‘I probably needed to go to prison’: Tahlia Isaac Pt. 1

Tahlia Isaac sat in a watch house, facing serious criminal charges, with no phone, no money, and a face beaten by her abusive partner. Her lawyer told her she was going to prison. So she set her life on fire. After using drugs recreationally as a teenager, Tahlia quickly fell into a spiral of addiction, toxic relationships, drug dealing, and serious criminal charges. But that's only half the story. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Tahlia challenges everything you think you know about who ends up in prison and why. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  What do we really know about life inside a women's prison? Beyond what we've seen on shows like Wentworth and Orange is the New Black? The answer is not much. My guest today, Thalia Isaac, lived it. She spent years behind bars and since her release, she's dedicated her life to advocating for women like her caught up in the system. Thalia taught me that women in prison often aren't who you think they are. Their stories aren't simple. I think she'll change the way you see things too.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  Thalia Isaac, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Well, I'm excited to have a chat with you because I've been reading your book and also I had a listen to the talk that you did at the National Press Gallery.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  And wow, it was impressive.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Thank you. I haven't watched it, so it makes one of us.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Okay, well, trust me, you can watch it and you're not going to be embarrassed because you never know what you say when you're standing on stage, do you?

• 1:46Speaker 01

  I had a script, but I can't remember most of it, yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think you nailed it. Did you, did you ever think when you're in the watch house waiting to be taken to prison that down the track you'd be at the National Press Gallery in Canberra, delivering a talk, which is a pretty important stage to be on?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never in my wildest dreams thought, not even before the watch house, would think that that would be my future reality. But yeah, it was pretty, pretty cool to be like the first formally incarcerated woman to take that stage and say the things that I wanted to say. And it was received so well, like it was just, I didn't, I expected to have... Some pushback, you know, when we're talking about justice and we're talking about prisons and and and there's inflated inflated like tensions around the topic.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  You know, in the media and the public perception and social media, you always kind of expect that someone's going to push back and say something.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  Well, I'd imagine if there's a vulnerability when you're basing your talk on your lived experience and and there's that pushback that comes within the community and, you know, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but, uh, well, they're in jail. But why are we concerned about someone in jail?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, or they love to say, do the crime, do the time.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  That's a, they love that one.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's a, that's a, that's a consistent one.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  It's consistent, yeah, but I didn't get any of that. And I did expect it. I think I had one person message and it wasn't really coherent. So it was, you know, just like the most loveliest message that we

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  that we received and that I received and so much support and love and kindness, which was really great.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, that's good.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  What was the message you wanted to get across? Like, you're, you're on stage, uh, you've got an audience, a powerful audience, that the messaging that you're delivering on stage can get out to a much bigger audience. What was the message you wanted to deliver?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I think the message I wanted to deliver was that the justice system in its current form is ineffective for everyone.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  And as from the perspective of a woman who's both been a victim and a perpetrator of, you know, offences.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I bring that unique perspective in terms of saying it doesn't work for victims. It doesn't work for people who are in prison.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  And they're both, they're both interrelated. They're not one or the other. And, you know, women especially are really disadvantaged after being incarcerated. And it's often very just arbitrary stuff that they are going to prison for and it's, and, and so I just wanted to shift that narrative. And, and then the other reason I, you know, the other message I wanted to get out was that women, like I wanted women in prison to see me on that stage and like see part of themselves in me or at least see that I've been in prison and that is possible and I'm not like a. I'm not like just one, like there's lots of us.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Well, I I've seen the the preparation I've done for the podcast and also speaking to you and and speaking to people that know you. That one of the things, and I think it's a testament to your character, the messaging that you're delivering, yes, it's deep and it's personal and it's about your life story and your journey. But I get the sense and and reading the book, uh, she uh, she is me and also taking the messaging from the address to the press gallery. That you're speaking for other people as well.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I always, I'm really careful, like, I don't, I don't wanna speak on behalf of, but I do, like, we get, I get told stories and, you know, like, people trust me with their narrative and with with their, you know, with their most deepest, darkest things and give me permission to share on their behalf and it brings a bigger picture. Like, it brings a broader narrative than just my own story because it is more than just me.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And I always, like, I'm really careful, like, I don't wish to speak on behalf of anybody, but if if you see yourself in me, then I think the message is kind of the same for all of us, is that this isn't working.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I I think the fact that you've turned your life around so so dramatically can give inspiration uh for for people, no matter how low. And we'll we'll talk about your low points and it got pretty uh pretty low there.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  I I think that helps people, that there is a way out. And, uh, you know, you're addicted to drugs, you're in in prison, you you can't, on the social scale, you can't sit much lower than that within your within your own mind. And it must attack your sense of self-worth and and everything else being being at that low point. So the fact that you found a way out of it, I I think is an inspirational message to a lot of peo- lot of people in there. Um, women in prison, we don't give it a lot of thought, do we?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I mean. It's weird because I live and breathe this stuff. So I'm like, I think about it all the time.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  But I, more and more I do this, the more I realise, no, we don't really think about it because if it doesn't impact us, why would we consider it?

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, you talk prisons, other than, you know, say a show like Orange is the New Black or what was it?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Wentworth.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Wentworth, yeah. They put a spotlight on women's prisons, but generally the public, when we speak prisons, you're naturally going, deferring to the males in the prison, not so much the females.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think also like the male experience or, or this like big bad place somewhere over there where bad people go.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Um, we just kind of don't even give it another thought.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, one of the messages you, you brought out and you used it quite a bit in the, in the talk, the social contract. And talked about social contract. And it made me think in your perspective on what a social contract is in the context that you're referring to. Could you, you talk to us about what you mean by social contract?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like the basis of our justice system is that in exchange for us allowing the government to enact the arms of justice, we give them full control of that and we entrust that they are going to do it in the correct way that keeps us safe. They also need to provide the foundational conditions to keep us safe. So we're talking basic human needs that allows the community to successfully execute what it looks like to live in a harmonious community. It's like food, shelter, belonging, safety, those are the fundamental things that we need to exist in a community harmoniously. And we trust the government or the people that are in power.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  And mob did it before and it was elders that we entrusted. And then we entrusted them to enact forms of justice that were both relational. So they, they both kept people accountable, but also continued this harmonious relationship within the community. So that's what I mean by the social contract. It's in its current form, in the current system we have, we entrust our governments rather than our elders.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  Okay. You're talking about the indigenous communities, how they rely on the elders to enforce the justice and keep the social control. And now.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I mean, that's where the concept originated from, yeah. And then kind of European philosophers kind of took the concept over.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And then this is what we have now as a social contract, is that we entrust our governments and it's supposed to be a two way street.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  And where do you think we're failing in the social contract?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Well, the basic conditions to exist in a community harmoniously without hurting each other are getting worse and worse. Like they're getting more strained and strained. And then our forms of justice have broken down, so much so that people commit an offence, they're not held accountable to make better choices to not do that thing again.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Like, we're not giving people the tools and the resources. Once they've committed some, like, once they've broken the social contract, so they've harmed someone or they've done something to harm that contract. We're not giving them the tools and the resources to not further do any harm. We put them in a prison and we go, don't do it again, but figure out how you're not going to do that. And we don't actually, like as a society or as governments, we don't actually go, okay, these are the things you need to do to not commit that offence again. And we're going to make sure that everyone's safe by helping you not go back to prison or not go back to committing those offences.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  It's an approach from a different way and it's a more complex approach, what you're talking about. I had a guest on the podcast, he had a difficult childhood. And he was talking about when he was at his most vulnerable, because he came from, yeah, the environment, he grew up in the family environment. It wasn't conducive to him being looked after. He was basically homeless from a very early age and passed around from family to family. And he said, I needed protection, not prosecution. Is that the type of thing? Because when he said that, it sort of opened my eyes up to it. Shit, yeah, we've got a kid that's struggling. He's sleeping on the streets at ten or eleven, not at night, ten or eleven age.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Uh because he hasn't got a safe place to go to. And then we get to the point, well, we're going to prosecute this kid and put him in in detention. Whereas what he needed was protection and guidance and direction.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's where our system's kind of broken down is that it's all about the punishment and never about the accountability and the repair after that. And we're so focused on the punishment side, it's so vengeful that we've forgotten that people get out of prison. They pretty much always, always get out of prison. Like, there's very few people who are doing the rest of their lives in there. And so isn't it upon the people who we entrust to enact the forms of justice to make sure those people don't get out and commit another offence like we see in the media time and time and time again?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  I, that's something that I have, and I I've got to put my hand up. When I was in police, I wasn't thinking about the punishment as much. I was thinking about, okay, my role as a policeman was catch the person that's committed the crime, then the justice system will sort it out. Didn't really give a lot of thought to what happens in in prison or why people get out of prison and I'm chasing them again to put them back in the prison. Didn't give it a lot of consideration. But you made the point there that most people get out of jail. I think that's what the public, the the naysayers that might disagree with the conversation we're having here saying, well, stuff it, they're in prison, they're in there for a reason, they should be punished. The reality is the people that we have in prison are going to be members of society again.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  There's very few people in in the country that have got life sentences and they're going to finish their their time in prison. So people are going to be leaving prison and integrating back into society. Surely, surely it has to be better for everyone if um they come out a better person from the prison experience than when they went in.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the argument isn't about, well, from me, the argument isn't about whether these places should exist.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I think the argument is who we send there and what we're doing with them when they're there.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  And how we support ev- the whole of community once they're released. Like, there's lots of women who are victims of. Survivors who don't wanna go to court, who don't want their perpetrator to go to jail. They don't, they don't want that. But we never consider what the victims or the survivors in any kind of scenario want.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  And then when they do go to, like when people do go to prison, they're not getting the resources and the support that they need because they're overcrowded with people who shouldn't be there.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And when I specifically talk about, you know, women, I'm talking about like driving offences.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I'm talking about shoplifting and I'm not saying that none of those things are not wrong. They, they are a breach of our social contract. But the point is, is that they're probably not punishable by incarceration.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Like if we're gonna incarcerate somebody for driving without a licence, what are we teaching them really? Like what, what are we doing to hold them accountable for doing that? And then what resources are we giving them so that they don't get out and do it again? And for women, the impacts are far beyond just the individual who's going to prison. It's the kids, it's, you know, the cousins because often women are caring across boundaries of, of family lines. They're caring for the whole community. It impacts our welfare systems, it impacts the social services sector. So when we are putting a woman in prison for a driving offence, not only does it cost our taxpayers money, but it's also costing the other women that are in there who now won't get a portion of their resources

• 14:25Speaker 01

  because we have an additional woman in there that shouldn't be there.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  So if we remove the people, the women that, you know, weren't, didn't require punishment by prison.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  We would have enough resources to ensure that the women that are in there that did do, you know, acts of violence against another person that, that have done some significant harm, they would actually get the services and support they needed to get out and not come back. And that is the point of our justice system.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Well, it, it makes sense to me and I, like I'm, this is a, a journey that I've, I've been on since I've, I've left the cops. But I, I've sat down with so many people, had the opportunity to go into maximum security prisons and, and really get a sense of, you know, what, what goes on in there. And. I I think we need to clarify because people, you know, jump in and I I dare say, naysayers will say, but some people need to be in prison. I haven't spoken to a prisoner that hasn't said, yes, there needs to be, some of these people should never be let out, like, they know when there's a bad person. But that's the minority of the people in prison.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's a very, very small minority of people who will probably never change their behaviour because of brain chemistry, because they have experienced so much harm as young people or infants, or it's just their genetic makeup. And that's a whole different conversation, right? But but that is like, less than one percent.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Less than half a percent, if I'm, if I remember correctly, like, those kinds of people are the persistent dangerous.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's society, society needs to be protected.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm not talking about, like, I've got kids.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  I live in a community.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I I also wanna feel safe, you know, but the problem is, is that the more that we put the majority in prisons, the less safe we are. Yeah, it's about how we communicate that message to them.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Sounds counterintuitive, but yeah, if if we break it down and you you delve into it deeply.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  There is logic behind what what you're saying. Let's uh, let's just talk about you for a bit.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Okay, then.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  You, where'd you grow up?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I grew up on Bryby Island.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  So it's like a small coastal community north of Brisbane.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  In Queensland.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Very beautiful up there.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  It is, yeah, it's exploded since I grew up there, but, you know, we grew up riding our bikes on the streets, not coming home till the streetlights came on and, you know, we knew everyone in our street and we had a whole, like, little gang of us that kind of hung out on the street.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Not a gang, but you know what I mean.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  A gang? What gang?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  We had BMXs.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Oh, the BMX Bandits, Jesus, they were a heavy crew. I remember when I was in Gang Squad going after them.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Wrong use of words.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. So your, your childhood, it sounds like a happy childhood.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was great.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Those form, formative years.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, we obviously experienced some hardship. My dad went to prison when I was eight. I'm gonna talk about it more in the book, but yeah, we, you know, we had those kinds of challenges. I had three brothers and mum, just mum and mum worked and it was, it was challenging for a few years. But, you know, in amongst all of that, my dad coached the football team, like my brother's football teams. My mum made my dance costumes and, you know, we had a roof over our head and food on the table. And I went to a good high school and, you know, overall, I had a pretty straightforward childhood apart from that.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Well, it, it comes through in your book that you're thankful when your, your life did go off, off track, that you had that family support. And a lot of people don't have that, uh, family support. And my assessment of it, you correct me if I'm wrong. It was that family support that actually helped save you.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, and I think too, part of it is my dad's empathy.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  For the fact that he knew.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  What you'd experienced.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Going on, yeah. And it wasn't this, um, really unknown territory.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Like, he kinda knew and they stood by me the whole time.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Okay, you, growing up, uh, you're part of the gang, the BMX crew, um, you outgrew the BMX bikes, they were a little bit small.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Let's not clip this down so that it just says gangs.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  This is, well, I didn't realise we're delving into, uh, O M C Gs. Um, I think, yeah, eighteen or whatever, and then you, you'd moved away, went to the Gold Coast, got attracted to the bright lights and lifestyle, which included social drugs and, uh, that type of scene. Is that, uh, where you started to head off in a different direction?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I moved to Brisbane City when I was eighteen and I started going to festivals and I was working at a nightclub and.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  You know, it, doing coke in the bathroom at nightclubs and taking pills at festivals and just recreationally and drinking and, you know, it was not like destructive and.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  I wasn't selling anything. It was just like, we, you know, we just kind of knew people who had them and. Never like, like never a criminality element, it was just kind of the scene in two thousand and eight. Yeah. And then, yeah, they kind of opened, I guess, my appetite for risk increased.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  And also desensitized to like other forms of drugs.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, by the time I was nineteen, I was smoking ice every day.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  While back then, actually, it was speed. And then they brought in the laws about the pseudoephedrine in, in the cold and flu tablets.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, in the.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And then they, instead of cooking it locally, they started importing ice.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And that's how we have ice epidemic instead of the speed issue.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah, it's, I, I see the effect of ice and it's such a devastating drug and spoken to a lot of people. And even when I was in, in the police, I was seeing the effects of ice could have, have on, on people. I, I understand, yeah, you're, you've moved into the city, you're enjoying the life, drugs, party scene, it all seems harmless fun. And, yeah, you take a few risks. Did you at any point see that, was there any red flags to you personally that, uh oh, this is heading in the wrong direction? Did you start to think, I'm enjoying this too much or not functioning when you, you, you weren't putting the drugs in your system?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a good question. It's hard to know because it's been such a long time.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  And like so much has happened.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  It's really hard for me to kind of know if, if I did think, oh, this isn't good.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't ever remember going, I need to stop doing this. I think for me, there was no consequence yet.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  There, I, I hadn't lost anything. Um, I also hadn't been harmed yet.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  You say you're maintaining a job on, on the surface, you're functioning.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I worked at the nightclubs that I partied at, and so it was kind of, yeah, I was fun, I was going to university.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  You know, maintaining a relationship with my family, my friends and, um, you know, coke and pills didn't really seem to impact that.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  For me at that point.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  But it escalated and when it escalated, I did start to see consequence.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And when I started to smoke speed, then. I lost friendships.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And then I lost my job.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Okay, so talk us through that, how how the friendships fell apart and and the job.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I went and I was using just the recreational drugs, broke up with my boyfriend and kind of spiraled out of control and I just stopped kind of showing up, you know, for my friends. I like would disappear for weeks on end.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Um, you know, just like partying absolutely every day and they just wanted nothing to do with me.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Because that wasn't how we were brought up.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  You're too hectic.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  It was too hectic for them. They're going this, we don't like this. So, you know, I think for me, I found a lot of value in my own self-worth in other people.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  And how they saw me and how um I was valued by them. And I was also very avoidant in conflict. So because I didn't have the language skills to articulate how I was feeling or what I was doing or why I was doing it.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  And so I would just like cut people off. Um and so I just basically cut everyone out when the speed entered my life.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Did that steer you towards the people that were into it heavier than your friends group that you left?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, because those people were gonna let me do the things and not confront me about my behaviour. So that my old friends, I cut them.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  And new friends.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  I went to. So, yeah, it was like, it was, you know, I think things happen, you know, and yeah, I don't think I ever thought, oh, this isn't good because I didn't have that reflective capacity.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  I didn't have the ability to look at myself.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I just wanted to avoid conflict. Um I was definitely avoidant, like attachment style, because I just didn't have the language. I just didn't know how to say, holy shit, I'm hurting. I don't know how to get out of this.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Okay, didn't have the capacity, put your hand up. What were you studying at uni?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Bachelor of Business.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Cause you're you're smart, well, you were smart, you're still smart. You you.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Not as smart as I used to be, there's a few brain cells missing.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Well, it always comes at a cost somewhere.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  It's a ghost.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  So you're studying, you you had, pretty much you had your life in front of you. You you were set up for heading in the in the right direction.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Employment, you said you started to become unreliable. I I I, once you've hit the sort of regular usage of speed or or ice, you don't really become a functioning uh uh function, like I've I've seen functioning, people that are using a lot of recreational drugs. But once you start to get, my observation of it is, once ice comes into play, it's only a matter of time before it spirals out of control.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and at the start, I fully spiraled.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  So like lost all all any, I could not hold a job anywhere. Um, so like clubs just stopped, like nightclubs, cause I was bartender, stopped hiring me.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  I wouldn't turn up, would wanna leave early, cause I need to go get on or I've got, you know, just like totally didn't care about that stuff. So I stopped working for a while.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  But I did pick it, pick up work again when I started to become a more functional drug user.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Because I wa- I wasn't getting high anymore. After a few years, the high's gone.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  And the staying up for days on end is gone.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  And so that party sort of thing, it becomes more of an everyday. You're using it to wake up in the morning, to feel normal during the day, and it all wears off. And so I could start to function at work. So I got, I got fairly good jobs, you know, I was working for local government at one point. I was working for banks, uh, yeah, I had, I had quite good jobs.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And I could show up every day.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  But I was also smoking ice in the toilets.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  And then it would spiral out of control and I'd lose that job.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  To me, seems like a stressful life. You you're living, you're living two lives.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  You're presenting and then uh sneaking to the toilet to do uh do some ice.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  But almost, I mean, sometimes it would get too much, but almost a thrill in the moment, like I can get away with this.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Okay, so we're we're seeing the progression, cause I just wanna, and I think this is a cautionary tale for people too, because you, there's so many people that, no, I'm fine with uh with drugs, it's not gonna get me, I I can step away from it when I need, but eventually by the time it gets hold of you, it's it's too too late.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think what the difference is, we have to look at the reasons why people are using drugs.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And for me, it was, it become, that scene become my whole identity.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  And it also was everything that I thought I was worth in this world, was who I showed up as in that scene.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  So you got respect in that scene for being the party girl and, yeah, I'm up for that.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so then that's my entire self-worth. So, you know, when I talk about my own sort of journey with drugs, it's because I was using them as a way to make in my, the inside of myself feel better. But, you know, other people can use here and there and it doesn't make their life spiral out of control. There could be an argument made that eventually it will spiral out of control, because often what you're doing is trying to medicate or numb something, or make yourself feel better in some way.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  But it's about the timeline, I think the timeline's always different.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  Right. At what point in time did you realise, hey, I've got a problem here? Was was there enough self-reflection before before it unraveled completely? Did you start to realise, hey, fuck, I'm I'm in trouble here?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Many times. And I would fold it all down, move back to my parents and try, oh, you know, I'd try and get clean. It was also back in the days before we kind of had this understanding about like, you know, your regulation of your nervous system, or like talking about things, or what the impacts of of experiences on the way that you show up in the world. Like, we didn't have that language back then. Um, I certainly didn't, and I had absolutely no inkling of it in the world around me. So I would go back to my parents, I would just try and stay off drugs.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  I would get a job, some shitty job that I fucking hated and.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  You know, it'd last, sometimes it'd last two weeks before I went, I hate this, I'm not doing this, I'm going back to that. And then other times it'd be like a month or two, yeah, and I just never, could never. Get it together, cause I didn't have the skills to know, okay, my nervous system doesn't feel like I'm safe because there's no chaos. So then I would go back. And then the experiences that I had while using just like compounded that I need to stop, like, you know, sexual assault and violence and those kinds of experiences are always terrified me and I tried to get away and I just didn't have the skills to stay away.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Was that the violence, sexual assaults and violence, was that in in relationship context?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yes, not stranger violence, um, people in the scene, guys that I knew, some women. Yeah, we, there was lots of, lots of that stuff that went on, so.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  How did you get your drugs? How did you afford it and what were you doing to?

• 28:38Speaker 01

  At the start, I just knew people who had them. And so like, there would just be one person who had lots and I hung around with guys that, you know, got caught up in like the biggest drug bust at the time. So they just had copiest amounts of drugs. It's just a free for all. So there wasn't kind of any criminality on my side going on, but I was also also always like crime adjacent, I would say, like.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Okay, that's, I, I did not commit that offence. I was crime adjacent.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  I was crime adjacent.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  That would have, that would have confused me when I'm the cops, if someone said, no, I'm not admitting to it. I was just crime adjacent. Oh, okay.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  It's a good, it's a good use of language there. Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  Defense for everyone to go in the court.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  I'm just crime adjacent. Yeah. Um, so I'm sure there's other words that I could have, like other words that you use, you know. I, I saw what was going on, but I was not a part of it. So that's how I got it in the start. And then, you know, intimate relationships, like men, my boyfriend's pretty much always a dealer. So that was how I got my drugs then. And then once I had sort of, you know, it spiraled out of control for the last time, and I experienced like the lowest kind of point of my drug using, I just went, oh, what am I gonna do now? You know, this is, this is kind of the start of the end. Um, and I.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Was sitting in my car, just like faces all beaten up and.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Uh, from domestic violence.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm in my car, it's unregistered, I've got no licence, it's got like no fuel, I don't have a phone. I'm like, what am I going to do?

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And I, I think, I, I don't know if it was a conscious decision, but I knew how to make money fast.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And so I started selling drugs.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Okay, well, we'll talk, talk about that, but let's just delve into your relationships a bit. Um, and that situation where you found yourself alone in the car, I think you addressed it in, in your book.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Um.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Um, it seems to be a cycle. I hear it so often. I know there's an attraction to the, the wild side. But quite often, yeah, the, the protective boyfriend that's, um, yeah, looking after you. I hear it so often. Have you got a view on that? Because I, I, I'm trying to choose my words carefully here, but. I hear it so often, it's almost like the moment I see someone going out with the so-called cool bad guy. I'm thinking, wait, because he's going to be a drop kit. Now, I'm not, that's my view on it.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you, you're probably right, you know, for me, like, I can only speak for my experience. Uh, my appetite for risk was huge.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm, I'm like smoking ice. I'm, I'm also, I'm also seeking protection.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Because I've experienced harm.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  And so someone that, that.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  Presents.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Presents as a protector is going to make me feel safe. But also the, the type of relationships that I would have with this man was like intense. It was wild. It was. You know, passionate and it was fun and it, it escalates very fast into. Control, violence and assault.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  It, and it's not that I'm attracted to the violence, but it's that for me, I always thought. I'm good enough that he'll change. He'll love me enough.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  That he wouldn't do that to me. And I was with a guy who everyone told me, he is a psycho.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Do not get with him. He, and he said to me himself, like, I'm not a good guy.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  And I was like. You know, I'm not bad. Like, you're, why would you do that to me? I'm not a bad person. I'm not gonna make you violent because you'll love me enough. So I never think it's like women go, I'm attracted to the violence. It's kind of, I'm attracted to the intensity of this relationship. And often that can escalate into violence. And don't get me wrong, look, sometimes I gave as good as I got.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  And it definitely, not in the start, I wasn't a violent person. But after time, you learn how to protect yourself.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  And I, I suppose in a, a toxic relationship that, that can become, you get desensitized to it.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  And if you're both using, you're probably not looking at life through the clearest lens.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  No. And there's also the paranoia. There's also the heightened.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  You know, everything's heightened. And also, you're, you're never like regulated like this with your emotions. You're like up and then you're down and then you're like, I love you so much. And then it's like, I fucking hate you. I wanna kill you, you know?

• 33:30Speaker 00

  I shouldn't be laughing, but it's just a recipe for disaster, isn't it?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  It is. And no one, we're all out here hurt people just like in this chaos of this world. And then there's also the, all of the other shit that goes around it, you know, the cheating and the.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  And you're out all night and the distrust and all of those things. And that just heightens the emotions. And certainly for me, I didn't start off being a violent person or, or even like, you know, going down that road. But, you know, by the end, I was just as, I was just as harmful as I was hurt.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, well, that's, you make sense in what you're saying. It's a sort of honest assessment of, of what you went through. When you said the, the, probably the, the worst part, what, what happened there? Where you found yourself in the car without a phone and.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't the worst violence that I'd ever experienced, but it's definitely the, the, the turning point. And I, I look at my life as kind of, you know, left or right choices. Like I said in the National Press Club, it was like, this was my left or right choice. And at that point, I chose the wrong way, you know, I, instead of going. Going to a phone box, calling mum, yeah, packing it down and just kind of working it out. I um, I just drove, drove to my, like a dealer's house that I knew.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  And I was like, can you tick me up?

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  And I'll.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  As in getting the, the drugs for, for.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Up front.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Up front.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  I'll sell them, I'll bring the cash back. Yeah. And he was kind of like, no. And um, I was like, well, I need something. So it was like half of what I asked for.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  You know, negotiating. And then I started from there.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Um, how do you, well, I'll ask it in two parts. How did you feel at the time when you were selling drugs? And how do you feel now, looking back, the fact that you're selling drugs?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Um, at the time, I felt like, before I started selling drugs, I had no power.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I had no control over my life and I had no, I had no like self-worth at that point in my life again. And when I was selling drugs, I had, I had control. I had the power back for the first time in a really long time. I had power back in my life and choice.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  And it felt exciting and I felt confident. And I felt like I knew what I was doing because I'd always been crime adjacent. So I already.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  New, new legal terminology.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Don't tell the cops that one. Um, yeah, like I had always seen how it's done. And, you know, the type of personality that I am, it was almost like second nature to me.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  And never felt, I never, it never felt wrong. And I never felt like I was doing anything wrong because it wasn't, I wasn't going rocking up into random people's doorsteps going, do you wanna buy some drugs? It was people come to me.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Right, you, you.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Asking for them.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  See yourself as a supplier, uh, to people that were gonna get it one way or the other.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, but that's, I'm just trying to get the.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I'm not kind of going out there, pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. It was, people are asking for it, I've got it. And they're using it anyways.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  It was never this, it felt bad. It never felt. Wrong. I mean, obviously, I knew it was a crime because I'm not out there, you know, telling the cops I'm doing it. But I knew it was a crime, but it never felt wrong. And I think that's kind of a difference.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Okay. How how does Atalia circa two thousand twenty six feel about that now, looking back at it?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Look, I think she only knew what she knew.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I can't, I don't regret things in my life because ultimately they made me who I am and the lessons that I have learnt today. And I've also served my time and been punished and been held accountable and repaired the harm. Tried to do my best to repair the harm that I caused communities.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  While I was doing it.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  So like the Thalia today goes, the that Thalia, I need to care and love for her because she didn't know any better.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  And she did her best to like survive. And my intentions weren't ever to hurt people. But unfortunately, you know, that's part and parcel. And, you know, I don't intend to hurt people now, but I definitely could. And it's and it's the same kind of concept. It's not like you're intending to harm.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  You know, and I've and I've done my time for it. So, yeah, I feel like, and it's part of my story now. And it's part of why I do what I do. And it also, you know, lends me credibility to talk about it. And, yeah. Like, obviously, the harm that's caused in community because of ICE is horrific. And people, you know, have lost lots because of it.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  And probably no more so than the people who have used it.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Okay, no, I appreciate your your honesty there and the the rawness of it. And I do understand what what you're saying. You, it's hard to judge yourself on what was impacting on your decision making back in those times, looking back from where you are now.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I've been judged.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, and look.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  The the mechanisms of law got me and I stood in front of a Supreme Court judge and they handed down their sentence. And I took accountability. I pled guilty to all of my offences, even the ones that I wasn't technically guilty for.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  And copped it on the chin, did my time, got out and.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  I I think that's important too. If if we're demanding, okay, there's rules, there's things that as society we're going to abide by. There's punishments for committing certain offences. We've got to understand that if someone's served their punishment in the the time in jail or whatever it is of a fine, that's society's way of um you know, bringing them into line and that they have paid the price for it. Okay, I love this part of the stories when the cops caught you.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Bloody cop.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Bloody cops. Here they go again. What uh what happened? How how did it all unravel?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Um, so I was in Brazil, I was living on the Gold Coast, I was in Brisbane for the night. And I was driving back, it's kind of like a back road from um kind of east Brisbane to the Gold Coast.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Um through the hinterland. And um they had a traffic stop. And like I used to always cruise around with gear on me.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  And it was pretty messy by this point in time. And they had a uh the road was stopped.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, that's so weird. A car, I found out later, a car had gone off the ditch and they're trying to pull it out. So they stopped traffic both ways.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And so I'm like third back, the car in front of me bangs a U-turn.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  And goes, I'm not waiting and they bang a U-turn. And like I'm kind of pull up second in line and I can see, the cop can see me, I can see the cop. He's not far away, but he's stopping traffic for the tow truck, it's not for me.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  And I grabbed the ounce that's kind of sitting here in the cup holder. And I put it down my pants and sort of just like sit it, you know, inside the the hem of my pants. And I'm looking around, trying not to be obvious, like looking around going, is there anything else? Is there a pipe? Like, is there, you know, scales, like, what have I got? Holy shit. Just so that when I drive past him, he's not going to look in the window and see shit. So I'm just kind of putting it out of sight. And then, yeah, I I do that, sorry, I do that, and then that car does a U-turn.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  And I kind of drive up second and I think about it for a couple of seconds and I go, nah, fuck it, I'm doing the U-turn too.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  And I I go out to do the U-turn and the cop kind of steps towards me and goes, what do you think you're doing?

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I was like, um, what did you? He didn't stop him. And he goes, pull over here. And I. You know, in that moment, you've got a, you've got a, a choice to make. He's not in a car.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  And some people aren't gonna like what I have to say, but you just go. You don't stop.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  That's dumb.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Because a, an evade police is a fuck all sentence, really, compared to announce a vice. So if they catch you at all, I mean, a hire car, like prove it was me, sort of, that's the mentality you have at the time. Yeah, yeah. So I have those thoughts and I, and I go, okay, like an idiot. And I pull over cause I'm.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, trying to play it cool.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Well, and also I was never the type of person that is like, fuck the police. My grandfather was a police officer.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  So I have all of those intersecting factors coming into every decision I make, you know, I've, I'm very, I've been in raids before. And the police are like, you're just so polite.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Damn those parents raising me properly.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you're just so polite. What are you doing here, Tahlia? Like, what are you, what, this is not for you. You know, they're always saying those things to me. And, you know, that's kind of how I just treat people, but also the police. And so I pull over, you know, like I'm told to. And he goes to his car, which is a bit further down. He comes back and he's got something in his hand. And it's a breathalyzer and a drug test. I don't drink cause I'm an ice addict. And that's just not on, yeah, radar. And I do the breath test and it passes and I do the drug test and he waits. And he goes, you failed the drug test. Get out of the car. And at this point, I know I'm.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Stuffed.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  I'm fucked.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  So they get me out of the car. He searches the car. He finds a bag in my wallet and he comes over and he says, I found a bag of gear in your wallet. And I go. I don't know whose that is. I don't do drugs. Meanwhile, I've just got a positive drug test. An ounce down my pants. But you're just, you're in the lie, right? You deny it. You go, that's not mine. He might give me a warning. He might just like, give me a warning. They call out another crew with a female. And they say, you're in the back of the car. We're gonna, you're gonna do a strip search back at the station. And we'll charge you with the, what we found.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  And we go back to the station. I go into the room with her and I just pull out the drugs from down my pants. And it's not just one bag, cause it was, there's so many other things. Like there's a pipe and there's this and there's. And so I've just pulled out all this paraphernalia onto the bench. And she, um, she just looked at me like, this isn't good for you.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  This, this isn't gonna be good for you. And I'm sitting in the watch house. They, they processed me into the watch house. It's not the first time I've been in a watch house, but. Uh, only ever temporarily, you know, just kind of, they don't put you in the cells and process you. They just put you in like a holding bit. And then they give you watch house bail.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Or they just release you because they couldn't charge you with anything. But this is the first time they processed me into a watch house. And yeah, when I was sitting in that watch house. They come to the gate and they go, we raided your unit. And I thought, fuck, I'm never getting out of here.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  I'm never getting out. They found lists and.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Fanar and.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Shit that wasn't mine, but no one else is in the unit, so it is mine. And.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Just so much stuff. And, cause I wasn't ever careful.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  And I never thought that they raided my unit. Like, how the hell did they find it? You know, like, holy shit, that's some good police work.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Credit where credit's due.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, geez, you guys really went on this one. Um, so, yeah, so then they charged me with all this stuff.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  What were the charges you got?

• 45:02Speaker 01

  The, the charges I got then were not the charges I was sentenced for.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Because, um, there's obviously like a lot of back and forth between lawyers and stuff that goes on, but I got. Charged with commercial supply.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Right, serious.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Very serious. Um, possession of a whole shitload of things. I had someone else's passport, which was like, um, you know, possession of, it was like a federal offence, like.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't look good when you're coupled with all your other offences.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, yeah, it was wild. Um. And so, uh, failing to unlock a mobile device and all of these things. So they charged me with a whole heap of stuff. And then I spent like the weekend in the watch house. The magistrate, I see the magistrate on the Tuesday, cause they got me on the Friday. And the magistrate gives me bail, no conditions.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  I, and I'll ask you this, we'll, we'll obviously talk about it, but I know in your book and when I've hea- heard you talk, that you're almost surprised and indignant that they didn't give you conditions because it just.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  They dropped me back off at the car that they picked me up from and I just jumped back in it and drove straight to my dealer's house and went, I just got out of the fucking watch house.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. And is that, you, you, is that when you adopted this, um, like it's basically, uh, fuck it. I'm in trouble.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  I'm.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  I'm out. I haven't got bail conditions. And I think there was a quote I saw from an article.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Turn my life to the ground.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Uh, I just set my life on fire. I was being really destructive, uh, taking cocktails of drugs. So after you've been arrested, so this potentially was the warning, uh, warning sign for you. You've spent a couple of days in the watch house, which is an experience within itself. And then you've been released. You knew these matters are gonna come up in court, but you adopted the attitude, well, let's, let's have fun before, uh, uh, before.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, before this, my life, I had a clean slate.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  And my life, I could be whatever I chose it to be.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  Okay, so you could steer it back into the, the straight, normal life without.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  I was just getting some cash so that I could get my shit together and get back on track. And kinda got carried away with it.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And it become my identity, but before I got charged with all that stuff, I wasn't a crim. Like cops didn't know me. I was free to kind of stop at any time, but after they charged me, my lawyer's going, you're going to prison.

• 47:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, well, let's give it a good crack then, like. Fuck it.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  I was like, what else is my life gonna be now? I'm gonna go to jail.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  And that, that, like, that sentence stays in your head, like, you're going to prison anyways. So may as well just do whatever you're doing now until you go to prison and then work it out, you know?

• 47:54Speaker 00

  So what chaos did you get up to then?

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Um, so before that, I wasn't really like taking Fana, like GHB fantasy. Or G or whatever it is people call it now. I don't know. I'm too old.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Um, I've been out of it for a while. So I was taking that, like, on the regular. And I didn't use it before.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  I'm just like smoking a, as much gear as I could get my hands on, driving stolen cars. Allegedly like, you know, just crazy shit, just stupid stuff, like.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Just really reckless, didn't care about my life, silly stuff, like hanging out with people who are on the run. Um, just, yeah, just shitty.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  So it's, I, I'm just trying to understand the psychology of it, but, but it's. You're at the point, up until that point, your life could have, you could have steered it back in a different direction. Uh, you could have gone and clean slate and that was an experience. Lucky I escaped that.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  But once you were put, all the charges were on and you knew and, and the advice you had got given from your solicitor is that you're likely going to jail. You just thought, fuck it, I'll, I'll do what I, I'll just have some fun. I'm now a criminal. I may as well live like a criminal. Is that the mindset?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, part of it. And part of it is also I enveloped the entire identity of this as being me now. Like I went, this gives me a bit of street cred, you know, I'm cool now or like. Gives me a bit of authority because like, you know, I'm going, I'm going to prison now. Like I've got these charges, like. Kind of, it, it's a, it's a weird psychology to kind of think about, but. It almost was like a solidifying, that was gonna be my path now, like this was who I was. Cause like that judge could have, you know, the magistrate, it's not their fault, it's not about placing blame. At all, it's my fault, I make, I'm a product of my decisions.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  That's important.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I am a product of my decisions and I, and I take full responsibility. But you know, that judge had an opportunity to go, we are not releasing you back into the community. You are going to go to a rehabilitation facility because you clearly have a problem.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, now that, that's an interesting point and one I think we, we need to explore that set intervention in that. And a lot of people caught up in the drug world as users that, and most time users at some point in time become sellers. Because it's the nature of the.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  And it's expensive.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the nature of the industry, but what you're suggesting here is that at that point in time. You clearly had a problem, like you let, you walk out the door, you're gonna get straight back on the gear.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  They know it.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  It would have been better at that point, addressing it through medical, yeah, therapeutic approach to dealing, dealing with your problem.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, or at least someone sit down and have a conversation with me and go, you have a choice.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  You can either get yourself away from this, get yourself clean, like what do you wanna do with your life? You wanna spend the rest, you know, you wanna spend the rest of your days going in and out of prison, I can tell you it's not fun. Like, you know, and sit down and have these conversations with people, like if you go to prison, it's gonna be really hard to get a job. You might not be able to travel to some countries, you know, your whole life's ahead of you, like this is not your whole life, like some sort of intervention. But like no one, the only conversation I had was with my lawyer who went, you're going to prison.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, okay then, sure, like, all right then, well, I better make it a good one, like, I don't know. I just think there is a responsibility and if people still choose to go down that path. Cause we ultimately can't make people change, right? We, we can't make people change in any intervention. People have to choose and then at least you have like a whole picture choice. You know, I didn't have a choice, they're going, you're getting, go out, get out of here, get out of the court. And like, what's my choice? I have to return the hire car, I also owe people money now.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Um, and. It's, you know, you're kind of forced into.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  It's almost like the the system's overwhelmed with it because I if we made you a case study and just had all the smartest brains and psychologists and everyone else working at you. There's a good chance we could turn you around, but that's, yeah, that takes resourcing and, um, yeah, things that clearly we don't have.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  But if we did put the money in there, because it costs us a shitload of money keeping you in in prison. What's the hundred and fifty thousand dollars, I think, for adult inmates?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Four hundred and fifty dollars a day.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  For for um the adult one.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  So even if we look at it from a, yeah, a financial point of view, it would be best spent money trying to divert you from your your actions.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  So I I I find it interesting because you you look at you're looking at it what I consider objectively. Like you're talking, this is my life and this is this is what happened. But we could make a difference. Uh nah, that first time, clearly, like being a cop or not even being a cop, I could look at the situation you were caught in and gone, okay, I can pretty much tell what you've been doing for the last couple of years.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  They knew, I'd been in raids, I've been present, you know, they they and they knew me. These cops that that got called out already knew me, they're calling me by my first name, you know, they know that I've been.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  They knew the path you you were going down.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, they're also their hands are tied, like, it's not like it's their responsibility to go.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  I'm not in this discussion that it's the police can't do anything other than enforce the law.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Enforce the law, yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  It's the justice system that perhaps we we could try to do it a little bit differently.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  And I think it's all systems that interplay with each other, like it comes from the top down, it comes from uh the people who make policy all the way down to the people that enforce that policy. But I I want to make a point, like, the Tahlia that got arrested that first time deserved help. She deserved a a choice.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  The Tahlia that got arrested and got sent to prison.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  The last time, probably needed to go to prison. I was being pretty harmful, pretty terrible. And not that I, like, it's hard, it's hard to, I mean, and they're the same, I'm the same person. But like, what was the other response that we could have had?

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, by, by that stage, it was too late. You, you need, you needed some form of punishment for.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Well, I just needed some form of accountability.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  I needed to be held accountable, but I also, once I was being held accountable, needed resources to not, not do it again.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  What, what we're talking about here, drug courts are very much aligned with that. Have you got any knowledge of drug courts?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  They're underfunded.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  They're not everywhere. Um, they're starting to be defunded in some states and closed down. They, you know, we've got some reforms going on in Queensland that basically is repealing like diversion laws.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  And, and we're going backwards in some places.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  That's concerning because I, I thought that was a progressive way of, uh, dealing, dealing with the drug issue we've got in society and the drug, drug courts. But, uh, yeah.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  Um, and I, I wonder sometimes if it's, it just doesn't fit the narrative of politicians going for elections, saying, let's get tough on, tough on crime.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  I, I think, uh, we need to get smart on crime, not, uh, tough on crime. Okay, we're going to, um, talk about your jail experience.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Um, which is, yeah, never much, much fun, but I want you, when we come back, we might take a break now. When we come back, I want you to take us through what it's like going into prison. Because unless you've been there, I don't think anyone can fully appreciate it. So if you could describe to us what you were going through when, uh, you pull up in the truck for the first time. And, uh, realise that, uh, this is where you're, you're spending a considerable amount of time.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Sounds good.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  Cheers.