Extremism, the manosphere, and how the algorithm traps kids: Rebekah Nijsen Pt. 2

How does a normal teenage boy go from gaming videos and self-improvement content to hate-filled online groups? In Part 2, former police officer Rebekah Nijsen, founder of Lighthouse Cyber Education, sits down with Gary to break down the pipeline. From AI-driven feeds to manosphere influencers to private, paywalled groups, she explains how teen boys are drawn in with promises of popularity and success, then exposed to red-pill ideology, lookmaxing pressure, and increasingly extreme views. Rebekah also unpacks doxing and swatting, how a leaked address can lead to armed police at your front door and what parents can do tonight, from getting devices out of bedrooms to spotting red flags early and knowing when to call police. You can watch I Catch Killers on Youtube here. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  The manosphere isn't just a toxic online culture anymore. It's radicalising our kids and fueling real-world violence. Former detective Rebecca Neeson has watched this transformation happen firsthand. In part two, she reveals how this radicalisation is happening right under our noses and what she's doing to fight back. Take a listen. Rebecca Neeson, welcome back. Part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  I was watching something on the 7.30 report and it was Detective Superintendent Foley, who I believe you know from the policing area.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  The term doxing, and this is how they intimidate people. And one of the terms is doxing. And I think for us trying to get our head around it, understanding the terminology is important. What are we talking about when doxing, the word doxing is used?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  It's getting someone's private, personal information and publicly exposing it or giving it out to the public for everyone to see. So we're talking about names, dates of birth, your address, your phone number, anything where people can identify where you live or how to contact you. And that's what doxing is. So they basically get someone's information, whether that be through tricking or through, you know, building the rapport. So someone gives it to them and then they publicly give it out to everyone and expose it

• 2:19Speaker 01

  so that people can then target them to further intimidate or humiliate them.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  And that's used as a method of control, like the threat of doxing. This is what we're going to do if you don't comply. And how do they put the information out? In what forum do they put the information out?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Multiple. It could be as deep as the dark web.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Which is basically still the internet, but the deepest part of the internet where you need additional software to access. Or it could just be on places like Craigslist or it could be even on social media.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  The other one they talk about, which is used as a threat as well, is called swatting. What are we talking about when I use the term swatting?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so swatting kind of goes hand in hand with doxing because doxing means you're getting someone's home address or phone number out to the public. And then people get that information to set up hoax emergency services calls. So what that could look like is someone calls up and says, "I've just seen someone leave this specific address with a gun." And now all of a sudden, and that could be the home address of the person that's just been doxed. And now all of a sudden, you've got armed police, TRG, attending that person's home address, thinking that someone is there with a handgun.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  And you can imagine what kind of trauma is inflicted to that person, but also what a waste of police resources.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  And people have actually in fact been harmed whilst that's occurred because you know, when you're rocking up to an address, whether it's real or not, you don't know that. And as a police officer, you're going in there with the threat that someone has a loaded firearm. You're going to respond to that threat.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. It is, all those things, they're concerning. And they're on a scale that's much broader because of the digital world and digital platforms, isn't it? Covers such a wide area.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So you could have an instance where you have a student that doesn't like a teacher, finds out their home address and now all of a sudden sets up a swatting call to then further intimidate and humiliate a teacher that years ago, they wouldn't have that ability to be able to do that.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm gonna jump into another area, but I think it ties up with what we're talking about. Manosphere.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Tell us what manosphere is. I think we've all heard about it now, but your take on it and how it impacts on what we're talking about today.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So I guess the idea of the manosphere is not new. You know, growing up, there has always been the desire for the alpha male. But I guess what has kind of evolved now is it's moved on to digital communities. So the manosphere is essentially a whole bunch of digital communities that go through and educate or tell males who they should be to be popular, to be sexually attractive, to be successful in life. You need to do these specific things. And they operate in digital communities.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  So that could be Telegram, that could be Discord. Some of their content could be on mainstream social media. And then they sort of, I guess, young boys in particular, they hear something that resonates with them and they go, "I want to be successful. I want to have wealth." That kind of makes sense. And that's how they're drawn in. And now all of a sudden with the AI algorithms, they're showing more and more of that content because whatever we have our eyes on for the most time online, the AI algorithms say, show you more of the same content. And now all of a sudden, they're being bombarded with this same message

• 6:38Speaker 01

  of what it means to be a man in 2026. And then they then go further into these then communities where these online influencers create their own private groups, where they give more information and more kind of broadcasting what they're views are of what it means to be a successful, wealthy, good-looking guy.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Okay. Now, the danger there, I would imagine, is first of all, that someone puts themselves on a platform that spreads so wide that they're influencing kids whose main form of influence is their digital world because that's the world that they operate in and know and respect. So you've got these idiots describing what a real man should be. Whereas a generation before, it might have been influence from the father or a neighbour, a sports coach, a teacher as the appropriate male role models. Now you've got these lunatics, I'll call them, I'll probably get attacked for that.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  But these lunatics that are out there giving advice to young, impressionable kids. And whether it spreads across the digital world, they're taking that as gospel.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely, Gary. And to further that, they're making money from it. So then they're exploiting these kids because they're drawing them in to say, "Oh, you, to join my group, you've got to pay certain money and I'll give you content that other people won't get access to." And so they're making money out of exploiting young men's vulnerability.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  And it's important to know, well, what makes an online influencer, right? Because we talk about online influencers, so what is it? And it could be simply as, "I have an idea." Or, "You have an idea." You decide, "Well, I'm going to make a video about it. I'm going to share it online." And one person views it, likes it. Another person views it, likes it, shares it with someone else. And then all of a sudden, it goes viral, meaning that multiple people, a lot of people are actually watching this content and getting people onto the platform. The platform turns around and goes, "Well, I'm gonna give you some money now because you're getting people onto my platform.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Make more content." So you do, and now all of a sudden, you're an online influencer. But no one checked, is it true? Is it real? Is it helpful? You could literally make anything up. And if it goes viral, all of a sudden, people take it as gospel.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  And they start following you and hearing more of what you say. And that's the danger when our kids are only hearing one voice. That's when it can start getting toxic.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  And the platform that they've created, there's no critical analysis of the information or scrutiny of the information. And they've probably been given more power than, yeah, they deserve or more influence than they deserve. And kids get caught up in it. And I would imagine it grows exponentially when someone becomes popular. Was it Andrew Tate? Was he one of the ones that were put up there as, "Look at this perfect role model"? I think he's facing charges at the moment.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  He might, is he, I'm not sure. He might even be in custody at the moment on some charges. But these are the people that are influencing our kids.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And they have pretty, you know, talking about exploiting people, they have some pretty dark theories of what it believes to be a man and really humiliating anybody else as a weaker man if they don't sort of fit up to that standard.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Let alone then how they teach them how to treat women.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Again, some of the stuff that I've picked up on through the research, the core ideologies and themes, the red pill, a metaphor borrowed from the film The Matrix.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  What's that about? Because I've heard that term, but I haven't really given it much thought on what they're talking about there.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So The Matrix, the movie with Keanu Reeves. Uh, he gets the choice of taking the red pill or the blue pill. Now, the blue pill means that he wakes up the next day and he's still living in the illusion of this is his world. And it's not real, but to him, it's the illusion of that's his reality or take the red pill. You wake up in the morning and then all of a sudden you will know the truth. And so the analogy to the red pill with the manosphere is that society is set up for men to fail, that working the nine to five job.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  You will never get wealthy, you will never be successful and you need to pull away from the social norm. And so it's basically also saying that like femininity is dangerous to men because it's actually taking away from men's rights to be dominant and to be assertive. And so as the government and society are sort of putting an emphasis on that, that they're actually against men. So that's sort of the idea to the the red pill analogy.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Okay, but besides the obvious of the dangers of instructing men that this is the way to go. Is this type of influence, like social media influence that people have? Is it providing a soft entry into radicalising them in a more sinister way? Or that's sinister enough, but radicalising them even further? Is this just a soft entry? We've got all these dis- confused young men, I would say, confused young men and they've gone, okay, manosphere, that's the path that we're going to follow. So we get them all on board with that. Then they could um hit them up with other radical ideas or ideations.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And you already are seeing it with some of the um look maxing. You know, online identities that are out there and influencers and they are live.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Just a so- sorry, sorry.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Look maxing, what is it?

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Now, I I again, I've got to, you know, keep up to up to date. But is that um related to those idiots that are hitting themselves with hammers on their cheeks to get more prominent cheeks or jaws and and that type of thing?

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. So about um, I guess there's two aspects of it. Um, there's doing physical changes to your body, like you described, or taking like testosterone replacement therapy. Um, and you know, steroids and things to change your appearance that way. That's that's kind of what the look maxing culture is about.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  So you're not suggesting we should all hit, tap our cheeks with hammers to uh get that uh that look on our face?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Certainly not. I think the world would be a pretty boring place if we all look the same, wouldn't it?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  All all look the same. I've spent my whole life trying to duck getting hit in the face. I'm not going to do it do it myself.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I I suppose we're laugh laughing about it and we've got to laugh in in the darkness, otherwise you you're not going to survive. But it's almost like the world gone mad.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, and I think that now that we're in a realm where so much of our our younger generation are being influenced by their peers and by online influencers. And what it takes to be an online influencer, it really could take any turn. Because it's just about the next digital culture. You know, the next thing and the next thing and what's this, you know, new generation going to come up with? I mean, we're already seeing it with AI. So we talk about online influencers. There's actually online influencers that are purely AI.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  And so our companies are creating these uh completely fictitious uh profiles, giving them a social media presence, even video content, pretending they're they're at Wimbledon or they're down at the beach and selling products. So they're telling our kids, hey, if you want to look beautiful, buy this product while using AI, which isn't real, which sets them up to fail because no one can look as polished and as good as AI. Because we're humans.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Let's now start talking about what we can do to um look at the red flags, where you've got concerns and the way that we can address this and safeguard against these type of things happening.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think this is a really important part because uh I want to make sure that parents are alerted and are aware, but they're not fearful. Because I don't think the answer is to throw all technology in the bin and go back to, well, we just don't connect to the internet anymore. I don't think that that will help because they're going to access it in other areas which aren't safe. So we want to make sure we look at it as a layered approach. So a very uh military kind of policing term is defence in depth. So what we're talking about is having that layered approach

• 16:42Speaker 01

  that when um one kind of thing that you set up, a rule or boundary is broken or compromised, that there's other levels that is still going to protect your family. And that's what we want to make sure. So we can't just set one thing that's just going to fix everything and we don't have to do anything else. One of the things that I really want to encourage parents to consider. It is very alarming when I go into schools and even speak to kids as young as in year three. And they are accessing their devices which connect to the internet in their bedrooms. Why is that alarming?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Kids are going to do their most riskiest behaviours and things when their parents aren't supervising them. That's when they're going to take that picture. That's when they're going to say those things that they wouldn't say if their parents were around. So I get that a lot of these games have headsets, they can be very loud. It can be very messy, but putting that in a child's room doesn't always mean that it's safe. Just because our kids are quiet doesn't mean that they are safe. And so I really want to encourage, get your devices out of your kids' bedrooms.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Put it in a central place in the house where mum or dad or brother or sister can walk past. And then if you see your child quickly shutting the laptop down or going shh, shh, shh, shh, don't say that because mum's around. That's when you start going, okay, this is an opportunity where I can kind of do some investigating and go, what's going on? Because they're probably doing something that isn't safe. It's not about control, it's about safety.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  And obviously this needs to be a layered approach in the sense that when you have super young kids, you set the boundaries as parents and say, this is how it's going to be. And as they get older, start involving them in the conversation a bit. A good way to start this, if your kids already have their devices in the bedroom, is at the very least, late at night when they go to bed. Early in the morning, make sure the devices aren't there. When I spoke to um online predators and and pedophiles when I was in the police and I interviewed them and said, why did you pick this kid? They said because they were an easy target.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  So if you can't consider that, consider a burglar, right? Someone who's trying to break into your house. They're trying to look for open windows. They're trying to look for open doors. Something's not locked. If it's all locked and it's Fort Knox, they're going to move to the next house. And that's what we want to make sure that we set up for our kids. We want to make it slightly harder so the majority of people just move on. And by getting the devices out of their bedrooms late at night, early in the morning, when that's when the online predators know that parents aren't there.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  That's when we can start going, okay, well, we're making it a little bit harder for them. And the times where they're tired and going to be making those riskier kind of choices, we're taking the internet away. Because they should be sleeping. They need to be sleeping for school the next day. You speak to many teachers these days and a lot of the kids are rocking up to school so tired because they've been on their devices before they get to school. And they've got that digital fatigue and they need to be learning. So I think number one, that is a really good idea. Get devices out of bedrooms.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  I think as parents, we need to embrace the mess. So when our kids are younger, um it's loud, it's physically messy, there's stuff everywhere. But it's either that or they're on their devices and they're quiet in the corner. One is better than the others. Sometimes mess and and loudness is good. As our kids get older, the messiness is probably more their attitudes. But as parents, we need to be able to have that mess in our homes. We need to be able to have and allow safe spaces in our homes where our kids can tell us what they really think.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  You know, have a chat with your kids and say, hey, what do you think about Andrew Tate? Have you heard some of his stuff? And your kids might go, well, yeah, I agree with this is what he said. And you go, okay, I can see why that's appealing, but have you heard his other stuff? What do you think about his other stuff? And we can start shaping and modelling and teach them that just because you agree with something they say, doesn't mean that the rest of it is gospel or healthy. And you can agree with one thing they say, but that doesn't mean that you have to kind of follow the footsteps and agree with everything. And so try and encourage them to have different people that they're sort of getting advice from, I guess.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  And allowing them in the home to be able to say what they're really thinking. Because if we don't give them that platform at home to do that, they're gonna go online. They're gonna find the digital community that agrees with them. And then that's where it can get toxic or not always helpful.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Well, Rebecca, you're talking very uh basic uh principles on how to uh stop this type of thing happening, but it's coming back to uh core values too, isn't it? And the way you're describing the the family home, I'm thinking of the the family homes, a different type of family homes. And you could have your kids being quiet because the parents are on their on their phones and and going through their social media and all that. So it's it's a collective problem, isn't it? We really need to um, you know, just change the way we're approaching things. Because otherwise, it's an environment where these type of predators can uh can flourish.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think, Gary, the way that we model it to our kids is going to be more powerful than what we say. Because they are going to be watching us. And if we're glued to our devices and we're just looking after reel, after reel, after reel, after reel, because we've had a really tough day and we just wanna zone out by doom scrolling.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  But what are we actually role modelling to our kids? Because if we do that and we turn around to them and say, get off your phone, stop doom scrolling, there's no weight in that. And so, yeah, we probably, as parents, do need to have a hard look at ourselves and go, what examples are we showing to our kids?

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Well, what what point do you think you should uh educate the kids on what potentially could happen? Like, I I'm thinking when when my uh son and daughter were teenagers, if I said to them, and it'd be an embarrassing conversation, but if I said to them that uh, yeah, just be careful what you send on on your phones, because if you send that, someone could do this and then blackmail you and and different things. At what time, at what stage do you tell the kids? Because they've grown up in a world, young kids at the moment, they don't know anything other than the digital world. At what point in time do you start educating them about the risk? Like, we were educated, just be careful if you're walking home in the dark, you know, don't talk to a stranger.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, make sure you let us know where you're going, that type of instruction that we gave the kids before the digital era. Um, at what point in time do we start educating the kids on the risk that their phone or computer poses to them?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  I think it needs to be a multi-factor approach in the sense that it's not just one voice that our kids are hearing. And I think um the way that schools are partnering with uh, you know, cyber security educators like myself, where we go into the schools and chat with the kids about the risks. Age appropriate, um certainly with um, you know, year threes, we're not going to be talking about sextortion. Um, or or anything like that. We're we're talking pretty basic. Some things you see online are good for you, some things aren't.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  So it certainly needs to be age appropriate, but I think as schools are doing that, that's really important. Generally, then they do a parent session. So then it's good for them, parents, to sort of go and and get educated themselves so they know what the risks are, because I think a lot of parents don't know what the risks are. And then once they actually then know the risks, I think if we're going to give our child a mobile phone, because let's face it, it's a mini computer. I think we need to be having these conversations with our kids because we're giving them the ability to be able to take a selfie and then send it online, right? Because they all have cameras.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  So I think before we do that, as parents, we need to have conversations with our kids and let them know the capability of the device that we're giving them.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Because otherwise, they're gonna find out and they'll probably find out by their peers at school because there's older siblings that already have access to that. So I think if we are going to give them the tech, we need to have the conversations to say, this is what could happen. So that then hopefully then they can also make an educated choice before they do it.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, when when you talk parenting, there's, yeah, debates of what's the school's responsibility? What are the parents' responsibilities? Are the schools, as in the wider education system, are they getting involved in educating kids about this? Or are they throwing it back, well, that's the parents' responsibility? You're working in the schools. Is there much um, oh, there's definitely a need, but is it receptive that uh the schools need to play their part as well?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think most schools are. Um, it is certainly great because a lot of the cyberbullying happens outside of hours. It affects the culture of the classroom and it affects what happens in the in the school. But the actual um offending happens outside of hours. So in that sense, the school has limited ability to be able to do anything about it. But one thing that they have been doing is by partnering with cyber safety educators to say, well, we're trying to educate the students as well. Um, and then it's about working together, I think.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  So rather than going, it's the school's problem, it's a parent's problem, let's work together to make sure the same voice is being spoken to the kids.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Okay. Um, I uh sorry, we got sidetracked. You were saying about, yeah, protecting the red red flags, about uh the fact that uh not letting the kids sit in the corner or in their room on their own, on their uh, on their phone or on their computer, about uh devices not available to them in the early hours of the morning. Other things, you were you were going through a checklist of uh advice?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's certainly red flags to look out for. If our kids are starting to isolate themselves, going into their bedrooms, not engaging with their siblings, um not coming out at dinnertime. Their tone and their language is starting to get more extreme, more, you know, racist comments about uh white supremacy, if we're looking right wing. The way that they're treating their siblings is starting to get a bit cruel or the way they're they're dealing with their animals. That's some massive red flags, in particular to seven, six, four.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  If you do identify any of them, then you need to speak up straight away. And you generally need outside help. And where we're talking about, you know, psychologists or or counselling because we talk about love bombing, there's a there's a strong connection that is built. And even though they're getting exploited, it can be very hard to just break. I guess it's a bit like domestic violence. You know, there's a strong connection there, even though the person might go, what's happening to me is not right. It can be really hard to break that connection. And we're talking about kids.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  So I don't think as parents, we just sort of sit back and go, well, let's just wait and see what happens. We need to act straight away and we need to get outside help in to be able to help our children. You know, simple things, if if they're wearing long sleeves and it's in the middle of summer, um, you know, it's potential that they could be self-harming. Um, so if anything kind of flags up like that, that's when we wanna make sure we act straight away.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  At what what point would you suggest people should bring issues to the attention of police? If they they think their kid's been groomed by uh someone online, at what what point in time? And and how would you go about it?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, um.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Each jurisdiction has their own state police. Or federally you have the ACE, the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation. They do specialise in terms of seven, six, four and are very aware of it. I would say you know your kids and you know as a parent when things don't seem right. If you don't have the technical ability to understand where to look for these chats. Cause remember, a lot of them are secret kind of places.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  And I, I'd dare say that would be ninety percent of parents.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Majority of them, right? So I would say if you're starting to see sort of these red flags. And you're having a look at their devices and they do have access to their devices sort of in secret spaces. Um, then I would say that I'd be jumping in and making a report.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Because you need to do something like we can't just sit back and go, oh, well, I haven't seen the messages on the app, so I can't respond yet because it might be too late.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  So I would say do a report, at least speak to someone who can help. And then they might be able to guide you to say, okay, have a look at their device. Is there a Telegram app on there? Is there a Discord app on there? And they might be able to help you kind of then navigate to see if there's substance behind that or not.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  It's shifting our thinking to what a crime is too. I, I think that, uh, yeah, because we can't see it, hear it, feel it, touch it. What, what am I gonna report? I think something's happened on my, uh, child's phone or, or computer. It's changing the thinking to where we're at now in the digital world. Just focusing on policing for a sec. Yeah, there's different services that police provide. Is this another service that police might need the expertise in that? If I'm the parent, I've got my kid, my kid's starting to behave strangely. They won't let me look at the phone. I'm, I'm sure there's something, something's going on.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  They're being communicating. I caught them at two o'clock in the morning texting someone. Do we need these type of expertise in, uh, in the local police station where parents could go down and say, hey, I've got my kid's phone here, the computer. Do you think that's a, a way that we can address this?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I think that would be tough in the sense of resourcing every kind of, you know, potential police jurisdiction with that. And then the expertise to go with that from, um, purely just a budget point of view could be very difficult.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Hey Rebecca, you're still thinking like a police officer. We're out of the police now. We go, policing is not about making a profit, it's about reducing crime and making the community feel safe. So, yeah, the damage it's done, if we forgot about the budget, it would be the ideal situation, don't you think?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Abs- absolutely, because if we can help our parents and give them the technical resources and, and ability to prevent serious harm occurring. See, the problem with policing, as you and I know, is serious harm occurs and then we respond. It's reactive, but if we could get in the proactive space and actually help it while the grooming or while the, you know, abuse has still happened, but at a lower severity to the real high risk stuff, then absolutely, I think that that would be hugely beneficial, helpful.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Um, and it would go away of actually preventing it and stopping it happening.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  And, and I, and I, I raise it because I, I think we have got to look at things a little bit differently. And proactive policing, you know, we didn't have domestic violence liaison officers at police station years ago. And anyone that, uh, you know, walked in, people had, uh, didn't have the expertise and we created those positions. I think, you know, if we're gonna try and stay ahead of the game, we, we need that sort of expertise there. And, yeah, it might even, again, thinking outside the square four policing because we're very suspicious of anyone that's not a sworn officer that, you know, working in the, in the police station.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  But maybe we don't need a sworn police officer to be an expert in this field and, and just attached to the station. That could help advice because I'm looking at it from my point of view and I, yeah. I, I'm, I'm not the smartest pencil in the pack and not the most technically savvy person. I've got reasonable skills, but I'd be lost if I was trying to, um, yeah, explain what's going on, that my child has changed the attitude, like I don't know what they're doing on the computer. I'd have a look and then just give up and wonder, what am I gonna do?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  A key is education because when we know about it and when we can uh, uncover and expose the really darkest elements of the internet. When we bring it into the light, that's when we can actually start doing something about it, you know? That's where the shame or the fear is not there and we can actually be aware of what threats are facing our kids when they actually go online and just wanna play a game. Like, let's face it, they're going online to play a game. They should be able to go online and play a game and then play a game with their mates.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Sadly, that's where a lot of the exploitation happens, but they should be able to do it. And we need to say, okay, but parents, you need to be aware if you are going to let your kids play without supervision, without the parental controls, without knowing who they are engaging with, they are very real risks here. And they need to be aware of that.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, and we can't really, I, I, I think you would disadvantage your child too much if you just banned them from, uh, you know, getting on the internet or you can't, they, they wouldn't survive in this world. They, they might if they, you know, live like a recluse, but they need to be digitally aware just to survive in day, day to day. So you can't really, that option's not there. So it is very much about education. You left the police after sixteen years. Any, any reason that you, you left the police?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there were a few reasons. One of the main reasons I left is because I felt like I could uh, help people more by being away from the constraints of law enforcement. Um, because the constraints of law enforcement looks at, is there an offence? We investigate the offence and, and move on, but what about the rest of the people? And, um, I tried a little bit of consultancy initially and then sort of happened upon, upon the business, um, by a, an ex, uh, police officer who was doing similar sort of things in, in WA and, and got a chat with him and

• 38:31Speaker 01

  he sort of encouraged and said, look, start your own business and all sort of, um, watch me for a bit and then find your feet and then go from there. And that to me was about, one, I had my own family and do, dealing with the trauma of what I was seeing in the police was difficult to come home to. Having my own family and being present physically, emotionally with my family, having to deal with all that. And my family was more important than my career, so I made a decision to sort of step back and focus on my family. But equally, I wanted to be part of the prevention.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  I thought, well, what if we could prevent real, the real bad stuff happening, the real serious harm that when it affects a child, it affects them for their life, it affects their family, it affects everyone in their school community, it has such a rippling negative effect. What if we could speak to kids to educate them to say, hey, you're not invincible? And these are a few tactics that online predators use so that they're aware. And then sit with parents and say, this is what the online world looks like.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So this is what your kids are facing, so that then hopefully they feel that they are more empowered to set boundaries. And the reasons why they're setting boundaries, not because of control, but to protect their kids. And hopefully have parents and kids working together as opposed to my parents are from this generation that didn't have technology. I'm a digital native and no one understands and that's kind of where the danger lies.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've just explained it there and digital native, is that a terminology that's been used for the generation of kids that have grown up in the digital world?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. You, you get a, um, a, a baby or a toddler and they know how to switch on your iPhone or take photos, uh, before anyone's even shown them how to do it.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  And that is where the disconnect with the, the different eras that we've grown up, up in, isn't it? And that's where I, I struggle with the stuff that we've talked about today. Cause I'm thinking, I wanna, I know how to keep people in line and to keep people safe, but I'm not as familiar with the digital world as, uh, the kids that I'd be trying to, uh, to help. And that's where, uh, it can become very problematic at this particular point in time. Another generation, everyone will be digitally aware, but at this point in time.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, but equally, I think we need to make sure that we foster different, uh, relationships and provide different role models, real people to our kids. So that they can see positive examples in the real world of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. Um, and that they're not just being exposed to the toxic stuff online. So I think we all have a part to play.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  I definitely have a part to play, but that, like with social media, one thing that, uh, I, I've said to a lot of people is that. It's given people a bigger platform than most people have earned the right to have that platform. Like you get the, you get on social media and you're talking to hundreds of thousands. Whereas before, it was only a selected few that would have an influence over such a wide, wide group. But now, anyone can get on it. And if you, you know, you hit on something that people are attracted to, all of a sudden you become what you described as an influencer.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And sadly, the shock and awe factor increases the chance of getting more hits.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  It's concerning. Um, just back to policing, you, you said, taking, taking things home and hard to switch off and all that. Any working police officer that I've spoken to has said or talked about that, that same, same type of thing. With the work that you were doing, especially like anyone that's worked in child protection, my hat goes off to them, I think, yeah, it's such a tough, tough field to work in. Is there any way that when you were in the police, you could have better dealt with it, or, or the organisation could have better dealt with it? Because we're gonna need police, we're gonna need people working in those dark areas. How can we help people when they're working in those fields?

• 43:22Speaker 01

  I think we need to, as an agency, understand the red flags as well. And understand that our people are humans. And they're not just security guards, or they're not just robots that we can keep churning out and keep churning out the numbers. But actually see that we're physical people with emotions, with mental health. And we have to understand that every person only has a certain amount of trauma that they can deal with before it starts leaking over. And so we need to identify the signs before it starts leaking over. But when it does start leaking over, we need to make sure we're supporting them. And not

• 44:05Speaker 01

  just throwing them out as medically retired, or they're no use now. But actually supporting them because sadly, the trauma that they have been exposed to because of the job protecting the community, has negatively affected them. And when we isolate them even further, it gets worse. And I think as an agency, we, we need to get better at that.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it would help if, and I speak to a lot of people that have had, yeah, a lot of time in, in the police and they might have come out damaged. And they come to the realisation that if they addressed it when it occurred, maybe they'd still be in the police and, and functioning. But as an organisation, and I'm talking generally, because you worked in WAI, I worked in New South Wales, you don't want to speak up if you, you're doing it tough. Because if you speak up, you, you'll find that you, um, yeah, you're gonna get flicked to some area that where you don't want to work, or people are gonna try and steer clear of you. Um, it's a, it's a hard environment to be able to put your hand up

• 45:14Speaker 00

  and say, hey, I need help. Just change, uh, change what I'm doing for a bit and I'll be back and ready to, uh, go at it again.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  And I know with myself, I saw psychologists while I was in the police.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Uh, but for me, they were external to the police. I mean, I know that I had to pay for that service. And if I did it through the police, it would have been covered. But again, that, that stigma that was held to, if you sought help, especially in relation to your mental health, it was gonna affect you down the track with promotions and, uh, you know, trying to make sergeants. Um, for me, that was so real that I went, well, I need help, but I'm just gonna almost not tell anyone at work. So I can deal with it and then come back and be okay.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  There is a bit of that, isn't it? In the police, if you, uh, in homicide, we've had to see a psychologist, I think it's start, or they boarded in. And I think it was a good idea. It made it compulsory once every 12 months. It might be six months now. I'm, I'm not sure. We had to sit down with a psychologist. But, um, I remember, we, we also had to do some tests, some psychometric testing and, and different, different things to make sure that we were right to continue on. I remember answering the questionnaire honestly, and then getting dragged, dragged in. And, uh, well, what did you mean by that? And I think the question was, yeah, do you think someone's trying to kill you? And I answered yes. And all of a sudden, the red flag went up and said, well, you, I must

• 46:48Speaker 00

  be paranoid. And then I explained, no, someone is actually trying to, trying to kill me. We've got information about it. They go, oh, well, that's put in perspective. But the point being, it wasn't, it wasn't kept private. It was sort of, yeah, you, you've gone in there. And I might have said, yeah, I, I might have really opened up, but it, it, it stopped me having the trust to be able to open up and say, oh, I might be struggling. I'm going through this at the moment. Because it became, uh, became a very public very quickly.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is, um, you know, even though they probably told you that it wouldn't be, right?

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, we'll, we'll wrap it up here, but just thank you for your service as a, a police officer. And I'm, I'm always heartened when I speak to a police officer and they talk about the importance of empathy in the, the work that they do in policing. And that tells me a lot about the, the way you would have gone about your, your job. And I know that type of, uh, type of approach comes, comes at a cost that, uh, you know, you've touched on that, that did on you. But also the work you're doing now, because this is something that we're all sitting here with, yeah, eyes closed, not realising how dangerous this, uh, this digital world is. And, and we need people like yourself for waking us all up to the fact that, uh, there are very real dangers out there.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, Gary.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Cheers.