Pod Insights If You're Listening What it takes to put a question to Trump About this episode We've been looking into the remarkable amount of money Donald Trump is making in his second term, so today Matt is sitting down with a man who asked the president about it directly. ABC's Americas editor John Lyons takes Matt behind the scenes of the exchange that made headlines, revealing what it takes to ask the most powerful man in the world a question.
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0:46 Speaker 02 G'day, Matt Bevan here, this is If You're Listening. On Thursday, we dug into the eye-watering amount of money Donald Trump is making in his second term. Today, I wanted to catch up with a man who has asked the president about this directly in this incredible moment.
1:02 Speaker 03 It is inappropriate, President Trump, that a president in office should be engaged in so much business activity.
1:09 Speaker 02 ABC America's editor, John Lyons, spent months investigating Trump's money for the Four Corners episode, chasing Trump's billions.
1:16 Speaker 03 In my opinion, you are hurting Australia very much right now. And they want to get along with me.
1:21 Speaker 02 Now that his financial disclosures have given us our clearest picture yet of how much the president is really making, it felt like a good time to check back in with John. John, welcome back to If You're Listening.
1:31 Speaker 04 Thank you, mate.
1:41 Speaker 02 In the olden days, when we talked about sort of payments being made to the president, we talked about thousands of dollars. But now we're really talking about billions of dollars being disclosed that are flowing into the president's pockets. When you saw these disclosure forms that were released at the end of June this year, did they surprise you in terms of the magnitude of the amount of money Donald Trump is making in office?
2:06 Speaker 04 No, they didn't surprise me at all. Part of that Four Corners programme, we looked at all available information, published information, public records, to try to get a sense of President Trump's wealth. The huge boost in Donald Trump's personal wealth has come from crypto. And that's where the Trump wealth has gone, from extremely rich to incredibly rich, to numbers that most people can barely compute. And we've never before seen that in the same time that someone has been the President of the United States, the most scrutinised person probably on the planet, and yet he's
2:48 Speaker 04 managed to make the sort of wealth that most top American investors and business people don't make. And in fact, Donald Trump has made this part of his political success. In many countries, like in Australia, we saw our Prime Minister Albanese endure several days of hard media coverage because he bought, openly bought a house on the central coast of New South Wales. And yet, here is a president making billions of dollars, who rarely gets asked about it. I go to the White House press briefings as often as possible, and he'll rarely, or his spokesperson Caroline Leavitt, will rarely be asked about this.
3:30 Speaker 04 It's been baked in now to the Trump presidency.
3:34 Speaker 02 You've asked him about this. What was the process of getting in a position to ask that question to the president like?
3:41 Speaker 04 Getting to ask any president any question is difficult. It's a battle. This is the most competitive media environment I've ever seen, by far. So you have some of the best and brightest and most ambitious American media, who are all in that briefing room. It has 49 seats, seven by seven, a row of seven by seven. Those forty nine journalists and then you'll have, you know, sometimes fifty or a hundred other journalists sort of spilling into around the side of those chairs. So to get to ask a question of any president, particularly this one, is difficult.
4:20 Speaker 04 For Four Corners, we tried four times, fronting up to the Marine One helipad where the helicopter takes off. And for people like me who don't have one of those forty nine chairs in the briefing room, that's the best way to try to get to ask the president. And the process itself is quite extraordinary. You wait in that briefing room, which we see on television all the time. You wait there for an hour or two until the door that you see on the left of Caroline Levitt will open up and then they will let different waves of journalists and photographers through. There's the pool reporters, then there's the pool camera people, then there's the still photograph people, and then finally I got to go through.
5:03 Speaker 04 And the first time I did it, the first of those four attempts, was a real learning experience because once you walk through that door, you then come out on to the colonnade there near the Oval Office. And I walked through there not knowing, hadn't done this before, and then suddenly everyone took off like it was the stall gift at like a hundred metre sprint. And I thought, what's happening here? And suddenly I thought, well, if everybody else is running, I should run as well. And of course, they're all running off to the helipad. And I I admit I wasn't the fastest or the fittest of those fifty journalists who were heading towards the Marine One helipad, where they put a rope and you have to stand behind a rope.
5:45 Speaker 04 And on my first occasion, I was way too slow and so I was at the back and tried to get a question in. It didn't work. Then the second time, I started to sort of pick it up a bit the drift and the moment I got through that door, bang, I took off and I still wasn't in the first twenty or thirty to finish the stall gift. So I didn't get a question because you're way at the back. And each time I tried to learn from it, I I thought I'm going to try to turn this into my own little mini-science. So I started asking some of the There as we were sitting waiting in that room. How does this work? What's the best way of getting a question? And one of the American cameramen said to me, mate, this president loves the camera. He's drawn towards the camera. He has been for forty, fifty years. Stay near the camera.
6:30 Speaker 04 And there's often only one or two pool cameras. And I said to him, can I stick near you? He said, yeah, sure. And then there was another journo, an American journo, sitting on the other side of me. And I sort of tried to download his knowledge and said, what's the key to this? And he looked at me and he said, listen, this guy likes the ladies. Oh. And I said, what do you mean? He said, he's a president who likes the ladies. He'll often go and ask the ladies, give them the call for the question. So I thought, okay, I've got the cameraman and the lady. Anyway, we finally get out to the rope. And I said to one of the women standing near me, you know, what's the key to getting a question? Because you stand there for about an hour waiting for. Oh, really? The president to come out. Anyway, I said to her, what's the key? You know, what's the secret to getting a question?
7:16 Speaker 04 She was from one of the big American networks. And she said, well, you know, for me, it's, I wear a red dress. And I looked at her and said, well, I don't think I've got time to go home and get mine. And she sort of laughed, but I was well positioned. It's like you're in the Melbourne Cup. You're one out, one back. So I had the cameraman on the right, the lady on the left. And I was reasonably near the rope. I'd learned how to run. And so I was there in a good position. And I said to our cameraman, I think this is going to be it. And a few minutes before he comes out, all the Secret Service fan out on around the south lawn, you know? They take up positions under this tree and that tree. And then the helicopter activity starts. They often have decoy helicopters.
7:58 Speaker 04 So there's not just the Marine one for the president, which turns its engines on. So that's why everybody's shouting.
8:07 Speaker 04 But there's one or two other helicopters that will fly in a circle around the White House. And they have a second or third helicopter as a decoy. Oh, my goodness. For security. So people don't know which helicopter the president's in. So anyway, I'm there and he walks out and he is the most hulking presence. He dominates either a room or an event, you know? And the moment he walks out, everybody pays attention. This is a president who commands a lot of presence. And he walks up and down the rope, listening for which question he wants. He sort of like shopping for his questions.
8:44 Speaker 04 And some people were shouting out about Epstein and, you know, he doesn't hear that. It's not a subject he wants to talk about. So he moves on. And he can always use the plausible deniability of the Marine One, the sound of the chopper. Anyway, I thought, how do I get his attention? And I shouted out, "Mr. President, you're the wealthiest man to ever occupy the office."
9:10 Speaker 04 And he suddenly stopped and he heard wealthiest. It's no secret, I don't think, that this president likes superlatives. Best, fastest, wealthiest. And it's true, he's the wealthiest president to occupy the office. So he stopped and looked at me and he beamed. He smiled and beamed and he just smiled and said, "I hope so."
9:33 Speaker 04 And suddenly I had the call. Wow. I then had to perform, right? I've got the attention of the President of the United States. I can't stuff this up. And I'd rehearsed my questions. I knew what I wanted to ask and I had to work out if he says this, I say this. Because we wanted real information for the Four Corners program. We didn't just want a grab. We didn't just want a moment. And I said, "How much wealthier are you now than when you returned to office here seven months ago?"
10:04 Speaker 03 Well, I don't know, the deals are made for the most part, other than what my kids are doing.
10:08 Speaker 04 And he then said, "Well, listen, it's up to my kids, you know. I'm not involved in the business." Then he turned around and changed the subject and started talking about this wonderful ballroom that he was going to be making behind him.
10:19 Speaker 03 So for 150 years, John, do you know this? They've wanted the ball over. And now they're going to finally have it. And it's going to knock your socks off.
10:27 Speaker 04 Um, blah, blah. And then he looked back at me and that's when I said to him, "How appropriate is it for a President of the United States to be involved in so many business deals?" And I could almost see in his eyes, the moment I used the word appropriate. I could see the switch. He went from engaging to seeing me as, "I don't like this guy or his question," right? And he started to answer.
10:56 Speaker 04 And then he suddenly snapped and said, "Where are you from?"
10:59 Speaker 03 Where are you from?
11:01 Speaker 04 If I said I'm from the ABC, he could have thought ABC America.
11:07 Speaker 02 Yes, of course.
11:08 Speaker 04 He would have just said fake news and moved on to the next person. So I deliberately said Australian Broadcasting Corporation's Four Corners program.
11:17 Speaker 02 Yes, because he doesn't know anything about that. He has no idea what Four Corners is.
11:21 Speaker 04 And when he heard Australian Broadcasting, that's when he said, I don't like your tone. Your leader wants to see me, I'm going to tell on you.
11:30 Speaker 03 The Australians, you're hurting Australia right. In my opinion, you are hurting Australia very much right now. And they want to get along with me, you know, your, your, your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell them about you, you set a very bad tone. Go ahead, John.
11:46 Speaker 04 And then he looked at the next person. I'd lost the call, but that's when I tried to get in my first question, that when the United Arab Emirates gives you or your family $2 billion, what do they want in return? And he could tell by now that, you know, these were not questions he really wanted to answer. And he just pointed at me and said, oh, shout it quiet.
12:13 Speaker 02 How did you feel? You know, obviously you've got the professional face on, you know, you're a very experienced journalist. But you've got this man who you know is unpredictable and can get really angry and can wield his power in unexpected ways. How did you feel in that moment where he's basically saying, I'm going to dob on you to the Prime Minister?
12:34 Speaker 04 It is a daunting experience to have the President of the United States saying he's going to tell on you. But I kept saying to myself or thinking, I just have to be professional, calm. I have to stay true and do my job. I can't choke, I can't feel, I can't ask him the questions. My job is to hold people like him or anybody accountable. You do it calmly, you do it politely. I needed to deliver. I was only going to get one shot at this. We were on deadline, the Four Corners deadline was about a day or two away. This was my moment and I couldn't blow it. And I managed to get three questions into him.
13:18 Speaker 04 And the White House, I think, thought that our piece was fair. We'd been engaging with them, by the way, for some weeks by email. We'd been sort of checking things with them. It wasn't done sort of secretly. We were very upfront with the White House about it and they fed material which we put into the programme. And I think that they would have thought the president is happy to take these questions.
13:40 Speaker 02 How lucky we are to work for the ABC. We know that, okay, you can go and tell the prime minister whatever you want, Mr. President, it doesn't really matter to us. You know, we're backed by a strong media institution and a culture of a free press in this country. And so it's very fortunate.
13:58 Speaker 04 I knew too at that moment that even if President Trump did tell on me to the Australian Prime Minister, I was confident that my bosses at the ABC wouldn't bow to that sort of pressure, which in itself is pretty extraordinary. There are no shortage of media groups around the world, especially here in America at the moment, where the media is going through convulsions. Look at what's happening at CBS 60 Minutes. There's no shortage of organisations here in America that clearly do not want to upset the president. I upset the president. It wasn't my intention to and my bosses at the ABC supported me.
14:38 Speaker 02 I guess we're lucky that, you know, there isn't some sort of a $40 billion merger between the ABC and Paramount Plus on the line requiring approval by Trump's FEC. It doesn't really matter. They've got this unfortunate level of pressure on all these media organisations because of things that are being done far, far outside of the newsroom.
14:56 Speaker 04 The benefit of a publicly funded broadcaster is, of course, that you're not subject to those sort of financial pressures. And for that, I'm very grateful. And I was able to ask the president these questions in that confidence.
15:12 Speaker 02 Just looking at precedent, what sorts of things did US presidents used to do in terms of isolating themselves from potential financial gain? While they were in the White House.
15:22 Speaker 04 Traditionally, most presidents have opted to put their investments into blind trusts. We know famously that Jimmy Carter did that with his peanut farm. We know that Richard Nixon, in fact, had to address on television the fact that he accepted the present of a dog.
15:40 Speaker 02 A dog?
15:41 Speaker 05 It was a little cocker spaniel dog, and our little girl Tricia, the six-year-old, named it Checkers. And you know, the kids, like all kids, love the dog. And I just want to say this right now, that regardless of what they say about it, we're going to keep him.
15:57 Speaker 04 He accepted the present of a dog, and he had to actually explain that he'd received that gift. And so usually presidents have been extremely careful not to be seen to be or to be making much money. In fact, we know, it's on the public record, that it looks like when Bill Clinton left office, he left office with less money than when he arrived. A lot of that, of course, was all of the legal bills that he paid for the various legal cases that he faced while he was president. Most presidents have gone on to make money afterwards, you know, big book deals of people like Barack Obama made a huge book deal.
16:38 Speaker 04 But we haven't seen really a president make this sort of money in office. And that, amongst many, many other things, makes Donald Trump a unique president.
16:49 Speaker 02 Well, I mean, you mentioned gifts in his disclosure document. I'll pull it up here. It lists gifts that were given to him in this 927-page document. We're talking about a sculpture called "The Defiance Moment," $250,000 value, Super Bowl tickets, Daytona 500 tickets, UFC tickets, that kind of thing. But it's interesting, looking at these forms, he is telling us, I suppose, what his money situation is looking like and where it's coming from. He potentially could make an argument, "Look, I'm not actually hiding anything. It's all right out there in the open." What would you say about that?
17:27 Speaker 04 Well, that's part of the extraordinary aspect of Donald Trump. It's all out there. It's part of his political genius in the sense of being able to, as he says, I can basically get away with anything. He's famously said that. Because he's saying this on nighttime television to Americans about this deal or this crypto deal or Bitcoin, people think it must be okay. But there's two particular sort of deals that, to me, explain or show the potential conflicts of interests that I think are at play under the Trump administration. And the first one was a deal with Vietnam. While Vietnam was negotiating with President Trump over what tariffs they would have imposed upon them,
18:12 Speaker 04 as all countries did negotiate with the Americans, the Prime Minister of Vietnam, Pham Minh Chin, appeared alongside Donald Trump's son Eric at a ceremony marking the start of a Trump branded golf resort development in the country's north. So to me, that gets to the heart of the problem with the Trump political and business model. While dad is negotiating with a country about what tariff he's going to have imposed on that country, that country is negotiating with his son. And then, of course, you get to the United Arab Emirates deal, where we know that the government of the United Arab Emirates, through a company called MGX, agreed to put $2 billion
18:56 Speaker 04 into the Trump family's World Liberty Financial, money that it was transferring to Binance, which is the cryptocurrency exchange. And then, two weeks after that $2 billion transaction, President Trump travelled to the UAE for an official visit. And then, the two countries agreed to create a path for the UAE to buy some of the world's most advanced AI semiconductors from American companies. And so, there's no evidence that one deal was explicitly offered in return for the other, but of course, it holds open the possibility and the perception that these two could be connected. They involve the same government officials and the same families benefiting. And to me, that UAE deal.
19:41 Speaker 04 indicates why it's not healthy in a democracy for a president and his family to be so intertwined with business deals when there's also political deals happening at the same time. But because it's all put out there, probably as a deliberate strategy. Because if the New York Times then runs a big story about the United Arab Emirates deal, a lot of Americans, both supporters and detractors of Donald Trump, think, oh, yeah, we heard about that a month ago. You know, all the Qatar jet, oh, yeah, we know about that.
20:14 Speaker 06 The government of Qatar, the Qatari family, has offered to donate this plane to the United States Air Force, where that donation will be accepted according to all legal and ethical obligations.
20:27 Speaker 04 And so it's not revealed, if you know what I mean, it's not the media outing something. It's Donald Trump getting in ahead of the curve. I've never seen a politician as good at this as Donald Trump.
20:39 Speaker 02 Even at a more specific level than the president, you've got the other family that is so heavily involved in World Liberty Financial, which is receiving these massive influxes in cash from the Gulf, is the Whitkoff family. And then Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner, beneficiaries of these deals are the ones that are apparently doing the negotiations with all these states in order to try and bring about the elusive Middle East peace. There's conflicts of interest all up and down the line. It's an extraordinary thing. We used to think that there were things in place in order to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Were we wrong that those things exist, that restrictions on the president exists? Or is it just not being enforced?
21:23 Speaker 04 I think we were wrong that there were real restrictions. Conflict of interest laws here in America exempt the president and the vice president, which itself is bizarre. You know, if there were two people who should be subject to any of those sorts of laws and restrictions, it should surely be the two most senior officers in the government. And under the US Constitution, there's the foreign emoluments clause.
21:51 Speaker 04 Which essentially is like the presents clause or the gifts clause. And that states that a president or an office holder should not be receiving gifts from a foreign country for obvious reasons, that it could hold that leader up to possible compromise. Now, of course, we know that the White House and President Trump argue that that Qatar jet, which the president tried to recently fly with and then had to abandon it because it had possible security questions. But the White House argues that the government of Qatar, the Qatari family, offered to donate
22:30 Speaker 04 that plane to the United States Air Force, where that donation would be accepted, along with all legal and ethical obligations. So they would argue that plane was not a personal donation or gift to the President of the United States, he just happens to be the one who was going to fly in it. And again, how can he then do a deal with Qatar or a security deal or a tariffs deal when they are gifting this to the US United States Air Force, which he's going to use and which he has argued he could perhaps after his president have for a museum. So these are the problems and one of the interesting things here is that most Americans
23:13 Speaker 04 do not seem terribly phased by this. Hmm. It's part of the Trump persona that he's surrounded by money and wealth. It's seen as part of the Trump success story. And the White House pumps out the line that, well, you know, he's a businessman by training, his kids shouldn't be prevented from conducting their businesses, he doesn't know what the children are doing, but he does know when he decides to essentially pass an executive order that will give a huge boost to Bitcoin, he does know that his family company, which involves him as well, has huge stakes in Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. And so he will be making a lot of money out of signing that executive order.
23:58 Speaker 04 He would argue that I'm doing it because it's good policy. And I suppose it's up for the American public to decide whether they agree with that or not.
24:06 Speaker 02 As with so many things with Donald Trump, it's kind of like all of this was available to any US president who wanted to do it. It's just that he's the first one that's pushed the boundaries of what a US president can do, you know. It's not as though anything's been changed for him. He's just gone, well, there's actually no specific law stopping me from doing this, so I'm gonna do it. Why not?
24:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, look, he's crashed through so many traditions and conventions and look, someone will challenge it legally and then it'll take six or 12 months in the courts. At the end of the day, Americans have elected a leader who doesn't play by the traditional rules and conventions. It is the Wild West, for better or for worse, and Americans spent, you know, decades admiring John Wayne and the Western movies. Now, the Wild West has come to the White House.
24:55 Speaker 02 John, thank you so much for talking to us. Your story about managing to get those questions to Donald Trump, it's all the more extraordinary you got those questions to him, given we now know the hoops you had to jump through and I'm sure that next time you'll bring the red dress.
25:08 Speaker 04 If I can still fit into it.
25:09 Speaker 02 Thank you, John.
25:11 Speaker 04 Thanks, Matt.
25:19 Speaker 02 On Thursday, we're staying on Trump and money, but this time we're getting into the wild world of prediction markets, the fast-growing corner of the internet where people are placing bets on what Trump is going to say, who he'll pardon, or who he'll go to war with next. But have they made it easier than ever to cash in on insider information? I'll catch you then.
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