Pod Insights Human Capital Leadership The Unexpected Power of Boundaries, with with Sheri Jacobs About this episode In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Sheri Jacobs about her book, The Unexpected Power of Boundaries.
Sheri Jacobs is a keynote speaker, and innovation strategist who helps organizations unlock their creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks, and leadership. As the founder of Avenue M Group, she has partnered with over three hundred organizations and surveyed over half a million people to uncover what drives real transformation and growth.
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Transcript 0:03 Speaker 00 Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.
0:35 Speaker 00 Sherry Jacobs, welcome to the conversation today.
0:38 Speaker 01 Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here, John.
0:40 Speaker 00 It is a real pleasure to be sitting down with you. You're joining us from Denver. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. And today, we're going to be talking about your recent book, The Unexpected Power of Boundaries. It's just a thrill to be able to have a chance to sit down with you and talk about this. I am a big proponent of boundaries, boundaries in personal life, boundaries in the workplace. I think this is so, so important. Honestly, one of my favorite things to do, like everyone else, I probably spend too much time scrolling sometimes, but some of the content creators that I love scrolling are those that have content around workplace boundaries. And you may know some of the ones I'm thinking
1:19 Speaker 00 about, but they'll get screenshots or text messages from people talking about their workplace conditions, or toxic bosses, or different stuff like that. And then they'll just talk through it, and they'll talk about how ridiculous it is, or how toxic it is, or how it should be handled, or those sorts of things. And I love it. I love it because we just need to bring awareness to those sorts of things. And it's completely appropriate and completely healthy for somebody to stand up for themselves and to establish firm, appropriate boundaries to keep a healthy environment for themselves and for their work life, for their personal life. And yeah, this is what we're going to be exploring and discussing
2:04 Speaker 00 together today. As we get started, I wanted to share Sherry's bio with everybody. Sherry Jacobs is the author of The Unexpected Unexpected Power of Boundaries is a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and innovation strategist who helps organizations unlock their creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks, and leadership. As the founder of Avenue M Group, she has partnered with over 300 organizations and surveyed over half a million people to uncover what drives real transformation and growth. And there's a whole lot more I could say about your background, but I'm going to pause. Anything you would like to highlight about your own path, your own background, personal context before we dive on in?
2:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, thanks, John. Actually, I do. So there's a fun aspect of my past career that has taken an interesting turn and a different turn, but I still do, which is I started as a photojournalist, worked for newspapers across the country, including in near your hometown, so in Agden, Utah. And I even photographed Michael Jordan when he played for the Chicago Bulls. And I remember when I was out in Utah, I photographed mutton busting at the rodeos there. And today, I actually take my camera and I travel to all seven continents and photograph wildlife, which to me is very similar to sports, because you don't set it up and you try to capture this unique moment.
3:23 Speaker 01 But there's a lot of work around boundaries that enter into my creative life as a photographer, as well as my work life.
3:30 Speaker 00 I love that. I love that. And I love, I love that creative background that now, you know, comes into this more, you know, business corporate strategic work that you do. I love that. I love that. Well, one of the things I always like to talk about with authors when I'm sitting down is like, buy this book, why now? Books are a real labor of love. Oftentimes, I don't know your backstory with this book specifically, but a lot of times they're years in the making. They, you know, it just takes, it's a long slog, a long, hard process to really get your thoughts out and get it out there into the world. So what was it about this topic? And what was it about this book that, you know, you felt like you had to get it out there?
4:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, great question. So there are a couple of things that all converged at the same time. So first, For the last seventeen years, I've owned a research firm and we have surveyed, as you mentioned, half a million people. And what I kept finding again and again in my research across every profession, from architects to healthcare professionals to bankers and lawyers, really every industry you can imagine, was that people would get stuck, right? They would have a challenge solving a problem. So I was curious about, well, what was getting in their way so that they could come up with solutions? And we started hearing a lot about how we need to create cultures where people could experiment and there was psychological safety allowing people to fail.
4:58 Speaker 01 The problem wasn't that they didn't necessarily have that kind of culture. The problem was is that they didn't know how far they can go. They didn't have a boundary set in place. And so it wasn't enough that they had some people worked in great cultures. The problem was is that if they don't know, have clarity, if it was ambiguous, they stuck with what they knew, even though they knew there was a solution out there, they had never done it. And so I saw this in the research with thousands of people. And then I experienced it myself as a photographer that completely failed up in the Arctic when I was photographing polar bears. And even though I've been all over the world photographing wildlife, I did not have boundaries,
5:42 Speaker 01 I did not set them, and I didn't come back with one sharp photo. And then I had an experience where I did, and I set those boundaries. So it's the combination of the research that I've done over the last fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years, combined with my own artistic creative pursuits, that really brought me to putting together this book and seeing if it would resonate with people.
6:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's awesome. I love that why behind the book and your personal journey that, you know, finds its way into the book. I think it's so important. And I really do think that probably everyone can resonate with the importance of boundaries, whether or not we're good at it. Probably most people aren't particularly good at setting and maintaining boundaries. That's why therapists. are so good at like having and maintaining jobs. Why consultants also have jobs? It's it's a hard thing and and then human nature is such, you know, that uh you know, we we step, we tend to just step all over each other.
6:45 Speaker 00 Whether that's our intention or not, and we don't, we're not always good at kind of carving out, maintaining our own space, you know? Because we we want to be liked and we want to be accepted and we want to, you know, be part of the in-group and and all these things. And sometimes boundary maintenance can kind of other us or or make us at least we we can feel concerned that it might other us. I remember one example, you know, just my own personal life where, you know, I there there was a hard situation and I felt like I had to speak up. And I felt like I had to, you know, reassert some boundaries for the health of me and my family. And those are hard conversations, right, to have with people.
7:29 Speaker 00 I think I I did it barely well. I'm not, I'm sure I wasn't perfect, but I think I did it reasonably well. But the reaction, you know, from other people is often what you would expect is like, people don't always like that. Like people sometimes get defensive, they put up walls. You know, sometimes they feel like I'm I'm being like I'm judging them before they do something right. Rather than, you know, waiting until they do something to be upset at them or something. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm just clarifying, I'm establishing some boundaries, I'm making sure that we're on the same page. I just want to make sure that we're healthy, you know, those sorts of things.
8:07 Speaker 00 That's a hard thing. That's a hard thing to establish and it's a hard thing to maintain and to do it in a way that people feel seen and heard and comfortable with each other. Because we're human and and you know, that sometimes is a little bit contrary to how human nature works.
8:22 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Well, you know, there's a couple suggestions I have for people. And I I speak about knowing and sitting down and kind of thinking about what you'll say yes to and what you'll say no to. And a boundary is also what you'll say yes to. And so in those difficult. Conversations, you do want to say this is what I'm saying no to, but equally you want to spend time saying, but this is what I'm saying yes to. These are the things that I am going to do. And so when you're very clear with people around what you will and what you won't do, when you do that in work, when you do that in your personal life, when you have that clarity, people of course are going to push back at different times because they're going to have
9:05 Speaker 01 a reaction to it. But knowing where you stand, what you say yes and no to actually makes them more comfortable in the long run and creates a better opportunity for a better relationship overall.
9:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's about, you know, shared expectations and just clarity and open communication. You know, I think ultimately just allows people to function better, right? So clarity, you're in the light rather than moving through the darkness, right? I think ultimately, well, it can certainly lead to sometimes somewhat uncomfortable conversations. I'd rather have somewhat uncomfortable conversations proactively than having reactive, responsive, you know, types of negative conversations that have to happen after the fact because pain and hurt occur, right? And that's often what ends up happening when there aren't clearly established, understood boundaries that are in place.
9:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, you said a word that I love. It's my favorite, one of my favorite words, which is actually clarity. And I often say when I give a keynote that business moves at the pace of clarity and that growth happens at the pace of clarity and relationships develop at the pace of clarity. When you have clarity in place, that's really when everything in your life grows. And that clarity, which is simple, when you said it, that word is perfect, is the key behind boundaries because boundaries of being very clear about this is the areas we will work in. It's also about risk. So a lot of times people talk about their risk tolerance and risk tolerance,
10:38 Speaker 01 as you know, John, is about how comfortable you feel taking a risk, doing something new, you know? And that's when you see teams and workplaces go, I'm not sure about this, you know? Not sure if we can try that or not. I actually think you're having the wrong conversation. What we need to shift from is from our risk tolerance to our risk capacity. And what I mean by that is our capacity to try something different, our capacity to take on something new, our capacity to run an experiment in your personal or professional lives, take on a new hobby, move somewhere, whatever it might be, what is your capacity to do it? It doesn't work because we know there's a chance it may fail and you can recover.
11:20 Speaker 01 And if you are actually having a capacity conversation with people rather than your comfort level, then you can make decisions of, you know what, we don't have the capacity if this fails. So we need to continue along this path or, oh, we do actually have the capacity to try this out. And if it doesn't work, that's it's okay. We've learned something. And one of my favorite things to say is that failure is knowledge earned. Failure is knowledge earned because every time you do something and it doesn't work, you've now you've earned and you've gained some knowledge and that helps you grow as well.
11:52 Speaker 00 I really like that. And the clarity, so relationships move at the speed of clarity. Another way of of that, I've heard the same phrase, the same quote, relationships move at the speed of trust. Right. And I think clarity and trust go hand in hand, right? You can't have trust without clarity. You can't have trust without boundaries. That's that goes for any relationship that goes for relationships at home, you know, with a partner, with with children, that goes to relationships in the workplace with coworkers, with, you know, subordinates and with your boss and, you know, up the line, down the line horizontally. You know, it's all about trust. It's all about clarity. It's all about boundaries.
12:37 Speaker 00 And and when you don't have clear expectations, when you don't have all of that,
12:42 Speaker 00 things can devolve pretty quickly.
12:46 Speaker 00 And again, it's not necessarily because of bad intent. Like I don't think most people, you know, most micromanagey types of controlling bosses probably don't wake up in the morning thinking, I want to get up in everyone's business today and like be annoying. And like constantly hover over them and surveil them and like make them uncomfortable. And make them feel like nobody trusts them like I I very much doubt there's almost any boss who thinks that way, right? But they but there are still bosses who act that way. Why? Because there's not a clear alignment between expectations and boundaries and there's no trust. And and so things devolve to a point where they feel like that that's what they have to do.
13:27 Speaker 00 And on the flip side, you know, there's this reciprocal, you know, sometimes downward spiral of lack of trust. And and and then the employee, you know, simultaneously will will also sense that lack of trust. They'll feel like their boundaries are being impinged upon and and and things get out of hand. Uh, and so all of that can be, you know, derailed, all of all that can be, you know, stopped just by having some open conversations. Uh, and whether again, whether it's at home in a in a romantic relationship, whether it's at work in a professional relationship. Those conversations can be hard because they make you vulnerable and they make you open to, you know.
14:11 Speaker 00 Criticism and they make you open, you know, i- i- it can be hard to to to stop that behavior. Or to stop that kind of um momentum if there if there's a negative kind of pattern. Uh, this is why, you know, we have consultants and therapists and everything, but like it it's so, so important that you do. And and anyone can do it like i- i- you don't necessarily have to hire a consultant to come in to help you do it. You don't necessarily have to go to a a marriage therapist to help you do it like. You can also just recognize what's happening and also like proactively do it yourself. Or get a great book and and you know, that helps you to kind of walk through the steps to do it yourself as well like the, you know, the.
14:50 Speaker 00 Like it's like I often tell people, whether it's clients or students that I teach, like it's not rocket science. Uh, it, you know, the these concepts, these principles aren't rocket science, but it's really hard to do. And it's really hard because it takes consistency, commitment, and because we're human, right?
15:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you sometimes have to sit in the discomfort of the decision that you made. But as I have realized, when I've interviewed people, I've surveyed people, I myself have experienced it personally, when I'm out photographing whales or penguins out in Antarctica, or the leopards in the trees in Botswana. Every single time that I have set a boundary personally, professionally, or even in my own hobbies, and taking the time to pursue those hobbies, which, you know, now, right now, photography is a hobby, it's not what I do for a living. But in order to make space for that, when you set a boundary,
15:52 Speaker 01 it's very different from sitting there going, you know, I wish I could do this. But when you say, this is my boundary, I need to spend a certain amount of time doing this. And when I'm doing this, I need to be focused 100% on this. And I'm going to be off my phone, or I'm going to be focused on this task at work, whatever it's going to be, there's going to be some discomfort they have to sit with, but there's also going to be an enormous amount of freedom and joy that you gain out of it. And once you've set that first boundary, people will respect them. People will step back and they will say, okay, this is when Sheri is available, when she's not available. This is when, this is what we can expect from her. And you know what? We enjoy, we know, we like knowing
16:34 Speaker 01 when she's available, when, you know, what she can and cannot do. And so, yes, there's discomfort with it, but I find that there's so much more joy, so much more success and growth when you do set them.
16:46 Speaker 00 And maybe walk us through, like, some of the most common problem areas, like, that people probably should consider, you know, maybe setting, establishing, and like, trying to maintain better boundaries.
16:57 Speaker 01 Sure. So, you know, I, my book mostly focuses on the workplace. And really thinking about, one of the phrases that I hear all the time, and I even hear it when somebody introduces me before, if they haven't read the book, or if they, they don't know that the idea is the opposite of this, people will say, I'll walk in, they'll say, Sheri- Here to speak to us about how we can think outside the box. And I'm like, that's actually the opposite of what I'm going to talk about. Because that phrase is always thrown out there. And what it does to people is they go out of the box. Well, how far can I go? What can I do with this? I don't know. So the examples that I give mostly in the book really do focus on where, what is the shot that only you can take?
17:42 Speaker 01 What is the thing that you, where you bring value? What boundaries need to be in place for you to be able to take that shot to provide that value? And if there's a lack of clarity or if it's ambiguous, that's when you need to have the conversation and say, great, I love this problem that we're trying to solve, or I hate this problem we're trying to solve, but I'm all in and I'm going to work on it. Give me three things, right? It's just like the blank piece of paper. John, if I were to give you a blank piece of paper and say, okay, in the next 20 minutes, write a great story, like amazing story, you'd be like, I don't even know where to start and you would stare at it, right? But if I gave you that blank piece of paper and I said, here are three guidelines, right? Here are three constraints.
18:22 Speaker 01 Write something that takes place at this time, in this setting and with these characters. You're like, all right, I could start. It may not be great at first, but I could start, right? That's the big difference. And so wherever you are, if you're at work or if you're leading a team or if you're at home, you know, it's, it's starting with the small experiments. It's saying, here are three things we will do and here are the things we won't do. And so now that there's agreement on it, then it's so much easier to dive in and to say that. And if you are not leading a team and you're managing up or you are working for somebody, that, that helps as well as to ask for that clarity. My other suggestion, if you are leading a team, and this is so important,
19:06 Speaker 01 be the last one to speak in the room. Be the last one on the agenda. Make sure the more junior person is the first one to speak. Because they're often closest to the problem. They often have ideas that never get shared. But when the person who comes in, who is the leader of the team, the CEO, the department director, or even in the personal, you know, the captain of your, your team and they speak. First, everybody else just falls in line. So be the last one to speak if you're the leader. And if you're the first one, ask for guidelines.
19:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, and that's whether that's your intention or not, right? That's again, it just comes back to to human nature and it it comes back to that psychological safety piece that you're talking about. You you may have every intention of wanting people to share their ideas openly and freely and all of that, right? But but as soon as you was the person in authority, like as soon as you in that position, power, like open your mouth and you start to speak, there there will always be some, there will always be, you know, that that one or two people, you know, that just are always willing to share, right? It seems like there's always those people in the group, but like most people, a lot of people, you know, they're just going to go quiet at that point.
20:18 Speaker 00 Because they don't feel comfortable challenging, they feel unsafe, or or they just, you know, they just at that point, want to please the boss, right? And and so they're not going to to speak up. And so I I think that is is fantastic advice. Sheri, I I know there's so much more we could get into with the book. We've really only scratched the surface here, but I guess that's why it's wonderful that you have a book that people can can get and and to dive into. I know at the time, I'm going to have to let you go here in a minute, but before we wrap things up, I wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, your team, where they can find your book, and then give us the final word for today.
20:57 Speaker 01 Okay, great. Well, you could find me at sherijacobs.com. It's S H E R I, sherijacobs.com. And on there, you can find the book, you can find the book on Amazon, you can find them Barnes and Noble and other leading bookstores. So you could purchase a book, Audible, the Kindle version, or the hardcover, depending on how you like to read. And and you could find me as well, if you're if you're interested in connecting with me or on LinkedIn as well. And so one one final thought, and I mentioned it just a little minute ago, but I'll say it again, which is that the greatest thing about boundaries, because that is the process, it's what's the outcome? The outcome is when they're in place, then you're Able to take the shot that only you can do.
21:41 Speaker 01 And whether it is you running a company and you're looking for what is our value? How do we stand out? If you're applying for a job, if you're just a college grad and you're looking, you know, at jobs and you're trying to stand out, whatever it is that you are trying to do, there's a shot that only you can take there. You have something special. But in, in order for you to show that, you need to define this is where I do, where I excel. And this is where I don't. And this is where, right now, I am looking to put my focus, because that will help you grow in, in whatever it is that you're pursuing.
22:12 Speaker 00 I love it. I love it. Sherry, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, to get connected, find out more about what Sherry can do for you. Check out the book. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. They can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great week.
22:33 Speaker 00 Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.
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