Escaping the sovereign citizen movement: Brodie Finegan Forbes Pt. 2

When his community started making their own weapons and scheming to kill cops, Brodie Finegan Forbes knew it was time to leave the sovereign citizen movement. Scared, alone, and homeless, he did the worst thing a sovcit can do - he went to the police. In part two of his chat with Gary, Brodie takes us inside his journey of escaping the sovereign citizen movement, and shares what he’s learnt since. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  In part two of my chat with former sovereign citizen, poet, writer, and a unique person, Brody Finegan Forbes, we dissect the sovereign citizen ideology. We point out the failings and dangers of the movement. And we also bring in a bit of poetry, which is a first for I Catch Killers. And as far as I know, the first time it's been on a true crime podcast. I learned a lot about the sovereign citizen movement from Brody. And I think you will too. Have a listen. Brody, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Thank you, Gary.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  We left you in part one and you were fully committed to the sovereign citizenship ideology at that stage. But things turned around. One of the quotes in the book that you wrote, and I'll just read it out. This is a hallmark of a sovereign citizen ideology. "Tendency to misinterpret law and legislation is a hallmark of sovereign citizenship ideology. The misinterpretations create fear, spread misinformation, and give rise to conspiracy theories and pseudo-legal concepts which self-proclaimed gurus exploit for profit." What we've talked about, and I followed you the whole way through. You lost me on a couple of things in part one.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  But in essence, that's what sovereign citizenship ideology is all about?

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. It enables people to attribute to malice what can easily be explained by just simple incompetence. You also see a lot of, a lot of course selling. Course selling, you know, that, that happens in the manosphere and all, and like in Forex trading and all these sort of things where people sell a course because apparently they've made a million dollar business. Uh, but when you go looking for the million dollar business, it doesn't actually exist. The purpose of the course is to sell the course. That same thing pops up in the sovereign citizen world.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Now, you had a task during the, during the break and uh, this will be a first for iCatch Killers and we've been doing it for a long time. But uh, you kindly offered to prepare a poem for your appearance on iCatch Killers. Are you prepared to read that poem out?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I have the perfect one.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Okay. It's called The Public Eye. "I'm nervous, yes. I feel the pull to be something else. But I know something well, that I can try my best, I can orient, but the truth of me will be the only thing left." There you go.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Wow. That was uh, that was pretty powerful. You are a poet. Right. Very good. I suppose you've written quite a few poetry books. So yeah, that was, that was good. Before we get back into uh, sovereign uh, citizenship, what uh, drives you to poetry? What's uh, what's your interest in poetry? Where does that stem from?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  It feels like it's known me before.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  That's poetic in itself.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Ooh. Yes, it's, it's, it's the one thing I know how to do. Everything else it feels like I'm, I'm a, a, a person, a false face. Like I'm pretending to be whatever it is. This is the one thing that's, it's, it's my connection with the divine. It's um. It's therapeutic, it's medicinal, it's also confronting. It allows me to to dive into parts of of my inner world that I feel are necessary in order to organise myself. There's there's a lot of layers to it. But at this point, I I think it has more control over me than I have over it.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  I kind of just get out of its way. I let it come to me and it.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  It just flows that that deeply for you.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. I've been writing since I was eleven years old. Like, same time, like, seriously, since I was eleven years old, hours every day. So I'm I'm now at the point where, like, it's it's second nature, it is just part of me.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  I know it, I know it can be powerful. I was going out with someone and she was very much into poetry and she used to drag me along to recitals at hotels. And, you know, I I would, I was dragging, dragging, kicking and screaming the first time I went there. But I I found it quite interesting. There's, yeah, some some poems really, really touch you in an emotional way, others are funny or just, it's, yeah, it's raw.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I I agree. My my poetry is, uh.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  For me, it's an exploration of

• 5:31Speaker 01

  everything, life, myself, my emotions, critiques of society. But it is raw, it hurts, it costs something for me to write. It allows me to feel deeper than than I I've felt any doing anything else, really.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Well, what what I saw of it, and I'm by no means an expert, but you're exposed when you're you're reading out poetry or reciting poetry and you you can feel that, that there's a vulnerability to the person that's standing there reading out there or reciting their their poetry.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that poetry, um, there's my own bias, but I I think that poetry needs to be authentic. It's and authenticity is not pretty all the time. And it can be very ugly, it can be hateful, it can be disgusting, it can be so sad. But that's what gives it bite, that's what gives it life. Yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, le- leaves an impression.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  As uh sovereign citizens do. So.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Well.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Let's get uh, let's get back into it. Now, we left you in part one, life was going good, you're giving the cops hell, even when they pulled you over for.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Giving them hell, son.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Giving them hell and you come out on top and you've won again. But it got to the point and we, we touched on the compound and the dynamics in the compound and there's even in that um, yeah, where there's equity for everyone, there tends to be the, the dominant um, alpha male as you described. It got to the point that uh you felt that the, the very system that you were pushing against, you needed the system to help you.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  What, what happened there?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  So uh it got to mid October, I was now for a couple of months, I was at the sharp end of the abuse. I was, I was copping it quite a bit from not just the alpha male, but from a lot of other people as well. Like, cause it was very political for, for, for, for, for a movement that, you know, espouses, we're all free and, you know, loving and caring and I'm like, no.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Okay, this is where I, this is where I wanted to get you. You're starting to see the irony of some of the concepts.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. So I, I was at the blunt end of the hammer. I was the nail and I was really copping it and I uh, I got assaulted. Um, I was getting psycho, like the psychological abuse was relentless. So I fled in the middle of the night, packed a bag, called someone else who was up in the mo- in, in the movement. Um, cause I, I wasn't out of it, I was still in it, but just getting out of the compound, getting out of the, the danger zone. And I called a friend up and in the middle of the night, grabbed my cat, grabbed my bag. I had a little van that like was not roadworthy, it was full of rust and I was trying to put it together. And that was gonna be the escape plan, cause I knew for a while that like, I need to get out, this is starting to get worse and worse and worse. Um, and then.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Fled in the middle of the night, went to the next town over and I was um homeless.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  I was homeless and I was living in a tent with my cat and my van with leaks all through it and, you know, it was wonderful, uh quite, I'd still remember the sand and how it got and everything. Uh so, I was, uh but I was still doing seminars, I was still, uh I had my own little seminar running. I'd be offered to go to other neighbouring towns like Stal, Japarats. I even went to Melbourne, I even went up to Sydney and did uh different seminars. I did a, I did seminars everywhere from like places which looked like a hoarder was living there, to like multi-million dollar apartments overlooking Sydney Harbour. Like, people are involved in this movement, they're not like, they're not like all poor or all,

• 9:25Speaker 01

  you know, white or whatever, it's, it's all kinds of people, um all social classes, everything.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  So you're, you're doing these seminars, you're travelling and, and you're like-minded people coming in and you're, you're the man. You're, you're explaining uh what, what's going on and uh and people are buying into it.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yep, pretty much, um and uh yeah, so I, uh in exchange, I was, I was, you know, getting fed, getting put up. People were paying for things for me because I like, I didn't have a cent of ink, I was trying to make this happen. I was trying to get my hands on that birth certificate bank account. The beautiful birth certificate bank account that um, you know, is, is, is the allure of, of, of the puzzle of the movement.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Probably the gold at the end of the rainbow.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the gold at the end of the rainbow. Um so, yeah, I'd, I'd fled in the middle of the night. And then the guy who ran the compound started to come after me. Cause you know, I'd, I'd essentially taken a step back and fled, I was gone. Um so he'd come after me, tried to extort me and he said, oh, you owe me, it was in silver because uh like. Silver is the currency, the real currency apparently. Um, so silver and gold, he wanted me to pay him like something like three, four thousand dollars. Even though the whole time I was kind of working like a slave and uh doing all of the paperwork and a lot of other things.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  And I just wasn't having it. I was like, this guy's gonna come up, keep coming after me if I don't get help. Um, and there were also like. People who'd come to the barbecues and stuff, because we were having like monthly barbecues and. Lo- like hundreds of people were coming and um I was there talking in front of them, telling them my experiences and. They'd tell their stories and there are also people in that, those events who were really dangerous, like. They were making their own weapons. They were fantasizing about how they would kill cops. They were um. Like, th- there's all sorts of people. You've got a full spectrum of, I was, I was more leaning towards the side of.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Let's figure out this birth certificate bank account, baby. Let's, let's get our hands on that. But there's the other ones which are like, nah, it's a big club. Um, they're all out to get us. We've got a, it's, and you get the survivalist part of it as well comes in.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  That, that's where it gets scary, doesn't it?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, very dangerous. Um, so. I realized when I'd heard those speeches about, you know, like. Here's how you kill cops. You create a, a electromagnetic pulse weapon and two bullets to the back of the head, cut out their radio, like. They'd like, it was almost like a half-baked plan. And I, I remember thinking at the time, I'm like, that's, that's fucking insane, like. Uh, I, I'm just here for the bank account. I'm sorry. I'd, I'd fled and I was, I was terrified. Uh, genuine. I was homeless and I was terrified and the only people I could rely on were people who were connected in that movement. To other people in that movement who, you know, some of them were dangerous, some of them. More like me, but.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  I can see why you feel vulnerable.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so I, I went to the cops and that's like the worst thing you can do. Um, because you're siding with um the big evil empire.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  These were the same cops who uh like. In the months before were watching me in the cells, like making a fool of myself and being real arrogant and to them and and they had every reason to turn me away, but they didn't. They helped me, um, which I'm forever grateful for because they did their duty, which is so important uh for people to just like, yeah, like at a point, at a point, and I've I've realised this in hindsight, but at a point where I was desperate and and I think when I was an addict as as a as a teenager, it was the same thing. I was, I got to a point where I needed help. I needed to reach out and I knew I needed help. And if I was met

• 13:25Speaker 01

  with them just going, no, go away. You're a sovereign citizen. We don't have to deal with you. Would have made me feel more isolated. But I they met me with kindness. They met me as a human being and they were like, we're gonna deal with who you are now, not with who you have been. And that was a real like, holy, holy crap. These people are people. They're not part of the evil empire. You know, they're just doing their job. They're just like, they're treating me like someone who uh is just a human being. And I was like, I was shocked. And it it made me go, oh, uh, this is okay.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Was that a like a watershed moment? Like, that's pretty telling. Did that that start to make you question everything that you've been uh the direction you've been heading in?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  That's why I call it the decentralised cult because you there there's like there like we had the alpha male and all that, but there's no like big leaders. It's just big egos. What's central is the ideology and there's lots of different avenues which that takes. And wherever your predisposition towards, you're gonna kind of lean into it and it's gonna drag you further in and and that. Um, so. With me, me coming out and going to the police, it was, it was the biggest betrayal.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  They'd be hurt.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they did. Um, immediately I was the enemy. I was getting, I started getting threats. I started getting immediately, uh, like just looked at different by a lot of people in the movement. Um, and that scared me. Yeah. So the police actually, the police actually, uh, when I came to them, I, I, I got a call from them later on. And, and this was another officer who like, I, I knew who knew me and we'd gone into this argument. He, this was, I went into Horsham and I apologized to the bloke. I went into Dimbula and I apologized to some other officers at the stations there.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  For your apologies for when you've been a dickhead.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just like, I need to rebuild a bridge here, man. Like, I know you guys, you wanna help me, but I need to, I need accountability. Accountability right now for me is important and I think accountability at all times is important. But at this moment, it really shone a light on, if I don't do this, I've, what am I, what have I learnt? I'm sorry. Anyway, I got a call from one of the, one of the police who at one point in time, I'd tried to get him to pay me ten thousand dollars for not accepting my paperwork. Like I'd, I'd have this little notebook and I'd write out a little constructive contract and I'd hand it to him. And if he accepted it, that means he accepted the contract.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  And what, he didn't pay you the money?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  He didn't pay me the money, can you believe it? I'm still, still wondering where it is. I keep checking my bank account. No. Um, yeah, it was, it, it just at the time, it was just like, this is ridiculous, mate. And threw it out right in front of me and fair enough, like it was, I, I get it. But yeah, so I, I, he actually called me up after I'd kind of come and apologized and all this sort of thing. And he said, look, mate, can I come and, can we, can a few of us come and have a talk to you? And they did. They, they called me up. I met him in Dimbula and they, um, they just kind of said to me, they actually said to me, this is one of the funniest things of the whole thing. I, we were wondering at the station, we were wondering, we had a bet going. We were wondering when you were gonna figure this out.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Because they they knew that I was the man behind the paperwork. And they knew that like, that I was able to at least kind of discern a few things. So I'd come in and I'd apologize and I'd do a bit of showing a bit of, I guess, redemption. So, yeah, that made me laugh. And then, you know, they connected me to like domestic violence services. And um, eventually I I'm I made my way down to Melbourne and I lived in the yoga studio on the floor. And I was still in the movement, don't get me wrong.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  You're still, okay.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Um, but I wasn't, I was more running the idea of we've got to work with the government. We got to, we got to figure out the, it was still after that secret bank account, because that was still there in my head. Um, I was running these seminars of, okay, why don't we just figure out the right paperwork and be real friendly with the government? Still paper manipulation, it's still, uh, yeah, inherently kind of trickery. Um, but, yeah, I was running these seminars when I was helping people kind of figure out. We were all in it together, trying to figure out this puzzle. And then at the same time, I said to, and people in the, in the, my sort of groups did the same as me. I said to them, we're studying this stuff anyway. We're, we're studying the legal sides of things.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Why don't we take advantage of some of these free TAFE courses? Like accounting and uh, finance and all this stuff.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Now you're thinking.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  So I went and did a diploma of finance and mortgage broking management. I did a certificate for in accounting and bookkeeping. I did a cert for in credit management. Um, and I did a bunch of security courses and quite a few different things just to take. Uh, the, the original reason was because I was going to teach myself more about the system. So I could get my hands on that birth certificate.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Knowledge is power.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then as I learnt more and more about these actual roles within the system. I realized that this is complex. The, the way that we interpret mortgage bonds and um, how, you know, money gets created out of thin hair and all that sort of stuff. I started to realize that our theories were not sound. They were, were based on.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Kind of just people's opinions. And then that that opinion would get like so so commonly said in that that it just becomes second nature. It's just repeated so much that you you believe that our money's, you know, out of thin air and and um you know, your signature, you sign that and then they go double dip at the treasury and get money from your birth certificate, bank account, and all this sort of stuff. Like, oh, the idea that your money does, like, your signature does create value is true in terms of mortgage bonds, but it's not, it's not that it created out of thin air. It's because you've signed saying, I will pay X amount, uh, because my s- my like sweat and blood and hard work and labour can guarantee that. And and the more that I learnt through these studies, like formal studies, the more that I started

• 19:49Speaker 01

  to realise that our opinions about all of this are are founded on a very shaky foundation. They're not, they're, it's not real. It's wrong. And then the other people who were studying as well started to come to the same conclusion, which was good. So we, yeah, it just started to pull away more and more and more. It's just, it was kind of like a slow un-brainwashing. Funny, like, in the movement, you think everyone else is brainwashed, but I was. I was brainwashed by the, by the echo chamber.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  A couple of, a couple of things from your book that I'd like to discuss. Uh, ju- just a quote from your book. It's a common thread among many sovereign citizens. They champion freedom from the government, control, and refuse to acknowledge its authority, yet selectively tap into the very benefits and protections the system offers when it aligns with their interests. So, yeah, and the hypocrisy there, isn't there? Like, we're not-

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's, it's the, the one I said in the book, it is the mortgage. They espouse that the mortgage is a, a fraudulent contract, because, you know, they've double dipped at the treasury and um they've already been paid when you've signed it. Well, if it is a fraudulent contract, wouldn't that make you benefiting from the proceeds of crime by living in the house?

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, so that, I see the, the logic there, taking it further there.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  And, yeah, it's like, often when you put a lot of these theories just up against kind of calm skepticism, not frantic, calm skepticism with a bit of, you know, knowledge around, okay, how do bonds work and how do these things sort of work? You come to a conclusion of this-

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Theory is, like a lot of theories in the uh sovereign citizen movement, inherently narcissistic. It's, I am above the laws of society and therefore not bound to them. Because I know more, because I know the secret, because I'm chosen to know the secret.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  Well, you you say narcissistic and we we see it when they pop up on the social media or yeah, where it's it's more extreme on on the news. And there there is this arrogance about them, the way that they're uh yeah, claiming rights and and different things. Uh another quote from the book again, just to let let's have a have a chat about it. Another idea of being a sovereign citizen, I'm a living being, I'm not the name, theory might be the most absurd of all. Sovereign citizens cling to this notion as if it's a golden ticket to immunity from the law or obligation. The idea is that your legal rep- your legal name represents a corporate identity, separate from your flesh and blood and self. And that by refusing to identify with it, you somehow become untouchable by the law.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  It's a bizarre fantasy that the game crumbles under the slightest scrutiny. I read that out because in the part one, you were uh when you were talking about what was buying into it, what got you into it. That's what you're going, yeah, man, that's right. Now you look at it and when it's it's read out like that and with the the distance and looking back, you realise how how stupid it sounds.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's um, it's a dodge of accountability. Our names exist because we live in a society based on trust. There's no hidden advantage or disadvantage to to having a name or or whatever. We live in a, we live in a society based on trust and if something goes wrong, I need to be able to bring accountability to you and vice versa. And without some sort of identifier, that becomes.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Pretty much impossible, which is where you see uh like the, the, a lot of the times in, in the courts, it's like paper terrorism. There's so much, they flood the courts with so much paperwork of I'm not the name, I'm not this. That the court just goes, this is too hard to deal with. It's not right. Like logically, it's not correct. But it's not worth our manpower to be able to prosecute this person for a simple mask fine. When they're gonna, they're not making really much money off of it, because they're hoping it's, you know, um, that, yeah, like, that this person becomes so difficult to deal with, that it, they become unprofitable.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Like, it's, it's not sustainable to, to prosecute this person for this little thing. And but then they get like, they, they, you then label them as a vexatious litigant, makes perfect sense. And it doesn't, the, the, the name theory, like, you can't go and, like, stab someone or do something violent or steal or, you know, and that being not the name is.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Not accepting accountability for it.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, when it, when it comes to real harm and, and, and damage, you're gonna pay the price, whether you like it or not. And, and having the name there makes it easier for everyone, including you, as, as the person who might have done the damage. It allows you a path back to well equity.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  The touching on that, the last quote from your book, and we'll, we'll talk about that. Society relies on legal names for identification, ensuring the responsibilities are clear and justice can be served. Without that shared understanding, it becomes almost impossible to gauge as a full function member of society. The system depends on these conventions and denying them doesn't grant freedom, it creates chaos and isolation. That's exactly what you were talking about, wasn't it?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely. Yeah, the, um, by not being the name, you isolate yourself away from a system that's actually there to support you. It's there to give you options. You can be whoever you want to be. I believe that true freedom lies in authenticity. True freedom.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Is is accountability and honesty and and living true to you. And and the system is actually set up, we're we're in such a, we are in the lucky country because we have a system which is set up to support us as so long as we make, you know, good decisions. And but you're entitled to make whatever decisions you want. But you know, if you do make good decisions, if you if you do try to work with other people, you can improve your life and you will if you just keep showing up, you just keep doing the work. You just sometimes have to eat a humble pie.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Hey, you you've convinced me, but I wasn't a sovereign citizen, you were a sovereign citizen. Have you ever thought that like the the Zoom meetings, have you thought about flipping it? Zoom meetings, why you shouldn't be a sovereign citizen?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, but there's not really any uh

• 26:25Speaker 00

  No one.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Support groups that I'm aware of for people who are coming out of the ideology. I I think the main thing I could tell people is like like dealing with someone who's a drug addict. They have to be ready to step out of it. Like when I was an addict, being sober could have been in the next room. It was too far because I was, I wanted, I wanted the life of being an addict more than I wanted. Healing, real healing. But when I decided within myself, I came to the conclusion through my own power that I was done, that I wanted to get sober, it being sober could have been on the other side of the planet. I would have made it happen. And and what I think it takes as a community is when we see these people coming out of these extremist ideologies,

• 27:10Speaker 01

  when we see, when we deal with uh people who are vulnerable in any any capacity, you meet them as a human being where they are now, you don't, you don't meet them for who they were, what they did. You're aware of those things, of course, it'd be naive not to be, but forgiveness is our evolution. I wrote about this in my in my book on philosophy, which I wrote, The Art of Evolution. One of the points in there was forgiveness is our evolution as a society, individually, collectively. It's it is the path forward to a uh a higher consciousness.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it it makes sense what you're what you're saying. And also, you've got to want to, uh, want to leave it when you, you're caught, caught up in it. Once you stepped away from it and clearly like talking now, and we're, we're making light of it, but it's, it's in a, well, I don't know if you define it as an addiction, but it has the same sort of ramifications where a life's destroyed because of your compulsion for something.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  You can be addicted to chaos, absolutely.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, well, uh, uh, and an ide- ideology can be concerning and the world's a pretty, uh, you know, wild place at the moment and everyone's got strong views. With a, a sovereign citizen, if, when you were right in it, because we've got some, uh, we've got some listener questions because people that we put out on social media and people so interested in the sovereign citizen movement. And the only sort of snapshot we get is, uh, Desi Freeman, which is at the extreme.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's become a bit of a martyr.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that, you, you, you don't want that and we want people to understand what, what it's all about. But if we confronted you, uh, I, I suppose when you were in the thick of it, when you believed it and you truly believed it and you were promoting it and carrying on about it, if someone confronted you and tried to argue down with logic, what would be your reaction?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Uh, uh, it'd be, uh, deny, twist and manipulate it back into my advantage. That's the way that it, it works in the ideology, uh, everything that gets thrown into it, uh, twisted and used. A, a perfect example is you're in the courts, you're arguing with the police, you're ultimately unsuccessful, uh, in the system's eyes. But you come back and you tell your story and it gets twisted and now you're a pioneer and a victor of, of what you've done. And it's the, the echo chamber reinforces that, makes it stronger and stronger and stronger.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  It, it sounds like those police that were, you know, betting when you'd wake up to yourself, seemed to have a good way of handling it.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  They did.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  You, it's got to take its natural course. And when you came to them, they, they showed you, um, some kindness and consideration and, and I'm sure that, uh, would have gone in part to changing your way that you looked at, uh, the authority figures.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  It became part of the reason I wanted to, uh, I went into security as well. Obviously like being this heavily tattooed, the police, like you can't go into police because of tattoos, which, you know, I, I kind of understand, you know? Some people are very terrified by looking at me, um, and I get it, but, uh. I went into security because I was like, ah, I, I, I want to, to understand what it's like to actually deal with people in some of their most vulnerable moments. It's part of the reason I do the crisis support work because people, when they are in those situations, they don't need your solutions. They need your presence. They need you to be there to be kind of a container for their chaotic

• 30:38Speaker 01

  world. And then when they're ready, they can step out of it.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Security plus you're doing your, uh, your charity work. Talk us through that because they're, they're two, two extremes. Still very much you're dealing with, with people, security, yeah, learning how to manage a conversation, talking someone down. That's a big part of, uh, you know, policing and, and also the security industry. But is it, uh, Lifeline you're, you're working for?

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. I'm, I'm one of the crisis support workers.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  What drove you to, uh, work in that, uh, that, or not work, you volunteer, what, uh, drove you towards that?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Uh, well, a few things. I've had, uh, friends and family who have suicided. I have a, a tattoo on my face just here, which represents suicide. Um, I myself attempted, tried to suicide when I was young. It, it was also as well, so I could build my social skills. I, I, I sometimes wonder if I'm a bit autistic. I don't know, but like.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna make, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna make a diagnosis here. Yeah.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Thank you. So I, I, I wanna learn how to connect with people. And I felt like the one thing that, uh, Lifeline teaches is connection, more than solutions. You don't, I don't, I'd know from doing the training that we don't have the solution. No matter what I might think would be your way out, I don't know. Cause the reality is you, I don't know your full story from a 15 minute phone call. You do. And I just need to be there and to guide you through.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  A way for you to reach your own conclusion, for you to get yourself to where you want to be. And people know, they know what they need to do. It's just sometimes it's hard and like, I get that. This journey of accountability that I've been on has probably been one of the hardest things I've done, just because of the vulnerability of it. Like, I, I am now in a position where I, I, it's scrutinized, it's, it's, there's a lot of things. Um, but it's, I think it's important to, to allow accountability to become a, a real mainstream topic. In all aspects, because you can apply accountability to, to relationships, to your job, to anything. The, the energy that you put out is what you're gonna get back.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  You, you reap what you sow kind of thing. So dealing with people who are on the edge has, has taught me that it's not about punishment. It's not about judging them. It's about being there and allowing them to be who they are and then welcoming them when they're ready.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  And if you're tying that to accountability, letting them work through it to the point where they understand, well, there's one person that can fix it, that's.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. It comes in many forms. Sometimes, like, sometimes it's, they need practical help and then you can give them like references and stuff like that. But, but ultimately they decide what the solution is for them. And that's important. I've seen it in, uh, uh, security work as well. Like, I, I worked as a covert loss prevention officer. Uh, this was after I got out. It's a friend's incident, remember? I went from, uh, working against the man to being the man.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  You, you wouldn't, you wouldn't be popular in your old circles.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Um.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Okay, so, I'm sorry, I'm just having, having a look with a covert security dress, uh, with your, uh, with your tattoos.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, plain, plainclothes undercover officers, uh, in like retail settings catching people who are stealing.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Can I just make a point on that? And I, I didn't realise, I, I did a talk, uh, about retail theft, how big it is.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  It's huge. Down, down in Victoria.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the statistics are something like one in eight or one in 10 people when they walk into a retail, retail shop will steal something. It's huge and it's looked at as like, oh, it's a victimless crime, but it's not because the the cost of those items is gonna get passed on to the paying customer. So when you go into like a shop and you steal something, the single mother of of three who's paying, trying her best to pay for her things, she's gonna have to pay that cost of of your theft. But, you know, you you come across all types of people in that work. Um. But ultimately, it's the it's it's the same every time. You you meet them where they are and you do your best to connect with them.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And ultimately, often that will result in a a like they'll give you the stuff back and apologize. And it is what it is.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Well, I I think probably the best skill you you can have as a police officer. And I I I saw some people in in my early days and tried to learn from them, how they could communicate with people and not challenge them. You you'd have you have one particular police officer who would be in all these uh fights and get assaulted all the time. And you'd have another person that could just talk, talk their way around the situation by showing empathy, care, consideration, understanding, just communicating and and the difference that that can make. Let's talk on the serious side about the dangers of uh sovereign citizenship. And you you talked about the group of people, like minded people that would come. And then you've got the survivalists, the preppers type, well, we can make, we can make our own weapons. This is how we do this.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  And and I think we have become more aware of it. And Desi Freeman was one example. There's there's been others where there there's.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Wehambilla massacre is another one.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Is this something that we should be wary of?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I don't know enough to make this judgment, but I think.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Just from your experience?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Well, from what I'm seeing is it's kind of the first decentralized cult that kind of exists. There's no one figurehead. It's difficult to escape because it's an echo chamber. And um there there is a full spectrum of people. But ultimately, the entire movement itself is based in fear and disconnection.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Fear, isolation and disconnection.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Which is a, is a concern.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if you're already feeling like that in your own personal life, often that ideology will appeal to you and then once you get beyond a certain point, you're deep into it and you're not listening to anything else. And um, that can manifest in things like Desi Freeman. Cause he, from what I gather, he is, he's a predator and a victim at the same time. There's a lot of that in the movement, there's people who are woe is me kind of attitude, but at the same time,

• 37:20Speaker 01

  because they feel cornered, because they feel like they've got to, you know, put up a fight, they can be very reactive and whether it comes to violence through shooting police or other people, to paper violence, to suing people uh, with documents that like are just out there, but if you don't know what you're looking at, it's scary. You're being dragged into court by this, this guy who, or girl that you sense is radical and is, that's terrifying.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  We, we had uh, someone on the podcast that his ex-partner was in the sovereign citizen movement and uh, started to make his life, uh, life hell. We had him on and on the back of that, we got fined, I got fined by the sovereign citizens with the legal document.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  How much, how much silver did they want?

• 38:12Speaker 00

  I, I think it was, we were up to a million dollars.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  A million dollars, okay, sometimes that's, yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Well, going after a big, big corporation. But the thing was, looking at the legal documents and it got sent to us and, and having, call them legal documents. I'll stop. Buzz that out, looking at the documents. As someone that's naive to that world, that's never been in the legal system, uh, cause they use the big words and that's like the lawyers and the solicitors uh, use and you're thinking, what's all that mean? And it seems to, seems to make sense. I could see a person that hasn't got the experience that, you know, I might have or people that work in uh, work here.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  It would be confronting, it would be worrying if, if, you know, uh, uh, an elderly lady got a, a notice served on, on her or an elderly, elderly gentleman and looking like a legal document with a stamp and, and all that, that could cause them a lot of fear, couldn't it?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I see, like, the, the documents that are on that news.com article with my purple footprints and, and me declaring myself a pharaoh, that's, that's one side of it. That's me trying to figure out the puzzle to get this secret bank account. Um, there is like some sort of convoluted logic behind it at the time, but there is the other side of it where paperwork gets used to bully, um, and to kind of manipulate your way out of situations.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that where you just give up or decease from, uh, what they're trying to stop you, uh, saying or doing.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  They're so, it's so confronting that you just don't know what to do with it. You know, what, what is this? Like, I need help.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. You've been in, in the movement, mixing with the like-minded people when you're in there. What's happened with Desi Freeman? Would he be looked at a martyr in, in some people within that?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely. You can see in the comment sections of the, well, that news.com article, a lot of, he is talked about as a, as a martyr. He's talked about as this person, he stood up, he did the right thing or whatever. And, and they have these convoluted ways of like twisting it like, oh no, the police were lying and no one has any evidence of anything really, you know, they've, they've got their theories and, you know, maybe they've got footage of him or whatever. And it's the same thing on, on the crisis lines. It's like, I don't know the story. I don't know what really happened. The best I'm going to be able to do is project what I think should happen with it, which is what you see happening. So really all you can do is meet people with connection where they are and, and, um.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I look, I fundamentally agree with, I think it's, I think it was Azio that, that described the sovereign citizen or designated the sovereign citizen movement as a domestic terror organisation. I agree with that because it's politically motivated and um it's dangerous. And they are willing to resort to violence to get their way. But there's also the other side of it, which is the paper terrorism, which, which I was a part of. It's so, it can be so terrifying from the outset, from, from outside, but in it, you feel justified. That's what makes it dangerous as well because you believe radically in what you are doing.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  I'll go to the questions from our listeners. What advice would you give to family of friends on how to speak to someone lost in the movement? So your family, someone in a situation like you were in.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Meeting people when they're on the edge of something or trying to grab them and, and shake them awake is not actually going to help. It's going to make it worse. They're going to feel more connected to the movement and they're going to feel less connected to you. What you kind of really need to do, because this person's their own person. I think as a society in general, we, we need to recognise that, that, that everyone is an individual and they live an individual life and they, and they have the autonomy and the freedom to be able to, to choose what they want to do with their life. So when you come in and you try to tell someone, hey, you're doing the wrong thing. This is crazy. You're part of a cult, all this sort of stuff. They're hearing you, but they don't understand you. They don't really care to listen.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  They're in the ideology. They're in the echo chamber. They're listening to that right now. But often there will come a point, and I think everyone gets to a point where they reach out and they go, aye, I feel like I'm a bit deep in this. I feel like I need help. And, and I think it's up to you to recognise when they're coming to you going. You know, can you help me? And not, not give me your advice, because your advice, they don't know, you don't know. You don't know what advice to give them. That's incorrect. Anything that you think might work? Nah, probably not. So, you, you meet them with the solutions that they come up with themselves and you meet them with connection.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  When they're ready to come to you, because anything else that you do is gonna just push them further into it sadly. And that's, it's a game of patience. It's a game of maintaining your connection with this person. That's the, the big one. Don't, don't be critical about, you know, the, like, you can, you can question it and stuff like that, but they don't wanna hear it. They don't wanna hear you shitting on their belief system. What people in general, in all aspects of life, I think are looking for is connection. They want to feel like they're understood. They wanna feel like, um, that i- if they are in a, a situation where they're feeling desperate,

• 43:37Speaker 01

  that they can come to you and that you're gonna meet them with compassion and forgiveness and you're gonna be a light in their darkness.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  What you said there is very similar. We had a, a forensic psychologist on talking about lone actors, which based on extreme ideologies and, and all that. And, uh, his view was very aligned to what you just said. You can't challenge them because that will potentially push them further there, but be there and support when, uh, when they need it. Old friends in the movement, what do they think of you now?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  I've had people accuse me of, of being an undercover agent who was sent in to disrupt the movement.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  I've, I've been called a sellout, like, oh, the media must be paying me. Well, that'd be great, but nah.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  You know, like, there's, there's so many, uh, I've become a bit of a, a, a, I guess, a, a projection of, of people's fears within the move. And like, I understand it, I would have done the same, yeah. When you're, when you're in that world, you think that if they're not like you, they're part of the, they're either a sheep or they're part of the big evil empire or the big club that you're not a part of. Um, and ultimately, the idea that there is a, a big club that everyone's a part of, like, eh eh eh, I think what people are doing and they're, they're attributing to malice, what can easily be explained by people making simple mistakes, because life, the system, the legal system, majority of industries,

• 45:10Speaker 01

  every industry, basically, is complex, it's difficult to understand, and that's why people can spend forty years in a career and still only feel like they maybe get a little, get it a little bit of how it works. So, the idea that there's one big club is, is, is not real.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  The people that you knew and, or, or just people that identify with it, I, I'm sure there is resentment for what you've done. Do you have, uh, uh, this is not from the listener, it's from me, a genuine question, do you have concerns for, for your, yourself speaking out on a forum like this, or any other forum that you speak out about?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Um, absolutely, I've been told I'm a whistleblower, so, yeah, I do, I've received death threats when I released, uh, Chasing Shadows. I also had an attempted home invasion on my property, th- this is all the same week. You know, they warned me on the phone, they were coming for me, so, yeah, there's definitely, like, there's a bit of resentment there, I think. But, you know, it is what it is, man, like, I, I wish them kindness, I wish them healing, I wish them love, and I, I, I hope that they can recognise me as a human being, it's just trying my best. That's, that's the reality of it, and that's all I can do, you know?

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I, I think the fact that you are speaking up is, there, there's benefits for every, everyone to understand it, because there, there's concerns when, uh, there's an ideology that people don't fully understand and, yeah. By you coming out and, and speaking, uh, speaking out. You've given me a big, better understanding about it. No, well, I've looked at sovereign citizens and I, I saw them when I was in the police, people that identified that way and I've had people say, you know, I haven't got a name, I'm an entity and, and that type of, type of narrative. But you've given a real insight into the how, how you can slip into, into it. Another question, future of sovereign citizen movement in Australia. Do you see a future for it? Do you think it'll grow?

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Like, I think my take on it is it certainly expanded on the back of Covid, as was discussed.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Like gasoline on a, on an ember.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay, that's, that's a good way of describing it. Do you, do you think it will continue on?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  I think until, until people start to connect, and by this I mean, regular, everyday people, sovereign citizens, and also the government and police and, um, the health industry, like, a lot of, and, until accountability in all aspects of life gets to the forefront of people's way of being in a position of power. If we can hold people who are in positions of power, whether it's within the movement, whether it's, um, as a police officer or whatever, if, if accountability can be at the forefront of everyone's agenda, because power corrupts.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Until everyday people start to see that, no, we, we, we are honest. You know, we're not trying to hide anything and we are human. We make mistakes, it's normal to make mistakes. We're not perfect, the government's not perfect, police aren't perfect, no one is. Are you? I'm not. Like, so then, then we can move to forgiveness. So I think it's, it's accountability, then forgiveness, then growth, together as, as a society and a community. And, um, it's, it's at all levels. I, I wanna see, I wanna see politicians, when they make a mistake, don't try to hide it. Come out, tell me what happened. You know?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Same with anything, same with people in the movement. I wanna see people in the movement who like, yeah, I did, I did take this, you know, person accord over a fence or whatever it might be. But, you know, looking back, I'm sorry about that. I was, I was radicalised. I was, I wanna see, I wanna see accountability and then forgiveness and then growth. And I think that's the way forward. So I, I think the movement will continue to grow because what feeds it is the lack of transparency. The, the fact that people have questions and they're not being answered. That's what, that's what fuels it. Then the conspiracy theories begin.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  There will always be the conspiracy theorists and the outliers and, and, and that. But I, I think you're right and, you know, politicians, they're our, our leaders. I find it disappointing with politics when it seems to be if you, you watch the news, you've got the, the government saying one thing and then the opposition have got to come in virtually as a reflex action to counter what the government said. And it's very rare that you see a bipartisan approach where they, they come together.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  I think one way I've learned to conceptualise a politician within myself is, I feel like a lot of politicians, they get into it because they wanna make a change in the world. And they have ideas about policies and they're gonna promise things and, and this and that. And, and as part of campaigning and, and, and getting in, I do believe they have every intention to fulfil those promises a lot of the time. However, I think because of the nature of society being complex, being way deeper than we think it is, they get into these positions of power and they realise, hold on a moment, I can't do anything that I promised because it's just like unintelligible.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Like there's so much, so many variables, so much complexity. Like if I was running for office, the only thing I would say is, look, I'll try my best. That's all I can promise is I will be honest with you and I will try my best. And that's, and that's what I think really, really should be the, with any, any position of power. Because it's complex. You get in, you get into these positions. And there are things that you didn't consider would happen, they happen. And you don't know what to do. And it doesn't seem like there's a clear path because you're gonna do one thing, it's gonna piss off someone over there and, you know, and then it's just back and forth.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Gets complicated. But if we bring it back to accountability and power corrupts. I've seen it all the time. I've I've seen it all the time, at a small scale, a big scale. Even you're going back to your compound situation, the alpha male there. I'm sure he started out with the right intentions and then all of a sudden his ego got fed because people are listening to him. And he's the man. And all of a sudden, in that little microcosm of a community in a compound. That goes skew if because he starts to enjoy the power. What are you doing for yourself now? Like, you've had some turmoil in your life, you've had some experiences in your life. Love your poetry. You are, I'm gonna say this, you're the best poet we've ever had on I Catch Killers.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  The only poet you've ever had.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Well, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to start somewhere.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  True, there we go.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  You, you train or anything else that you do to, you know, keep you in a good headspace?

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I, like I said, I write relentlessly. I, I

• 52:24Speaker 01

  bring myself to authenticity, back to authenticity constantly. And it is, it is work. I speaking of accountability, in my security work, I, power corrupts me. Like, I'm, I'm talking about, you know, our power corrupts and all this. I'm a victim of it too. Not a victim, but like, I do that as well. Like, sometimes when I'm kicking someone out of a bar, they might say something to me and I'm gonna be like, nah, you're gone, mate. Like, you know, and I'll use the power that I have to get them out, even if maybe I pushed it a little too far. Like, I'm, I still, I'm still like imperfect in the, in these ways. And, and so I'm constantly trying to bring myself back to authenticity in anything that I do.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Whether it's writing, it doesn't need to be, it just needs to be true for me to, to pursue it. And, and, you know, I, I Obviously, the ri- the writing is what I'm doing. To simplify the answers, that's all I do. It's, it is an exploration of myself, my life, my, how I'm inter- creating the world, interpreting the world. Um, yeah, and I, I think that that's, that's what I'm here to do. So I'm just gonna keep doing that and try and be as authentic as I possibly can in my, in my daily life and also in my work.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Well, uh, in terms of authenticity, the fact that you own all your little quirks, all your mistakes and all that. Uh, uh, there's such an important way of approaching life and it's interesting you say in your security, yeah, power corrupts. I see it in police and I think all police, but uh, good people learn to check it. But from a police point of view, and I didn't realise until you sort of step away, or, uh, no, even when I was in there. You're so used to telling people what to do as a police officer. When store security says, can I check your bag or whatever? And you think, who the hell, I, I'm a policeman, what are you doing asking to check, check my bag? That's the type of thing that can creep up on you, even if you, you've got good intents, intent.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  But you've got a lot going on in that head, no wonder you've got to put, uh, put the words down in, uh, down in writing.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Um, thank you, that's kind.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Do you, do you, do you sleep?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Um, no, well, you know, I try my best to. Often I'm still, you know, still a bit haunted by home invasion and stuff like that. So I, I'm a very light sleeper, I, I wake up at the slightest noise and, and will do a little patrol of the windows.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  You know, but, uh, yeah, look, I, I, I do sleep, but I'm always, I'm always doing something towards my, my work. I, I, it's just the way I wanna live my life. I'm, I'm very kind of orientated in that direction.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Well, uh, good on you for, but you've certainly living a full life and I, I really appreciate, appreciate you coming on, uh, on the podcast and being so open and honest about your experience.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's, that's why I think, well, what I want for myself and also what I want for everyone else in terms of their own lives is live a full life. Live a life that you're happy to live, you get to be the one to create that.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  There's a lot to be said for it, isn't it?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  All right, well, Brody, I've enjoyed the chat.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Thank you, Gary. I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  And you almost had me in part one signing up for the Sovereign Citizenship. But, yeah, you've given a good insight and we balanced it out in part two. So if you've listened to part one, I hope you'll listen to part two as well, otherwise we might give off the wrong idea and the membership for Sovereign Citizenship will skyrocket.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  You take care. All the best for the future.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.