The Bananas in Pyjamas’ doomed trip to Moscow

In 1998, the Bananas in Pyjamas visited Moscow as part of a promotional tour. Things did not go to plan. Today, Eric Campbell, the ABC’s Russia correspondent at the time, joins Matt to try to piece together what really happened. Eric also talks about meeting Boris Yeltsin in a broom cupboard, the changing face of Russian media, and why Russian politicians took aim at Peppa Pig. Follow If You're Listening on the ABC Listen app https://radio.abc.net.au/help/apps. Check out our series on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@IfYoureListeningABC

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  Hi, it's Sam Hawley from ABC News Daily, the podcast that brings you one big story affecting your world each weekday in just 15 minutes.

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  G'day, Matt Bevan here. This is if you're listening. A few weeks ago, in our episode on the bizarre things Vladimir Putin is doing to avoid death and aging, you would have heard a familiar voice.

• 0:57Speaker 04

  He's not the same figure who once paraded shirtless to prove his masculine strength against weak Western rivals.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  The unmistakable wry delivery of former ABC foreign correspondent Eric Campbell is a regular part of our show. Last time I spoke with Eric here, we talked about an incredible report he did in Taiwan that showed extraordinary commitment to the craft.

• 1:19Speaker 04

  It rather hurts. I think probably 2.5 kilos is my limit at this early stage.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  As well as other highlights from his reporting on Taiwan and China over the decades. But today he's back to talk about his time as the ABC's correspondent in Russia from 1996 to 2000, including a truly unbelievable story we've been looking into involving two other ABC icons who ran into some serious trouble in Moscow. Fun story, but it's one that Eric actually only knows part of. We've done some digging and we'll piece it together with him. Eric, welcome back.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  You landed in Moscow in 1996. What was it like to be a foreign journalist reporting from Moscow at the time?

• 2:11Speaker 04

  It was absolutely amazing because I'd grown up watching, you know, James Bond movies about the Soviet Union. To actually find myself living in Moscow was stunning. I was thinking, how lucky am I? And also in 96, it was still very Soviet. You know, people still wore furry hats. The cars were all old Russian gileys and ladders. The streets were disgusting and the snow turned to slush. There was nowhere in the entire Moscow region to buy a decent coffee. But it was so much fun because it was so free. This formerly, you know, totalitarian country, all the rules had fallen apart. You could do whatever you wanted as a journalist. So every couple of weeks I'd go and say, as the first Western correspondent to see this,

• 2:56Speaker 04

  they didn't give a rat's what I was doing. Back then they had bigger things to worry about. Westerners were kind of allowed to just do their thing.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  And Western media was coming into the country as well. And this is the story that you talked about in 1998. Let's have a listen to what you said at the time.

• 3:12Speaker 05

  From the coal mines of the Arctic to the far reaches of Siberia, Russia is facing a cultural invasion unlike anything it's seen before.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  Oh my goodness, I so wasn't expecting what just happened there. You know, you were looking at pictures of dreary Russians walking through cold, frozen Moscow streets. And then suddenly I'm looking at B1 and B2, the Bananas in Pajamas.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  B1 and B2, yes.

• 3:41Speaker 06

  Are you thinking what I'm thinking, B1? I think I am B2.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Why are we looking at B1 and B2 here? Why were B1 and B2 in Russia and speaking Russian?

• 3:52Speaker 04

  Well, in the Soviet times, television was very much a state-controlled affair and you would see what they deemed to be appropriate. But after, you know, the end of communism, people were just getting stuff from everywhere. And at the time, it may be hard to imagine now, but Bananas in Pajamas was the bluie of its time. In every country in the world, it was fabulously popular with anyone under the age of four, for reasons only people under the age of four can understand. But I once filmed the parade celebrating 10 years of the reunification of East and West Berlin, and it was led by B1 and B2.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  And pirate copies of Bananas in Pajamas have been circulating around Russia for years. And a friend of mine, an Australian who had started a business to import Australian television programmes, had got the rights to Bananas in Pajamas and sold them to Russian television. And the ABC sent over two banana suits to publicise it.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Bananas in Pajamas have crossed the former Iron Curtain to become the hit programme for Russian children. Broadcast to a potential audience of 180 million people, it's a new success story for Australia's balance of payments. Bananas are just part of a bounty of Australian television that's taken root across the Russian Federation. From steamy soap operas to period dramas to high school heartbreaks.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Okay, I just need to pause it there because that is the most bizarre image I've ever seen. It's Eric standing in Red Square in front of the fabulous and famous domes of St Basil's Cathedral with B1 and B2, walking around in the background behind him as though,

• 5:33Speaker 03

  as though they just happened to be there while you were doing the report.

• 5:35Speaker 04

  Yes, I thought, well, let's take them up to Red Square, the most iconic part of Moscow, which would be visually appropriate. And also they'd be guaranteed to be arrested because even though Russia had failed, its dictatorship had fallen apart, it still had this useless army of FSB officers and security personnel hovering around, scratching their underpants and just doing nothing. So of course we walk into Red Square and immediately we're pounced on by an army of people in bad suits with bad haircuts and all very good television.

• 6:06Speaker 05

  Just why large bananas are striking such a chord remains as mysterious as ever. But it's clear Russian children feel the same appeal as in the West. The same is not true of Russian security forces. At this visit to Red Square, both B1 and B2 were nearly arrested.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  I've been watching the reports that you and other ABC correspondents did from Lenin's tomb around that time in the 1990s. And there are like goose-stepping soldiers doing changing of the guard in front of the tomb and that kind of thing, like it was being guarded like Buckingham Palaces. It's a very strange sort of a ceremonial guard that they had there protecting Vladimir Lenin. So yes, I imagine that you would have stood out at it and they would have showed you a bit of interest.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  Yes, they pounced, they pounced. But fortunately, because so many children were already aware of Bananas in Pajamas, a group of children came running up singing Bananas the Pajami. And, you know, we explained what it was and they had kids and they sort of let us go. So B1 and B2 escaped unscathed.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Australia may be beaming into the living rooms of Russia, but cultural understanding still has a long way to go. Eric Campbell, ABC News, Moscow.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  So there's children swapping the bananas there in Red Square. To drill down on this, just, you know, I don't want to spoil the magic of the bananas. But it wasn't the actual B1 and B2 actors inside the suits, was it?

• 7:32Speaker 04

  No, it was Russians dressed up as bananas.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Okay, so you had a couple of local Russians.

• 7:38Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  In the B1 and B2 costume.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Getting a much sought-after gig, yes.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Okey dokey. Now, the thing is, you know, obviously you had a bit of a tussle with the Red Square Guards at the time. But then there was a little bit of drama that happened after this. Let's have a listen to this.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  They were stolen and there was a ransom note for 100,000 Australian dollars for the return of the suits.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  Legend, and I use that term explicitly, legend has it that they were stolen during a promotional trip to Moscow by the mafia and ransomed for as much as $100,000. The outfits were never recovered and Steve Price doesn't believe a word of this. Okay, hang on. So that report from Channel 10 is saying that the mafia somehow kidnapped B1 and B2 or the suits and held them for ransom. Explain exactly what happened here, Eric.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  I don't know anything about a ransom, but I do know that B1 and B2 were never found.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  But it wasn't the mafia. Mafia was a sort of generic term in those days for bandits. It wasn't until much later that the mafia became the system of government in Russia under the boss of bosses Vladimir Putin. And these days, Jesse Verlman was a crook because he had to to survive.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  My producer Adair has been doing a bit of investigation into this story and has been doing some calls around the ABC to try and figure out exactly what, where this story about the ransom came from. And she's tracked down Graham Grasby, who was the head of ABC Licensing at the time. He was responsible for the international marketing and commercial licensing of the Bananas in Pajamas. The costumes were being sent around Eastern Europe to try and promote the Bananas in Pajamas as a TV show that Eastern Europe and that Russia could pick up on. Adair called him up and she's given me his account of what happened. She says, "After a photo shoot in Red Square with the costumes, the costumes were taken to the office of the ABC's TV distributor

• 9:43Speaker 03

  while Eric and I headed off to Friday after-work drinks at the Australian Embassy. The plan was to leave the Bananas in Pajamas costumes in Russia with the ABC's television distributor, so the local licensing agent and distributor could use them in future to promote the Bananas in Pajamas show. The next morning, I woke up to a phone call from the ABC's TV distributor's Russian business partner who told me that the banana costumes had been stolen and whoever had them was asking for a ransom to be paid for their return."

• 10:13Speaker 04

  I do hope it was never paid because that was a bluff. That was a scam.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Okay, so the rest of what he told Adair, he didn't agree to be interviewed, but he was happy to give Adair all the details. So he called his boss at the ABC in Sydney to ask what exactly they should do about this situation. He asked how much it would cost to replace the costumes. And it turns out the costumes were worth $20,000, $10,000 per suit, $20,000 together.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  My God. No idea.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  I know. Clearly, the ABC budget for this sort of thing was significantly higher in the 90s than it is these days. The idea of the ABC sending two $10,000 banana suits to Russia for promotional purposes and leaving them there. And Graham was told that he had authorisation to offer that amount for getting the suits back.

• 11:08Speaker 04

  That never came across my desk. I was sort of cut out after the initial filming.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  This is the sort of thing, Eric, that sort of happens behind you and I. I didn't realise that management was involved in ransom negotiations.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  That's why they get the big chairs and the harbour views, because they know what they're doing.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Okay. The rest of the story is that Graham rang the business partner in Russia and told him that the ABC was prepared to pay $20,000 for the safe return of the costumes. He responded that that wasn't enough and that whoever had the costumes wanted more money. Graham then called Sydney to figure out exactly what he should do from this point. Sydney and he agreed that there was no point in offering any more than what it would cost to replace the costumes. And so the Russian business partner was advised that the ABC was not prepared to increase the offer.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  He should have opened with 1,000.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, perhaps.

• 12:02Speaker 04

  But if brilliant bingo was stolen, that would have been a much bigger issue, I think.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  That's true. That's true. Graham was due to depart Moscow that day. He said that he was quite happy to leave Moscow because he was not particularly comfortable to be in a place where suited character costumes were stolen and held for ransom. He said that there wasn't any meetings with Russian mobsters, there was no bag full of cash, and that he has not been back to Moscow since.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, I probably should have a keen memory of the details of all this, but this was just another day back then. It wasn't anything particularly out of the ordinary. Now, the true story, and I know because I was at the centre of it, was that my friend who was selling Australian programmes to Russian television had a falling out with his Russian business partner who took the suits and wouldn't give them back.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  That's incredible. So the Russian business partner wasn't passing Graham's offers on to some mystery third-party thief. He was the kidnapper. What a wild story.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  I should emphasise, I did do serious political stories as well.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  This was obviously, as you say, just another day for you in Russia. The other strange chapter that you were in Russia for was the end of Boris Yeltsin's leadership. For much of your posting, nobody knew how well the president was.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Or if he was alive. There was no consensus on whether he'd actually kicked the bucket or not.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Okay. How did that come about? How infrequently did you see him?

• 13:27Speaker 04

  Well, you'd never actually see him. Occasionally, the Kremlin would put out statements that he was too busy to meet Helmut Kohl because he was out hunting bears or something. And they once put him on a snowmobile to show how, you know, active and virile he still was. Thing is, you didn't see him start the snowmobile or stop the snowmobile. It was like a weekend of Bernie's, snowmobile passing through a frame, without any clear idea of what happened to it, how it stopped, or what it banged into. But, look, a couple of times, say, when Clinton visited, he would have to come out. And it was kind of weird. You'd see, yes, he is alive, but didn't seem to be all there. And a couple of times, when he just turned his back and started facing the back of the room, and Clinton had to

• 14:10Speaker 04

  turn him around, and it was just sad. For, it was months and months and months, no one was quite sure who was running the country, if anyone. But I think that's one of the reasons why people were so relieved when Putin came in. Because even though he was this horrible little bureaucrat, he seemed sober, strong, young, virile, and they thought at least we have a strong leader back in charge. But, oh, God, some people must yearn for the days of Yeltsin, this lovable old duffer, snowmobile-riding bear hunter.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Compared to what they have now.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  My favourite Yeltsin story is, of course, the story about him in Washington. Do you know the story about him in Washington looking for pizza?

• 14:51Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Okay. So this is according to a book by Taylor Branch, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. Basically, this is a story that Bill Clinton relayed to him, that Yeltsin's late-night drinking nearly caused an international incident during one of Yeltsin's visits to Washington in 1995, after Yeltsin was found near the White House late at night, out in the world, out on the streets of Washington, in his underwear, not fully dressed.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  And apparently asking people around him where he could find some pizza to eat. And the Secret Service basically grabbed him, bundled him up and returned him to the Russian Embassy and handed him back over to the FSB and just said, I believe this is yours. And they put him back to bed. And this is a story that Bill Clinton likes to tell people. But yes, just such an incredibly different

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  thing to Vladimir Putin, who, despite all of his faults, can sit on live television for four hours answering telephone questions from Russians, you know?

• 15:57Speaker 04

  If it is in fact Putin and not one of his doubles, but that's another story.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  It is.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  I was only face-to-face with Yeltsin once, when he visited the southern city of Samara, and, strange enough, we were invited to come around and cover his tour of a factory. So every foreign journalist in Moscow went down, bringing their ladders so the camera could climb up behind the crowd to film and everything. And there was this mass of people following him around a factory as he walked aimlessly, not following the tour, but just walking from one point to another as ladders were toppling over and crowds were falling into each other. And I actually stepped away from this madness and stepped into a broom cupboard. And to my shock, about 10 seconds later, Yeltsin walked into the broom cupboard and saw me, and we looked at each other. And he was as startled as I was. And I was

• 16:43Speaker 04

  about to say, Boris Gagarinovich, may I ask you about your current health, etc., when FSB people came and just, you know, shepherded him out of the way and gave me a filthy look. And that was as close as I got to him. But I did notice, which I hadn't noticed before, he was missing two fingers on his hand.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  What?

• 16:58Speaker 04

  And I looked it up. And when he was a child, he picked up a grenade left over from the war and it blew up and blew off a couple of his fingers.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  Oh, there you are.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  But that was my only up-close-and-personal experience with, you know, the first saviour of democracy, temporary as it was.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Your posting in Moscow was between 1996 and 2000. Eventually, the ABC shut down our Moscow bureau.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  But I did go back to Russia many times after that, until they stopped giving me visas.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Well, they stopped giving you visas. And in fact, in 2023, at the beginning of the full-scale war between Russia and Ukraine after the invasion, the Russians published a list of sanctioned Australians.

• 17:34Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  And you were on that list?

• 17:36Speaker 04

  I was, with Ita Butros, Andrew Bolt, and Gina Reinhardt, a list which I never imagined I would be on.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, illustrious company. Was that a surprise to you when you found yourself on that list?

• 17:48Speaker 04

  It was, because I'd been doing endless stories about Putin, and none of them terribly complimentary. I mean, it was all very factual, but the fact is, he does horrible things and he kills people. And so I was just reporting that. But eventually, they caught up with me. They didn't seem to mind when I was a full-time correspondent there, but eventually, over the years, they got a bit more serious about monitoring journalists and took it all a bit more personally. And some hack in the embassy here decided to add my name to this, you know, bizarre list. I don't know what got Ita Butros on the list, but...

• 18:15Speaker 03

  No. To be honest, I was slightly annoyed that I wasn't on that list.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  Well, were they listening?

• 18:20Speaker 03

  Clearly they weren't.

• 18:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you should have been on. Anyone should have been on. It was you.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  There was a Guardian story at the time, making fun of me for apparently not being important enough to be on that list, which was very nice.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  You, after you were sanctioned, continued to report on Russia and on Russian media, and you went to Latvia to meet with exiled Russian journalists. What did you learn when you spoke to them in Latvia?

• 18:41Speaker 04

  Well, there are good people, you know, who are fighting the system as hard as they can. But it's very hard inside Russia, and you really do have to turn yourself into an exile to continue to fight from abroad. And the question of that is, A, can you ever go back? And B, are you having any effect when you're abroad? But they were doing their best. And, yeah, to many Russians, Putin is as appalling as many in the West find him, and the Ukraine war is as criminal, and they still cling to hope that things may get better.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because Russia is a country where the people there tend to actually be quite engaged in media.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Television news in particular is extremely well patronised by Russian people. They watch television news a lot, and there's a lot of it. In that kind of environment, yeah, what kind of success can these people who are outside of Russia and don't have access to Russian TV broadcast antennas have, on the opinion of Putin and Russia?

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Well, at the time, when I was in Latvia, they still had surprising reach through YouTube and through Telegram. Novaya Gazeta, the last independent newspaper, was still publishing on Telegram to millions of readers. YouTube was the most popular source of information for Russians. You know, TV Rain, the last independent TV station, was still broadcasting again to millions of people. But since then, the Kremlin has squeezed these media so much, they banned Facebook, they've put all sorts of algorithms in to slow down Telegram and to block it. They've tried to replace YouTube with a different format, and it's now even a bit dangerous to be using YouTube to follow these things. So, I mean, they're fighting a very hard battle now. And, you know, when I ask them, when do you think

• 20:21Speaker 04

  you'll go back to Russia? They're all saying, a couple of years. Well, that was a few years back.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  I don't think they're ever going back.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  Russia, in the meantime, has banned Peppa Pig.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Ah, yes.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  I don't know whether Bananas and Pajamas is still being broadcast on Russian television, but Peppa Pig isn't.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  No.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  What's that about?

• 20:37Speaker 04

  Well, as you know, because Putin told us all, in the West, we don't have mother and Father, we don't have men and women, we have fourteen different genders.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  And you can't say mother or father, you have to say parent one, parent two, parent three. You know, we all know it's true, you know, just Putin finally had the guts to come out and say it. So the Duma, which is Russia's parliament, which is basically a giant ventriloquist dummy for the Kremlin. They started parroting the same things and they talked about one of the most popular children's shows on YouTube back then. Peppa Pig and they highlighted an episode of Peppa Pig. Where they're all talking about their parents and a polar bear talked about my mummy and my mummy. And they showed two polar bears who were the same sex. And this was Peppa Pig being a little bit inclusive and showing the kiddies that, you know. If you come from a different family, you shouldn't feel different, you know.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  Which was obviously part of the Nazi satanic plot in the West to undermine.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  Morals in Russia, stop them reproducing soldiers to fight in Ukraine. So, yeah, I mean, they spotted it and good on them, they picked it.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yes, yes. Thank goodness that the Russians have got the stones to stand up to. To the writers of Peppa Pig. I want to ask you this lastly, a couple of weeks ago, Tucker Carlson, the very influential American. Right wing, former Fox News broadcaster, who is now spreading his opinions on various social media networks. Did this interview with Jacob Rees-Mogg?

• 22:08Speaker 04

  I saw it.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  Yes, I thought you might have. One of the things that he said was this.

• 22:14Speaker 06

  The government of the United Kingdom is punishing and prohibiting. People and ideas it doesn't like. Russia is not doing that. So how is.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  What?

• 22:27Speaker 06

  To you.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  You can't say, well, but in Russia, it's doing it in spades. It's beating people up, it's arresting them, it's murdering them.

• 22:33Speaker 06

  Russia has put fewer people in jail in the last year for.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  Where they just.

• 22:39Speaker 06

  Social media posts than the UK has.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  They just accidentally fall out of windows in Russia.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Jacob Rees-Mogg's reaction to this is one for the history books, just an extraordinary amount of confusion from Jacob Rees-Mogg. What do you think is going on here? Do you think that Tucker Carlson, you know, there's a lot of discussion about whether Tucker Carlson is. You know, benefiting in some way from Russian influence operations or he's, he's getting money from Russia or that kind of thing. Or do you think it's more along the lines of he just agrees with the Putin spread ethos of. If you can't say mean things about LGBT people, then you don't really have free speech.

• 23:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, or, or is it just that he doesn't really believe anything, but he's a, you know, performing clown who does whatever he will to get a good audience. I mean, he was, you know, taken around Moscow to some, you know, nice restaurants and supermarkets and marveled at the. The bounty and the cheap prices and everything is rather like the lefties who managed to be toured through Ukraine by Stalin. Who completely failed to notice the famine. No, that's what Lenin called useful idiots. They've been making use of them for a long, long time.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Yes. What better place to finish this than to finish it with a quote from Vladimir Lenin? Fantastic. Uh, Eric, thank you very much for coming on and talking to us about this.

• 23:57Speaker 04

  If only I could go back there.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  One day, you and I.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  With all the exiles.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  One day, I'm sure we'll be able to go back to Red Square and we'll take some banana suits and.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Take Bluey and Bingo.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Bluey and Bingo and have their master out in the back of a report in Red Square. I'll hold you to that if it's ever possible, Eric. Thank you very much for coming on. Thank you.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Israelis are heading to the polls today in a closely watched election. One question which has been looming over the campaign is why more than three years on. There has still been no state commission of inquiry into the events of October 7th, 2023. With opposition leaders promising to set one up as one of their first acts in government. In recent weeks, a stream of reports saying that Benjamin Netanyahu was warned before the attack on that day. Has brought the issue into sharper focus. On Thursday, we're looking into what a potential inquiry might examine. And whether the attack could have been prevented. We're also going to do another Q and A in a few weeks.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  This one will be about the US midterms and very excitingly, it will be live streamed on our brand new YouTube channel. So please send in your questions, preferably in voice note form to if you're listening at abc.net.au. And subscribe to our YouTube channel so you'll be the first to know when we're going live. I'll catch you on Thursday.