Deciding which killers walk free: Jessica Brown Pt. 2

Before her brother Eden was murdered, Jessica Brown was already fighting for social change. She had dedicated her career to helping disadvantaged girls, giving them a chance to break the cycle of destitution and abuse through mentoring, education and crisis intervention. Then Edan was killed, and everything she thought she understood about violence, loss and justice suddenly became very personal. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Jessica takes us inside her fight for change through her work with Sister to Sister, Warrior Women, and the NSW Serious Offenders Review Council. But that's not all. As you'll know if you're a regular listener of the podcast, Anthony Jones, the man who murdered Eden, has been released from prison. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Before her brother Eden was murdered, Jessica Brown was already fighting for change in the justice system. She already dedicated her career to helping disadvantaged girls, giving them a chance to break the cycle of destitution and abuse through mentoring, education, and crisis intervention. Then Eden was murdered, and everything she thought she understood about violence, loss, and justice suddenly became very personal. In this episode, she takes us inside her fight for change through her work with Sister to Sister and Warrior Woman, along with the work she does on the Serious Offenders Review Board. But that's not all. As you know, if you're a regular listener of the podcast,

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Anthony Jones, the man who murdered Eden, has been released from prison. Hear what Jessica has to say about it. Jessica Brown, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Well, we got through part one, and I hope it wasn't too tough.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  I was a bit emotional, but yeah.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  I know it's a hard subject matter when we're talking about the murder of your brother, but...

• 1:53Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  A- as I said, I I think it's remarkable how you're processing it and the work that you're doing that we're going to talk about now. But I suppose when we think of your brother, how do you think he'd be looking down at us now and and what you're doing and?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was so proud of what I was doing. He was, and him and his mate, you know, if I was ever in the article or in the newspaper or anything like that, he'd cut it out and put it up. And so, yeah, he was really, really proud of his big sis.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Um, I think now he'd be looking down now and being, um, he would love, be a bit chuffed that he is still being talked about.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  And also that I've started, you know, my second charity to be able to help young, young women, you know, to help them turn their lives around so that they don't end up on a really, really negative trajectory and end up having children and lose them to foster care system and, you know, boys and girls. So.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  Cycle just continues. Yeah.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  It's like a revolving door. So.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Um, which is also helping boys and girls, you know, like A J. He, you know, from his story, for those people who've watched the podcast, would know that he had, you know, he was up against it since, from day dot.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Well, I think the the type of work that you were doing before what happened to Eden and then seeing the impact that A J's actions had on your family and had on you, and then realising that the work that you're doing could possibly steer people away. We're finishing off part one. We're talking about how as a school teacher and I don't know, that just made me feel sad, but also happy for for the kid that, you know, you showed a bit of interest in at school and turned his life around. And now you get discounts at J B.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  How cool is that?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I know. He's a beautiful kid. Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  But, okay, you're a school teacher. When did you decide to make the big, big move? And how did that occur?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  As I said, I loved, I taught out in the Western Sydney for ten years.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  So I probably taught Glocken Schpiel to some, some underworld kids. True story.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably have.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I, um, yeah, I, I had this entrepreneurial spark in me that wasn't going away. And I, for some reason, my, my dad was an entrepreneur and he had his own travel business for, for many, many years. So that spark was, I wanted to do more than teaching and I saw many y- young kids sort of dropping out of school and we wouldn't see them again or, and the welfare system as well. So I saw gaps. So I decided to start Sister to Sister where we matched at-risk teenage girls with mentors. And we helped them and support them through mentorship, but also education. Um, and so we would do school, uh, not school camps, but they were, they were camps.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  And it was a year-long program and we would give them these wonderful women who were there to support them, to guide them, to be their cheerleader and to give guidance. Many of the young women that we worked with don't, didn't have, they were identified as not having a strong female role model in their lives.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Um, some in jail as we, as we mentioned.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  How did you, how did you find the, the kids that you wanted to get on the program?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  So docs and facts. Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Okay. So you, you literally out of the education system and, and starting this, uh, this business.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it was a full, uh, yeah, they were hardcore kids, especially young camp. Lots of fun stories.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  What, what ages and?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Thirteen to eighteen. I thought I'd stick with the ages that I knew, which was high school.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Age, yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Give, give us examples again without identifying the kid, but the examples where you look back and think, yeah, we, it worked. We made the difference.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Oh, there's so many. What they would do is they would come to us at the very beginning of camp. We'd have four-day camps and they would literally be walking in and none of them knew each other or some did.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  And they'd be like, all right, who's going to be in my crew? Who's, who do I don't like? And, you know.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Who's a cool kid, who's a tough kid?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Who's, who's gonna, who's gonna give me grief and? Of course, you got them all in cabins together and they would, the first day they'd be a bit, you know, testing us out. And then the second day, they would learn to, because they didn't trust anyone. They're like, why, I keep saying to me, why are you being so nice to me? Because they thought you had some sort of ulterior motive.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  A lot of them are groomed, um, a lot of them, you know, bedtime's not safe, so night, night time duty, which I always did.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  I've, I've heard a lot of people who've been victims of um, childhood sexual abuse and see the same thing. Why anyone that's nice to me is trying to take something from me and that's.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  That's what they used to, I know.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  That's a horrible thing that's uh, implanted in their, their mind uh, by these uh, predators.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and that will always stick to me. And then, once they realised, you know, by day three, that we actually, literally, there is no ulterior motive. That we're literally there to support and, and they're used to having caseworkers as well, which um, and when they find out that their mentors are volunteers. They're like, oh, okay.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Okay. And what, what type of people were volunteering to be mentors and role models?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Um, mostly corporate women.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  So corporate women who may on, may not have had their own children, who didn't feel like they were um, have had that connection to community. I mean, a lot of them were mums as well, but for corporate world where they felt like, oh, you know, cutthroat, had a lot, a lot of lawyers and bankers and things like that. Where they felt, you know, I'm not really contributing to the community.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I can un- understand the uh, the, the attraction to uh, helping out like that.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  And very competent women as well, who, um, we obviously gave them extensive training, you know, so that they were equipped, because they're pretty hardcore kids. But also, again, they would buck up and, you know, I had them in camps, um, you know, setting curtains on fire and, and. I learnt what huffing was for the first time. I had no idea what huffing was. Like, the whole room could have died because they all decided to huff. You know, for anyone who doesn't know what huffing is, it's breathing in asphyxiating toxins from an aerosol can. Yeah, so they definitely kept us on our toes.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  And what was the reward and punishments? Like, how did you manage that? Like, I know, yeah, I'm thinking if it's a boys' camp, the men would be standing there, you're in for it, you know, without laying a hand on them. But the threat, but with girls can be harder because girls sometimes they don't respond to the threat of violence. And so they just throw it back at you. So what, how did you control them?

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Um, I think just having boundaries, really, really strong boundaries for them. And, and just again, you know, that your behaviour is not you, not happy with your behaviour, pulling them aside and just knowing that they are here, they're, you know, they're severe trauma and stuff like that. And so the mentors stepped in and, you know, were there to support and guide them. But yeah, we had some, we had some fun times. We had a great team that I worked with and we would, we'd call it seamless, you know, when there was, when everything was going to shit. Yep, that's seamless. I just had this wonderful team, you know, a lot of them who worked in frontline, um, SES and Ambulance Australia. And so I had some really tough team leaders.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Who, um, so each of, each of them had, the girls that we had, had a mentor and then they, then the mentor had a team leader. And these were pretty, one from the army as well. So we had some pretty tough, um, yeah. So I think it was just, uh, but having, keeping them busy was really, really important to keep them busy so that they couldn't, you know, escape.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, literally, yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  We did have one try once, but the campsite where we were at is quite remote. So it wasn't really far for them to go.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  What, um, what sort of changes did you see in the, the girls during these programs?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Uh, it was transformational by the end of day four.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Really? In four days?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yep, absolutely. Where they just, we just immersed them in fun.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  We would do, you know, a holiday of skit night, like the teams would do dance routines, like things like that. Uh, but you know, um, we had a corporate challenge that came out and did activities with them. And then we would have some. Motivational speakers.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Um, but, but ones that had, had lived experience.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Who've turned their lives around. And so by the end of the four days, they just love, it's like a love fest where they all just love each other. They love their mentors and they're really, really excited for the twelve months ahead.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Uh, okay. So the four days is, okay, this is what's on offer. Get, let them have a taste. And then you've, you've got a twelve, twelve month program continues on.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  What sort of things do you do with them over that twelve month period?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Uh, cyber safety, um, body image, um, consent, a lot of setting goals and achieving them.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  So we'd get a lot of Olympians out who would talk about goals and things like that to motivate them. So, but a lot of keeping them busy. But yeah, we had just an amazing, amazing response from that program.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  And where, where did you take the kids from? Well, like after the four days and, and the ongoing stuff, where, where were the kids?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  We would have act, we would have activities.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  So we'd do the educational part in the morning.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  And then we'd do something like in the afternoon, like rock climbing or.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Um, Luna Park or, you know, something to get them there.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  That was the law to get them there, um, to do something fun. Cause these, a lot of these young women just didn't have, you know, a lot of them had not even been over the Harbour Bridge before.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that, that was their home, home environments just didn't provide the things that you were providing.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  So at, at the end of camp, we, we would get a lot of disclosures.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Um, so obviously being mandatory reporters, um, we have to, have to report that. So. So a lot of, as I said, most of the girls came from docs and facts.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  But then there was some, I had one who was part of, and her sister had gone through the program.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  One of fourteen children, all from one, all from mum and dad, same mum, mum and dad. And I had to get them all removed. Like it's just the whole, whole family.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Removed. So that didn't go well because she had disclosed.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  What was going on. So it varied. I mean, we had some really loving parents.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  But we had young carers as well. So young, some young women who were caring for their parents who had mental illness.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they, these are, this is a side of life unless. It impacts on on you personally, you don't even think about like there there would be uh kids out there looking looking after their their parents, whether it's drug dependency, alcohol or yeah, mental health.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, or or looking after siblings as well, ones where they just mum's not quite with it and has been on a bender and is now asleep for three days, you know, and they're, you know, going through cupboards trying to find food.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  And it it is quite often, and I I don't know what's in our makeup, the boys compared to the girls, but it is quite often the girls that take up that uh that responsibility, isn't it?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. But um yeah, the mentors played a really, they play a really integral part in it. Our mentors are just incredible.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  When uh when they finish the the the program, do they get any acknowledgements or is there any ongoing communications or contacts that you have with them?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  So ninety percent of, in terms of sister to sister, ninety percent of our mentors continue to support them beyond the program. And that was a longitudinal study that we did after ten years.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, so.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Okay, well, that says something, doesn't it?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Everyone, that that connection's there, and that's strong.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm and I'm on Facebook with half of them as well. There's hundreds of them, so.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  I I get a sense of how busy busy you are, and that would be part of it. So how many how many uh young girls have gone through the program?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Uh, sister to sister, uh, was about three hundred that went through, because we would only have small groups.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Of twenty five, so there'd be twenty five mentors, twenty five mentees, and then a team of sort of ten. So um that was enough for a camp to manage, because they were tough cases. Um, and then we'd have psychs. But um that that that was Sydney and Victoria.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  That we ran it. Uh, we we ran it out in Warriby area in Western Sydney, where there was a lot of need.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Um, so yes, we've we've done Sydney and Victoria.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  And with that many girls going through over that long a period, have you seen the success from it, from the success stories?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Give us a couple of success stories.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  The best thing?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  They become great mothers.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  You can see them, that they've become great mothers, um.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  And gone on to university.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  And or, you know, got got jobs.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  You know, didn't end up jail.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  That's, yeah, so there's lots of varying degrees, but the thing that touches my heart is that they've gone on to be very good mothers.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  And that that's that's important because, you know, like a good mother, a good father as well, we should should say, but like a good mother can be so grounding for the family.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  We do a lot around, you know, relationships, what are the red flags of a bad relationship, a good relationship. And that's kind of carried on to the Warrior Woman as well.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  It's just more of a mature aged group.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  So what was the evolution to Warrior Women?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Um, after seventeen years, I it was spurred on by Eden's death.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  I after seventeen years of running that, I wanted to do, obviously that entrepreneurial spark. But I had so many girls coming into the office, um, used to have a an office up here at Elizabeth Street for seventeen years. And the girls, once they got to eighteen, would come in and they'd want help with stuff. And they'd come unannounced all the time. Can you help me with my tax file now? Can you help me with this? I've just been, you know, um, foster care ended, I've just turned eighteen. So I always knew that gap was there. But then I did a bit of research and it is one of the most unserved gaps, apart from vulnerability of older women at fifty five becoming close to being homeless, but one of the most underserved gaps.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And so I obviously knew that I knew how to um run a mentor. So so started a more mature mentoring program.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  So this is where they might be in home home care, foster care or whatever, they turn eighteen. You said it's gone to twenty twenty one now, but they've, okay, we've done all we can for you. You've got all your life skills now, regardless of what your life skills are. And we turf you out and then they end up the homeless or, you know, addicted to something or in prison.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  In invariably. So, okay, so you've Warrior Woman. How just how do you fund these programs like?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  A lot of um writing grants.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  And doing fundraising events and things like that. So that now I spend a lot of time doing that.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  I would imagine you you'd have to, but I I would hope with the type of program that the money, yeah, people could see the sense in it. And we come come back down to monetary considerations, how much it is to keep these kids in custody.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Exactly, compared to what.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  What you're you're doing.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  So.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  So yeah, we based the program on the self determination theory, which is really, so we did a lot of evidence research around it. And so we, we do the, the connection to community, which is something that they're missing. And then like all the life skills, the way I describe it, every, every skill that I wish I learnt when I left home at eighteen. And then, and then mental health support. So we do all, all three of those.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And we, we have a real strong focus on financial literacy. Because one of the fastest growing cohorts in Australia is women fifty five, who, you know, may be going through divorce and becoming close to homelessness.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  And so we've got a real housing crisis, as you know, you do for, for these women. And what, what I don't want them to do is to become one of those statistics.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  So you're, you're just trying to educate on financial independence and.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I mean, if they know how to manage them, a, a lot of them may come to us and say, oh, I let someone else manage that. No. And we teach them about the red flags of financial abuse.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And it's, it is a bit hard sometimes to get them excited about tax and super. Because yeah, let's face it, I, I don't get excited about that either.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  Well, no one likes, likes tax and they're super, it's not until you get older where you think, oh, they were right when they told you to sign those forms.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Years and years ago.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, so we're trying to teach them all the life skills to be able to stand on their own two feet. But the number one thing, and going back to what you said before, is education.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Or employment.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  So we're very, very much around, you know, helping them get entry level. We're partnered with L'Oreal, um, Cara Stars.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Um, so, and, and we have really strong affiliations with Westpac, um, who do a lot of our financial literacy sessions as well. So really trying to partner with them and Optus as well.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Um, the girls get, each of them get a twelve month subscription free.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  For their phone so that they can keep connected with their mentors. Cause you know, sometimes they're always, you know, I'm out of credit and blah, blah, blah. So.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I know, I know the type that, but, um, yeah, edu- education, employment. And to me, it, it's a lot about self-esteem too.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  And that's what education can, uh, can bring. And, and we don't all have to be, yeah, university graduates, but just have, have a level of, uh, education that you feel comfortable in, in conversing and, you know, doing all the things that you need to do.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Um, we've, we've got one young woman who, um, grew up in out of home care.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  And an indigenous girl, beautiful girl, um, nominated by her school teacher. And, uh, who's nominated quite a few of the young ones to, to our program. And she is now studying criminology.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Canberra University and we got her a scholarship to university.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Oh, how fantastic.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  So.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  It's, that's just one, just one of the many, the, yeah, because they are older, we've got more of a success rate. Like with the sister to sister, it was more keeping them on the tra- on the track.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Keeping them at school.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Whereas now it's, you know, what are you doing for, for a job? Uh, because, you know, if they do find themselves in situations of coercive control.

• 19:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Or, um, financial abuse or end up having to leave a situation with children. That they know they've got that confidence in themselves that they can hold down a job. They've got an education, um, and, you know, be able to, to carry themselves.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  I, I hate seeing that and you, you see it a lot where, where women are trapped for a variety of reasons in, in relationships or in, in circumstances that they haven't got the confidence or the financial backing to actually step away and, and look after, uh, uh, look after themselves and, and step away from something that's a bit, uh, toxic. So all, uh, all good stuff. How, how do you identify the people for, uh, Warrior Women?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Uh, so there, uh, a lot of self nominations.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  It's a cool name, by the way.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Thank you. I like my, like my logo.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  I see your logo.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I got a, I got a tattoo of it on my leg.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  Oh, very cool.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Just recently. Um, so, um, that's commitment, right?

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, full commitment.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Don't, oh, mum will kill me. Mum said no tattoos. Eden, Eden had a lot of tattoos.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Did he?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  And she's like, don't you dare get one. So that I've just, the cat's out of the bag now. Sorry, mum.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Warrior, Warrior Woman, okay.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Um. So, yeah, um, caseworkers still, a lot of self nominations, or we have a partnership now with the University of Western Sydney.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  And so there's, there's um, young women who are, who are at risk of falling, dropping out of university, who've, who've started university, but have still going through the trauma of their childhood.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Um. So, yeah, trying to um, headspace, a lot of them through headspace.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Different other services um, that we've connected with. So, yeah, it really varies.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  And you talked about the indigenous girl that's now studying criminology. What, what are some other examples you've got in the warrior women that uh, someone that's come in and their life for all intents and purposes, heading in the wrong direction and managed to turn it, turn it around?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I think the ones with um, severe mental health issues. Um. And I, when I say severe, like suicidal ideation and things like that. So I think the, giving them the opportunity to get therapy around that. We have some amazing therapists during our um, during the course. So obviously it's all about education and we cover that, that pillar of mental health. Is helping them to manage those feelings and thoughts and that, that might impede on them being able to hold down a job or or study or, or things like that. So I think there's a, there's a lot of.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  That mental health treatment comes into play through Warrior Women. You, you have psychologists on, on board for it.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  We do have psychologists. Um. We also link them in to a whole range of services as well. So we, we are a link in the chain, but.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Because that's the other thing. People don't know what services are available to them either.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a lot out there, varying ones. Um. A lot of the social entrepreneurs I know who've started them up and, and are running them. Um. So it's really about educating. That's what we do. The very beginning of the program is we go, these are the services that you, you, and we get, we train the mentors, like we're literally in the process of training the mentors. They just did lifeline training on Saturday. And we give them all the resources should their, you know, their mentor ring them up, you know, God knows what hour.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Um, and say, all right, these are the services you need to ring because we want them to become independent. We want them to, to be able to, you know, but we're there to support them.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  But the good thing about Warrior Woman is we've just gone national.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Which is amazing. So we.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  So started off in New South Wales.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, New South Wales, Sydney, Greater Sydney. And then, um, we branched out to Newcastle last year.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  And so now we're, we're going national, which is fantastic. So, and, um.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  If, if someone wants to, uh, get, uh, get involved or, or reach out or, or just find out what it's about, how, how do they find you?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  From our website. So Warrior Woman or social media. Just follow us on social media. That's what a lot of the young ones do on Insta. Uh, but it's warriorwoman.org.au.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And so how long's that been running for now?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Six years.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  I started it in COVID, Fe- February twenty twenty. Great timing.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Don't mention those years. Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  I know. It's, uh, great timing, Jess.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so we've been running, um, the, the programs for six years and we've had some really big philanthropists back us, which, which has been, like, it's still a hard slog getting funding. So if there's any philanthropists out there listening, we still need lots of money.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Do the pitch. Do the pitch. We're on a true crime, uh, podcast. Let's, let's get it, get it, get it out there.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  The more money, the more money we have, the more girls. It's three thousand dollars per girl.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  To put them through the program. So the more money we have, the more girls we can help.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  And, and you see, you see the benefits at the end of it. You've been doing it six years now. So you were the same people go through the, the system.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  We had, we have young women that come back as, uh, in a leadership role called Kindred Warriors.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  And we had this amazing, amazing young woman who could not live at home. And I met her in a refuge in the Northern Beaches.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  And she, um, she was just recently on TV for us. Um, she, um, had, was living with a caseworker and she. She was actually studying law, so she was very smart, but she could not live at home because of a lot of circumstances outside of her control. And so she was able to, she was nominated for the program.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  So I remember going out to this youth service. Um, it was a crisis, she was living there. And um, she has just gone on to strength to strength to strength. She's gone on to study overseas, exchange student for her studies in Canada. And she's now come back as this extraordinary young leader who is just rounding up all the girl, the young women and just, you know, we just did, we've done some incredible fundraisers and she, when she speaks, you can hear a pin drop.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Just incredible.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Impressive, impressive people.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, to go from living in a refuge.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  To finishing a law degree and.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  And you think of the changes that makes exponentially, like one, one person, but now she's influencing other people and.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  She's a young leader.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  This is the ripple effect of getting someone's life in, in the right direction. Or the alternative is we just uh, don't worry about it. And when they fall foul of the law, we're going to lock them up and, and put them inside and spend a great deal of money and have them come out and do the same thing.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  It's uh, it's impressive and good on you for, for doing it. Do the politicians um, support it? Like I know at the breakfast at State Parliament, you got an invite there, so they're, they're listening, but you're getting the support that you think people fully understand the benefits of what can be done.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  There's more work to be done. I've got my local politician, um, elector, spender, um, Tanya Plubasek has been a, a great supporter of us as well, especially with Sister to Sister as well. So she, she's um, and then I've got a friend who ran for the House of Representatives, Savannah Peak, who, who um. It's not well known, but she will be, she could be Prime Minister one day. Um, so, yeah, so, so getting there.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  Okay, well, get, getting, getting the message out.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Um, okay, so in your not so busy life, and I'm being sarcastic there, extremely busy. How did you find yourself on the Serious Offenders Review Board?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Well, I, I was looking at board jobs because I was like, okay, I'm fifty five now.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  I was like, I probably should start, because, because I'm not busy enough. Um, start looking at, you know, maybe getting on some, actually, that's what it was. I applied for the New South Wales Women, uh, Women's Board. And they said, they actually wrote back to me and said, very impressive, you know, he, you know, working with women and girls.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  But, you know, the people that we ended up taking are on at least two or three boards.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  And I don't even have been on my board for, for that long, so, um. I thought, oh, okay, and they recommended that I actually, you could do a board search and you get these alerts of when they come up. And a lot of them are for, um, things that I wasn't that interested or, or wouldn't have benefited.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Given, you know, didn't really interest me. And then the Serious Review Council came up and I was like, hell, yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  So, tell, tell people, tell people what that is, those that might know, I, I obviously know, but you, you tell people.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Um, so the Serious Offenders Review Council is an independent board that gives, um, advice to corrections. And, and the bail board, basically, we're governed by the minister who, um, who appointed us all and there's. There's, it's made up of three parts. We've got judicial staff, which are on the committee. And they are people who've been on the bench, basically, or still on the bench, or, but most of them are retired, um, judges and, and, and, um. Then we've got the community group, which is where I fall under.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  And then we've got another correctional staff.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Or could be current correctional staff or which have been appointed by the commissioner and stuff like that. So, so there's three types of people that are on the board. Our job is to um obviously give that independent advice to them as to the classifications and recommendations of inmates.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And to see, basically to see whether they're behaving, whether they're heading towards, you know, getting out on parole. Should their parole period be coming up soon.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Um so things like, uh so we interview them, we, so I've been out to quite a few jails to meet them.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  So, and uh without identifying the, the crime or, or, or the person, cause I imagine you would have been spe- speaking to some notorious people. How was it sitting down, yeah, actually speaking, speaking to them and, and knowing the, the crimes that they've committed? And but yeah, just from a, a personal point of view, first of all.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Um yeah, look, sometimes their persona don't, didn't ma- doesn't match your perception of what they've done as a crime. Without going into detail, but you know, you can have met, I've met serial killers, I've met murderers, I've met people who've been part of terrorism and stuff like that. And then um yeah, most of them men, but I've learnt, I learnt what a shib is.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I hope they didn't pull it on you.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  No, I thought, I thought, actually, my very first time, I thought that I was going to, they were going to be in shackles for some reason, but no, not at all.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Uh and yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  I, I think that confronts a lot of people in, in prison, like people think prison, okay, well, they're behind the bars. Now, when you're walking around in prison, you, you, oh, sorry, didn't mean to bump into you, the killer or, or whatever.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's uh, it would have been an, an experience for you, I'm sure.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  So, and, yeah, you say that the type of crimes you know these people have committed and then the persona they're putting across. That's scary in itself, isn't it?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Cause you want really bad people to look like really bad people.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  And it just.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And some of them do look, some are scary.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Some of them, some of them, yeah, fit the uh, the stereotype and they could be cast very much in their, their crime. But others, you, you look and think, okay, what, what crime did you commit?

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, psychopaths and sociopaths, which is grouped as antisocial behaviour. Um, they're very manipulative, so some of them can be very charming.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  And they're obviously talking to us as well, knowing that we're going to make recommendations. So they're kind of.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, so you you'd have to go in there because they they are manipulative or they can be. And and the charm, they can put to put that on on too. So you would have to be really have your guards up and alert of what's going on here.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And the fascinating part for me, because obviously the judicial staff are very well averse to, you know, the actual sentencing part of it. Um, the correctional staff are very much helpful in, you know, okay, they need to do, say, for example, violent offenders therapeutic programme, there's only certain jails that offer that course. Um, so they're really helpful in that way. And then for me, it was the psyche behind reading the psychology reports.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'm fascinated, which is why I love your podcast, fascinated with human behaviour.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Just to see what what made them, what was it? And, you know, a lot of childhood abuse, you know, no, no, um, you know, guessing there. Um, and a lot of mental health issues as well.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  So, yeah, fascinating stuff. But, yeah, it's the human behaviour that I really, that fascinated me the most.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  As to, you know, what made you do this crime?

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Did in in your conversations with them, again, without going into too much detail, but was part of it them acknowledging their crime to you? And this is how I've changed and, yeah, I don't even recognise the person I was 20 years ago when I committed this horrendous crime. What what sort of stuff comes out?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Let's just say AJ's a rarity from my experience.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Um, I think, look, I think there would be people who are completely remorseful. But, you know, and that's another thing that I. Is, you know, I do a lot of research on narcissistic personality disorder and all of that and to see whether they've got that remorse.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  A lot of them just wanna get out of there, to be honest. They just wanna get, they just wanna get it over and done with.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  We don't have that long to chat to them, but I think there's ones that do wanna get on the straight and narrow, you know, where we have to say to them, like, this ex judge that was on the committee, she was amazing.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Much more experienced than me and she would say, you know, you wanna get out of jail, mate, but you've, you know, you've got fifty two offences that you've done in the last twelve months, so.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  A younger guy, so, you know, things like that, but you check their urines as well.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, for the drugs or.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's part, all part of it as well, to see whether they've been on the straight and narrow and if they haven't, then that's a conversation that we have with them as well. So it's, yeah, it's, yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  It's a big, big role you're playing when you're talking someone's, someone's freedom. I always felt, yeah, you felt the pressure of it as a police officer, you had the power to arrest someone and impact on their life, what you're doing there. Were you conflicted at all because what you'd been through in your own family, was that, were you, the two sides of you, or did that make you better at doing that job?

• 34:24Speaker 01

  I would, I would always think about the victims.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Always. And we would have to read thousands and thousands of pages and it wasn't something that you could kind of just skim through because I felt like there's victims.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  And this is the impact it's had on the victims, this, yeah, okay. And, and the victims had a, had a place there, like the.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Not so much, they were listed, but.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not, not a place there, but did you have documentation of, of what the victims are feeling?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  No, no, no, we didn't have that at all. But it was, it's very much the, what had happened.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And, and also another thing that was really, really interesting is that we got to see whether they had visitors. You know, there's some in there who've been there for a very long time and some that don't wanna get out and then you have a look at their applications and if they've not had a visitor.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Visit them in twenty six years.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  People think this is strange, but I've I've seen a lot that people get institutionalised, to the point where jail is their life. They're a big, big man in jail. They've got a reputation or, you know, it could be a, a, a woman in jail and they've got their reputation. They've got their standing within that community. Then they get let out and they're just this homeless person that's, no one really knows or cares. And you're not the guy that survived twenty years in the toughest jail, that type of thing.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Saw a lot of that.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it's sad, isn't it? It's, well, it's depending on the crime they commit. I haven't gone, gone that soft, but yeah, you, you, you do see that, that people, that is their world that they know. And the point that you made about how many visitors, I think it's in the Nordic countries where they look after the prisoners' families, as strange as it sounds. Makes, make a big effort to keep the prisoners in contact with their families and actually help out the families while someone's inside. Because they've worked out that for someone, the chances of not re-offending, if you've got a family to come back to that you're still part of and the family's going well, less likely that you're going to end up back in, back in prison now.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  That makes perfect sense.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  But other people might argue it's counterintuitive. What, you're looking after the family of someone that's committed an offence who's in, in jail. But what most people don't understand, or they understand it's not that complicated, but I don't think appreciate is that most people in jail, of say ninety five percent, will get out of prison. Like, there's not that many people in there for life or that die, die in jail. So what we create in there, we're going to release back into society. And so it's in our interest to have a structure for them when they get out, get out of prison.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and that's one thing that, like I said before, you know, before everything happened and doing this work, I was very much, you know, throw them in, lock, lock away the key and let them stay there forever.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  So, but it's, yeah, they get out.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  And I'm glad you acknowledged that, like, I didn't think a lot about what happened in prison when I was in the cops, like, yeah, that, my job.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Was to put them in, yeah, lock them away.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  If they're in prison, who cares? But speaking to people that have been in prison and getting to know them quite well uh since I've left, left the police, it's given me a greater understanding of the importance of uh what goes in there. And it's another way of fighting crime, like the stuff that you're doing, preventing it. I think we can really, um, yeah, make a difference in crime, how we treat people in prisons.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know it's conflicting, there's gonna be people who have really conflicting, conflicting. And, you know, and I'm saying this from a homicide survivor, you know.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's right.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah, I think, I think it's, well, do we want them to re-offend? No. Just do I want anyone, this to happen to any other, anyone else's family? No.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Yes, that, that's, that's the point, that's the point we're trying to make. So if anyone's going, you two idiots, you, you're going soft and, yeah, they, they should be in there breaking rocks and eating, eating bread. We want less victims, if there's less criminals, there's less criminals. That, that's the way that we look at it.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  And they've got that, um, in the Hunter jail, they've got the pod, um, this is, you, you were part of this, yeah, breaking badness.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, Macquarie Correctional Centre, um, the, the work, and that was the prison I, I, I went to. I was really impressed by it, really impressed by it. I know in the Hunter Valley, they're, they're doing the same thing. I just see really as a no-brainer. And the interesting thing is, because I got to speak to a lot of the inmates in there in the time that I spent in there. They know that jail won't work for everyone. They, they're saying, look, some, some people take the piss if you put them in this, this jail. They'll, they'll play the system, get in here and it's not gonna change them at all. But a large percentage of them will buy into what they were trying to do there, making them. Have have the skills where they could walk out of prison and integrate back into society better.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  Um.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  We had a lot who wanted to be put there.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the preferred prison.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  For them to go to because apparently they, you know, from what watching your show that you did is that they are treated better than, well, that's coming from their mouths. Um, and also they, yeah, like, you know, and and you stuff up once and you're out.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  That that's right. And I I learnt so much doing that podcast series and and spending time in in the prison and.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was fascinating.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  I I I found it was fascinating too, and it really opened my eyes up up to things that. You put them in a, let's call it a traditional prison, and this is what the inmate is saying. You open that cell door, you walk out in the yard, you're gonna bridge up, you don't know if you're gonna be, you're you're gonna come back in alive or in one one piece. You don't know what was gonna happen. And speaking to some of the prisoners in Macquarie Correctional Centre, and there was some heavy people in there, like, it's not, yeah, it wasn't. They didn't cherry pick the all the easy prisoners that will just put them in this.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Well, it's maximum.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, we're not all sitting there singing Kumbaya, but they're in there and they said, look, we don't need to do that in this place, like if you stuff up. And the other thing I found really interesting, and this was the psychology of it, that was explained to me when I I came in there, that they give them rewards up front. So they got the rewards up front. And if they misbehave, they lose their.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Rewards. Now, normally you go into jail and you start with nothing, but if you behave yourself and you're a good boy for, yeah, um, six months, you'll get a TV or, yeah.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  They build up. Here, they come in. The opportunities are endless. They can study.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  So they've got stuff to lose rather than.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  They study, they work. They all live in a dorm, and the dorm had, I I think, thirty or so prisoners uh in the in the dorm. I went maximum security. I thought that's gonna be a bloodbath in there. Like, you know, you're not putting them in the cells. No, they're all within this dorm. And they had a yard out the back of the dorm where it had a cage over it, like the the security was all still very much intact. But they could sit outside to nine o'clock and they had some boxing equipment there, punching bag, barbecue. And they could actually, and some of the inmates said, this is the first time I've been able to see stars or night sky.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  And little things like that, they keep them in contact with their families. They get more access to that. Education, work, and it gives them a sense of purpose. And the other thing that came across was the respect that the the corrective services officers shows to the inmates and the inmates give that back in return. Yeah, in most prisons, that's frowned upon. You know, it's blue or green. You're one or the other and you don't don't do that. But.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Another Scandinavian model, wasn't it?

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it was based on things that they've tried over there. So it hadn't got to the point where we see what the recidivism results are. I don't think they've got all the research data available yet. I might be naive to this, but I don't think I'm that naive when I'm talking to people, people in prison. And there were so many people in there that I could see the benefits from that type of custodial sentence. And the benefits for them getting out, that wasn't funny. So hopefully they will buy into that.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Hopefully in time, we'll be able to see whether that model works.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Because you talked about the classification. Was that part of your on the board as well that you had to do?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if they behave themselves, just putting it for lack of better words. You know, there would be recommendations and there were certain periods of time where they were eligible.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  And so we would have a look at there and make recommendations to the commission, we'd meet with the commissioner and then we'd make recommendations to the minister and, you know, he might we would say yes or no, depending on the recommendation. But it was sometimes there is a time period where they, obviously, you know, if they aren't sentenced, then they go to sentenced and then, you know, and they, so it's all based on behaviour. Um. Whether there's been any incidences, um, their urines, you know, things like that. But yeah, there is a timeframe for them to to move down. Um. And then they can eventually, once they get to, like you said, oh, another thing too is, you know, if they hold down a job, how they're going with their job. Have they been fired from their job?

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Um. Uh. They don't earn very much, but it's, you know, have they, have they done that? And also, um, you know, have they done their courses? Because they really can't leave, um, they can't get out on parole unless they've done their, and their particular courses. And so the talk board is very much around recommending what courses that they need. And some of them get suspended from them and and, you know, one day they had a whole lot of them that had been suspended from from whatever.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Um. And weren't able to finish it, but they ha- they can't get out basically unless we don't rec-. They have to do these courses, so so there is education before.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Well, see, uh, and we say, and and people go, oh, yeah, but it fails. Yeah, it might fail and it might be fifty percent that doesn't fail, but it's worth improving that fifty percent.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  I I had, uh, have you heard of Rainbow Lodge?

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, had, uh, clawed on and, uh, talking about even working in prison, that if you pay the pay the basic wage, like for working in prison, that might inspire you. So when they do walk out the doors of prison, they've got some money to set up a home and, you know, to find, not a home, to uh, find accommodation, a roof over their head and give them enough time to uh, find uh, find employment, uh, all all those type of things. I I really, it's opened my eyes to different ways and, you know, you're a big part of it with the advocacy that you're you're doing, different ways of uh, of fighting crime. Have you heard of, um, it was down in Victoria, uh, Fruit to Work?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, what, how cool are they?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Awesome. I know. So there's so many entrepreneurs doing some really, really fantastic stuff.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  And and that was a simple, uh, and I I think it was, um, Fennec, Stephen Fennec, that, uh, was, uh, I had on the, uh, podcast.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  And he, um, it was a simple process of when someone's released from prison, he gives them a job and Fruit to Work, the name of the, the business was they were delivering fresh fruit to officers and, and different things like that. But just teaching people how to turn up on time, um, dress appropriate for work, get a sense of responsibility, develop a C V. And they, they would only work for six or 12 months with them and then they would leave.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  But by that time, they had a C V. They didn't have to say, well, what have you been doing for the past five years? Nothing. This is what I've been doing for the past 12 months. I've been working and all that. Little things like that, I think it's such a good idea.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And it just gives them this, um, look, it reintegrates them into, back into society.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Because that's half the problem with recidivism, right?

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Is that they find themselves out on their own and don't have much services. We've got, um, Joe Kwan, who has, who we know from Comfit, who's got an app now.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Um, for, for people getting out of jail so that they can, um, yeah, tap into a whole lot of resources, which is wonderful. He's doing amazing work.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I think it's important to, to help that transitional period, which, um, yeah, I mean, look at A J, he's got a second chance now, so he, yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  It's, yeah, and look, I, I was scared before I phoned you when I was, I.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Not scared of me, I hope.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  No, I, I was scared. I'm thinking, oh, no, I, okay, all right, okay, just be brave, dial, dial the number. And Joe, uh, uh, gave me your, your number, but, uh, there was something that, uh, that was quoted in, it might have been when he got parole or it might have been, uh, uh, something that.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Sentencing day.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Uh, sentencing, uh, you said two lives have been destroyed. And just on that one thing, I thought, and I looked at the work you've done, I thought, well, if anyone, I've, I've got a phone, you, you're probably a, a good person to start with, you'll at least understand where I'm coming from. But the fact that you said two lives have been destroyed, like, most people wouldn't have the generosity of spirit to even even consider that. But, uh, yeah, that that came from you guys and that's powerful.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's we did get swarmed by the media that day. And I I was like, go and ask dad.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Because mum and dad are like, no, no, we'll speak to the media, not you just. And then, but they just went, dad was, uh, I don't know, but we had a lot of friends there that day. So and so I I kind of on the spot had to come up with something. So I'm glad I'm glad I came up with that.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, it was true. Like, that's why I'm not saying it's two lives. Like, A J may as well, whilst he's hasn't been great for our lives, um, he, he's got a second chance and he, I know he says he doesn't deserve it, but I think everyone has deserves a second chance. Just, yeah, so long as he keeps on track.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that that's the the thing that you you've said in long conversations that we've had, that, uh, yeah, the worst thing could be that Eden's life was taken and the person responsible for it has learnt nothing and has come out and gonna do that type of thing again. So if if any, anything that can give some peace, that, yeah, A J is trying to turn his life around.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  And there's ones that do get out that show no remorse either.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  Do you, uh, when you you see that that type on the, when you're on the on the board, how how did you react to that? Or just sort of shake your head? Do you you get to speak to them and ask them questions like?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Uh, this particular one is very high profile, gets out, um, on Australian story. So, um, guy who tried to kill Lauren Huxley, like, he.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Oh, that was a horrible.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Reason I can talk about it is because it's out in the media.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, just no remorse.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  That that was a horrific crime. I remember the time.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So on Australian story, yeah, she's, yeah, but she's, she's doing okay. She's doing well.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, brave, brave girl.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Oh, and great, great family support.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, those those parents are amazing.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was, I I know the police involved in in that and the, well, through the whole, whole office, everyone felt touched by that. It was horrendous.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, she had five percents chance of living. So she she was a fighter.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And there's, there, there are horrific crimes, isn't it? And, uh, yeah, that's what we, uh. We can't, uh, can't forget, yeah, we can talk about ways of, you know, steering people in the right directions, preventing it, if we can, great, but there'll, there'll always be that evil out there. Given what you've seen in, in life and the good stuff, like the light in the darkness where you, you're turning people's lives around, but the darkness surrounding them, cause you would have heard a lot of reports about people being abused as, as kids and, and different things. How do you retain your faith in society and humanity?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Uh, I just think there's so ma- so many more good people in the world than there are evil.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's so many good people in this world. So, yeah, I think that's, it restores my faith.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  We're far, far outweigh the evil people. Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think you're a, a good person. I think there's been a few awards come your way too, just quietly.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I've had a few.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm gonna put you on the spot. You're, I boiled up, you told me that some of the awards that have, uh, come your way.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Uh, um, I was nominated for Australia, New South Wales Australian of the Year. That's, feels like forever ago.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Uh, New South Wales Woman of the Year. Um, yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Well, well.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Few more.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, no, there's, there's quite a few, but you, you're being humble here. But look, the, the work that you're doing, most people don't do that. I, I know the impact if you, if you get involved in traumatized people's worlds, which you are with some of the, the things you're doing. It can be, uh, it can be tough and you, you carry a lot of weight and you've been doing it for a very long time. So.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  I know, I feel really old now.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  Don't you hate that? We're only twenty one.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  I know.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, um, no, full, full credit to you. And, uh, yeah, I, I know we speak of Joe, how highly he, he speaks of you as, as well.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  And, uh, I think it's remarkable. And, uh, thanks for coming on, on today. I.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  I, I just, the moment we started talking, I thought, no, I, I wanna, uh, get, get you on the podcast. I couldn't believe some of the stuff you've done. But you've got a perspective of crime that most people don't have. You, you've seen it in so many diff- different ways. So I, I think it's been enlightening, the, the chat and. All the best for the future. And what can, who, can we give a shout out to, uh, your businesses or, or whatever?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do that.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Warriorwoman.org.au. Um, just get on the website. Um, if you know someone who needs, uh, help, a young woman, um, please nominate away. Um, now's a good time. But if you want to donate, please feel free to go on the website.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Sounds like-

• 52:53Speaker 01

  We need your money.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Sounds like a worthy cause to me. Thanks very much, all the best, keep up the good work.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks Gary.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  And say hello to your parents too, they seem like real characters.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Yes, they are, they are, they're beautiful people. But thank you for helping me spread the word too.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Cheers.