The night police dog Vader outperformed an entire human team: David Raymond Pt. 2

Vader was Australia's most fearless police dog. This is his story. In Part 2 of I Catch Killers, Gary Jubelin sits back down with retired Queensland dog handler David Raymond, who spent 36 years in the job, 26 years in the Dog Squad Vader tracked offenders for 3-4 hours through dense cane fields, found 7 fugitives hiding in one night when no human team could, and once held onto a wanted criminal by the thigh while David punched the driver through the window of a moving 4WD to stop him. David also breaks down the jobs that didn't go to plan, ramming the wrong red Holden ute while chasing an armed hold-up offender 80km south of Cairns, and arriving at a bloody scene that looked like a murder but wasn't, plus what the harness, booties, and heat management really mean for dog welfare, why a dog can sense fear and adrenaline before a handler can see it. You can watch I Catch Killers on Youtube here. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  In part two of my chat with former Queensland cop David Raymond, we dive back into the wild world of policing with a dog by your side. David takes us through the dramatic arrests and high-speed chases he shared with his faithful partner Vader, the police dog. I've always thought dog handlers have the most dangerous job in the cops. They're front and centre when things go sideways, chasing down offenders in real time. It's policing at its rawest. But dogs don't just catch crooks. They save lives and crack cases wide open too. This episode is a wild ride. Have a listen. David Raymond, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Given the amount of arrests that Vader's made, maybe we should call it Vader Catches Bad Guys. Call this episode because he's certainly caught a few. You, 26 years as a dog handler or 36 years in the cops, it's a long time in the cops. I'm going to embarrass you here a little bit, then I'll attack you after that. You've got a host of awards from your policing career. And I'm not making light of this. They're important awards. The Australian Bravery Medal, the Queensland Police Service Valor Award, the Australian Police Medal, Commendation for Brave Conduct, Notorious Service Award. You should be very proud of your service.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And when you say you're going to embarrass me, look, I'm very much supportive of people who've earned those medals to wear those medals. You know, we had this medal that's for 10-year service in the Queensland Police Service and everybody got that. That's from the cleaner and they called it the cleaner's medal. But if you do your 10 years of policing, you deserve that medal. So wear it with pride, you know? I think it's just the most amazing thing. I often hear people put that in the drawer. Well, I don't think it should be set in the drawer. You've got that for a reason, you know? And yeah, so yeah, and that's just it. And being operational for all that time of the 36 years,

• 2:52Speaker 01

  you're going to come across these jobs and you're going to pick up those awards. You have to be at the right place at the right time. And that was me. I mean, you've heard the term shit magnet, which all the coppers seem to use. And that was just me. I just tended to be there at the right time at the right spot. And I loved every second of it, every second of it.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  But it's a long service and you haven't shied away from it. You're out there in the front line. So you should be proud of it. So that's my compliments to you. Let's take you down a peg or two now. But you even managed to pull this one off and I'm not sure how. So one particular arrest in the book. The time you and your mate Andy rammed the wrong car in the pursuit and very bravely arrested the wrong man who was protesting his innocence. Even with that one, you came out smelling as roses. Can you tell us, can you tell us what happened there?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  There was an armed holdup, which had happened about 80 kilometres south of Cairns, a little town called Inisfar. And what had happened was old mate had assaulted his partner. He'd threatened her with a firearm, a pistol. Then he'd, on the way through, he'd, full of drugs, full of alcohol, hopped in the car, started driving towards Cairns. On the way, he did an armed holdup and I stick up at the, one of the local convenience stores there and continued on his way. We had a big troop carrier at that stage, the two dog, the dog squad had a big troop carrier, the big bull bar on the front. So if any car didn't ramming, which we were allowed to do in those days, we would be able to ram the car. And keeping in mind that this bloke was armed and obviously dangerous and with five shots, that we were sent down there.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Plus, if he escaped, we'd be in a position to track him if we needed to. We're driving down the highway. We get to a little place called Behenna Creek. At that stage, we've heard another vehicle is ahead of us. That we were following, we were following a uniform, marked, uniform car. Behind us, it was us with the dog squad. But further on, there was another uniform car that had stingers or the road spikes, if you like. And they were going to throw these road spikes out and hopefully punch a four tyres. As we're driving along, this bloke is described as in a red Holden Ute. So we're driving down the highway. We get the call from the vehicle ahead with the tyre spikes.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  We've stung the car, four flat tyres and we've gone, beautiful, here he comes. At that time, we're sitting in a car with headlights coming towards us. The uniform car, it's a red Holden Ute. So the uniform car in the front of us has done a U-turn and we've done a U-turn as well to follow it. We've overtaken that car because we thought, well, we got the bull bar if we need to ram and ram. So we ever took that uniform car. Whacked our lights and sirens on. Old mate's done a left turn up this little dirt track. And we thought, he's running. We've got on the radio, he's running, he's running, running. We're following him and we haven't wanted to go any further. So the driver of the vehicle, police vehicle, I was sitting passenger, has rammed into the side of the car and I've gone, hey, no mate, he's got a gun, he's got a gun. I don't want to, I don't want to be on this side. You know, it's all for you to do, but I'm going to get shot. So we rammed the car, but we haven't given him any chance.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  And we jumped out and we've dragged him out and thrown him onto the ground and smashed the window because he wasn't going to, he's looking as if to say,

• 6:08Speaker 00

  What's going on?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  I don't want anything to do with this. So we dragged him out, thrown him onto the ground. We're sitting on top of our little prize. And all of a sudden, we've looked and we've seen on the highway is this, we've heard this car coming along with four flat tyres. Flat, flat, flat, flat. I go on, look at my partner, go, what have we done? It's a red Holden Ute.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  What's the chances?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  This is, this is the best. What are the chances of two? These are single lane roads. It's not like your M5 or M1, what you've got down there, that type of place. But this is just a lonely street. And here's this car driving past two red Holden Utes in a row. So embarrassed. I remember old bloke, when I've dragged him down, he's going, I'm an accountant, I'm an accountant. Oh, yeah, yeah, we're Star Skin Hutch, whatever, mate. You know, that type of attitude and threw him on the ground, the poor bugger. So anyway, so just to end the story because it was a bit embarrassing there. A bit funny, a bit embarrassing. We hopped in our police cars. We thought, oh, well, so we handed him a uniform stuff. We said, you look after this bloke. We got back in the chase and followed this bloke. And again, we got in behind him. And this time, he did the same thing.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  He took, you can, with those, with those four odd now cars have gone 30 kilometres with flat tyres.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  When the tyres have been punched.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Even on rims, you know, they can, they can continue along for a long way. Eventually they stop. But so anyway, so we followed this bloke and he did the same thing. He went down this dirt road. I thought, oh, here we go again, exactly the same thing. We're sure we had the right car this time. And this is my story. So old mate stopped, he's jumped out with the firearm. My partner, the driver, has jumped out of his side. He's got him, pointing the gun towards him. My door was actually open on a cane, little cane paddock. And old mate was standing in front of this cane paddock. So I'd been hidden from view. So this is my story. I've run out and I've come out into the bush and tackled him with the gun and knocked the gun out of his hands. Whereas my mate reckons I jumped out of the car,

• 8:03Speaker 01

  ran around scared, bumped into him and the guns fallen away. So you decide which story you think is true, but I know which one I want to do.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Well, how lucky do you get? You get the practice run to apprehend an innocent man and then you apprehend an armed offender.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, yeah. But how embarrassing, embarrassing.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  And Vader's probably got a different version as well. That he tracked, he tracked the person and launched himself out of the, out of the police car. So where the truth lies, no one knows.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  I've got another one that I'd like you to tell the story. And this is, I've made a note here, Vader solving a murder that wasn't a murder.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had a job, a male person that had been knocking on these people's fences.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  I I turned up, I was first on the scene actually, and there was um. It's like something out of a movie, because it was a brand new painted white picket fence, and there was just blood uh all over the thing. Where the deceased had been trying to get into the house to get help. That's what it looked like, and it it appeared to have stab wounds all over him. We, I got on to a track, the Ambos turned up and did their job, as did the detectives. I got on to a track and I tracked, it was it was only a short track, it was only a couple of hundred metres, maybe maybe a little bit more. And I've came to a house down the road. I've put the dog in there, the dogs indicated that somebody's in there, this is just a classic example of tracking.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  And unbeknown to me, there was also blood trails, so there was a blood trail all the way to this house. So if I had to follow the blood trail, I probably could have done it, but the dog actually did the job. So but what what's actually happened is unfortunately, because when when the detectives, I've rung the detectives, I said, get down here, this is where the offenders are, we knocked on the door, couldn't get hold of anybody, nobody came out. Uh eventually we got hold of somebody who basically said they'd been drinking with that fellow prior to it. And he walked home and he'd fallen over into, as a transport, he'd fallen over in the gutter. It actually smashed a couple of bottles of alcohol he'd been carrying, and one of them pierced um one of the major arteries.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And he'd managed to stagger all the way down there and tried to get in there, so it wasn't actually a murder after all that.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Right, but uh yeah, and these are the twists and turns, like when you saw that first up, you would have just naturally assumed uh it's foul play here.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Well, exactly, exactly, yeah, for sure.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  It's in interesting how these uh how these things uh turn out. Another time, and we're we're we're giving props here to Vader, but the the time that he caught seven offenders for one offence.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I love for you to motor vehicle, which is quite a common thing, I think, not just in Cairns, but all all the way around Australia these days. Uh and we have the pursuit policy, obviously, in Queensland, I'm not sure whether it's the same down south, but uh irrespective of what it is, you can only chase a certain offences. Uh and rightly so too, we we want to make sure the public are safe and and part of our mantra is to make sure that the uh suspects are kept safe.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  And look, ju- just on on that, you you said about the police pursuits, and we've certainly tightened up down here, and I would imagine in all jurisdictions about it. It's a real difficult uh situation, isn't it, with uh the the pursuits, where you've got a stolen car and it could be kids driving it, you don't know, you don't know who the person behind the wheel is, and not to pursue. And and yeah, I I think the public opinion would be, but you've got to chase these people down, but then we've also seen the horrendous consequences of a police pursuit where innocent people are being caught up in it, so it is a is a difficult call on which way to go.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  And then you've got that human emotion of the police officer, who all he wants to do is just catch the bad guys and put him in, put him in jail. I don't think people see the psychological side of that, knowing that you could possibly have stopped that happening. But due to policies and procedures, you couldn't do anything with it. And it's almost like the the the the police service right around Australia go, okay, well, because that'll be the first question they'll ask. If there's an accident, I say, well, were the police involved, were the police chasing, you know, the the bosses come back and say, were the police chasing, you'll be going, no, they go, oh, thank goodness. So that's there, that's a protect the brand to a certain degree. And and and I can understand where they're coming from there.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Um but it goes against every grain in your body when you you you can't do it, and and it it hurts when you know that you had the opportunity to probably intercept that car, whether it be ramming or whether it just be um trying to trying to stop it, uh that you can't you can't do it.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  Well, the road road spiking, uh that that helps, that's a that's a a way that we can contain the contain the situation too.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  And now we have police helicopters up here in uh all the major cities throughout the Queensland, which was a great.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  And you know, helicopters, pole air, it's limited, we've only, each state's only got so many uh helicopters, but I would imagine drones will come into the play pretty soon too.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Oh, you'd hope so, and they'll they'll just follow the thing and uh hopefully we can catch more. Um but but sometimes these things just make the person drive more erratically, you know, it's uh yeah. But but I I there's no easy fix, and and don't get me wrong, I'm not not bagging the department, but the Q P S has been the best thing in the world for me. And I love my career, uh but I just think there's a few things I could do better.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Well, let's uh let's get back to the story where you and Vader put a stop to uh stolen vehicles by catching seven people in one for one offence, tell tell us about that.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  I remember going down, uh the call was coming in to say that they've uh they've been seen down this dirt road. I started going that way, and as I'm going into this dirt road, coming out as a stolen car. That's one of the times when I had to stop all my uh um goodness in me to stop from ramming that car, it just felt like ramming it. Was it fairly, wasn't going really quickly, and I probably could have said, but being due, I knew they were due, and I was, I could see it in the car. So I rugged in, I just did a U-turn and started following at a distance to see what I did. I saw them come towards the highway and uh at their highway as a T-intersection. Um which was in those days, uh the highway was actually single lanes, now double lanes, so they would never have done what they'd done.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  But the car went through the intersection, how they didn't smash into anybody has got me beat. But they uh crashed into this cane paddock and I turned up a few minutes later, of course, everybody's out of the car, seven of them, gone into the cane paddock. Generally speaking, they don't go too far into the cane paddock because there's snakes, you'd say it's very hot, you're getting cut by all the all the uh cane. But you don't think about that, because it's only two or three days later, all the cuts turn up, so of course I get in there and um with the dog and we started searching for them and um. I think after, it might have been close on three or four hours, it was getting dark, because this happened about, probably at three o'clock in the afternoon, so probably about seven o'clock when we finally managed to round up uh the seventh offender.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Who thought he'd got away, and I thought he got away, I was actually taking the dog back to the car and and I looked up into the distance along this road, and just out of this little light pole, I saw this little head run across. I crossed the road into another cane paddock and I got off, okay, got him now. So I brought the dog back and I got the dog in there and tracked through and and managed to get the seven of them, so yeah, seven offenders and the one hit was a fantastic effort.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's that's a good clean up for that, and like, how else would you do it without a dog? Like realistically, and and you you made the point that uh policing up there, you have can't draw on the resources, the the resources are not unlimited from policing. So uh very real chance without a dog, they would have got away.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no doubt. You you might have got one or two, because a lot of them don't go into the cane too far, because it is a bit scary in there. But the ones that go in a fair way, the only way you're going to get, mind you, the the tracking area for that dog, because not too many people walk through the cane, so there's only one track in there, so that dog will keep following uh following the track. Two of them, two of them were running towards a cane farmer, and I thought they're actually going to, I was I was tracking them out and I saw them running off in the distance. I called police, so the police dog get on the ground, and I I saw them running as fast as I could, I thought they're trying to go away from me. But what they were trying to do is they were trying to flag down the cane farmer, so they'd get on the truck away from the dog. Oh, that scared the dog, they just wanted the farmer to help them out, so yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  What's the look on the uh fleeing offenders' face when they turn behind and they see a uh police dog coming at them?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Generally speaking, it's one of fear or they'll stop, and they'll put their hands up and go straight to ground, or they'll do as they're told.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Which is the main, the main thing they do, um but uh you know, the the problem is if you hide from a police dog, there's a big chance you're going to get bitten, because we don't know where they're armed, we don't know what their demeanor is, we don't know anything, so if you're out in the open, you're not going to get bitten. If you go into, run into and hide into cane paddock or into the bushes or under the house or something of that, I'm not going to risk myself, put myself in there, I don't know whether you're armed, whether you've got a firearm. So that dog's going to go and he's going to apprehend you and bring you out. So just a bit of advice, if you're listening, put your hands up.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Do okay, do you think that the dogs also, and it's like a primeval fear, like a savage animal coming after you, I think we've all, you know, uh can all understand that. We had a guest on the podcast, uh Horse, who is nicknamed, but an S A S bloke that uh dog handler there. And said when they're overseas in uh you know, combat zones or or war zones, that the dogs, they were looking for signs that dogs could pick up concerns and all that, they can almost smell the fear or smell the danger. Is that what you encountered uh working with your dogs?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Well, a bit of a story, I, there was a offender who had escaped from the police air wing, um which the the police air wing is a a series of aircraft that run between uh Thursday Island, which is about a thousand kilometres north of here, all the way down to Brisbane, and they go, they transport police for courses, mostly they transport prisoners to court or to prisons and stuff like that. So a young fellow had escaped from the air wing, the young detectives, uh let him off out of handcuffs and uh to go to the toilet. And of course, he's clogged out this window and gone. So they rang the on the on-call officer, so I turned up there and there were so many police out in the, the the air wing's on the opposite side, it's a bit

• 18:22Speaker 01

  difficult to explain if you don't know Cairns, but the air wing's on the opposite side where the main aircraft are, so they they fly out of there. I turned up there and there were a lot of police looking around this uh field area for this offender, I so I couldn't get a track. So I decided I'd go and do a bit of a search over in the uh across the the road there into the highway. And there were a lot of mangroves and stuff like that there, bushland. So I put the dog through there, searched, searched, searched, couldn't find him, so after about an hour, I decided, that's it, I've had enough, I can't find him, it was very hot. So I went, I started taking the dog back to the police vehicle.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And I'm walking past this street and I see three or four detectives standing outside this house, talking about what their next course of action is. I went down to tell them, I can't find them. They're standing beside, there, there's a fence there, there's a bush there and there's uh the house behind it. And I've gone in there, I, I reckon I've said, hey, team. Unfortunately, I haven't had any luck and the dog has just lunged into the bush and I've heard this blood curdling scream from this offender. He's been hiding in the bush right in front of these detectives. And it's not, no, no, he was hidden very well.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  But the adrenaline had just come off. He sees the police dog coming along and the adrenaline has just drained from him. So the dog knew exactly who he was looking for, if you know what I mean. So yeah. Straight in there and dragged him out and I said, there you go, got him bullish, see us. You know, that type of stuff. So, yeah, so that gives you an idea of the actual absolute fear that the dog has on it. But, but then again, also the dog feels the fear on you as well. If you feel uncomfortable doing it. Many times you'd be sitting in the police car and there'd be a call to say male person armed with a knife. At such and such a location. You, as a police officer, would be going through your head, especially a single officer, you'd be going, okay. What's the safest route to take? Have I got my gun there, guns there, firearms there? Uh, uh, thinking all this stuff. What's, what's my plan of action when you're getting there?

• 20:14Speaker 01

  So all this time, and you still haven't got lights and sirens on, all this time the adrenaline's coming off. That dog in the back starts crying and screaming going, I'm going to do a good job, going to do a good job. So that gives you an idea of what, you know, they, they know, they know when they're going to stuff. Yeah, yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  You, you'd have to put a lot of trust in him too, like when, when you do go into situations like that. You, you wanna know that your dog's uh on high alert and gonna do what uh, what he's supposed to do.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  And you feed off each other. He's hoping that you're a high alert as well.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And that you, you know, you can, um, you, you, you feed off each other. It's incredible.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  When you get a good result, do you sort of look at each other with a knowing grin? Does he pick up on the, the happiness and the pride?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Euphoria is the word because you just feel so glad. Because a lot of times when you're tracking, you go, this thing's following a kangaroo back it in. Or, you know, you're thinking what it is, but inevitably they're following the offender. It's just you, you're always second, always second guessing your dog. Even after 26 years, I was still second guessing my dog for some stupid reason. And generally speaking, once the dog's on that track, he's gonna find them. And when you find them, it's just such a great feel. It's just a really, really good feeling. Especially if there's other police watching, you know, which is a great thing. They, uh, yeah, cause a lot of times you, you find the offenders that, you know, you're four or five K's away from any help or anybody else. And, and so they don't actually see the, the, the apprehension and, and, you know, the 30 fences you've gone through, the crease you've gone through.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  And I, I remember I was COVID, I was injured, I injured my knee. And I was sitting in, at one of the COVID hotels where the passengers would come in and they'd be quarantined for two weeks, I think. Anyway, whatever it was, and I'd sit outside this, I was injured, so I decided I'd sit in there for the two weeks. And I remember one of my staff sending me through a photograph of a track he'd, of a track he'd done that night, unlawful use again. And I hear him going through the bush and it's F this and F that and F this and getting tied up in Wadea Wild and all these prickles and falling over rocks and stuff like that. But he finally got to the offender and, and uh, you know, police with a police dog come out and got the, got these couple of offenders from unlawful use. And the track lasted probably half an hour.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And I thought, I looked at that and I went, what the hell am I doing here? I am in air conditioning, watching, watching the cricket on the, the TV, getting paid double time and a half for overtime. And here's old mate, you know, my, one of my team out there going through, going, I thought, oh. But in saying that, the euphoria of catching somebody overrides every single easy, easy way out.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  You, you would ha, you'd have to have a high level of fitness, obviously, with it, to, to do that as well.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And that's a very important trait of every single dog handler we got out there. Uh, I was lucky because I never had to work on my fitness. I was just naturally had one of those, you know, in my genes that I didn't have anything. Come to, come to doing an exam or a test, you can forget it, I was hopeless.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  But coming to physical fitness, I was just very lucky that I'd, I, I was just a natural at physical fitness, so.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Cause you need that combination. You need the aerobic uh conditioning, but you also need the strength with climbing over the fences and the whole combination of things.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  And uplifts and some of the places you've gone, you just look and you go, wow, what was I, what was I thinking? You know, and you, you go back even now and you look at them and, and go. You know, one job I did where I was chasing an offender and I've uh, Vader's gone over the fence, I'll throw Vader over the fence. Um, it was a, an assault of an 80 year old woman. Dog's going over the fence. I've thrown him over, bang, he's gone. I've then climbed over the fence and as I've got to the top, I've tripped and I've fallen over the fence. And I've reached out to, to the ground to hit my hand and a picket fence, a picket, star picket's gone through the webbing of my hand in here.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And uh, ended up with stitches in here, but it's like, if I had have been another 20 centimetres that way, I'd got it straight through my chest. Or had I thrown the dog, you know, he would have been impaled on it. You just don't know what you're coming across to. Uh, but you, you, you just do it, you know?

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, that, that's the chaos of the, the thrill of the chase when the adrenaline's kicked in and the things that you do. Another one, you, you see, seem to have a predisposition for ramming cars or cars getting rammed. What's a story where uh, someone, the, the bad guy, I assume it's a bad guy, is trying to push your mate Mark's vehicle over in an embankment? Tell us that one, cause that's another chaotic story.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  The, the offender on this, in this case had done, he was wanted for about a hundred offences. And again, with the pursuit policy, we couldn't chase him. I, I, I had a bit of a personal one on this too, because I'd arrested him prior to that and had been put in a violent arrest where we had a bit of a, bit of a fight and I came out on top, but. And he was actually parked outside the front of my house at one time. Um, and my daughter had rung and said, there's a man in a car at the front and we traced it back to him. So it was a bit of a.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  That gets personal, yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it does get very personal when you're doing things like that. And he was just a loose, loose unit and just um, just very violent. But he'd taken up with a uh, with a female, introduced her to ICE and they decided that they were, and uh, as I say, he'd been wanted for a number of offences. We, again, we saw him on the highway, got a call to the highway, we were travelling behind him. Cause she got called off, we see him going to a cane, a cane farm, basically along the street in the distance. But it was at an area that I uh, knew fairly well. So I knew the only way that he'd come out was in this particular area here. Um, in this particular driveway, I thought that's the way he has to come out. There's no, no option.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  So I parked my car on that spot and it was only five, five minutes later, I see him come out of this particular road. Now, he could have probably reversed back that way, but there was nowhere to go because they'd have been shut off by another uniformed car. And in front of us was this big driver, this big steep driveway and, but it was, there was a uh, a fence, a wire chained fence that was there. So I had no option. The only way he'd go was through me. I was sitting in front, behind me was my partner in another dog squad car behind me. And we knew we had him fairly well contained. There was no way he was gonna get away this time.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  So he had to drive through and he'll drive through the, through the uh, through the fence. I thought, well, he's not gonna do that. Shouldn't have, cause that's what he does. He ju, he comes straight at me. Uh, I, I remember it was like the old duel in the, in the movies, you see. I turned my lights on and he turned his lights on and, and we revved our engines together. And of course he just rammed straight into, into the front of my car and didn't disable my car, but just I, I, I, I didn't get a bit of a shock. I thought, is he really gonna do this? Like, it's just like, is this real? Is this, you know, is this real? So he ran my car and then he's reversed up and turned his car around and driven straight through this massive big uh, gate and took it down. It was, it was two metres high. So going up the top there.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Uh, my partner's then overtaken me because I thought, is my car gonna go? He's overtaken me and started chasing towards the top. They got to the top of this hill and there's an embankment, there's a house behind us there. And uh, old mate, the baddie has decided he's gonna ram my partner's car. Cause my partner had parked in front of him to stop him from going anywhere. He was a fairly big four wheel driver, he was a Triton. This bloke had a big Toyota Land Cruiser. So he reversed up and started smashing into the side of my partner's, uh, my partner's car. I've come up behind him and I've gone, oh, here we go. Like he's pushing him towards the side of this cliff. Um, and I thought he was going to push him over the side. So I ran my car into the side of uh the baddies car.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  And then another police car, the D D O, who was a great bloke, he's come up and rammed into um the back wheels to stop the car from going. So there's always, it's written off police cars. And um what uh what happened is then I've managed to run around there and I managed to drag this bloke through the, through the window, cause the car didn't stop. He, he, one of the cars had got underneath the car, it actually lifted the back wheels. It was funny, and the wheels were just spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning. And um so we managed to get hold of that. But I remember getting out of the car and looking, there's lights going, there's, there's just damaged lights. It's, it's just chaos everywhere. There's all these pincers of vehicle, police vehicles around, and lights and sirens going off and everything like that. But when we got interviewed in relation to it, uh my partner actually

• 28:39Speaker 01

  had to get in, in his interview and basically say that he feared for his life and that I was his hero to be saving his life, just to get us out of trouble, I think. It was a bit of a tough pill to swallow.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  I'm just thinking of all the forms and all, all the paperwork. Like you see, you see that uh that stuff on T V and everyone just wanders or walks away from it.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Few days later, when the bill came in for all the damaged police cars, cause on the night, you rang the boss and said, hey mate, I've done this. Oh, great. You got him. Fantastic. But it's two or three days later and I go, oh, what's this cost us? You know, that's when they get all the penics and ring up and say.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  When the excitement's dropped off, yeah. And then the paperwork and then the bills come in. Um, uh, talking climate with dogs, and maybe this is an indication of the uh New South Wales dogs not being as tough as the uh the Queensland dogs. But I know when I've had dog squad people out, sometimes they say if the weather's too hot, they're not going to work. We're not going to get much from, from the dog. How does that play out in Cairns?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think these dogs get climatized, uh and uh and that's quite a possibility. But look, I've done a few courses with a few American um dog trainers recently, and it's changed my whole perspective on dog training. And now I've got, I, I, I train uh dogs for uh other government organisations now. And I've got these dogs tracking in thirty degree heat at two P M. In the afternoon. And I'm just surprised at how they go. I would never have done that when I was in the coppers because it was just, it was a bit of a myth to say that they're not tracking. I've, as I say, I've changed my whole attitude on that because now I know that they can do. And if I had have taken that advice on board earlier in my career, I would have tripled, tripled the amount of people I got, I'm sure.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Okay, because that was something you were concerned about with the heat and the, the.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. And it's, it's something. And you've also got to watch the dog because the dog will try, will uh track itself till it dies.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  So you've got to really be careful that it doesn't, you, cause you've got the thrill of the chase as well. So you're just going to push that dog as far as you can. And so you've got to really watch the dog. So I, I think it's not so much that they won't track in the heat. It's just that we want to make sure that we, their welfare is the most important thing.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Um, and the harness that the dogs would wear when you're, when they're on the lead? What, is there anything about the harness that's a little bit different or?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the dog has certain triggers. Um, if it's uh, you know, it may be the word, the command to bite, or it may be, but when you're doing a, a track, uh I, I, I think it's the same all the way around, but this is the way I'll teach tracking anyway. As soon as that dog's at the tracking area or close to it, the harness goes on and the command seek as well as that click of the harness are triggers for that dog to start, put his nose down and start following. So that's pretty important. Once the track's done, that harness comes off again and doesn't go on until there's another track. So the dog understands, associates tracking with the harness.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Okay. So that, that's sort of a switch on and, and switch off.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Scenario, like we want to take the kid off, that they, they relax, kick goes on, re- ready to go.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  They're ready to go again. Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Oh, that, that's uh, that's interesting. There's another one where, again, you and vehicles, you're on a vehicle that's moving, you're punching the driver through the window. And uh I think it ended in a, a side roundhouse kick and the dog biting him or something. What, what was that one about?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  There was uh another bloke who'd been uh wanted for, you know, and, and this, this, again, I think she probably comes in here, like back in the day, these offenders would have been rounded up very quickly, but they know that they can get away with it. So off they go and they hop in cars. So this bloke has won a hundred and thirty five offences. So he was pretty well wanted for uh unlawful motor vehicle, armed robbery, uh break and enters, just a whole, a whole lot of offences. And I was actually, you know, I, I, I was actually at an O S E S conference at that stage, which is boring, sitting in an, an office, listening to.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Lucky you got the call.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Like where we're going to, where our new, our new A P I's are, all that top of bullshit that goes on. So, and the inspector came in and he said, mate, this bloke's been seen down at, again, Innisfail, and he's just tried to run over a policewoman. I said, no worries, I'll get down there. As I'm driving down there, there's a call to say that old mate has been seen. He's just stolen a a RAV four from the golf course, um, the local golf course. I said, no worries. And I was driving past the street, so I dipped down that street. And as I'm going forward towards the golf course, I see this RAV four coming straight for me and he's going to hit, he's going to hit me. And I'm not that brave, so I pulled to the side of the road. I didn't go past, but behind that was another

• 33:19Speaker 01

  police car following, uh lights and sirens on. So I quickly did a U turn and got in the little trio. Again, uh too dangerous, call it off. So we, we let it go. And, but then after you stop a chase, you can then start patrolling for the vehicle in case he's dumped it, which is what you hope is. If you see it again, you can re-initiate the, the pursuit. So we started uh all of a sudden, within ten minutes, we get calls on the Palmerston Highway, which is about ten minutes out of town, to say this car had been seen driving erratically. So we all headed that way and I'm driving up and down these little farms. And in the Palmerston Highway, off to the side, little banana farms

• 33:58Speaker 01

  everywhere and dirt roads. So I was patrolling in this dirt road. All of a sudden, the radio comes, we found him, he's on foot, he's in a banana farm. I went, oh, okay. And they said Johnson Road or whatever. And I've gone and tried to get on the radio, but the radio is really crowded. People talking, I'm saying, where's Johnson Road? Where's Johnson Road? Got the dog, got the dog. Tell me where it is and I'll get a track. But I couldn't get on properly. And so I pulled to the side of the road to try, to key in the uh the coordinates in the, in the bloody uh sat nav. And all of a sudden, out of the, out of this uh banana farm runs old mate. And I went, how lucky am I? So I've quickly run out, Vader at this time has spied him and seen him. So I've run around the back and I

• 34:42Speaker 01

  haven't given, no lead or anything. I've just gone, nobody else is around. So I've gone Vader, Roush, you know, off you go, chase him down and tackle him. So off Vader goes, starts running and me behind, you know, uh distance back. And I see in the distance, a red four wheel drive, the farmer's car on the road. And I thought, he's going to get shelter in there. So of course he runs over there and I thought it's going to be close. The dog's going to get him. No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, fifty, fifty set each way. And but the offender managed to get in the car and slam the door. And the dog has smashed his head on the side of the car trying to get at him. And it didn't, the dog didn't get injured, he just got angry and he started running around this car. So I, I come, you know,

• 35:24Speaker 01

  thirty seconds later, I've jumped on the side of this car and the farmer, of course, being down there, wouldn't think somebody's going to steal it. So the keys are in it. So he reaches down, the offender reaches down to start, starts the car. A- as luck would have it, it's a manual. So he's forgot, the first time he's forgot to put the clutch in and the dog's running around as well. So I thought, well, if he starts driving off, I'm buggered here. So I reached in, I've just given him a good punch straight to the side of the head, knocked into the other side of the car. And I've reached in, managed to turn the car off. He's come back. This time he's put the clutch in and he started the car and started driving off. And I've, once again, hit him as hard as I could, knocked into the other side of the, the car. But I'm holding on to the side of the car with one hand, cause I'm on the, on

• 36:08Speaker 01

  the, on the step on the side there. Meanwhile, Vader's running around trying to find an exit, trying to find an entry point and bark and bark, bark, bark, bark. So um we're probably only going ten, fifteen Ks now, but I can tell, ten, fifteen goes, you don't want to fall off.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  No.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Um, he's come back again and he's reached in, started, cause when he's, when I've knocked him to the side, I mean, just turn the car off again, but I couldn't get the keys out because of the lock and all this going on. It's a dynamic situation. Everything's going on, your, your brains, it's a sensory overload. So this time he's come back again, but this time he looked at me and I thought I've got him. I could see in his eyes. He'd been around for three or four months, but this time, took your time, three or four days without sleep, everything like that. And I knew I had him. So I've unloaded on him as hard as I could this time and I've knocked him. And I've managed to reach and turn the car off. And at the same time, I've jumped off the car. Keep in mind that we were going, you know, we'd slowed down a little bit by this time, but the car was still moving. I managed to jump off and I've reached and

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I've rigged open the door and the dog's gone in this time and reached over and grabbed him by the thigh. And we're trained for this. We're trained for car extractions. So, but whether you get to ever use it in your career, probably not. But this was one where the dog's reaching and just grabbed him and just dragged him out. And it was just the best feeling in the world. The car wandered on its merry way for another, for another, you know, fifty metres. And I managed to jump on top of this bloke and break him into custody. It was just such a good feeling.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Did your family know about all your adventures like this? Well, they would have known forty five times in hospital, getting, getting treatment, but.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. The poor wife, she put up with so much over the years and, and you know, I, I can't thank her enough. But, and not, not just like, I would often, I would make a point that if I was conscious and I was in the back of an ambulance, I'd ring her and the amount of calls she's got to say, hey, and she goes, what have you done? And I say, I'm in the back of an ambulance and I'm all right, you know, I'm all right. That'd be my first thing. I'm all right. But I'm going up to the ambulance, you know, I'm going up because I've been injured. I've been fractured, you know, thing. I've still got, I've still got no feeling in the side of my hip where I fell once, you know, and things like that. So she put up with a lot and often went up to the hospital and, and you know, patched me up and sent me back out there, you know, like still need to eat, still need money. Let's, let's get back on to it, you know. So, I mean, I had a bloke, I had a bloke rip open my finger one day, bit my finger and ripped it open and broke

• 38:25Speaker 01

  it, you know.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Um, from, from biting. And then I got a chunk out of my, out of my path where old mate's taken a bite out of it, you know, and just, just animals, you know, really animals.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Well, that's, so, and you're arresting them at that, that really sharp end of it, where they're, they're on the run, they know they're on the run, the adrenaline spike, they're not laying there asleep, you're not catching them, you know, off guard. They're, they're pumped and ready to go. So that's why I would say that you've been in so many, you know, violent conflicts, because that's the time you're trying to bring them down.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And haven't, haven't won everyone, you know. I've, I had one bloke where he, I did a bit of a chase and he was waiting for me. I'd come around the corner of a, a house and he was waiting there for me. He belted me and split my eye. I got stitches in the eye from it, knocked me to the ground. We got in a bit of a wrestle and he was on top me, he had me. There's no doubt about it. Big, big, strong young fellow, six foot eight, muscly. That's my excuse anyway.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  He must, he must have been huge.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Um, dogs injuries, any, any significant injuries with the dogs in the work that they do?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  They, they do get injured occasionally, just mostly sprains and strains. We, we've never lost a dog on duty up here, as such. Surprise more, more good luck than good management, I think. I had a, my dog, Vader, one day jumped the fence and broke his little dew claw, took it in the vet the next day and the vet said he doesn't need it anyway and just chopped it off basically. And give, give, give me, give me a couple of days off mate, he's back out there, you know, and things like that, that, that happen. But generally speaking, a lot of strains, but a good thing about it is we're not paying for the vet bills. So that dog does have a, have a cough or something a little bit different, straight on to the vet and the vet was really good here.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  What's the relationship with the family and friends when they come around? Are they, can they switch off? Are they allowed to have them near children or, or that?

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Again, again, depending on the dog. Now knowing dogs the way I do, because I've learned a lot since I've left the, left the police with, with, just with my studies, I probably wouldn't put a police dog around any child. Not, definitely not, you know, unsupervised. But just in the way that dogs, you know, that they are, they are animals and I wouldn't worry about it. But my dogs were running around with, with my kids all the time, you know, we've got videos of them and stuff like that. More, more the Z type dog. The buddy was pretty good. But when they're a work mode, they're a work mode and that's when they, when they're, they're particularly vicious.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Now, sadly, yours and Vader's excellent adventure came to a sad end. What, what happened there?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Well, just one night, he was, I just put him away as usual. He was off his food, which was unusual for him. Went back to bed. I thought of his crook in the morning, I'll just take him to the vet. Woke up and yeah, I found him in the kennel dead and we think it was a snake bite.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  We, yeah, we're not, we're not quite sure. We took him, obviously, I, the vet, I wanted the vet to do a autopsy on him, but they couldn't find anything that specifically that had gone wrong with him. But they, they suspected it was a snake bite.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Oh, that's sad. How, how did that affect you?

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, obviously very, very difficult. But I don't think it affects us any more than your normal family pet. You know, we, we've got a, we've got a family pet here now and he's the most beautiful dog in the world. And when he goes, I'll feel exactly the same thing. But that's probably why I won't have any more dogs after this one's gone, that they're just too hard to say goodbye to. You know, they really are difficult to go goodbye to. So you, you are working with this dog constantly, continuously, but is it any better than, you know, your normal family pet? Everybody, everybody feels the same way about their dogs, you know. So, yeah. But the, the, the good thing about the police though, is as I say, is if the dog dies one day, within, within a few days, you're down getting another one because they're a resource. You've got to get back out there,

• 42:35Speaker 01

  get back on the horse. So you don't have time to grieve, you don't have time. When I lost Axel here, the Lions Club in the community put up a statue of, of his exploits. I've got another book coming out, which is entitled Axel, about his exploits. And he was such a legend around in the community here, that they actually put a statue up here. So he sits proudly at one of the local dog parks, the Mel McCastor Dog Park, which you've got in Cairns here. So, yeah, a, a great thing.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  That, that's a, that's a nice tribute to him. But with, with Axel and I, when we were chatting the other day, I was having a laugh because, you know, when you stay, you're in the cops long enough and you're, you're partners. And, you know, I was the annoying young detective working with the, the grisly old detective sergeant that I wanted to just get out and arrest the bad guys. Can we do this? Can we do this? And annoying. As I worked my way through the career, I had young people that I, I worked with or, or more junior, that were overzealous and you had to rein them in a little bit. And then you're talking about Axel and you've, you've been doing this for a long time and you've got this young dog that just wanted to get out there and get amongst it all the time. And I, I had to laugh because it's similar to a partner that you get in work

• 43:45Speaker 00

  where you're not quite, quite matched in terms of what you want to do. Tell us about your experiences with Axel.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Well, exactly, yeah. He was a pretty full on dog, as, as was my last one, Jed as well. And when you get to a certain age, you really don't, it's like, I can't imagine why at sixty or sixty five, you've got to have no kids.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  You know, like having a, having a little kid that you've got to run around with. It's the same with the police dog, you know. The dog was so energetic and ready to go. And I remember my first job I ever had with, with Axel was two o'clock in the morning, phone rings, of course, I get up there and Axel's just so keen to, to get out there and I open up the gate and he's jumped on in and I've been covered in mud from his uniform, from, from, on my uniform, from this dog just so keen to get out there and jump around. I, I really struggled with it for a long time with, with his enthusiasm and stuff like that. Because I'd get my dog out and off, he'd just sit on the track and do whatever he had to do. But this one just wanted to get out there really quickly and go, go, go, go. I think there's a story called the old bull, young bull story. I think that's what it is.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you know, the old bull and the young bull, he just wanted to get out there and get it. You'll get yourself hurt, mate.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  How, how did they react when you got called out? Was excitement, like the two o'clock morning call out and all of a sudden it's on? Was that sort of?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, one part it was, oh, one part it was. And, and you, you would, you would go get ready, you'd, you'd have your uniform ready to go, but you'd quickly get up and usually stunk because you'd been working for the night before, uniform would stink. So you'd grab on the deodorant. As soon as you just spray that deodorant on, the dog up the kennel, which would be, my place, it's probably twenty, thirty metres away, the dog would smell that deodorant and just start crying in the kennel.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Oh, they knew it was on?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  They knew it was on. They knew a job was going. Well, they'd hear the phone or something like that at all hours of the morning and of course.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Ears prick up.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  You'd hear them crying. Yep, yep. So you'd have to go and put him in the car and then come and get yourself, get yourself organised. Because I did one job once where I put in all the deodorant and I went, oh bloody hell, the dog started crying. So went out. Just be quiet, you know, and I raced back in. And at that time, I ran out, but I didn't put him in the back of the car because I thought my glasses. I raced back and got my glasses and then raced off to the job. And I got to this job where there was a young kid who had sleptwalked and off he goes. And the inspector's gone, uh, Dave, uh, this is what's happened. Blah, blah. I said, yeah, no worries. I went back, opened up the back of the car and the dog's not in there. I forgot me. So I'd gone forty minutes, lights and sirens at this job and had no dog in there.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I went, what am I gonna do? You know, embarrassing. Because I walked out gone, yeah, I'll get the dog, get my glasses, come back out, just up to the car, half asleep and off I'm gone. Anyway, so I went, I've got to fess up. So I just walked out the car, walked over to the inspector. I said, Inspector, can I see you? First egg, he says, yeah, Dave, won't be second. And at that second, behind me, I hear this, this sound from one of these uniform coppers go, found him. And I went, oh, I went, what? I said, they found him. I said, oh, okay, boss, don't worry about it. I'll just take my dog. I was like, yeah, mate, no worries. I'll see you. So I'm just getting out of that one.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Dodge the embarrassment.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  What was the, what was the work you did over in Cambodia with drug detection dogs? What was that all about?

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, a mate of mine, he rang me and basically said, uh, what are you doing after you retire? And I said, I've got no idea. And he said, well, what did you do consultancy work? And I went, well, where do I start? He said, why don't you come to with Cambodia for starters? And Cambodia, I, I, I thought, never thought anything about Cambodia or any consultancy work. So I went over there and he introduced me to a whole range of other duties that dog handlers can do. And one was, um, uh, landmine detection dogs, which he was training over there. I went over there originally to help with that type of stuff. But once they saw my background, they involved me into their military and policing side of stuff for the tactical dogs, which was great teaching, tracking and things like that.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  And, um, uh, and I, a big ignorant of the fact of Cambodia because of what went on there in the eighties, which is when I was at school, it's a bit embarrassing to realise I didn't know the history of that. But, but the loveliest people in the world, and, and one thing that really sticks with me is those people have got nothing over there. They, they, you know, they get paid hardly anything. They've got nice hospitals and nice city and stuff like that, but they've got nothing. But their suicide rate is half hours or, you know, even a third of hours. We've got everything here and yet we're unhappy. I just don't really understand. That's one thing that stands out with, with a place like Cambodia.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  It, it's interesting, isn't it? The places I, I've travelled, the poorer countries, everyone's happy. And they, they could be sitting down a, a alleyway, the whole family, you know, cooking, uh, cooking dinner, but happy. And, uh, it, it does say, say a lot about the way our society's gone and, uh, the direction we're heading in. We're lo- lost that, that, uh, sense of community and the communication. Look at, look at our, uh, look at our iPads and whatnot.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Look, the career you've had, um, I think is absolutely extraordinary. Like as in when, when you sign up to join the cops, you want the adventure, you want the excitement, you want the thrill of the chase. And you managed to, uh, stay in that spot for twenty six years. I'm sure you forewent promotions or opportunities in different things. Looking back, do you have any regrets whatsoever?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Uh, funny, not, not on my own career. I, I did, must have been there a couple of things that I wanted to do before I leave the police. And one of my whole ambitions was to help, uh, female, we've got no female G P handlers here in, in the whole of, the whole of Queensland. And I just find that a little disappointing and, and I'm probably going to get, um, get shouted down for that, but I, I don't really care because, you know. And, and we do get institutionalised, we do get institutionalised and we care for what we say. But I realise now I can say anything I want because the Q P S has been fantastic to me and I have the best career. But it's one thing I wanted to do, um, is get a female into the thing. And, and I think it's just a real macho attitude in that, that it's such a adrenaline rush job that a female couldn't do it.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And I think that's far from the thing. America, they're getting shot at and they've got so many female dog handlers over there. And, um, I think that's one thing that I really tried to push before I left. And I, I mentored, you know, two or three, uh, young women who would have been fantastic dog handlers. And, you know, um, those three are still waiting for jobs and it's a real shame. And couldn't do anything from inside, maybe I can help from the outside and just say, it's time, you know, Queensland, get yourself sorted.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  And I think just talking about it is, is a good thing and that, and it can become a cultural thing that, uh, yeah. We can't have a woman here. We've never had a woman or, or that. It, it should judge on its merits and, yeah, with your experience in martial arts, you know, there's plenty of women out there that could, uh, do the type of work that, uh, needs to be done as a dog handler.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  And, and probably bring another skill set too, that, that, you know, looking at it from a different perspective from a male as well. So, yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. And, and these, these, the girls I've been, um, mentoring have been very capable, very capable, you know. So, um, that, that's one of my regrets with, with, when I leave, um, you know, I tried that a couple of years beforehand. The other one, I think my, uh, regrets I had is I, um, started a little program which was recognising, because I don't think the police get recognised for what they do. It's like, as in, and, and no disrespect to the, the bosses, that type of stuff. They've got so much, they've got the rosters, they've got, uh, P P As, they've got all these, performance management, they've got all these other things that they've got to worry about. The last thing they want to do is recognise their staff for great work. Whereas I took that and I, I started a little, a little project for the recognised project, which the Q P S has taken on from what I can gather now,

• 51:30Speaker 01

  that we really need to recognise these people, you know, there were, there were people chasing people with guns and, and it's just like, oh yeah, whatever. And, uh, that, one of my regrets was not getting that properly set up before I left. Um, and a bit of a pushback because you'd also get some people who are sitting in those offices. Again, no disrespect, but they'd be going, I've done that million times, you know, like in my career and I'd never got rewarded. Well, I think it doesn't hurt to pat somebody on the back and we're in a society, we're in a, in an age now where people do need that pat on the back. You know, everybody gets a medal, everybody gets a reward, uh, an award. Um, is that right? I don't care whether, if that's what they want, then let's just reward them because I can tell you what, that really, really boosts morale when people are rewarded for what they've done.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  And, and morale's crucial in, uh, in policing and I just, I'll check you on one thing. We can disrespect bosses now. They can't get out of the stave. We can say what we want. They can't put us on a shit roster or transfer us. Um, yeah, you talk about K P I's and all that where they start running and, and, and policing is policing. And, and what reflects a good, uh, police force, I think, is it's, is it serving the community it's meant to service? What saddens me most in, in the police is that, uh, people's promotional opportunities are lost because they're hardworking cops, whether it's a uniform cop or, you know, working in the dog squad, detectives, any area. Quite often the hard workers are overlooked because they haven't got time to play the game that the ones that are aspiring for promotion play.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  I really had a problem with that throughout my career, watching that. I know I had a team of really good workers on homicide and we hadn't been promoted for years. We were doing some tough jobs and we're watching everyone else in the office get promoted around us. I said, I was a sergeant at that time. I said, let's just stop investigating murders for a bit and work out what this promotional game is all about, literally. Like we had no idea. We were just out locking up the bad guys, investigating things. And we stopped work for about a week and gone, it's not that hard. You've just got to say these words in the application, you've got to say this at the interview and that. Within six months of that, we'd all been promoted up the, the next level because we worked out how to play the game.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  And to me, that typifies where we get it wrong in policing, that we don't recognise the hard work that people are doing in all facets of policing. And they haven't been able to step off the spinning wheel that is a busy police career to play the promotion game.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and that's, that's, that's exactly it, um. Uh, in my, I had, I had some of the best bosses in the world. I was very, very lucky. You know, I've got, there's a few I didn't get along with, but, but most of them I, I've done pretty well with. Um, but I do see some of the people, I go, oh my God, if he got, that, that person got promoted, what, you know, what's going on, you know? But a, a good thing about Queensland, I think, and it might be the same around, that if those bosses who had very little operational experience would go to somewhere where they had to use that, they would use people like myself or the D D Os, the people who had all the experience and ask them. And we, we're more than happy to be involved in that thing because it is a big team. And, and that goes back to one of my previous comments that, you know, you can be sitting beside a person you absolutely hate,

• 54:43Speaker 01

  but I can guarantee if the chips are down, you're hurt, they'll, they'll come and they'll come and back you up a hundred percent of the time. That's what policing is. That's what, what type of team we are. So, yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Um, I, it saddens me. I, I see they're struggling across the country to get, uh, uh, police. What would you say if, if someone that came up and asked you, should I join the police?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Well, I often, um, I often push people towards the police. I think it's a great career. It's not the same as what we joined. Um, the new coppers don't know any different, so I don't agree for that. But I've never seen a job more accountable than anything, even from other government organisations. It always lands with the police, whether it's, uh, child welfare, whether it's, uh, mental health, whether it's domestic violence. Other people have got to take responsibility for that, rather than just dumping it in the police and the poor police getting, and get crucified, not only by the public, not only by the bosses, but by the media. And it's such a hard, such a difficult job to do.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Um, and very rarely do they report on all the good stuff that the coppers do that goes on, uh, you know, ten times more than the bad stuff.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Uh, look, a tough job, but rewards, rewards are endless and, and the type of, uh, yeah, exciting. You, you get so much from, from policing, but, uh, yeah, I, I hope people listening to you describe your career go, wow, that's, that's what can be done. And yeah, policing's changed, but they're still, you can still carve out a really nice career for yourself in, in so many different areas too. It's, you're not limited to being a detective or a dog handler. You could be a tactical police officer. There's so many things that you could, could do. So.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  You could be a coffee copper too, eh?

• 56:22Speaker 00

  Let's, let's not go that far.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  A lot of good, a lot of good mates in traffic, they'll be, they'll be bagging me.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Let's, let's all say we're only joking because they might see us when we walk out of the studio. Of course, it is very, very important. No, it's, it's good to take the piss out of each other sometimes too. And, uh, yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  And I, I know you respect detectives, even though you haven't said it the whole podcast. And, yeah, I, I've chosen not to say the only reason you work with a, a dog was because no one else would work with you. But we'll, we'll, we'll let that, let that go.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  I, Gary, I only had to know five words and that was sit, stand, stay, bite. And there was one other. I can't remember what it is, but that's all I had to remember. I'd have to do statements. I, I always put it down to if the detectives didn't ask at least five times for a statement, they didn't get it.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  Okay, that was the rules. Cause that, that, that was in keeping with the five words that you learnt to be a dog handler.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  It makes sense now. Look, we'll, uh, we'll wrap it up. Obviously it loved the, uh, loved the chat, enjoyed the, uh, chat. And, and congratulations on your career. We've, we've had a bit of a laugh, but I, I know that you were at the sharp end for a very long time. And, uh, yeah, you've come through with a smile on your face, you've come through in one piece and, uh, enjoying life. So thanks for coming on the, uh, on the podcast.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  As I say, it's a team effort and it's, um, uh, the whole family's come through unscathed to a certain degree. So, which is, which is probably one of my most important things. So that's great. And thanks, Gary.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Cheers.