How Australia created a criminal empire: Rohan Pike Pt. 2

Australia's war on tobacco has backfired spectacularly, and the consequences have become deadly. In this episode of I Catch Killers, former ABF and AFP detective Rohan Pike takes us deeper into the self-inflicted tobacco wars and its consequences - including the booming unregulated vape industry, with almost all vapes sold in Australia now illegal. Rohan also tells us about serving as an AFP officer in Islamabad in the aftermath of 9/11, his role in the high-profile Jihad Jack case, and leading Australia's first ever foreign bribery investigation. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  In part two of my chat with former AFP and Border Force detective Rohan Pike, we delve deeper into Australia's tobacco wars. And Rowan gives us his no bullshit opinion on what he believes needs to be done to fix a mess that has been created. We also talked about Rowan's time with the AFP in Pakistan of all places. Have a listen. Rohan Pike, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  Jeez, we've got ourselves into a mess, haven't we?

• 1:15Speaker 01

  We have.

• 1:16Speaker 00

  And we're not talking about the podcast here. We're talking about the, uh, what's happening in the tobacco industry.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's all self-inflicted and hopefully we can find a way out of it.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, obviously we talked in, in part one about how it came into effect and the, the intention was right, but the flow on effect hasn't really worked. Just sort of summing up what the consequences are of the policies that we've brought in to reduce tobacco in the, the country. And this is just, I'll, I'll just mention it and then we can talk about it. But this is my sort of take on it. The illicit market has caused the collapse in the tobacco exercise revenue, increasing smoking rates and widespread violence, limited access to lower risk alternatives like vaping, which is virtually prohibited, economic incentives for criminal activity.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  That's what this policy, all these policies over the years have sort of grown into. So collapsing the tobacco exercise revenue. We're talking, what was, you've said the breakdown in the four years, it's gone by, down by a third or a quarter?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's down, it's down from sixteen and a half billion to five billion. So, yeah, there's eleven a year that we're not getting.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  And, and that's what, what we're talking about. This is money that the government is not getting that could be put back into what taxes should be put back into.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, we've, we've lost that. So that's concerning. Increasing smoking rates and coupled with widespread violence. So the effect, and no one can argue with trying to reduce the smoking rates. I think we're, we're comfortable there, but it's actually increased it.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, as the policy has now given access to people to cheap cigarettes. As I say, over eighty percent of the smoking population buy a licit for about ten, twelve dollars.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Um, and they're, they're delighted with that.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  That's the cheapest they've bought it for twenty, thirty years.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  And, and what's a packet of legitimate cigarettes worth, these days?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Um, the very cheapest ones you can get, the poorest quality are around forty five dollars.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  But your traditional big name brands like your Marlboros and Benson, Benson Edges, they're almost seventy dollars now, sixty eight, seventy dollars.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Okay, and we're talking about, and I don't know the figures, but the heavy smoker, I would imagine the pack of the day or whatever, seventy, four hundred and ninety dollars, five hundred dollars a week virtually on cigarettes?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, some are still doing that to their detriment of, well, not only their health, but their, their budget and their, their family.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  And even food that they're foregoing in order to feed their habit. But many people have just decided that they can't afford that, but there is an alternative. And like they'll buy the ten or twelve dollar pack.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  I, I suppose if it comes down to putting food on the table for kids and your, your addiction to smoking, you can't give up for whatever reason. You, you're gonna steer the waters, well, we'll, we'll take something from the government.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Limited access to lower risk alternatives like vaping, which is virtually prohibited. Talk us, we haven't really touched on vaping. Talk us, talk us through that, but because my understanding with vaping, it was bought in because it was a, a lower risk compared to cigarettes and it was a way of weaning people, weaning people off cigarettes. What, what's happened in that space?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Australia's health policy has not only keen on a total ban of tobacco, which is fair enough because it's the combustible tobacco in cigarettes, which produces the carcinogens that kill people with cancer. But not the case with, with vaping. So some, but Australia's health authorities have taken a stand against vaping as well, which then discourages people from getting off smoking and onto vaping, whereas other countries like the UK have, their health service have come out and said vaping's 20 times safer and that they've even handed out vapes for

• 5:19Speaker 01

  free to, they've got a swap to stop program. So they give smokers vapes in order to get them off the smokes because they know that those things kill you, but vapes don't. New Zealand have regulated vapes and have got vape shops and that's helped get their smoking rate halved in the last, you know, five or six years. It's significantly lower than Australia in New Zealand. So they have embraced vapes as a lower risk alternative. And Australia's never really accepted that as a thing. So we've made it very hard for people to get, we go through a, it was a prescription model, but in some states it still is, but most states it's now a pharmacy model, they call it, where you have to go

• 6:03Speaker 01

  to a pharmacist, if you can find one, because most pharmacies are against it. In fact, the vast majority of pharmacies are against it. So not many of them actually sell them. But if you can find one that does, you've got to argue your case as to why you need one, which is a bit painful in the first place. But then they've only got two flavours to choose from. They've got, you know, nicotine concentrations and puff counts that might not be suitable for your. Circumstances, if if you uh either if you just want to vape because you like nicotine or or if you're wanting to use them to to quit, there's not really the resources or the guidance, the education around that in Australia, whereas there are in other countries.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  So so without that pathway being easily accessible and being encouraged in Australia, then people stick with what they know, which is which is cigarettes, which is the worst possible outcome for them and for our health.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Okay. I look obviously not not a health expert, but you're saying a pathway to reduce from smoking, the counter argument could be vaping is is dangerous, but the science that we can rely on and we're, you know, law enforcement, we're not health experts, is that it's probably better than the the smoking. And other countries have adopted that. Okay, well, how are we going to wean people off cigarettes? Vaping, my my observations, just looking in general public, you don't see as many people smoking, but you see people vaping here. The vapes that they're getting here, they're all illegal?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, ninety six percent of the vape market is illegal, which again, as we touched on before, is dangerous because you they're not quality assured and you don't know what's in them. Not that the vape manufacturers want to kill off their customers.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  But um they're not going to be the best health outcome for the for the consumers. And and I don't want to, um, you know, as I said, in the last ten years, I've tried to educate myself on on this topic. Um, and finding ways to help the illicit market.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Um, and I've got a law enforcement background, not a health background, but my view is that if more people went to vapes, then there'd be a less, a smaller cadre of smokers.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  And if there's less smokers, then there's less illicit, less illicit smokers.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  So that that that um population naturally decreases, which is this, which is what's happened in New Zealand, because there's very few smokers over there now.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Um, but lots of vapers.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  And and it's legal to sell vapes over in New Zealand?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. But and are they quality controlled?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are. So they're they're ones that are approved by the government over there.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  What what's the ones here that you you get through the doctors or you you touched on all the?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are some legitimate ones. Some of those are actually come through New Zealand. Um. You can get them sort of online, but there is a, you know, safer pathway for to get proper vapes. So if people want to go through that, jump those hurdles, they they can do so.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  And we're a warning here, we're not encouraging people to vape or encouraging people to smoke. But what you're explaining ma- makes sense to me if we can get get people off of smokes.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  I mean, on a larger, broader scale, I mean, I go to these conferences now around the world. There's a billion smokers in the world. If all of them went over to vape tomorrow, we'd be saving tens of millions of lives.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Every year. So it's it's much healthier. So and Australia's obviously just a small proportion of that. But as I say, we'd reduce our illicit smokers if we could encourage the vape market.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. Solutions.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  Okay, where where do we go? Oh, before the solutions, I'll read out another um passage from your submission to the Senate Inquiry. Australia's tobacco control policy is producing outcomes that undermine its stated objectives. Rather than reducing harm, it is entrenching organised crime, increasing violence, eroding revenue and weakening public health controls. Okay, my interpretation of that passage from your submission is you think we can do better?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  That's a nice summation, um in pretty much in every way that it's out of control. It's very, it's now it's entrenched and it's so widespread that it's gonna be hard, much harder to turn it around.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Compared to when I first told the government about the problem 10 years ago. Whereas I was perhaps naively encouraging them to increase enforcement significantly back then, which perhaps would have dampened the rise.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  But now it's out of control. So um we've gone past that point that, you know, that's perhaps a sweet spot of where the excise rate could have been, that both discouraged smoking but um didn't encourage criminals to come in and undercut the price.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  And that's that, you you talked overseas, the different profit margin, like if it's twenty percent that you're making, yeah, twenty cents on each cigarette.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  If we're where we are, you're making a dollar.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  On the cigarette.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  And I'm sure if you mapped uh excise rates in other countries and compared them to uh the illicit rates.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  There'd be a similarity.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Have have we got the highest excess rates?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, easily. So New Zealand's quite high. They're a dollar thirty a stick.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  England's about the same. But as I say, both of those countries, both of those countries encourage uh vaping as an alternative, and that's reduced um the smoking population.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Right. So it it would you suggest a figure or just more in line to recalibrate the exercise?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Look, it's it's hard to pick a figure.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  The Liberal Party putting together a policy now, they have floated numbers like thirty or fifty percent reduction.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Um in the excise rate. But really, at the end of the day, we're taking a guess. So um public health people say, no, there should be no reduction, just keep putting it up, which is just adding fuel to the to the fire. And and it's just a gift to organised crime and increasing the margin between the legal and illegal price. I used to say that we should review it and actually get some studies done of consumers and ask them. No one actually asked smokers, what what would you be happy to pay? But I'm sort of at the point now where I think we should just pick a number, a much lower number than what it is now, and give it a go. Because what we're doing now is not working. Um sitting on our hands

• 12:42Speaker 01

  won't work, raising the excise won't work. Um just pick a number that's much lower than it is now. And see how we go.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so by by doing that, you'd be hitting the the illegal trade.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  Lowering the number. You said, okay, decrease it, not increase it. Well, I think we can all predict what would happen if you. Let's say, let's double the taxes. It's just going to increase the legal activity even more.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so just following on through the logic of the health authorities.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  You can make cigarettes a hundred dollars a pack.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  So that's why don't we?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  So if fifty is sort of working, if they say that this policy is working at fifty or sixty dollars a box, make it a hundred.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Hundred dollar.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and let's see how that goes.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Everyone would be.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Well, it would be a hundred percent. It wouldn't be eighty percent. It'd be a hundred percent. So it's just a nonsense argument that that we just keep raising it and that's doing us good. It's that's not. No one is, none of those regulations that they've brought in, like on the packaging and so on, um will then have any effect. Because the criminals just go the opposite way.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Well, what you say makes sense to me, not that that counts. Um enforcement investment. So um I'm just looking at here some of the figures that a hundred and fifty six million announced over four years in two thousand and twenty four. When we're talking beans made in profit and a hundred and fifty six million sounds sounds big, but you don't think that'll make much difference?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't think the structure, the enforcement regime is correct.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Even you touched on before about having cross border problems with Queensland, New South Wales when there was a tax differential. Well, if there's a crime penalty differential between states and criminals might be encouraged to set up shop in in the lower. Enforced enforced jurisdiction and so on. So we need consistency.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Um we need a robust system where there's dedicated resources going focused on this issue. This if the government really wants to.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Collect the excise that they're putting on these products, they have to step up with an appropriate amount of enforcement.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  In order to collect it. So every state and territory at the moment is doing something different.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  So despite the government talking about coordination.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  National approach.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, national approach. There's this new ITech Commissioners Office that's supposed to be coordinating everyone's response. There's a National Disruption Group. There's still the Illicit Tobacco Task Force that's nationwide. There's still a disconnect between all the agencies that have got a partial responsibility for it and no one's seems to agree. It's, and remember one politician calling it a slippery pig that they just keep passing on to the.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  That's a good description.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  To the next agency along the line. It's really difficult and enforcement, I don't think they understand how strong the enforcement needs to be.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  From overseas, right through the border, through the organised crime supply chains, all the way to the retail level.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  To really clamp down on this. They, they just can't get their heads around what that looks like. And it's, it's much larger than what they envisage. And it won't happen unless it's consistent across the board. So at the moment, at the moment, the settings mean that there's still no deterrence.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  For criminals to come in to the market.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  And, and I, I could imagine if the different jurisdictions, as in the states, have different penalties and that, you would encourage it. The other thing I look at, okay, let's stamp it out right at the end. But that's, that's not going to work because, yeah, if you hit every tobacco store every day, twenty four, had them under twenty four seven surveillance. Organised crime with the profit margin, the risk and reward. Again, they'll look at other ways of distributing the.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  There'll be people walking around in, in pubs, carrying bags of cigarettes or vapes or whatever.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Well, one of the biggest ways is online now.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  So, while I say the shops are the biggest way that they distribute, it's not the only way.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  And the online space is being ignored by law enforcement at the moment. It's far more difficult to police.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  And it's growing.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Quite rapidly, uh, uh, there was a funny incident, I'm not sure if it's still up there, but um, one of the home delivery services in Sydney, Hungry Panda, had next to their, you know, chicken chow mein, they had illicit vapes on, on their website. So you could actually home deliver your, your meal while you, with your vape, while you didn't get off the couch. But um,

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Gratty, gratty people.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  That's how blatant it has been in Australia. I'm not sure that that's still there, but uh.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  And look, we, we shouldn't be laughing, but it, it, I, I think I'm laughing at the ridiculousness of trying to stop the flood that is coming in.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  And where, where do you put your hole in the, in the, in the dam?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, well, of course, the, the vape market, we can fix that tomorrow.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  By just regulating.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Just get the New Zealand model.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Allow people to sell quality assured products that they're not good for people, but they're the best product that available in, in that category for people. Um, and make them freely available everywhere.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  And then they'll be competing or undergutting the criminal market.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  And that's the only way to fix an illicit market.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Is to produce a

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Produce it.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Regulated market.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  There, there's a little bit, I can't help but think, uh, the pill testing at, uh, festivals, music festivals and that, and the argument now, well, it's encouraging it and yeah. We acknowledge that using, uh, illicit drugs is, is not good for you. But it's a lesser evil if you're testing the drugs before, uh, you know, so a young kid does an overdose, or you, you have those spate of overdoses at, uh, festivals where a bad batch of drugs has been going around. I do see the logic in having some sort of regulation there that if, okay, if you are going to use a vape or, or even tobacco, but you're going to use something that's been regulatory tested.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not good for you, but it's, yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that pill testing is just classic harm reduction.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Methodology.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's, no one's encouraging it, but you'd be naive to think that they're not taking pills. So you'd rather than be pills that are not going to kill you.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Than, than whatever. So, um, and it's the same goes for tobacco. So, you know, vapes considered healthier.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  If everyone moved over to vapes, then every, the population would be healthier, not as healthy as they could be.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  But there are other products being invented all the time in this space to allow people their nicotine hit.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Um, which they crave and are addicted to, but enjoy.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  But not to give them cancer.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  So things like nicotine pouches, whereas vapes are five percent of, of the harm of a cigarette, nicotine pouches are point one of a percent.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  Okay. So again, like lowering that.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Lowering the risk, yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  And I suppose the money that's been missed in the taxes that it was set up to get, it could have been poured into education and, uh, and health, like educating the public on the dangers and the risks. Cause I know that a lot of campaigns there, but we're, we're missing that opportunity too.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think, I personally think education is the best way of getting people off cigarettes. It was one of the first things I ever learnt when I was born, you know, after walking that cigarettes are bad for you and it'll give you cancer. And it came out in the seventies.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Um, and that, that scared me often forever, but I sort of feel like that message isn't promoted as strongly as it could be.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Now. And yeah, surely kids would steer away from something that's going to kill them.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  I've heard of, of only relatively recent times, they're talking about banning from a certain age. So if you're over, uh, and I, I don't think it's here in this country, but it was being discussed. If you're over the age of 40, you can continue the, or a birth date they set.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  But, uh, what, what's that about? Cause I only picked up on snippets of it in the media.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's happened in the UK. It's just passed parliament. So it's, it's called a generational ban. So amongst other regulations they brought in is one, they've set a date where it's like 17 year olds, I think.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Uh banned from smoking and that that date remains the same. So everyone born from now on, um it'll go up one yearly uh so that in twenty years' time, everyone under forty will be banned and forty years' time, which is all very well and good.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Again, it's uh ideological nonsense. I like the symbolism of people of it, um but totally unenforceable.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And I don't think they actually intend to enforce it. So the health department brings in some of those rules and as just a symbol and they, I mean, in twenty years' time, you know, the shopkeeper's not going to distinguish between a thirty nine year old and a forty year old as to you can have a smoke and you can't. It's it's a nonsense and they're they're not going to try. But I mean, it's like the plain packaging that came in in Australia, was it thirteen years ago? It's never been enforced. There hasn't been a prosecution.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  And I could walk outside of your studio here today and buy wrongly packaged cigarettes in five minutes.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  But not not enforced.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  But not enforced ever. So it was just, and we went to a massive trouble on a lot of fanfare about bringing that in. We're Australia's world leading in our tobacco control, but some of these things are just there for show. Um we haven't, we haven't even tried to enforce it. So anyway, of course, the criminals just um package things in their traditional colours and they use that as a marketing tool.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  We've been touching on harm reduction, but uh a couple of countries here that reduction in smoking prevalence, Sweden, New Zealand, Japan, United Kingdom, providing regulated access to lower risk nicotine products. So that's what you're talking about with the the steering towards uh vaping. Who do you think's got the best model? Where where do you think the best model in uh around the world in in smoking? And I suppose it's a difficult one because culturally, some countries just, you know, you go to some countries and everyone seems to smoke other countries different. But where where do you think a model that might work for our country?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  You have to work out what your ultimate goal is. What's your ultimate K P I? And I would suggest that it's smoking rates. Yeah. Is the less people that smoke, the better. Yeah. For a country. So the lowest at the moment is Sweden. Um, because they embrace nicotine pouches. They call it snus, but it's a product that is, you don't inhale, just put it in your lip. You just chew it, dude. Yeah, you just put it in your lip. It's like a little pouch. Yeah. And um, the nicotine infuses into your system and they enjoy that, but they get none of the cancer blowback. So um, or muchly, much reduced. Um, so Sweden's well ahead, but New Zealand, not far behind.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Their smoking rate's down into the sixes now. Yeah. Uh, where ours is back up at the double figures. Um, and there's, as I say, it's back on the back of vapes and they're, I bet they're considering pouches regulating that now. And they'd be mad not to because again, they understand the science. They actually read the global evidence. Whereas Australia closes our eyes. Yeah. To the global evidence, um, which is, you know, profound. Um, and England, both of these countries are struggling with, with the illicit smoking, with the illicit tobacco bit. So, um, and that's because of their excise rates being high. So, um, even in countries that encourage safer products.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  And have lowered their smoking rates significantly, they even are struggling with illicit tobacco. Right. Um, so once you do ramp up the excise, that's the clear driver around the world, then it's hard to stop. Yeah. Even with, no matter how much enforcement you do with it. Um, but yeah, as I say, with, with New Zealand, they've only got about 300,000 smokers. Yeah. In the whole country, um, because, because they've encouraged these other products and.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  The illicit rate being, even if it was fifty percent, that's, that's not that many people over there. So they've reduced that cadre.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And, and so the, the crime aren't attracted to it like bees to a honeypot.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  So, sort of thing. With what they have in, have in New Zealand, do they have, what I'm trying to ask here with the, the politicians here, you've given submissions and spoken to, to inquiries. Our politicians, are they adopting a bipartisan approach here, or are we trying to political score and go, okay, this is Labour's way, this is Liberal's way, this is our policy? Or do we unite on, on this? Is it united front from a political point of view?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Um, it was, uh, for, uh, twelve years or so. So after.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  Because you'd think our aims would be the same regardless of what.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  You would think that. Certainly the Health Department is united, um, and they are providing the evidence, the information and the advice to the Health Minister. But the parties have diverged. So in, at the last election, the coalition put forward a policy of embracing harm reduction.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And that they were going to regulate vapes. Um, obviously it was only one of a thousand policies. They didn't lose the election over that, but, um, that was going to come in had they won. Obviously they didn't. Um, but they are looking at that still now. And they're also, and they've just recently called, as I said before, to reduce the excise rate substantially. So they are looking. Of the big three, I'll call them, is the excise rate, the coordinated enforcement and harm reduction. Um, and the coalition are now putting together a policy that addresses all three of those issues.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Whereas the government are not there, not looking at the excise rate at all, changing that. Um, they are making a sort of a half-hearted effort to increase enforcement, which was virtually non-existent three years ago, apart from the border. And as I say, we're sort of going through a period of experimentation in every state and territory at the moment. Which was supposed to be led by the government and coordinated by the government, but, uh, it's, hasn't gone that way. And the harm reduction, as I said, is not something that they're embracing either. So, um, they're going in a different direction. Um, not one that I agree with and not one I think will solve the problem.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Well, the way you've you've broken it, uh, broken the whole, um, situation down.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Clearly, if we we don't change our thinking, we're, we could crack down with law enforcement. I know what would happen then, and we'd do some media conferences and go, look, we've shut these stores down.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  And then we'd turn our back for five minutes and they'd pop up everywhere else.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's right. I mean, in New South Wales, we've announced fifty stores closed, but they don't announce how many opened.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  In the same amount of time, which would probably equal that. But, yeah, it's it's whack a mole, what we're doing at the moment.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Whack a mole as in?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just close that store, there's another one open, so we'll catch that criminal, another one opens. We put a lot of stores, you might have known back in your police days, in in seizure rates.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Like, it's it's a great photo op for a commissioner to stand behind a table full of drugs or or a list of tobacco. And say, look what we're doing, we're doing a great job. Um, but the reality is it it has no disruptive effect. So it's so cheap, this product, and so accessible from overseas to smuggling, that, you know, as I said, the the border force are sma- uh, seizing six million cigarettes a day and having no effect. So they've just put in a submission to this Senate inquiry saying, this is what we're seizing, we're doing what you've asked us to do.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  But the problem's getting bigger. So can you meet us halfway with the the driver of this?

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Um, so at least they've, and it was quite courageous of them to question the government's policy, so I congratulate them for doing that.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Um, but they have come to the realisation that they're fighting a losing battle. And the government's not keen to change their mind. I mean, the current health minister, perhaps this is one of the motivations, current health minister Butler, was instrumental in creating the policy in the first place, back in twenty ten, when he was the Parliamentary Secretary for Health. So he might be.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Invested in interest.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Invested in it and therefore, um, he'd be personally loathe to say, sorry, uh, that was wrong and we took that too far.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, it's human nature, isn't it? You don't want to admit your faults, but maybe that was the the thing for the time. It was worth worth trying, because a lot of times you you get the right result after trying one thing, that failed, let's try try another thing. And, uh, let's try and try and make a difference. Three years' time, where do you think we'll be, uh, will I have you back here and we'll be talking about, well, now there's been a dozen murders, um, you know, major shopping centres have been burnt down. Where do you think we'll be in three years' time in your honest opinion? Do you think we're, we're learning from the disaster we're involved in?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  I think in three years' time that the excise might have moved. They might have moved on that because it's, uh, plainly obvious to ninety nine percent of the population.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  And that might filter back to the government by then. I don't think it will in the next year, but as I say, this period of experimentation with enforcement, we're going to arrest a lot of people, we're going to seize record numbers of things and, and then the smoking rate will keep going up and there'll be no change to the illicit market.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Um, and they'll go, well, hang on, why aren't we getting some of the outcomes that we wanted? And so then they'll look at excise, so that could take three years. But the other thing is that we'll be talking about in three years is alcohol. So that market is about to take off. It's, as with the illicit tobacco market, it's been going on for some years. That, uh, that's been smuggled in to, in order to avoid the excise. And the excise on that is a bit more complicated because there's, uh, there is manufacturing in Australia with distilleries and so on. Um, but there's also imported, um, smuggling going on. But criminals are wanting to avoid that excess as well.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Because, um, then, so that's probably the second highest, um, taxed commodity. Um, and so the criminals have pretty much got a monopoly on the tobacco. They've made, only make six and a point nine billion.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  They're making more, more than the government.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's not much more they can make, that they've got it pretty much covered, the smoking population. Um, they're going to look to see what they can expand to, and it may well be alcohol.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  It, it's interesting, but, well, you know, crooks like I know crooks, where the opportunity is, that's where they'll go. And I can't help but thinking it's harder for them to make money in this day, day and age, with more traditional forms of the way, um, the criminals would, uh, Get their money. So if they can get into this, uh, yeah, capitalize on the excessive tax.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Whether it be alcohol or cigarettes.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  Uh, it's not like you can wander down the road and rob a bank or the Arm, Armageddon.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  The, these days.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  No, you don't see those crimes anymore. But no, the criminals are a bit more sophisticated and smarter than they were. And they look for vulnerabilities in a system and they especially look for commodities that are highly taxed.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Cause they can beat that price uh by avoiding it.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  And, and people could be controlling this from overseas. And they, they distance themselves that far that any increase in legislations or penalties is not going to be that much of a concern. Cause they're so far removed.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, the funny thing about Kaz Hamid, even though he was arrested about a month ago, is that we don't want him back. So we deported him.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Having served his time for a heroin thing. And then we've organized for him to be arrested overseas, but now we don't want him back. So I mean, it's all very strange and yet to be seen what happens with Kaz and, and people, high profile. Some people like that. But um it, it, the globalization means that the, the criminals pulling the strings could be anywhere in the world.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And if, if they see the opportunity to make money here, that they could have no association with this country. But hey, there's a, a market there for illegal tobacco.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Um, and that gets very hard to, hard to enforce. It ma- makes a difference. I suppose finishing up talking about the tobacco wars, what it started about, the main goal should be reducing smoking rates. That uh above everything else.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  Like.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  So everyone's on that, on the same side.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  We, we all agree with that.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  We all agree with that.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  We all break up in the different ways of doing that.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  About it.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  And you know, what frustrates me is that we've gone down this law enforcement only response.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  And that's been driven by health authorities with no experience or expertise in it. And if you ask the law enforcement bodies, like the Victoria Police or New South Wales Police or the Border Force, they'll say, no, we need to fix the policy. Cause we're not gonna overcome the, overcome the size of this, um, just, just arresting people. So there's a bit of a disconnect there.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Okay, we've finished up with the Tobacco Wars. You've certainly enlightened me on to what the whole thing is about and the complexities of it and the different ways of approaching it. But let's flick back to your career, I'm not going to let this opportunity pass by. An Australian police officer has been stationed in Pakistan for three years. Tell us about what your role was, what you can, don't reveal any methodology or anything that shouldn't be known, but what your position there and what your role is there? Because I think that's fascinating, the type of work that you would have been doing there as an AFP officer.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the AFP's got people stationed all over the world. That particular... And their job is to create liaisons with the local authorities so that if cases come up that need evidence collected in that part of the world, that you've got access to the police and other agencies that can go and help you do that. But you also want to develop capacity in some of those countries that might need some assistance from a developed country like Australia. And basically you're out there, because the AFP have over 80% of their cases have got an international element to them. So there was always something going on.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  But Pakistan was one of the first countries the AFP put officers into. And when it first started back in the 80s or 90s, 80s I think, it was because cannabis resin was a thing. It was a... We got imported by the tonne load to Australia and the AFP were concerned about that and trying to set up shop over there to stop that. But we became less concerned about that and perhaps there became less of it, I don't know. But by the time I got there in 2003, it was, as you say, just after September 11.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And the Iraq War started just at the start of 2003, I think the first one. That caused a bit of angst. There were all sorts of terrorist organisations in Pakistan. Like Lashkar Toiba, we had, people smuggling became a serious issue in Australia. That was the start of sort of sovereign borders. A lot of people were coming through Pakistan, India via Sri Lanka to Australia. So that was in my patch. And the AFP had, used to have two offices over there, but when I went there, they decided to downgrade it to one. So I was over there.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Makes it a bit lonely.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  So I was over there by myself and I got sick of sending cables back saying, um, there's a bit going on over this part of the world.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  So I'm just trying to think the, the, the dynamics. I've liaised with AFP, you know, stationed in areas, areas like that. But did you have any staff or?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a, a local guy who was a former copper, who was, um, sort of my eyes and ears. As to what's going on and I, yeah, had a PA as well.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  And they gave you an office?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he gave me an office in the embassy. So, um, it's a high commission in, uh, in Islamabad. So I would just live out in the suburbs.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Were you over there on your own or have had family?

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they, because of the war and because of the general threat level, they didn't allow me to take my partner over there, which was a bit of a blow to that relationship, but, um.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but it's, it's only three years, I'll be back.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that didn't really wash, but, um, it was an interesting time in Pakistan. It was obviously tense, um, you know, as I say, Al Qaeda was, uh, everywhere. There were terrorists getting arrested in, in towns all over Pakistan. I was there to make, to facilitate access to any Australians that might have been caught up in any of those raids. Fortunately, there was sort of an unwritten law between the terrorists and the Pakistani government that they wouldn't.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Blow up any diplomats in Islamabad?

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say, like, did you have security with you or did you?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, I had two guards on my front door, but I was just out in a, in a normal suburb.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're potentially very vulnerable.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I got a, a dog, Harry, uh, who was a black dog because Pakistanis don't like black dogs. So he was probably my, even though he would just lick them to death, he was probably my main security weapon. Now, I, I sort of, uh, fluff over the security, but it was, it was tense. I mean, I remember, you know, I would drive to work every day and the car'd get checked for bombs, both on the way coming home and going to work. In most places you go, and it'd be checked for bombs. If I was to just drive down to the street to get a carton of milk or something, every time I came back to the car,

• 39:40Speaker 01

  and I don't want to sound overly dramatic, but every time I came back there and turned the key, I'd think about it.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Which is not a fun way to live, but, you know, it was just a momentary thought in the back of my head that, uh, there are people out there that weren't all that happy with Westerners. Um, but as I was, it was, I was reasonably protected at that time because there was this unwritten agreement. But just as I was leaving at the end of two thousand and five, the Americans decide to go in and blow up the camps in the border regions of Pakistan. Um, and that, and they tore up that agreement. So just as I was leaving, uh, the Marriott Hotel got blown up in Islamabad, which was two hundred metres from my house. Um, there was a restaurant that had grenades thrown over the wall and an American had her hand blown off.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  And it started to get a bit nasty and that was a good time to be leaving.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Hmm, hmm. Oh, it's, it's interesting, interesting work. I, I suppose when you join the police, you never expected to be stationed in, uh, in Pakistan.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  No, no, I'd probably hardly ever heard of Islam about, but I became familiar with that part of the world quite quickly.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Was it a good experience? Like you, you talk about the, the risks and the potentially loneliness when you, you, you're there on your own and I would have been pissed off. You're going with your partner or as in a work partner as well and then no, you're one, one out.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, from a work perspective, um, it couldn't have been better. It was just so challenging. I was, you know, working seven days a week around the clock. There wasn't much else to do, frankly, in, but it probably took some bark off me mentally.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Cause it was, it was hard yacka over there. But yeah, as soon as I left the post, the AFP put five or six people into the post.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  You, you're blowing your own trumpet here. That's how I worked enough for five, five or six people.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  There was enough work there for that many people.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  I, I, I could, I could, chaotic place. I had a deportation that I was asked to do to take someone back to Pakistan. We never made it there. We got kicked off the plane before it even took off because he didn't want to go back to Pakistan, but that's a story in itself. But I remember when the travel arrangements were being made, they're saying there's no way we're going to let you guys stay in Pakistan. It's just too high, high risk at, at that stage. So you would have been, uh, yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. You, you sort of get to know what the risk is and, um.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Do you have any powers there? Like what, what's a, it's basically a, you, you don't have any authority there. You're passing information on or assessing things. Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely none. That's why it's good to make friends with the locals. And, uh, and they were good. They looked after me. They were all, you know, uh, certainly the hierarchy that I spoke to were, you know, extremely well educated and, um, very good at their job. And, uh, we're always there for you. So that was, that was helpful.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. A great experience. What, what about dealing with, uh, what's his name? Jihad Jack? What, uh, how did you cross paths there? He, he'd been apprehended before you got there?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, just the week before. So I saw that in the paper here with like everyone else and. I realised that he was being held in Islamabad or near there by the intelligence agencies of Pakistan.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  And I realised that that was gonna be my primary job. So quickly, you know, it was quickly came to realise who pulls the strings over there. And it was the intelligence agencies run a lot of the country through the military. And the American intelligence agency was over there. They had quite a bit of access and power as well. So it was good to be friends with them. But Jack was arrested. They didn't really like having foreigners locked up in their prisons because they realised that there was gonna be quite a few of them coming. And they wanted to get rid of him. But we didn't just wanna let Jack get on a plane

• 43:39Speaker 01

  and come back to Australia because he'd allegedly done some pretty awful things. And

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Just for for people aren't familiar with it, the information was that he he went over there to fight.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Oh, to be trained at least. Yeah. And he was alleged to have met Osama.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  And alleged when he was captured.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Osama, who was just living down the road when you were.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  No, this was back when Osama was in Afghanistan and running, running training camps before September 11. So Jack went over there then. But yeah, he was sort of just a wannabe terrorist, Jack. So he was, I won't say he was had a good heart and meant well. But he did meet some pretty, pretty ordinary humans over there.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Was it interesting? And only what you can discuss, I would imagine you had a lot of conversations with him and the ideology, did he believe, believe in what he was doing? Or was it?

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I didn't actually speak to him directly. So there's other AFP officers came over and my role as liaison was to get access to him, which I did. But then he wanted and pursuant to Australian laws and part one day and all that, the part one. So he

• 44:57Speaker 01

  He wanted access to a lawyer and the Pakistanis wouldn't allow that because they didn't understand that giving those sort of rights to people. But then while I tried to explain to them that, well, if we don't, then whatever he says probably won't be admissible back here. And anyway, that's what turned out to happen where he got to Supreme Court back in Melbourne and his interview was thrown out on the basis of the Pakistanis wouldn't give him a lawyer. And so he became a free man. But but the ideology was, you know, front and centre over there. I remember having a lunch with the ISI, it's their inter-services intelligence agency. And they had all these people locked up who were completely brainwashed about extremist

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Islamic rhetoric. And this guy was telling me, I've only been there for about a week. So I was just getting to feel for the culture. And he said, oh, you know, this guy was due for release. And I said to him, if we release you, what are you going to do? He said, I'm just going to try and blow up some Westerners. I'll just kill anyone I can. And he's gone, oh, okay. So and he said, so we had to kill him. And go, oh, so like, what do you do with people like that? He said, oh, well, we had to kill him because there was nowhere else to go. And I thought, oh, this is quite a tough culture over here in Pakistan.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Different world, isn't it?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Different world. And there was all sorts of things that we would consider cruel and unusual in a Western society, but a pretty standard practice over there. So it was fascinating.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would imagine. And I just think it's, these are the opportunities that you can get in joining the police. Another case that you're involved in heavily, and it was the first foreign bribery case. Do you want to tell us about that? Because that's another sort of twist in a police career that you wouldn't expect.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  No, although it sort of did fit my expertise at the time because I was, yeah, had that international experience with Pakistan. And then a few years later, or after I did a stint with recruit training in Canberra, I came back to Melbourne and there was that all for food job that had, um, there was, I think there was a Royal Commission or some sort of hearing about that where evidence was collected that, and that was the first foreign bribery job that came to the AFP, I think, and that, that people were talking about. And the, the foreign bribery legislation only came in in 1999. So before that was just standard business practice to bribe whoever you needed to, to get the job done. But, um, the world decided that that was no longer a good thing to do. So

• 47:33Speaker 00

  So the, the legislation is to prevent someone here bribing someone overseas or someone overseas bribing someone

• 47:41Speaker 01

  No, bribing people overseas.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Okay. So it's, I'm, I'm an Australian position of power.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  And I'm bribing someone overseas. And the legislation focused on the person in Australia committing the bribery offence.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And the AFP didn't have a lot of expertise, had no expertise because we'd never had a case of that before. So, and we hadn't really turned our mind to it very much. So the all for food case sort of went through to the keeper, um, without too many questions being asked about that. Um, but there was concern. And then I think the OECD who oversaw Australia's response to that new legislation said, what's going on Australia? Why haven't you got any cases or prosecutions on hand? And so the next one that came up, cut a long story short, how it came through whistleblowers and so on, the, it was Securency and Note Printing Australia, who were

• 48:33Speaker 01

  two reserve bank companies, were alleged to be bribing countries overseas in order to sell their polymer banknote technology.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  And to be fair, we sat on that for quite some time until it was on the front page of the Age newspaper once that day morning. And then all of a sudden it became the AFP's

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Primary.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Primary job. But still, we took another six months to work out what to do about that. And then all of a sudden I was in a position, sitting in a superintendent's chair where they asked me to take over. The job and asked me, what would you do? And I said, well, we'd need about twenty investigators because it was huge. And, um, and we actually have to go and do some warrants on this place, which wasn't the done thing on a reserve bank premise sort of thing. And eventually, so cut along, so I got my way and that investigation went on for a couple of years. Um, we have to shifted through, I think it was ninety million documents off the computer system and

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Massive.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  We found that they were bribing various countries around the world. Um, we charged most of the directors of note printing in Australia and security with the crime. Uh, well, some of them were convicted, some weren't. The company themselves pleaded guilty to the first foreign bribery convictions and they paid over twenty million dollars in fines. So, yeah, that was the first.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  A large, large scale, like big, big money exchange in hands.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Huge money. Um, people, yeah, being bribed in the millions overseas in order to just get contracts with these banknotes. And they only did it because the other big banknote manufacturers, like the Bank of England and the American Bank of America were bribing them previously. So they had to out bribe them to, to get into the market. So, um, not that that's an excuse, but, uh, that's, um, just how it was in that, in that part of the world.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Oh, it's, it's interesting to, uh, to take on an investigation of that magnitude because it's not the type of thing you normally get involved in. And when you're dealing with heavy hitters, people with money, you get the big law firms coming in too. So I can imagine that there was a lot of pressure on, uh, proving the, uh, proving the case.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I was in the witness box for three weeks with, with twelve, with twelve QC's questioning me, representing their clients. That was, uh, a bit stressful, I've got to say. In fact, I did it more than once because there was a committal and then a trial. But, um, I mean, one of the most stressful things was dealing with our fellow agencies. So, I mean, the foreign affairs department's job is to make friends with. With leaders overseas.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  And I would imagine some countries that would be, well, this is what we do.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh yeah, it's, well, corruption is far more commonplace in most of these countries than it is in Australia. In fact, it's just standard business practice. So when we were looking to lay these allegations and make, make statements about leaders in other countries, that was difficult and foreign affairs were nervous about where we're going to upset our friendships. But anyway, so there was a bit of a, bit of a battle going on there.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  I can imagine. And now I think you've taken the title three weeks in the witness box under cross examination. We've had a lot of.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  That was no fun.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  Ex cops on here and I don't think any of us could put our hands up to three weeks. I've done almost a week in a witness box, but three weeks, Jesus.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's.

• 52:05Speaker 00

  That's pressure. It's, it's not fun regardless of whether you've done anything wrong.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  It's just, you're, you're in there and people are being paid a lot of money to trip you up and make you look stupid or find a hole in your.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Which they probably did.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Um, but no, it was.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Don't you hate that? You think you're prepared for it and then they ask you a question. You think, shit, that's a good question.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  No, that was no fun. But that job then led to me sort of being the operational superintendent of all the AFP's fraud.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  And corruption jobs. So I went to Canberra then.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  For a year and I oversaw all of those sort of jobs. So that was probably the most satisfying time in my career there.

• 52:44Speaker 00

  Oh, very good. What are you doing with yourself now?

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Um, I consult on illicit trade.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  So, uh, as I say, I've been going around the world telling countries not to do what we've done.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And whoever needs some advice about what is going on here, retailers, law enforcement, um, even public health people, councils have been charged with doing this. Of course, the industry itself want advice on what's going on in their industry. Uh, yeah, I just consult and get engaged and it's given me purpose in life.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Um, even though I sort of semi-retired after the. Border Force years, uh, this has really brought me back in because it was something that I was invested in at the time and I was saying it was a thing and now it's become a huge thing and um I'm sort of well placed to talk about it from my previous background.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Well, I hope you continue to uh talk about it because you're you're very well informed and I can see you're passionate about it and have have some uh yeah, what I consider uh pretty good ideas on on how it should be approached, a complex uh complex issue. One other thing I just want to finish with, across the country, people are struggling, law enforcement agencies, whether it be state, federal or whatever, to attract new recruits. If uh someone was asking you, would you um join the police, do it all over again? What would you, law enforcement, what would uh what would you say?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say it's a great job. I uh enjoyed going to work every day, never not wanted to go. It's what you make of it a bit. I wanted to be a particular type of police person, not on the streets, not breaking up violent pub brawls and doing street work like state police do and um and at the start certainly. And uh that never really thrilled me, but the AFP had non-uniform jobs in sort of detective roles where you were just trying to outsmart criminals and and I sort of had a particular bent for fraud there at the end and um but that was my thing, just trying to catch crooks.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  But there are a hundred different lines that people can go through in in both state and federal police. And um yeah, I'd encourage them to do so. So you you'll find something that you'll enjoy, I'm sure.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  That's the beauty of it, the diversity. Like, there there is so many different paths you can go down in in law enforcement. So it's it's open up there. So I put that at the end when I know someone that's enjoyed their time in police because uh yeah, if people are listening, it's a it's a great career. You've said you enjoy it every day, you go to work. I say that quite so many times, that was the way I I looked at it. Um, we'll wrap it up now. Thanks uh thanks for your time. Thanks for uh being passionate on an important issue and uh and explaining to us what it's about. And thanks for your time as a law enforcement officer and all the best for the future.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Uh, thanks for your service too.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Cheers.