Murder in slow motion: Claude Robinson & Vince Hurley Pt.2

In Part 2 of Gary’s discussion with former detective Dr Vince Hurley and reformed prisoner Claude Robinson on I Catch Killers, the unlikely duo pull back the curtain on a justice system that is failing victim survivors, perpetrators, and the public alike. They argue that the current approach to tackling domestic violence is little more than a "ten-billion-dollar business" that prioritises prison beds over prevention. However, they may have a solution. This episode contains descriptions of men’s violence against women. If you or anyone you know needs support or information, contact 1800 RESPECT on 1800 737 732. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  In part two of I Catch Killers, I continue discussions with my two guests. Claude Robertson, a former prisoner who is literally making society a better place with his innovative approach to reducing crime. And it comes as no surprise to me that the politicians are sitting up and taking notice of the work that Claude is doing in the managing of the Rainbow Lodge. And we also have Dr Vince Hurley, who has a unique understanding of crime, having been a former cop, now academic. We talk about the dangers of people like Desi Freeman and importantly, a programme to reduce domestic violence, which I think is a great idea. And also touch on how the justice system doesn't treat everyone equally. Have a listen.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Vince Hurley and Claude Robertson, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. What I want to talk about, and I enjoyed the chat because it's good in part one, getting your thoughts on crime from different perspectives. But what I want to talk about is domestic violence. How do we prevent it? What are the issues that we face? Claude, firstly to you, you sent me some statistics. Then the past 30 years. The murders of women have halved.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Have halved. Yeah, so when I started doing some research, you know, because I was getting, we're getting bombarded with, oh, this is, there's a national crisis. You know, I think they even convened a national cabinet.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I'm not admitting like.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  One, there's too many.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Why I, I, you know, similar to, um, oh, similar to both you in police, like, if, if you don't get the facts, you can't get a solution. You're going in the wrong thing.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's important because in saying that, not what raising it, saying, oh, look, we're, we're talking about domestic violence. It's not really an issue. As you said, one incident.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. My thing is, so, so when I, a Bureau of Statistics went back, so nineteen ninety, one hundred and forty eight women were murdered.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Last year, seventy eight. I know the year before was the biggest peak we'd had in twenty years. I think it was a hundred and one. And I'm thinking, what have, we've done something right. If we have halved it, why aren't we talking about what have we done? That's worked. We've done something. And when I, I looked at it, and I'm not an academic, but you know, the research that I could look at. I saw a direct correlation. That was from ninety one. I think ninety three, the new gun, you know, uh, Howard, the buyback.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  And, uh, unlike Americans who go, you know, uh, nothing wrong with guns, it's humans, a load of crap.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  As someone who's been shot, if there's a gun there, and I say this to people, to stab or strangle someone is a really personal thing.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  To shoot someone is nothing. You can do it.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  You don't even know the, the outcome of it when you pull that trigger. And I'm not an expert, but I looked at it and I thought there's got to be a correlation with all the guns, the access to guns stopped. You know, and then there'd been some peaks. And then when I looked at it, the liberals and the nationals over the last five or ten years are starting to chip away at those gun laws.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  You know, and I think we saw that with the Bondi.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Thing, you know, that, you know, I can't believe that a, a father was able to have six guns in a house with someone who'd been on a terrorist watch list. And I'm not a terrorism, but common sense would say. That you don't have guns with someone who's been on a list.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  At any stage, you know.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  So, yeah, and I thought, why are we, you know, focusing, and don't get me wrong.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Seventy eight women is too much, but that's not the true narrative. And, you know, I met with the Chief Magistrate of New South Wales and another magistrate and someone was there from Boxar and, you know, they were upset about that too, because what they said was the three hundred thousand women who were assaulted and hospitalized hasn't changed in the last thirty.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  No, yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And nobody talks about it.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  No, that's exactly right.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  So it's like we're censor, and I go, because what will happen?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  The politicians will go and change a law or make a law about, based on something that's not real.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Why this underlying thing, it's not pretty, or it's not a good story, or it doesn't make a great, it doesn't make the news.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  When we last caught up, the three of us, you guys were working on a plan, an idea to help combat domestic violence, stop it when it's occurring. So it just doesn't, the person doesn't get caught up in the system. Do you guys want to talk about the concept you were talking about?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so obviously from the Q and A thing, we had some more conversations and what I.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  And just because we've made reference to the Q and A thing, but that was Vince and just you go Vince hashtag dot. Vince, you're on the Q and A on the ABC. I think the topic of discussion was domestic violence and you unleashed about your frustration and the frustration that you've seen from your early times in policing.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  And we don't seem to be doing anything that's actually working.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  No, no. And I think just going back to Claude's point earlier about the number of women, and it has actually halved, surprisingly. But what I think has taken its place is other type of domestic violence, whether it be coercive control. That's captures a lot of things, emotional.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Financial. Yeah. You've got elder abuse, you've got dowry abuse, so Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian countries. Right. When the wife's family has to give a dowry to the husband's family, if that dowry is insufficient, but the family's still willing to take that bride, that then plunges that bride into a life of marriage slavery. Um.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I worked in forced marriage at one of my, when I was at Tauta Monday, so I, we ran one of the only forced marriage uh, uh, houses for young girls escaping, but yeah, generally young Muslim girls out of Western Sydney. And when I looked at all the data and all the things and all that, you know, it's not a religious thing, it's about money.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  And male power.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, it is, yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  That's all, all, all it's about.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  You know, control, um, money and power.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Just getting off the point, because we always do.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  But talking about, talking about coercive control.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  A friend of ours, he's in the police, he went to a domestic argument and they went in and the bloke was doing all the talking and one of the police, thank God they're switched on, goes, oh, this is not quite right. So the other bloke said, I'm just gonna go for a walk through the house to have a look. And on the kitchen fridge was a list of chores this woman had to do and she signed it. It was. Yeah. A fucking contract and they took that and they charged him of coercive control. Yeah, good on them. And the fucking, fuck, what type of fucking human, not even that, imbecile does that.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  That's not on you. When I worked at the Salvos, we, we did some stuff with domestic violence and we had a, a lady, um, and we had to drive down this street at the same time every day, cause the only time she could leave the house without a husband or the sons was at this particular time. So we would have to drive down this street to see if she was there to pick her up. You know, and one day we picked her up, like that's the level of control. With the forced marriage, I remember we were getting a young girl out of a Western Sydney high school. So this is the level of control they have over their life and it's a form of domestic violence, we just call it forced marriage. And it was great, I worked with the federal police on this who were amazing, you know.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Really, really, um, good things. So what we would do with her, when she, we knew she was gonna come out, because the federal police had flagged it, they referred her to us, she brought one item of data school for six months. That's the level of control that they had over her life, that if she had too much, too many clothes or two extra things in her bag, they'd be on to her. So she would bring it to the school every day and leave it in the principal's office and it's six months. Because, you know, you're asking people, especially in force, to leave the whole, like their family, everyone.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Like, you can't go back.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's right, yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  And potentially, it's, here it's not at a level where you go to England, they'd kill you, you know, and when you would he- hear their stories of the control, like I remember this young girl telling me this, and this is Friday, my daughter's 10 years old, I think she was 10 or 11, and the Friday thing, this is not just the man, the mother's part of this, is, you know. So they would have these men round, the girl just thought, oh, that's friends of the family, and she would serve them tea and biscuits and all this sort of stuff, but what they were doing were showing her.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  You know, and I just go like, wow, you know, and some of these, you know, were taken overseas, we had one who ended up, um, overseas, because we actually got the, got her away from the husband, and then coercively.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Got her out and got her to America, America has, uh, no forced marriage laws and you can marry 14-year-olds in some states still.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Um, I remember working with the federal police and all we could do was, we just had to get her to an Australian embassy or consulate, which was our property.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  And then we could get her, but apart from that, like, they couldn't call the police, because it's not breaking the law over there, so. That's the level of control and I think, you know, with the murders have dropped down. So I think Vincent's right, they're using other means. And I was speaking to some people at the note of violence conference and I sat in on a meeting with that the other day. And a young female professor had done some research and we were speaking about this off camera before, around young girls and their ex, young girls, young women's experience of technology and dating and the control over it. And one of the things that I've been speaking to people about is, you know, our kids, you know, we have trackers on their phones now because we love them, we worry where they are.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  And some of the research that they were coming back with is, so when these girls go into a relationship and the boyfriend says, oh, we'll put a tracker on your phone. They relay that to, well, that's what people who love me do.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I think we were talking about the, um, the Apple tags and all that, you know? And I've heard people say, oh, you put that on things of value. So if my partner wants to be in my car, that's, cause I'm, I think in day it's frightening.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  It is. Again, it's technology overtaking us.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  And, uh, yeah, it was hard to track people. Now it's quite easy, easy to track people. If we look at domestic violence, breaking it down, why is it occur? Which is, you know, that's society issues and we, we talked in part one about, uh, you know, what young boys have been exposed to. When it does start to, uh, happen, I think coercive control is a good thing, as in the legislation coming in. I think it's good because from a policing point of view, I don't know about you, Vince, but I always had problems with, you walk into a domestic violence situation, unless someone's been assaulted, even though you know the person's going to be assaulted the moment you walk out the door. If the offence hadn't been committed, you were sort of powerless in what you could do.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  So coercive control, it's complex. I, I think it'll be interesting how the courts process it, how the police investigate it. Then you've got the AVOs, when, yeah, invariably you see a build up. It's like a timeline to when it gets to the extreme of murder. It's like a timeline, it's murder in slow motion. You see initially there's an assault, then they start stalking the person, then, you know, it happens like that. Where do we put the circuit breaker in for the the AVOs? Are they good enough? And I want to talk about ankle bracelets too, if someone has been charged, or I think you said, put chips in them like dogs with the R S P C A.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Well, actually, yeah, we'll get to that.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  So to that, I think we've got to try and, yeah, the actual murders might have been reduced, but still there's too much domestic violence and any incident of domestic violence is something that we've got to work on. Then you guys come in with this plan and initially when we sat down for a coffee, it made a lot of sense to me because, okay, someone breaches the A V O, they get put in prison. Are they getting any counselling or any direction or are they sitting in a cell with another angry man going, all women are bitches, blah, blah, blah. And it's just whipping it up and look what she's done to me. We're not teaching them anything. Then they get out. But the programme that you guys were talking about, there's a circuit breaker in there. And something creative. So do you want to explain that?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, the safer men, safer families is what the programme's called. And, you know, as I said, I've worked in domestic violence. I've worked in youth services. In my youth services, we had sixty eight kids. They're all there because of domestic violence. It's, you know, because the family home's unsafe. It's a huge problem. And I I kept seeing the same thing is like what what we do is, you know, there's an incident and we grab mum and the kids and scamper. And a lot of the time, and he's left in the house. And I thought, it's insane. And I don't know if you've been to a women's refuge, but the best ones are shit.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Like, you don't want people.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  They're not good places.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And the other thing I saw when I was working in youth services, and I don't know what's in the food or the chicken the kids eat today, but the boys are so much bigger. So the family would escape and twelve, thirteen year old boys can't go into the refuge because they're too big and they scare the other women. So so not only does mum escape and with the kids, then they're then separated and they've got to send the boy to a youth service because he's too big. And I go, this is insane. And again, from, you know, I've spent half my career working with youth. And and my own experience is that we know that schools and education and sporting and community are the best protective factor for all those sort of things. Yet we're taking mum and the kids out. And when I went around and spoke to all the women's services and I did a, I spoke to some victim survivors.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Because I had this idea, but I thought like if they don't agree, can't do it.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  You know, first I went to the judiciary and they agreed and then I went to the, you know, and a hundred percent they all went, oh, this would be so much different. Two things that was interesting, they said if the, so our idea is mum and the kids stay in the house. We remove the male and we bring in protective, he would come into.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Okay, can we just break it down so people, people are following it. Domestic situation in a suburban house, police have attended. Often that it would be a situation that the women would go into a refuge and take the children. What you're suggesting is that the women stay in the place.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  But then the, the risk from the police point of view and, and from the potential victims is, are they safe there?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Because if the person, if the male gets taken away, charged, possibly gets bail, do they feel safe in, in that environment? You're sort of flipping it and saying, well, let the women stay there.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  If the man is charged, that then they go, what, what you're suggesting.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Into our service, so they would be bailed to our service and we already have that experience now, you know, um.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Can you just explain the service so people, uh, like Rainbow Lodge, so you've got accommodation there. So the man could be taken away if, if there is domestic violence situation.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  The women and children are staying in the place.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  The man's taken away, taken to the police station, at the police station without what you're talking about.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  The only options are, well, you get bail or you get held in custody.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  What you're saying is that they could get bail to.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  To our service.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Service.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So two ideas, and this is where Vincent's idea came into it, his frustration, I'm sure you would know was. A lot of the public don't realise that most AVOs are contact AVOs. I speak to the general public and they think if you get an AVO, you can't go back and see the person, you can't go near them. That's actually not true.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  No, that's, yeah, that's.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's usually, you can, most AVOs are contact and they might say you can't be there if you've drunk in 12 hours, some other things. But the, the, the public's idea of what an AVO is and the reality is different.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  You know, so generally, you know, I think as Vincent said to me, they'd come to the police station. You knew they're going to get police bail, it's not bad enough. You know, I think Vince said to me, you release him and you know, six hours later he'll be back at the Brown's house.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  You know, and, and Vincent would say, you know, you'd say, have you got somewhere to go for the night at least? And, you know, and even when I thought about that, I thought, oh, what do you do? You go to your mate's house and have six beers and.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Call her, this and that. You know, and I, cause it wasn't even my first idea and I thought, wow, we need a circuit breaker. So the two ideas were, the program is so the police would arrest the person, come back, place a NABR and they would bail them to our service. So generally, as you guys are not the public know, so when you're arrested and uh into police custody, you generally have to go before a magistrate within seven days. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, for that to, you know, be kept going where they'll keep you in custody or the magistrate might make a bail determination that you can go back into the community with more restrictions. Yeah. You know, the police, the sergeant, that's just the first instance of it, you know? So our idea was, in, in the first instance, so they refer to our service, so they're not home, so mum's safe.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  We would bring in our organisation, Wajec, to work with mum straight away. So as soon as they were referred to us, we would call Wajec and have a worker and they'd go out to mum and the family. That doesn't happen now. At best, if you're a victim of domestic violence, I think if you go over the police matrix, they then refer you to us. Yeah. And they got to call you within seventy two hours or, that's our currency. This, they would have a worker straight away out there if the police deemed that this person, the man can come into our service. He would come in for seven days. Initially, before he goes before the magistrate, we would work with him with psychologists and give him some incident. So you, you have psychologists set up there to do with this? Yep, to do with this. Um, the caseworker will be working with mum and the kids about what they want.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Cause one of the things that was brought to my attention in our current system, the police coming and all that. If mum and the kids get a service, generally what happens is, we've got a bed at a refugee, you've got an hour to make a determination on whether you wanna go, cause the bed will go. Hmm, yeah. Our way, they've got seven days. So they don't have to make any rash decision, they've got their own worker. So mum and the kids can talk to them. And the other thing that was really important, uh, and this is what the courts liked and the victim survivors liked was that they'll write a letter. So mum and the kids will actually get to write a letter to the magistrate. So when he comes up before about what they would like, cause that doesn't happen now. No. You know, as you know, a magistrate at best gets it from the police facts. Yeah, yeah. Which is scratchy, you know what I mean? You haven't got all the bits.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  It is, yeah, that's right. And, you know, he generally doesn't turn up, she doesn't turn up, it's not safe. So the magistrate's trying to make a determination of police facts with ours. So, uh, you know, Wajec worker would work with mum and they would write a letter to the court on the outcome they would like or conditions they would like. And we would work with the male and we would put forward our recommendations with a psychologist about what we think would work. And then, of course, the police would put their position and then the magistrate and the magistrate said to us, that would be amazing. That we would be able to make this determination, a much more informed determination. And so at best, if they go, I know he's, look, we think he can go home. They would let him go home, but he's had seven days from the incident.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  And as I think you guys both told me, the most dangerous time for a woman is within fourteen days of the initial A V O being put in place.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  So that seven days, what interests me about it, because I worry, I just know the mentality of someone put in a cell for seven days, they're going to come out angry. They might say they're sorry, but they're going to be in there with other people that have done the same thing. That's seven days at your establishment.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  You've got counselors, psychologists, you've got people.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  They're doing men's programs, they're doing pretty intensive seven days. What, because one of the thing.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  The way to do it is a bit like poking the bear. So they have no, no contact with her. So what we want to know is, because as you would know, so a lot of the times they'll get family, the mom, the brother, sister.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  So we'll know that in real, because at the moment, we work in silos. You know, the man we, we might bail and somewhere else you can't go home and the women's waiting for that phone call. We, we this way, we're working in real time. So if he's, you know, Wajek will call us going like, he's just had the, the mom contact her over social media, straight boom. So we can take that straight to the courts. And this is what the magistrate like, so, because our current system is we give them an A V R and wait for them to breach it.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  With no supervision, you know, and that's a, as you guys.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  And Claude, you're, you're in that seven day program that they're there. You're challenging them on things, it's not, yeah, just settle down, don't do anything for the next week and you'll be fine and then they move on.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  It was interesting.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  You've got people that have, yeah, that have been there, done that.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  It's intensive. It's intensive. It's interesting, I had the, um, the A C T Minister of Corrections was in Sydney and she rang me up and said, oh, can I come and talk to you and visit? And we, we got talking about that program. And part of the program is that they have to cook and clean and she was, she was chuckling. I said, no, no, it's about breaking down all those stereotypical. You don't have the power here.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, this is the system, this is how it goes. I'll be doing men's groups, forensic psychologists in that seven days, you know, to really have a look. Because what we're hoping for those that are at the start

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  is there's a circuit break and we can refer them off to places and point outs and stuff. And if they play up, when they go back to court and they're, so they're on house arrest. We already do that at Rainbow.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Okay, that's their bail conditions.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're not, yep, at Rainbow, now we have men bailed there who are on house arrest. So they cannot leave Rainbow without staff.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Now, and we already do this, we do one of them with, out through Judge Beckett at Parramatta. We have a system that we've had seven come through, they've all completed. So we go back every month. You know, and they'll lessen the bail if they've done all right. Or they'll, you make it strict, you know, up to and including. They'll remove the bail and send them to custody.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  If they play up. But we're doing it, it's proactive. So we want to get them before they do that next.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  What we described up until this point, what do you see, the benefits?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Oh, look, first of all, you know, bizarrely we're saying this, it keeps them out of the criminal justice system rather than strutting to jail.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  I think what's really important is that different people react to different pressures or stresses to readjust their behaviour. So you can't just put everyone in jail as much as, you know, sometimes I would like to think that that would be the easiest way. But of course, there's massive downsides to that. But people will react differently to different pressures on their life, positive pressures. Like Claude said, you poke the bear to hold them to account.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  You know, just to see.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Is it bullshit? You know what I mean?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  We'd rather poke the bear.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Under those controlled circumstances.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Than going, than, you know, him saying all the right stuff.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And going home to mum and the kids and going, you know. And to also know. Our experience, and not everyone, but you know, there's 10% of men we can't help.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Oh, that's it, yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  They're no good, they're bad, they need to be in prison. We don't say we can help, but we think there's 90% of them, and we see that broken down into two lots. 60% are those who have grown up in domestic family violence and learnt it. At Rainbow, 96% of the men that come to us have grown up in family and domestic violence homes, and 90% go on to have, if not their index offence, at least some sort of... So there's a cause and effect, and that 60% we see are generally non-white or low socio-economic white people. The other 30% are the middle, upper-class white guys, where it's more of an entitlement thing. And they're more difficult. And again, the minister from ACT said, oh, how are you going to get them two together?

• 23:58Speaker 01

  And our thinking is that, can you imagine sitting in a group, you're the middle-class, upper-white guy, and you're behaving this way, and the guy next year, who's grown up in the... He's your son. He's what you're doing to your children. She went, oh my god.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  You're personalising it, yeah.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're real, like, the guy next year is talking about what his dad did, and he's really talking about the guy next to him.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Next to him, that's exactly right.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Because the other thing we found was, at the moment with our Men's Change programmes, is they focus on you've got to stop doing it because you're hurting her, which is someone who's had done crime and crime.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  It doesn't give you... It's not for you. It's not for you, you had to do it for you.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're innately selfish humans, and you're in conflict with that person. So I looked at some stuff around the world, and I found, I think it was out of Oxford University, did some Men's Change programmes in the UK where they changed the focus to the kids, and their success rate jumped by 50%. So our programme, we don't work with, only with families. So with kids, because we know that if we're to change domestic violence in Australia, it has to be intergenerational, so you have to stop the kids being impacted. So we don't work with people who don't have kids. It is all based on the kids. So we think if we challenge them, that 90%... And we're not gonna get, it's not a golden thing, it's not gonna make it perfect.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  But we do believe it's different than what we've got now, sending them to prison.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  You know, where they're just learning, getting angry.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  I, I, I think what's good about that system too, with domestic violence, is by the nature of the crime, it's done behind closed doors. So it's, you very rarely see domestic violence carried out in public, like where people are watching. Because it's a shameful, shameful crime.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  And if they commit those offences and no one's actually challenging, but then if they landed in your environment, you're actually calling them on the bullshit.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Like, really, and I, I think that's what, because, yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  In a controlled, safe environment.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  And when, when I just can't control myself, no.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  No, fuck with.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  You can control yourself, you choose not to control yourself when it's behind closed doors. But in public, you're not gonna go around slapping your wife, but you'll do that when the doors are closed.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  And I would imagine they're the type of conversations that you guys would be having in, in that environment.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, but similar to Rainbow, but more intense. So the idea is that they'll be seeing the psychologist weekly, there'll be groups, two groups a day, men's groups and all that. And what we see, the five drivers, I think I got this right, is um, drugs, alcohol, financial, gambling and pornography. Now pornography is the thing we don't do well in this country, the Americans are decades ahead of us. All the evidence tells us, and I think especially when it's um, homicide related domestic violence, the impact of pornography and violent pornography.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Area of expertise, like.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's an area, and when I bring it up, people go, yeah, especially women.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  It, it surprised me when I spoke to services, how they said the amount of women who were made to watch or act out pornographic scenes that their husband had watched.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  I haven't had this type of discussion about the pornography and the impact it's had. I, I hear, you know, people make comments of pornography and it's a store the view for kids that see it on, you know, what their sex life should be. But I didn't, you're the first one, I've, I've sat down talking about how that can play out in the, the way the crimes are committed.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, there's an, it's another expectation, another form of control, you know. Yeah. You, you, you're my partner, my whatever, you need to do this to satisfy me, you know. So just another level of control. I'm lucky that I know someone who's actually been to America and trained. In diversionary programs. Yeah. The systems there, you know, that he went and and learn off is, so if you're on, um, if you Google porn or what on the computer, it shoots an email to a support person to hold each other accountable to go, hey, I've just got to, you can ring them and go, hey, Gary, I just got a notification. Cause it's it's crazy how much um, time and money. Yeah. People can uh, spend on it. And that becomes their reality. So. Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  And then so it becomes the expectation of their partner, you know, and um, you know, from the stuff that I've read the um, especially where there's homicides in- involved them, where the women say they're a raped. And we, and you go, oh, but they're married, they're in, you know, but it's not like that. No. You know what I mean? So, and the other one, the financial one and gambling, gambling, I call it the silent killer. You can't smell it, you can't see it. Yeah. And and you know, I think um, we are the worst gamblers in the world. Yep. In Australia. Yep. So I think those five drive, that's what we see. And then the second part of it is that we don't do well at the moment is

• 28:46Speaker 01

  giving the guys parenting programs, uh, circle of security, keeping kids in mind post separation program, tuning into, we don't give them the resources. So one of the anecdotal stuff that we've got from the guys who come through Rain, but they all say the same story to me. Eight, 10 years old, I don't wanna hurt my family like my dad does. I don't wanna drink like my dad does, and I don't wanna take drugs like my dad does. Like imagine having an eight and 10 year olds having a, already know. But we leave them in that environment. Yep. Right? And what they all say is the first time a stressor comes into their lives when they're in a relationship, it's like it's in their DNA, they're doing it. Yeah. And they're like, fuck, I'm like my dad. Yep. So they're going to shame. So what do they do? Drink drugs? That's right. And then just, you know, the police and this, in this cycle. And it's quite crazy. And I just go, wow. So.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Like a lot, what we see in crime is, you know, we deal with them and punish them for their response to being let down by society. And I don't think we like to admit it, but what we do is we've created these children who become men. And our response to it, and you know, I saw this with, you know, Minister Dib the other day, you know, 128 million dollars on juvenile, more juvenile prisons and making Reby, which is our 10 to 15 year old prison out in the western suburbs, bigger. We criminalise the kids' trauma response to their abuse.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you put them in the system and it always, it becomes problematic too, doesn't it?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Rainbow Lodge again, 75% of the men that come to us have juvenile justice engagement. So we know it's a, it's not a, it's not a circuit breaker.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  It's a gateway to adult crime.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  So this programme that you're talking about, have you had people coming through and seen, have you been able to document the success from it?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Well, we haven't, we haven't got it off the, we've got bits of it running, but we haven't got the funding yet from the government.

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Okay, so.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Unfortunately so.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  You two can't get funding from the government.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  I'll pay you if you two just keep attacking from one left side, right side.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a meeting on Monday.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  But look, to me, if you're just looking at it from a fiscal point of view, it makes a lot of sense to put money into a project like that, that could, you know, reduce the crime.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  When we were in the meeting with Rose Jackson, the Minister of Housing, going like, it's a no brainer for us, like, because one of the things I thought was, oh, we're getting the men out in the most safe way. But the reality is, when I went and did the research, 50% of the women want the relation to continue, they want the violence to stop.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, I have to think about this. It's much more complex on another level than that. And I was like, all right, so we have two streams. We've either got to work with the men so they can come back into the family in a healthy way, or we have to exit them from the family in the most, the least damaging way that's safe for everyone. And, you know, Rose said at that meeting, you know, much easier if we've got to get the man out of the house, he does your program to house one man than a wife with three ki- a- a woman with three kids, you know, like it's a no brainer.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Or the cost of, if you incarcerated the man too.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think you brought up and said, like, I, I know I do some work with Habitat for Humanity and Greg, who's one of the guys there, you know, they just built this, oh, they were halfway through building this new Aboriginal DV.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Refuge out at Mount Drury and he, he can't, he was despondent, he's like, Claude, we're not even halfway through and it's full, it's booked out.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Like, we can't keep, this doesn't work, this is insanity. And that's the other thing, I hate this idea, we celebrate the opening of a new women's refuge.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  I go, that's a failure.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  I know, yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  And we sell it like that, we're failing. And it's not that we, we don't need those services, but I, it's not, we shouldn't be celebrating, we should be sitting there going, we're opening another one and we shouldn't be. We're not doing something right.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  I mean, probably not saying anything new to anyone. We've been in meetings with various ministers, Claude and I, you know, you go in and ask for a paltry, say, six hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars. Now, in the overall budget of New South Wales government, that's nothing.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  What, what, what were the figures you were talking, what did you say then?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  So, six hundred thousand to a million, but on Monday.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  I, I, I look at, I look at, um, if we have a protest in the city, you know, the expenditure with police.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, how much would that cost?

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and not saying we don't need the police here, but that puts it in perspective.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, overtime, all that, yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And what we're talking about is that we're trying to stop the victims, we're trying to stop the perpetrators, but if it's victims.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Each time, and then the flow-on effect. And you've identified, or one of you spoke about the amount of people that have grown up in the domestic violence situation end up back in the system.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, doing the same thing.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  In some capacity.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  The other thing that was interesting, and our data, and I spoke to the police in our area, is that the average male offender will have three victims in their domestic violence offending cycle. So, we get mum and kids out the first, we're two behind. I emphatically know this and I'm not one of these guys and I tell them to fuck off. Pardon the language, you know, when they go, oh, what about male victims? Like seriously, it's, it's so, it's so small. Like the reality is eighty five percent of all violence is committed by men. Sixty six percent of that against other men, but we are the violent people, right? So if men are the problem, then men are the solution.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  So if we can pull that man in and yes, he's affected one family, but if we can do something so he doesn't affect the next two, like we've won, and even if we did that half the time compared to what we're doing now. You imagine th- those women and children go out without the impact of that trauma. And on top of that, the cost, like on Monday, you know, we asked the government for six point one million dollars to run the program. That included about five hundred thousand dollars setup cost. So it's about one point seven million to run it for three, over three years. And that includes working with the men and with the women. I had a philanthropic organization already talk about giving us a million dollars to help the women. Cause one of the things that we identified was to keep the women safe. So we wanna be able to in real time, if we bring him into our service.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Change the locks, put security doors on, put camera, whatever they need, whatever they believe. Not what we think they need, whatever they believe they need in that house to feel safer. We can do in real time. We don't have to fill out a bit of paper and send it off and try and get some money. We need to be able to do this in real time. So it was horrendous to understand, you know, the amount of pets that are put down. Cause you can't take pets with you when you leave.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  And the impact on children.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Security. Boarding teams, all, all that the kids have to. And the thing that really blew me away when I went to this refuge was um the amount of hatred the kids had towards mum. Because, you know, she's making a.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Dad's a good man.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Well, and.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  He's moving them from their environment.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Well, they can't play footies, mate, you know, and, and again, I went to five schools. You know, most people that you guys would have interceded with in your career had that, you know, broken families, no role models, lots of schools. Because what that does is you lose your connection and those relationships. That forms and it teaches you that everything's transactional.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And, and I'm sorry, but we're men, we're not that smart and we're bigger.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  So when it comes down to it, we use. Our strengths.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  So if we don't teach men emotional intelligence, and I hate that word under management.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  I know what you mean, yeah, yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  I just hate it, like, cause anger's a really healthy, um, emotion. Rage isn't, and that's our expression of that is the problem.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  You know, we, men rage, like, I grew up in the seventies, you know, where you fucking didn't talk about shit.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  You know, like, I, I don't remember my dad ever telling me he loved me. You know, my ten year old daughter, she's fucking sick of it.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Oh, god, dad, you know what I mean?

• 36:33Speaker 00

  The program that you're talking about, it makes a lot of sense to me from a, a practical point of view, looking at it from a policing point of view. But now also looking at, at it from where I sit, sit now, speaking to people who have been caught up in the system. Vince, you're obviously a believer in it?

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, Claude summed it up, this, yeah, perfect, yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Okay, so we can't get funding for it?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Not currently, so, yeah, you know.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Where, where, where else do you put, where else do you put money into to stop this?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Youth prisons, well, you know, I wrote a post on LinkedIn.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Well, sorry, we're just, I'm, I'm thinking, cause it, trying to mount an argument. We're sure the police and there is, yeah, that's accepted, that there is a shortage in New South Wales, and I think pretty much across the country.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Australia, yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Um, of, of police. And then there's also the situation that the police time taken up with domestic violence is, yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Sixty nine percent, I think, is at Mount Drew, are the highest.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  In fact, I, I've got a, a mate who's between Parramatta, what, cities out of Western suburbs?

• 37:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Eighty five percent of police work is domestic violence.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Okay, so.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Eighty five percent.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  I remember you telling me a story when you were at Mount Drew, that I think in your whole shift, there was twenty callouts and they were all domestic violence, the whole, like, it's insane.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Okay, so we're not accountants or economists or whatever. However, I reckon if you did the figures.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  You could solve a lot of problems by solving domestic violence.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  And then the flow on effect, the negative offence of it, not just the, the victims, the impact it has on the children caught up in domestic violence and the flow on effect for their life. The shortage of police and the percentage of time spent investigating or being called out to domestic violence situations, you'd be wanting to throw money at a project that could potentially prevent that from happening. And then the next time, it's a front page and it'll be shock horror, woman being killed, domestic violence, and everyone will sit back and go, that's horrendous, we've got to do something about it. Well, we've got to do something about it before it happens. So, yeah, keep, well, I don't need to.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Maintain the rage.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  I don't, no, I don't want to say that with you two because I don't want, I don't want to get any call from the local police, why are these two storm Parliament House? I don't know, I didn't tell them to do that. But ser- seriously, like, all jokes aside, it's a serious thing, but it does seem like a no brainer and a practical, practical way of dealing with it.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  You know, and I wrote this post on LinkedIn, but you know what I brought it down to is that women and children, and especially First Nations women and children, men don't have any political currency to the government. They don't have enough votes, they don't care.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  We're perhaps being a little bit cynical towards politicians, but if something was introduced now, like the program that you're talking about, the benefits mightn't be immediate, but that might be after the next election cycle.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  And then.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  We said that with Rose Jackson, who, didn't she, and said, what I love about this is this is intergenerational, it's going to change the kids. Because we know that the parents are damaged, they're in the cycle, we hopefully can make their life better, but the real, the real change to the community comes from removing the children from harm and giving them skills. Like, that's the Jack's generation, where when, when they become older, they know that that's not acceptable. Like, that, that is the real change. I, I think it is possible, but I think as we. Talked about before we were on air, like, you know, we couldn't build the snowy river dam.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, because where's the immediate.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  There's no political currency in it.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Well, I, I, I think it's a, a way of approaching it and I think it's got more merits, merits than uh getting tough legislation, that type of thing. And there was other statistics, you sent the amount of people on, on remand now.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, over fifty percent in New South Wales.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  I, and I, I base this and I look at it like domestic violence, even in, when I was in the cops and even in, in my role now. A lot of it I see at the tail end of it, when someone's been murdered and there's this trail of domestic violence leading up to it, stalking, yeah, breaching AVOs and all that. I've been at pains to say, and I, I keep saying it, but it just, it, it seems to fall on deaf ears. About ankle bracelets. Now, we call them ankle bracelets, it could be a ring at, at the, in this day and age, but a tracking device. If someone's charged with domestic violence and an AVO has been taken out and it's got to the point where you're not to approach or come within so many kilometres of the person in need of protection.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  A tracking device, I, I think a, a tracking device in the form of, we'll call it ankle bracelet, to me, it seems like a no brainer. And I've spoken to people that have lost their families, domestic violence situation where AVOs have been breached. And each and every one of them that I've spoken to has said it would have helped because the victim's living in fear of their life. It's almost like you know this murder, this horrendous thing's gonna happen.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  In slow motion, but no one.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  In, in slow motion, but if you've got a tracking device, if, you two, we're in, in conflict. And any time that you come within five kilometres of, of Claude.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Notification.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  You get notified. Now, that has to give you a degree of, and then I've, I've raised and a few people said, oh, but the technology, sometimes it breaks down. Okay, if it runs out of battery, you get notified anyway. We don't know where the person is.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're actually, if you're wearing a bracelet, because it is your responsibility under the condition, so if it runs out of battery, it's actually a breach.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  You're, you're.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I was just about to say, yeah, look, yeah. That's a breach, because I know, because I've had guys at my service on um ESOs. Yeah. Who are on. And that is a breach.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  That is, it's exactly right.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  It's conditional, but yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  And my, my, my concern, I, I know they've bothered in, in some incidents, but why across the board? And it mightn't be the first time someone's charged with a, an AVO, but when they breach that, okay, they've shown that they're not respecting the piece of paper it's written on. You are now going to wear a tracking, tracking device.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  I think it comes down to, we have different views on AVOs. I, I, I, I think mandatory AVOs are wrong and the police and everyone's overwhelmed, they mean nothing. Whereas I know I've had a conversation with Vincent and you said you'd done some incidental research that targeted AVOs stop.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  So I think you said that, that stops men who have something to lose.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Then I see the guys who are in the criminal system who don't give a shit.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  So, you know, what I see at the moment is we just have this one size fits all.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, and I hear this, I go, oh, you know, the police did nothing. And I go, yeah, because you're the 20 person that's come into the desk that day. You know, and they go out there and nothing's done, nobody wants to make a report. Cause they're so overwhelmed every time they go to something, they've got to put an AVO on someone.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think in, I can't remember if it was last year, year before, just rounding it up, there was 50,000 AVOs taken out in New South Wales. 22,000 were breached. There's just not enough people in the world that could even.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  So that's my thing is why, why aren't we using the tools we have and targeting them? Like if it works on those men.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Then why aren't we targeting those men? And the ones that it doesn't work on, then why aren't we using break, you know what I mean?

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Well, I, I, I think it has to be a multi-layered approach.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, different mechanisms.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  There's one I'm dealing with and this just, it irks me. Audrey Griffin, who was murdered on the central coast, 12 and a half months ago. 19 year old girl, walking home from the hotel and she's found deceased in a river.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  At Gosford. The person that was charged with it, and there was failings in the initial investigation, because they wrote it off as a misadventure, which was outrageous. But when he was charged with the murder, when they eventually agreed it was suspicious and tracked the person down, he was cha- charged with murder. And 11 breaches of AVOs over a, a, a couple of months period of time.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Eleven.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Eleven. Uh now, this wasn't on the the victim, that was on his ex-wife, the breaches were.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  But it doesn't matter, still.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it it shows it shows it shows a pattern.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Fuck me.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  This person went to prison and he took his own life three or four days after he was arrested. But that history there, he had a history of violence. And the system, whether it's, and I'm not blaming individual police, I'm just saying the system didn't identify that. I look at now and I I I look at it and go, what the hell? That was always going to happen, that someone was going to pay for this.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Bloody hell.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  And it wa- it was just a random stranger, she was walking home, he'd been harassing his ex-wife. He was angry and she was killed.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Surely with the technology available with AI and all that. We can take the human error part out of that and and make it at least flag instances.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  I think there needs to, and this is whether it's more training in police or whether we haven't got the experience in in policing. But the offence of stalking always concerns me. And invariably, if you see a murder, there there's been some stalking beforehand. It doesn't seem to be given the the weight of concern that should. Do you do you agree with me?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  No, no, we're not normal normalise it.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I I would agree, but yeah.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Just going back to the coercive control, um and stalking can be a part of that. It's not a criminal offence, like that girl, that woman who had that that list on her fridge.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  That in itself is not a criminal offence.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  It's not a criminal offence if you and I were in a relationship and I just shitbagged you. Mad man, it's not a criminal offence. It's not a criminal offence, and most people do it. There could be in a relationship one person that does the budgeting.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  None of those things are criminal offence in themselves, but collectively, they are. It's coercive control.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  There's more to domestic violence than just the physical, and I would agree totally that. It was, and it's really crass to say. That charging someone with a physical assault, it was much easier and they say cause they had a black eye.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's what you're looking for.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was so much easier.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  But um yeah, I think with domestic violence, so many ways that we've got to try and prevent it. Don't let it repeat, which is the program that you guys are talking about that potentially could break the cycle.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  I think we need to protect victims and like, you know, we talk technology is causing crime. Well, let's use technology to prevent crime. I think these are the type of things that need to, need to be done to really hit on the, hit on the domestic violence.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  We need the, we need the political will. You know, I'll tell you, one of the things I see that's a real problem when I go to meetings with my work and all that. And I was down here at U T S, just up the road, Jess Hill, Tanya Plebisek and another professor was speaking about domestic violence. Hundred and forty in the room.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Let me guess, I'm not, I have no idea what you're gonna say next, I'm gonna take a punt. Four men?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, six maybe. And that's the problem. Until the room, you know, even at the note of violence conference, you know, there was more. But, you know, I, I see the problem until the room's half men, we're not gonna solve it. And Ivan, who runs our Aboriginal stuff, where he was speaking at a Paul Ramsey breakfast this morning. And somebody in the audience said, oh, you know, what do we, what's the problem with domestic violence? And he said, this room. And she was like, you know, there's a hundred people, there was like ninety five women and five men.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  In change too, and I think men do have responsibility with domestic violence. Like, we go out to a pub, you sit round and we're all, all sitting there joking and you'll say something derogatory about your partner. And no one checks you on it.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Domestic violence happens behind closed doors and people that commit it, put little feelers out. Oh, she's gonna yell at me when I get home, she's gonna be in trouble. We should call those blokes out. I, I think good men need to stand up to.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Well, you have to, and, and this is what, when I speak to the boys at the schools, this is what I say to them. My mates don't ring me up and say, let's get smashed, let's, she's a this, they ring me up and go. And this is not, like, it's painful, it hurts.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  We're not saying it's not.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  But that's what, but you don't need to destroy or hurt the person because of that. You know what I mean? And I, I, I say, I say to these boys, I say, you know, the next time.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  You're in that WhatsApp group and they're gonna make the fake nude, be the one. To go, no, I don't wanna do that. I said you can leave the group, but it's even better to go, no, we don't do that. We don't need to do this. You know, that's where change comes. And I say, and I speak to them about, you know, I've been in jail and hung with, you know, not good people and been a not good person myself.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Found some nice friends in there too.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  And, yeah, yeah. But change, one of the things that I learned when I stopped using drugs and that was I had to learn how to be a man. I was very lucky. You know, I went to Narcotics Anonymous and I had a really strong group of men. Who said to me, you know, that shit we got this, it ain't serving us. It doesn't serve us.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I heard this man who's my sponsor, at this, you know, men's meeting, like 250 men, not long out of jail. I was still in rehab and, you know, he spoke about how he loved his wife and his children. And I was thinking, I've never, I'd, and no one in the audience was going, oh, you're weak, fuck, you know, laugh.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  And I was just like, like it lit a flame in me. I thought, wow, like that's, yeah, I didn't even know, but I thought that's what I've been searching for.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  That's what I want, not the, you know, cause people go, oh, you've been shot, you've been in jail. All those things I did cause I was terrified, not cause I was tough.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  You know?

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, being able to sit down with my daughter and have her say to me, oh, I don't like it when you raise your voice. You know what I mean?

• 50:07Speaker 00

  Getting your call on it.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the stuff you wanna do.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Whining back with, right at the start, when we're talking about resilience in men and being able to handle rejection, that's where you see it happen a lot too. Where, yeah, no, I don't wanna go out with you. And it's sort of this sense of entitlement. We've got to change the narrative of the thinking of blokes with that too. Mate, she doesn't like you. Walk away from it. Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. It's not the end of the world. Yeah. No, there's lots of other, and there's lots of reasons why we don't connect, you know? I've been married and divorced. I think you've had a couple.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, all right. You don't have to.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Vince is still doing okay.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  No one's perfect. I don't know how.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  But you know what I mean, like, like it is a, like you have different relationships at different times. Yeah, that's right. Where you're in different places for different reasons. Like, you know, and even people that have been married a long time, you know, separate and move apart, you know, because they've grown, like, I, I, I, I don't think it's a bad thing. No. You know. I don't often, but sometimes I run men's group at Rainbow. I usually let the others, because it's a bit hard on the boss, so it's hard. But when I do, one of the questions I give to them and I say them and that horrifies them, I go, you know, your partner, your wife has every right to have sex with whoever she wants. And what do they go? Fuck, and they just.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  And they're like, no, no. And I go, no, she is. Yeah. As you are.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. The thing is, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. And that's not, there's a difference. That's really hurtful and that's really painful. The, the, the thing for you as a man in it is to remove yourself, to take that and go, well, this is not right for me. That's, that's the, that's the thing you do. Yeah, that's right. Is to go, oh, she's showing me who she is. Yeah. And vice versa. Yeah. Not to go, oh, like, if they're doing that, there's obviously a problem. And, and I think this comes back to the rejection, this idea. Our current system is to think we can grab them and strangle them back into our love.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Uh, never.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  It's crazy. No.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  I don't think it's ever worked.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  No, but this, you know what I mean? And it really challenges them. When I bring it under it, like you can see them. Pretty provocative question. It is. To say. It is, but it's true. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? You know, and honour yourself. Yeah. And, and, and separate. That doesn't mean it's okay and not painful.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  You know, I, I had a good friend of mine, you know, and his brother slept with his partner was, but everyone got through it.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Everyone got through it.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Well, they're tough, tough conversations, but.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  And they went to their mum's funeral together and carried the coffin. And I'm telling you, it was painful and crazy.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's, it's not that, you know, that's what people think, oh, if I don't react like this way, it's not hurting. No, it's hurting me. And I think that comes back to the thing um with rejection. You know, we teach algebra, but we don't teach conflict resolution and relationship skills.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Going very broad here, but should more of that stuff be taught in schools?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, like if they're the formative years, like it's.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  You know, as I said earlier, you know, the research from note of violence and other stuff, they're talking five and six year old boys need to be started, you know.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  Well, that that might be the way we swing the balance back in our favour of what they're exposed to in social media and in today's world. We need to. Bring that into school, like survival skills for life.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at it, and and one of the professors I spoke to at the note of violence had been a school teacher.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And was a professor now, so you know, and I grew up, my mum was a school teacher. I'd never go with a school teacher. I'd fucking be in your in class all the time. Um, but.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  Let it go, Claude.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  There is, there is no other time in life that we potentially have, our citizens.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  All together at the one, yeah, all in one place.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Where they're going six hours a day, like, I, we, we just miss this opportunity.

• 53:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  To really set some parameters of societal expectation.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  It's funny, we've come round, round to this, like the education, because I always, one of my frustrations is the state elections, if it becomes a law and order issue. And we're going to increase police, we're going to crack down on this, we're going to do this. I've always said, look, we don't need more police, but more teachers or better teachers. Or, yeah, quality teachers, I think will uh definitely the way to go.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And I, you know, when I speak to people, I I usually use two narratives, you know, I speak about the impact and trauma that people who go on to commit crimes. Uh, and then there's usually more wealthy people, I don't use that because I don't really give two fucks about little Johnny.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  I speak about, you know, in this country, your private health insurance doesn't help you in a, in a car crash, you go into the public hospital.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  If you want to wait six hours, that's because we were imprisoning Johnny.

• 54:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Because every time you imprison Johnny, that's a teacher, a doctor, a nurse that we don't pay for. And I look at it. You know, and I said to this guy, this tablet is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, you know. I said, can you imagine if a teacher's in a class with eighteen kids instead of twenty eight? Yeah. Little Johnny. Yep. Who i- i- i- in the class of twenty eight is bad and I was little Johnny. Yeah. Gets put up the back and left. Yep. For his own path and ends up in the system that costs, you know, I think I worked out over my criminal history, it cost the community five million.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  It's frightening, isn't it?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  When you put it like that. I appealed my thing to the um Court of Criminal Appeal.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  And that's how, what, that's what we got after spending five million?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  No. Good value for money, good value for money. I appealed one of my cases that are in the district court to the Criminal Court of Appeal and got a five thousand dollar a day public defender. Yeah. You know what I mean? And and and, you know, but honestly, when I look at it, and this is about like, this has taken me years to heal and go, fuck, like, this is not okay. I did it because I was in prison, I had nothing better to do.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  But but uh and understandable from what you're saying, but that's when it it comes down to a way of looking at the problems. Like, if you look at it just from a fiscal point of view, crime costs so much.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  My mum, my daughter's school, I gotta give them paper towel and all that, and I'm thinking, and they're giving me a public defender to, you know. Yeah. Annabelle, who's on the president on the board and spent at Rainbow and spent a lot of years, you know, she goes, give them a hundred and thirty grand a year to buy their drugs, they'll never commit any crime.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Save us all a whole heap of drama.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Tim Watson Munro, the uh criminal psychologist, he he was talking about the the money spent in prisons for each inmate.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  They could virtually have their own psychologist appointed to them twenty four seven.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Well, she, Annabelle talks about that, you could get a social worker to follow, yeah. And and the kids, like in New South Wales, a million dollars to keep a kid in in juvenile prison. And not, I think it's ninety nine point four percent will never be convicted and serve a sentence. Oh, God. All their um juvenile detention is remand.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Right. It's crazy. Wow. It is crazy, a million, you know, imagine if you put that money into schooling and education. And and now, you know, um back in the old days, you could do education and stuff in prison. They've removed all all that, you know, there's no money for it now, whereas again. You know, and I do believe people need to go to prison.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  And, oh, but, you know, I didn't go to prison for something I didn't do.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  You know?

• 57:18Speaker 02

  And you probably could have gone to prison longer.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  A lot, a lot, lot more.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Do you wanna caution him now, or should I?

• 57:23Speaker 01

  You know, um, but I go again.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  It's a bit like the thirteen years we have them at school. If we're gonna have these people, you know, because the, in this country, the worst thing we do to people is remove their liberty.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right? Yeah.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  So I think we have a responsibility to do something while we can have them.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Not fucking have them putting headphones in Qantas things.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? For nine dollars a day, like, surely, the, and again, when I've spoken to people, they're stunned when I go, oh, no, I went to drugs for crime, oh, do they make, no, I didn't do any programs.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Not until the end of my sentence.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hmm.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  They're like, what?

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  You know, and people think if you go to jail for domestic violence, oh, you have to do programs, no.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  You know, so, and, and the general public, when you speak, they go, why don't we know that? And I go, because there's no vested interest in telling you that.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  You know, the criminal system, so police, prisons and courts, is ten billion dollars just in New South Wales.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  You know, I took, um, I, I had a new caseworker starting, she's an English girl at my work and we would do.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  But down at, um, uh, not, the Downing Center was closed, you know, the tall, the federal building or at the other end. Was sitting there, I said, watch this, have a look at all the fat old white guys who are lawyers who have become rich.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Of the disparity in our society.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was just fucking irritating to me.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  And she was just like, I've never looked at it, like, I, I look, like, it's like they were all out of a mold.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Yes, fucking just, yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, it's a business. You know, I spoke at a domestic violence thing a couple of years ago and, uh, last year I was in Hunter Correctional, the same as Macquarie, and this lady coming on up, I'm thinking, oh shit. She goes, oh, I, I was there when you spoke, I haven't met, I was stopped thinking about that when you explained. It's a business, the money.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Hmm hmm.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Like, people have got rich off this.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Oh, it's a, it's an industry.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  It's a, yeah.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  It's so immoral.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, it is. You know what I mean? Like, you go, you go to trial, a trial costs a hundred thousand dollars a day.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And the poor bastards at Saint Mary's, Mount Druitt, Penrith, they can't afford that.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  No, no. And that's why I say there's, you know, three levels of justice. There's the white system, the black system, and then the one you can afford.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  And they're all vastly different outcomes. You know, I think there was some stuff today I saw on, uh, in the, in the news or something about, you know, that a black person was more likely to be shot than a, a white offender, you know?

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, domestic violence in far western New South Wales, it's by the Bureau Crime Statistics.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  It's just nearly four times higher than, than Sydney.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  We were saying the, the Aboriginal guy who's on the run still.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  You know, who killed two or three, you know, but it's not in the media.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  We were talk, talking off camera about, uh, well, uh, we're recording this a couple of days after Desi Freeman was shot and, uh, killed by police, but there was also that triple murder up in, uh, northern New South Wales, where a person is on the run.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Haven't heard of it.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, not to me.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I haven't heard about that.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  No, it went out of the media quick.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  They're Aboriginal.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  There, there is different outcomes.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  I, I had, uh, journalists contacting me after Desi Freeman had been shot and, uh, I, I mentioned that. Well, yeah, that's one person that was on the run. There is another person that's on the run here in New South Wales that's murdered three people. But again, that's a disparity in resources that are put into, uh, uh, put into things.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Well, it is, i- i- and, and I'm not, obviously not been a police officer. If I wasn't a criminal, I would have, would have, it would have been exciting.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  And if we, if we weren't police, we would have been, oh, I am a criminal, but it's, uh, at least I've done both things.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  No, and, but if you look at the Desi Freeman, he shot two police, which is bad, but they're actually doing a job that one of the risks is that you can get shot.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  The three people that the Aboriginal guy murdered.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Were just citizens.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  They, they, they, nothing in their day was said that they could get killed.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  You know? And I, I, I, I don't, it's not okay.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  No, I know, I know.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  But it is. You know, it's a risk of their job.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  So you know that it is, and especially when they went to that, because I'm pretty sure they had their bulletproof vest on. So there was a high risk arrest they were going to. So they knew there was risks involved in it, but the resources you look at that are put into that. And I think it's part of what you got back to because it puts fear in the community. If you're willing to kill the police, that scares us. Because if the police can't protect us, then we're in trouble.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, that's, that's right. That's why it's got to be looked at, the resources put into there as they should be put into the other one.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  Guys, we're, we're running out of time.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  And didn't talk anything about what we wanted to.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  I just throw my notes out. Sorry, Vince, we haven't got time to talk about your remote control submarine.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Afternoon.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  But there's, and we didn't get time to talk about the prison system and all that. But let's, let's try and get you guys back in a, in a couple of months. And I may as well keep these notes because I'll just be able to use them, use them next time. Because I didn't think I'd be able to control YouTube. But with the, with the program, on, on the serious note, I seriously hope people start to look at ways of, you know, changing the problem because if we're doing the same thing over and over again, that hasn't worked, well, it's, it's not going to work.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  It's insanity.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Well, that's the definition.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Isn't it?

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  So, yeah, good, good luck with it. Stay angry.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  We will.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  We will.

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  Don't get locked up saying Jubelin said to do this, but stay angry, keep annoying the politicians. And let's, let's get you guys back again in a couple of months' time. See if we've made any progress.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Hopefully with some good news.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always great to catch up, either on camera or off camera.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  Now, can I just ask one question before we go? That brace on your elbow, is that an injury still from being thrown off the roof?

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  I was doing curls for girls and I blew a tricep.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  All right, muscles, we'll, we'll wrap it up. But guys, seriously, I, I've enjoyed the, enjoyed the chat and, and the work that you guys are doing too. And Claude, you're, you're just inspirational. Where we catch up at the end of the year function at Rainbow House, it just blows me away. And the respect that everyone shows you there is testament to what you've done. Thank you. And, and what you, you're doing.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  And thoroughly deserved that nomination for Australian of the Year.

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yeah. Well, well done. And, and Vince, thanks for, yeah.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Thanks for your policing career. And I always enjoyed when our paths crossed. But the work that you're doing now, and I see you when you come up angry or commenting on matters to do with crime. And I think you always give a good, honest account and a good, honest viewpoint. So keep up the good work.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Thank you. Always a pleasure.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  Okay, cheers.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  See ya.