What really happens in a women's prison: Natashcha Consigli Pt.2

After 16 months on bail waiting to be sentenced, Natascha Consigli was given 15 months with no parole. She tells Gary what her first night locked up was really like and how prison changed her. From getting a black eye from her cellmate and refusing to press charges, to realising at 52 how much privilege she'd had compared to the young women inside with her, this is an honest conversation about accountability, rehabilitation and what actually stops reoffending. Natascha now works with Success Works helping women with criminal records find meaningful employment because it costs $180K to jail a woman in Australia and a fraction of that to rebuild her life through a job. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  If you listened to part one, you'll know our guest, Natasha Consigli, lived a wild life, partying hard, working as a stripper and falling in with the wrong crowd. That path eventually led to a conviction for drug dealing and time spent behind bars. In part two, we pick up a story from there. Natasha opens up about her time in prison, how it changed her and what she's doing now, giving back to society by helping women less fortunate than her. I really enjoyed this chat and came away genuinely impressed by the person Natasha has become. Have a listen, see what you think. Natasha Consigli, welcome back. Part two, I Catch Killers.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Okay, we left you in, you just got arrested in part one.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Sorry about that, but it was always, always gonna happen. We talked in the end of part one that you decide, well, I'm not going to assist police. I'm not going to give a statement. And I think interestingly that you accept your responsibility. You weren't making excuses. I knew what was going on and I'll cop the punishment, whatever that might be. You got bail.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  How long did it take before you, you ended up in custody? And what was that time period in your life like and what did you do?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I got bail. I was bailed to Cory's home and she was meant to go everywhere with me. So I had really strict conditions. The prosecution wanted me to have no access to social media, like any kind of devices. The judge felt that that was unhealthy and wouldn't help me be in a good space. Because obviously this stuff takes a while, right? But no one tells you that either. You just don't know. You kind of just have a next court date in a month. Like every month, you think, yeah, every month you've got a court date scheduled. And you think that something's gonna happen. Nothing ever happens. It gets adjourned. There's lots of negotiations that go on behind closed doors around with your lawyer and the facts. And the facts are never the facts.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  The facts are the ones that the police decide that they're gonna write down to be the facts, right?

• 2:54Speaker 00

  But look, and

• 2:55Speaker 01

  At the end of the day.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  And just on that, I'll give it back from a police officer's point of view. Sometimes I'm sitting there and it's not just, okay, these are the facts. This is what's happened. But then you get the adjournments and then the, the facts are watered down or things are changed. By the time the person's sentenced on the facts, I don't even recognise what's happened. And that's in that behind closed doors, legal negotiation. I think the, you know.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  And they argue over one word.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Right, and I just go, what the hell for?

• 3:26Speaker 00

  They concede, we'll do this. And they say this helps facilitate justice and speeds up justice, but.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  It actually slows the whole process down, I'm sorry.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  I just can't believe how slow the, the justice system is. And it might start with, let's sit the courts a little bit longer during the day. Because there seems to be adjournments, breaks, lunch breaks, starts at 10 o'clock, finishes at 4 o'clock. Anyway, you've started me.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  I started something and I get that too. I think, you know, there's a lot of holes in how we decide what happens to people and how that this is decided and all of that kind of stuff. But that's a whole nother story. For me, it was actually quite straightforward.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  So I got bail. I was like, straight away, when can I alter these bail conditions? Like, I can't do this to Cory. She doesn't need to come everywhere with me. So, and she was like, can I get in trouble if, if I go out on my own? Like, we had to navigate all those things. And there's no, there's no website that gives you information. And when you call your lawyer, he's probably busy, he's in court or whatever it is. I was really lucky that he was a friend of my ex's, my lawyer. And he goes, just hang in there, Tash.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, explain it to her.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Just hang in there, just whatever, go and get some third party advice if you want. But just hang in there, it'll be okay. And he just said, look, with the bail, your mum can't get in trouble for anything. Or Cory can't get in trouble for anything. And just do the right thing.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  So we did. And I was on bail for 16 months.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  That's a long time, isn't it?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  It's a very long time.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Was that a big cloud hanging over your head the whole time?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Look, no, for me, in the beginning, I was frantic about it. I kind of was like, I just wanna know what's gonna happen. I reached out, I, look, they took everything.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Police confiscated everything.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  With the proceeds of.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, proceeds of crime. So, and I asked a couple of questions at the arrest. I said to the detectives, look, I have money that is from my earnings in my bank account. Are you gonna take that as well?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  And they went, no, we've got no access to that.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  And we're not. That was really important. And then the first thing I asked for when I was out on bail was my car, my phone, my laptop, all that kind of stuff. I lost my job, obviously, because I couldn't go to work.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  And it was all over the media. I was working for the council down south at the time. And, you know, it was part of our contract that we're not to bring them into any kind of. So they were kind of like, they didn't wanna let me go. So they asked me to show cause as to why they should keep me.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Employed. And I was just like, this is the least of my worries. Here's your, my god, here's your termination. Thank you. I've got bigger fish to fry here. And I, you know, I kind of just went, what, one thing at a time. How do I deal with this? Then deal with the next thing. I reached out to legal aid. And like I said, my lawyer just went, hang in there, Tash. Don't do anything drastic. Don't hire another lawyer or anything like that. But a friend of mine said, look, Tash, I've got a lawyer. He'll be happy to come and just consult with you. And he came around and he was really keen to represent me. But he also then explained some basic things of how it's gonna roll and what will happen next. And another lady I spoke to as well, she just goes, and by the way, I know that it looks horrendous right now.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  And you feel like you're the worst person in the world. What you actually get sentenced for and what is in, is gonna be two different things. And she was right. At the end of the day, that's kind of negotiated for you. Your lawyer checks in with you and makes sure that this, you know, how do you feel about this wording or this? And we're gonna try and get rid of this. And I kind of just went, I'm just gonna trust the process. At the end of the day, I've done the wrong thing, whatever comes from this.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Fatalistic sort of attitude.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I just, I just got to accept this. There is nothing, I've got no control over it. I had control prior. I made these choices. This is now how I've got to roll.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Did you have a fear of going to prison? Did you have an expectation that you would be doing time?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  I knew from the moment when we were arrested, I knew that I was gonna go to, I was gonna serve time. Something in my, I just knew. Everybody outside of me was very hopeful that because it was my first time that I'd been arrested, my first offending ever, that I was showing up and doing all the right things. So I went and cleaned houses whilst I was on bail for a couple of friends. So I got a job, really. And then I went, well, I've been wanting to do a diploma of counselling for god knows how long now. I've got the time, why don't I do that? So I signed up to online university and online course. And I did a diploma of counselling for 12 months whilst I was.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  Kept you busy?

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Kept me busy. I made lots of jewellery, so I make jewellery.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  As a hobby and I spend a lot of time just being creative. I'd get up each day. I'd face Cory and in the beginning, that was tough. You know, she was angry with me and so was Morgana and I just had to be in her space.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Those were the people that took you into their, their family, basically.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Always had and, you know, it had been a rocky road with me. And from afar mostly, but at different times. And this was just, you know, what, what the hell?

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Were you, were you scared about the prospect of going into prison? Because that can be daunting for someone that, you know, you've lived a life, but that's another world in there.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Look, so for, I don't think I was scared. It was more, what can I find out about it before it happens?

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Right, what do I need to get? What do I need to prep for? What needs to, you know, there was all these things. So I was living in a unit. I had to pack all that up with Cory and Morgana helped me put it all in storage. Live with mum, what do I take there? How am I gonna pay for that storage when I go to prison? How am I gonna keep my phone on? What are all the things that I needed to? So I just started getting my ducks in a row, the closer it got to. So once I pleaded guilty, I think 13 months in and then 16 months. 16 months, I was then, we've got a date for sentencing.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I did the, I had to go to community corrections and do, what is it, pre-sentencing report. Had to see a forensic psychologist. Um, I did all those things and I just showed up and just went, this is, I'm not making excuses for any of this, I'm just doing this.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  So uh, that time when you're on bail was, well, you got some qualifications.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  And you said, got your ducks all lined up. So you got your life in order.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I did.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  And just, okay, so when the uh, sentence comes down, if I'm going to prison, I, I know, I've done everything I can up until this point.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And I really thought about everything. And I think, you know, a lot of the women that I support, they have this kind of magical thinking, oh, I may not, right? And then their lawyers are going, oh, we'll do everything to keep you out of prison. What you then hear is, keep me out of prison.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  They don't get prepared. When you go to sentencing on the day, they don't send you home afterwards to go and pack up your belongings and say goodbye to your kids. So if you have children and you're going to sentencing, you need to say goodbye to them on that day before court. And make sure that they have somewhere safe to be, because otherwise, if you get locked up, those kids are gonna get collected by D C J. And you're gonna be in a world of pain. You're gonna lose your home, you're gonna lose your bank account, your, everything, just everything. Your bills are gonna amount. If you don't think about those things prior to this, you, the, the repercussions, I, I remember being in prison with women who

• 11:07Speaker 01

  went, oh no, I, I thought I wasn't going to prison.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Right? And then they're locked firstly for the first week under, you know, observation. No contact with anybody. The Sapo is too busy to see them and they can't ring anyone. They don't know where their kids are. They don't know where their animals are. They don't know.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  What was the sentence you were given?

• 11:25Speaker 01

  So my sentence was, um, it was really interesting. The judge took a break before he could decide. He goes, I just need to take a short break here.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Great.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  No, he did. He goes, I'm having a really hard time.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  With making a, a call here around um, incarceration. So he, he really, I think, but he had to go away and deliberate rather than sitting in the courtroom. I'm just like sitting there in the little thing. Got Cory and Morgana, her partner, and uh, my amazing friend John, who's been a mentor to me throughout this time, um, sitting in the court with me. And I had my little plastic bag with my glasses, reading glasses, some money, my medical scripts. Just things that I'd gone, what do I need to take with me? What will they let me take with me? Right? And the money is so that you've got money in your account straight away.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  So that you can make phone calls, that you can ring people, that kind of stuff. So it's really important to, to, to be prepared. Then he came back and he goes, so despite all the references and um, the, the showing up, the good behaviour. Everything that you've done whilst you've been on bail, due to the severity of, of your offences.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Or the, the one offence, and it was the knowingly dealing with the proceeds of crime, I'm sentencing you to fifteen months no parole. Um, and I'm like, hmm, okay, here we go.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  I knew it was happening.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Turn around, I'm just crying. I'm just like, I did that. Cory's crying, Garner's crying. I'm just like, okay. And they don't give you any time to think about it. And like, it was two and a half on top, fifteen months no parole. I'm like fifteen months.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Doing your calculations.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Uh, just, just going, here we go. Just gotta go for the ride. And they take you, they cuff you and they take you downstairs.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And you go into cells. And I'd been in those cells before, so um.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  When, when you're.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  When I was first arrested, they moved me to Wollongong before I got bail. Um, and I just was like, this is now my life.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Right? And I think that's another thing is, when I went to prison, I was mentally, physically and emotionally probably the wellest I had been in a really, really long time. So I was prepared for the worst. I was hoping for the best and just knew that whatever I had outside, that was still gonna be there when I came out.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  And I had to just go, that's all done. Now we're going here.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Concentrate.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  And this is just the new reality.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  And if you're not mentally prepared like that, it's like being propelled into an alien planet.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Like it is literally, it's the weirdest space I have ever been in. Like I sometimes would walk around the yard and just go, where the hell am I?

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Like you're on a spaceship.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Really like you're on a spaceship. And, and even like despite there's, there, there is friendship. And there's community and there's all of those things within those prisons, within the women and their, wherever they're at. But you have this feeling of, there's this uncomfortableness, like you want to constantly check who's behind you. There is always this unsafeness. And that is, and it's never quiet. Never. There's never any silence.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  And, and no personal space and yeah, it's.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, in your own cell, yes. But even then you can always hear.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Are the, there's, it's not, and I'd gone from, so Cory's house is uh, up on a hill.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Surrounded by bush.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  And it's beautiful, quiet. It's, I, look, I got to do my um, bail in the most loving, caring, safe environment ever.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Probably strengthened.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  And that strengthened me for what was to come. But that stillness and that quiet, that was all gone. And you know, I'm not saying poor me or anything like that. Don't get me wrong. That was my punishment. I had my freedom taken away from me for the things that I had been caught doing. And that's just, that's.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  And I, I think it's important that you, you've made that point frequently, that you, you're not crying poor on this.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  I got what, what I deserve. But yeah, prison, there's a punishment being taken away from society and in, in that environment. Did you have any conflicts in there? Did you, you get through?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had conflict, yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  How, how did you deal with that?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Um, so I've been doing child boxing for a long time, so I can defend myself, right? Um, but I really don't believe in violence. I don't, like from the world that I've come from and I now, like I just.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  That'll carry well in, in prison, but I don't believe in violence.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Anyway, um, I did, never felt unsafe in, look, that unsafeness of, in general, that feeling. It's just a, a general feeling. But I didn't feel unsafe in groups or within the yard or anything like that. And I had no reason to, because I wasn't, I wasn't on anybody's radar. I don't involve myself in anybody's things. Um, I stuck to myself. I did my time and I showed up in a way that was respectful to everybody, right? Because that's just what you do. Um, but not everybody has good mental health in prison. A lot of women don't. And I ended up with a cellmate who was really unwell.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Um, mentally really, really unwell. She lost her shit one morning and attacked me.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Um, so I ended up with a black eye and was like, just get off me.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Get off me, right? And she did. I walked over to the mirror, I looked at my eye and I just went, look what you've done to me. And she just stood there. And I just went, I'm gonna just knock her out. I just dropped my fists.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  And for me, that is, to this day, and I've spoken about it quite frequently, that is my defining moment where it was clear that I had turned a point within my own life because I was no longer going to become my environment. Because what would that make me if I heard her back? I know different. She doesn't. I'm fully aware and violence with, fighting violence with violence only makes it worse. And it would have just continued the cycle. And I don't, that moment of no, that is not who I am. And this is not what this situation needs. And then the guards came in, took her away, shook me away. And all I could think about was, I'm gonna lose

• 18:00Speaker 01

  my progression out of here because there's been an altercation. Um, they then investigated it because I'd been hit in the head. You get locked in the clinic all day. Um, and the fear that my own actions created that throughout that day, being locked in the clinic, being checked on by the nurses, her being out locked in cells. Um, she took full responsibility. I, they wanted to know if I wanted to police charge her. I said, absolutely not.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Right? Um, she needs mental health care and all that kind of stuff, not further punishment. And um, so from that, because I didn't whack her, I had no offence, because they take photos, right? And no offence, it wounds on my hands, so I didn't get charged. And I didn't ruin my progression through prison by thinking that that was the only way to stay strong. And my fears that I had around, people are gonna think I'm weak. They're gonna prey on me now. All those things. I just shushed and went, that's not the case. And whatever comes from here, I can deal with and I'll be fine.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Um, it actually turned out really different. She got out of cells, wanted to apologize to me. I wouldn't talk to her. And then she went around telling everybody she's gonna bash me again. So I called one of the girls over and I said, look, your auntie, right? Can we sort this out? I'll help you out if you help me out with this situation. She came back half an hour later and she goes, she just wants to say, apologize to you in front of everyone just before muster. I'm like, absolutely. Let's do it.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Let's put an end to this, because I didn't wanna live for fifteen months going,

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Looking at your shoulder.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Where's she gonna jump out of a bush and punch me? So she comes over and she goes, I'm so sorry. You're such a beautiful human being and I, I'm sorry for what I did. And the whole yard was quite full.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  And everybody was watching and I let her hug me and I said, thank you for apologizing, but what you did was not okay, but I accept the apology. And the ripple effect in.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  I didn't know, I was just showing up for myself, but the ripple effect of how it then went through the whole minimum security was women would come up to me and go, oh, we're so sorry, this has happened to you. Um. Some of them would ask me and say, why didn't you fight back? And I said, because we can't fight violence with violence. Right? We're just, we're all a victim of it in some way, shape or form. Cause I know they say that eighty percent of women in prison have experienced some sort of violence, whether it's sexual abuse or whatever it is. I'd say it's a hundred percent. There is not a woman in there that has not had some kind of abuse or experience with it, or, you know, at some point in time.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  So if we're then doing that to each other, what does that make us? And if I'm well enough to not fight it like that, and then I become a target by others, which didn't happen, cause that's kind of what I was expecting. And some of the young ones were like, I should have spelt it, you know, something, whatever, whatnot. But that in itself for me then changed everything within me. Cause I knew in the past I would have become that environment.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Wow, that's like that, that story, interesting, interesting insight. And I think, yeah, you said about becoming part of your environment and that's how you lived your life and probably the way that you were brought up to live, live your life. Um. It's a watershed moment there because yeah, quite obviously you could have turned it on and it could have just escalated and escalated. Then all of a sudden you're going to be the hard ass out in the yard and ready to fight anyone. But you handled it with emotional intelligence. Um. And I, I, I like the fact that you identified it was a potential, or it was a turning point in that if you punched on with her and dealt out some summary justice, you are then becoming the environment that you're living in.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not that person anymore. And I don't need to. And it was so, that was unsafe. All of that was unsafe, everything, every step that came from that. And then what came from it, that, that beautiful moment, because that place isn't nice and nobody feels safe in prison. No one does really.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  Even, even the ones strutting around, like they own the place, that's because they're, they're.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  They're pretending. That's, that's that rooster effect that we have. Like, you know, if I strut around, people are going to peck people, they'll leave me alone. Right? And the ones in groups. And what then happened for me was that I had this space that I could just sit and I could listen to people's stories, um, not ask too many questions. It's not the place to ask questions, but when they did, when they were open to it, I'd ask questions. Where do you come from? You know, what's your backstory? Where are your kids? That kind of thing. And the stories that I heard all had the same kind of thread through them. I've lost my kids. They're telling me that when I get out to get my kids back, I need to find somewhere to live. I need to get a job. I need to do all these things. But

• 23:06Speaker 01

  no one helps me, right? I'm released with the clothes on my back.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  That probably don't fit me anymore. Cause women are a little bit different than men. Men go into prison and start training and get fit and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, women put on weight usually. They comfort eat and whatever it is that they do. You know, there's, there is no, let's look at the stats for a minute around women that come into prison. I think, um, about three thirds of them are homeless when they enter prison.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Half of women released from prison are homeless.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  They have nowhere to go, right? They're going to go and live on someone's couch or they're, if they're lucky, they've got a parent that will take them in. Um. And usually it's back into the environment that they came out of.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  And that, if they, if they go back in there, it's almost inevitable. And we talked the other day about recidivism and the high rate of it.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  That's what we want to try to avoid, but it seems to me it was an eye opener for you. It, well, and a time of self-reflection, I, I would suggest when you're in prison, looking at it. Okay, why have I let my life go this way? Or why have I gone this way? When I look at all these other people that are in a worse position than.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that privilege of having, I had all the choices in the world, right, Harry? Um. I've and it made me feel shameful around having that access and always just believing that everybody did.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Because I just didn't know any different. And I think that's with a lot of people that have opinions around people who go to prison is because that they've never actually thought about who might be in there and why that they might be in there. And then it's easier to just go, oh, those bad people, they belong in there, right? And then when they get out, we don't want to give them a chance because they're bad people.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  And when, when we talk women's prison too, and you, you've referenced a hundred percent that have been subject to, to violence, it would be up.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Look, it's, it's, the, the, um, the research is eighty percent of women, yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, even if it's sitting, sitting at that.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Then we're punishing them. They're, they're being victims and they're thrown into the justice system and then they're being punished and put in the prison. And there, there's different issues with women in prison as compared to men. Quite often the, the, the punishment where they're losing their children. So then you've got children that haven't got the mother, which yeah, is important in their life. We have got to get it better, haven't we? Like if, if, if, do we need to protect society from the people that are in, in prison there? You would have seen, seen a lot of people in there that thought, well, maybe we could do it better.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Most of, like ninety percent of the women in prison, um, are victims of some kind of abuse. Right? So if we, and I'd say it's about a hundred percent, but I'd say the disadvantage is really high, right? So, um, if we continue to punish women for either fighting back or trying to do better. And every time that they are arrested.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Most of them don't get bail, not, not like me, because they don't have anywhere to go.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  And, and there is that privilege that kicked in straight away for you. You had, had good, law-abiding people out there that the courts would be comfortable sending you to. Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  But like, you know, there's a, a small percent of people in prison that we do need protection from, right?

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  But that's in men and women's prison. And that's a small percent that probably really are dangerous.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  I, I, I think you've probably got rough figures and this is thirty percent of prisoners in there, they're career criminals, like they, they see prisoners and occupational, yeah, risk that they take. They'll do the crime, they'll get out, okay, we're going to plan the robbery better next time. They're not the ones we're going to change. Then you've probably got sixty percent that have made mistakes or their circumstances in life have led them down, down the wrong path. They're the ones that we can really help. Now, if we're doing my calculations, that's thirty percent, yeah, career criminals, they, they, they're going to come back in there. Sixty percent that we might be able to help. And then that last ten percent, there's, there's people that I know in, in prison, people I've put in prison, I never want to see them out.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  And I, I'm a big believer and advocate in prison reform and that the benefits of having people come, come out, better people. Even the prisoners in jail will agree that that lunatic should never be let out. And, and yeah, we just, we put them over there. They're a different problem, but they're not the problem we're looking at.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  They're not the problem that we're looking at. And women, you know, despite what people think, and I know that it's very popular to believe that, oh my God, she's been to prison, she must have done something really, really bad. Right? It's that patriarchy that the woman belongs and she's the, the carer and she belongs in the home and she's good. All these beliefs that we're

• 28:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  taught, right? Through society, through all of that kind of stuff. And then the media doesn't help either, right? In how we portray the women that have committed those horrendous crimes or killed their husbands or, you know, or their children or whatever it is. They're the ones that we see. They are that small percentage. Okay? That is not the majority of the women in prison. And they're not the ones coming out who we're trying to find employment for or help them get their kids back. They're in there for a really long time. They may one day get out and want to do all those things, but they've actually got quite a bit of support when they do. It's the women that are stuck in.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  The cycle of abuse within their homes or whatever it is. And they become perpetrators by trying to defend themselves in the mail and then rings the police on them, takes them, gets them thrown out, takes their kids off them, then the kids get abused, they try and get their kids back. They break their AVOs, it's these things, it's this perpetual cycle of violence and prison. And every time that they get thrown in there, they actually haven't even been found guilty of anything. So we've got more women on remand, which means unsentenced than we have women sentenced.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  There's an interesting statistic there and I haven't got it, but the amount of women on remand. So these, for people that don't fully understand the, the justice system on remand. You're in custody, you've had bail refused, but you haven't been convicted of a crime. So on remand. The amount of women that are on remand that by the time their matter goes to court, get released and don't serve a custodial sentence. Uh, I, someone uh, that we're talking to the other day had a, had a figure on it and I was shocked.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  And there's a figure on, if you go to our um, Success Works website, we've got our impact report. And there's figures around those things on our website and, and in the impact report.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Um, and there's other information if you're interested in educating yourself around uh, women in prison. And uh, the Keeping Women Out of Prison Coalition have a lot of information on, on those, those stats.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  But yeah, remand is where women lose everything, right? So, and these, they're literally, they get thrown into jail the moment they're arrested. Um, they haven't seen a magistrate, they don't even know sometimes what they're charged with. Their kids are running wild, their house is unlooked after, it gets robbed, all those things happen to them, they lose everything.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  And then they go before a judge after a month of being incarcerated for something that they probably were a victim of. And they get set loose.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  With nothing.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Nothing to go back to, have to go and find where their kids have gone. Um, that kind of stuff, that impact that we're creating. And why are we locking up anyone without a sentence?

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Right? What gives us the right to do that? People still have rights. Yes, I know that they've offended in some way, shape or form, but this, that's not justice. That's just, I think it's stupid.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, look, I, I'll push back a little bit on that. There's some people that, yeah, the, the crimes that they committed. And we haven't got them convicted, but society needs to be protected by them. So.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Talking about my women.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  So uh, on, on that aspect, but uh, when we talk about uh, people in, in prison, well, let's talk from a fiscal point of view. Like how much it costs, the figures, a hundred and fifty thousand, up to a hundred and eighty thousand.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's around a hundred and eighty thousand for one woman for a year.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  In, in custody. Now, look at what we could do with that, that money. Um, if they weren't in custody and, and set up. Scandinavia have a prison system that is more of a village, given, uh, give the people their life skills, respect and all that. I've spoken many a time on, on this podcast, talking about Macquarie Correctional Centre.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Um, where they're trying something a little bit different and giving, uh, creating an environment that's more conducive to the people in that environment, as in the inmates, being taught social skills, education, just how to get on with, with people. Absolutely. In a community environment. I think that's better. And you and I are both in agreement that if people come out better than when they went into prison, we're all winners.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And it will reduce crime and it will keep families together. And it will allow us to feel safer because these people are getting the support and help they need to create that change. And I know that a lot of the argument is, oh, but not everybody's gonna do that. We know that, right? And that's why prisons don't need to exist.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Like, I needed to go to prison, I broke the law. So that's where you go, you get your freedom taken from you. But when you come out the other side, once you've served your time, that's your punishment. Why are we continuing to punish people over and over again for something that they've already paid their dues to society for? And this is where employment is really difficult space to navigate because we became so risk averse. I think it was in about two thousand where um, big um, companies from America decided to bring in risk management processes in H R. And that included doing national police checks.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Right, so that was, I, I wasn't aware of that.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  It was in the nineties, no one ever asked you. I remember going to an interview for a job and someone saying, is there anything in your past we need to know about?

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  That was the conversation. That's what the conversation should still be.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Because that gives people an opportunity to go, yes, there's X, Y, Z, right? And we hope that they're honest and upfront and we own our staff. That's what we're, we're going from that aspect. But the people coming out of prison, it's not just on employers to change the way that they hire. We also need to give education to the people coming out of prison. And that's what we do at Success Works.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Okay, well, let's get you out of prison so we can get you into Success Works. So I'm gonna open the prison gate and we're gonna uh, let, let you out. You've done your time and I think you got the last six months of your sentence, you were allowed to um, home detention.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I did an ankle bracelet, home detention. Um, and was allowed a re, re-entry into society in a really good way. Like I am all for that program for those that are ready and that do the right thing, it can be fantastic. Because when they open those gates and you walk out, again, it's a little bit alienating. And it doesn't matter how long that you've done, it's, it's, it's just, you've come from this strange place. And you're going back into your world. So having that soft landing and that time to arrive. So for me, I had all of those things. Like I was just set up to, to win throughout this process.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I also had the ability to advocate for myself, to speak for myself, to make inquiries around what was happening, to know when not to speak up, um, to all of those things. If you don't have that ability, that process, yes, they assist you with housing and application forms and all that kind of stuff. But a lot of women are not well enough to engage in that help. So they don't speak up and they don't say that I'm gonna have nowhere to go. They make up an address.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Well, well enough or educated enough or articulate enough.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, all of those things. So.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Whole, whole thing.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Our system only works for those that can show up in that way, right?

• 35:55Speaker 00

  So you've, you've identified all the, the benefits or all the advantages you had.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  I had all the advantages.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  The time. And then uh, how did you uh, connect with uh, Success Works? How, how?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  So when you um, exit prison, they give you a piece of paper with services that support women that are coming out of prison, all sorts of different supports. And whilst I was on home detention, I called most of those services, asked them what they did and engaged with them in some way, shape or form, asked them if they were hiring. I spoke a bit about my own experience and Success Works asked me to come and do their program. I said, sure, I'll come and do your program because when you're wearing an ankle bracelet, you need to have activities that you're doing to be able to leave the house. And it was really important to get back out there. So I did, I went and did their program. And kind of after the workshop said, look, I really don't need the support that you're offering. I can do all of that stuff. Like the resume writing, um, cover letters, um, job search, all of those things.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  But I really wanna step into this space. This is what I've experienced and this is the space that I'd love to work in. Um, so I didn't hear from them for a while and then I got an email and a phone call from one of my colleagues who I now work with. And she goes, oh, we're about to hire and we'd really encourage you to apply. There were two roles, I applied for them both.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Um, and I went to my interview for the actual job with my ankle bracelet on. And asked them, I said, oh, do you wanna know anything about my offending? And they went, not interested. But it was part of the requirements for the role to have experience with the criminal justice system or the criminal legal system, whatever you wanna call it. And I then, my ankle bracelet came off on the tenth of.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  July twenty twenty four and on the fifteenth of July twenty twenty four, I started my role.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  At Success Works Partners um as the Employment and Training Programme Coordinator.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  How did it feel, first of all, how did it feel with the ankle bracelet off?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Um. It was pretty cool. I didn't mind wearing it. I was, I I wasn't, the the privilege.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Was great, right? And I really um embraced it because I didn't think, I thought I was gonna be in prison for fifteen months.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Right? So that was, that freedom, I didn't care. And I had really great pro um uh officers that ran my program. They were really um open, like, you know, anything to do with health and fitness. So I'd go beach walking every day, swim in the ocean. Um and really got to do those things that kept me well.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  They were comfortable with you doing that, yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  As long as they know where, which, so you'd have to show where you were going and then, you know, so that doesn't go off because you're out of the area that you're meant to be in and the time that you're going. So you have to report each week. So you've got to be really organised. So it won't work for somebody that's still in addiction and is running around and they're released with an ankle bracelet. They're just gonna end up back in jail, right? And it's a waste of the program, I feel. So I think that assessment needs to be done properly, that it will benefit those that are ready to do the right thing.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  With Success Works, oh, just before before we get into that, the stupid question, but ankle bracelets, because you make jewellery, do you think they could design them in a better way?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Look, I thought about bejewelling my, like, sticking Domonti's and stuff on it, and then I just went, no, just leave it alone, don't tamper with it. If that's the price of the freedom that I had for those six months too.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  And and look on that, and joking about it, but I I think that we've got to look at those options too, because we've got the technology now that you you virtually, you could FaceTime everywhere you go.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, these are the type of things that we've got to look at with the technology. How can we improve um, yeah, corrective services or the judicial system?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  As as long as we we've got to take that mentality away, that that rage of we need these criminals punished because of that. And you identify the point, I hadn't thought about that, when you were saying with the media, we highlight the really bad ones. You don't, there's no front page or lead story about someone that's gone in for a minor offence and in for six months' prison. You never hear about that.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Lost everything and, you know, was trying to defend themselves so that they would survive from their partner or whatever the situation was, right? We don't hear those stories.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  So every time we hear a story about people going into jail, it's usually a horrific crime that uh.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Or it's sensationalised. Like, I look at my media, I just I just have to laugh, write the names.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  I I was gonna, I I was looking through some of the articles because I was gonna, I I should have brought it out now that you've raised it, but I thought, no, I won't embarrass you.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No, I don't care. I put them on my, they're on my Instagram.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  I took photos of the of the main pages. I, you either take accountability of it all.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  And own the cringe as well, because it's part of it.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right? And I don't believe that people that have been convicted of a crime should not have any privacy rights.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I don't believe that what we do with that is okay.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  And I believe that the media should speak to the actual person rather than write from the facts in court and sensationalise it, right? I think there should be a little bit more accountability around how those reports are written.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  It's not black and white. It's, you you've got to look at it from all different perspectives.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  You do, and life's not black and white, and people definitely are not, right? And if you're trying to live life, doing black and white and popping everybody in these two boxes, it's a really painful place to be.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  So if we get back to Success Works, I had a look and uh some strategies that says Success Works um employment support, talk us through that.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so basically, um at Success Works, we support women. It is just for women only, our program uh who have a criminal history. So it doesn't mean you have to have gone to prison. It's anybody that has a record. And then that record is impacting their, how they're able to gain employment.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Um. My role firstly, I'll go into, I support the women through a work readiness program um with my colleagues as well, but I do the part about disclosure and how to show up, when to disclose, when not to, how you can approach an employer, if there is a police check required and you feel you'd like to disclose. So we teach them how to not trauma dump. Right? Because the worst thing that could happen is, so you want to tell your story, but suddenly you just blurt everything out from unnecessary things that don't belong in a professional um settings. So we really work on that.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Would that be something like, I'm declaring to the potential employer that I've got a criminal history?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  And instead of saying, look, two years ago or six months ago, I got in trouble. It was a fraud-related offence and I I did time. I regret what I did and that, instead of going, well, I had this and I I I can imagine them spilling out way too too much. You should just keep a sanitized version of it and explain yourself that way.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  And we want people to, if you want to show that you've created change.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  You need to own your shit.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Excuse my language, but you do, you need to own it. And we don't mean you need to own what happened to you.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Because some records have to do, they're they're the victim, something horrible happened to them. We're not asking you to own the incident or the occurrence. You need to own that you now have a criminal history and that that is part of your journey and you need to allow people to have their judgments around it.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Right? And their own stories that they make up. But you need to be able to own it and present yourself to an employer, let's say.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Without making excuses and to show who you are today.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I because I could imagine.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  It's about accountability.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, a a potential in employer of, if you're sitting there going, I was charged, but the cops loaded me up. I didn't and and I'd be sitting there thinking, well, you haven't really taken, no, taken responsibility. So.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  You've just nailed it. So that's kind of what we work with, the women with. Um. We have women that do not want to. There's so much trauma attached to their record. They don't want to do disclosure and turnaround talks, we call them turnaround talks. And that's okay too, but it obviously then minimises the pool of opportunity.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  I, in my role, also work with employers, so I go out and I advocate. I connect with different businesses and employers and and anyone within um New South Wales, because we support women all over New South Wales. Um, and sit down and ask them how they hire, what their practices are, what is their risk management?

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Um, and have an honest conversation around it and see how we can maybe like make that more inclusive.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Are you getting people buying into that? Because I could see uh the the organisations thinking, there there could be a lot. Not only are we doing something good for society, because that that that's a tick tick the box. But if you've got people that are grateful for a job, they they're gonna work very hard for you and and they want to prove themselves. There could be a lot of benefits from hiring.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely, there's benefits and from, we look for meaningful employment for our women. Because employment itself is great, but just a job might be okay for a while. It's about having that purpose.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Right? Because it's about creating, it's part of that change journey.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  A person that finds meaningful employment and is given a chance when they have had that many rejections over and over again or haven't even been seen because the police check is required, it's a tick box or it's a dropdown menu or it's something that does not, it's so disheartening.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Right? So you've put in all the work, you've done your counselling, you've finished parole, you've done all these things. And now you just want to get a job.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Because you got your kids back, you want to buy them Christmas presents and be able to provide for your family because you're a single mum. And you just keep getting told, no, you don't get a look in at all because of these pre-screening selection processes. That woman who has then given her a chance because she stood up and went, I have a record and I'd like to do my turnaround talk or show you my turnaround packet

• 46:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  of the things that I've achieved and who I am today. And then that employer gives her a job. She will show up. She will lift employee performance.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And will bring facets to your team that you didn't even know were there.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  And that is what we've experienced. So in, to take it back to kind of recidivism rate. Uh, New South Wales has a recidivism rate of around fifty percent. Success Works has a recidivism rate of about eleven percent.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  Once they've got that employment pointed in the right direction.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  And also the growth and the the exposure to a different environment, a safe environment, learning new skills, the support that we continue to give them. So we don't just do the work readiness, um match them with an employer if we have that employment or help them find their own employment.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Stay in contact with them.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yes, we do. So they have our support.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  We all have low moments and if you you've gone down a bad path, sometimes in that low moment, stuff it. I'm going back to what I I know best.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  And we also have a volunteer mentor program. So women from all walks of life and from different industries um volunteer their time to mentor our women. And they are given training and then it's a six months mentorship. Where they support our women in their, on their employment search journey with um resume writing, uh interview skills, all that kind of that stuff. And it's also a connection to the community that these women may not have had before.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  That would be rewarding both ways, wouldn't it? I I would imagine people get a lot, a lot from helping helping someone like that.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  Um, the education component, do you encourage people?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely, we do.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  And I often, I I cringe when we uh, you know, have the state elections and you get tougher law and order, we're gonna get more police and we're gonna make tougher laws, put the money into education.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Because I I think education, it not only it it helps employment, but I think it it gives people uh, they start to respect themselves. They their dignity is restored.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  And, you know, for for us, our women, we solely like kind of focus on employment. It's our main, it's what we do. But our women come with so many different layers of of different needs and wants and readiness factors as well. And we find, we find that, you know, if they are not really stable in a home or don't have somewhere consistent to sleep, it's really hard to show up for an interview on time or those kinds of things.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  And when fifty percent or, yeah, half of the women that are released are released into homelessness.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  How do we support them with that? So we refer out to other services.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  But, you know, we've got a crisis here around housing, which is massive. And if we can help the women find somewhere safe to live.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  And then provide employment pathways that are inclusive, where people are not judged for their past, but on what they're doing now.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Um, if they go and do a TAFE course and get the qualification, let's open the door for them. Because my question is always, what risk are we trying to manage? That doesn't also come with someone that doesn't have a record? And if somebody can answer that for me, because who I'm hiring without a criminal history, I just don't get that piece of paper that tells me what they once did, right? Or may have done, or where they've been.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  I don't know where they've been. They might come into my business and rob me. Whereas the person that you're giving a chance is not going to commit a crime in your business, right?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  And.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Whereas the person that you don't know and doesn't have a record.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Could more than likely do that to you and you won't even know.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  A person that's come in with a record, they know eyes are going to be on them. And that, that, that, um, you call it turnaround package.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  Is that, is, is that a formal terminology or is that just a?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  It's, um, so it's something that, um, we've adopted. We've just created a guide on how to recruit women with a record. And we use the terminology in there. I found it on an American website that does that. I love the terminology around it. So turnaround talk and a turnaround package.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  And a turnaround package is having like all your educational pieces in there. Your psychologist, um, evaluation, a reference from somebody saying, um, I know that you said you give, you made a reference. Um, having that reference in there from somebody that, you know, they're going to go, oh yeah, that's great, right? And being able to present that with your resume or at the interview.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Or at the point in time where, before they do the police check.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  And it gives them something tangible walking in and they can actually see it by just getting that, uh, that put together. Funding for, for running this, where, where's that coming from?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  So we're a non-for-profit.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Um, we have, uh, government grants and, um, also philanthropic funding. But, you know, we're a small niche organisation and it's tough for us to get funding. And we fall through the cracks. And if you look at, I'm going to take it back to the hundred and eighty thousand a year for one woman in prison.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Right? It takes eleven thousand dollars to put a woman through our program, to engage a woman in our program.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Well, then if you fall back on those statistics, fifty percent recidivism without going through your program and it drops down to eleven percent. I, I'm not an accountant, but I can see, uh, this is, uh, yeah.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  It's a no brainer. So, and I know that a lot of frontline organisations like us, we really struggle because we're small and we're not everybody's cup of tea.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Right? We fall through those cracks with funding and it's not for lack of trying. We have, um, part of our team that do, uh, apply for grants on a regular basis. We're always looking for funding. And what I love probably the most about SuccessWorks, in the two years that I've been here, we have grown as an organisation. And we not only go, okay, employers, we want you to open your doors, hire women, be more inclusive. We'll support you through that process. We're the experts in that space.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  But we've created a social enterprise, uh, test and tagging service. So it's an electrical compliance service.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  And we hire the women ourselves. So we're creating.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  So you, you're getting them qualified so they can go around and test the leads and electrical equipment in offices?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  And for women that have no previous work experience, have never been in a workplace.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  That mainstream employment space is scary.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  It's, it eats them up, chews them out, uh, chews them up, spits them out.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  And so giving them this inclusive space where we support them, um, and teach them as well some work readiness skills as well, workplace etiquette, all those things that we take for granted, who have had, I've had lots of jobs in my time.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  I've worked in lots of different countries. So I know what belongs.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  And present, yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  They don't, they've never been taught this and it can be really alienating, especially if you're not a sixteen year old or a seventeen year old. You're a mum, a middle-aged woman, and you don't know how to show up in a workplace. That can bring shame, embarrassment, all those things. So what we've created is a space where these women can learn and earn money.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  It, it sounds like you're adopting a holistic approach to, to it.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  We do.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  It's not, uh, just point them in, in a direction.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  I like the fact that you're advocating with other organisations to, you know, look at the potential there as a, a work market that might be beneficial to, uh, to the organisation. That's, that's an important thing. Very early and it, it changed my, my thinking when I started the podcast. So we're going back about five or six years ago, I had, uh, Steve Fennick from Fruit to Work.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  Um, down in, uh, down in Vict- Victoria. And he pointed out a couple of things to me like, uh, that I hadn't even appreciated. But just, they were hiring people for six months after they got out of prison.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  So they could help prepare to go get a job. And simple things like you just said, how, how they present for the interview. He was saying that, yeah, have a shower, tidy yourself up, wear a good set, uh, set of clothes. Little things like that, that we take for granted. But if you've been in custody or, you know, disadvantaged for a, a lot of different reasons, these are the little things that you mightn't consider. But I, I like the idea. I, I, I think it's a great idea.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  You know, the fact that for me, with my employment journey, finding purpose in prison on, I want to work within this space. There has to be more done for women that have been incarcerated. What that looks like, I had no idea.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  But that's what drove me when I came out and having that diploma in counselling just really kind of opened up the opportunities for me. So it was, it was perfect timing around that. And my extensive work history obviously helps with all the different things that I've done. And I can, you know, the different industries and I don't have to learn from scratch. Cause I'm not from a recruitment background and we're not a recruitment agency. We support women and employers to change the way that they're hired and that they hire.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Right? And we really, it, it's tough because people are time poor, people are risk averse. And we sometimes have, uh, you know, a hiring manager that just goes, yeah, absolutely. I want to go, get on board with this. And then the top goes, no.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Oh, we're not going to take that risk.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  No, we can't. And, and it's, you don't even get the conversation with them.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  And that is probably the hardest bit of my role is, am I talking to the right person within that organisation? And how then also do they put it into practice?

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Right? Because yes, we're giving you a skilled employee.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Who's going to show up, do the job, but they do come with other multifaceted side of things. And probably need a little bit of extra support, which will give you them and you as the employer. But because we're time poor, again, those things sometimes don't happen, right?

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  So it's, it's about finding, this is what I've learned over the last two years. It's about finding employers that really want to create that inclusion. That, that know that it takes more than just a conversation with us.

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  But that they get their whole entire team on board. And our redefining recruitment guide that we've just launched, um, has a training package as well with it.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Uh, a training day and it's for HR executives, hiring managers, just employers who run their own business, to have a think about where they sit too. Because something that I've realised as well, if we don't address our own biases around how we feel about the people that go to prison or have a record, we can't be inclusive around it. And we need to sit down and go, why do I feel that way? Where does that bias come from? Is it realistic? Is it based on my own experiences? And we're not telling you that anything is right or wrong, but let's look into it. And then I would prefer for a hiring manager or an exec to go, I don't want to do this.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Because it doesn't sit with, right with me.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Then someone just not responding back. You know, that kind of.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  Say you're encouraging them to at least ha- have a look at it and hear, hear us out.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  And, uh, what, what can be lost from it?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  And we're not peddling you problems. We're giving you employees that will show up and they will apply for the role and, and go through the process. We're just asking to have, let's look at the systems that we've created.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  That exclude, and not just people with a record, but people with a disability, people with a mental illness, all those things.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you see a lot of money spent on advertising hiring people with disabilities. Like you, you see that, which is a great initiative as well. I, uh, look, I, I'm impressed by what you're doing. I, I, I really agree with it. I, you know, if you've got a, the way we fight crime just doesn't seem right to me. And that's, sounds like it must be a pretty stupid person because I worked in the cops for thirty years, but I, I think we can, can do better and,

• 59:21Speaker 01

  I really do.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, if we, we get, try to get smart on crime instead of tough on crime. And recidivism, we don't want people going back to jail. If jail, jail worked for you, you went to jail and you've come out different person.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  But not because of what I did in there.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Not, not because of what you did.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Or what they offered me in there, right? And that's the thing. There is time in there for both men and women to be engaged in not just prison run programs, but externally run programs, education being taken in there and given to them while they're in that space. So that when they then exit, there's also then a pathway and an employer that is open to hiring them. So there needs to be a whole flow through. And for some reason, it seems like everybody that goes into the prisons to deliver programs is then at some point locked out again and it doesn't continue or they don't, can't come in or,

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  you know, there's all these, these barriers. It's, I know it's not simple, but if we can start utilizing that time. And I think you guys with the men's program were saying, so the guys that had, were perpetrators of domestic violence, they go into prison and there's all these other blokes that do the same. And they sit around for ten months together and tell each other how great that they are and that they've, they've done nothing wrong. And they come out and they do the same thing again.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  I think that's a recipe for disaster. If I'm sitting in a cell and I'm inside because I breached an ABO because of my relationship and I'm sitting in the cell with someone else that's done that, we spend ten months complaining and getting angry and angry. And then they let, let us out. So.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  It's the same with women that have, have committed a crime and, or they're in there for drugs or they're, you know, whatever that they're engaging in. And then they're in there with all those other women that are doing exactly the same thing. And then they, and what happens is they all congregate together in their little groups.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  If you don't have the wellness within yourself and the ability to go, that's not what I want anymore. You're not gonna, it doesn't work like that. We're not giving these women that want different.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Or men.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Anything else. And like you said, out at Macquarie, they did that well. They were doing that. There are some prisons that do it really well, but we need to do it throughout all of them.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  And look at it from all different ways of dealing with it. It's not the, the one thing is going to fix everything. It's, yeah, what you're, what you're doing post, uh, post-prison with the, the people that have been released with employment and everything else. That needs to start, well, you've identified start before you even go into prison.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  Continue through prison and then outside, outside the prison. And, and I know when I was doing that Breaking Badness series with Macquarie Correctional Centre, one of the concerns were, okay, if they get it right in prison, but then when they get let out, there, we, we haven't got the pathway set up for them to succeed out, outside the prison. So.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  So they go back to what they know. And, and if you don't have, there's these points in the journey of change. Cause imagine, so I lived my life for thirty years.

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  In that space, right? Out of making choices from that trauma or whatever it was, to unlearn that thirty years of acting.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Right? This stuff takes time.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  You don't always get it right the first time. So if we, every time that someone has a, I'm going to call it a slip, lock them back up, we're putting them right back to all the way and probably taking, we're stripping a little bit of change off them every single time that we do that.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Right? If they are then told, okay, we see that you've done all of this, right? Here, we're giving you merit for all this work that you've done. We've seen you slip, but we're going to support you here. Cause we want you to become a member of society again, a community and be safe and well and all of kind of that. People are more likely to succeed.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Talking money, I never thought about tax when I was a cop because the tax was taken out before you got paid.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  Now, uh, working it like for myself as a company, I get paid, then you've got to give the money back to the government. I am starting the question where our money goes.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  I want to know where it goes, right? And if I look at those figures.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  They need to be accountable.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  And then cor- corrective services is an industry.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Right? It generates revenue. So we're paying tax to incarcerate these people. And that re- revenue that's generated is used as well. So what's wrong here? Right? There's something really wrong here in how we think that prison is a solution to anything.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  Privatization of prisons. What the hell's that about? What are we, you set up a business and we can make money out of keeping people in cages? Like that never washed with me. I, I look, I, I think, yeah, finishing up the points we're trying to get across. As an ex-cop, you're someone that's done, done time, uh, time in prison. We're saying we could do it better.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Yes, we could.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  We could do it better and let's think outside the square a little bit. Cause I, I do get frustrated with these conversations in that it seems, it does seem simple. There, there are solutions here, but we just keep going down. And if we keep doing the same thing, the same way, we're going to get the same result. So let's flip it.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And just as a final kind of thought from me to anybody that really, you know, just goes, oh, them people to prisoners. Imagine you're twenty years old, have a couple of drinks, you get in the car and you run someone over.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Right? You're twenty. It's a mistake. It's the worst time of your life. You get locked up, you're taken out of society. And on your police check, when you get out fifteen years later and the world has completely changed, it says murderer.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Murder. So the context around what is on that police check is what is important. It is so important that we understand the human being and what led them to that. And there's some really good things that, you know, we can kind of judge change on. It's somebody that hasn't done any work, doesn't have a turnaround talk or a turnaround packet. Cause all they can do is talk about the offenses. They have nothing else to show. And somebody that doesn't, that has repeatedly offended, right? Yes, they have, but if they've got time up and in that time, they can show that they've done so many different things. Isn't that what counts?

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Right? Isn't that what we should be judging people on? Because when they come to get a job, and I'm taking it back to employment. We're judging them on who they're going to show up at, work as, right? What skills they bring to the table, um, their resume, their experience, um, their willingness to be open and, and communicate and all those kinds of things. That's what we need to. That moment in time, I wouldn't want to be judged on that. How would you feel to be judged as a murderer for the rest of your life by one mistake that you made? Wouldn't you want people to give you a second chance and a fair go?

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  Makes sense.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  Convince me. I'm, I'm sold.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you already were.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  I'd never considered that until I got a criminal record. Now, when I'm filling out forms, I'll go, oh, you know, like it, it is. And I think, I know when I've had to tick the box, I want to explain, but hold it, let's, um, but you don't have that opportunity. You're just marked, have you been convicted of it?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  And that's what we're trying to teach, um, the general employment community is police don't have that pre-screening.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Allow people to showcase who they are today. And the ones that don't want you, they won't apply anyway. So that pre-screening is really you are not allowing someone access to something that they probably really need.

• 1:07:27Speaker 00

  You seem very, uh, very content, no regrets. And, uh, this is, this is life's, life's journey.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  It is. And to being able to speak and use my story and, and the twists and turns and the experiences that I have had to, to create change in the world, that, how privileged am I? That's amazing.

• 1:07:48Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a very nice, nice way to finish.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  All the best for the future and, uh, keep, keep up the work because it, uh, it makes society a better, better place. So good on you.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Thank you. My pleasure.