From cop to defence lawyer: Patrick Schmidt Pt. 1

Former police prosecutor turned defence solicitor Patrick Schmidt sits down with Gary to reveal what really happens when police face a good defence lawyer in court and why so many officers struggle in the witness box. With 8 years as a police prosecutor and now defending clients full-time, Patrick has seen both sides. He breaks down how defence lawyers pick apart police evidence, why arrogance and emotion get officers into trouble, and why preparation is everything when you take the stand. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  What happens when a police officer swaps a badge for the bar table? Well, today we find out. Patrick Smith was a uniform officer, worked in plain clothes as a cop, and then became a police prosecutor. And now he works as a criminal defence lawyer. We talk about what it's like to go from locking up the bad guys to actually defending them. Take a listen.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Patrick Smith, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Oh, fantastic. Thanks for having me, Gary.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Well, I always like talking to ex-cops. It's always good to have an ex-cop on the podcast. But, and I say that even on the basis that you have now gone to the dark side.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Gone to the dark side?

• 1:27Speaker 00

  A defence solicitor. So I'll put you on the spot straight up before I ask you the hard questions. Do you take an oath or affirmation?

• 1:36Speaker 01

  I'll be taking the oath today, or I'll be taking the fifth.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Even though it's not an assory, I'll take it.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  You've brought new legislation in, I like the way you think. With the oath and affirmation, what do people tend to? And for people who don't understand what we're talking about, when you give evidence in a court of law, you have to swear an oath. Now, you can take an oath or an affirmation. What's the basic trend these days?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Well, it's moved away from God, strangely enough. And you find the ones that do prefer to swear to God are generally the non-Christian background.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  So I find that quite interesting because it's whether or not you swear to whichever God. It's not putting your hand on a Bible anymore. It's do you believe in God? And they never ask you which God. But I find there's more of a trend to just a promise to the court, a promise to tell the truth as opposed to the actual promise to God, which is a little bit different.

• 2:33Speaker 00

  Because it used to be that real formality, didn't it? You put your hand on the Bible and so help me God and...

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Oh, they still do it.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's the weight that they place on the Bible. And I saw when it sort of switched away from swearing the oath on the Bible, more of a, yeah, I'm here to tell the truth.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm here to tell the truth. And I think a lot of people, it's an out clause. I can lie to you, but I won't get in trouble with God.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Perhaps, perhaps. You're not suggesting people lie in the witness box, are you?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Oh, never. But we did have an actual case where someone actually blamed God for actually doing their offence because God told them to do it.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can see why they make a lot of TV dramas about courtroom because you see some classic things there. And even on the oath and affirmation, I remember, I think it was at a coronial inquest where some witness was being sworn in. And there was a 10-minute debate on, well, I'm not an actual human being, I'm an entity.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yes, a sovereign citizen.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, he pulled out a piece of paper and handed it to the coroner, the magistrate, and said, this is my entity, but I can't swear because I'm not a person.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  No, we've had a few of those. I actually had one with magistrate O'Brien. And it was a similar situation. And then for us to actually preside over him as a prosecutor and as the magistrate to prove we were human, we had to have a photocopy of our feet. We had to breathe onto a mirror.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Okay, this is a sovereign citizen, yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Request. And I actually said to the magistrate, well, look, I've got my phone here. We can breathe onto that, that's fine. We can also take a... And he just looked at me and said, mate, I'm not even... I'm not succumbing to this.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  How do you, like, some of those things, how do you move forward with it? Because you've got people that, whether it's mental health or a strong ideology, that just will not conform no matter what happens. So how do you manage your way around that?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Well, you can't. And that's where the magistrates are really good. And I know Judge Beatty used to rip apart, they'd hand up their written submissions. And they'd have some legislation victorious, some Commonwealth, anything that sort of suited their purpose. And I think there was another one that had, he said that the only legitimate currency is the $2 coin. And his fine was $61. So the judge said, well, I'll reduce the fine down to $60 and you can pay it with $32 coins.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  You do need a sense of humour, don't you, in courts? Because it's, yeah, it can be a very heavy, tense situation, that courtroom drama. But you do need to alleviate the tension sometimes with a bit of humour in the courts.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it happens all the time. And it's not to make the situation trivial, but if you don't, you know, you just, you start going a little bit mental.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. I'll get another hard question now that we've sorted that out. Is it more satisfying? Because you're looking at the justice system from two different sides now that you've gone across and defended. Did you get more satisfaction from prosecuting someone, putting a guilty person away? Or do you get more satisfaction of getting an innocent person off?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yes, okay. That's about a three-prong question as opposed to a two-prong question. Because there's prosecuting someone that's absolutely abhorrent and guilty. And to put them away, you know you've done something really good.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Sometimes, though, the law acts in a way that's unfair, that somebody has to be blamed. Some things are just accidents.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  And, but there has to be repercussions in relation to general deterrence and under the other sentencing principles. And if they're young, dumb, and have done something really stupid, that's never pleasurable.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  But if they are someone that, you know, you sit there and go, we need to get you off the streets, and there's been a lot of work to it, then it's so much better. But on defence, it's whether or not you've had a good win because the evidence was there and you're innocent, or you've won loophole.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Loophole is obviously, they've done it, but you found a legal manoeuvre to get them out of it.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Not as satisfying, but it's also a good bit. The way I like to tell it to people, and especially to my clients in defence, it's perspective. So if you look at a documentary and you're watching a lion, or it starts off with a lion, and you're watching the lion give birth to its cubs, and you're watching the lion going out and hunting, and comes up to a gazelle.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Your mind is predispositioned to that lion.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Leaning towards it.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're sitting there saying to that lion, oh, you get that gazelle, take it home to your little cubs, and that would be wonderful.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  On the flip side, if you're watching that same documentary, but you start off with the gazelle and watch the gazelle growing up.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  You're hoping...

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so you see the lion coming towards it, you go, oh, you rung gazelle.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  There's no difference in circumstance, no difference in situations, but why do you have that different perspective?

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  And it's probably when you've got the prosecution brain on or if you've got the defence brain on, then that's how your perspective is somewhat skewed.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  I didn't expect that answer, but it's an interesting way of looking at things. I see where you're coming from on it. And there's crimes, when I say crimes, there's situations where, and you touched on it, that people need to be held accountable. Without referencing particular ones, of recent times, there's been some tragic motor vehicle accidents.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  And, yeah, the driver in the vehicle may have been reckless in their actions or whatever, not talking about specific cases. But if a lot of people have been injured, killed, or there's been carnage from their actions, quite often the public are calling out for, there has to be a punishment here.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  They're the difficult ones, I find, because, yeah, you and I, and in their work in policing, I'm sure you've seen it through the courts, there are some people, yeah, evil people, and whatever punishment they get, they deserve. But there are these other people that make mistakes and where the public are crying for, we need to blame someone, we need this evil person that's created this carnage. But quite often it is just an accident.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  It is just an accident. And look, I think the law, the law, you hear a lot about the big sentences. And I know with the Hunter Valley crash, which was absolutely tragic, but...

• 8:57Speaker 00

  That's one of the ones I was thinking of, yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  But he had a, I mean, he was quite severely impaired from what I saw or had some drugs on the system. But what you don't hear about, and I've dealt with a lot of them, where there has been a motor vehicle accident causing death.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And we've almost got a non-conviction. Because it has just been a complete accident, whether it be sun shining in someone's eyes, a person standing where they're not supposed to be, whether or not the car has got a fault which you couldn't have possibly known. So there's, on the scale of seriousness, I think that the way the courts look at it is the level of recklessness.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  What you should have done and what you could have done.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  And I think especially with those ones as well, it's a real general deterrence. So for example, if you're going to drink and drive, this is what's going to happen to you. If you're going to carry a car full of idiots and something happens, well, you should have known that. But then in saying that as well, you've also got the peer pressure where a lot of people are driving, they're taking drunk idiots home. What do they do? But looking in saying that though, the worst thing about that is there's never any intention. Somebody will, I say that when we've just had this MP issue that's going.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Generally speaking, someone's not in the car lining someone up going, I'm gonna hit you.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  That's, that's, I think that's where you're getting at.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's an accident that, yeah, and I don't think any of us could say we've been driving, if we've been driving long enough. We've concentrated one hundred percent, uh, yeah, one hundred percent of the time. You, you get distracted. You might be changing the, uh, changing the music on, on the. Uh, well, I was gonna call them radials, but we don't even have radials. But yeah, like a distraction, sneezing.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Sneezing.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  You, you, you're looking at, at something on the side of the road and all of a sudden you, you come back and oh shit, there's a, the car's stopped in front of me. There's so many times that we could make, uh, make mistakes.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Well, definitely, and when someone honks. So somebody in front and then that takes your attention away.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  So the, the unnecessary use of the horn is a, is a unused charge, I think.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Right. I, I know I, I did a podcast series in, in prison and a lot of the prisoners, a maximum security prison. And they're in there for serious crimes, but they said, yeah, the, the public's perception of punishing people in, in prison. Anyone can find themselves in prison. I'm, I'm sure being a defence solicitor, being a, a cop. You would have seen people get time in, in custody that, uh, for all intents and purposes, you would never, uh, never predicted it.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  No, exactly right. And for someone to go into custody.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Um, prior to me doing this, I'd sit there and go, wow, that's, that's a huge thing. I mean, when you see how much it happens.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  And the types of people that do go in, um, I think the, the saddest one is the one punch.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  You know, young drunk guys will hit someone, hit them in the wrong spot or something like that. And then, you know, because it's alcohol, it's at a pub, it's violence. I mean, the starting point's jail.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And they're just starting their lives. So, you know, unfortunately for me and for what I see, you know, jail's not a, a strange concept. It's, it's a part of everyday life.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Which I'm, I'm a little bit desensitized to it, I think.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  And then people can find themselves in there very easily.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Oh, very easily. And my motto is good people find themselves in really bad situations all the time.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And that was, and, and you see a lot of it as well. Um, I had one recently with, um, a, a young fellow dressed up for cosplay.

• 12:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Thought he was doing the right thing with cap guns and all the rest of it.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  And then of course, no, the, yeah, illegal. And so before you know it, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's looking at, you know, facing criminal charges for firearm charges. Eighteen trying to dress up in cosplay.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  And that's just a little bit of naivety.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  Well, we, yeah, you look back at, uh, yeah, the mistakes you make and you, you're talking about a carload of lunatics, yeah, driving around. Who wasn't involved in that type of thing when you were a kid? Yeah. And, and we get drummed into you, but you did, and you look back, you look back as seventeen where you're all, uh. The brain hasn't properly formed. You're getting freedom for the first time. You're, you're playing around with alcohol and you, you've got your idiot, uh, idiot mates encouraging that. People can make mistakes.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  No, and look, without self-incrimination as well, can you imagine if the cameras, when we were growing up, if the cameras were around like what they are now?

• 13:24Speaker 00

  I've got nothing to hide. Have you got something to hide? Yeah, I know, I know what, I know what you're saying. Well, it is a different world. Let's, let's wind it back. What, uh, what did you do before you joined the cops and what inspired you to join the cops?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  No, certainly. So I started off, I did my law degree.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And I was working while I was doing that law degree with a law firm by the name of Oates and Smith.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Now, Eric Oates was an ex highway patrol police officer.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember Eric.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, um, he had a firm that looked after all the, the pre-eighty eight or the post-eighty eighters, um, that were going on medical discharges. And that was my first exposure to the police and dealing with them and the police association, which were in the same building. And it's something that I always wanted to do, but I wanted to finish my law degree.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Um, I finished my law degree and then as you do when you plan life so well, uh, my daughter came along. So I couldn't straight away go down to Galvin.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  So I joined, um, another firm, which was just a commercial firm.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Which is fine and it was good. It was, I learnt a lot about businesses and things like that. And then I joined a firm which did banking and finance.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Now they did all the, the grubby caveat loans back in the day, which you're now not allowed to do.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  But I learned a lot about conveyancing, fraud, banking and finance and what have you. And it was from that that I springboarded down to Galvin.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  So back in those days, we had Ken Schneider's who ran the, he was a sergeant, uh, who ran the prosecution education program.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And so if you're a lawyer, you could go to Galvin and instead of the first semester, you did two weeks.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  And then you did the whole second semester.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Which worked well when you've got.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  So they, they, you got, uh, recognition for prior learning in, in the legal topics and, and, and different things. You still had to do the physical component, the firearms.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And Redman and the Lobster Man and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. So we did all that. Um, and then you obviously did your probationary year.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And the, the idea was normally you'd have to do three years before you went on to your specialist command. This was, you did the one year and then you went straight into the prosecution education.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  How, that, that's interesting. How, how, how did you find that? Because I know the majority of us have not got a, a law degree background or understanding of the law. And so when we go into, um, that first year as a probationary constable, you, you're wide-eyed, bushy-tailed and have no idea what you're doing. And the whole world's confusing to you. Um, and yeah, you're trying to get, uh, used to the powers that you have a police, as a police officer. And then the terrifying exposures of giving evidence in, in court for the first time. And it's usually for a shoplifter or something, yeah, a minor. Um, how was it for you? Because you must have been looking around and that, with, with your legal brain and looking at what the police were doing. Were you conflicted in, in certain aspects?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. But I, um, I strangely, I had a field training officer who's still a very good friend of mine, Matty in Denau. He slapped that out of me pretty quickly.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I remember on my first, uh, though.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Oh, were you the smart ass that's questioning? Well, why are we doing?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  No, they got to me before that.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  They found out that I was coming.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And they said, well, we'll give you to Matty in.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  He's a, he's a no nonsense copper.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  And what he did was there's this hill down the bottom, I've forgotten the name of it, down the bottom of, uh, Marrickville where the PCY is, and this is a steep hill.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  This is my first day on the shift. I thought I was looking pretty cool in my uniform and I have a gun and I was.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  Exciting times.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I thought I was, I thought I was wonderful. As you do, you're proud.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And he stopped down the bottom of the hill and he said to me, I've been shot on the top of this hill. What's the name of the street? I said.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Showing you how little you know.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  I said, I don't know. He said, well, you better get to it. And he made me run up the hill. Full uniform, boots, belt, everything. So I learned and I did it.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  And so, um, and they, they, they tested me with a few of those little, little tests and I, I didn't, didn't answer back, so.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Okay, cause they probably didn't want you coming in as a smart ass questioning everything that they're doing with your, your law degree and quoting case law and they're, you're confusing them. They're just. But we always arrest people for this and, yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, well, look, and I, I just learnt so much and it was such a great time of my life and my career being out at Marrickville. And there's just so many things that I did wrong.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  And having these great people around me, especially with a, a search or something like that. It made me realise, going back to that old famous quote, the wise man knows that he knows nothing.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  And when you're a probationer and when you're with someone, even with, you know, been doing it for two, three years, what they've learnt is.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Completely, yeah, completely different.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  But it's, uh, it's, it's an interesting, interesting time, but yeah, you make mistakes and I look back at the mistakes I had made and I, I just cringe and. Yeah, they're not mistakes out of bad intent. They're just totally ignorant to, uh, what you're meant to be doing.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  No, I look exactly right.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  And there's, and all other things I used to sort of try to, then yours only there for a year.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  So they tried to give me the whole rounded experience that when I did go into prosecution, I understood what they were going through on a frontline streets. As opposed to just sitting there getting the brief and, and criticizing.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Well, that, uh, life experience too, that's another aspect I hadn't thought about it because, uh, yeah, uh, quite often I'd be in the witness box at the court.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Being judged on what I did and I'm thinking, you have no idea. I've been awake for twenty four hours. I had all this pressure on the, there's life-threatening decisions that I'm making. I've made this decision. You now, two years down the track with the benefit of hindsight and a brief of evidence are in questioning my decisions.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Um, but getting that experience, be it in the, one year out on the streets. It would have shown you that there, there's another side to it. Would have given you some understanding, but also compassion is probably not the right word, but. An understanding of what police go through.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Oh, exactly right. I, I used to find, the other thing I still find the concept amazing.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Is we used to do these walkthroughs, uh, you know, the, the check in the pubs.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, the walkthroughs, I, I don't know, I'm out of, out of touch now. I assume they still do them, but that was a strange experience, wasn't it? Like as a kid, because you, you were virtually a kid and you're walking through, walking through the, the pubs in your uniform and, uh, all the smart ass comments that have been thrown, thrown at you.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  But then, but the other thing is, which I used to love though, was doing the user pays. So if you found a concert you wanted to go to or something like that, you could throw your hands up. But strangely enough, when I was in the prosecutors.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Everyone used to buddy up.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  And it used to normally just be me. So I'd just be wandering around with no tasking. So I just generally.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  So that was, uh, by the time user pay came around, I was, uh, I was in homicide, so I didn't have much time. So I wasn't, I wasn't looking for overtime. I was trying to avoid it. Cause it working around the clock. My user pay was close personal protection during the Sydney Olympics.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I remember, yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  That was, I, uh, had a, an option doing tactical policing, um, as in with the TOU or with, um, close personal protection, I thought. Okay, close personal protection, head of state, front row seat at all the main Olympic events. And I wasn't disappointed. That, that was my user pay. The, the two or three best weeks of, uh, my time in the police, I reckon.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  No, they, oh, they're great fun.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  They're great fun. And I actually didn't used to do them for the overtime. I used to actually just pick the ones that I wanted to go to.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Wanted to go, go to, go to the concert.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  And then I figured if something came up or you, you'd see it or you'd get a radio call. So otherwise I'd just sit back and enjoy.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Can you recall your best one?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  The Pink concert.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Because I, I was actually, and I got in a little bit of trouble for this because I was by myself. And um.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  You're sure you're on user pay or not just dressed up in your uniform and went there?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Just just just dressed up, yeah, nah. I was definitely user pays and um there's the big door going to backstage and all the rest of it. And um there's the big burly bouncers. I thought I'd better not go in there and then I sort of thought to myself, well, why not? I'm in uniform, just walked on, walked on through backstage, had a good little look around and everything. It was it was fun seeing the concert from that side of the side of the fence. And then just wandered back out again and yeah, that was kind of kind of cool.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  The strangeness of of being a a police officer and uh yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  I was doing proactive policing in the in the backstages.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Prosecuting.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  So you did your twelve months on the street. Any other, any scary moments or before we move on to your time in in prosecuting? Any scary moments, funny moments or just, you know, crazy times that most police experience at some point in time?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Well, look, there's lots of crazy moments. Um, I think one of the most um memorable was uh the detectives arrested a bloke up at Merrickville Pub.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  And they never had the the squad car or the the paddy wagons with them and we were obviously general duties. So we went and picked him up and he hated me, this bloke, he just hated me. He um he couldn't think of anyone worse than me, especially when he's in the cells and he kept chanting my name. And it was at Newtown cells where they were underneath the court.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  So it got to the point where the the judge was actually starting to get a bit cranky about it as well. And he kept getting into me with with uh one handed and backhanded comments and they are actually quite funny. And I think he said to me, he said, you're so bald, your police car doesn't need a sign, you just need to stick your head out the window and stick your light on it.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  No, I'm not laughing, yeah, the defence of uh bald people, but uh.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  And um I I might have had a cheeky uh comeback to him in relation to my baldness. Because as being a bald man, we're pretty used to the comebacks and I'm pretty good at them.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  But he ended up getting so cranky with my retort and remember, I've been copying this now for the last hour.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  That he head butted the perspex glass window.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And then um he almost knocked himself out. And I remember thinking, oh, you goose.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  But at least it shut him up.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  At least it shut him up. But no, look, it's, I think though that I was quite lucky that nothing major happened. There was a there was a major murder that wa- was down in the streets and it was come to case law, which I find quite interesting, which is the Mother's Day murder.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, what what what happened there?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Basically, what happened, she was a battered woman.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  And on Mother's Day, the husband came around, uh she stabbed him.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  And killed him and he died in the middle of of of the of the street, just down near Kashmir College. But she was actually found guilty, but then she appealed it and it was, the defence came out that she was, she was, she was.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  A battered wife.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Battered battered wife.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Um, so that was a really interesting one, because you got you got to see it.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  All the way through. So, yeah, but that was that was probably the biggest matter that we had down there.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  But there was lots of um lots of petty theft and things like that and it was it was interesting seeing how the the crims worked.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  So, for example, if they're walking around carrying dog food, you know, they they, you know, they're going to do a break and end it because they're just trying to shut shut the dog up.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  You know, little things like that, which um, you know, a a normal person would sit there and go, well, they're just walking around with dog food.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  So all those little tricks was was lovely.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  There there's little and, yeah, we got in into specialist policing fairly early in our career. But you've got to have a respect for the people that stay in general duties their whole career.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  The the and and the knowledge, if they're workers, like I'm not going to say every police officer is a hard worker. But the hard working police officers that stay in general duties their their whole career, full credit to them. And little things, you say the dog food, I I remember, you know, driving around the early hours of the morning, middle of winter. And the a person that was the the senior on the cars, looking for cars that haven't got frost on it. Now, but what's that about? Well, they've just pulled up, what are they up to? They might be doing the break and end and might. Yeah, little tricks like that that you you pick up just through it through experience. Um, did you get any experience, do you have to give evidence when you're in uh in uniform at court?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  I did, I did, and that was an actual interesting occasion, that one. Um, and once again, for some reason, everything that came around me came with a little bit of drama. And this was.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Nothing to do with you, it's a world picking on you.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yes, and it was a lady who um, it was a domestic violence offence with her roommate. So we had to arrest her and we we we took her back to the station.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  And what she did, which is quite often, when people are handcuffed, they spit or they do whatever they can. She propped her legs up so when we opened the doors that she was going to urinate on us.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  And I saw it coming and as I closed the door, I shut the door and it was it was a and we ended up having to drag her out out of the car because she was quite at a rate. I don't think anyone likes, but I think there's a level of intoxication.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  And um I was asked under cross examination, they he the defence lawyer said to me, um. You've put in your statement that our client was eight out of ten drunk. And I said, yes. And he goes, well, what do you base that on?

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  And I said, well, the fact that she tried to urinate on us when we were pulling her out of the truck.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  And he said, well, you didn't put that in your statement, did you? And he was trying to criticise me. I said, well, no, because out of fairness to your client, that's got nothing to do with the offence.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Oh, good answer.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  So um that one um that one got him stuck, he was a little bit caught out on that one.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  That's that's that classy, don't uh ask the question if you're not sure of the answer.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Sure of the answer.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  But and that was the only time in uniform I had to um I had to give evidence for for as as a police officer.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  But there there there and there's is a skill there, isn't there? Like that that answer, I I could see a lot of people getting trapped in uh, you know, getting bogged down with the defence barrister going at them. Or why didn't you put it in the statement? What else in the statement's not true? What else have you forgotten? And and then it, the actual issue's forgotten about, but the poor person, the the witness in the witness box is getting carved up. But uh you had that little bit of uh of of smartness from your uh your your lord.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we did before I actually even joined the the police, we did a few small matters, you know, did a lot of drink driving. It was nothing of any major significance. So I sort of understood that sort of side of things.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  Do you, do you think that uh police says enough training for police for uh court experience? Do you think that I I'm not sure what they're doing in the academy now, I I assume there's mock courts and different things. But do you think we get enough the experience?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. And the worst witness, because I look after and represent a lot of police.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Every police officer thinks they are the best person to give evidence in the box and they are just not.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  As if you go in there arrogant and cocky, I can guarantee.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  You're gonna get carved up.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the defence lawyers, they know and we we we train in it. And what they don't understand is that we see the same answers, we see the same offences so much. That we see those same answers all the time and then we manipulate it to a way that works for us.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  So for every.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  You've got the cheat sheet already.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much, pretty much, from just doing hundreds of them. Because there's not, when you've got sort of any offence, whether it be drink driving, whether or not it be something like that. You know, you you the answers can't be varied to any major degree that we don't have an inbuilt uh defence or or or retort ready to come back.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  And a lot would it would be in uh some circumstances, a blind leading the blind. Like a the more senior officer who's not very good in the witness box telling, I just don't take a backward step. You do this if they say that and I I see, I I'm curious, I I found that the most pressure of uh policing, like in the witness box. Anyone that uh goes into the witness box and uh says they're not nervous, I think is stupid.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  Like uh e- even you're not hiding anything, but just no, you're in in for a battle. Most of my service was done in the Supreme Court, uh the the for murder. But I still think the local courts were the bigger battles and I was fortunate when I came through that we did spend a lot of time in the in the witness box, um more so than I think police now. I'd I'd have police that would get to uh major crime and never have given evidence in the witness box. And then the first time they're giving evidence in the witness box is at a murder trial. And I think, yeah, time and time again, I was called in the witness box when I was in uniform or a young general duties detective. And that's where you learnt your trade.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I can't think though of the last time that I got a police officer to give their evidence viva veris. So I'll just to sit there, we we normally just tend to the statement.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Especially in the local court. So that's why it's so important that they get their statements right.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  And the problem that they've got now, especially with A I and especially these young lawyers that know it all. Well, they put all the statements into their little generator and they say, pop me up the inconsistencies.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And then before you know it, you know, and and that doesn't then take account for, you can sit there and say, well, there's human frailties where one person sees something a little bit different.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  But then, once they've got this sort of this added technology, it makes it even harder. But then if the statements are too similar, then we say there's been coercion. Yeah, so it's difficult for them.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  That's where police get uh caught up. Did you consult with anyone before you've done your statement and, you know, a hard no? And then the defence is looking, oh, that's curious because you've both spelt the uh spelt that word wrong. And uh, yeah, that sentence is exactly the same. It's cruel and that that's why I ask about um. I I think it's really throw throwing them in the deep end, in their experience in court. And it's a skill, it's a skill that you have to develop, you it doesn't come natural. And they I I think they need more training in it, that's uh my my sense of it. I uh I went into plain clothes fairly early and uh I had uh Jim Williams was one of my first work partners.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  And he'd been a a detective for a very long time. He set me up and I I've told this story before, but you you'd laugh at it from a uh your point of view as a defence solicitor and former police officer. We're working the wireless car, so we're working all night covering the area, but but we had a court matter the next day. I'm tired and I'm thinking, I've got to learn this statement. Jim's going, don't worry about it. It'll be right. It's only a break and enter or whatever the the charge was of relatively minor charge. I'm gone. But you know what? You've always taught me to learn my statement. Don't, don't worry about it. It'll be fine. And I'll go in first and I'll take all the heat off the, from the, or the shine off the ball.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  They used to say, cricket terminology, as in he'll go in first and then I'll go in and there'll be nothing, nothing to do. Don't worry about it. And then it come the next morning, ready for court. Jim's gone, look, I'm, I'm not feeling up to it. I've got to make a call. I've got to do this. I can't go in. You're going to go in first. And I've gone in first and it's only a two or three page statement. And I've gone, shit, I'm going in the witness box. I thought I had all day to read the statement. I'm in the witness box and I just got carved up, carved up to the point. I think I came out with my tie around my back and just, and that's why I wear a white shirt in court now. Cause I had a blue shirt on and it was just covered in sweat. Everything that I thought, there was no issues there.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  I was carved up in the witness box, got out and I shattered. I thought, okay, clearly plain clothes isn't a career for me. They've got to keep me out of the witness box. After the court proceedings finished, uh, Jim introduced me to the solicitor, who was a mate of his, and they set me up to see how I'd react under pressure in a court matter by Jim's going, ask him this. See what he says about that. See what he says about that. And it was a lesson. And Jim said, okay, the thing that you take away from this, you never ever go to court without preparing properly. And I hung on to that for the rest of my career and it served, served me well.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we always used to say preparation prevents piss poor performance.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, definitely.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  We had, um, in saying that, uh, reminded me, I had a matter down at Albion Park Court with magistrate Clisdale.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  And we had a highway patrol copper and it was a pursuit with a young kid on a, on a dirt bike.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And I threw everything at this copper. I gave it, and he had an answer. He had an answer to the point where I've just gone, look, he's, he's, he's won this. He's won this round. I can't. He's got me. He's got me with everything.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  And, um, the reason I remember it is because at the end of it, magistrate Clisdale said to this young bloke, he said, oh, well, you know, you know, I found you guilty. You know, hand me over your licence. And he was, he was guilty as sin. And all I could feel from the back of my neck was spittle. So he spat on his licence and then he frisbeed it.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And it stuck onto the gown of magistrate Clisdale.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Well, that would have gone over well.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I was sitting there, here we go. Now we're in for contempt charges. But he didn't. He just took it off him and then just wiped it down and said, you can go.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  Good, good of having that restraint because it must, must be hard and they get, they're easy to criticize judges because they're never going to make everyone happy. But yeah, police in the, in the witness box, the other thing that, um, yeah, I, I would try to pass this on. That knowing that if you're the defence barrister or solicitor coming at me and you're going, uh, Inspector Jubelin, you're vastly experienced homicide detective, aren't you? You've been doing this for a long time. Yep. The more compliments they're giving me, the more I know I'm going to get hit over the head with a lump of, yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  So every time they start off complimenting me and after about the third or fourth question, I go, oh, I'm not that experienced. Cause I know something, something's coming. But they're, they're, they're a skill set that you develop and you learn from your mistakes in the witness box. And you identified that the, the police that come in that, yeah, they think they're great in the witness box. Humility is not a bad trait to take into, into the witness box. Like, yeah, I believe this to be, uh, correct, but I, I could be wrong. Yeah. Without saying definitive answers.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, the young ones though are fine. They just get, they take it really personally.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  And they don't, and that's when you get them. Once you get them emotional, that's when they start making mistakes and they just want to, they just want to retort back.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Pat, that, that's interesting. It's almost, I, I had, uh, this is in homicide. So they're relatively experienced detectives. Just outraged that they got criticized in the witness box and, and take it personally. And, but we haven't done anything wrong. And I'm going, yeah, I know, but that's, that's the way this works. You're going to be criticized and especially in front of a jury. They're going to try and just trip you up and, and make you look and get you to react.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  And make you look silly. And, and one of the, the, the really simple maneuvers that we do.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Is an investigation has to stop somewhere.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  You, you can't investigate the whole of Australia where there's a crime scene. It's got to stop somewhere.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  We find out where it stopped and just take one step over that line. And we, we make something big out of something that's nothing.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And then we say to the police.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. You're an asshole, Pat, but go on. Yeah. I, I know. I, I'm just reflecting on all the times that's happened to me. Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  And we say to them, well, you didn't investigate this. Why not?

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  He goes, well, I didn't think it was relevant. And it wasn't relevant. And they, and the next question to them is, well, this courtroom thinks it's relevant. Do you think that you've got more experience or knowledge in this courtroom? You've got to say no. Then you, you top it back with, would a good police officer have taken this evidence? And that's when you've got them.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  You, you, you're pretty well stuffed there, aren't you? Like it's a hard one to, uh, hard one. And in front of the jury, the moment it goes from cocky, confident, and then they're seeing the, the body language change in the, uh, the police officer that's a witness. But that, that I had Winston Terracini, he, that came up against, against him quite a few times. And, uh, he, in one particular trial, it was a murder trial, and he made reference to some forensic examination that needed to be done on the exhibit. There was no results that came back. So it was irrelevant. It wasn't, didn't really add to it, add or subtract from, from the case at all.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  But he kept talking about the London report. It was sent across to London, but it came back with no finding. So say we're going for some DNA, they couldn't extract the DNA in London. So did you get a report? No, because we couldn't, yeah, nothing came back. The, the, the records came back. Well, where's the London, uh, report? Well, there is no report because they, they didn't extract any further DNA. But he kept referring to the London report throughout the trial. I swear to God, by the end of it, the judge is referring to the London report. The jury are wondering what's happened to that London report. There was never a London report. If you say it enough, everyone's thinking, well, the police didn't get the London report. That's a, you know, a mark against them. There was no fucking London report, but they kept, uh, pushing.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  And what is it? Watch my left hand while my right hand slaps you in the face.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  But it's, uh, there is a theatre to, theatre to the court.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. Especially with juries.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And I find that juries, juries will convict if they don't like your client.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  If they walk in, they carry on, they scoff, they, the evidence doesn't even need to be there. And if they dislike your client, a bit on the flip side, if they like your client, you know, it can be a really strong case.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  What's your take on juries? You, you, you like the jury system?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Well, yes, because it does give an orbit. I still believe that the way that, and, and there's books on all of this. And there's a, a book that Judge Hazel pointed me towards.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  But it was one of those books as to what you used to do to pick a jury.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  So you'd know that if they, you know, had earrings on and they're a male, then you can sit there and, and put certain stereotypes. If they had long hair, stereotypes. If they had tattoos, stereotypes. If they wore jeans, you know, you could, you could pick all these markers, nationalities.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  But then you look at it now. I mean, you could have someone walk into your courtroom, ripped jeans, tattoos all over their head.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Nose piercing connecting to their ears. And they could be the CEO of one of the biggest companies, you know?

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  And I still am the firm believer of the fact that there's three dominants in any jury. There's six that don't want to be there.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And will just carry on. There's three that sort of are interested and they want to, but they're very easily swayed. And then you've got the three dominants.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And so it boils down to finally really a jury of three. Um, and that's just human nature and that's what you do. And I think that's why you've got the 12 there.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  To hope that that sort of balances itself out. I find it, I still find it so funny, well, not funny, but I, I find it amazing that when the foreperson gets up to give their jury or their verdict, you look at the reaction of all the other jurors.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  And it's never smiling, looking, there's some that are looking down, shaking their head, some that are trying to clearly display that, you know, they've been bullied into this decision. Um, there are some that are staring steelily at your, your client going, well, you know, they're out for it as well. Um, the dynamics in the jury room will never be understood because you can't put cameras in there to say it. And people always act differently when there's cameras as well. Um, and the problem being is if you talk to someone, their perspective is going to be different to, to everybody else's. So, look, it serves a purpose.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  And I think it's still better than the, the judge alone.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  But when there's a really technical case, then you just want to judge alone. You don't want to.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  You, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah, the, the jury system initially, it came in centuries ago to be judged by your peers.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  And, and the world was a different, different, different place. And your peers probably would have been the group of people that live within your village. You know, going back to the historically. Now, life is a little bit more complicated. You've been judged by your peers, but a lot of information is excluded from the jury because we don't think they got the, uh, the intellect or the understanding to not place or the, the appropriate weight on that piece of information.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  Um, I see in, uh, in murder trials where the jury excluded for a voir dire, so an argument whether this piece of info, uh, evidence should go in or, or should be excluded. And then they come back and they're thinking, I, I would imagine what I'd be thinking if I was in the jury room, what's been discussed for the past four hours? Why we've been asked, all of a sudden that witness has, it's stopped and we've been sent to the jury room.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  And you'd be speculating. Do you think we should put more trust in the jury system and allow all the information to, uh, be forthcoming?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think probably there should be more pre-trial issues so that all of this stuff is determined pre-trial.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Okay, that's a.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And then the only times that the jury gets pulled up is if something goes skew if, or there's an inadmissible question. Or, you know, something goes sideways. But all these, all these other things. Um, I mean, we've got now so many mentions, readiness mentions, this mentions, that mentions, but, uh,

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  And look, I say this and quite frankly, I don't, I, I, I fall foul of it. So I'm saying, do what I say, not what I do.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Um, but, you know, technically all these things should be, should be preempted first as opposed to with the voir dures should all be pre-trial issues. And then by the time you get to the trial, this is what they're hearing and this is why.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Okay. And then you, you, you judge it on that.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Cause I agree with you. I agree. Imagine sitting there and then getting sent outside.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  But then you, you also look at the NCAT, um, when they have their little secret hearings. I think it's under section 55. So back in the day, if you're doing, say, a, a working, an appeal for a working with children's cheque or a firearms licence, well, that can't do anymore since Bondi. But once you've run the hearing, the Crown and the members sit there and discuss privileged information that we're not allowed to see.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  So, do you know when, when, when copper's putting uh uh um intel?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  So they all get to discuss all of this stuff about your client and they can be in there for two hours. All this evidence that you're not privy to.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  And you can't even gipper it.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I'm just making me think about, I've been on the other side where, yeah, we've got this information, you need to know this, but we can't. You are not allowed to know the information that we've got.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:25Speaker 00

  That's in the defence.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And, and the gippers, now they're getting retracted more and more and more. And I think the, the New South Wales Police, when we issue a subpoena, I mean, they're, they're hiring these private firms.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  To, to, to combat, you know, the subpoenas, when you sit there and go, but just, somebody's liberty is at stake here.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Just show us.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  And then if it's not relevant, well, it's not relevant. I mean, we're officers of the court.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  The, the other thing that, uh, yeah, the, the judge used to warn the jurors at the end of, uh, the day's hearing. That not to read the papers, not to, uh, yeah, uh, watch the six o'clock news and you, yeah, rely on what's in here. How realistic's that? Do you think jurors don't go home and get straight on their computer and, and Google?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Of course they do.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  E- exactly. So, I like, I think we're living in la la land, thinking they don't. Maybe, and may- maybe the judges are instructing this way, look, you're gonna be aware of information about the, the accused person. Through social media or a variety of things, but what you've got to make your decision on is based on the evidence that is being tended here at court. Do they give?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  No, look, they, they, they always say that, but if, look, to sit there and say to somebody, you, you know, don't read the newspapers, don't discuss it with your wife. Exactly right. My wife will wanna know, I mean.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  What happened? I can't tell you, as long as you don't tell anyone else, I'll tell you, yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and then, I mean, but then there's also sort of funny sides where they say, you know, you see your, your jurors out. We always leave a little bit later, but you see them, you put your head down and they always say to them, you're not allowed to speak to legal counsel and all the rest of it. I do remember on probably one of the last trials I did, we left and I was driving home and one of the jurors was getting person searched just down the road from the court. I thought, oh, do we?

• 45:08Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Well, you can't do background checks in Australia, so we don't know. And obviously he's being searched for, uh, under reasonable suspicion, of course, they, they would have had that.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  So I thought that was quite funny when I was driving home to say that.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Look, it's, and again, I, I think that's what's so fascinating about the court system because most people will at some time, I would imagine, find themselves in court in some capacity, whether as a witness or may- maybe that's unrealistic, but at some time, a court's gonna impact on, on your life for, for most people and it's an area that a lot of people don't understand. It is something foreign and it's very nerve wracking for people the first time they set foot in the court.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  I do love the, I do really enjoy when the judge gets called your majesty. That happens a lot.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  When they come in and the rituals and, you know, and, and people just don't know, you're not allowed to sit at the bar table and, and, and things like that, but it's, um.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  What's that, what's that movie that's got the Australian actor? Is it David Wen- Wenham? It's a, a classic, uh, the, the movie where he's in, in, in court being accused of something. He's a junkie, he's been accused of something and he just totally turns the court upside down because he gets, yeah, they can't swear him in because he doesn't understand the question. And then he can't read the document, so he ends up borrowing the prosecutor's glasses and spits on them and cleans the glasses before he reads it. It's just, yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  No, we, we definitely get a few of those.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Uh, and they, they come in all the time and straight, they, they, they mean well.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  And they, but they just don't understand the system and they don't understand the actual, what the offence is. And they don't understand as well that a mitigating circumstance is not a plea of not guilty.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  It's a did it, but I've got some pretty good reasons for it. And the amount of times, I reckon those poor magistrates, if they could have a recorder to say, this is what a plea of guilty is.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Oh, so I did it, but you don't understand because he started it.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, so we get, we get a whole heap of that.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  But we also get, um, when you start off a jury trial.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Uh, they read the names out of everyone involved and you've got the, the panel behind and, and everyone standing there and then we have to stand up and

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  show ourselves and they always sit there and say, well, you know, if you know anyone in the legal team, then you've got to leave. And strangely enough, or I shouldn't say strangely enough, but it shows my group of friends. Anytime I get someone that's up there, they obviously.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  They're on home and they put their things up and so they get excused. They always have to make a comment while they're walking out. Whether it be, see you at the footy, beers Friday night, or, and you sit there, please don't.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  And, and you do, a lot of your practice down in Wollongong, do you do trials down in Wollongong?

• 47:52Speaker 01

  I do trials everywhere.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  So I do trials, um, in Parramatta.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Um, Sydney, Campbelltown, um, Wollongong Coffs. So we just go, obviously where the crime occurs, that's, that's where you go to. So we don't have a, as criminal lawyers, we float.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  I mean, to say that we've even got a home office, and I'd say this, I'd say ninety percent of criminal lawyers are the same. I mean, to say that they'd have one court or one home base. Even if they've got an office in Parramatta, we, we just, we go everywhere.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Tr- travel.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  So it's not just, but, um, cause I grew up in Sydney.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Uh, so I've got a lot of, and I was a prosecutor here.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  So I know.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  How, how, how long did you, uh, were you a prosecutor?

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Eight years.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Eight years.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Eight years. So I did most of it at Sydney Central and the Downing Centre. Um, which was interesting, Sydney Central, I know they're doing up now.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  But they've still got the old, um, out the back near the prosecutor's office, they've still got the, the brackets for the way that the hanging leaps were. So that was.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Like a bit of tradition.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Well, nothing like a bit of tradition. We've had some, um, there's been some amazing things going on in that court.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Um, the rats are the size of cats back in the day when we were there. Uh, but it was, that was a really interesting court because it was a custody only court.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  They didn't really do, so it was all the really serious matters that went there. Or if something came from the airport, you know, one of the federal matters or Commonwealth matters. So that was, um, there was four of us that were down there at any, any one given time.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  But that was, that was some big crime that we saw coming through there.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Explain the role of a, a police prosecutor.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Okay, well, it used to be, when I first started, you'd put your hand in a, in a bag and pull out a brief.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  At nine o'clock in the morning and you'd run it.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Um, if the brief was bad, well, so be it. There's not much you could do about it. We'd try and sort of triage it as much as we could. If we're in court five point one and just say your matter fell over.

• 49:53Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  There you go, here's another one. And you'd basically be talking to the police officer as you're walking to the court. Right, tell me what happened.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  And you run it on the fly. And half the time you can be halfway through the matter and you're, oh, okay, this is, this is a bit of a problem. Now, towards the end of my career, that all changed.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  So the brief handlers got taken away from the station and then it went to the prosecutors.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  And they had this thing called cradle to grave. So we were supposed to do the, the quality control and all that sort of stuff.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Take it before it's served even?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yes, before it's served, have a look at it. And, and prosecutors were allocated to commands and, and all that sort of stuff. So shift the focus of blame. So if something happened that was bad, well, then they'd look at you and go, why didn't you pick this up?

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Um, it was a heavy workload in relation to it all. And so that's sort of how it finished up.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  But I still think that the advocacy experience that you get from picking up a file within five minutes and running it and having to pick up the issues. Instead of having handwritten notes all over possible defences was, was amazing. We'd, you know, you'd sit there and the training for the prosecutors was next level.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  So three out of, the month was four months. The first week of every month, we were out of Parramatta.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  You'd do an exam every Monday and then the rest of that week was classes. Then for the next three weeks, you were in court.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  For the first three months, you were supervised, so there was someone with you the whole time. Then you slowly, slowly graduated to hearings, being supervised, and then you, you had to get signed off.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  And you had to do a certain amount of hearings. So the advocacy train, that was what actually wanted, made me wanna go there.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Um, there's legal aid who basically sink or swim, similar stuff, here's your files.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Run it.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  But I just, that level of training, I just, I still think is better than any university, any, anything. Um, I'm not sure if it's the same now. But when it was under Ken Schneider's and all those guys, it was just a really.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Well, they were, they were battle hardened court, uh, gurus, weren't they?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  The, the, the old prosecutors.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 00

  They've been there, done that and, uh, can hold their own against some of the, yeah, anyone in the, in the justice system.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the best thing is, I mean, if you've got a list day, just say you're in court four point five, uh, uh, in the Downing Centre.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  You got to see in any given day twenty sentences.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  You got to see QC's from, or SC's from Winston Tarantini.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Down to a fresh legal aid ALS lawyer. You got to see all their techniques.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So you get to see and you, you form your own sort of technique, cause that level of experience of seeing that day in, day out.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  It, it sinks in.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you've got a high range string driving, you've got then five different scenarios or five different ways of doing it.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  The way.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  That you've just seen. And you pick out all the best bits and then you, you, you create your own little one. So, yeah, the training with the police prosecutors was, was absolutely amazing.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Um, before you, uh, before you went into prosecuting, you did some time in plain clothes and you, you were looking at, uh, one of the, because of your background, working in finances and probably, I dare say, your, your law degree, you're looking at cat fishing.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Tell, tell, tell, tell us about that, cause it's, yeah.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, this is a, an amazing romance scam was one of my biggest ones that I had. This is an old lonely bloke. He was uh, living out in, in a country town. He was, and despite all the policing computers, I'd never, couldn't find him. But he, anyway, he met this, um, American girl.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Um, and when I say he was, he was on the older stage and he looked quite weathered and this is a, a young, beautiful American girl, sending him photos, sending him, I love you, this, and, and this is after three weeks. And strangely enough, she was, she was sending, he'd request photos and, and she'd send them. And what she said to him was, look, um, I love you, I wanna be with you, I'm gonna start sending uh, all my money to you.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Where, where, where's your bank account? Could you give me your bank account details? And he said, no problems at all. Here's my bank account. And lo and behold, in this money started coming.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  Hot lady that wants to send me money and, yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  It was all coming from different names and different this, but he just saw money coming in.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  And then, um, after that was going on for about three weeks, I think there was about forty or fifty thousand dollars in there. She said to him, um, oh darling, my mother's sick, um, I just need that money back now. I've taken enough out for a case of beer for yourself, um, but could you send it back? And then I'll put it back in once, once I've, I've sorted the mum out.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  He goes, no problems. So he, he sends it back to the account that she nominated. Now, that's when the phone calls come through of the fraud.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  And it was a really clever fraud. So what this person had done is they found all these unit blocks in Queensland, cause they have very high rentals up there.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  They went and took the mail, so they worked out, say, um, Mr Jubelin lived in, you know, room three O three of this apartment.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  They'd work out who the rental agent was, because it's very easy on these short term rentals.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  They'll create a, a, an email, so G Jubelin twenty two, which is now at hotmail.com, email them, sorry mate, look, I've just changed my email address and my bank account details. Could you put the rents in this account from now on?

• 55:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  So the real estate agents.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Were putting all the rents into our, our fellow's bank account.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Who he thought it was coming from.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Her.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, from her.

• 55:29Speaker 00

  And then she's.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Siphoning.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Siphoning off and went to Columbia and then it was gone.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  But, um, this poor bloke got charged because it was all coming out of his account.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  And he, he, he did, he, to his credit, he produced all the messages, all the everything and.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  And he'd just been a poor lonely old bloke that'd just been proper scammed.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  It, it's a, it's a horrible crime and, and not just the, the loss of the finances, but it's playing with people's emotions too, isn't it?

• 55:53Speaker 01

  And I think there was a fam, the famous saying, Ca- Casey Donovan, I think, got catfished quite badly as well.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  Did she?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And there was another person who pretended to be Wally Lewis's son, I know that, um.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  And, and, and it's catastrophic effects and I think it's one of the biggest frauds.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and yeah, it's becoming more prevalent, I, I would suggest, that, that type of thing with the communications, but, uh, frauds, we're, we're so vulnerable in the, with the technology, like we've got the safeguards there, but, um, potentially vulnerable.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  And you can't sit there, the, the hardest thing is you can't sit there and say to this weathered old bloke, didn't you see the red flag of this hot young girl, there's a little bit of a scale of.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  I, I, that, that's what.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  You can bat.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. That, that's what, that's what I think is, is really cruel about these crimes. It's playing on people's vulnerabilities.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I don't even know him, but say a lonely old guy that someone's showing some interest in and let's exploit that. And you see it time and time again.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  And, but even when we talk about it, you hear people say, oh yeah, I've got this person that's, uh, overseas, that's really interested, I haven't met them in person yet, but we, we, you know, communicating, we're gonna get, catch up, like, warning, warning, there's a lot of red flags there, isn't there?

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Oh, exactly right. And it just, it just happens so much. I think it's one of the biggest areas of fraud now.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  You can do as opposed to just the, the old school, you know, blue collar fraud seems to have been a bit harder, it's harder to detect now, so.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I don't think it's gonna work if you steal a chequebook.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  It's gonna be a bit hard, yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  No, exactly right. But no, so I did, I did a bit of that fraud and then, um, also a little bit of, uh, employment fraud, so the, the, the workers going in and that was interesting.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  So just, um, that was never big stuff though, it was more, you know, and I, I always felt a bit bad about that when the employees were stealing necessity items.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  I feel very different if somebody's walking around stealing, you know, um, high end perfume.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  To stealing deodorant, you know, you sort of sit there, oh, look, I don't really wanna be doing this, but, you know, anyway, it's been tasked and I've gotta have an answer for them, so.

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Gotta, gotta, gotta do it.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Yes, that was my main role in plain clothes and, um, interestingly enough, and I think I'm a constant butter, I'm still very good friends with a lot of the guys out at Marrickville. I never wore a hook on a truck.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Never. So it was either, yeah, so when I was.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  That's, what, that's for four, five, five years for hook on the truck?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so, well, no, well, once you get out of probationary, so it's one year.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, oh, that's right. I, I'm sorry, I, I should laugh about this, this is why New South Wales police were being criticised for not having an experienced police force, cause they lost a lot of, lot of police. So what they did was just bring the, the rank structure down. When I joined, it was five years to get your first hook, cause the first class council.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  So, okay, so that's.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  It was one year.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  And so I did sort of six months when, when you have nothing.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  So you're a probationary council, then I was in the suit.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  For, for the rest of my time and then by the time I got a, a hook, I was in a suit.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  And, um, or by the time I got that rank and then, um, I still ordered them though. I wanna make sure I had the little epileps.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  I'll give up on the epileps. I only walked away with a charge sheet, but anyway, that might lead us, we might talk about, uh, police being charged, cause you, you, um, represent a lot of the police that have been charged.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I do.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Different, different things.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  We'll, we'll, we'll talk about that, we might have a, have a break now. Um, I wanted to cover more of you on the good side before I took you to the dark side, but we fell into the dark side pretty quick as a defence, but, uh, yeah, some, some of the matters that you've, uh, you've handled, your take on the quality of investigations and, you know, whether police investigations are better now than what they used to be, and we'll touch further on that. I also wanna have a look at, uh, where you think the future of courts, investigations, all that with A I.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's a changing world and we've got to adapt with it. And, uh, I'd like to get your, uh, your take on that and, uh, a few other things. So we'll have a break and back for part two shortly.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Cheers.