Temporary Leave without Permanent Setbacks, with Beth Wanner

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Beth Wanner about providing temporary leave options within your organization. Beth Wanner is the founder and CEO of Mother Cover, an agency providing interim and fractional coverage that helps companies across the U. S. and Canada maintain momentum while supporting employees through parental and caregiver leave. A former tech executive, she launched Mother Cover after her own experience of being terminated at 8-months pregnant exposed critical gaps in how workplaces support parents. She has become a vocal advocate for women and parents in the workplace, focused on changing how leave is handled operationally—not just in policy. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Beth Warner, welcome to the conversation today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  It is a pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Saskatchewan. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today, we're going to be talking about temporary leave. The kind of the catch line to Mother Cover is temporary leave without permanent setbacks. I love that. You're going to tell us all about Mother Cover and what you do. But generally speaking, we're going to talk about temporary leave and why that's so important and how organizations can go about doing that and doing that more effectively. As we get started, I wanted to share Beth Warner's bio with everybody. Beth is the founder and CEO of Mother Cover, an agency providing interim and fractional coverage that helps companies across the US and Canada maintain momentum while supporting employees through parental

• 1:22Speaker 00

  and caregiver leave. A former tech executive, she launched Mother Cover after her own experience of being terminated at eight months pregnant exposed critical gaps in how workplaces support parents. She has become a vocal advocate for women and parents in the workplace focused on changing how leave is handled operationally, not just in policy. And I love that. And I love the focus at the end there, not just operationally, but in policy, or not just in policy, but operationally. Obviously, very, very important that it's both policy and operational, right?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  You need both.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  That both are supportive of each other. Like, it's great to have the operational piece, but it has to be supported in policy. And obviously, it's great to have the policy piece that has to be backed up. Operationally, the two have to be supportive of each other. And I I will say on the outset, I I'm very pleased to see how far things have come in terms of parental leave. Um, over the last decade, like I think we're light years ahead of where it was. For example, in the U S, you're in Canada, uh, you know, and things are different in Canada, but like in the U S, for example. I mean, the idea of parental leave more broadly beyond um, beyond paternity leave or beyond maternity leave was not even part of the conversation, um, you know, a decade ago.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  And now paternity leave is is much, much more common. I have six children and uh, my my youngest is now twelve, my oldest is twenty two. And so like all of that, all of my children happened before there was ever a whiff of having the option of paternity leave. Now, I'm a professor and so luckily I am in a profession that has a lot of autonomy and flexibility. And so essentially I was able to craft my own paternity leave. Just by nature of my occupation and and and my uh, in my job. And and I was able to kind of arrange it myself. Um, but it was certainly not something provided uh, by by um, even my university and universities tend to be a little bit more

• 3:26Speaker 00

  um, you know, progressive and a little bit more uh, benefits uh, generous, you know, than a lot of organizations and we saw it, nothing, we had nothing um, at the time. And and I will say now we do, now we do, and I'm glad that that it's there, but it certainly wasn't there before. And I will say, even though, even though my university has paternity leave now, and I'm sure this resonates with you, um, I hear stories all the time about how even though it's in policy, operationally, it's not supportive. Uh, you know, people still get punished, men get punished, of course, women get punished, of course. Um, and i- i- it's a problem, like it's a huge problem, right?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  That's that's why you exist, that's why your organization exists.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and that was a- as you you talked about in the intro, my my own personal lived experience. But I'll even say right at the front too, despite our name being Mother Cover, we feel In for all types of parental leave. So the more that we have dads taking paternity leave and taking longer paternity leave, the more opportunities that actually provides more choices for women as well too. So we want to support everyone taking the leave that they are entitled to. But as you said, just because it's there on on policy doesn't mean people feel actually safe to to take it. And what does it actually mean then to meet that policy with practice and having an actual playbook for how do we then

• 4:53Speaker 01

  operationalize that? Because that person's work doesn't go away just because they stepped out and we need to equip people managers with how to actually support that in like in a way like I said, that feels safe and not almost just a test of loyalty of yes, you can take this time. And that's why being Canadian is kind of a good lens for that, even though we work mostly with with US companies. But to say in Canada, for those who don't know, we have 12 to 18 months of federally protected leave. But that doesn't actually change corporate culture. And I'm I'm a walking example of that as somebody who got fired at eight months. Pregnant is companies still feel very nervous about somebody taking any length of time away, especially if you're in a key role.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I and I hear that all the time, like that little caveat. But but given your key role, given your senior executive, you know, position, we, you know, we have heightened scrutiny and expectation, you know, around, you know, like they'll use that kind of language or jargon or or whatever to, you know, essentially try to skirt around the policy or like, you know, whatever, right? And yeah, and that's and that's that's concerning. It's it's problematic. And and I, yeah, I appreciate you you extending it, you know, it's it's not just maternity leave, it is paternity leave. And it's not just for for having a baby, like it's for caregiving.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  And I was having a conversation about this just a couple of days ago, you know, around just the the need, much more broadly speaking, around caregiving. So many people care.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  That was generation is huge right now.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  They care for an elderly parent, or maybe they have a special needs child who is not a baby, you know, who is just a special needs child that that is, you know, older, who's who's at home, or who there's a there's an illness, like there's a special medical need, right? There there's all sorts.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Or others, mental health is another big one that that's coming out as as burnout is is prevalent in in corporate America. So we all have things that matter outside of of our career, and we'll all need time at at one point or another to care for ourselves or or others, and it shouldn't come at the cost of deciding, will I take that time to to care for myself or somebody I love, or pursue my my career? So trying to to help companies come up with a different way of workforce planning, that makes that just a natural part of any employee's life cycle. So even though we're really focused and I'm passionate about seeing more women reach leadership and stay in in leadership positions,

• 7:34Speaker 01

  it really does affect all of us as as human beings pursuing our careers and our lives.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I and I I like that framing too about, you know, the the rising tide lifts all ships approach. So, you know, sometimes, you know, maybe maybe a man will say, well, what, you know, why do we need to worry about this? You know, or like, no, you know, other men in our organization don't take paternity leave. So why why do you need to?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  What are you doing at home anyway?

• 8:05Speaker 00

  What are you doing at home anyway? No, don't make those kind of flippant sexist comments or whatever. And and maybe maybe you don't choose to take it. Okay, whatever, right? That's your choice. But regardless, regardless of your own particular decisions, your own life choices, whatever, the fact that you in this moment, you know, feel like it's necessary for you or not, the reality is you may very well need it in the future. Maybe you're going to care for an elderly parent in the future, and you don't see that at the moment. But the the reality is, when you extend the protections and you extend the The the options and the benefits for one class of people that will then enhance and

• 8:46Speaker 00

  extend to and and raise it for everybody like and and that's that's that's sometimes hard for for certain folks to see if they're not in that particular protect, you know, that group that is is needing that protection. Um, you know, sometimes they they they see they it's hard for them to grapple with that, right? But it it really is a broader kind of right. It it does help everyone. It it truly does. And the rising tide lifts all ships. Um, you know, approach, I think sometimes, I don't know, maybe it'll help them to to see it a little bit. Um, but but yeah, if nothing else, certainly there's a the compliance piece. But I I hope we can get past compliance to a point where we can just we could see

• 9:29Speaker 00

  the business case of it, of course, it it's good for business. But it's also like, I think it's a moral imperative, like it's it's it's it's it's it's an ethical um decision that we need to make as organizations to look out for our people, right?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, we we talk a lot about the values of we want more growing families in in in North America, and it's not going to be solved by baby bonuses. It's it's how we are actually supporting the infrastructure that makes it possible for for parents to to grow their families, but also pursue careers because it's what they want to do. But also, we just live in an economic climate that makes it a necessity for a lot of families to be dual income earners. So we we've kind of built that that and we now need to support it.

• 10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And you've talked a little bit about kind of what led you to build Mother Cover, your own personal experience. Unfortunately, that's terrible that you had to experience that. Uh, and unfortunately, that's not a unique experience, like so many women have had that experience. It's terrible. Um, it it kind of is mind blowing to me how someone could sit across the table from someone who's eight months pregnant and have the gall to do that. Um, like, like, honestly.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  That was my feeling for sure.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Like, oh, my gosh, I just can't even. Imagine that, but it happens and it happens every day. And it's not just something that happened thirty, forty years ago, or even twenty years ago, or even a decade ago. It still happens every day today. And and so, you know, on the on the on the one hand, I can kind of empathize with organizations. Like, I get it, it's hard. Like, when someone goes on leave, you still gotta get the work done. You still gotta cover their position. I get it, that's hard. But it's not like they're caught completely blindly, like they knew for a long time. You know, that like there's gonna need to be some coverage for you, right?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Even if it was surprising for that person or and that that person's going on leave. People are having babies all the time. This is going to happen if it hasn't happened in your organization already, it will and it will again. So having a proactive plan for it just is. It's good business sense. It's the more, yes, we want your lead morally, but it's the right thing to do. But for for operating a good business, you need to think about these things.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  It's the reality, like you, you always need coverage for a variety of reasons, whether it's, you know, maternity leave or someone just gets hit by a bus on the way to work, right? Like, if if you're one deep on any role, you're in trouble. You have to, you know, you have to be cross trained. You have to have like, yeah, bench strength and you just, you just have to, you have to have a plan. You just do. And and anyways, but I.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It matters more than ever. Companies are leaner now than they they've ever been, where companies previously maybe had a little bit of redundancy or cushion. That's going away every day, it seems for a lot of of companies. But as you were saying about having empathy for the business, that is for, from my experience, kind of the weird way where my brain went as as well. So as much as I was upset about what happened to me on a personal side of it, what led to the idea of Mother Cover was when I was up at night now rocking a newborn, my wheels were spinning about why this is still seen as such a disruption to companies. Because I had shared my my story publicly and heard.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  From hundreds of other women and men of what they had experienced when they entered a parenthood. And I put back on my hat as a former executive and even on my own teams when somebody would come and share that they're pregnant. Hopefully you're saying congratulations, but in the back of your mind, you're immediately going, oh no. What does this mean for who's going to cover or this is extra work on my plate because now I've got to figure out what's happening or maybe you're just finally in a good spot with your team and you've got it humming the way that you want it. And now this is a, as a, as a disruption. And the thought is I'm not going to be able to solve for the extreme cases of discrimination, but for those, because I don't believe most companies

• 13:42Speaker 01

  have ill intent. They don't wake up thinking, I don't want any parents or women or anything in my, in my company. And I don't believe that anything should interrupt uh work. But that those natural logistical wheels start, start, start spinning. And if we could sell for some of those, help that feel like a natural process and that they've got a plan in place for how they handle that. We'll chip away at some of those things that lead to unconscious bias and then eventually fester into actual discrimination. So the idea for Mother Cover was there's been this rise in folks pursuing contracted and fractional work. How do we marry those individuals with companies that have upcoming leaves?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Make it all that we do. So we think about every kind of pinch point or every point that would cause some of that stress. Uh, how to document the work, how to have somebody step into it, how to cover the work itself. And then how to think about re onboarding, which is a part that a lot of companies haven't spent as much time about.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  And everybody that we have as part of our, our bench of what we call lead partners has to have at least 10 plus years of experience. Even if the role that they're stepping in for doesn't require that much seniority because often the, the challenge of bringing somebody in externally of a lot of companies will say, well, if it's a 12 week leave, I don't have time to spend ramping somebody up. That's where we say we, you want to almost over hire for, for a leave. Can't afford that full time. That's where fractional really helps and it's really creating this customized but templated approach at the same time so that you've got this plan that matches your your policy and you're not scrambling every time.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and I think that's great and it's genius. I mean, because it's something that every organization deals with. And I I agree with you. I think most people, most organizations have no nefarious intent here. Um, I don't think, I mean, there are sexist people. You know, there are kind of backwards, binded, backwards thinking people who like wishes the fifties. And they're like, women shouldn't even be working anyways, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, most people, I I don't think they think that way and they they have no nefarious intent. Um, but there's just the reality of like it, yeah, man, how are we, how are we gonna cover this? And and it's hard and oh my gosh. Um, and I, and anyone who's like scrambling day in and day out just to put out fires and

• 16:10Speaker 00

  you know, get work done and make payroll and like do all the things, right? Like all of a sudden, this is one more thing. And then all of a sudden, little things like little biases and like little, little things creep in and all of a sudden, you know, little excuses are made and like, and then all of a sudden, you're sitting across the table from someone and you get fired when you're pregnant, you know?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, or how many are caught up in the in layoffs or that uh it's almost that self fulfilling prophecy that we have still uh prevalent assumptions that when somebody goes on leave, they're not going to return. So we're almost planning for the worst case scenario. And then making that true because they, we didn't have a plan for their coverage. They didn't feel supported and then they do leave. And then we're saying, see, we were right, but actually.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  But how how were they treated? Like?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  And and and does it happen? Of course it happens. Um, but does it happen the majority of the time? No way, you know? And and uh, you know, for for every one story I hear from someone and then they try to act like that's how it always happens. I'm just like, okay, but like, how do you actually treat people? Um, and and that demonstrates to them whether or not you're an organization they want to be a part of, you know, like, like that ma- that matters. Um, anyways. So all of this, you know, I think everyone listening can probably relate to a lot of what we're talking about, probably on both sides.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Of like the challenges, but also perhaps they've experienced some of what you've talked about.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  If you haven't been on leave, you've probably covered for one or you've had one on your team.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Right. So like, what do you do? Like, how do you help with this? Like, how do you, how do you, um, you know, put the, the structure in place? You, you have the fractional people that can come in. You have people who are overqualified to help come in. Um, you know, when, when there's a lack of structured coverage, um, you know, talk, talk through that with us when you go in to help an organization. Think through that, um, to put a plan in place.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we cover for basically any type of kind of knowledge worker role. So marketing, HR, finance, operations, everything from a senior individual contributor up to, to the C-suite. So when we are approached by a, a company, we meet with them to understand kind of the specifics, uh, of the role that they need covered. Cause not every role needs a backhoe. Not every role needs a full-time replacement. And that's where fractional, uh, is helpful too. But we help them think through that. So again, it doesn't feel like this has to be a blanket approach to this is how we handle every single lead. But it can be this customized, here's what we actually need. So we talk through the specifics of the role, what they need as a must-have in somebody that would step into that role.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  We talk about the onboarding period, which we typically require at least two weeks of overlap with the person going on leave. But the longer, the better. We have templates and structure of how we document that work for somebody to be able to confidently step into it. And then the leave coverage itself, as we talked about, can, can be full-time, uh, but it can be fractional and more often than not, it is fractional. We talk about what are the key projects or things that are on that person's plate that you need somebody to step in and take? What could be dispersed amongst the team i- if that's an opportunity? Cause sometimes i- i- it can create, um, good stretch opportunities for members of the team. It has to be in a way that's thoughtful for them and not just piled on top of their existing work.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And then you're gonna burn them out and stress them out. And maybe that's an up-and-comer in your team that now won't be because they, they floundered under, under those circumstances. So how do we create the right structure that way? And then are there things that could get paused during that, that leave? So we think through all of, all the different ways that we could. Resource and structure and sometimes that comes down to budget as well, too. So if companies haven't proactively thought about what does leave coverage look like? That's where that could be a play a factor in it as well, too. And then we help them think about the re onboarding. So similar to the transition out, we want to think about how do we successfully bring that person back? So best practice is your person returning can slowly ramp up while our lead partner is slowly ramping down.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  And there's crossover and handover there. But even if it's cut and dry of they're they're done and or we're done and they're coming back. Our lead partners are documenting the work that they're doing, which is a monthly update that can either go to the parent while they're on leave. If everybody's different, that's what I would have wanted. My way, maybe the way that my anxiety would have manifested on leave is I I want to know what's going on without being pulled into to the work. But everybody's different. If you want to completely unplug, that's great. Two, we still write those updates. We just hold on to them and that becomes what forms your welcome back brief when you return. So you're getting breadcrumbs of context rather than having to read through a thousand different emails.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Or really just see where a project or or goals landed. You're getting to see the kind of the decisions that that went into those. So those are all the things that we hear from parents feel really overwhelming when they're returning is that they're expected to just pick up exactly where they left off. And sometimes if if work was just dispersed amongst the team, even if the most supportive team members are feeling some resentment. Things might be messy and now they're having to kind of clean up from their leave. And that's where you see the turnover happen is is either then they're almost docked for performance in in that way. Or they're just like, it's easier to start somewhere fresh than to dig myself out from the experience that my leave created. And and that's where we get that self fulfilling prophecy.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  And and most people just assume they've decided to become stay at home parents, which is only about. There's about a third of parents who leave their roles within eighteen months of of leaving of of taking leave. But only about four percent of those become stay at home parents. Most of them are are going. Your competitors or another company where they feel like, like I said, better to start fresh. So we want to help companies avoid that by thinking through all these things. So we've, we've now seen the opposite where we've had parents return back to work and say that not only did they feel valued, but they're, they felt like the work that they did is valued and that they'll move mountains for their company because they recognize how

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  fair it is to feel that level of support. And I think that's just really underestimated of gratefulness almost seems like a weird way to say, but they are just so grateful that they were supported at a critical moment in, in their life and they want to pay that forward.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I, I, I love that. And I love the return piece, the reorientation piece. And, and, and the statistic you shared about like people who leave within the first 18 months. Like, let's put that into perspective. Let's remember 18 months is a long time. And let's think about what your turnover rate is within your organization anyways, within an 18 month time period, regardless of where someone goes on leave or not, like it's not that different probably for most organizations. Like organizations have a lot of turnover anyways. And, and so, I mean, let's, let's be honest, like how you're treating people during one of the most important periods of their life is going to speak volumes to them as to whether or not they think you are worth their time and energy.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  You know, like, have you invested in them at all? Do you care about them as a person? And if, if you have not made this part, an important part of them and like made the transition like a reasonable experience, like, why would they want to like dedicate an important part of their life and their career to you and your organization? Like, why would they? I wouldn't. Like, why would anyone? Why would anyone? Like, why would you?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I've talked to uh parents who whose kids are twenty years old already and they can recall how they felt like it was yesterday when they weren't supported. So if I could get across anything of just it is not just a small blip in in time. It's not just about that job that they may have had at that time. It really imprints on them how they were supported, like I said, in a critical moment in in their their life and they carry that forward. So you can either be a part of that negative imprint or this positive imprint and they're going to be talking about that in twenty years from now in in a positive way.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Uh and yeah, it's just it's little things too. It it's not it's it's not rocket science. It's opening up channels of communication. It's thinking thoughtfully about what they are are going through and how best to support the work that they're going to be doing when they return because you do come back a a different person. But as you talked about that um it it really is more about like your your ambitions have have shifted, not in the way again that we think negatively of of they're not committed and they're not as ambitious as they are, but their tolerance for BS has gone down low.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  And and what they any time away that they're spending from their family has to be worth it. So when they don't feel supported with that, it automatically has this lens of like why am I spending time away from my family for this when I wasn't supported when I needed it? Uh so really having the flip side of that again is where those families just feel so much loyalty and dedication to those those companies and we need more of that.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  So yeah, exactly. And the flip side, the positive experience, oh my gosh, those people are going to run through walls and take bullets for you, like they're gonna be committed and loyal. They will remember. Like that's more than any bonus or pay raise will ever like impact them. They because that's where it matters, like their family experience and like your I mean, like you said, small things go a really long way, but on the flip, like on the other side, small negative things. They will remember. And like I told you, I I had no, I had no expectation of parental leave. Um, when I was having children, um, cause it didn't exist.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Um, and I was fortunate, I had, you know, the opportunity, the autonomy, the flexibility to kind of craft my own kind of ability to to, you know, you know, co-parent and be there and and, you know, and to have kids over the summer when I wasn't teaching and, you know, stuff like that, right? Cause I'm a professor. And that's, but that's a, that's a, a, a privilege that I had that like ninety nine percent of professionals don't have, right? Who aren't professors. And, um, but even then, you know, like I, I definitely, I remember it's, it's like emblazoned in my brain, how like the little snide comments that people would make. Um, when I, when I would come back in the fall and like, I would need to like leave campus to like, go like, take my kid

• 26:54Speaker 00

  or pick them up or like just the dumb little things that people would do or say that where I didn't feel supported. Um, like I will probably never forget those things, you know? Or like later on, like now I have kids that are twelve to twenty two, like now, like now I'm dealing with like kids who might have health issues. Like, and if, if I, I, I, I remember distinctly if, if I have an employer who, you know, who will not be flexible and supportive of me having to like help my teenage kid who has like a serious health issue, like forget about it. Like if you're not with, like, I don't care if you talk about how we're family and you're like support, you're supportive of like.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Bring your whole self to work, but not that part.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And like you, like we, we support our employees and we're family and blah, blah, blah. I don't care about the platitudes. I don't care about any of that garbage that you might say, like when, when the, where the rubber meets the road and I have to actually like put some time in to help my kid who's sick. That speaks volumes, right? That's where it actually matters. And, and people don't forget that stuff, right? And, and that's, that's where it actually matters. So is, is it, can it be hard? Absolutely, it can be hard. That's why. Like an organization like yours exists because you can actually help them think through it strategically. You can actually help provide the structure, the logistics. You can actually help them, you know, provide the talent so that they can actually have what they need to actually be productive moving forward.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  So for anyone listening, I'm sure you've experienced this from one side or the other, maybe all sides. Please like pay attention to this, understand how hard it can be for your people. Reach out, you know, hopefully we're all preaching to the choir here, but like, like absolutely this is a really hard thing. Well, Beth, I know at the time I probably need to let you go and get on with your busy day. But before we wrap things up, I wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, your team, and then give us the final word for today.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So you can find us at mothercoveragency.com. Find us on LinkedIn and Instagram. We're always sharing best practices and tips. The more that folks can can learn about this from both the HR level to people managers who are on the front lines of this. And then of course, the individuals taking leaves, you can find me on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, I just wanted to leave it with folks of you don't have to be experts in this area. We know HR leaders, people leaders are pulled in multiple different directions every single day. It's just having the right tools in your toolbox and which levers to pull when things do come up. And we want to be part of that so we can have more of those success stories and more of those stories of individuals saying that

• 29:36Speaker 01

  20 years from now, man, I felt supported and here's the company and individuals that did that for me.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, awesome. Beth, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, get connected, find out more about what Beth and her team can do for you. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. That you can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day, and I hope you all have a great week.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.