone to people when, when you showed up on screen because I was like, this is a real character.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  I mean, this is like, like I felt all of who Cookie was. And I called people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch Empire. This is a different kind of a series that's coming on. And it was because of your performance.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  And, you know, and then to see the trailer of Straw, which is, you know, the story of black women at the edge of everything and just the trailer alone, as Craig said.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Has, it brings you to tears.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Moving, moving.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  I guess I just want to know, where does all that come from in that little bitty body of yours?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Well, I am trained. I went to Howard University. There's that. But, you know, as an actor, sometimes, you know, sharing a bit of, you know, the character's joy or pain, mine might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in life, you know? It wasn't easy growing up, you know, in the hood or whatever. But, you know, I made it out.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  You know? But, you know, life will throw curveballs at you and it's not always, you know, I know people look at celebrities and they're like, oh, you got it made because you're rich. But like the great guru Biggie Smalls says, more money, more problems. You know, you think your problems go away because you finally made it or whatever. And it's like, no, babe, you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, you know, the training and just being true to the character. And I think as actors, what we do is very spiritual.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth. And so I can't judge that character.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  A lot of times I do, like I judged Cookie at first. I was like, oh my God, she's a whore. But I did, it was hard not to. But the job of the actor is to show the why.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Because there's always a why.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Well, I, you know, I'm a trained athlete, so I'm different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained, it, you know, I never, I never think of that with non-athletes.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  And that is, it's a real skill.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  It is.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  But to, I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen, I feel something emotionally. And I just want to thank you for that because it is a, I mean, just, I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin Button. I'm thinking about Proud Mary. I mean, Proud Mary, well, you know, I still have a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  So that, that, that hit me. You know, I will let my kids watch R-rated movies if you're in them.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  I want to know some of the, the why of Taraji, the real woman. Because you are doing a little bit of everything now. You know, you are not just acting and, and winning awards, but you're building an empire of, of your own.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  Can you talk a little bit about that? Because you just had, you know, a major win personally on the business side.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Gaining more control over your own stuff. Can you talk a bit about your company?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yes, well, TPH, I don't know if a lot of people may or may not know this about me, but I didn't get accepted into Duke Ellington School of Fine Arts in Washington DC. And the next thing, my next passion was cosmetology. I love doing hair and nails and makeup, but I missed, you had to enroll in the ninth grade. I missed it by a year and I just think it was God.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  You know, I wasn't supposed to go down that path, but that's, that's always been a passion of mine. That's how I fed myself in college, you know, because I didn't have money. And so I would do $20 wet sets because I had a hooded dryer out of my dorm room.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  And you went to Howard.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  And I went to Howard. But my first, I started at North Carolina A&T because.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because I really didn't think I could act.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not, I'm not mathematically wired at all.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Me either, girl.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I'm an artist. I am an artist to the bone. And so when I failed pre-calc, my dad was like, that's what you get. Now you get back up here, go to Howard and you enroll and you get back into acting. And that's how I.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Oh, so you were running from acting?

• 10:14Speaker 01

  I ran from it.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I ran from it. I was.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  I thought you were saying your dad.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  No, he won, no, no. He knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I would win an Oscar, you're going to be one of the greatest actors alive. And because I'd been hearing that so much from him when I did not get accepted into Duke Ellington, I couldn't, I didn't know how to take that.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  You know.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Take that failure on the chin.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I just did it at 13. Or what was that, 12? How could that? You believe that. You go, oh, that must mean I can't act.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  You know?

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Well, and having raised my children in Washington, we've done a lot of work with the Duke Ellington School. And to put it in perspective, it's like the Whitney Young, the magnet school that I went to. You know, well-funded school, you know, that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place. So I can imagine you grew up with that being your, you know.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  My North Star. So I just thought that, I just thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard. I felt out of sorts. And then finally, when I got back into the groove and I found my footing, everybody was like, well, you know, you went to Duke Ellington. And I was like, no, I didn't. They didn't accept me.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black daddy.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  Believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  You know, what a blessing to have that man being that wind beneath your wings.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was because, you know, in the day of, you should be a doctor or you need to be a lawyer. He really saw my gift. So, but like I said, I was doing $20 wet sets. So hair and cosmetology has always been in me. And I remember when I first got to Hollywood and I'd started working and I couldn't afford Weebs when I was in college. So when I got to Hollywood, I heard about, you know, women, I lost my edges and I didn't want to lose my edges. And I started working and.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  See, we have that issue too, Craig.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  You see what she did?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  She said, we have that too. And then she looks up at my head.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Well.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  That's what happens. That's what happens.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Maybe if you had found TPH.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Sooner you would have your edges.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, Taraji. I still have to give it to my brother.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  It was perfect timing.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  You know, I'm the older brother. You know that, right?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  She's making up for all the times when you picked on her when she was little, I'm sure.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  But in the spirit of saving our edges.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I just remember I got my first install and I was like, well, this is great for protecting my hair, but how do I get to my hair? How do I take care of my hair?

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Your God-given.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  And so I created this concoction. And I remember going on vacation with a girlfriend of mine and her daughter, they had protective styles and they complained about itchy scalp. But I said, well, use what I use. And I put it together and they came out of the bathroom. It's like, oh, my God, where do I get this? This is amazing. And I was like, give me a minute. And so that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity. And for me, it was about the education of scalp. Because I knew women were getting installs, wearing wigs. But I was like, I don't think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install. So that's when I was like, this is a great way for me to enter into the beauty industry. So that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  And you now own it.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  I own it. I finally, I bought it back. It's mine, it's mine, it's mine. I have a lot of work to do, but I am ready. I'm ready for it because it's mine. I feel like Cookie. I own my company, Lucius.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  There you go, there you go. And, you know, that's where it begins. So now you a businesswoman.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  You adding that on to your plate?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  But you've been doing all that and raising a strong black man. I want to know, how do you manage it all?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  It wasn't easy. It's never easy. You know, as life, you have ups and downs. You have dark days, you have light days, you have gray areas. And for me, it was just learning how to take care of myself. Because as women.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  We take care of so much. And we take care of the family. And a lot of times, we put ourselves last.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  And it took me a while to understand that if I don't pour into myself, I have nothing to give.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  And I've reached those points a lot in my life, trying to do so much. And, you know, I come from the grind, grind, grind. You know, that grinding will kill you. You know? And I would work so hard and then just feel burnt out. You know? And it made me question sometimes, is this even still what I want to do?

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  You know, because of the exhaustion.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Acting.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:29Speaker 02

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• 18:01Speaker 01

  Also, too, having to do so many jobs because the money, the math wasn't mathing.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Oh, gotcha.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  You know? But that's not the case for me.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  And that's not the case for many black actors, I would imagine, right?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  So when you see us working a lot, it's because we kind of have to.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Well, Taraji, what you just said about being burnt out, I hear my sister talk about that. And now, I didn't hear my mom talk about that. But I want to dig deeper into that a bit. Where does that, where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things? Or did you develop that because you just, you're?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Out of necessity.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Out of necessity to be excellent? Because we have to be so much more, we have to be so much better than most to get where we want to be? Or is it innate just in our culture? Because where we have been because of slavery and it was really the black woman who had to protect the family because the black man was getting sold all over the place? Where do you think that comes from, from you? And then I want to hear where it comes from.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I think it's a culmination of all of it. Because there is.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  You know, things that happened in slavery, that's still in our DNA. That's still a part of who we are.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup. Watching my mother do it, watching my grandmother do it, you know.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  It's just what I'm used to.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Unlearning, unlearning that trauma is where I am now. You know, but for so long, it was just, this is what you do.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  You know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and pay the rent for our little apartment, you know. And so I grew up going, that's what you have to do. You gotta work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother, so I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day, and this, like, Marcel was like four years old. I was so tired, I wanted to cry, like, you know, I don't think, I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy. Literally, because, you know, think about when you're exhausted and it's like the baby's crying, oh, can you go get him, honey? There was no honey. I was honey.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  So if I worked 12 hours and I come home, I was still honey. I still, if the baby's sick, I, everything fell on me. You know, and I just remember one day, I just, I wanted to, I was on the sofa and I just wanted to give up. But that's not in me either. You know, I think those thoughts, but then my ancestors go, girl, you better get up.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  You know, and that's the, you know, the, the part of what you said, that you'd never heard mom complain about it. I think that that's part of the, part of the issue.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Part of the trauma.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  You know, when we grew up, our, our, our grandmothers, you know, Grandma Levon, Grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women. All black women had to work.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Our, our mother was fortunate, she didn't work until I went to high school, but that was a choice that she and my father made. Because, so we lived off of one salary and we made huge sacrifices for that because I think my mother understood that if she was gonna be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forego living a good life, that we live in a little bitty apartment and just make ends meet, but that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain because it wasn't what, it, it was just the way life was. And I think that that's part of our trauma too. Because we grew up with women who, who weren't voicing

• 22:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  the pain.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  and the burden. They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  It's okay with you, right?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  You know, we don't articulate as black women our pain because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  And does anyone care?

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Does they care?

• 22:42Speaker 02

  If we knew, I think we would care. If we knew. If we knew.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Or, you know, yeah, and, and we have to ask ourselves, our, the men in our lives is, you know, why wait to be asked? You know, it, it seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining, but we're actually living life out loud, you know? You, you know, you see us carrying these babies, you see us working a job and coming home and managing, getting food on the table and handling doctor's appointments. And this is, you know, if you've got a partner, right? I think some of us feel like, why should we have to ask?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  You know, it seems, it seems apparent. And as black women, sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing. We're socialized to believe from very early on that we don't deserve any better. You know?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Or that this is, this is life for us. It's gonna be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it. You know, I, I did. And, you know, it, it wasn't until, you know, like my son, he's growing up, there's no dad around. I lost my father in 06. His father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who, who do I turn to? You know, and, and then, as you know, young boys, as he's growing up, the rose colored glasses come off and he's starting to see life for a young black man. And that was difficult. And I'm not a black man. So how do I help him maneuver through this? And, you know, I was like, we need help.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And it was time to look for therapy, which I never shunned therapy because my father was a Vietnam vet and he always talked about his struggles openly. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us. And when I couldn't find anyone who looked like us, because now I gotta get my son to open up to someone and he's not gonna feel right.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  If the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the Forrest Lawrence Henson Foundation in honor of my father.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Because I know in our community, we just do not talk about mental health. We don't.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  We do not. Because we are demonized, we are chastised, where it's, it's looked upon as weak, you know, and

• 25:11Speaker 00

  We give it to God.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  We give it to God.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  And that's, that's an important, it's spirituality is an important

• 25:18Speaker 01

  But God gifted humans to be therapists to help other humans. So it go hand in hand. You need both. So I was like, this is a real problem. And we started looking at the numbers and only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to, to go into this career, to even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this. That's when I started the work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself. Like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunctionally for a while. You know, so a lot of the stuff I'm doing now is undoing.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  It's a lot of undoing.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  But it's, I'm, I'm grateful. Because I feel better.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  You know, and then I can help this generation coming behind to not fall into the same, you know, traps that I did and believing the same things that, you know, we just didn't know otherwise to believe.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's why it's important for us at tables like this, for women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenge that, challenges that we face, not because we are complaining, which we don't wanna ever be complaining. But because we need to change, we need to turn that cycle on its head.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  And we have to talk about our stresses openly, you know? And also as black women, we are so easily labeled as angry and bitter. And let me tell you some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced, you know, entering this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign. And just me telling the truth of who we were, you know? You know, just humanizing him as a man, saying he's, you know, he's a great man, but he's not perfect.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  You know, he's got his foibles and his flaws, trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalists said was that I was bitter. I was, I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth about what life is, right? And then you get labeled as angry, you know, because you talk forcefully or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of, of great joy and pride, that the, that the first label they put on us as black women is that we are angry.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  And, you know, the irony is, is like, yeah, I, I, I am probably less light than many of my white female friends. I, I, I see that.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Less light.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Less light.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Not liked.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Light. L I G H T. Because I, I say this a lot. I mean, I see the difference in some of my, my, my white female friends. I see a lightness, an ability to be in the world and see what's going on, but still be

• 28:40Speaker 00

  Not as burdened about it as I think I am.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  You know, I think that what I see happen in the news, you know, the assault on immigration rights, the, you know, the challenges that face our community, the inequality. I think it burns at me in a different way.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Because it affects you.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  It affects your children.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  It affects you.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. So imagine, you know, we wake up every day just carrying that.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  You know, even if it doesn't directly affect me, sometimes I just have to stop reading the paper.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  So that I can, I can stop thinking about all that's wrong.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Sometimes I don't know about Juturaji, I can't stop thinking about it, right?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I have to, I'm not as, you know, I'm not on social media that much. You know, as you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And honestly, social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of scrolling. One minute you're laughing, the next minute you're angry, the next minute you want to cry. That's, that's not even, that's not right.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Something is wrong about that.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  But, you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news. And, or you, you see something disturbing in it. I'm an empath, so I take things on. I stopped watching the news a long time ago.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  I had to because sometimes I feel like, are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good happening out there? So I had to stop to protect my peace.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Well, speaking of taking care of ourselves, and we, we like to think of IMO as sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there yet.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  And in that vein, I'd love to get to our, our listener question from Shante from North Carolina.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  We're not even halfway through the year. And as a black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world and politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life, like career, family, issues at my job, obligations I feel pressured into, and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine you might have been here before. Any advice?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Better learn the word no.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Well, I know, I know this both, this hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Well, you embarked upon an interesting journey to find your peace recently. Can you share some of your, your tools for, for trying to find that peace?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you this, no is my favorite word.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  No. No is, and I found out how powerful no is, especially in this town. This is a town of yes. Yes, men, yes, I'll do it. Yes, whatever you need, just make me a star.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Make me rich, you know? But no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  No, I don't feel like coming to dinner.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  No, I don't want to do that role. I don't, that's, that's, that doesn't serve a purpose for me.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  I know the check is great. Maybe that's someone else's blessing.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no because I know I'm protecting my peace.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  I know I'm doing a good thing because for a while I was the yes girl, the people pleaser, you know? And I, I just couldn't do it anymore because it wasn't servicing me. And I wasn't, I wasn't feeling fulfilled because why am I doing this? I've had to cut people out of my life. It's okay. You weigh me down. You know, I can't carry your load and mine. You know, family members even.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Sorry. And you don't learn that it's unfortunate. You don't learn it until you get older.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  You know, because in your twenties, you just, I'm ready to do it all, even in your thirties still. But as I, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. That doesn't serve me.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  That doesn't make me happy inside. And if I say yes, that person's happy, but then I'm left to carry something that doesn't feel comfortable to me.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. How have you shared this with your young son? And I say young because 30 is still young.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, very young.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Do you encourage him to therapy? Because I'll tell you.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely, he's in therapy.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  You know how black men are with their, that we, we ain't really feeling the therapy thing.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  No, he's not like that at all.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Oh, that's great because it's,

• 33:48Speaker 02

  we need to educate our young black men that therapy is a good thing.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  We go to therapy together. You think of mother-son relationship is easy?

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Without a dad?

• 34:00Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  All relationships need work. You know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know? We get in our little stuff sometimes, but you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  You know, when I hear you talk about the, the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're, you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people, with trying to set boundaries. But I particularly relate to, you know, what you were saying about it takes you a while before you, you know, maybe as a woman, as a black woman, where we feel comfortable saying no. And I was sitting here thinking, well, why is that? And why was that for me? Because this is something that I am working on right now.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  You know, I, I, like you, I have believed in therapy my whole life.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  You know, done couples therapy with my husband. Both my girls are, they believe in therapy. This generation, thankfully, I think our children

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Yes, more open.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  are way more open to it. They understand the importance of self-help and all of that.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  I also sort of realize that, you know, even Michelle Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Right? Because there's always that feeling. I think we practice that striving because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be smarter, faster, work harder because somebody was going to doubt me. Somebody was always, already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or I even tried. So you get in the, and I don't think this is unique to just women of color. I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that, you know, it's enough, it makes us overachievers, but you, you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still,

• 36:23Speaker 00

  I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all that I had done in the world, I still felt a guilt, right? Struggling with like deep guilt that maybe, maybe I needed to do a little bit more. So I'm at this stage in life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time. So what are those terms? And going to therapy, just to work all that out, like what happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Internally, my soul, we, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Right?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that maybe, maybe finally I'm good enough.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  Right? And unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself and then trying to actively practice something different to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing and keep striving. And so practicing no in a very different way intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard because, you know, my decision to skip the inauguration, you know, what people don't realize, or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism. Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason, that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  You know? It's like, while I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me, and it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was, was that, that was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  That was a hard thing for me to do.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  I had to basically trick myself out of it. And it started with not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively, because I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything. I have, I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my team. I don't even want to have a dress ready.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Right? Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  But then you become a shock absorber.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  And that's what women are.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Shock absorbers.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  And that's exhausting. And it's not healthy.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  It is not healthy.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  You've had to be shock absorbers for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family, your loved ones because of where you were sitting in the public eye.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  That's not fair to you. When do you ever get to live for you?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I applaud you. I am, I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  You know, I've been talking to Misha about this and,

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Opting out might be that's a a great prognosis or a great

• 39:56Speaker 02

  suggestion or strategy for for folks who are feeling the way what we're feeling the way

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  We're talking about here.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Because you can't keep pushing through. That's detrimental. That could end very bad. Because you're not paying attention. I mean, I had a girlfriend one time. She had, she was taking on so much. She didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest. Wow. She just disfigured her entire chest doing too much. I mean, physically, it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me? You know, I have to check out. I'm sorry, everyone. I have to check out for my own safety and sanity. Yeah, yeah. And it's a hard thing to do, but you must. You must.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  I don't know if that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day at school, my bag was in the trunk. And she was driving me down south. Right, and I Now you understand. I totally get it. I understand that woman needed a break. And I was a lot as a kid. I was very rambunctious, probably undiagnosed ADHD. But here we are. Found a way to turn living

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, but Like you're saying, you're just learning. I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Shante, you will get this message from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself in spite of making people happy. At some point, you have to make yourself happy. Yeah, yeah. It's that simple.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know, because this is the habit. It's like, maybe if I'm maybe I'm still working on being able to do things just solely for myself and being okay with that. I'm still working on it.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Through therapy and conversations like this and talking to my friends. But I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters. Right? So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26 to talk to them about my menopause brain. I'm like, how old are they?

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Is what he's referring to.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  I want them to start practicing now the art of saying no.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Because I see it in them, you know, pleasing, excelling, not wanting to take anything for granted, always showing gratitude, right? Feeling like they're enough right now, right? It's a practice.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  It is.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Right? It's a muscle that you have to build. Because if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it. And I think we suffered because it's almost like we are, we just, we started training late in life to build that muscle, right? I am just now starting to build it, right?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  I want our daughters, I want the young women out there. And I, you know, I know we're talking about women of color, but we're talking about women and we're talking about all people

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and relate to our why as Black women. But I don't, I don't presume that other people aren't dealing with these same struggles.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Right? So I want my girls to start practicing different strategies for saying no, right? I don't want them to because if I'm showing up at this stage in my life and they are seeing me still wonder whether I deserve to say no, what does that teach them? If I, after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep, I still have to show people that I love my country, that I'm doing the right thing, that I'm always setting, going high all the time, even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction, right?

• 44:10Speaker 00

  All I'm doing is keeping that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmothers set for us. So I'm trying to teach them, just like, you know, Shante, you got to start practicing your no so you build that muscle.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  The sooner the better.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  The sooner the better. And here's the thing. What I've realized in practicing no a little bit, people can handle no.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  They really can. They have no choice. They have no choice, really.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  And we're not all that important, you know? The world doesn't stop spinning. Because I said no to your event. They usually just move on to the next thing.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  And so, you know, life goes on. And if we, if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody, we set it down, somebody will pick it up.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  You know, somebody will pick it up.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I just celebrated, we, my family just celebrated my grandmother's 101 birthday.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Congratulations.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Thank you. And this woman who raised eight of her own children, one niece, raised nine children, was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away. I see her living her life finally. You know what I mean? And I think that's why she's still around.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  When you say, what's that look like at 101?

• 45:37Speaker 01

  She, okay, so, well, she's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out here in LA. She's traveled. She's been on cruises. And she not only, she prepares for the next day. Not only does she look forward to the next day, she prepares for it. And she was like, what y'all gonna do for my birthday?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  She loves to celebrate it. She loves to bring people together and to have a good time. I see her living for herself finally. You know, she gets, it's literally about what she wants to do.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  And I know that's why she's still here. Yeah. It's like a second verse. Yeah.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  And we don't want to have to wait till we're 100

• 46:31Speaker 01

  No, we don't.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  to do that. Or 61 to do it.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, or 55.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Shante, I don't know how old you are, but you better start saying no.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  I love that. So now, let's think back to, so what you know now, you go back to the younger, your younger selves. Besides just saying, you got to say no earlier, what are you telling your younger self so that you can, you can start this work earlier?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I wish I had known about therapy younger.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  I didn't find that until late 40s, 50s.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I didn't. I wish I had known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew, but not only kind of, I didn't know, but I couldn't afford it. Yeah, really. Couldn't afford it.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help Shante with or that have helped you outside of saying no?

• 47:29Speaker 00

  I heard about, that I thought was about you, Taraji, is that you play a lot. Tell us about, you got a playroom?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I have a playroom. I always, okay.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  So when I grew up, my mom couldn't afford a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs? You would get the big series. We would go in, rip pages, circle. Exactly. And so I always

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Bathroom reading for us.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I couldn't wait. I loved when we got those big catalogs. And I would go in there and I would circle. And I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get, but you're going to be successful. And when you do, make sure you have your little girls room. That's what I used to call it.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  And in that room was going to be all the things that my heart desired. You know, back then, it was dolls and the things in the toy book. But as I got older, it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have doll head. I have prosthetic hands where I practiced doing nails. And during the pandemic, they called me the quarantine queen because I was learning, teaching myself how to do nails. I was teaching myself how to cut and color hair. And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for yourself.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  For myself. People think it's a little creepy because all the doll heads are looking at you.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  But it's my happy place.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  It makes sense. It makes sense.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you. We don't know what Shante's situation is, but how can we as men help you all with this process?

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Remember I said at the convention, "Do something."

• 49:31Speaker 02

  See, this is what I got to do.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, she has a point.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Do something. Okay, any suggestions, my dear? Just a couple.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Do something, something anything.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Because we as guys are trying to help, but we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy, right? And we're trying to thug our way through this by, "I'm here for you, but I don't know what to do."

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Sometimes just saying that. Literally, sometimes just saying that because I feel seen, okay?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way, thugging your way through things. You're going, "You know what? I see you're in distress. I just don't know how to help." Then that allows me to go, "This is how you can help."

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Open dialogue.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  And you know what I also want? You know, if you're not going to therapy, then I want you to find the place where you're gonna keep growing too.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  That, yes.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  And you can't grow in your own mind alone, right? So if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always fix my struggle, but I would want the men in their lives to take a look at themselves too.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Because if we're doing all this work as women, figuring it out, going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma, then you gotta be doing the same thing too. Because it's not just me, it's both of us. It's all of us. So I would say to the men, you know, do the work too. And find the way, find the way, do the work in the way that you can do it. And if you can't go to therapy because you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Somebody.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Talk to each other. That would be something if that helps. And then, you know, throw a load of laundry in it, you know?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Make breakfast.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  You know.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I'm not, okay, if it's not you, then it doesn't apply.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  It doesn't apply, but for the brothers out there.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  He did say the Airbnb, he washed the dirty uniforms. I heard him say that.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Thank you. It's nice of you to remember that. No, this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable and so authentic with this, so.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  And men also can be vulnerable as well.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Be vulnerable, don't thug your way through everything. And I think we have to talk, we have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations. And talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  And the help you need.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate our pain.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  And not be afraid to say we're hurting, that this is hard, that I'm scared, that I'm tired, you know? And then, you know, we want the men in our lives to, you know, give us a safe place to land when we do that, right?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just, listen, don't make us feel like we're crazy, you know?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Right, right. No, I get it.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  So this has been some heavy stuff. I would like to know, how do you spend your leisure time? Like, what does Taraji P. Henson do when she?

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Are you in your toy room?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  I'm in the toy room.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  When you're not in the toy room? You watch anything? Are you reading anything? What are you doing?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I enjoy, I just got a new puppy. Well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't chase Buddha around. He's a little French Bulldog.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And so I got him a friend, Zen, Buddha and Zen. And so right now, that's what occupies my time.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  And puppy house is Zen.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  He's four months. And Buddha is two. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that and, you know, family time. And I love going to visit with fam. Like I said, I just came back. I have lots of cousins and, you know, that always lifts my spirits and it gives me the motivation I need to keep going, you know, my family. Because I just love my family. I come from a family where, as cousins, we all used to sleep on the pallet. Remember that, the blankets, before the blow up mattresses? We had big blankets on the floor. And so we're really close.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  So I'm saying that right now because that's what's brought me this joy that I have, I'm carrying right now because I just came back.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  From seeing them, so.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  And a little birdie tells me that you are a Real Housewives fan. Is that correct? Did I get that?

• 54:44Speaker 01

  I do, I watch, I watch. Unscripted is good.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  I love Unscripted, too.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Because it makes you forget about your problems.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  You're like, ooh, they're going through that.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. It's just like, ooh, they did not.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  What, girl? No, she did.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  You know, but it's my little secret pleasure. We have our production company, Higher Ground. And a lot of people think that it's all presidential and we're gonna do documentaries. And we just came out with Unscripted Later Daters where we.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting. I like that.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we are, it's a show that couples find, finds love matches for aspirational people over 50, people who look like us.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  You know, who are looking for love.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  It's got this great dating coach, this young woman, Logan Urie. And you just sort of go along that journey. We are working, I'm not trying to pump the show, but I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing Unscripted. But it's like, well, that's my taste, right? I mean, I love those kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me, that I love watching regular.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Human connection.

• 56:14Speaker 00

  Real interaction, although my brother says that Unscripted isn't real. You know, that Real Housewives ain't real, they're acting. And we don't even care.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  We don't care. It's good TV.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  The most intellectual women that I know, my sister, my wife, my daughter, now you, all watch this stuff. And I am shocked still. I'm always shocked.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  But I always say, you know, the NBA is like the real, you know, that's reality.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  But that's reality TV now.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  But it's still drama. There's drama.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  There's a lot of drama.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is real too. These are real situations.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  I think people manufacture beef.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Well, you don't know.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  They manufacture beef.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  It's produced so you can have an actual beginning, middle, and end. It has to have some kind of structure, otherwise it's just chaos. So, but at the end of the day, those are real issues.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  It feels like chaos. It feels like chaos.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Because there's chaos in friendships. There's chaos in life. There's friction. So what's your favorite franchise?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  My favorite? Oh, I'm kind of.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  You watch a little bit of all of them?

• 57:29Speaker 01

  I watch a little bit of all.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  So do I, girl!

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Love and hip hop, I watch.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Oh, I do too.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  Mama D? Oh, child.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Oh, child.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Because I know a Mama D. Everybody knows a Mama D.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  They should do.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  If you don't have one in your family, you got a Mama D.

• 57:51Speaker 00

  Then you lying.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  You are lying.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  You're just not recognizing Mama D.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  I have a Mama D in my family. I ain't gonna say who, but.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  But I'm like that. I tell my husband, I was like, you watch golf?

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  I watch unscripted.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  And it brings me, I don't know. It just settles me down.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  And you get to talk. And I guess.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  The blackness in us, the call and response.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Oh, because we were, I would've said.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  I would've.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Right. I would've, should've, if that was me, uh-uh, no.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  Like.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Talking to the TV.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  While I'm taking my makeup off. Like, girl, ooh, I would've. I swear to God.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Let me be at that dinner.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Okay, I brought this on myself here. I brought it on myself.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  But you made a connection because I would've never thought she would say love.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Well, before we, before we end up, and this has been just tremendous. And I want to thank you. But before we end up, I'd like to, to give Shante, just, I want to recap the strategies because we, we hit on some good stuff.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  The saying no and the find some therapy somewhere.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  And your points, your many points, but.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Be, be okay with disappointing people. You know? Practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  And that, that was the one that really stood out to me is you're not just going to automatically feel help, happy once you say no. You've got to keep working, but, you know.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  And there will, as I've discovered, there will be backlash.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  To your no.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  You know?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  But, but like you said.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  And the guilt that comes with, because you've been saying yes when I'm like, did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  But, but both of you all said, but after you learn to say no, you realize the world keeps turning.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  So, so once you feel, start to feel comfortable saying no, things are going to re, reconfigure. And then finally, and this is just on my, my mental list of the things that I, I thought were really good outside of getting your men to go ahead and getting therapy was the, I liked your, the, the rejiggering your neurons in your brain.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  You got to practice different messages to yourself.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Because we have been raised with a different set of messages and that gets imprinted in you in some real ways, just like trauma and pain. All of that is in our systems, right? And it becomes a loop, a negative loop.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  That we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from my own peace sometimes is me.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Yes. Most of us.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  Most of us. It's, it's, it's me practicing old messages. And so knowing that I have to affirmatively work at telling myself different things is, it's a real practice.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  At 61 years old, to reshape the way that I operate in the world has to be mindful, intentional, and, and, and done frequently.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it takes work. It just doesn't go, oh, I did it today.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  I'm the master. No. Some days are easier than others.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Taraji, thank you.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  So much. You are amazing. I love you. I'm so proud of you.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  You are doing it. And just know you got two fans, a whole Airbnb full of fans.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.