Undercover cop with a death wish: Todd Maguire Pt.1

At just 25 years of age, Queensland police officer Todd Maguire woke up to discover the love of his life had taken her own life. Shattered and searching for a way to escape the pain, Todd threw himself into the dangerous world of undercover policing, and became someone else entirely. Enter Donny: reckless, fearless, and fully immersed in a criminal underworld of drugs, violence, and volatility, where one wrong word or one wrong look could get you killed. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary Jubelin sits down with Todd to unpack a story of profound loss, reinvention, and survival. Todd opens up about the moment he found his partner's body, the brutal reality of life undercover, and how deeply he lost himself in his alter ego. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  At just 25 years of age, Queensland Police Officer Todd Maguire got out of bed to find the love of his life had taken her own life. To outrun his grief, Todd threw himself into the world of undercover policing and became Donny. Donny was reckless, dangerous, and immersed in the world of drugs and violence, where one wrong word or one wrong look could get you killed. Take a listen.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  Todd Maguire, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Thank you, Gary. Thank you for having me.

• 1:16Speaker 00

  I'm glad I've got you on I Catch Killers, but having read your book, The Donny, The Undercover Cop With A Death Wish, I'm surprised you're still alive.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Well, that's what my son said to me as well.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's not you lucky too.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah, if you died, he's not here. You went to some dark places. There were some dark, dark times in your life and we'll, we'll talk about it. But to turn it around is a big thing too, because honestly, I was reading the book and I'm thinking, yeah, sort of a third of the way through, I'm going to have to speak to some blokes that know you to see how you're going. Because I thought you might be a clusterfuck by, by the end of it. But you spent a long time in the police after, after your time in undercover. So you managed to turn yourself around.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think I did. A lot of people may disagree with that. It's certainly been a bumpy ride along the way. But I've always maintained to keep going forward.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Well, you, you had a personal tragedy in your life and that's, to put it into context, by the time you went into UC work, you almost had the attitude, you didn't give a stuff. Like as in, well, if something happens to me, it'll take the pain away.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Which is pretty scary, but I would imagine it's a superpower also in the work that you're doing as an undercover.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  And I think that's where, you know, I wasn't going in there to, you know, get all the awards and the prizes and, you know, get some fellow that they hadn't gotten years and, you know, well done, Donny, well done, Donny. It's like, that's not what I'm here for. I don't care. I just wanted to find a place where I could really escape.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  And when you talk Donny, that's your undercover name or one of your undercover names?

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, they gave me, yeah, first one.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  And my reading of it in the, in the book is that you were using Donny to escape from Todd.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. Donny became the alter ego.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Todd's life had gone to shit and there was a lot of pain there and just jump into Donny and all the pain, pain goes and you focus on that.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. And, you know, I focused on that a lot at the time, thinking, this is what I need. I need to escape. I'm not remembering what's happening. Pushing it down, pushing it down, pushing it down. You finished undercover work. Same thing, you get straight into detective work and as you know, bang, you just don't have a chance to think.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Let's talk a little bit about your early life and what, why did you join the cops? Where'd you grow up and what inspired you to join the cops? And I, I want you to tell the story about what was the island that you were working on? Because I think that was.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Oh, Dunk Island, yeah.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want you to tell that story too.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yes, I was pretty lucky, grew up in the north side of Brisbane, which back in those sort of days, you're only 10 or 15 kilometres from the centre. But it was fairly rural and I just spent all my, all my weekends on my pushy. Just going around, going around, you know, all the hills and, and stuff like that. And just playing sport, heaps of sport as well. Great family, as I said earlier. And, you know, I think, I went to a school in, on the north side of Brisbane, Padrae College, and that was really big at footy.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  And we had a really good time, still mates with blokes I went to school with. And I just had a really good culture there.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  And I think the way that that was sort of set up for me as well is being around, it's sort of like a bit of a cocoon really, like, because, you know, you want to do that as a parent. You want to put your kid into the best sort of supportive nature. But what I found out later, when there was adversity, I didn't know how to deal with it because I had not affected, I'd been worried about it. Hadn't had it happen to me.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Hadn't had that resilience built up in you at that stage because you had no setbacks.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  So, yeah, you, you grew up around there. Rugby league was a big, big thing for you and, and playing team sports.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I loved it.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Work-wise, did you have any ambitions? You were looking at, oh, you were looking at being a professional rugby league player, but I think you, you stuffed that up with a trip to Sydney.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I worked at it pretty quick.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  If you're embarrassed to tell the story, I'll tell it for you. You come down here trialling for an NRL team and you're a teenager. And you and your mate decided it would be a good idea to go to King's Cross for the night before the, for, before the trials. How did you perform at the trials?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Well, I thought I played well.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  But, but I thought I must have been running the wrong way or playing the ball in the wrong direction or something, mate. I wasn't good, but as I say, you know, I could have been, I could have had the best preparation in the world and it still wouldn't have made any difference mainly.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I would describe you as, you know, an average type fellow, a bit loose, not, not knowing what direction your life would go in. And then you came up with the idea that working on Dunk Island might be, might be the go. You were trying to sort of break away and find yourself. Tell us what happened there.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I had a couple of years in footy, so I thought it'd be a good time for me to go and branch out. There was always the lure of the islands and all that sort of stuff back in the 90s. And, you know, I'd been working in some nightclubs and pubs and restaurants in Brisbane. I went, no, we'll go out and do that. So, yeah, it was fun. It really was a lot of fun. It was good for a young fella and, yeah. It was, you know, like every work, it's time to move on. And, and the general manager asked me to move on and that was it.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Well, it's in the books, I'll say. There was a slight indiscretion and there's no, no judgment here. But you, you were with a lady that happened to be the girlfriend of the band that was on the island and as a result of that situation, the band quit and you got fired.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very understandable as well. All I can say is I laid myself bare in the book and I told everything, all the good things, the bad things, silly things.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Well, it's better to get it out there, I think, than it's not sitting on a secret. The type of life that you're living, you were a bit directionless, I think. And you were, you were enjoying the party and having the good times. That would have helped, I dare say, when you did go into undercover work.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  Being able to mix in that environment and be a bit loose. Because you need to be loose and be able to get on with people.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the confidence of, you know, holding a group of people, talking, being that certain person.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  When you're buying a bar and you're sort of, you know, controlling a bar, you've got the same thing.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. When did you discover you, you wanted to be a cop?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so after I'd sort of left Dunk Island, Port Douglas, I went up there for a bit and then moved back down to Sanctuary Cave, down the Galcoast.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  And, you know, I got to a middle management there and I thought, oh, here we go. But that took about 80, 90 hours a week.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  And I wanted to start playing footy again.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  So that was my only focus. I didn't care about work then. It was like footy, footy, footy. So I started playing footy on the Galcoast and got sort of made it back up to A grade and that was pretty good. And I, I was at the Parkwood Tavern one day with a mate who was in the cops. And he sort of said, you know, I was whinging about, you know, as you whinge about your work. Oh, mate, I started at three this morning, a group came in, we did this, did this. Didn't finish till like six and my eyes are hanging out now. I've got a big back at two in the morning and it was just non-stop. And I wasn't getting paid well at all, not hospitality. And, and he goes, why don't you join the cops? I went, no way, mate. Never thought of it in my life. No, don't like cops. I think I said that at the time. But he goes, you know, this bloke, you know me, you know.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  I went, oh, yeah, they're all fairly decent fellows. Yeah, it's only blokes like us. I went, that's all right. And we play footy, you know that? I went, really? I'm in. And then I, actually, he said to me so many times, go and do it, do it. And I said, okay. If I say yes, will you shut up? One of those ones?

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  And I do your deal. If I get in, I get in. If I don't get in, I'm not applying again. And I got in.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  And that, your, your life started to take a different direction from there. Where were your first, where were your first station at?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  It was on the Galcoast.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  And what, what years are we talking here?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  This was 97.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Okay, so that would have been some wild times.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah. It was exactly what I wanted.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  You enjoyed the work?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. My very first shift was a Friday night, starting at midnight in Surf's Paradise.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  How did you, how'd you find that?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Initially, I was worried because not like the halters you have there. It was an old leather one that you didn't even, the clip would hardly even stay in. It would always fall out. And I didn't, I wasn't used to wearing that. And it felt like, I kept on looking, it's gone, it's gone, I think it's gone. Especially, I reckon we got in about five or six fights that night.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And each one of them, I said, that's, that's gonna go, that's going, that's gone.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  It's, it's a strange thing, isn't it, strutting around with a gun strapped to the side of your leg.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Especially when, you know, you're not used to it.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  You're worried about so many other things and there's just people everywhere knocking into you. And then you're running around the floor, you know, fighting someone.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. You, you've met the lady that you, so for first couple of years, a young cop. I would imagine you're having a good time, young cop.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Living in the barracks.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  On the, on the Gold Coast and having a circle of friends that wanna party with you after, after working. You, you met a lady, Karen.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, yeah. I wasn't sort of really looking for anyone.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, yeah, I, um, I, yeah, I was, I was blown away when, when I saw her at first at the, at the casino one night. And I asked a mate of mine, what's, what's going on over here? He goes, ah, no, just broke up with a hubby about six months ago.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  I went, well, she looked pretty good to me. So I gave it a go, yeah, and it was a bit clumsy, you know? And then I had to work on her for about, I reckon, three months. So I thought I'd use the uniform and see how that works, and it did. So I went around to work every now and, and it just works, so.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Just a thought, the wanker just came into my head, but.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I was only like second or year, second year in the job, you know, and. And someone had said, you know, that'll work, and I thought, I'll give it a go.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  And it did, so.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Um, so you got in the relationship with her and she had a, a child from her, her marriage. And so you went from the reckless, uh, young fella, uh, living on the barracks to, uh, basically living with her and having fatherly duties. How did you find that?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I really struggled.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  I just didn't know how to do it.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  And, but also I had the back of my mind going, you know, you're twenty five, you know, come on.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Time to settle down.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Start growing up, mate.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  So I thought, yeah, I better do that, yeah. So I really put my head down and went, yeah, I do like this, I like this.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  You know, started sort of living that sort of life and, you know, dropping him to school, picking him up or kindergarten, all that sort of stuff. And it was all looking good.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  It, it gives you some, some purpose, doesn't it? Sense of responsibility and that you, you need to grow up.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  But basically.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You know, when I was, I was twenty five, she was thirty one.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Um, you know, she'd be married with a, with a kid and.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  To me, she was like a totally next generation.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  And how did I get her, you know?

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it will be painful, talk, talking about this. Uh, there's reference in your book of all the, all the good times that you had with her and how important Karen was in your, uh, your life and her, uh, her child. But when we talk the personal tragedy, are you comfortable talk, talking about what, what happened?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for, for years I never said anything.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  So I'm trying to catch up with it now.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Okay, uh, uh, you can tell the, tell the listeners, uh, what happened?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  It was New Year's Eve being two thousand.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So Y two K, when everyone remembers what the millennial bug was.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  The world was gonna end.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  We were supposed to end the next day, I think we've heard this before, haven't we? And, um, so, so that was a little bit, you know, people were talking about it, there was a little bit of buzz in the air. Um, and I remember, you know, that New Year's Eve, just listening to the, the, um, the holiday makers. Uh, I don't think I've heard noise like it since.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  I think people were really partying like it was the, yeah, the last night on earth. So me and a few other bloke coppers were, you know, boyfriend girlfriend with the other girl, boys and girls. And so the men and the women, we were going to work at ten, while the women were going out having a drink. We had to go to work, um, so we sort of had a dinner first and then we'd drop the girls over and then we'd go to work.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  So anyway, um, we're sitting around having, having dinner. And I remember the old Nokia sixty one tens or thirty one tens or whatever. If you didn't do the, you know, enter and star, you didn't lock it or something. So it, it sounded like I just did a bit of a pocket dial and I thought, oh, I better go and clear that and fix it. And I had six, six, six on it. And I just went, have a look at these people.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Devil's son.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, looks like the world is gonna be end. I just got a message, you know, just being a joker. And everyone laughed, it was good, yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  So anyway, the girls went out, you know, it was a, it was a busy night, you know, lots of drunks, lots of fights. You know, the night went pretty quick. Um, she was having a great night, she was keeping, keeping sort of me abreast of what was going on. I'd found out earlier, which I wasn't happy about, that she'd had a half an ecstasy pill.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  And I was pretty sure that she hadn't had one before, so I was a little bit worried. So I wanted to keep in, you know, I wanted to keep in contact with her and make sure she was fine.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  And she was great all the night through, no fights, no arguments, no nothing. Uh, picked her up at five thirty, she's still great. Um, one of her friends was left there, so I dropped, we dropped her home on my own and then went home. Back out to Mudjabah, which is almost like, you know, hinterland sort of across the other side of the Bruce Highway. Yeah, so, uh, we sort of sat back, had a bit of a coffee, cup of tea and, you know, we thought, better get to bed. Cause I had to work at four o'clock this afternoon, you know, cause it was a quick shift to back.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  You know, just sort of get back into it. So when, um, when that happened, I said, I can't, my eyes are hanging out, I really need to get some sleep. She's going to bed, everything's fine. But I woke up about an hour or two later and I heard the dawn, you know, she was at the door with someone. And it was her ex-husband bringing the young fella over. And she's come back in and, and she was a little bit annoyed with herself. And I said, what's wrong? And she said, um, I forgot to get the young fella today, I really did. I went, oh, yeah, she goes, oh, I feel so bad. I went, I know, that happens, don't, you know, she was crying then and she was, I've been a bad mum and all that sort of stuff. And I go, no, you're not, you're not a bad mum, you're, you're a good mum and you just don't, you're just tired.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  You're emotional, you're fatigued, let's go and have some sleep, we'll put him down, watch a movie, lock all the doors, he usually doesn't move. So did that. And as soon as I hit the bed, you know, pillow was out.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  And the next thing I knew was hearing, mummy, mummy, where are you, mummy, by the little fella. And he's sort of walking around our bed. And I sort of, I rolled over and I didn't, oh, she's not there. I went, oh, oh, I gotta get up, you know, when you're tired and your kids, kids sort of calling you. Not thinking anything at all. I said, okay, let's go and find mummy. I sort of picked him, picked him up. And he was about four and I was just sort of mucking around with him, is she in this room? No, and it was sort of, yeah, he's giggling, giggling, giggling. And, um, and I remember looking, you know, no, she's not in the kitchen.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Keys are still there, car's still there, she hasn't gone anywhere, like, oh, downstairs, that's where, she must be in the laundry. That was the only place where I'd looked yet. Laundry is also a, a place where we could rent out and had a bed and a bit of a, a quasi sort of granny flat type thing.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  So now, walking, you had to go outside, down the side steps and then back in under the house. Walking down with Clark, we're still a bit of a joke. And I opened the sliding door and saw her and, and there she was right in the middle of the room. She'd used a, um, uh, electrical cord around the rafters and, and, uh, yeah, she was gone. She was, um, you could, I could tell straight away, you know, she was looking straight at me.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Uh, not the face that I remembered her, like she really had changed a lot. My first thought was to get rid of the young fella, he doesn't need to see his mum like this. So it was probably the best footy pass I've ever done in my life. I wanted to get as far as I could from there. And, um, so I did that, closed the door and then that's when the shock hit me, I was like,

• 17:49Speaker 01

  I don't know how long I stood there, but I'm just looking at her. And like, I remember getting hit so hard on my chest, it was like a footy hit, like a truck. It was physical and it also felt like it just slashed my hole open. My legs couldn't move, they just, I dropped to the knees, I was like, I'm screaming, I'm screaming at her. Why, what the hell, what the hell?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Got to the stage where I picked her up, some, um, picked her up and sort of helped take the weight off, cause I thought.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanna try and, I wanna get it back. It was so coiled underneath with the electrical cord, how it gets rubbery and I couldn't move it, I needed a third hand, but I wasn't gonna ask Clark. So I thought, okay, what am I gonna do? I'm looking around, there's nothing. So I had to slowly just put it down and that didn't feel good either. Race back upstairs, got a kitchen knife, cut it down, load it down, took it around her neck and just started CPR and. I thought I got it back, I really did, cause I saw the chest going up and down, but when it worked out, it was just my breath going in, going out again.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know how long it did it for, I don't remember, everything was real. What I remember of the day, you know, I've only found out recently that, that when I rang one, one of my good mates, when I was looking at her going, what the fuck do I do? I didn't know that.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, well.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  That just.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  That type of, uh, type of shock and trauma that takes you to a place that most people are not familiar with.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and I, I didn't know what to do and it got to the stage where I went, okay, this is not, you know, I could tell.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And neck wasn't right and, you know, her face didn't look good and all that was happening.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  And I just went, what I can do with Clark, Clark, what's Clark doing? So I raced back outside and he's just standing right next to the wall. Um, he's still not any under idea of what's going on. So I just picked him up, got on the triple O and said, can you come here? And I remember sitting up upstairs, you know, at the front, in the gutter with him. And, um, you could hear the sirens. And when I found out later, it took like seven minutes to get here. It sounded like, felt like seven hours. I don't know what they were gonna do, but I just needed someone.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  To be there with me, you know, I didn't know what to do. It was like, you felt so helpless. Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  They, and being confronted like something like that, I would imagine you, you're not thinking rationally. It's, uh, just o- overwhelming. Would have been you, being a police officer, you'd also understand what takes place then. Uh, police are called out, you'd be spoken to and questioned and they'd be getting details. Well, uh, uh, how did, how did that feel from, from the victim's point of view more so than, uh, from or an involved person's point of view, uh, in a suicide situation? Rather than from a police officer's perspective.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  It felt like shit. It really did. Um. And I think I've written in the book where the, you know, the detective inspector sort of asked me,

• 20:52Speaker 01

  what'd you use your knife for?

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  But it wasn't just that, it was really ripping into me.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  And I wasn't equipped for that one. I didn't know how to handle that. I, I think I went into a bit of a hole there. I didn't know, going, what is he doing? What's he, what, what's he?

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Like, being a second year copper, I didn't know what the hell was going on there. Um, I now understand he was obviously ruling me out and he had to do all of those things. Um, because I know that now after, you know, spending the next twenty something years as a detective. By the time I didn't know what the hell was going on, I said, what's going on? Am I a suspect here or something? So, yeah, it threw me a bit, threw me a bit and I felt really fucking shit about it. Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  I'm like, I know it's only one person. He, and in hindsight, he was what he's supposed to do.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  But I felt that the organisation was not supporting me because of that comment at the time.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  But the, now you understand why that type of thing, thing has to be done. We could talk about this, the impact that had on you for, for hours and I'm, I'm sure it was a life changing event. But, uh, the way I, I, I would describe from that, you, you found yourself in the dark hole after that had occurred.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. Um, I didn't know how to deal with it.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  You know, I had the white picket fence on semi rural property on Gold Coast, Henneland with a beautiful lady and a, and a son, you know, ready made family.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  The next day, gone, absolutely gone. I had, I had a suitcase, a TV and a bed. That was it left.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  And I remember sitting on this, I went to my sister's place and she had a, like a same sort of thing, a granny flat type stuff. And I was sort of living downstairs. And, yeah, I think that I didn't put the screws in properly, one, whatever. And I sat on the bed and it went down, hit the ground and I just went, oh, what else?

• 22:44Speaker 00

  When your bed collapses.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's only minor thing, but.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  That's when you just go, when I'm down, man, why do that?

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  And that's where I went, what have I got? What have I got? What do I do? How do I start? What do I do? Like, yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Was the anger, was the, the emotion, was it anger? Was it grief? It was, what, what were you?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Which day?

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  It was different every day. Yeah. And I do remember going through all of the different types.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  You know, I was really angry at her for a while. Then I was sad for her.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  And then I felt sorry for her. Then I supported her. Then I got angry again.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  So the full range of emotions.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  There was something in your book that I found interesting and I, I wanna discuss it because I have so many people on the podcast and we talk so often about, yeah, life changing, uh, events where tragedies or, you know, horrendous crimes have occurred and how people, uh, deal with the aftermath. And I thought it was interesting that you had, uh, how people responded around you. You know, friends, family without naming names, but, uh, a couple of points that you brought up that you want people to acknowledge what you're going through when you're, you're dealing with a situation that you've just described. But you don't need people coming up to you and saying, and I've pulled out a couple of, uh, comments from your book. Time heals all wounds. You'll be stronger for it.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  And then there was one bloke who said, I, I know how you feel because my uncle or great uncle died of, uh, cancer.

• 24:11Speaker 00

  And you go fairly hard on those comments that that was not what you needed at, at the, at the time.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Not at all. Um, I don't blame them. I don't begrudge them for it.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Because of prior to that, I would have said the same thing as well. People don't know what to say. And I think part of what, what I'm doing in this public space is to give people a few little tips of what to say. Sometimes you don't have to say anything.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  You just sit in the, in the gutter with them.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Well, it's, it's interesting because we're having the chat about it the other day when we're, we're talking and, uh, I know a lot of families of victims of homicide have issues with or just say it doesn't help us with the way people treat us. And, and sometimes good friends will cross the road to avoid them because they don't wanna say anything because they just don't know what to say. Which, which is understandable. People don't know what to say. And as you said, you're not, um, cranky at the people for saying that, that, those things. They were trying to, trying to help. But you have suggested, uh, some comments along these lines that would be more beneficial. If someone, uh, you know, is dealing with someone that's been through a tragedy, similar to what you've done or, or what, uh, you've had occur to you.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Comments such as, I can't imagine your heartbreak. This is really fucked. It's not fair. I'll be here even when you're not okay. My favourite memory of Karen is. And it's subtle changes, but significant changes, aren't they? Hmm. Those, those type of comments. I still remember a lady, uh, lady I had on the podcast said the best thing she had. And she had had a tragedy, lost a, lost a child to a, to a murder. When people just came up to her and one person just phoned up and said, you know what? Life's fucked. And she said, that was the best thing anyone could say to me. You're, you're been through it.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Tell, tell us those comments, how they, they help you more than, uh, the ones that we mentioned first up.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, like a lot of the ones is, you know, you're lucky you're only young. There's more fish in the sea, you know? And it's gonna make you.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, they'll go down well.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, everyone said all the right things in, in their eyes.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  But what it did was it downplayed what had happened.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and well, it's not that important. There's more fish out in the sea or whatever, you know, um, you know, you'll be stronger for this. And I, I suppose over the years, and when you look at this, this is in the years, two thousand.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  And up to two thousand and ten, there was no podcasts, there was no internet, there was nothing. All I had was all of my friends and my family who hadn't really gone through significant trauma. They were supportive, but didn't know how to say the right words. And that's where I suppose I kept pushing it down and down because I felt that I was getting.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  The way that they were talking was like I, that was played down and it wasn't that big. So I stopped carrying on with it, you know? And that's what it felt like. So I, I didn't wanna bring it up again. I thought, oh, people are sick of hearing this shit, you know? But it wasn't until I started podcasts and, you know, internet and everything in the, obviously late two, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. Is when I started, you know, podcasts, remember it's over America or UK or something. And, um, wow, that's how I've been feeling for, for twenty five years.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I've never heard anyone talk like that. It is real. I'm not a, I'm not a weirdo.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  I, I can understand that you would be lost in your, your little world in, in that time. And you're quite right separating the, the time and that was a couple of decades ago. The world was a completely different place then. And it would be basically in the mantra of, uh, tough guys is, uh, you know, just suck it up princess. Get on with your life. Build a bridge, get over it. Those, those, those type of comments, which, yeah. Sound good in theory, but it doesn't actually work that way, does it?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, like in my reintegration from under, after undercover.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Went up to Dutton Park and there was a, and I just went to the female inspector. She was a lovely lady. Um, and I thought she would have understood and been compassionate and, and I think back then she was trying to do the right thing. But in hindsight, you look at it, it's not the right thing.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Um, and I said, I just, for a couple of months, can I not go to suicides, please? She goes, you can't pick and choose what job you go to.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  This was, uh, after.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so reintegration.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Where I just had to go back and do G Ds for three months.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, you wanted to avoid that.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  I said, is there any way? And I couldn't understand. It's not that easy just to go, um, you earn that card, don't go to that job.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  It's, it's not that easy. But she goes, what we've got to do is we need to desensitise you for police work. So I'm gonna send you the, um, uh, go and watch some autopsies for a couple of days. I said, no, not gonna do that.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  That is not going to fix me.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  It's, yeah, as you said, trying to help, trying to, trying to, trying to manage it, but I don't think that, that would fly. We, we had it in homicide, um, about baby deaths. We were doing a hell of a lot of baby deaths at one stage. And no one likes to do them, but it was mandatory reporting. So any child that died, we'd have to go to, and we're getting inundated with that. And I know that impacted on quite a few, few people and it got to the point where, yeah, they said, I just can't go to another, another ba- baby death. So the period of time after, uh, after Karen's suicide, I'd, I'd suggest was pretty dark for you and, uh.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The K P S gave me, you know, they agreed to give me three months off.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Which was great.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  But what that meant was that I was sitting in my sister's house. Everyone else is going to work and I'm just sitting there by myself going, for three months, what do you reckon I did?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Found a bottle. You're sitting there for, you know, in the morning, you're going, what did I want to do today?

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Nothing. And next thing you know, got earlier and earlier each day and was I writing myself off every day? So I'd go to sleep.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  That, that's a, that's a warning sign, isn't it? When you, you start to drink earlier each, each day. You eventually went back to work. You went back to work in, uh, in uniform.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  How long after it was you discovered you were interested in undercover work and what made you think going down that path?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I went back up to Brisbane, went back to uniform.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Um, at Interpol station, I still didn't even know what undercover was.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Had no, had no interest in it and, and I hadn't come across, come across anyone that had done it. So it wasn't in my, um, thoughts, but I did end up going into the C I B and, and just sort of relieve there for, for the next couple of months. And.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I worked with a, a fella, Punisher, who he had just done undercover and was still living it.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  That was his name, Punisher?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  That was his nickname.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, I won't ask.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I just liked, he liked the T V show, or the movie, I think.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Oh, right, yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, so he, you know, in the car, he was just telling me all the stories, all, all the good stories. And, um, and that, I was really listening to them going, this sounds all right. And then it was a couple of weeks later, I was at a, a bar in the, in the valley called Dooley's, playing pearls, bit, bit dodgy. And, um, you know, I was at the bar and, and I heard a voice and, and I'd been the same fella who talked me into joining the cops.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  And I looked at him, didn't look anything like him. He had bloody hair all over the place. He looked like, he looked like, you know, someone from a. What I called him was, he looked like, um, he looked like one of the eighties from a John Baby, Bon, John, John Baby.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  John Bon Jovi.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  John Bon Jovi.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Uh, tribute band, yeah. Well, all the rest of the bands over here, come and have a look.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  The, the undercovers.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  They're all the other undercovers and they started telling me about their stories and, and I'm going, man, this sounds cool.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  And they said, we actually got a course next month. We only run them every two years.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  My, good timing.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  You applied?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Did it, got in.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  What, uh, without giving away trade secrets, uh, just give us a sense of the, the type of course and the type of things they throw you into. Cause I, I, I know, like I know a lot of, uh, U C's and, and what they have to go through. But it's, it's testing you in a wide range of skills that are not necessarily, uh, yeah, the type of skills for normal.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Like most of the police higher end courses where it's quite demanding.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Most of it is all set up to fail and see how you handle the failure. Um, I suppose back then I'd, I'd already handled in my eyes a, a, a big setback. So anything further than that didn't really matter.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Um, and my heart wasn't set on it. I was just, I'd just do another thing. I don't care what it is. This sounds cool. But, uh, yeah, so they put you in really high stress situations. How you handle it? Um, there were some really good ones. Yeah, a lot of, you know, scenarios with people that you don't even know, are they cops or are they real?

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Just throw you into a pub and.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Tell you to come out with the number of, uh, or someone's address or things like that.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Their dog's name, yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, uh, the lifestyle that you lived, and that's what, I touched on your lifestyle, you lived, uh, before you joined the cops. I'd describe it as reckless, which I think is a kind way. That would have helped you in those situations, cause the type of things that the undercovers would throw you into during the course. I would imagine there's areas that you're very familiar with.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I was in training.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Before I even knew it.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  So, um, but the, I think the real part of the course.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Was that the, the instructors were just watching how you held, how you behaved, how you dealt with stuff. Uh, if you were calm.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Deal with it. But, but we, we did a lot of drinking as well.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, get on the drink. Don't worry about where the undercovers and some people get a bit loose and, yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  They'd even get, you know, get people to come in that night or whatever, just a random.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  And start talking to that person. Could be a girl, could be a bloke.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  And, and if that person sort of says, oh, I'm on an undercover, you know, of course at the moment, you're gone.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  Right, okay, yeah. Well, it's, cause the, the pressures are real, so they, they got to weed people out. And, uh, yeah, I don't begrudge them putting you through a pressure situation to get you qualified. Cause I say the type of, type of work that you do as a, a U C's. Now, it also worked out, you, you got through, obviously, uh, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. You found solitude in the undercover work because it took you away from the, the pain that you were suffering as, uh, as Todd. Is that fair to say?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Uh, talk to us about that. What's the psychology behind that?

• 34:59Speaker 01

  I suppose when I joined the undercover unit, they, um, they gave me a, a printed out piece of paper and there's your name, Donny Wilson. And I've got that, I found it ages ago and, and I laminated it and put it in the book and that's it. Okay, that's you and me on, really? Okay.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Take a car, head up to, um, whatever town you're gonna go to and.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  See you soon.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  How much of, uh, Donny do you have to embrace? Like, it's got to stand up to scrutiny. And when you're going in on the, on the crooks, their sus of, uh, undercover people. So how much of a, a profile do you build and how comfortable are you being, Donny? Because if you walked into the pub, I'd go, hey, Todd, how are you, mate? But you're not Todd anymore, you're Donny. How much practice, how much preparation does it take to get into the mindset of, uh, becoming another person?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, heaps and heaps. You know, all of my work colleagues.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  And my family, close, close family, basically we all just, you never said Todd anymore.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Always call me Donny. Live it, breathe it, practise it, have people yell out to you. And see if you listen to Todd or Donny, you know, when I was even sort of learning as I was going up to the course. I'd sit at a bar and I'd strike up a conversation. And I'd make up a topic that I had to bullshit on.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  And see how far I could, could go. And it worked every time. So I just got better and better at it.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  And did, and did you fu- fully embrace it? Is that what you have to do to be a good?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I did, I did.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  You've got to, uh, you, you've got to have the swagger, whatever that is. How would you describe Donny to, describe him as a, a person? What, what's his profile?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, Donny's that crazy, crazy bloke that would be the life of the party. He'd be in the middle of all the blokes telling a story. He'd do, you know, if someone said, you know, go and steal that, go and do that, go and do something stupid. Donny would do it.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Um, there's this thing that a lot of my friends now are saying is, you know, what would Donny do? Every, every time you had a fork in the road, you either go the right way or the wrong way.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  We always say, what would Donny do? Yeah, he'd do that. Go that way then.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. So steer, steer you, steer you away from it.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  And it, it became, it almost became where you were, Todd was fighting with Donny to hold on to who you were.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, I wanted to stay, Donny.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Cause, uh, look, we're, we're talking about it, but I could imagine it being a bit of a, a mind fuck.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  I think my mind was already fucked.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair enough. That's why you're the perfect, uh, perfect. So Donny, yeah, I can play Donny. I actually am Donny.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Mate, like some days, you know, you'd be at the pub all day.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Playing pearl, you know, talking to your, your crooks and all that sort of stuff. You'd be getting messages from your controller saying, okay, that's enough, come on.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  No, man, I'm having a great day. I'd rather be with them right now, cause I've got no worries with them.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  I go back there, I've got statements, I've got transcripts, I've got all this sort of shit, and then I've got to think about being tired.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  And that, that's, that's a part of the job when you talk about, you know, you could be at the bar playing pool all day, drinking. And, uh, building up a contact friendships and, and the type of things. Just so people understand, when you're saying controller, that's like a supervisor that's overseeing you. So if you're referencing your, your controller, that's someone that, uh, you're making contact with in, in the cops.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, a controller is a really good, um, conduit between the undercover agent and, and headquarters.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  And that person goes away with you, lives in a totally separate area.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Have minimal contact, but they are the, the ears and the eyes and whatever information that he can pass on to me.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  So if, if I'm, I'm running from a detective's point of view and investigation, I'm not contacting Donny directly. I'm, I'm contacting the controller, the controller's sifting through the information that comes back to me, all the information that goes, goes to you.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Let's, uh, let's jump in and, uh, and talk about a case. And, uh, one of the cases I'd like you to tell us about, just to give people a full understanding of what you actually do. Kabulcha, I want you to talk about, uh, Marshall, Crystal and, uh, Mad Madden.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Because that was a wild story.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  It was, yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  And this is, you know, we, we sit here laughing, but you, you can laugh when you've survived.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  I can laugh now, yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  You can laugh now, but tell us about that, because if you, if people think that the U C work is like Miami Vice and living the good life, there's a lot of, a lot of darker places you go than living the high life when you're an undercover cop. Tell us, tell us the story about that case.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was up in Caboolture, you know, it's a pretty, um, pretty sort of feral, sort of rough place. Um, when you get involved and it's actually really cool joint, but, um, yeah, you gotta, they can weed out the, um, the weak ones there. So, um, the informant that I had was only a young fellow and, you know, he wasn't really connected too high, so it was just street level. So I knew that I'd have to start with the street and just keep going, going up, because you always want to jump your next one and keep going. And, um, anyway, so I'll make, you know, Crystal and, and, uh, and Marshall. Cause Crystal had a link somehow to the next person that we wanted to get to.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  So, and this Marshall is someone, someone that I just genuinely did not like, not a, not a nice person at all. And in his house at, at Caboolture, all there was, was a, um, a set of, you know, stereo, you know, DJ set. Just, that was it, almost it. And as I drive into the, uh, um, the street, you could hear the, the music. And it was always Eminem. It was always Eminem. Oh, I still can, can sing every word of it because I heard it over and over and over.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  And that, that, that's, so you're, you're basically befriending Crystal and, and, um, Marshall to get some drugs and work your way higher up in the, in the pecking order.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I'd sort of go over there almost every day and every day. And, and it was like, you know, I'm chasing, have you got anything? Have you got anything? Yeah. You know, what about that other stuff? And finally he goes, oh yeah, you got a car? Let's go.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  One of the best things that ever happened in undercover was they gave me this, this car and it was a yellow vacationer. And had the black and white Mookow car seats on the back.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Cool.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  I was so proud, so proud. And it fit in really well in Caboolture.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Okay, you've just summed up the place you were working, yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah, and I always have, you know, mixed cassettes and all that sort of stuff with all the different songs. And I loved always turning it up and just, you know, ripping around. And, um, anyway, he goes, let's go, let's go. And I was thinking it was going to be from Eddie Madden, but, um, ended up being some other fellow and I was filthy, but I went, oh, who's his?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Who knows where that's going to take us? And it could be something good. So let's just go for it. So as we're going down, he goes, oh, I've got to go get some money out of the bank.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  And, um, and, you know, and you had to do the slips and give it to the lady.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Withdrawals.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  So I'm, I'm standing sort of at the back of the, the bank, uh, with Crystal and he could see him getting all angry because he, he had a temper. And like, I'm surprised he didn't hit the teller. That would have caused issues. But, um, anyways, um, he's come back and he was fucking fuming. You could see him fucking, his eyes wide and he's going, Crystal, will you fucking take money out of our account? And like, she was doing, oh, I had to get grace, she's my, you know, the junkies. And he's just decked out. Decked out in the bank. And I, I think that was my first one where my identity went, am I Todd?

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Am I Todd the copper? Or am I undercover? I'm going to ruin my.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  So I think it was, I stood there for ages. I go, what do I do? What do I do? I went, okay, I'm Donny. Fucking don't do that again, you rotten mole.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  So you stood over the top of her. How, how did that feel? Cause that goes against all your, your instincts and, uh, yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Shit, personally.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  But as I sort of went back to the car.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  But that gets you credibility in that world.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  That was smart work, Don.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. That, that was a, a good move.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  But yeah, you must have a distaste in your mouth when you see shit like that. And the type of people that Marshall, a piece of shit that, uh, yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And that poor girl, you know, she come running back to the car, blood coming down her nose and shit like that. And she was apologising, still apologising. Oh God. Okay. And it was like, this is the world I'm in now. Here we go.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  So Donny's just got to carry on as if not shocked at all and that you got what you deserved and yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  That's the life they live. And she's still apologising and.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  And how did, how did that job play out? Where did you, uh, where did you get further up the, uh, up the line?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. Yeah. But with that one, like, you know, I kept on saying, do not bleed on my cow seats. I don't know how I'm going to fix them. And, um, anyway, I gave a tissue, you know, just put it on your nose. Yep, yep. So we've gone to Red Roost, deception bay, picked up some gear and, and they just couldn't wait. They couldn't wait. They come, oh, let's stop, stop. So I said, no, there's fucking people everywhere. I finally found this sort of on the water. Looking out that way, I'm going, nah, I think we're all right. So they've got the needles out. Oh, how good, how good.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  The feel for steel, they were saying, yeah, get me right there. And, and I'm going, yeah, good, mate. Yeah, good, good, good. I said, I don't like needles, you know that? Yeah. And I pretended to vomit, but I didn't. And, um, anyway, I can hear Crystal direction. I was like, fucking, don't you dare, don't you dare fucking spill in my ga- car seats. So I jumped out of the car and I ripped her out and I said, get the fuck out of here. And I thought, well, that's how you treat her. I don't know.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  That's how Donny would.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  And as I saw that, I looked back over that way. It's, and it's a school, it's a primary school. And there's like 30 kids just looking through the, through the tennis courts going, what's happening here? I said, oh no, this is not good. Boy, I've totally forgotten what Marshall's doing. But he's jumped around and he's in the driver's seat and he's going, let's go motherfuckers. And I go on.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  He's on the high.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really hit him. So I ran, raced around and his window up, nah, nah, jump in, jump in, Donny, jump in. I said, no, you're not fucking driving this car. And he goes, well, you snooze, you lose, man. She's jumped in the front seat.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  So I've dived in the backseat just as he's taken off and he is driving like he's stolen.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  He really was. It, it was out of control. He was just being crazy, knocking letterboxes over, hitting cars, going in the wrong way. They're screaming at each other, you know, that they hate each other and they love each other. And then go faster, go slower, go, oh.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  I'm laughing at you, but not a good situation to be in.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was comedy. It really was, but dangerous. But I, I remember specifically thinking in the back, where the fuck's this needle? I don't want to be hit with this needle because I was getting thrown all over the place. I didn't get it, but I, I don't know what happened to it, but it must have still been outside. And, um, anyway, this lunatic pulls out a hunting knife and puts it straight in her knee to shut her up.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Stabs her?

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  That was another, I just went, what, what else is going to happen today?

• 46:27Speaker 00

  What did you do? What did you do then?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Oh, he then slammed on the brakes.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Started crying, what have I done? I love you so much. Blah, blah, blah. That's when I got out. I said, get the fuck out of my car. So I ripped both of them out, put them in the gutter, out of there, I'm going on. So I rang my controller, I think you'd better get an ambulance and some cops to this corner of the street.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  So he ended up getting pinched, so, and she got fixed.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  And did you, uh, did you get higher up in?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I eventually did, yeah. Got the, uh, the real big fella, uh, Madden. Um, he was, you know, my, I was talking about before, you know, the cops had worked on him many times and he was too good. He was a really, really big, big speed cook. And, um, yeah, I got him.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  You, uh, the, the steps in, in there, you, there was a passage in your book, you're describing sitting in this, uh, dos house at, uh, passing around dirty bongs and, uh, all that. You've just got to suck it, suck it up, haven't you?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I'm sure.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Like you, you walk in there, like this is an environment and, uh, the, yeah. I don't think the general public would appreciate the level of deprivation that goes into these drug, drug houses and, and what you're dealing with, uh, there. A lot of cops, depending on the nature of their work, would have seen those environments and you've just got to settle yourself in there and be part of that environment.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got told very early by one of the, um, informants and, you know, crooks along the way as well saying, you know, we don't do it like you blokes. We don't bring a six pack around and have, you know, have six goals with each other, you know?

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  We, we load the, load the bong up and pass it around.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And if you're not prepared to do that, don't come. Because if you say no.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  They don't trust you, you're out.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  They don't trust you.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  So how long did this job take and you're relocating to another town, you just can't turn up and be, you know, go away and back home every, every day. Do you have to embed yourself in the town?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Embedding yourself in the community?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wanna be seen as much as possible. Yeah, I was, I was out all day, all night, just being in the town, just being outside. I wasn't stuck in my unit, so.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just had to be, had to be seen all the time.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  So that was part of your, part of your cover?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  That you're up, up and about. How, how long did that job last?

• 48:41Speaker 01

  It was nine months all along.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I could have dedicated a whole book to the whole thing, but I sort of skipped over the main parts.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Cause it was, it was a fair bit of slogging out to keep getting, keep getting, keep getting. So I think with the closure, we had something like fifty four targets that I'd sort of got with another bloke as well. We both sort of looked at it different angles and, you know, there was a lot of people that got caught up in the net, so.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Cause I know if you embed yourself in anywhere, even, and yeah, even if you're hanging around with crooks long enough, you start to build a rapport with them, whether you like it or not. Does each job like that change you like?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, as, as it happens, you know, as, as the time goes on, you get more anti-police. Obviously, when you start, you're still feeling like a police officer and you're trying to tell yourself not to. By the end of it, you're really anti-police because you've convinced yourselves to be like that and act like that when you're around the crooks.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Like whenever you tear cop K, you give it a finger and all that sort of, what crooks do. That's it. And I just got too used to it.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  So you, you changed. Did you get back to your family much at all? Did Todd come back during that period of time at different stages?

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did over the times. Um, you know, there was one story I tell about the book.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  And it was just a, an indication of how my mindset was.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  You know, I think it was, I started in, in January in undercover work and this was February.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  And they're putting on a family dinner for me and I was on my, I was on my third day of a bender again and I'd been drinking all day since sunup. And I was just steaming along, phone was ringing. I knew there was a family do on for me. I'm like, oh, it's just, no, this will be too bad. I'm, I'm in a bad state. Anyway, my sister come and picked me up, she found out where I was and it was a little bit to get me in the, in the car. Finally got it and went, yep, okay, I'll go and do it. And I was that drunk that, you know, I was at the restaurant with my family and I'm, I'm swearing and I'm talking fucking bad. You know, just that dickhead in the corner that was too drunk and talking and everyone was just, could hear what I'm saying.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  And I'm giving them sprays and giving the waiter sprays and all that sort of stuff. Cause I just, I was in that state, you know, I hated the world, angry at what had happened to me. And alcohol sort of brought it out even more. But my dad and my brother kept on saying to me, just quiet down and stop the swearing. I said, okay, okay, okay. I said it again, I just didn't know what else to say, you know, I, I was used to it. And the dad said, okay, we're going to charge you a dollar for every time you swear. And they're just mucking around with it, just being fun, whatever. And I still, I had something like five grand or three grand in my pocket.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Of impress that was for a, a buy later in the week. And I got up and I slammed the, you know, the money, the hundreds went everywhere, tipped up the table. I said, well, that should fucking cover it for the night then, innit?

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Okay, I, I got notes about that. I was gonna raise that, I think I just called you a fuckwit or something, when you, with your family.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  I've apologized.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  But you, you've, you've described it and I, I'm, that's what I was saying at the start. I was thinking, I'm gonna have to phone some blokes that know you and go, is this bloke, you know, have, have we bought him back? Because I, I just on, on that aspect, I was reading thinking, this is bad. Yeah, when, when you're, you're acting that way with your family, like that's how deep you, you, you went into the persona of Donny.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Uh, they take you to a family function and you're carrying on like an absolute dickhead.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm so embarrassed about it, but you know, I considered not putting in the book and I went, no, I've got to bear everything. I've got to own everything and all that sort of stuff.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  I, I'm glad you did because people need to under, under, you can't change your persona, go and do the type of work that the U C does. And when, when you're going, going undercover and expect them just to then return to a family function and behave themselves. You've, you've been living the life of an outlaw and you can't then sit at a family function and, and behave yourself. Although I do think you went too far on that occasion. And you obnoxious prick, getting money out and throwing, throwing it there and tipping the table. Your, your family must have been really proud.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I just look back now and they, they must have just been scratching their heads going, what, what, what can we do for him?

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  He's, he's lost, he's not listening to us.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  It, it would be sad for them because they, they would be thinking they're losing you. And, and doing everything they can to hang on to you and they, they're losing you.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  And, and saying that.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, once I sort of got all of this, you know, and put it all together and, you know, I've, I've apologized that many times and, you know, mums and dads don't wanna hear that.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  I feel better saying it.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, it, it's, it's probably the fact that you had a good family around you perhaps made the difference why, why you're here talking, talking now. Cause God knows where you would, would have, would have headed after, after that. We might just take a break here, we're a little bit off Donny at the moment. We'll try, in part two, we'll try to get him, uh, get him back some.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  I never said Donny was a nice person.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  No, get him back some, uh, credit points. We've got a lot to talk about, obviously other crazy experiences. Um, I, I want you to tell the, uh, tell the story about, uh, your, your time in the bikie club where, uh, you've been accused of being a cop and you're wearing a wire at the time and how, how you managed your way, way through that.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Cheers.