The best confession police had ever heard: Caroline Clarke Pt. 2

Less than 10% of reported sexual assaults result in a conviction in Australia. So, what does it actually take to bring a rapist to justice? In part 2 of former police officer and survivor Caroline Clarke’s chat with Gary Jubelin, we find out exactly that. In this episode, Caroline details the aftermath of being sexually assaulted by a massage therapist - from the agonising decision to report, to becoming an active force in her case recording a confession that police called "the best they’d ever heard". Caroline also unpacks one of the most misunderstood reactions in trauma - the freeze response, a survival mechanism hardwired into all of us. Yet it still continues to be used against survivors in courtrooms, in conversations, and in their own heads. Caroline breaks down why it happens, how it works, and why the shame so many survivors carry about it is not only unfair, it's wrong. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Less than 10% of reported sexual assaults result in a conviction in Australia. So what does it actually take to bring a rapist to justice? In part two of my conversation with former police officer and sexual assault survivor Caroline Clark, we find out exactly that. Caroline became an active force in her own case, navigating the justice system she once served to ensure the man who assaulted her faced consequences. We also unpack one of the most misunderstood reactions in trauma, the freeze response. It's not a weakness or a choice, but rather a survival mechanism, hardwired into us, yet one that continues to be used against survivors in courtrooms, in conversations, and even in their own heads.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Caroline breaks down why it happens, how it works, and why the shame so many survivors carry about it is not only unfair, it's also wrong.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Caroline Clark, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Before we start, can I just read out a passage? It's about your journey, and I think it'll give us some talking points. Caroline was raped and in the aftermath of the most violating experience of her life, something unexpected happened. She stopped being silent. For the first time, she refused to carry shame that was never hers. She traced every pattern, every wound, every moment she had been taught to stay quiet, all the way back to where it began. And she found her voice. Not the performance of it, the real one. Again, a lot to unpack there. Talk me through what was meant in what I just read out.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  So to continue after, I got home and then I did what I'd always done, which was I'll just keep it inside. I won't tell anyone through fear of what the repercussions might be. Now, by day two, the shame was that heavy and insidious. I remember thinking, gosh, I can so see how people don't want to be here anymore to end it.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  You were feeling that shame?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  It was, I can't, it's like, it was almost like a dark cloud had descended and I wanted it to disappear. And as the days went on, the shame got worse, which also made me understand, is this what people carry? And it's, I feel like I'd carried it my whole life and I was ready to put it down, to lay it down. And I guess this was an opportunity. But the readiness to go and do that.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  When people say, oh, why didn't you report straight away? It's not as simple as that. You have to be really ready to sit down and talk through one of the most violating experiences of your sacred body to a stranger and then explain why you didn't fight back. I mean, you have to be ready for that.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So these were all the things that were going through your mind at the time? And, you know, just pulling back on it a little bit, you were saying you didn't want to be there. Is that how low that you got?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  I was so low, I didn't want to leave the house. I just thought, how can I continue? It's as if I come to a crossroads in my life where there was no choice. I couldn't carry all the things I carried and add that to the backpack of silence, if that makes sense. It's like a part of me was saying, I'm done. I can't continue. So I actually rang a friend of mine who was living in Costa Rica. I said, I've got something to tell you. And of course, tell me, tell me. And I couldn't get the words out. And eventually I did. And he said, if you don't go and report this, you're just going to keep continuing that same cycle your whole life, where people and circumstances will keep coming in to keep you silent.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And I felt like I'm, I want to live a life of freedom. I don't want to keep being silent. So he said to me, well, my friend's the head of the DV unit on the Gold Coast. As a friend, can I get him to call you and have a conversation? So that felt like it wasn't walking into a police station. It was a police officer, but it was more of a...

• 5:06Speaker 00

  A little less confronting than turning up unannounced.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. So he called me an hour later and he was beautiful. And he said, look, you know, he explained the seriousness of it, but he said, you don't have to do anything with it if you're not ready. So he was lovely, gave me permission to sit with it. And then the following week, which would have been a week after it happened, I spoke to a friend and she said, you've got, you've got to go to the police station.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  So I went to Newser Police Station straight away. I don't know what I was thinking to even just go by myself, like not even to think about getting a support person. I remember walking into the desk and seeing the uniformed officer thinking, I used to be that, I used to do that. How the heck have I ended up in this situation?

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Coming, it's hard for police to see themselves as victims when they've been on the other side of the counter.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  And you notice the words I used as well is how did I get myself in this situation? So again, that blame of this is my fault. I put myself there. I didn't protect myself. So imagine if I've gone in there carrying a sense of this is somehow my fault. Then you're already on the back foot to then explain that this was something that happened to me and it's not something that I invited. So I said to her, you know, I want to speak to a female officer. Of course, then they know it's some form of, I guess, sexual or domestic violence. So I sat down and I explained to her what happened and she went, he did what? And her response alone, and I said, is that bad? She's like, Caroline.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  And I thought, okay, this is not just going to be something that I can just brush off with a, give him a slap on the wrist, go around and talk to him. So then she brought a detective in. And of course, I think being an ex-police officer worked in my favour, but also went against me because I knew the journey of a victim. I'd been in the witness box as a police officer. I'd been cross-examined. And as you remember, it's the most terrifying place to be and I didn't want to go there. So I gave a statement, but not a statement that was going to then lead into anything at that moment in time. Told them what had happened and they went, you know, that's rape.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  I remember my whole body going, oh. And a part of me went, oh, this is serious now.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Like, this isn't just something that happened that I can just forget about. I said, well, what now? And he said, well, it's probably a high chance it would go to trial. So as soon as I heard trial and I said, I'm not, I'm not ready. And I literally got up and ran out of the police station.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Because with your experience, you'd understand the nature of what a trial would mean and the questions that would be asked of you and all the things that would be put to you.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  And already going in there going, this is somehow my fault. Well, that's what they're going to prey upon, as we know. It's all about consent. One word against the other. And how can I go in there and prove that I didn't willingly ask for that? And the fact that I froze, how the heck do I explain that?

• 8:19Speaker 00

  I can see why you're conflicted. Like, looking at it purely from an evidentiary point of view, it's a difficult one to prove. And you make this complaint formal. You're the one that, the whole case is going to rely upon your evidence.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  So I left.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And I went home and I think it was a good few days later. Again, there has to be that readiness. It's a process. It's not something you just go, right, I'm going to make a decision. So I went back in and they all went. We are so glad that you're, that you were ready.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Oh, that.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I think the support that I got.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Because of course they knew my background, they could see that I was a credible witness when I explained what happened in such detail and they, I didn't just, you don't make that stuff up. So I would say my experience with the police was second to none. Like they were incredible from start to finish.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  That's great to hear. I like hearing that the police responded that way. And I think another, another thing, and people that have been in similar situations as yourself, get further traumatised if, once they walk into the police station, it gets taken out of their hands. I think it's important that you, as a person that's been assaulted, has control of the situation, whether you want to make a formal complaint. Uh, because otherwise it just causes more trauma. You have the power taken away from you again. If you think you walk into a police station, you're not going to have any, any say in the matter, but you do.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And just by them saying that, look, you come back when you're ready, we're here waiting, means that you've got the authority.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And it's not, oh, the longer you, imagine being told, oh, the longer you leave it, the less chance that you're gonna get to get a conviction here. They were like, we're waiting.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Come back. And I remember one of the, the heads of Noosa Police, the detective, he said to me, we believe you, Caroline. And I can't tell you what those three words mean. And I think if there's anything that I wanted to go out and say to the public, if someone comes to you who's been violated, abused in any way, when someone says, I believe you, it's almost like nectar.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I, I can understand. Going in there, and if you've been questioned about it and people have got doubts, that you've been traumatised again.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Completely. And I've been to sort of relive it, but then you are sitting there going, if, if he gets arrested, it could go one of two ways. He either says, I did it, which I really believed in my heart he would.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Probably again, that little naive part. Surely he's gonna be honest. Surely he's just gonna own up to it because that's the beautiful heart in me that thinks people just tell the truth, right?

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Oh shit, yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then another part of me is asking, if he doesn't, how does then that look for me?

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  And my four sons. I'm a single mom, you know, how, how, how would I navigate this while raising boys?

• 11:22Speaker 00

  And I, I would understand too, there's a public aspect to it as well, when it goes to court. That's, uh, yeah, if it's in Noosa, in that area, you'd know a lot of people in the area and, uh, yeah, this type of thing would become very public.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a small community.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  And I think I'm quite a private person and going into a witness box and talking about someone violating, say those parts of your body and having to talk about that in public.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Is, it's not for the faint-hearted.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Once it's been reported, you, uh, you, you took a couple of days to go into the police after speaking to a friend and then a week to decide that you're gonna proceed with it. What were the next things that, uh, next things that happened?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Well firstly, it's almost like I had this angel that was guiding me because I remember closing my eyes and saying, there is absolutely no way I wanna go through a trial. It was almost, if, if there was certainty that it would go to trial, I would have pulled out. Like there was every single part of me screaming, no, no. And then this voice came in and it said, what if you don't have to go to trial? It was, whether it's my mum on the other side, I don't know. And I just said, oh, what do you mean? And this voice said, just take the next right move for you.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  And that's what I tell my clients. Don't think about three months, six months, nine months. If you take the next right move, the next door will just automatically open. It'll be the right door.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  So it was almost like the message I gave my clients was being regurgitated back to me. So I said, okay, I'm ready. And then Brooke, one of the females said, there's a possibility you could make a call to him.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  And have a conversation.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And see if he'll admit it.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  And I thought, oh, maybe that voice was correct. It's almost like I was being guided.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  There was a bigger part of me or something above me that knew that. And I didn't understand that that was ever a possibility. So there was a sense of relief that thought, okay, if he admits it, I knew then.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  That the evidence on, for me would be so substantial, it could then end up in a conviction. So I said, thinking it's the most terrifying thing I could ever do. However, I'm prepared to give it a go.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  And, and you contacted him and got, uh, an admission?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  I did. So.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Good on you.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  It was a spur of the moment thing. And I called him and in order to get the confession out, because he had to name everything that he did.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Which again was pretty scary. But I just thought, if I do it from the heart and just have a conversation with him and just ask him, like, I wanted answers, Gary. So I've got an opportunity now. Yes, I get it recorded, but I also get answers for myself.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Which was, why?

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Why, why me? I'm curious.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  And he said, I had a crush on you.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  And I said, I work in trauma and I work with clients and we have a duty of care. If there's any sense of desire or feelings, if you keep that to yourself and don't disclose that, then you're taking away an opportunity for me to feel safe in your company.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  If you would have told me that you had feelings, there's no way that I would have undressed and got on that bed.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  So he had these feelings way before that fourth session.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Kept it to himself. And in that moment, he swooped in.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  And violated a body that was semi-unconscious, relaxed, fully trusting.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  And with the freeze response, it tends to happen more so when you're in a place where you assume trust.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Because there's, if someone grabs you off the street, you know, people walking down the street, you might be a little bit, you can hear footsteps behind you, or you might look at a figure that looks, you know, a little bit dodgy and you sort of semi-aware. Imagine lying on a bed or asleep at night next to a partner who you've said, I don't want to have any sex tonight. And you're already relaxed. So he swooped in in a moment when I least expected it. So that's the most dangerous time because it's someone familiar who you'll never, ever think will cross a boundary with you in that moment. So I got the confession. He apologised profusely, saying, my bad, my bad, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I named everything he did to me.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  And I said to him, you know, I may never, ever enter a room with a male in this situation, gonna professional in a medical setting. You've robbed me of that opportunity. And you need to go on your own journey and I need to go on mine.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  But I trusted you. And when you breach someone's trust in that situation, it can't not affect someone for the rest of their life.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  So that lasted about four and a half minutes. We were meant to meet that day and actually see each other face to face, but of course the call happened before, which was great. And he said, please still meet me. I wanna make it up to you. He was panicking.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Because I think on that call, he wasn't sure.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  How I felt.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  And I got the chance to vocalise that and say, do you realise what you've done constitutes rape?

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  In that moment, his world fell apart.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And I don't think it fell apart because he took any accountability. It fell apart because he'd been caught.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  So we put the phone down and then Brooke, the detective came in and said, that's the best recorded confession I've ever heard.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And I realised that all of my police background, it's like it was sitting there waiting for an opportunity.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  For me to make someone accountable, to have a voice, to be heard and to do it in such a way that I had composure. I, I just put everything aside. It's like I was back in a role, had a job to do in that four minutes. And I couldn't believe how quickly it kicked in. Because after the call, the shake started. So I think I've obviously got this great ability in that moment to, to switch it on.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  At what point in time was he charged and did the police tell you that they were gonna charge him?

• 17:55Speaker 01

  So just after the confession, they didn't have many hours left of their shift. And this was a Saturday. And they said, I said, oh, when are you gonna arrest him? Oh, we'll get him on Monday morning. Monday morning, it's now Saturday. And bearing in mind, massage therapists are not regulated.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  So he could continue massaging. My biggest fear was him doing that to somebody else. I felt like it was my duty of care to stop him from providing those services to anybody else. I asked the police, can you put it on his bail conditions? I don't want him. No, no, no, we can't do that. Cause what about the old lady down the street? She might say, you can't take his livelihood away. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, so they were going to do it on the Monday.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Then I got a barrage of text messages from him over and over. He was spiralling out of control.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  So they said, oh, well.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  Four, four suplices.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Well, it was almost four. They said, oh, well, I said, what am I supposed to do with this? I said, well, if you think he's going to commit suicide, dial triple zero. And I said, you can't put that responsibility on me.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  So I think in that time that I left the station, they decided to go out and get him that day.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  So that was the seventh of December, twenty twenty four.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  How, how did you feel when he was, uh, found out that he was being charged?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Well, he didn't have an interview. Like in the UK, everybody's interviewed and they've got a right to not reply.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  He didn't have an interview.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  So he didn't get to give his version of events, which felt a little bit disappointing.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Uh, it was fine him saying it on the phone, but then what would happen in that situation where he's been interviewed by police? So he never knew that that call was recorded.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  It was never put to him because he wasn't interviewed. So from the seventh of December until the start of March,

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  It took three months for all the evidence to be put together.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  And the brief of evidence.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And the brief of evidence. So he didn't know. So of course, going out into the community, it was all, this is unfounded and untrue and I'm an innocent man. So you can only imagine when that brief of evidence landed on his lawyer's desk.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  When they realised that it wasn't just, it was a call that had been recorded. So I thought, surely he's going to plead guilty. I just wanted it to be over so that I could then start to heal and not just be, again, I've just got to be composed and get through this. But no, he pleaded not guilty all the way through.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  So you would have had the concerns of, you know, giving evidence, knowing the traumatic time you're going to have in the, in the witness box and the type of questions that are going to be, be asked of you. His name's public, isn't it?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  His name?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. His Cameron Petrie.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  He was, um, had a massage room in Sunshine Beach.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  On the Sunshine Coast.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Charged with one count of rape and two counts of sexual assault?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  The DPP increased the charges. It was just sexual assault. I think it was three charges and then they they changed them to aggravated sexual assault, which I was quite impressed with, that they had the brief of evidence and went, this is more serious than the charge that the police have given him. We're going to upgrade them.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  And the, the aggravation that he was in, the position of power?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  No, he actually performed oral sex on me. That was aggravated.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Ah, okay.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  That was the, what is this feeling? I don't know what it is. Like this, this is, I couldn't understand what it was.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  September twenty twenty five, I got called by a female at the DPP and she said, he wants to do a plea bargain. I was expecting that.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  He wants to reduce, he wants to reduce the rape charge and he'll plead to the aggravated sexual assault. Her response was, Caroline, we have got so much evidence. She said, it's ultimately your decision. Again, beautiful, they put it in my hands.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  But we've got enough evidence to take this to trial.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  So that was September twenty twenty five.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  So, okay, so we continued, pleaded not guilty. Fast forward to March, it was supposed to be the trial, but we're case number two. So we didn't get heard. Just before that trial day on the ninth of March, I get another phone call from a male prosecutor who had a very different demeanor to the female in September. Caroline, we're now going to be delayed another couple of months. Of course, they know that I'm going, oh, just want this over with. I just want to move on. Um, and he said, but there is another option for you. I said, okay, what's that? Well, we can reduce that to aggravated sexual assault. I said, we've been here before.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Why would I have waited another six months to be in exactly the same position? Yeah, but, and he started to sell it to me that it would be somehow easier. Now, I could understand that if that was the defence, but I'm thinking, you're on my side.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And this is where the no more silence felt like it was almost, um, in some way elevated the whole mission because for me, the, the prosecutor should have been, we want to give you a voice, we want to give you an opportunity. Yes, they want to reduce the charge, but we believe that you can do this. He did the opposite. It's going to be easier for you. It means you don't have to be re-traumatised. So I just said, do you know who I am? I said, have you listened to the call that I made? No, I haven't. I said, well, if you listen to that, you'd understand that I'm not an ordinary witness.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  I've got police background. And he said, we're not used to dealing with people like you. That comment.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Annoying.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Well, it also broke my heart because I just thought how many victims in their most vulnerable state, they were abused in their vulnerable state. And now they're highly vulnerable and they're pliable. We can almost put it on a platter, silver platter, that this is easy for you. No wonder our conviction rates are at less than ten percent.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Because if someone in, who's on my side, who's with me going, I want to think that this will be easy for you. Most will go, okay, then let's go down that route.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Well, you're expecting to be given advice that you can trust when, uh, you've put a matter before the courts. You're the victim in this situation. You've got the prosecutor. You think they're on, on your side. So if they're giving advice and you don't know any different, you're likely to take, uh, take their advice.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Cause you're thinking that they know better. So I said to him, but a female said to me in September, we're going to go all the way if that. So why, I just thought it was interesting, not that I'm saying that because he was a male.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think it's interesting. You've got two people from the same office with different opinions on the same set of facts.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And obviously I was frustrated because it was dragging on. However, I just wish that the DPP would have, even if it's not them directly saying it, the, the support service is with the woman going, we're breaking your silence. We've got enough evidence. We can take it to the end. Let's give you support. If you are going to get re-traumatised, there's services out there that can help you. Not, let's just take the exit door because it's going to be easier for everyone.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So I said, how's that going to benefit me? He gets no jail time. He gets his freedom. Where's my freedom? I'm carrying this for the rest of my life. So why would I just lower the charge?

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Because it's somehow easier on me. It's easier on him, not me.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  You convinced the, uh, the DPP that wanted to reduce the charges for a lesser, lesser plea to continue on for the trial. What happened then?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  So that was March and I was like, my stake's in the ground. I'm going all the way.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  And you know, this, this was, um, a decision for both me and, and my boys.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Hmm. Can I ask how, how old your boys were at the time?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  So they would have been nine, thirteen, fifteen and eighteen.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Okay. So they, they're dealing with a lot, seeing their mum go through, through this. Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  But I thought it's how I navigate it.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  So if I'm not a victim and I show them that mum's got this, thinking about my mum.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  My mum relied on me heavily emotionally, that I had to be her backbone. I, what if this is given to me that I can show the boys that I don't need to rely on you emotionally?

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  You don't need to protect me. I've got this.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  I can do this with you, but you don't have to be the parent figure to me. And I also thought, if I don't make this man accountable.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  What message does that give to my four sons?

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Is that, oh, well, you can do bad things and we just stay silent.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Oh, it's a, it's a hard lesson for your kids, but a very powerful lesson, seeing their mother go through, through this and understanding it. So.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  So it was, it was, it was three way. It was to protect other victims from it happening. I felt that was a duty of care. It was for me to break my own silence and it was for my, for my sons to know that if you hurt someone, then you have to go through whatever justice system puts you through and take accountability. So my eldest son, when I first told him, his response was, mum, I feel embarrassed to be a man right now. I hear, I hear that it happens, but I never thought it'd happen to my own mum.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Good on him.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Cause he's saying, this is not what represents the male.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  So they were all beside me. I didn't tell them all straight away. I kind of took my time through the ages.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  And obviously the last one, I only told him just before, because I thought this is prob, this is going to go public.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  And I didn't want him to hear it somewhere or at school in the small community. So from then on, the trial was then set for May.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  We didn't know a case number two again. I didn't realise this. It can be between one and six cases and it just requires one to just be, you know.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  But they expect everyone to turn up and carry the trauma and concern.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  So you're waiting. You're going, is it going ahead? Is it not? And I was suffering, I have to say. I was riddled with back pain. I wasn't eating. And I was just trying to go, just get through this while my whole body was clearly.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was feeling the effects. So May came. We were due to go to trial on the Monday, but I still had no idea.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  In my heart, I'd always said, he's going to plead guilty at the last minute. I think it was, let's just see whether she'll go all the way. Let's just see whether she'll go through.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Game, wasn't it? Really?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  And it is right. It's like a game of chess. And when it gets to the real crux of the time just before, that's when the chips are down.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Is she strong enough to, to go through with this? So the Thursday I went into the DPP and we went through everything. And it's more than just consent. They break it all down and it's, it's pretty hard to prove. I can see why our conviction rates are so, so low. I think for me, because it was a professional in that space, that, that was definitely a breach that I felt compelled to follow through with. Not that if it had been a date or something, it would have been any easier, but. He had a duty of care.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  So the Thursday we went in, we went through all the brief of evidence and we were there for two or three hours. And that's when it hit me, I'm like, am I really okay to go through with this? He was giving me some questions that I might ask and I just thought, oh.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  And they would have been hard questions that were gonna be asked.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  It was the, it was, yeah. And again, I'm like, you can be strong and courageous, but nobody prepares you

• 29:21Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  to go into that witness box and face someone who's gonna do everything in his power to disprove you.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Well, uh, to discredit you, like his defence team would have come in with every trick in the book.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  To discredit your version of events.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  So, I mean, all they had was the freeze response.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  That's the only, the, the, the not saying no and stopping it in the moment is all that they had.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  On me. So, you know, I had all of the, the biological responses I knew if I'd have been asked. I mean, I actually said to them, do you have somebody on nervous systems who comes in and gives evidence to say that this is tonic immobility, this is, they said, oh, no, we don't have, I'm like, oh my god, the justice system is so far behind. And I think it made me realise that I have to be my own advocate.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  So I think I left the office, um, it was two thirty and he said he's got until four o'clock today to change his plea.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  So this is, and I said, if not, we're definitely going ahead on Monday because the other case has now been thrown out.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  And the prosecutor said again, Caroline, I know you've been asked before, but defence has rung me. And they said, are you prepared to, to lower that charge? And I thought, holy moly.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And you know what? My mission is honour her no, it's on the back of my T-shirt. I've said no in September, I've said no in March, and here we are, four days before, and you're asking me again. I know it's your job, but honour my no.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Like even the prosecution and the defence are not listening to me. He said he doesn't want to be known as a rapist. I said, oh, interesting, well, maybe he should not go around raping people then.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Rape people then, yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So he wanted that charge reduced, which meant he wouldn't have got prison time.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  And he wouldn't have had that.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  And the, the facts would have been, I would imagine, with entering the plea along those lines. I'm only speculating here, but it would come down to, oh, he just inappropriately touched you somewhere. And the, the full criminality of what took place wouldn't have played out in the, in the agreed set of facts.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  It wasn't just a slip of a hand, Gary.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  That's the thing, like his, what he did with his mouth was very, it was, I mean, that probably disgusted me and humiliated me more than anything, the most degrading. So he couldn't have had a defence that I didn't touch, I didn't slap, it was an intentional act. So they asked me again and I said, I stood up and I gesticulated my hand and I said, my stake is in the ground. I'm gonna take this man down, I'm gonna go all the way.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And he said, I knew you would, but I've just been asked to ask you again. I walked through the door at three thirty five P M on the Thursday. I got a call five minutes later, he's changed his plea.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Which is kind of what I felt, so I just knew to follow my own heart, advocate for myself. And that justice would prevail in whatever way. And justice isn't custodial sentence for everyone. You know, I wasn't, my, my recovery was not determined by the sentence that he got. Because as we know, the sentence never matches the crime. Mine was about getting my voice back, standing with my stake and saying, no.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  This time I'm not gonna be swayed, interestingly, when I think about my father, by another man telling me that I need to go in a box and stay quiet.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  And make his life easier. I did that for my dad and look where it got me.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and this, well, you didn't do it this time, did you?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  I didn't do it this time.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  He got, uh, two, two and a half years, was it?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  So he got two and a half years for the rape.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Eighteen months for the aggravated sexual assault, running concurrently.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  And the argument was, um, the amount of time he serves in prison. What I didn't realise is, there actually look at other cases that are similar. I wasn't aware of this when it comes to sentencing.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  And that's a guideline for their, their sentencing, what the, the similar type of offence with the same amount of criminality, what that person got.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  So that was the argument that they debated on.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  For what seemed like forever, but there wasn't a situation identical to mine. It's like selling a house, I wonder what my house is worth, well, we'll look at all the houses in the street.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  But that house is not like my house. So it wasn't a professional, it wasn't in a room where there was a duty of care. So it's like, how can you compare my case to that case? That was more violent, so they negated it. If that was more violent, but yours was professional, the more like, like for like.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  For me, it seemed ludicrous. The defence wanted six months, we wanted more.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  He got eight months.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Okay. Well, from a, and it's easy to say when you haven't been the person that's the victim of the crime, but the, you can't hold on to the, the sentencing, I think that can be damaging to people. And I, I've seen that obviously with homicide, the sentencing that people, people get, the families of the victim are always looking for what the sentence, but a lot of people say, look, that's not what it's about. What it's about is that this person has been made to be accountable. What length of time that person spends in jail is not up to me, it's up, up to the courts. But good on you for standing, uh, standing your ground on that. Because, uh, as, yeah, a former cop, you would have looked at all the possibilities of what could have gone wrong there.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  And, yeah, we talked the freeze response and I wanna break that down and really explain that. So people have an understanding of what we're talking about there. Because as we mentioned in, in part one, and we, we talked about it and alluded to it. The questions that people would ask, why didn't you just say no? What, why did you stay there when this, this occurred? Can you explain it in your words? And then let's give a detailed explanation of what this freeze response we're referring to is all about.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  So it's a nervous system response, so you have fight, flight, freeze and fawn.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Fawn is like the people, please, I just give in, I just don't speak up for myself.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Fight obviously speaks for itself, flight, run away.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Freeze is when fight and flight isn't available.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  In that moment, it's a survival response. You know, you could look up on YouTube, uh, impala chase by a lion. And you'll watch the lion takes the impala down. And before it gets eaten, the impala would start to play dead.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  It slows its breathing to the point where its ribs are hardly moving, its eyes are stirred. So it's called tonic immobility, it's biology.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  I actually watched the impala on YouTube when I was researching for this and seeing what, what happened. And I don't know how it led me there, but it led me to the animal being attacked and the, the freeze response.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when you think about its intelligence.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  So if you can watch a video and see what it, that impala did, and that one did escape, if you remember. The difference is, when you go into freeze and you are almost, you're immobile.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  So, so you think about the, the body's response is to survive, so it'll shut everything down. So the frontal lobe part of the brain goes offline, so thinking.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Which is why often when, you know, police investigators ask you to go through your story, things might not add up.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And it might not be a sequential story, because this part's gone offline.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  So everything slows down, it's about how do I just stay alive? So if we're wired to survive, our body gives us that response. So that you can go, I can just shut everything down in this moment and just allow him to do, by, you know, using that term. Because if I fight back, there's a possibility I could be killed. If the impala would have started trying to run away, right, so we'll use that as a same analogy. And you think of domestic violence, the most dangerous time is when a woman tries to leave.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  So same as me, what if I'd have bolted upright in his room and said, what the hell are you doing? You just did, get me out of here. The body's going, I'm not even gonna send you there, because there's a possibility that you could get harmed. So we're gonna stay there. So when people understand, and it can happen in conversation or in conflict, you might lose your words. Or you might stand there and go, I wonder why I can't say anything. So it's not just in that situation, any time when you've, when you're under threat.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  But the issue with that is, yourself and the public go, why?

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, that's a question that I'm, I'm sure would have gone through your mind. If you went to court in, in front of a, a jury or been prosecuted, people would be asking that question. And unless we understand, and I, I know what you're talking about with the freeze response. And I have seen it in, uh, in policing aspects, but it's not widely known, is it? It's not widely, people don't, um, sort of accept it. And it changes the narrative when the police take the first response and then it goes through the courts and, uh.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And I wonder if we could educate and change. So people ask questions from logic. Oh, these are some of the questions I got asked. Well, you weren't blooded.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  You weren't bruised, you weren't fighting. Why don't you just enjoy it? I was like, are you kidding me?

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Men saying, why didn't you poke him in the eye? Now, that seems a logical question. Remember, the frontal lobe part of the brain is shut down, that's where our logic and reasoning lives. So you're not talking logic.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  You're talking survival. But there's no education in schools, in relationships about what does that look like?

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And when we can start to change the narrative, rather than saying, why didn't you do that? Versus your body did everything it needed to do to get you through. And honestly, Gary, it's the only way that I got rid of the shame. It's almost like I coached myself through it. You know, in psychology, there's, there's, um, theory called Gesalt theory, and you'll sit something in a chair and you'll have a conversation with it. I did that with shame. I'm like, what the heck are you here to teach me? And I had to unpack this. And when I looked at my body actually kept me alive.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I started to, rather than hate it, go, wow. You did automatically what you needed to do to get me out of that room without being harmed. Thank you.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Were you trying to process what happened to you after? Like, you, you're very aware of the freeze response now.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Did you have to educate yourself or learn what happened there? Were you, did you walk out of there and, and just so confused by the whole, whole thing? When did you become aware of the freeze response and the in-depth understanding that you have of it now?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  So I knew about it, so I studied it because I've, I've worked in trauma for a while. At the time, I was in a year-long container with Gabor Maté, who is my idol, I love that man. So I was already, I'd been studying for six months all about um somatic work. So again, it's interesting, it happened to me while I was in that container, learning about nervous systems.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  When you say in that container?

• 40:30Speaker 01

  As in online, doing learning, training under his compassionate inquiry.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  I'm just picturing you sitting in a container, but okay, we've clarified that, I understand.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  No, that would be quite nice, to sit in a container with Gabor Maté. Um, so I knew about the freeze response, but it's very different reading it and understanding it intellectually and embodying it. So it's like I, when I went through that, I was like, oh, now I get it. Cause everything slowed down in slow motion. Remember I said I was screaming from the inside, but nothing came out. Now I'm going to take this one step further because you've got the biology, which we understand is survival regardless. It's wired into us. However, let's take me back to childhood. A question I needed to ask myself was, because I knew inside of me, the part of me that was screaming was not my fifty-one-year-old self.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  It was ancient, she was little, even the panic in the voice, it wasn't me.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  So I had to say, where did someone teach me to stay quiet? When I've been harmed, abused, and then it opened up a Pandora's box to the four-year-old part of me that had been woken up in the night. So let's just put the two traumas together in my childhood bed in the night, in the dark, woken up on a massage table, eyes closed, in the dark.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  So what he did in that room, literally reenacted the very first time I was abused as a child. So it was literally the, almost like a carbon copy experience. So yes, biology puts you into freeze when fight and flight isn't available. However, what if you've already been trained as a little girl? That you have screamed, say, for the first time, and someone's covered up your nose or someone's. So two things I think were going on for me.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  I've been here before, a long time ago. That feels so true. I feel that sadness in my heart when I say this, this four-year-old has been suppressed her whole life, and now she's been put in a room with an opportunity to rewrite the story.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  The trauma that what happened to you later in life as a fifty-one-year-old, did that open the trauma, the memories of what happened to you as a, a four-year-old?

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was inquisitive.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I'm like, if I was screaming and nothing was coming out, that's obviously something that I've done many times over. Cause I mean, you're screaming, you, you know, if you're in, in, under threat or in danger, you would scream. The only time you would not scream is if something's happened to force you to stay quiet. There's, you know, the danger gets worse, it escalates. So it did. So imagine now I'm in the middle and I'm now wedged in a sandwich between two traumas. The current one with the massage therapist.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  And the four-year-old. And I'm like, like, that would have been enough to tip me over the edge. Like, where do I even begin? Do I deal with this one?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Do I deal with this one? And how dealing with them is gonna, how's it gonna get me through the court case? Cause if I go deep diving into my trauma, will I be then, you know, just courageous and strong enough to be able to get through the court case? So it was like a bit of a balancing act.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I wanna understand, because this is the healing, but I don't want it to derail me so that I'm not prepared then to go through the, the court.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Had to do.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  But it was necessary. It was that revealed that. And if I didn't deal with that, there's no way I could have healed that. If you imagine the two.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  Do you have specific memories of uh what happened to you as a four-year-old and the person responsible for it?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  I, I did a lot of healing around it. And what happens with the, the mind is when something is so devastating, shocking, the trauma is so bad, the mind tries to forget, but the body remembers. So if you notice throughout this interview, I've gone, oh, I feel that in my body, I feel that in my heart.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  So the body gives us a signal and then the mind tries to understand it. I wonder why that signal's gone off, right? So it stays in our body. You've probably heard of the book called The Body Keeps The Score.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So everything is stored in here, but a lot of very traumatized children will say as adults, I don't remember my childhood.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Your body does. You just haven't recalled it up here first. So I know that I was woken up in the night.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Now, I used to say, oh my goodness, I, I'm such a light sleeper. I didn't know why until I did this investigation, because I'm like, I'm only a light sleeper.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Because someone's come and invaded my sleep and I need to be on high alert. So of course, when the babies were little, it was great because any sound I woke up.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  You're ready for it.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  But imagine living a life where you've probably never had a full sleep.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Cause you're literally waiting in anticipation that that door might open and someone might come in and harm me. That's exactly what the massage therapist did. I went into a room and he did exactly to me. So it was a family member, it was extremely confronting. And then you have to go back and go, was my whole childhood just a lie? The memory that I have of childhood, so it's almost like you, you, you're wiping the slate clean and questioning everything, everything. No wonder I was petrified of that person. No wonder I used to shrink around them.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  So in some sense, it allowed everything to make sense. But in another sense, it was absolutely devastating to imagine what that little girl went through.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Went through.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  But then you can only turn it into a positive and go, that's why I was an amazing police officer. That's why I, you know, I'm really good with clients now because I, I've, I've been so curious with myself and unpacked and investigated that I can now pass on that wisdom and help other people. And the question, the question I needed to ask was, where did all this begin? Cause it did not begin in that massage room. So I call it the crime before the crime. That was a crime, he raped me, but where was the first crime that led me to that?

• 47:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  And that was the childhood. So unless you look at the crime before the crime, which was who primed me?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  To react in that.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Play dead, to stay still, not move a muscle.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Lot of unpacking to do, isn't there? I think full credit to you, that you can talk about this and educate people and uh, yeah, come through what you, you've been through and uh still have a positive, uh positive outlook and a, a purpose. Let's hypothetically, if you didn't um make this complaint, how do you think you would deal with it now?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I felt like the, what happened to me was allowing me to birth this mission. So it was all part of it. And I think the freedom I got from then speaking, that was my healing. So what if I couldn't speak now? If he, if I wouldn't have gone down the justice path, would have I still been able to tell my story? Possibly, but not in the rawness and the, the truth of what this story is now presented.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  But I think what's missing along the way is, and you talked into this earlier when we talked about justice, I had to be really honest with myself.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  If I get so attached to the outcome, I'm then relying on that to determine how I heal, which is giving away my power, he's already taken my power.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  You know, to get that back, it was, who do I want to be at the end of this, Gary? What, who's the woman I wanna be? Well, she wants to make sure that she never gets silenced again. Her voice matters.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  And I'm a beautiful role model to my sons, to the community. So I almost had to pack that. Yes, I, I, I felt for his, you know, for him to take full accountability, whether they did or not personally. He needed to go to prison. I felt that deeply and I, and I believed he would, but I wasn't attached to the outcome. It was, who's the woman that I'm walking towards at the end of this eighteen-month journey? It's her, he's there, and I'm focusing on her.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  Well, I think by having that mindset, that is a much more positive way of approaching it.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  If you, like anger, revenge, a whole range of emotions that could come from uh being a victim of a perpetrator like that, but that will destroy you. And uh I, I've, I've seen that happen to uh victims of crime where that they're being destroyed not once but twice because they're hanging on to that anger, but you seem to have, have found the, found the way through it.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Well, I also feel like if I have got anger and resentment, I'm harboring towards him. He's still then got some control over me.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Control, like, you know, we had Amanda Knox on uh, on the podcast and she talked about forgiveness and, and kindness. And she said, the one thing I could do in the horrible situation I was in, the one thing that no one could control was kindness. Now, I'm not suggesting this for your situation, but I thought that was a really powerful way of uh describing uh how you can control your thoughts, your direction, your emotions. And she said, well, they can put me in jail for a crime I didn't commit, they can do this to me, they can do that to me, but they can't take away my kindness, so I'm just gonna be kind. And that really resonated with me. I thought it was a very powerful way of taking control of a situation.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  And with bitterness and resentment, it's like saying, I'm gonna give you a, a pill of poison. You know, and expect you, but I'm, I'm swallowing that pill of poison every single day, expecting you to be affected. Now, I couldn't control how he showed up in the world.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And that's not, that's not anything to do with me. That's his journey, his trajectory. So for me, and forgiveness is a really great topic to speak about because people say, oh, you can't move on unless you're forgiven. Forgiveness for me was forgiving that little girl who believed that she couldn't speak. Forgiving the part of me that went into that room and believed that the only way out was to, to go limp because that's the part of me that needed to heal. So I forgived her. I forgive the part of me that thought it was my fault. So forgiveness for me is every single version of me, it's actually got nothing to do with him.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. We talked off camera and wanted to raise it about just because no is not said, that doesn't mean consent. Do you wanna talk us through that?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  I think the whole consent culture needs to be overhauled. So the reason I talk about honour her no is in the absence of a no, meaning she may be under the influence of alcohol, she may be feeling threatened, coerced, all of those things that suppress her ability to say yes. So in the absence of a no, it doesn't mean it's a yes. And I think this is a really great education tool for boys and girls to understand, I have got a right to say no. No can be revoked anytime. I can be with a man in a situation and say yes at the beginning, but halfway through, this doesn't feel safe for me and I can, I can speak up anytime. So if someone, I think with

• 52:13Speaker 01

  my court case, I wanted the justice system to understand that just because I was too afraid to say no, it doesn't mean that I was a willing, a willing party. I wasn't willing. I mean, straight away, there's an imbalance of power if we're to use my example. So the, the consensual act together has to be something that's enthusiastic. And people say, well, what does that mean? Well, we have to read body language. Someone's going, yeah, that's okay. I mean, you know, straight away, you can see that she's gritting her teeth and, and she's, and it's asking her, like, what's happening for you right now? Well, I actually feel scared. I mean, when you think about every single woman knows another woman who's been sexually abused or assaulted. So you've got a walking population of women who've traumatised. It's gonna be re-traumatised in an intimate

• 52:58Speaker 01

  environment. So we want to equip ourselves to say, if she's had an experience in the past where she's been violated, how can I create safety for her?

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Which is, how do you let me know you're not okay? She might say, well, I actually struggle to say anything. So I'm just gonna tap you.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  On the arm. I mean, it seems like it's back in primary school, but you know, I think men have to understand that the absence of this no, women often, like me, who may be being silenced, it gets trapped.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  And we pretend that we're okay. Cause centuries ago, women, and it still happens in this many cultures, are there to serve her man. As long as he's happy.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Well, we were talking off camera about marriages and yeah, the, what we're saying nineteen, uh, ninety-three.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone said in nineteen ninety-three, in Michigan in the USA, marital rape was still accepted. Nineteen ninety-three. I mean, you're talking, that's only thirty-three years ago. So I think this is so much more complex. As in, we're actually breaking down a culture of the role that women were here to play. Go back centuries. She is, she serves her husband. You know, women were objectified. They never had a voice, we never had voices. We were suppressed. So it's almost like we're now retrieving the very thing that was taken from us. You know, you're my property. I'm married to you, of course. When I want sex on, I click my fingers,

• 54:26Speaker 01

  you provide. So women are now waking up going, oh, I have a choice. And I'm serious when I say that. They literally, I can say no. I mean, how sad.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  That, that is very sad. And I think, yeah, on, on the issue of consent, and I look at it, the complication of it, it doesn't have to be that complicated. As you said, it's fairly obvious if someone's not, hasn't said no, doesn't mean they're participating in sexual activity that's been, been played out. And I, I think common sense should come into play. Common sense is not that common these days, unfortunately, but education and yeah, make sure that in whatever situation that you're in, from a man's point of view, the woman should feel safe. And, and, and vice versa, you know, it's a changing world, vice versa, that just you need the other person to feel safe in that, in that environment.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  But you imagine, what if the man, we'll use the man as example, as we say, you know, it works both ways, has grown up in a home where his mother tried to say no.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Like me. Her no was never a possibility. So you've got the girl who's, who's seen that no's not an option.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  He's seen his father override his mum's no.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  So we're talking about culture, generational trauma. We're talking about, you know, rewriting.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  Oh, you, you, you're just creating an image of my head of someone, yeah, coming home drunk and wanting to get with the, the wife and the wife saying no. Young children sitting there, seeing what's going on and the wife submits because to keep peace in the house. Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Keep the peace, exactly. Because that's what we were trained to do. You just hit, you just keep the peace. So let's give him what he needs to, to get him off my back, to quieten him down. But what's the cost?

• 56:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  The cost is a woman is self betraying herself over and over and over and abandoning that part that says, I don't wanna do this.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  To serve him. But the after effect of that is, I constantly let myself down.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  Have, have to submit and not be true to myself.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, it's okay to say, I actually don't feel like it. And for the man to say, you know what, I honour that. What's going on for you? What do you need? Do you need a cup of tea? Let me show you. And because, you know, a lot of women want to be intimate in different ways.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Intimacy is, you know, let's put a movie on, let's hold hands, let's, I'll cook you a beautiful meal. That's okay.

• 56:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Not just, I want my needs to be served and this is the only way.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  I think with the complications of all intimacy and, and sex, it, it's about, there shouldn't be an imbalance anywhere. It, it should, it should be equal. I, I think that's, yeah, a way to, um, a, address the, the concerns. With your advocacy work, um, talk, talk us through that and, and what you're doing and, and the messaging that you're trying to get across and, and where people can reach out to you.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Sure. So the no more silence was obviously born from that experience in the massage room. But I've been working with a lot of women in domestic violence and sexual assault prior. But then I realised that what prevented me in that moment from stepping forward was the silence.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  So what if we started to break our silence? And I'm not talking about everyone just gathering at a police station and that's, that's not the path for everyone. But the first step to healing is actually voicing what happened. So remember I said it has to come out of the body?

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  By naming it. So I started to, once the court case was finished and I could talk about it. So I've been creating a platform on Facebook, just building a community of people who have sat for decades and possibly not spoken up. So and I've got about, you know, twenty thousand people from all around the world who are saying, finally, someone, because I believe if one person goes first, the other person has permission to go next. And it becomes almost like this is the ripple effect.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  So then I speak up and I say, you know, I guess that's how the Me Too movement began. It happened to me. And someone goes, oh my goodness, it happened to me. And let me tell you, every woman you speak to, others experienced it or know someone. And they're just wanting to talk about it. So I created this Facebook group and then I noticed the pushback from people, which I think is really important to talk about, is how we then vilify the victim.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  And I think after the court case, what I wasn't prepared for was the victim shaming.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Did you, you experienced that, did you?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So his father.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Straight after the court, Channel Seven were there. They asked him, what do you think, Mr. Petrie? And he said, there's two sides to a coin. And that actually made me feel pretty sad in the sense that if that's the narrative of the family, he's admitted it to me. At what point does it become, he did this?

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  And then I realised, this is the, you know, the AFL family were the same in, in Melbourne when there was that rape. And, you know, they, they closed ranks and, you know, surely there must be two sides. And I thought that makes me feel so devastated for the victim because you've gone through all of this to go out the other side.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  And still not been believed.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  And still not been believed. So I was kind of gathering all this as information to look at, okay, if this is what we face, where do we need to change the mentality and the culture from a victim perspective? So I put a post out on my group and it was finish this sentence, what did you expect when? And oh my goodness, there was like almost two thousand people wrote their story.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  And I was, I was sort of reading through them from what did I expect as a seven month old on a changing table to everybody's story.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  And to seventy-year-old women. And I thought, there's something in this. Look at these women who are trusting this space to come forward. And one woman said, I've hovered over the send button for twenty minutes. I've never spoken this out loud.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Wow, that's powerful. Okay.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  So I realised this is a movement.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  And rather than what did she expect? What were you wearing? What did you, let's switch that around. What were you doing?

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Why did you do that? So the movement is that it's breaking the silence, it's breaking the generational trauma, it's listening to a victim without interrogating her. She's not the criminal.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's important.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and when she freezes, been educated enough to say, even if she doesn't understand what her body did, oh, I've read about that.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I, I think that's why it's so good to talk about what you experienced that give other people understanding of, that might have been through similar situations.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  And then if you imagine the video that you now have watched, oh, you don't understand freeze, I'm gonna show you a three-minute video on YouTube. That's what your body did. And then she can go, oh, this exists. And then you go to the police station. I think if they had literature to hand out to say, that's the freeze response, that's what your body did, it's not your fault.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Your body saved you.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think from an investigator's point of view, it would be handy to have that sort of knowledge when you're sitting down, getting statements from victims as well. Have an appreciation of the possibilities.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Because she wouldn't even know. And, and the courage to step through the door.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  And then if she can get some understanding around why her body did what it did. And then the courts understand this too. Might not happen in every case, but we can now start to understand a woman's body.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  And, and then if she can ask herself the same question I ask, where did all this begin? Was it just there? Or was it a long time ago? And then we can start to look at our childhood trauma and start to unpack that, which means that now I've got my voice. Let me tell you, there'd be no way I would ever be in a situation where my voice would be silent ever again.

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Cause I've broken it and that's what we want people to do. Once you get your voice, it never goes back down through the trapdoor.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  Okay. No, I don't think we're gonna make you not, not comment. Um, breaking the good girl code.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  How, how's that fit into the, the, the whole, whole scene?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  So I was already writing a book.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  From my, about my past, about how we're conditioned as children. And then when this happened, I realised I was coded. And I'll explain that in meaning I was coded to stay quiet, to be passive, to be pleasing, to not upset anyone.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  So I realised that we're actually all coded. Every single day, in any experience, we're living according to a code.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  You know, it might be, you know, be the good father and, you know, uh, stay small, be quiet. So if we sat to unpack all our codes and break the good girl code, I think we'll see red flags in relationships more. We'll spot cohesive control because it's basically decoding the codes that we were imprinted with.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  By my father, remember it's all, he imprinted it.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  I see what you're saying, the, the nineteen fifty's housewife.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Attitude that, well, it's a man of the house, I'll, I'll do what I'm, I'm told and I'll be a, a good girl. And it sounds condescending even saying, saying the words, but that type of narrative, that's what you're trying to break. But no, you've got a voice, stand up, talk, stand up for yourself.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  And if I hadn't been taught to be submissive to the man.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Like my mother was.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  I would probably never ended up in that massage room. It led me there because I needed to break the code.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  So I could list probably A four sheets of coding. So let's look at the coding, particularly with young girls and boys have their own too. You know, the boys don't cry, girls, girls don't get angry. So if we can actually get the codes out of the vault, break them down, re-code ourselves with, it's safe to speak.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna get thrown against a wall by my dad, so it's safe to have a voice, which is where I am now. It's safe to be in a room because I can protect myself.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  I'm not four years old anymore.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  And when I took that little girl, when I looked around the court before the trial, I thought, I just wanna go and familiarise myself. I was shaking so violently.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  And I stopped for a moment and I breathed and I said, how old am I right now? And this little voice said four and I went, ah, and I got her by the hand. And I, and I said to her, darling, you're not facing your father.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  So that, that was the, the key moment because she goes back to, oh, well, if I speak up to my dad, I get hurt. She sees the massage therapist as her father.

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Representation. So the healing was taking her by the hand, I've got you.

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  I'm now fifty two.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  You're not four, you're safe, no one's gonna hurt you. And what a beautiful healing journey.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  To then integrate that part back to me and go, I'm, I'm gonna look after you, nobody will hurt you, you're not four. Cause if I was a four year old, it's meant to, in that situation with a six foot two man, protect herself.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  She, she's gonna submit. So the coding is that, whatever being coded, is it serving me? Looking at my relationships as a reflection and how can I break it?

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  So it's, it's gone from the book that I was originally writing into breaking the good girl code, which kind of fits into the whole mission. If we break the code, we break the silence.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. Lots of work to do, lots of work to do. But I, look, I found it very educational and, and quite fascinating, having this, having this chat. And good on you for coming out and speaking about this. But yeah, when you're walking around with a T-shirt on, no more silence, I, I figured you, you've got a little bit to say. Well done. Yeah.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Well done for turning what is a horrible situation and finding some positivity in it, in the, the direction it's given you in life. And the help that you're trying to do others. And also thank you for your work in the, in the cops. So I know the sacrifices you've got to make and the work you did after that in the child protection space. It's a, it's a dark world, isn't it?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so dark.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  But I think the world's ready to make a change and I think the more that we'll speak up.

• 1:06:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Changes hap- it's like we need to roar, we need voices to come together, to be able to say, we've had enough.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  You know, we've had enough of this suppression and this violence and this harm. We need men and women to come together.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  To unite and not divide, to come together.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  And I think there's a possibility that we can. I believe in my lifetime that I will leave a legacy behind.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I think, I think the legacy might be for boys that you're raising that have been pointed, pointed in the right direction. So congratulations on that too. Thanks very much.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Cheers.