Infiltrating Australia's illegal brothels: Jas Rawlinson Pt. 2

For 18 months, Jas Rawlinson went undercover to investigate illegal massage parlours across Brisbane. What she discovered was venues hiding exploitation, debt bondage and human trafficking in plain sight. In part two of her chat with Gary on I Catch Killers, Jas shares the personal stories of women she met inside these venues, her chilling encounters with men on underground forums, and her frustrating attempts to get police and media to take action. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  It's happening in your neighbourhood, right now. Young women, trapped, coerced, forced into sexual servitude. Hidden in plain sight behind the doors of massage parlours and legitimate-looking businesses. And most of us have no idea. In part two of my chat with Jas Rawlinson, we dive into a years of work going undercover, gathering evidence and fighting to make people care about the victims caught up in this world. This conversation is confronting. It's uncomfortable, but it's one we desperately need to have. Have a listen. Jas Rawlinson, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Okay, well, we've talked about your early childhood and we finished off giving men, good men, a rap, but then we talked about some of the things that, yeah, men don't shine in, different aspects of their life. What I want to start off talking about now is your, let's call it an investigation, because I think it was an investigation, into the seedy massage parlours, which, yeah, quite often masquerading as a massage parlor, but they're illegal brothels.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  And we'll do, we'll do a disclaimer here so we don't get ourselves in the trouble. There are genuine.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Legitimate ones.

• 2:08Speaker 00

  Legitimate massage, massage businesses. But I, I think people that, uh, yeah, have got their eyes open would know the type that we're, uh, we're talking about.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  One of the things, uh, again, and if I could just borrow your book for a sec, because I keep referring to it and, uh, I'll just, yeah. The cover, the cover of your book, here's, I've put you there. One of the things you refer to, um, in your book and that you think this was a, a turning point. When you went over to, um, Thailand and you're with a group and that you're looking at human trafficking and, uh.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we went with, uh, an organisation that supports victims of human trafficking. And so they had taken us to have a look at some of the, I mean, I say have a look at, but they were taking us through the red light district.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  And we were learning about the places where many, you know, young people, boys and girls and, and women as well, had been rescued from.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  And that was really eye opening. That was some of the early days of me learning more about human trafficking.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  It left an indelible impression on your mind, but one of the things that you, you wrote in the book and, uh, when you were walking through that group, a, a young girl reached out and, and held you, held your hand and it wasn't in a confrontational way. It was in a way that, that was almost, you looked into her eyes and you could see her, see her pain and, uh, the quote, uh, I made a serious commitment, don't look away. I told myself, lean into the pain. Remember, nothing changes unless we choose to confront that which we wish to change. Powerful words, but that was the sort of mentality you, you came away from that, that experience and just seeing the pain in this young girl's eyes. And there was nothing you could do to, uh, to help her.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  And I'd, and I reached out to the organisation that we were with and I was like, look, I know. Probably grasping at straws here, but you know, this is the young woman that reached out to me in the, the red light district and it was in, in this place, I won't say the name of it, but it's a very famous place where a lot of men go to get sexual gratification. And there's a lot of bars and things there. And the young women, you know, some of whom are underage. Yeah. Will sometimes be standing outside and they'll, you know, they'll wait till a group of men are coming and then they'll put their masks on and they'll, you know, start giggling and they'll try to get you to come in. And this young woman just reached out and just

• 4:33Speaker 01

  touched my arm and I turned and looked at her and she just kind of stared at me for a moment and then she gave me this really small little smile. And it was so different to the other women who were like, come in, come in, like trying to get you to come in and buy drinks and things. And I was like, what, what is this like woman's story? What's going on here? But we were walking through it the time to leave. And I just didn't know what to do. And there was nothing I could do except for to just give her a little smile, just like, I see, I see you. And I did reach out to the organisation later and I'm like, look, I know it probably sounds silly, but this is where I saw this young woman. Here's a photograph I got of the outside of it that, that shows her. I don't know if there's anyone

• 5:15Speaker 01

  that can go. And I was like, I don't know, can, can anyone do anything? Yeah. I don't know if she's okay or not, but there was nothing I could really do. But that quote that you read was really, I mean, that's, that's what I've always tried to empower others with is when we see something, don't look away. Yeah. We not, might not be able to help, or we can't help every single person out there who's suffering in some way. But what's important is that we don't look away and that we do do what we can. So when I came back from that trip, I was really committed to doing whatever I could, wherever, to help survivors or victims of, of sexual exploitation. And that included, you know, running fundraisers to raise money for organisations or for rescued,

• 5:58Speaker 01

  um, victim survivors that needed support. So if I could help financially, I did. And, and I have supported various organisations for years financially, but it was also. You know, coming into the investigations I did into illegal brothels.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  It was also making a decision not to just like see those dodgy little flashing signs and those newspapered windows and just ignore it.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Turn away from it.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  But to, as I did over time, to find ways to try and help

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  some of the women in there or to go to the police. And that wasn't really, they, they didn't really help me. But I knew that at least I'd reported these venues and I was doing what I could.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  When you first went over to Thailand, how, how did you get involved in this group? Like, what initiated?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  So that all stemmed from the festival as well, where I was working as a photojournalist.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  And so as long, as well as meeting the men at the men's shed.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Um, one of the stories I picked up for that day was to do a story on Destiny Rescue and the work that they were doing in anti-human trafficking. And so then I started to learn more about them and I'd been um, donating to them for some time. And then in twenty, I think it was twenty thirteen, I went overseas as part of a group with them.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And um, that was when I went over and helped, you know, there was a young woman who was starting her own hair salon business and we helped to renovate that space for her and help clean it and, and get it all ready for her to open her own business. And we helped with, at some of the prevention homes with, you know, getting, getting their gardens done. Um, or just helping in lots of different ways where we could. And at the same time, getting to learn a bit about the issues that were happening over in Southeast Asia and the work that they were doing. So.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  The Southeast Asia, and I'm, I'm sure it would be confronting, seeing what you would have seen going on a tour like that. There's some, and I, I don't aspire to this, but I know there, there's narrative there that, well, that's over in another country. We shouldn't buy, buy into it. It's uh, helping the girls. The girls are there because they're paying for their families and their families are actually forcing them into that sort of lifestyle. And that, who are you? Yeah, a group of people.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, white savers, you know.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, buying into the woke ideology and, yeah, all the other criticism.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  What's your thoughts on that? Because I think you can shout those opinions down pretty quick. What if someone came at you like that going, well, you shouldn't interfere. That's their culture. You let them do what they do. Who?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I get it all the time. There's entire Reddit and internet threads written specifically about me and how I'm a prawn of the patriarchy or something like that. I've never actually read the article, but it comes up in S E O. And I'm like, oh, that sometimes it comes up and there it is again. And it was exactly what you said there, like writer, you know, Jazz Rawlinson's bits, woke agenda or something like that. But a lot of men have come at me, especially men that do like to travel to Southeast Asia to exploit women sexually. I'll call it what it is. That is what it is. That's why they go there because they can buy a girl for, you know, back when I was investigating or learning about it over there. I could buy some of these hill tribe girls in certain villages for, you know, a couple

• 9:18Speaker 01

  of dollars. They can get their beers for a dollar or a couple of dollars. And they would come at me and they would be like, well, you know, they're paying for their families and basically like they're making a living. So why are you stopping them from making a living?

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And I've said, I've said many times, like, hey, maybe there are some women who are there who have other options and they choose to do this specifically because they want to.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And they have other options at any time, but a large majority are there because of a lack of any other option.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  And what I learned is that a lot of women are coerced, sometimes even kidnapped into it, or often love bombed, groomed and coerced into the sex trade from hill tribe villages.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  And in those villages, they don't even have passports.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  So they don't have any way to get a job in the city. And just like in many relationships, where we see coercive control and grooming, someone might come to the village, and these are some of the stories I heard when I was there. And they'd say, hey, we've got this restaurant job and we're looking for young workers, we're looking for workers who would like a restaurant job. And you think about it, if you've grown up in an environment where you don't even have a passport, you live in the hill tribe, you live with very little. As a daughter, it is your responsibility to provide for your family. Of course, you're gonna go, hey, I'm gonna take this opportunity and run with it. So they tell them like, hey, we've got these restaurant jobs and we can take you there.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  And then there's many cases where those young women are sexually assaulted, raped.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Some escape, some don't. Others stay because they have no other options. They don't have identification to get any other job. And some, you know, believe that, well, this is what I have to do to support my family. So I always clap back at, you know, there's, there's an article I wrote for news.com.au many years ago, where I spoke with an undercover worker who I'm friends with. And he shared with me his experiences of spending many years standing, sitting alongside men in bars, drinking with them.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Pretending to be one of them. When I say pretending, I, I don't mean he engaged in any of those things.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  He would sit in the bars and talk with them and pretend that.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  He was there for the same kinds of things. And the men would say to him, oh, well, you know, I'm helping her out. Like I'm helping her to provide for her family. And he said to one of these men one day, if that was your daughter, would you like me to come along and take her and have sex with her and give her some cash at the end?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Like, would you like your daughter to live that life? And it was like, oh, well, no, not really. But it's like, you're not helping them. You think you're helping them, you're just helping, you're just pleasuring yourself.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  And gaslighting yourself and pretending, and gaslighting others and pretending that you're being a savior to them.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  You, you can't.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  But you're not.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  They, they can't dress it up that, oh, well, they're helping, helping those poor people.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  It's like, go and give them, go and give them money and groceries.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Bring them groceries, find job opportunities for them if you wanna help them.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Job opportunities where they don't have to be at risk of death or severe harm or sexual disease or anything, you know, lifelong trauma. Yeah, they're just, just lying to themselves.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  And that, that's, that's the sadness of it. But yeah, that, that's overseas and people, yeah, well, they, they, I'm not sure how, if they do actually, but you hear the talk of a sex tour or whatever.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  I'm sure it's advertised and.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I sent it out the time.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Those uh those type type of things. But with people like yourself speaking out, I think it's calling it for what it what it is. Because it's it's almost like it's too ugly to really delve into. Let's look at the dynamics of it. But you've got young, innocent girls from a hill tribe in uh yeah. A really starting off a disadvantage and a power imbalance. And then cowards to come into the city to make some money. The family's probably, oh, this is good. We're we're going to survive. The family will have have food. What a horrible situation to be in.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the lifelong trauma that many of these women live with is just horrific. You know, from like this, there's women that I've sponsored. There is, you know, there there was a young person that I had the honour of interviewing. Um who'd who'd, she didn't say that she'd been in those sorts of situations. And I don't know, maybe she wasn't. But I also know that within that culture, it's not something that they want to admit to. If they did have to be in that environment. But um I've interviewed women that were in exploitative situations in other ways. And many of the women's stories or girls, you know, there were girls that I met on that trip

• 14:09Speaker 01

  who were thirteen, fourteen or fifteen and had already been out of the industry for two or three years.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  So how young were they when they were thrown into the industry?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  So it's like, it's like it's happening. You're not helping. But then, as you said, there's people who will say, well, that's happening overseas. So why should we really care about it? And as long as they're getting money and they provide for their family.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Well, it it's not dissimilar to uh child pornography. The industry wouldn't flourish unless people wanted to uh wanted to view view it.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Don't take up the service.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Demand for it.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it it wouldn't uh wouldn't be there. And the girls over there, and we'll talk overseas before we bring it bring it back here. They deal with the shame too. Like quite often, they're they're forced into an industry and then they've got to carry carry that uh shame. And their families uh reject them because of the work they did. Yeah, horrible situation.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Like, well, what what's left for me?

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Maybe I go back to that because what else do I have to offer now?

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Like my family, I brought shame on my family or I don't want them to know, so.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  You've been over there, you come back to Australia and you're driving through your suburb. And you look and.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Newspaper windows.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Oh, what's that? And your curiosity got the better of you. You described in part one how you went in there and that, you know, the person just slightly opened the door. That's sort of an indicator that it's not a.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  She's like, oh, you're not male. What are you doing here?

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Bit confused.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Tell us that story, how deep you went into that. And I think you got on the social media chat or a chat line with, with people, people involved in it.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Forum of some kind.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  That's as much as I will say. Um, so yeah, in part one, I was talking about that Queenslander house that I went to and I pretended I was new to the area and looking for somewhere to get a massage. And yeah, they would have been suspicious going, this is not our usual clientele. Um, and that's where I met this woman that I called Chelsea in my book and began to understand more about what she was experiencing in terms of sexual pressure from men. Even though she wasn't providing sexual services and her boss there wasn't forcing her to.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  She was still exposed to sexual harassment and very, some very future scary situations that we both found ourselves in together. There were other places I went into where there was somewhere on the south side. And again, it was like an old Queenslander home. You couldn't access it from the front. On the front, it had like a big, say like hot stone massage sign or something like that. So, you know, I walked around the back, which red flag, if you have to access the venue from the back.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And you have to walk through their clothesline, clothes. It's probably not very legit. I walk up and as I come in, I see this. And, and look, I just want to say first up, the people who go to these venues come from every, every culture, every background. You know, I've seen white men, I've seen men that aren't white.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  That particular day I saw like a Lebanese man.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  And he was with a young Asian woman. She looked very young and she just had her arms like wrapped around herself and she was hot, like bent over.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  And he was just like walking out like all casual. And, um, I was like, that young woman, like dressed in a little body con mini dress.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Doesn't look very comfortable right now. And I'm standing there in the back door of this like Queensland at home. And then this woman comes up and I said, oh, hi, um, I saw you do hot stone massage. And she was like, huh? And I was like, you do hot stone massage? And she was like, hot what? I was like, yeah, okay, I know what's going on here. So I did my spiel and asked for a business card. And sometimes I'd get a business card. Sometimes they didn't have one and they just write their number on a piece of paper. And then when I get home, I would search that phone number online. And it would always come back to some sort of adult forum or a Twitter account, like an X rated Twitter account.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  And that was how I started to get this pattern going. And I started to look at more and more places, all different environments, like, you know, some more seedy areas and then some very rich neighborhoods where you've got million dollar houses interspersed with these little, little venues. One night, um, a friend and I sat outside a venue that had been raided years earlier and it was still operating. And we sat there and we just waited to see if any women came out.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Because it was an open late venue, like all of them. We sat there till about 10 o'clock and no one came out. Like all of the others, you could only access it from the back door. I did go into that one once and have a massage. Um, so what I would do is I would go in, get a card. And then later on, I would spend my own money to go and get just like a regular massage, which were often not very good massages. It's like my back would just get pounded for like fists pounding on my back for half an hour.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  How to do the proper massage.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  I'd walk out with my back all effed up, you know? And, um, meanwhile, you know, I, I was reading articles of men who were. Doing their own undercover work and actually sexually exploiting women in the process and getting paid to do these investigations. And I'm like, here I am trying to expose what's going on, getting a, a, a bad massage and walking out with a sore back.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  But the whole reason I was doing it was to try to make connections with some of these young women.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  And usually I only had to go once to find out what was actually happening.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  I would build, you know, a little bit of a connection with the, the young women and they would talk to me about.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  So while you're in there getting, getting a massage, you're talking to them and they're revealing a little bit.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And often they'd be there alone. Sometimes there would be a mama-san there, which is like the female manager and they, they, they've been cases here in Australia where you've, it's been reported in the news of these female mama-sans exploiting these women, of forcing them into human trafficking. But there was one venue I went to one night and there was just a young Asian woman there all by herself and she's massaging me and I'm just sort of trying to talk to her about her day. And she keeps apologising because she, she can't really do the massage very well. And she's, I'm so sorry. Is this okay? And I just said, yeah, it's okay. It's really not, but it's okay. And then I'd say, oh, you

• 20:37Speaker 01

  know, maybe just like a little bit more pressure or something. And she'd be, okay. And then I noticed I hear this sniffling and I'm like, oh, maybe she's just got a little bit of a cold or something. And then I hear more sniffling and then I can feel her fingers just trembling on my back.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  And I say, you okay? And then she just broke down into tears. She was sobbing and she was like, I'm so sorry. I'm trying my best. The man that was in before you, he's so angry, so angry. Um, you know, I'm not doing it properly. And I was like, well, look, if nobody's taught you how to do it, how could you, you know, like, how could you know how to, how to do a proper remedial massage? Like, I'm sure you're doing your best. And just tried to comfort her. And, um, at the end of that night, cause it was fairly late, I said, how are you getting home? And she was like, I'll, I'll get the bus. And I was like, look, can I drive you home? And, um, eventually she was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, cause I'm, I'm happy to. Like, I'll wait with you here for the bus or I'll drive you. Either way.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  So I make sure you get on a bus or you get home properly, um safely. So she ended up saying, yes, you can drive me home and I start driving her and then she says, oh, but you'll need to drop me off a little bit before the house. Um. You can't drive up to the house. And I was like, oh, okay. Why is that? And she was like, oh, the landlord will be very angry. And I was like, what kind of place are these poor, you know, migrant workers living? And she was like, oh, I was asking her about it, like, oh, what's the, you know, what's your accommodation like? Do you like it? And she said a few things that were raising red flags, which, for example, she told me it was, she lived there alone, but she was only paying, say, something like fifty dollars a week or a hundred bucks a week.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I'm like, even back then, you know, in that timeframe, that's not, that's not how much a house to yourself costs. And then she's telling me she doesn't want anyone to see her dropped off. And I was like, what in the world am I stumbling onto, you know? So I dropped her as she asked me. But then what I was finding with like to come back to the forum, I was seeing, like, so I would go to these online forums, which are just disgusting.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Pretending to be a, a, a one of the, one of the men.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I signed up to the forum and I gave myself a username that was just like all of the other people on there with gross innuendos in it. And I was like, you know, I've got to try and look like I'm one of them.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Big Bob or something like that, yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, they all gave themselves all kinds of stupid names. And it was, you know, it's a full boys' club in there. So they're, they're bragging about where they're getting their happy endings from. And the same time they're bragging about it, they're completely belittling the women. They're giving away personal details that would help people identify them. Like, hey, here's her name, which may not have been, it's her shop name, right? But they're describing her and then they're describing what services they got from her. So then every man that's on there, right, is going to go, oh, well, I know that, say, Rose is gonna, I know she's done this for that guy, so I'm gonna try and get that out of her too. And

• 23:45Speaker 01

  and there's men giving their unsolicited advice about, well, you know, if you, if you, if you do it properly, you won't even have to pay. You know, which is then getting into the actual rape and sexual exploitation. There were men that were admitting like, oh yeah, she didn't seem very into it. Or even she had bruises on her.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  But they didn't care. So I'm seeing this over and over. And there was, you know, some of the men were reluctant to give advice to new users.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  So I had to like be on the, on the forum for a while, which was mentally very difficult. Just reading these disgusting things day in and day out. And, um, you know, just making small talk really to try to create some sort of connection.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Way in there.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, not, not, you know, not pretending I'm doing the things they are, but like, oh, hey, boys, I'm, I'm just in Brisbane for work at the moment, used to being in the Sydney area. What's good in,

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  What's good in Brisbane, you know? What should I check out on the south, north side or the south side, you know, those kinds of things? And some of them just couldn't help themselves. They just love to give advice. So they were giving me all the advice on where to go.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  How many people are we talking? Like, how many are online?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  There'd have to be thousands.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Jesus.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Like, because it was separated too via what parts of Australia. So I was only interacting in the Brisbane part of the forum.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  So they're giving the advice if you go to this one, ask for this girl, yeah?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or they just say, I saw this girl, you know, I'd rate her a three for looks, but tapped her and left, you know? Like, just the most misogynistic vile things. It just had no respect. And like I said, if they saw signs of bruising, they'd even mention that they saw bruising or she wasn't into it. Didn't, didn't put much effort in, but they got what they were there for and they left. And it's like.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Anyone call them out on this online chat or they're all down the same rabbit hole?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Very occasionally. They'd be like, say, one person I'd see who was like, hey, you should call that in.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Like, they could be being trafficked. But most people like, whatever, they know what they're, like literally what they would say. And I've got many of these quotes in my book, like the exact conversations that were had, but it was like, they know what they're there for. They're all money hungry whores. They're, they're just over here to make money. They know what this is about. It's like, no, like some of them may have gone into the parlors knowing that those services might be requested.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Others might not, you know, many were forced. There were venues I went to that had been raided in the past. Or one of them was raided after I'd finished my investigations. And, you know, I submitted all of this evidence to the police. They didn't really seem to care.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  Tell us about that. So you you gathered photos, details of.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  I had screenshots of all these disgusting conversations online with the exact names of the venues, the girls, what was being provided, the money that was being exchanged, bruising, abuse allegations. And, you know, the detective that I spoke to said, ah, well, there's two things. One was, oh, we don't help the victims, we just deport them back home. And I was like, great, great. That's because that's really helping the situation. The demand is not going to be like, the demand is going to keep growing. Supply is going to keep growing. Deporting the victims and giving them no support isn't going to stop the industry.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  The police, and I I'm not really familiar with the the industry. I I the council enforces certain aspects of it, the police get involved. If the police did get involved and found out that this massage parlor was acting as an illegal brothel, are the the girls working their charge? Is that what they deported for? Is that.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  At that time, there were girls that had been charged.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  As if they were perpetrators of illegal crimes. This was prior to the decriminalization of sex work in Queensland.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  So I can't speak to what might happen now.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  Now.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  But I was told straight up from the detective, oh, yeah, we don't help them, we just deport them. And then I was seeing instances where girls were being charged for soliciting sex when they were in a venue where they were being trafficked or sexually exploited.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And then the other thing that was said to me when I handed over this big wad of evidence, which was all the screenshots and breakdowns of every venue I'd been to and what I'd seen there, and the links, I even had like the URL links printed out. And I was told, oh, I'm really glad you put the links in because we're not. We're not able to access this content.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Which to me doesn't make sense. I'm like, I'm sure you can access it, but they're like, I'm glad you put the URLs in there. Like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I paying my own money doing this on my nights where I could be resting, spending time with my husband and nobody's paying me to do any of this investigation?

• 28:41Speaker 00

  And, and you, you would have thought, were you naive or did you have a sense that you're going to be pushing against a, a system?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  I was pretty naive at that time. I thought at least we'll do something.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  This brief of evidence I've gotten, oh, thank you. You've done all our work and we'll, we'll keep you informed. This is fantastic. But it didn't play out that way.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  No. And like I said, I did see that one of those venues was raided after I'd finished my investigations. And I have no idea if what I submitted had anything to do with that. I was just glad when I saw that it, it had been shut down. I don't know if it's reopened again now because that's the problem is that they just keep popping back up either in the same venue or somewhere else. But in that particular one, they did find that the girls were being financially and sexually exploited by the female mama son there.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  And the words were, she was an extremely cruel boss who exploited these women. But to the outside, and again, coming back to what you said earlier about the attitudes of, of some men, it's like, oh, they know what they're there for. They're getting their bags. So whatever. They're just as bad as us. Like they're, they're exploiting us for our money.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  And it's like, here's just one venue where we have evidence that the, the women in there who I saw in tiny little mini dresses and mini skirts and high heels were being enslaved.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  They didn't know what they were going to be asked to do and they were being forced into trafficking for the men in that area.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  And, and I naive here, but sometimes they'd have controls of their passports and all sorts of stuff like that. Like it's really, we're, we're saying, well, everyone's got a choice, but it, it's not necessarily the way.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  And it's the same things that we see, the same patterns we see in. Everyday, like I sort of say, everyday relationships where coercive control is a factor, you know, financial control is wielded.

• 30:34Speaker 00

  That's the thread that I picked up from your upbringing to where you where you are now.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  So passports can be passports are often taken.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, how are they going to get home, right?

• 30:47Speaker 00

  And would it be a situation also like they've offered, um, okay, we'll pay for your flight over here. But you owe us the flight costs three thousand dollars and you've only and we're putting up your, we're paying for your accommodation. You owe us ten thousand dollars and you've got to keep working.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  So that's called debt bondage and that's really common in human trafficking. And it's exactly what you said, will you, you can leave, but first you owe us all of this for bringing you over here. Costs of like your living, often these women might be living on the same premises too, which is why sometimes in the situation with my friend and I, we didn't see anyone leave. So that was part of my evidence was maybe they are living on sites and they're just living and working from there twenty four seven. That's a big part of it.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Um, tell us some of the personal stories of the girls that you got to meet in there and what their circumstances were. And did they manage to get away from uh from that industry?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  So one of the main women who I talk about in my book, I call her Chelsea. And she's the one I met in the very first venue.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  And so there was a night where we got to know each other a bit. And after that very first meeting, I'd said to like that very first session, I'd said to her, hey, if you ever have any questions while you're here in Australia about laws, about situations like that, when you explained where the man just got naked and was sexually harassing you, you can message me, like if you have any questions, because here's the thing too, like regardless of whether these women um speak fairly fluent English or not, they're still not like you're, no one's familiar with all of the laws of a country if they've never lived there. And so I'd said, like, you can reach out to me about anything if you have any questions. And we stayed in touch and while she was working in the parlors,

• 32:37Speaker 01

  yeah, we would, we would stay in touch and she'd chat with me. And one night I said, hey, do you wanna catch up? And she's like, yeah, I'm working over this side of Brisbane today in this, this particular venue. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Well, I know you're, I know you're a good massager. So how about I come in and I'll, I'll book a massage and then we can go hang out afterwards. And um, she was like, yeah, that sounds good. And while I was there in this venue where, um, it was like in a strip of shops where there's nothing else open at that time of night on a, on a, you know, kind of a main road, not a highway or anything. But there's no reason for anyone to be around there because everything in the area is shut. And it was just Chelsea and one other young woman in the shop.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  And when I went in, there was um, a man who was in with the one other lady. And he was having his massage, whatever. And Chelsea and I were just chatting away. And then we hear this noise from like the next particle, like behind the curtain. And this man goes, he was obviously drunk and he was like, oh, who's that girl in the other room? He's like, who is she? I wanna talk to her. And it sounds ridiculous now. And I've had people say, oh, you make up these stories, like you use A I to make, you use A I to make up these stories. And I, first of all, my book was written before anyone was, any of us were using A I.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  You're ahead of it.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Secondly, if you have, if you think it sounds cringe or unbelievable, well, that's how cringe these men are, you know? So he's yelling out, slurring, oh, that girl sounds so sexy. I wanna talk to her. And um, my friend just like zips up, like she just shuts up. And we sit there like, what is this happening? And then she's like, is, is he talking about me? And I was like, I, I think he is, like he must be. So we get really quiet and we're just, she's like, just got her hand resting on my back and we're both just laying there frozen, like, what's going on? Cause we're three petite women in like a store with one drunk man.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  And he just keeps going. And anytime he hears her voice, he starts again, like, oh, she sounds so sexy. Who is she? I want that woman. I want that girl. And we're, we're starting to get really scared because we're like, what could this guy be capable of? Like, is he just some bumbling idiot? Or could he get violent? And thankfully, the woman in the next room managed to placate him and she would, you know, she just, she just giggled and like, you know, used her charm to calm him down, thankfully. But then Chelsea and I had to just hide in that room, which wasn't a room with a proper door. It just had a curtain around it.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  We just had to hide there, literally, until he left. Because I said to her, like, do you, like, how do you feel about going out right now? And she's like, I, I don't wanna go out there.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Like, I don't wanna see him. So we waited until we knew he was gone. And then we came out and then I was like, right, okay. I'm gonna bring the car up and I'll take you home. We'll go and do dinner or something. And again, I was just like, these women are in such vulnerable situations. There's no body, there, there's no security there.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  There's not even like a front receptionist or something like you would see in a legitimate business. And it's seven o'clock, eight o'clock at night. There's no one around. What would they have done if that man got violent? Where would they have gone? Who would they have caught?

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  You know, it's such a vulnerable situation. And I was scared in that situation. I didn't know what to do. I was like, could I, could I help in any way if I needed to? I don't feel confident to do that. So again, it's just, people just have no idea what's happening inside of these venues. And I just completely reject the notion that, you know, they're all just there to make their bag and they know what they're in for. And it's all, there's, there's no power dynamics at play and they're, they're all consenting adults. And people have just got no idea until they're there.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Simplistic view of it, isn't it? That's, it's a lot more complicated than that. How did Chelsea play out? How did it?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  So we stayed in touch for quite a while after that. And after that, she got out of the parlors because she was here to travel Australia. And as part of that, you've got to do your, I think it's like eighty eight days of farm work.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  To get, say, an extra year.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  Rural areas.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, of travel. Now, there's a whole lot that's been exposed in terms of exploitation on farm. Um, labor exploitation, financial and sexual exploitation. She ended up on this farm out west of Brisbane and so we kept in touch and I put her in contact with a woman out there who was working with international travelers and helping them with connections and making sure they weren't being exploited on farms. So I I set that up. But then one day Chelsea messages me and she's like, so today I worked from, oh, was it like five, like let's just say like five A M. to five P M. picking tomatoes. And she's like, and I made thirty six dollars before tax. And I was like, what?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  And I was like, how many baskets? Like, what what's going on? And she's like, yeah, so I filled. She say like, it took me an hour to fill one basket. And I'm like, what? Because I'm thinking of those like little trendy rat in baskets, you know? You put your little sprigs of rosemary in and your your stuff in the markets. And then she sent me a photo and it was like this plastic tub like up to here, like up to the table, filled with tiny cherry tomatoes. And she was like, working in, like it was like high thirty degrees or forty degrees. She's out there all day, twelve hours, makes thirty six bucks. And I was like, that, that is exploitation. And I'm like, is this the same venue that like asked you to do X, Y, Z the other day? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like,

• 38:33Speaker 01

  yeah, I would, if I were you, I would have a chat to like M, the lady that I connected you with. Um, because that's very exploitative. And I just thought, again, like if she was here, like if we hadn't had that chance meeting and and been able to forge a connection and friendship, who would she have talked to about this stuff?

• 38:53Speaker 00

  And she wouldn't, and she wouldn't know, and she's vulnerable.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And she wasn't allowed to have a break too. She wasn't allowed to go to the toilet. Um, one of her friends there asked for a break because she was having a migraine and thought she was going to faint.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Under the sun, picking all day, not allowed to stop and drink water or go to the toilet. And yeah, she got in trouble for that. So it's happening in so many different industries, like we've heard of it, this, the eighty eight day visa. We've heard stories in the news over the past few years of.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  People who had their passports taken from them um and told, hey, we can sign off on your passport, but first you have to, you have to do these sexual acts for me.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  Right, okay, so, yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  That was in an investigation years ago that I mentioned in my book um into what was happening with these eighty day visas. Um, people that have, yeah, experienced terrible things in different meat farm, like meat factories. It just happens in so many different areas and people either aren't aware. The people that are in these situations, like Chelsea, they may not have anyone to speak to about it. So they don't know what rights they've got or what rights they can access.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  Are you disappointed with the spotlight you put on? Yeah, we talk about the uh the massage parlors, exploitation out at the rural areas.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Are you disappointed that there's like, it's almost like this should be an expose, look what I've exposed and then all the law enforcement, every bit of power comes down. But sadly, that's not what actually happens, is it?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  There's no overly outraged media, there's no.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  We've seen like a couple of exposes.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Every couple of years, like there was a big one, I think it was sixty minutes a couple of years ago. And they did a great expose on what was happening with sex trafficking within Australia and within these parlors and motels and things like that. But it's not really, like, no one ever really talks about it very regularly. And it took me, so I was doing those investigations for about eighteen months between, say, twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  And there was one investigative journalist who said he was interested. And it took months and months and finally he set up a meeting and then he said, oh, so would you go on camera and and talk about these things? And he's like, we'll give anonymity to.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  That's always a difficult word. I always avoid that.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  I always fuck it up. He's like, we'll give that to any of the girls that you can bring forward. And he's like, but would you speak on camera? And I said, to be honest, like, I'm a little bit wary of doing that because this is organised crime.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  And my, my own mother is very worried about the work I've been doing. And I've had a lot of people telling me to be very careful. Um, I don't know whether I've been filmed on camera going into these venues. Um, the things I've seen are pretty scary enough that, um, I would be a bit scared. So like, can't you just blur me out or darken me out like the girls? And he was like, oh, no, like, we'd need you to be on camera. And I was like, I don't feel very safe about that. And I don't feel like that's very fair. I've watched enough documentaries and things to know that you could easily give me, you know, privacy within this. And so it didn't go anywhere. And I was really, really upset about that.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  I reached out to journalists, I reached out to council, nobody cared, nobody did anything. And then it wasn't until after my book came out, that I had a couple of editors who said yes to talking about the things I'd exposed. Um, you know, I wrote a piece for Mama Mia. I've written a couple of pieces for news.com.au on human trafficking over the years. But generally, yeah, nobody was interested.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  And I just, I was like, to this day, I still don't really know if anybody, like, I'm sure there, there might be, but I don't personally know of anybody who's been investigating illegal brothels and pals in Australia, other than the journalists who, for example, did that spotlight or that, um, that feature a couple of years ago on sixty minutes. But I, I knew of nobody at the time. There's nobody that could really give me much advice. And nobody seemed to really care about it. So it was very much what you said, that it's happening everywhere. It's happening in plain sight. It's not even hidden.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  And nobody seems to care. And there was a journalist I spoke to earlier this year, and like obviously won't say anything that would identify him or, but he was, he cared. And he wrote to me and said, hey, so I've been investigating X, Y, Z, and I know you haven't had much support in the past. So I totally understand if you tell me basically to bug her off, if you don't want to talk to me. And I was like, no, not at all. Like, I'm happy to talk. I'm actually really happy that you're interested in this. But he was talking to me about what was happening in that particular town he was in and the problems. And that essentially council are saying they have very little ability to do anything. And since the decriminalization of the sex industry, which, you know, I won't go into

• 44:07Speaker 01

  whether, whether that's good or bad or whatever, that's a whole other conversation. But he was saying since that, police task forces had pretty much disbanded going into these types of places to check up on them. And it's now against the law for police to say, masquerade as a client and go in and sort of see what's happening. So it's very tricky. And there's still, I mean, if there's anything that can come out of this conversation, I would love for our state government and federal governments to work together to create something that works, like something that helps to stop these businesses from just popping straight

• 44:48Speaker 01

  back up when they get closed in a new area, or just going and doing, at that time, what I was told from the prostitution licensing authority back then, was that they could basically get a license to open these businesses within a weekend. Yeah. And then they'd open it up. And if they got closed down, it'd just pop up again. Same name, new location or different name, just pop back up. So I don't know what the situations are now. But I always encourage people like pay attention to what's around you. If you see this, you know, if you if you suspect sexual exploitation or human trafficking, like report it via, uh, you know, I think it's the AFP's online human trafficking

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  report, you can do that anonymously. Um, if you suspect something but you're unsure, like you can always call Police Link. There's many times I've seen all different kinds of things and thought it seems like it might be a little bit suspicious, but I don't really have enough information yet, but I'm still going to call it into Police Link.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  So that if other people have called in things, they can create a case around this. But I would love for our governments to find the solution to how to stop these parlors from just getting a weekend licence certification opening and just continuing to reopen every time they get closed down. We we need some way that people can keep an eye on these places and find out the ones that are legitimate from the ones that are not.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  And ensure that we're not just leaving women in these vulnerable situations where they could be victims of human trafficking, debt bondage, they could be being anywhere on the spectrum from just from being sexually harassed to being raped.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  It's just not good enough that they're everywhere we look. You know, we we went on a little family weekend away recently and we were in an area and went to a restaurant and there was one of these parlors underneath. And from things we saw in the restaurant, I was like, this seems really dodgy and I actually wonder if the restaurant and the

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Oh, working.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  parlor are connected and there there's fraud going on there or maybe like funds are slipping through one from the other. And I looked it up, the phone number for the parlor immediately brought up the the forums, it brought up the men talking about, yeah, I got this from.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Back to your old gang.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  I got I got money, I got I got this for this much money. And I was like,

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  It's so obvious. Why, why am I the only one that seems to?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  No, I I'm I'm hearing you and I'm I'm sitting here and thinking, okay, how how do you approach it? The legal massage parlors putting complaints against them because potentially taking their business away. I suppose the legal brothels would be looking at it too. That potentially taking

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  business away. You've got the council with zoning restrictions, you've got the police and yeah, I can understand. Well,

• 47:45Speaker 01

  It's very complex.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  I can't understand because people might say it's a victimless crime, but as you'll point it out. Maybe, maybe the way to put a dent in the industry or slow it down more so than the legislation is making people aware that hold it, this is not, yeah, this is not a victimless situation. These, there's some terrible stories and maybe telling the stories of the women that have been caught up in that. Might make people that are going to use those services think twice about it and go, well, hold it, no. And

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is, the men are like, as long as the, like, the supply is always going to be there to meet the demand. And unfortunately, unless we bring in legislation like, say, the Nordic model that it started in, in places like Sweden and

• 48:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, what's that?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  So the Nordic model is a part decriminalisation, part criminalisation. So the people who are working, whether it's male or female or, you know, transgender, they are not criminalised.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  But the men, I'm going to say men because it's, it's going to be extremely rare for a woman to be there to purchase

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  someone. The purchaser is criminalised.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Well, that would, that would, that would change the dynamics.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then they're not criminalising the, the person that's in that situation. And they also provide them with other options should they wish to access them.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  So assistance with child, you know, like child mining, child assistance, childcare assistance. All the areas that keep women trapped, which is poverty, assistance with children. Um, a lack of any other viable option is really the reason why so many women stay in the industry.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Cause they don't have other viable choices. And if you are choosing between homelessness or able to feed your children.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Then you're going to do whatever that takes. So there's a lot, there are a lot of people that don't want, like, they don't like the Nordic model, but that's the only, one of the only solutions I see.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  What's the argument against the Nordic model?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I haven't really seen any good ones.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  It's just like, it's just like, I'll let them do what they want and we shouldn't be criminalising men for this.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  You know, there may be people within the sex industry who are worried about that because they're like, well, then you're taking away my clientele, right? I'm not going to be able to provide the service. But what I like about the Nordic model is that they're not just taking, they're not just criminalising the purchases and taking away the demand.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  By, you know, fining them or they face jail time. But they're also providing the supports that most often women are lacking.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  That would allow them to make a full body choice as to whether they leave the sex industry.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  If they want to stay, that's fine. But they're like, if you would like to do something else, we will support you.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  With what you need to try and fulfil that. And that's one of the only things that I would see working here because it does disincentivise men. Like I've read, I've read the quotes from men who've been arrested and now this is so unfair. And you know, like, my, please, my wife's gonna find out. So you didn't care about that until you got caught.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, a pretty failed argument if they're trying to.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  This is so unfair. Look, I, I think we're never going to stamp out the sex industry, so that, that's a starting point. And, you know, they say it's the world's oldest profession. I don't know if that's the case, but you hear that.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  And I should just say quickly that there are lots of people within the sex industry who are upset about these illegal parlors.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  And they, they don't want to see people being trafficked and they do want to see a change there.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think if, if we accept there will be a sex industry.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  The regulations can put in the protection so people aren't exploited.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  And, yeah, the world should be about free choice, but regulations might be able to protect that if people are choosing to work in this industry, they're protected in, in every one of their rights, their, their safety, their, their, their welfare, the pay, everything. So that they're, they're not exploited. It's a complex, a complex issue. You don't take on the small things, do you?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  No, I had that said to me by an old boss. She was like, why do you always pick the serious topics? And I'm like, um, because they're interesting?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Sorry, I don't want to do something on fashion.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Well, look, I, I think just the fact that you're raising it, I think that's, that's important. Because it, it's not talked about and it, it's sort of when you, when you point out and I'm thinking, oh yeah, that flashing red light or you drive through there and you discover that stopped a set of traffic lights and looked, looked up. But um, yeah, it's, I, I hope people listening to it understand that, and I, I think the important thing is it's not a victimless crime. And there's people whose lives have been, uh, they've been exploited in the most terrible, terrible ways. And yeah, the old supply and demand, if there's no demand, the, the drives up the supply. I'm looking at some other things that you're in, involved in survivor advocacy, so domestic and sexual violence.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  What sort of work are you doing in, in that regards?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've worked, um, I've done a lot of different things over the last 10 years, but I've worked as a, a book coach, um, helping a lot of female survivors of, of different traumas to, to write their stories and to share that with the world and break the silence. And then I also found it.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Sorry, could I just, I don't mean to interrupt, but do you think that, that helps them like write their stories and, and talk about it? Like that's a, something that's worthwhile doing?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've seen the most tremendous breakthroughs through the power of writing. And I've seen people who have carried shame and trauma for so long that, you know, maybe they've chipped away at it with their psychologist. And I'm, I will always be, you know, a huge supporter of getting, you know, good psychological support. But they've worked through a certain amount of that, but it's still living within them, that shame is still there. And it's not until we go through the, the process, whether they're writing a full book or whether it's women in workshops that I've run for different domestic and sexual violence services, where I'm helping them to begin the process of writing their story. It's not until they do that, that they actually go, wow, I didn't realise how far I'd come.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't realise that I'm not still here, like I'm actually here. And maybe I want to be up here, but I'm not where I used to be.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And I've seen, yeah, women just have the most, and men, like I've worked with a lot of men as well, male survivors of different traumas. And I've seen all of them have the most amazing breakthroughs. And so I did that for. Pretty solidly for about eight years and then decided to have a break in twenty twenty four because I was carrying a lot of vicarious trauma from all of the stories that I've been carrying for everybody else.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Surprise, surprise.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yes, surprise, surprise. And then the last couple of years I've been doing mostly speaking.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  And so speaking in schools and workplaces and and running my Red Flags one O one program, which really focuses on the the most common warning signs of emotional abuse.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Tell us about that, the the fact that you're in in the schools talking about that. Because I what I saw of it, I think that's a great idea.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we focus on the three most common red flags of coercive control and emotional abuse, because if we can learn how to spot those as early as possible. If I think back to my like twenty year old version of myself, who was in that relationship with that guy and, you know, I want people to spot those warning signs that he exhibited before they get to their rock bottom like I did. Like, I don't want them to have to experience the things I did. So learning to spot them and then equally as important, learning how to set boundaries.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  So what does it look like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like to set boundaries?

• 55:36Speaker 00

  If I if you're a young girl and the young bloke comes up and says, I love you, you're my soulmate, I want to be with you forever, and if you left me, I'd just die.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  A couple of red flags in there.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, um, dude, you might want to go speak to a counselor about that.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Don't walk away going, oh, wow.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  I've got to fix him, which like, to be honest, a lot of us, if we're very empathetic people, we want to help others, right?

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  And it doesn't mean you have to be like, huh, go get like, go like, go away, go get your own help. It's like, well, I can't help you with that, but you should go talk to someone about that.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  If you got what you're delivering with the Red Flags one O one in the schools, if if you got delivered that, would that made you sort of recalibrate and rethink your your choices that you made?

• 56:24Speaker 01

  I would have gone, whoa, that that's what my dad does, like, my dad gaslights, my dad, you know, has narcissistic tendencies. The things he says and does are actually emotional abuse. I didn't know that.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Um, I didn't think it was that bad. And the whole reason I ended up with in all of those really traumatic situations after he died was because I'd spent so many years saying, oh, I'll never choose someone like my dad. Like, I'll never choose someone that's physically abusive and, you know, does these really scary things. But I wasn't looking for all of the, um, I, I wasn't, I didn't know what to look for when it came to all of the emotional abuse. I didn't know what gaslighting was. So then, yeah, I second guessed myself all the time instead of listening to my own intuition. Um, and mostly I was just afraid to ever say no.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Because I was terrified of hurting people's feelings and, and being seen as the bad guy. So I'd spent so many years being belittled by my dad and thinking like I'm a terrible worthless person. So I only ever wanted to uplift and make others feel good.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  That led to that. And in schools, I have to say, I've had a lot of young men, like a lot of boys come up to me, really positive questions saying, hey, this is happening. Would this actually be coercive control? Or is this, um, just bullying? Like, what, what is this? And yeah, I had a beautiful young man come up to me one day and share about his mum's story and what was going on with her. And I said to him, you're carrying a lot. Like, it's really beautiful that you care so much, but that's a lot for you to carry. And if you can, you know, if you can give your mum that nudge to get support, that's great. But you, you really deserve to have support too. Like, is there anyone you can talk to? Or have you talked to the school councillor?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  There's a lot of young men with really good questions. You always get that odd ball group where there's, you know, the guys, their chest puffed out and they've got their arms crossed and they're laughing.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Like I'm sitting now.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Gary.

• 58:27Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  But, uh, yeah, well, I, I was gonna say, like, it, I can imagine girls, you're getting a lot from it, but the fact that the young boys are all, teenage boys are also buying into it. Is there warning signs and, and just sort of flip it, is there a warning sign for, for boys? Can they be manipulated by the girls?

• 58:47Speaker 01

  So in my programme, I actually share a story from a young man in the UK called Alex Skill. And he is a survivor of really severe coercive control. His female partner actually did go to jail, um, for a number of years. But like, you know, just like the stories of so many women, he's started the same. Like it started with really small things, like her trying to control the clothes he wore, telling him how she liked him to do his hair.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  And I said to somebody recently, look, it's, it's fine for everyone to have their personal tastes. And you might have a partner that's like, hey, I actually really love when your hair, you do your hair like this, or your hair looks like this.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Do you have to keep bringing up that? It makes me sad, but go on.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Or we could get you like some nice wigs, you know.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  You promise you wouldn't laugh?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  So I'm like, there's a difference between someone that's just saying, hey, like, I really love it when you wear blue, cause makes your eyes pop or something like that. So I'm giving you a compliment now, cause you've got a blue shirt on.

• 59:40Speaker 00

  You attack my hair, the way I sit, at least you like my shirt. Okay.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yep, I'm back on track. So I'm like, there's a difference between that and them trying to control the way that you do everything, control what, exactly what you wear, who you spend time with. They, they, they've got to know, there's a difference between caring and wanting to know when your partner gets safely to wherever they're going and constantly sending messages, where are you? Haven't heard from you. Answer. What are you doing? I need you home.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that, that, that can work, whether it's a boy to girl or girl to boy or what, whatever, that, that sort of controlling.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  And I share those stories, like Alex's of what he went through and how it escalated. And by the time they had children, just like so many women, he felt trapped.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  He didn't want to leave his kids in that situation. So he stayed. You know, he ended up being really, really badly physically attacked.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I'm quite lucky to be alive. But when I share that story, you know, there's always those, those boys that had their arms crossed and they're a bit defensive because they're probably thinking, oh, that never happened to me, or what a sissy or something, you know? Like what a cuck or whatever they say now, but um.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  But like.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  But it still resonates. They're like.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  And that coercive control, I've seen it where, yeah, you see the bloke that's all of a sudden concerned. I, I better, better recall she's asked where I am and, and all that. So it can work backwards.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  I've seen that in my own life, like someone close to me who had a complete breakdown and was having panic attacks by the end of that relationship because of how much his female partner controlled him.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  And he was just a shell. Like he couldn't even speak to her. Face to face when she was going off at him, like he'd have to go to another room and text because he was like having a panic attack.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  And she'd isolated him from all his friends.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  That that's a common thing, isn't it? The is isolation, that's a a warning sign to.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, oh, you're, they're changing you, like, and I don't like who you are when you're with them. And fair enough, if it's an accurate comment.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  But in knowing that particular person, it wasn't.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  So, okay, you you've got that happening at the schools. Project Karma, what's uh not what's happening at the school? Project Karma.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Project Karma is another anti-trafficking organisation, not for profit, that I have supported for a number of years. And it's run by Glenn Hully. He's an ex-Victorian police officer and private investigator. And I came across his work maybe around twenty sixteen, when he reached out to share the work he was doing overseas, as well as in Australia. Um but what I like about the model they have is that it's centred around empowering the communities they're in.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  So a lot of the criticisms of anti-trafficking organisations is that they can have a bit of that white savior complex.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  They come in and just say, oh, we know how to do this, do it this way. But um the Project Karma Sentinel model is about empowering, like, let's just say it was in in one of the areas in Indonesia, they would be empowering the local police, the local communities, and I think maybe government as well, but like all of those local communities are empowered to know what the warning signs are if a child is being harmed or exploited. And how does the community come together to firstly rescue and get their child out of that situation? But also get justice for that victim.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  With getting justice against the perpetrator. Um and so I I've been like a huge supporter of their work and they've created, like, they've just had amazing success in different countries overseas. They do, like, they do work here too, and their ethos is really about, you know, providing support and getting justice for victims, no matter where they are or how old they are.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  And trying to get justice against perpetrators. And they've, Glenn's done a really great job of helping police with.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Certain like say Australian perpetrators who've gone overseas

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  To try to evade justice and and actually finding where they are and.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  Oh, shout out shout out to Glenn, a project.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Shout out to Glenn, yeah.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Karma. Um, and a global, you're also global ambassador, uh, human trafficking ambassador. Work with investigators. Is that another part of part of what you do?

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Um, so in the past, yeah, I did when I was in Southeast Asia, I I think one of the stories I shared earlier was there's a a friend of mine who was living there for a long time, doing undercover stuff. So, I mean, shout out to him and all of the amazing people that do this day in and day out. Because I only spent, you know, a fraction of time there, learning about what was happening. And we we wrote a few articles together. But they're the people that are there day in and day out, trying to make a difference.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  I think we think human trafficking and slavery is that that's something from a bygone era, but that's very much not, is it?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  It may be in a different form, but the reality of it is still still the same.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  And we hear about it in, you know, with the advancements of tech.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  It's morphing and changing. But, you know, we see it even in situations like with OnlyFans or online sex work. There's, you know, sexual exploitation happens there too. There's a certain perception. And again, I'm not saying it's the whole industry or everybody's experience. But we don't know when we see somebody, somebody's public persona. We don't know what's really going on behind the scenes. Whether there was coercion there until, you know, somebody comes out and shares later on. But that's just to say that we see it happening everywhere. In Brisbane, a couple of years ago, there was a case that came out of women that were rescued from a house in south side of Brisbane. I think it was like around Carrindale area. It was quite a well to do neighbourhood.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  And the neighbours were horrified. They're like, these women have been enslaved here. Like, we didn't know, you know, it's just.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  I suppose a message, if you've got concerns that something's going on, reach out to authorities. And even if they don't react on it, it's documented now. And if more people, more people, more people reach out. How's life for you now?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 1:05:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just moved to Canberra this year. So I've been spending a lot of time in nature and yeah, working on, um, almost finished a new book. And um yeah, we'll see what we'll see what adventures come up.

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  I'm sure something will come up and I I just wanted to finish off with from from this book. I've got the heading here, Tools and Tips for Thriving After Trauma, but they're simple things, but I think we'll just quickly mention them. Uh gratitude journaling, digital detoxing, discovering true self, setting strong and unapologetic boundaries. They're they're four points you you talked about overcoming uh overcoming trauma. Are they things that have worked for you?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I could always do better at the digital detoxing, but yeah, all of those things, I mean, particularly journaling. Like a lot of people have said, oh, but I'm not a writer. And I'd say it actually has got nothing to do with that. You could even use the notepad on your phone if you wanted to, but it's just about actually actually just brain dumping everything that's going on in your head. Um and there's nights where I'll do that just so I can sleep because I've got too much swirling around.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Um but there's a lot more that I'll be going into a lot more deeply in in the new book that I'm finishing off, which really centers around, like just give like a little little tidbit, really centers around the thirteen key steps people can take to really, you know, live an an out loud unapologetic life and to heal and and speak up and and share their story with the world in a way that's safe.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Um makes an impact but is also safe because that's a really big thing for a lot of advocates is that they have that passion to share, but they may not have done the deep inner work to be firstly in a position to share.

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  And then secondly, they might not know how to safely share their story. So, you know, that can lead to situations with, you know, I hate to say it, but with some journalists or with podcasts where you might get asked something that you're not comfortable being asked, or it might be framed in a way that's not necessarily respectful and you it's really helpful if you know and you have a guide, which is why I'm writing this book, the how to safely share your story, how to put like professional but firm boundaries in place before you share your story publicly so that you can do it from a place of empowerment, not feeling like pressured to share certain things or.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  I think that's a good thing because we all have a platform now that you can get, yeah, what was thirty years ago has completely changed. Now, everyone can get on a big platform and get opinions out and share stories. But unless you've done it or gone down that path, you have no idea. Like, I'm sure you had negative things posted about you. And the first time I did, when I got into the media, I didn't care when I was in the police because people were meant to attack the police or things. But when you're working in the media, and you, oh, that's terrible. And, you know, some of the criticism was possibly right, but it still hurts.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, well, I've enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to come in today. Hope all the best for the future and maybe we get you back to talk about your next book when it comes out.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sounds great. Thank you, Gary. I really appreciate it.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  Cheers.