When the prison gates open: Tahlia Isaac Pt. 2

Being locked up in prison is hard - but often the real test comes when you're released. In part 2 of this discussion, Tahlia Isaac takes Gary inside the raw reality of life in a women's maximum-security facility: 22-hour lockdowns, mothers crying for children they can't reach, Aboriginal matriarchs ripped from their communities, and women imprisoned for nothing more than driving without a licence. Then comes the moment when the doors swing open…to no money, support, or protection. Tahlia argues that the system doesn't need fixing, it needs to be completely torn down and rebuilt, which is exactly what she’s trying to do now through her charity Project:herSELF. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes in to contact the crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Being locked up in prison is hard, but often the real test comes when you're released. It's no surprise so many end up back inside. In part two of my chat with Thalia Isaac, we dig into what happens when the prison doors finally open, why the system is failing women at the exact moment they need it most, and the work Thalia is doing through her charity called Project Herself. This is someone genuinely trying to repay her debt to society. I think it's worth having listened to what she has to say. Thalia, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  I enjoyed our part one. It was a good conversation and it's interesting to get your take on how your life sort of spiraled and the choices that you made, sometimes good ones, sometimes bad ones. We got you up to the point where shit's hit the fan. You were caught in possession of drugs, charged with commercial supply and a few other charges. You got bail, no conditions, and basically, and I think this is a terminology you might have even used, fuck it. If I'm, yeah, if I'm going to jail, I'm just, my life's going to be chaotic. You live that life, but eventually it caught up with you and you appear at court

• 2:07Speaker 00

  and you end up getting sentenced to prison. What we're going to do in this part is talk very much about how the prison system can be improved and how, in the improved in that... Sets up people to survive in society after they get out of prison. But I think to understand the prison system, it's best to hear from you what your experience was.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. You know, when we talk about like improving prison systems, ultimately the current system probably needs to be redesigned.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Rather than improved. And parts of it needs to be totally abolished and other parts need, you know, yeah. So I think we we could probably call it a redesign of our justice system. But yeah, I guess. To answer your question about what it's like to go to prison, you know, you're. When I was arrested, um I had been in prison already.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  So, um, you know, when I was arrested the first time, which is a story that I told in part one.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  After that, I spent, I probably did four or five more stints in the watchhouse. One stint in a prison for, you know, a couple of weeks.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Had a whole heap of different um bail conditions set upon me over that course of of time. You know, being excluded from the Gold Coast, I couldn't go on in there. Like I had to sign in five days a week, I was on a curfew, lots of different sort of conditions. And then the last time I was arrested, I was on bail, I had conditions, but I had skirted the conditions.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  So I wasn't signing in and there was a warrant.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Okay, so that that was a reporting conditions and okay.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  So I had to go to the police station and sign in, if people don't know what that sign in means. So go to the police station, sign in, say, I'm still here.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Sort of thing. This is me and present to a police station.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  So I'm in the Gold Coast, I'm in an apartment and, you know, I haven't slept for a while. And someone who was had a really serious warrant was also at at the Meriton. And unbeknownst to me, the cops kind of have surveillance in there. And I I come up to the apartment, the lift doors open and there's like six coppers standing at the door.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  And like, I don't have anywhere to go. There's nowhere to go. It's like, you you have to walk out.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  On that level.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  So I walked out, they arrested me and I go to the watchhouse. And I'm in the watchhouse and I knew I wasn't going to get out this time, but I was in there for two weeks and a watchhouse is hell. I'm gonna talk about it in the book about how hellish it is, but there's no natural light. The lights are on twenty four seven. It's freezing cold. Yeah. And it's the coldest I've ever been in my life and you never think you're gonna be warm again. The fo- food comes to you through a hatch in a really cold box of food with not much food in there or terrible food in there. You're sleeping on concrete with like an itchy blanket and a shower curtain that gets put between you and the itchy blanket.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  So you're not gonna get lice and you can just hear the screams like all day and all night of men and women withdrawing with mental health conditions. It's a pretty horrific kind of environment to be in. And you're almost begging to go to prison. Like it's wild. Like when you're in the watchhouse, women are going, am I on the bus to prison today? Yeah. I want, I wanna go to prison today. Like send me today. Yeah. So they put you in the prison bus and you're handcuffed, but you're also in this like very small cage and the cage is probably this big. Yeah. Just big enough for you to sit on a seat. It's wider than your shoulders.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, just wider than you, you're caft and you're sitting in there and there's no seat belts. And they transport you to prison and you can't see out. You don't know where you are. They kind of stop at other watchhouses to pick up other women. You get to prison. You haven't showered in two weeks, basically, or brushed your teeth or brushed your hair. You're feral. They get you out of the bus, put you in another cell, uncuff you. And then you wait there to be processed into the prison. Hmm. And when you're processed into the prison, they make you shower, they make you strip, uh, search you. Take note of all your body markings, your piercings, your tattoos, like write them all down. Hmm.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Your appearance, how long your hair is, et cetera, et cetera. They take everything from you. So jewellery, clothing, underwear, shoes, you have nothing, no hairband. They, you have nothing that is your own and they give you what they allow you to have. So they'll basically give you like a pair of pants, a shirt. Undies, a bra, thongs, socks and a pair of sand shoes. And they will give you a cup, a bowl, a plate and a fork and a spoon. And they give it to you in this like bag with some sheets in there for your bed. They say, like, they ask if you um wanna um buy out pack.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  So it's basically like one envelope, a writing pad, a pen, a token for the soft drink machine. And you go into debt to do that.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  It's like seventeen dollars or something. So you start from negative seventeen dollars in your prison account. And then you're like never saying no to that because a token for a soft drink when you've been coming down in the watchhouse is.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Gold.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like drugs.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Um, and so they give you that, they do this like really weird risk assessment. And like, also you have to know that when I got arrested, I'm smoking so much gear at this point. And taking Fener and like you're just plucked off the street and you are coming down hard. You know, like really hard. I spent the whole time going between just sleeping for twenty seven hours to inhaling food and going back to sleep and like feeling like absolute shit, sweaty, freezing, terrified, also just like so much shame.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And then they want you to do this risk assessment and you're at this point, you're like, just get me to a prison cell. Like, I just wanna be on the unit. I'm like, can't talk to you. I don't care to talk to you. So you you say no to everything. I don't want anything. I don't care. You try not to make yourself look like a risk because if you look like a risk, they'll put you in the safety unit.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And a safety unit's worse than a watchhouse. Um, it's isolation and it's like twenty four hour obs and really unkind place to be. And then you get movement onto the, oh, you get your ID taken and you have to wear this like little badge. That's got your picture on it, your name, your I Oms, which is your prison number. And then you have to wear it at all times, like you can't be seen without it, even though you're in. Prison blue and like, there's no mistaking you're a prisoner. Um, you still have to wear your ID badge. So then you get movement to the unit and you come into an induction unit. Um, which is a high security facility unit and it's like two stories.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And there's cells all around and everyone sees you come in and you've got like. A whole unit of eyes on you.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Intimidating.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  I had been in prison before, so was it for the second time.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I'm going.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  First time.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I'm shitting myself.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Going holy fuck, like I don't know what I'm doing. And I was lucky enough to get settled up. The first time with a woman who had done lots of time and she was quite well respected and she was really nice.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  And she just kind of said like, and we were doubled up. So I was sleeping on the floor next to the toilet and she has on the bed because she was in the cell first.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And she was just kind of telling me all the things and I'm quite adaptable. And I'm quite s- smart and my dad's also going, keep your head down and get involved in anyone's fucking business. Keep to yourself.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Gave you a bit of a.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Cause the natural fear, I, I think anyone first time in, in jail or even going back the second time. That you, uh, violence, whether it's uh, physical, sexual abuse, all, all the concerns that you have going in, into a, a prison system.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you also have seen Orange is the New Black and Wentworth.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  You know, and this hyper overzealous kind of storytelling.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Uh, from movies that are so sensationalized and you, that's all your reference point is.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And also my dad only knew a men's prison.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Like that's his reference point.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  I'm going into a different place. And so I was just, I kept to myself and I just observed and. Just was smart about it and.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Ultimately, I was probably hyper vigilant and over vigilant about how I showed up, but and whether that was right or wrong, I don't know, but um it was, you know, it it worked out well for me because I never got myself in any trouble. And there was a, I've seen a couple of fights in prison, but over and above what I experienced was like this real sense of community in there.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tell us about the the pain of a a women's prison. There's there's pain in all all prisons, but yeah, we're taken away from their kids.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Um, the the type of pain that's unique to female prisoners.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, like you said, like, mums are being taken away from their kids. You've got mums crying at night, you know. You're locked down, so then you can't call your kids.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Because there's no access to the phones or the phone line's too long, or you don't have cash to put on your phone to call your kids. Like, it's really sad. And then there's also lots of women who are really angry and they've had institutional contact since they were babies.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You know, and they hate being in prison and hate the system and hate the way that they're treated and they're constantly pushing back against it and being punished for that pushback. And there's there's that pain. And then, you know, there's women trying to self-medicate in there and and there's also a lot of joy. There's also women laughing and lifting each other up and like cooking cakes for each other or, you know, giving them a hug if they've had a really hard phone call or advocating for somebody else who can't advocate for themselves or helping new arrivals into the prison, like going, this is how this is, this, this, this, like they, there's the pain, but then there's also the like strength.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  I it's picked up in your your book and also um in the the talks that you you've done and the interviews that you've done that. You saw people, the good in people in the prison and the vulnerability of them. And also the sadness of what found them in prison. Talk, talk to us about that, the people that you came across in prison. Cause this leads into what you're doing with your, your charity and.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Why, why you feel so strongly about it. But what, what was some of the things that you just felt that it's an injustice or it's just not working or?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there was women in, in that I was, you know, in a max security facility, like in, you know, twenty two hour lockdowns into a two by four metre cell who had driven without a licence. I'm going, sorry, what? Like, so?

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  So, I don't understand. Why are you in prison? That's not a thing. Surely that's not a thing. But it was, it was, you know.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Are these people disadvantaged socio economically?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I mean, their mum's trying to get their kids to school. They've lost their licence for speeding or they've never had a licence, but they need to get their kids anywhere they need to go or they need to get to work. And so on top of being in prison for such a weird arbitrary thing, they're also removed from their kids.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  But I also see, you know, like leaders in remote communities, Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander communities, like matriarchs of those communities, being removed from those communities and put into prisons. And they ultimately, they don't even live by like the way that people in Sydney live. They're, they're living, they're living by law and they live off.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  And when, when we say law, L O R E.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  From the criminal law.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Criminal law system. Yeah. And they, they live and don't even speak English maybe.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  And so there's that, like, that's just wild to me. And women who, you know, defended themselves against violence and.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Found themselves in a prison cell because they defended themselves against violence. And then there was women who, you know, had harmed other people.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Because they've been harmed. And that's, that's often why people harm other people, because they've been harmed. And I just thought, this is so wild, like, and, and fast forward a little bit after I got into prison and, you know, I was trying to get out, I'm, I'm trying to find any way out.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  And I, and I stumble across Denise.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  The psychologist.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was an outside therapist.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  And it was crazy to me on reflection that that was by chance and not by design, that.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  To, talk us through that because it had a pivotal effect on you, didn't it?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, she was a sexual assault counselor.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And, um, you know, there's like three hundred women in the centre and she's one counselor. And she's there three days a week. And I'm, and I was so lucky to just be walking past her room when the door was open and no one was in there. That I, and I popped my head in and asked.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  That I got onto her rotation because she had a waitlist of so many people. And, um, it would have taken so long for her to get down to me. So I was so lucky, but yeah, like on reflection, I was like, how are we not offering this to every woman that comes through those doors? Because we know the statistics, and I only learnt this after I got out of prison, but I knew it from living it, is that pretty much every single woman in that prison or in our prison system is a survivor of violence in some form. So you're talking over eighty percent of women have experienced domestic and family violence.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Over, like, over, I think it's sixty six percent have experienced all three forms of violence. Child sexual abuse, domestic violence, family violence.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  That's a lot. And we're not offering therapy as a mandatory offering to women. Like, and resourcing it properly because my interaction with Denise saved my life.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  To, talk us through that.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, she helped me to realise. That how I was in the world probably wasn't actually my fault. And like got rid of a lot of shame around who I was and how I showed up. And gave me language to my feelings. And gave me language to be able to express those feelings. And also helped me regulate my nervous system so that I wasn't always seeking danger to make myself feel safe. And she just held space for me. Like she actually just let me fumble my words and say things that maybe weren't true. Or that, you know, not that I was lying to her, but like saying things that about myself that weren't true.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Or saying, you know, my assessment of a situation that probably wasn't what it was. Um but allowed me space to just say it and then held space for me.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  And then give you a a different perspective too, I suppose.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then but help me, but but just reflected it back to me so that I could. That I could see that. And I was like.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Well, I I without that, uh uh each individual is dealing with their own issues. So, you know, if you you've got a psychologist um working to help you through it, each one's going to be different. But let's just wind it back to the fact that all the women, all the large majority of the women in there have been victims in in some form. They're in there. Your example, your exposure to um the psychologist and a bit of um counselling in that regard was so beneficial for you. You think that would be the foremost thing that we're trying to achieve in prisons. And again, I get it, resources aren't unlimited and things come at a cost.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  But I keep bringing up, I'd love to have a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to spend on every person whose life is going off in the wrong direction. Per annum to keep them on the on the right direction.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and I think you're right, resources are really stretched, but they're stretched because we've like widened the net of who we send to prison.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  When they're actually not posing a direct threat to people in the community. It's just that. Governments go, not we're very tough on crime, you know, cause they've realised that by harnessing fear, the people in the community will vote for that. And we're not really that tough on crime because if we were, we would try and be preventing it from happening and really we're making the situation worse.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Well, I'm just, I'm a convert, like we're gonna get smart on crime. And I, even in the cops, I got sick of come state election, we're gonna get tough on crime. We're gonna bring in this legislation, that legislation, the media feed it as well. A crime comes and it's reported, then the government jump on board. And then all of a sudden law, law and order is a, yeah, the main platform for a state election. We've got to take a step back and work out what is the best way. And to me, okay, let's just hypothetically here. You didn't bump into your psychologist Denise on walking through the wing at that day. You could have been in there and come out, none of the issues that you had resolved.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  And you could have come out and you already set your life on fire at one stage. After spending time in prison, you could have come out and been even more inclined to go down that path.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. I think I would have probably stayed on the straight and narrow for a little bit.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Because every woman that's in prison, when she's in there is going, I'm not, I'm not going back to that. I'm not doing that. No one's in there going, yeah, I might go straight back into it. No one's saying it out loud, right? Like they, they all don't want to live that life and they all don't wanna be in prison. They're all very set on the fact that I don't wanna return to this place. So that was me too. I'm like, I don't wanna come back here. I'm not gonna do that shit again. But I would have gotten out and it would have been like by the playbook. I've got a shitty job. I hated my life. I didn't know how to regulate my nervous system. I would have sought out danger. I would have gone for whatever made me feel good about myself.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  And reverted to my old identity because that is all I had ever known as an adult in this world. I had only ever known. That identity and I wouldn't have had the capacity or the love and support to rebuild a different identity. I would have just, I would have stayed out for maybe a couple of months, maybe a year, you know, but the danger zone is two years. Over sixty percent will return within the first two years of being released. So I would have stayed out maybe for the first year, maybe not.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Like, who knows? Covid might have happened and I would have gone, ah, I don't want to do this anymore. And just like, you know, I don't know when that would have happened, but I had the tools.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  And I had the tools from the start. And so, yeah, you're right. It's a fair assessment. I didn't go back because I had

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  The ability to reflect and to know what it is I needed to do to not go back.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  It's important and you you touched on there about recidivism and yeah, if you'd mentioned sixty sixty percent. That's a, that's a failing in the system. Yeah, hopefully the the the system, it wouldn't be that high. Female prisoners, the number of females in prison now is increasing too. Um, more so than men. What what's, uh, what do you put that down to or what do you take away from that?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  There's lots of different theories about why that's happening. Ultimately, I think it's, you know, the criminalisation of lower level offending.

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Um, it's also strengthening domestic violence laws that um, attributes to more women being captured into a prison system because of those laws.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  How how how's that work?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  So, I mean, as a copper, you know, like when a DV incident occurs, the cops come out. And often at the moment, what they do is they put an order on both.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Of the people.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  And because they're not giving them the tools to actually work on their relationship.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Those people might separate for that day and they get the cross order. So they're both being charged with being domestic violence, whatever. Then they come back together again because they're in a relationship and they love each other.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Breached it.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  And the cops get caught again. They've both breached it, even if he's the aggressor or even if she's the aggressor.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  But they both get charged and often with those women who are getting the cross orders put on them, they might have a history. Because they come from that demographic.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Um. Cause the cops aren't coming out to like a privileged white woman's house.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  And a man and cross ordering them both. It's often just one.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So they they both go to prison. So that's one of the reasons. We also see a higher increase in like low level offending. We also see strengthening bail laws, which means that people aren't getting the presumption of innocence. They are just getting incarcerated.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  A lot of people in remand.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and, you know, the deepening poverty and the deepening marginalisation of certain groups of women.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Did did you see that in prison, the socio economic, um, the the type of people that were in prison? It wasn't a privileged, uh, uh, white, uh, white person?

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there's, I mean, there's plenty of people in there with privilege, you know, being committed for fraud. And, you know, other offences.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  But the majority are low socio economic.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Cohorts of people, like women from, you know, who've had years and years of institutional contact.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. I I suppose the other thing, and when we're talking about, uh, women in prison across the country, is a figure three and a half thousand, is that?

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Three eight, three thousand eight hundred.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Three thousand eight.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Thirty one. I think at the last count, yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  All right, okay.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Probably fluctuates, but that's at the last count, I think, yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Okay. For each woman in prison, given the fact that, and I I'm talking here in the general sense, quite often women are the primary carers in a family situation. So if they're taken away from the family, there's potential damage there that goes on intergenerational, like having the mum taken that taken away. Quite often the fathers, and again, I'm speaking generally here, might be absent as a carer in a family situation, but invariably it's the mother looking after children. Is that a proper assessment of it, the damage that that can be done on that basis?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we think about mums who are in prison, often, the the majority of of mums, so it's over half of the women in prison.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  That are mothers. Often the majority of those mothers, their children are being cared for by grandparents.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Or the father, if, and if their father is present, or they are being taken into care.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Or they're being looked after by themselves. So like the mum might only be doing a couple of months and she's telling the police like. No, my sister's coming to look after them and they're teenagers. So they're just looking after themselves, you know, cause she knows that child safety will get involved and they'll get taken. Or put into foster care while she's in prison and she knows once they're in there, she's never gonna get them back.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  And they're probably better off looking after themselves.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And they, uh, even if they're in foster care, they usually are looking after themselves or in resi care, you know, so. Yeah, so the impact that that has on the next generation, and it is one of the indicators of incarceration. As that um is like a criminogenic factor is that. If you have a parent that's been incarcerated, you're more often than not likely to go to prison.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, we're just creating this further impact on the next generation of young people who. Have got a mum who's been incarcerated and like, I remember like a couple of months ago, I was, I went into one of them, cause we work in the prisons. Couple of months ago, I went, went in and I sat down with a woman and she goes, oh, I'm getting, I'm getting out like next week. And I said, oh, that's amazing. And she goes, yeah. Gosh, this last month's been hard. And I said, oh, what did you do a month for? And she goes, oh, I didn't even know I was coming to prison. She's like, oh, I drove to work one day, I got pulled over by the police, my car, you know, I don't have a licence. And they, and they sent me to court and she said, and um, you know, I dropped my kids off at school and then I went to court.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And I, and I just thought I was gonna get a fine, um, and they took me to prison from court. And she goes, I didn't even tell my kids I was going to court. So she's like, her kids didn't even know she missed her daughter's graduation. She's, you know, can't, she was working in youth work, so now she's can't be a youth worker, cause she's been in prison, you won't get a blue card in Queensland. And like, for what? You know, what are we actually teaching her? What do we prefer? And now she's disqualified for two years from driving.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  That's not addressing the fact that she needs to drive to get her kids to school.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Like, we don't have a great public transport system in Townsville. You know, it's pretty shit, to be honest. It's not like Sydney. So you've got very vast areas to travel.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I'm just like, what hap- the impact that that would have had on her kids, and I'm not saying those kids are gonna go to prison, but like, they didn't even know their mum was gonna go to jail.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Well, I, I, I think in all the examples that you bring up, and I, I know there's lots of examples that, that you can bring up. Look at each case in its isolation and the impact. Like, when you, you break that down, I, I'm just, as you were talking, I'm picturing, yeah, how would you feel if you drop your kids at school and then, uh, you disappeared and you can't contact them and, uh.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you can't call them.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  You can't, like, once you're in the watch house being processed, there's no phone calls.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  And, and part of the, uh, uh, cause I wanna talk about your charity in a, in a sec, but part of the, uh, thing with prison, I don't think people understand is that the punishment is being taken away from society.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  And that's when, yeah, and I'm addressing it because I do understand people saying these things, people that don't who, a, a lot of people, most people in society don't get touched by crime or the, uh, or the justice system or prison, that's something completely foreign to them. But the punishment is being taken away from society, and I don't think we need to, uh, or, or we shouldn't underplay that. That is the punishment.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  It is.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  And as a prisoner, and I, I would always look at people that, uh, I'm, I'm seeing on their way to prison and that.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  How are you even dealing with that? You are not gonna be able to do anything you want. You're gonna be told what time to get up, where to go, what to eat.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  For the next however long it is. And that's hard.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  It is hard. You feel like you're never going to get out.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  When you go to a prison, even though you know you're gonna get out, you feel like, I'm never gonna get out of this place.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  And everything is controlled. There's no autonomy. You lose the ability, the longer you're in there, you actually lose the ability to know how to make a decision, cause you are not allowed to decide anything.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  When you eat, when you wake up, when you get to shower, when you get to use the phone.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Just even open doors.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't open a door. You don't get to, yeah, you don't get to, you don't get to decide a single thing.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, I, I get that.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  You're right, going to prison is the deprivation. Like, the deprivation of liberty is the punishment. That is what our social contract says, that's what our laws say. It's like, this is your punishment for breaking the law. We're going to remove you from the community.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  The punishment shouldn't be, you don't get dental care if you've got a toothache. You don't get cancer treatment if you've got cancer.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  You don't get to call your kids every day. You don't get to um have period products if you get your period in prison. You don't get to, you know, like, have nutritious, healthy food. You don't get to make a decision about if you wanna do this job or that job. Like, you, it's, yeah, that's why I say, it's like, we need a redesign.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Okay, we'll move on to you being released from prison. And again, this is something that uh might shock people that uh your sentence is up. You've gone through whatever process, they opened the prison doors. Where do you go there? What, what happens then? Because, you know, a- again, unless, unless you unpack it, people just assume, okay, well, you just go back and blend into society. That's not the way it actually occurs, is it?

• 31:44Speaker 01

  No, and I, like I say at the start of all of this, like, it's different for everyone. Everyone's experience is different. Some people know when they're gonna get out of prison.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  They got a parole date, they apply for parole, they have to prove they've got all of the factors like housing, um support, et cetera, et cetera, like, to get the parole, to get out into the community. So that's one experience, but for the majority of the population, we're on remand.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Not yet found guilty, not yet been to court, don't know yet when we are gonna get out. So that was my experience. And it's like, a high percentage of people, over half of people in any prison are on remand. And so your court date's a surprise, and you might get out on the court date or you might not. And there's no, um, they don't, you don't have to prove you've got somewhere to live, to go, to, to get out.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  On remand.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  If you're on remand. So you go to court and you don't, I didn't even know I was going to court. You go to court, you get sentenced and they go, you're released today, you've done your time.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Uh, well, you got a head sentence of two years, you've done almost a year. We're gonna let you out with time served, you gotta serve the rest on parole.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  That's longer than most people are supposed to serve. You usually serve a thirty year sentence before you get out. So I've served half of mine. I get out. It's like seven o'clock on a Friday night and I'm getting released from the Supreme Court watchhouse, cause that's where they hold you while you go to court. It's in Brisbane city and they, you, you're not allowed to take anything with you from prison.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  And I've got a piece of paper with my mugshot on it and they say, see you later. And they open the door and you are on the street.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  And what were you wearing and what were you?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  The, the story goes is that when I got taken from prison.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Cause I hate the watchhouse. I'm always talking about how cold it is. I'm trying to be as warm as possible. I also don't think I'm getting sentenced that day, so I'm not trying to, so they've got like secondhand clothes in the prison where you can take for court. So I'm wearing like tracksuit pants, socks, thongs, a jumper and a T-shirt and I look.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  It's a good look.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Like I'm in prison. I look like I've been in prison. And in usually, you know, you wanna wear a suit or something professional when you go to court. Just a tip for anybody. Not socks and thongs.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  And um, when they lead me back down to the cells, you have to put your hands, your hands are behind you. You gotta put your hands through the, the hole.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  And stand close to the door. And when I've stood close to the door, put my hands behind me, they've shut the door and my thong got stuck.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  And I tried to walk away, uh, like move it and it broke. And so I've got one thong, two socks, Friday night, Brisbane city. And um, thankfully, you know, my mum showed up cause my lawyer called her and she was there. And she took me home.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  But if she wasn't there, if she went, I'll see you at home.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  How am I getting there?

• 34:50Speaker 00

  And I would imagine a lot of people don't even have that support of having a, a mum that stood by you or anyone.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Who's gonna come to court, cause they're sick of it. Some, some mums are going, I'm not coming to court again. You know, you're not changing.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  On your own.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so she showed up, I went home, but it's the weekend. So there's no access to any of the services that, um, you know, like Centrelink. So I've got no cash, I've got nothing. But for everybody else, if they're getting released on a Friday night.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Where are they going?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Where's their cash? Where's their community? Where are they sleeping? Like, they don't have anything. It's, people are being released just straight back into the circumstances they were coming from. Just like when I got bail.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I've heard it too often, how how hard it is. And uh we were talking about Simon Fennick, who I had on the podcast years ago. And the work he's he's doing with, what is it?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Fruit to work.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Fruit to work.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  And I I he explained it to me for the first time. It was one of the first guests that explained how hard it was making that transition from being released from prison back into society.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  And how it doesn't prepare you for it. You're obviously of the same view and and the the things that you're doing with your charity. Tell us about that and why you find it so important and what why you're so passionate about it.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  So Project herself is a peer-led organisation.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  We support women in custody and in community. And we also do a lot of advocacy.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Um. So when I say peer-led, like all of our organisation, everyone's been in prison. We're all women who have been in prison. And, yeah, we we go back into prisons and we mentor and help women start to plan for their release and what that might look like. We also like have those conversations that I wish someone had with me when I was at first time ever in court going, this isn't going to be good. Like, you have a choice, you do have choices and you have potential and and you're you're a product of your decisions, not your circumstances. You are capable and you're excellent and you're, you know, all of the things that I wish someone had said to me.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  We say that to women, we go back into prison and we we do that and we help them practically plan for the day that they get released.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Because it's a whole heap of different things you've got to think about. You've got to think about your relationships, your identity, your community, where you're going to live, what you have to do with your kids, all of the medical things you've got to catch up on, or dental, or, um, you know, what work, what education. So there's like so many different.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Aspects of being released, but when you get out, they're all competing for your attention.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  And your organisation, you're going into prisons and explaining this to women.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a journal.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  So we go in with a journal and resources and we sit down with like groups of women and we do peer mentoring with groups of women. And we give them the journal that basically prompts them to start thinking about what it looks like to get out of prison.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Is the prison system supporting it? Obviously they're letting you back in, which would be a strange experience, I would imagine. Uh coming in and walking out, you're in pretty well.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, the first time I ever went into a prison and then could walk out again, it was surreal, like really surreal.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just seeing kind of the other side, I think, is a bit surreal and having different relationships with with people.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Who operate in the corrections system.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Um but, you know, some prisons don't give us access and others welcome us because they understand the power of of peer mentoring.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Peer mentoring and lived experience, I I think it's crucial in uh in that world. And I I know there's some resistance uh to allowing people that have been on the inside to work work in that uh that area. But I only see benefits from it.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean prisons are a place where they have a high risk profile.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  It's like risk adverse, more risk adverse than the police. Like, it's very risk adverse. And so when you're thinking about who it is they're going to let back in to have unvetted access to things. They're thinking about all the risks that come with that. So I understand, but ultimately, like, I haven't been in crime in seven years.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  You know, I haven't touched a drug, committed an offence, I don't even know anyone. I'm not even crime adjacent anymore. I'm like, we live in different suburbs.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  I'm sure that's going to become a legal term. Everyone's going to be pleading not guilty. I didn't commit the crime, I was crime adjacent, I like it. But um to, but sorry, we've jumped straight straight into it, but after you were released, you start, your family helped you. And you decided there was, this is a quote drawn from an article. When you decide not to go back into the path of, um yeah, you turn left instead of right or right instead of left, that was the the big choice. I decided I wasn't going back to this place, no matter the cost. This meant letting go of everything I held true in my life and identity. It meant humbling myself, realising I didn't know it all and I couldn't do it all without help.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  It meant letting go of all my connection to that world and starting fresh. That's what you had to do, just cut it away.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it meant cutting out people that had been in my life for decades.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  And it meant surrendering to not having everything that I wanted when I wanted it. Like, living in that world, if you want something, you just get it.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  You know, and you you have that instant gratification. Or you live a certain type of lifestyle with a certain type of image. And I and I had to really go, I'm not, my worth is not the things I have. My worth is who I am and who I am is this. And I'm not going to compromise that because this is what I wanted when I was in prison. I wanted this and so I need to work on this. And it was tempting because, you know, you're lonely.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  All I'd ever known as a twenty nine year old adult was that life. Who I was in that world, what I brang to that world. I was confident, I knew how to move, I knew the language, I knew how to, you know, I knew people, people knew me. I I I felt like that that was my entire life.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  And I'm sure you could have walked straight back into it.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And without, it picked up straight where I left off.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  No one would have batted an eyelid. But, yeah, I just, so so being anything other than that was terrifying.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  It was lonely, I knew no one, I didn't even have a conversation at a cafe. I didn't know what size clothes I wore or what even type of clothes I wanted to wear. Like, I didn't even, like, just that simple stuff. Like, what did I like to do if I wasn't running around? Being a gangster on the Gold Coast, like a dickhead.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Like, what, what did I like to do? Like, I'm almost thirty.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  How did you find joy? Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, how, who, who am I? And it's really hard. And all, all I had reference point to was that other life.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  No one had shown me and I had to figure it out for myself. So it was really challenging and I could have just, you know, kept my Facebook open, for example, but I took, turned it off and I didn't contact anyone. I didn't have.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  I didn't go and collect debts that were owed to me so I could start fresh. And I didn't like, try and go and collect any of my belongings that were on the Gold Coast. I just had to let it all go.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Okay, understood.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  But lots of people don't.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  You, uh, you studied, you travelled and you found love.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Okay, talk us through all that.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like there's a whole, like a, you know, when you get out of prison, it took a long time to feel normal again.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Um, then Covid happened and I thought I'd just started to get my life sort of pieced together and Covid happened and I just kind of went, well, what am I going to do now? So I jumped in my car and I went on a road trip and met my, my now hubby and um, we've got two beautiful babies and like live this really beautiful life. And I studied, I did a year of my master's of law and then I did my postgrad in criminology and criminal justice. And, um, you know, it's, yeah, it's been like seven years now.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  So it's been, it's been a crazy wild ride.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  And what drove you back to, uh, the charity project herself? What drove you to set that up? Is that because you, you saw the problems that were in, in prison and how difficult it was to do what you, you managed to do?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I felt like I was, I don't know, I felt like this res- sense of responsibility.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And also it was really challenging to find work, um, with my history and something that felt meaningful. And so I started kind of talking about what it might look like to, I just wanted to kind of run this post-release programme. I didn't even want to have a whole organisation. I just kind of wanted to like do it informally. And then I started to talk to people and started realising there was some real. Like wild stuff going on in the sector that that I just didn't like. It didn't sit well with me. And um the more I spoke to people, the more I realised I had to do something. And then setting up a charity was kind of just an accident, really. Like it was, you know, my good friend Carla Rains, I was talking to her when I first met her.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  And she's like, well, you need to, I don't tell everyone this, like, not everyone should have a not for profit. But you need to have a not for profit. This needs to be a legit thing. And so, you know, the more support that was galvanised behind me from different organisations, the more I realised, oh, I've got, and the more I started to say stuff and people started to pay attention, the more I realised that I have something worthy to say.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  And I have, this is kind of who I am now.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Yep. And that that's your your passion.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. Yeah. And rather than living my life, like, and there's nothing wrong with this. Like so many women wanna get out of prison and never wanna speak about that experience again. And that's not part of their identity. They fucking just wanna be totally different. And that's so valid and fine. But for me, I didn't wanna walk around with the shame that I had about being in prison.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  And so I needed to find language about how I could talk about that and how I could make other people feel comfortable if they wanted to, to talk about it. And that's the whole point of this.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Writing the book and and not feeling shame. Why did you write the book? And then it's good to put it all out there, isn't it?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's nothing that anyone can say about me that I have never said about myself.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  You know?

• 45:49Speaker 00

  About uh uh owning owning the past.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I've owned all of it.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  The poor decision making.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and I give context to it too. Like, it's not like I'm like, this is, you know, all the bad stuff I've ever done. It's like, this is the context behind it. Like, why can't we sit in the complexity of what this looks like to be human and messy and? Make mistakes and take accountability and grow and learn and change. And that's the point of of justice. That's what justice looks like. So when I wrote the book, I knew that my story wasn't the only story that mattered.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  But often I'm the only one that gets asked about it to do, talk to media or do all the things or share it. And I wanted to show that actually I'm not the exception.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  But there's lots of us that have done this exact same thing as me that have gone, we're gonna, we're, we're gonna dig in and make some changes and we are not gonna let our circumstances define who we are.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  And I wanted to platform them and show those stories. And I wanted to show women in prison that those stories exist because there's no representation inside those walls. And so how can we, how can we make sure there's like a lasting legacy of that representation? And the book was it.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Okay. And the, uh, the title of the book, She Is Me.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  What's, uh, I, I like it. What was the thought process behind that?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I think the thought process is like, whenever I look at any of the women that we work with in prison, I'm like, you're me. That's me. You're, she is me. And if we look to each other in the community as women, even as human beings, like, part of you is part of me. We have shared experiences. Where can we find our common ground? Like, where can we find how we can relate to each other rather than like, sitting on opposite polarizing ends of the spectrum and hating each other and fighting? Like, where can we find our commonality? We can find something common and we can grow from there and, and actually find real solutions to things if we can see each other's humanity.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  We're looking at corrective services and, and corrective services have been progressive enough that letting you in and, and, and doing the, doing the project. So I'm.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Some of them.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  I'm choosing the words carefully here because I don't want to get you into trouble. But you get banned.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Let, let's talk in the, in a dream situation of how would you improve the prison system? If, if you, okay, what could be done differently? Just give us an overview of how, how we could do prison differently. I take on board that avoid prison if possible. So that's the first step. You can start there. If you want.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  Diversionary programs.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  And then if it is a situation like after you set your life on fire and you said, well, I deserve to go to prison. What are the things in prison that could have made, to me, you're you're a success. You've you've come out the other end and and turned your life around. But what are the things that possibly could be improved in that that system?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we need to start by reducing the number of people.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  But I only ever talk about women because that's my experience.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  I'm a woman, I've only done time in a women's prison, so I can only speak to that. So reduce the number of women in prison for starters.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  So empty them, divert people from them as much as possible.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Drug courts, um drug diversion, Murray Court, though, oh, Corey Court. Those kinds of diversionary programs. Then the next thing we need to do is they need to be gender responsive. Strip searches need to go.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  We have body scanners and other methods of detecting contraband. That are much more effective and much less invasive and traumatizing.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Just on that, so let's break that down, the strip search. And I understand the nature of strip searches and they are, yeah, very invasive and uh confronting. Adds to the trauma. And when we're talking gender based, you're thinking, well, yeah, and we're not forgetting the men, we're just putting them aside. But for women, it might be something that's very, very confronting and re-traumatizing. Is that what you're suggesting? We've got the technology now.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  That we don't need to physically have them do the strip search.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was speaking to a prison director over in New Zealand and, cause I just visited there.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Visited the prison and she said, like, yes, we got the body scanner because it's gender responsive. And it's part of our strategy to make this prison better responsive to women's needs.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  But as a prison director, this is finding contraband more than strip searches. So it's it's an uh like it's not a question about whether we should invest in them.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  That it's more more efficient system.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yes, it doesn't traumatise women. And I'm not a fool. I know that by introducing the body scanners.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  We're gonna, w- women will get charged.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  With things because they'll think they can beat the scanners.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  But for the women who don't have contraband on them.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  We're not traumatising them. So I think gender responsive, things like that. Also, phone calls and communication with family needs to be free.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Prison visits for children need to be more trauma informed.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  The way that we set up our visits area, the way that we receive children into prisons to see their parents needs to be more trauma informed. And and New Zealand does this great. The prison that I visited, their their visits area's got a playground and couches and toys and. Um it's like excellent.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Um compared to the prison visit system I know.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  And the next thing would be that we need to, and this one's always gonna be polarising, we need to increase the rate of pay for women in custody. So currently, women are getting paid thirty eight dollars a week.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  To do a full time job and there's no minimum wage.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  And it's slave labour.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  I I was going to later on in the interview or towards the end of the interview be the naysayer, like attack some of it. Cause I I was thinking some of the things you might bring up that people are gonna be listening going, what pay to be in prison? Let's let's be the naysayer now. So I I'm the person that, you know, let's get tough on crime, let's do this. What do you mean paying people in prison? How would you respond to that?

• 52:06Speaker 01

  We have a fair work system here in Australia that protects the minimum wage of anyone that's doing any work in this country. And that's for a reason, that's to make sure that people aren't being exploited. Yep. And like you say, prison, going to prison is the punishment. You're not getting further punished while you're there. Getting paid a dollar fifty to work for a huge multinational billion dollar corporation to do the work that they would, if you weren't in prison, have to pay you the minimum wage to do is slave labour. If we, we have an anti-slavery commission in this country and we still have slavery in our prisons. Not only that, if we were to pay people, cause it's not the prison system paying them. Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  It's these billion dollar corporations that are skirting the fair work laws and not paying fair wages because the people that do their work are in prison. That if we were to pay them a fair wage, people, and we had a mandatory savings system. Yeah. People wouldn't be so reliant on social services when they got out. We would actually save money by paying people a fair wage to do a fair job while they're in prison. And so, yes, they're in prison, they shouldn't be getting benefits, et cetera, et cetera. So if they're making a minimum wage and we're, and we say we're taking some of that cash, and I don't have dollar figures, but taking some of the cash for their, for their accommodation. Hmm.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  And then we're taking some of the cash and putting in a savings account for them and then allowing them to have the rest of the cash they can ma- like buy shampoo, conditioner and food for themselves. We're actually teaching them how, like we're teaching people who have never probably earned a wage, how to do work and how to live in the community. And we're also saving cash when they get out. Isn't that the point? Isn't that the point of prison is to rehabilitate people so that they can contribute to communities? They would pay tax on the wages, just like everyone else pays tax on the wages. They don't currently pay tax on any of their wages. So, you know, like the argument is, yeah, sure, they're in prison, but they're not slaves.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  You've convinced me, but I wasn't the naysayer. I was just asking the question, but like.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  You're like, okay.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Okay, all right, I get it. Sorry, we'll pay them. Um, it makes, and I hadn't really considered that. And I'd looked at a lot of things about corrective services and, you know, what, what is crime punishment and all that. But paying a wage, you know, just as you were talking, that my mind's just ticking over. Make a couple of points in support of your position. If it's corporates earning money off people doing slave labour in prison, that's going to encourage putting more people in prison. And I, I always, I have a problem with privatization of prisons. That just to me doesn't make sense. But so the corporates, well, the more prisoners we've got, we can get them to do more work cheap. That, that's one side of it.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  But the benefits of teaching a prisoner that you get rewarded for work, because that's a big problem in, in why people often find themselves in prison. They're trying to take shortcuts to earning money, taking pride in the fact that you're earning, earning money. You're getting up, you have purpose in your life, which is what you need when you're released from prison. Also paying the taxes, well, that's, you know, adds to the, the benefits of it. But a mandatory account, so when they're released from prison, they've got some money to make a fresh start. And potentially, you know, get themselves set up with a, a place, accommodation, buy clothes, you know, update everything that they need to do when they get out of prison.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  I also saw a Macquarie Correctional Centre, which is, uh, modeling the, the, um, a different type of prison, not like the traditional prisons where prisoners are living in a dorm and.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Open, open prisons.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they're, they're, I think it's modeled on the Scandinavian models, which seem to be a lot more progressive than we are here. But you've got the prisoners working. I, I don't know about the wages, but I know about the pride that they were taking in the work that they were doing and studying. And I, I could see the benefits of it. So.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's just one extra thing. We also need more education in prison.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Education, yeah.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Less lockdowns, more resources, therapy, like there's a whole heap of stuff we need to do. They need to be redesigned.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the naysayer here again. Don't shoot the messenger.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm sorry. I got a bit, I got a bit impassioned before.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Okay, I hear you. We'll pay you. What are you, the union leader?

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Pay.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  The communication with the families, that's so important too, because one of the, in my understanding, one of the biggest indicators of people coming back into prison, if they get out of prison, there's no family structure.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  They're disconnected.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  And if you keep that connection by, I was surprised how much it costs for prisoners to stay in contact with their family. That was another thing that they did well at Macquarie Correctional Centre. The prisoners said, we've got more access, we can spend a heap of time speaking to our family.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  And having that communication. They also had it set up where the visits were more, you know, it wasn't that strict jail environment. They had murals of superheroes that kids could, you know, run around in it. So for the naysayers saying, well, why should they be able to speak to the family? And I understand it from a victim's point of view, like, because I worked homicide, so the victims might be saying, well, why should they be allowed? I can't speak to my family. My loved one's been murdered. I understand that. That's raw pain and it's hard to argue. And I, I respect their opinion and they're entitled to that opinion.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  But the majority of people in prison are not in for, for that type of, type of crime. And as we discussed, the majority of prisoners are going to be released. And to have a family to go back into, I understand, but I, I can understand the anger that would come from families of victims of homicide, that why should they be treated that way? But I draw from Ken Marslew, and I, I mention him a lot, and sadly, he's passed away. His son was murdered and he set up enough is enough. Uh, his son was murdered in horrific circumstances, shot by armed robbers whilst working in the Pizza Hut. Terribly sad case. Ken was so angry about what happened to his son,

• 58:31Speaker 00

  marched on Parliament. He wanted tougher legislation, mandatory sentence, all that with enough is enough. Over the years, and it was a progress, over the years, Ken came to the view that, oh, that it's not about getting tougher on crime, it's getting smarter on crime. And that's something that really resonated with me. And he had every right to hate every single person that's in prison, what happened to his family, but he could see the benefits of, yeah, let's try to. Rehabilitate, let's try to prepare them for coming out in the society rather than having come out and angry. And the point that Ken did make is that we, if we get smart on crime, there's less victims. So that's.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Ken's a wise man. If we, if, I mean,

• 59:16Speaker 01

  there is nothing to be taken away from victims of, you know, people who have had horrific crimes happen to them. Absolutely no way I want to take away anything from those people.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  But like you say, like about Ken, often if we sat down

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  with people who have been victims or their families have been victims of horrific crime, often after time, right, because there's anger and there's emotion. But after time, they don't want that person to get out and do it to another person's family.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  That's, that's, that's the thing if we.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and often with transformative and restorative justice, if, if they were to sit with the person who committed that offence, or if we even asked the victim's family or the victim or survivor, what do you want?

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  How do you feel? But they don't get a say.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  But if we did ask them, and I don't want to speak for all of them, but most of them would probably say, of course I don't want them to be treated like animals.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Of course I don't want them to come out and do this to somebody else.

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  That's, yeah.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  But we don't ask them. We just make decisions and we just go, this is the decision that we're making because we think this is what victims want. And there's, there's never any consultation with the families.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  So, you know, and what would, yeah, like, and Ken, and Ken's so right, like, people will get out.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  And you have every right to hate them for what they did.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And want them to suffer and, and they are suffering.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah, I, I think that's, and, and Ken understood that over the years and he did a lot of work, work in the prisons on, on that, uh, enough is enough. I interrupted you because you, you became so passionate about prisoners being paid. Um, so we, we talked, let's bring it back.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  That's the hill I want to die on today, apparently.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  We, we, back pay, where is it? We talked about, um, the, the communication, the, the education, we touched on education, pay for the work, encourage people. What, what other things?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Um, you know, therapeutic services.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  And smaller number prisons and open prisons, like these lockdowns and and, you know, restricted movement, caged environments only seeks to make people feel like they're animals.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  So, and obviously nutrition, we know, we, the thing is, Gary is like, we know what protective factors there are. So protective factors is the factors that mean you're not going to commit another offence.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  It's like, there's been studies upon studies done. We know what the protective factors are, a- and yet we totally ignore them in a prison system. We don't encourage any of the protective factors.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  What, explain the protective factors.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  So protective factors are feeling safe.

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Um, feeling loved. They are, protective factors are education, employment.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Uh, housing, like, all of the things that we know protect people from going back to crime.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  We don't encourage or foster in our prison systems, but we know what they are.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  But we know what they are.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we also know what criminogenic factors are. So like, what contributes to you being in custody.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  And it's all the things that we currently do do to people while they're in prison.

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  So it's almost like by design, we know what sends people back. And so we continue to perpetrate the same environments that are gonna send people back to prison. This blows my mind.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, if it, if it doesn't, uh, doesn't work, why are we continuing it? Cause we're gonna get the same result.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Billions and billions, over seven billion dollars a year we spend on our prison systems as a country.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  And then, then you think of the, the cost on top of that, that the crime, the police investigating the crime.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  The courts, the, uh, the whole, whole range of things, how much money. So if we can reduce crime, uh, it just makes so much sense. Just, sorry, I'm getting back on the paying, paying prisoners.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  I know in one of the, I think it's the Scandinavian countries, they also pay the prisoners, um, family. So the, the prisoner, when they get out, has a, a safe place to, uh, to come back to. Because quite often when someone's taken away, the the breadwinner, the family fall apart and that just causes more more trauma. I also support the support the families while people are in prison. So to me, that that makes sense as well.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, if we're paying people who are in custody, they can support their families on the outside, transfer money to the family on the outside. But at the moment, it goes the other way. Families have their bread when it's taken and they also having to fund their prison stay.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  And it's costing money, like people go into debt when people go to prison.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Um, what if if people want to uh see what you're doing with the charity? How how can they get uh get in touch with you?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Um, you can just go to our website, uh W W W dot project herself dot org dot A U.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  We're on Instagram, you just give us a little Google, it can can come up, yeah.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Well, uh, look, I've enjoyed the the chat, but what we're talking about here is just being smart on crime, trying to prevent crime, because if we prevent crime, there's less victims, isn't it?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  And if people take one thing out of out of context and and jump on board, no, we've got to get tougher on crime. Yeah, we can build more and more jails, we can lock more and more people up. And when those people get up, they'll get out, they'll commit more and more crime. We've got to change the system. Recidivism is too high. And I, yeah, I've learned a lot from sitting down, talking to you, reading your book and and listening to your talks. Just a different approach, so good, good on you.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  Turn turning your life around.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think people who are so angry and and like you call naysayers, they're so angry and really have this like tough on crime approach. Just do a little bit more digging.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  You know, like like you've done, go and listen to the National Press Club address or read the book. Or just like sit with yourself and.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Why are you so angry? Like, why are you so hateful or vengeful?

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  To people who have never done anything to you?

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Cause that's often like people who are so angry and tough on crime, like, what did I do to you?

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Like, what, wow, when did you get so angry at a whole cohort of people you've never met? It's just, people need to really reflect on why they are so, I guess, vengeful when it comes to people who have committed offences. And whatever the reason may be, but like, sit with that and like, learn a little bit more.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  And, and, and I think be more educated on what it is, like, and really listen rather than just like, hearing with the intent to, to spout more tough on crime stuff, you know?

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, a good, good way, a good way to finish. And well done to you too, like, turning, turning your life around and, uh, yeah, being, giving back to society and helping people. It's, uh, yeah, inspirational, so good stuff.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Thank you, I appreciate it.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  All the best for the future.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  Cheers.