Why We Need More Learners Instead of Knowers in the Workplace, with Aiko Bethea

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Aiko Bethea about why we need more learners instead of knowers in the workplace. Aiko Bethea is a leader, builder and connector who has successfully navigated leadership roles in government, philanthropic, nonprofit and private sectors. The founder of RARE Coaching & Consulting, Aiko guides leaders and organizations, including Fortune 100 companies and global nonprofit organizations, to remove barriers to inclusion. She has been recognized by Forbes as one of the top seven anti-racism educators for companies and is a senior equity consultant for the Brené Brown Education and Research Group. Find her new book here. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Iko Bateo, welcome to the conversation today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, John.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  It is just a real pleasure to be with you. Where are you joining us from?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Atlanta, Georgia.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Oh, I love Atlanta. I had an opportunity to be there right for the Olympics in 96, which was super fun. I've been there, I've been back since, but there's certainly a fun energy just in preparation for the Olympics. And then I'm in the Salt Lake City area, and I was here during the 2002 Olympics. So there's lots of fun, you know, around that time. And we're going to be welcoming back the Olympics here again in about 10 years. So that'll be fun again. Anyways, Atlanta, beautiful place. Great to be with you. As we get started, I wanted to share Iko's bio with everybody. Iko Bateo is a leader builder and connector who has successfully navigated leadership roles in government,

• 1:23Speaker 00

  philanthropic, nonprofit, and private sectors. The founder of Rare Coaching and Consulting, Aiko guides leaders and organizations, including Fortune 100 companies and global nonprofit organizations, to remove barriers to inclusion. She has been recognized by Forbes as one of the top seven anti-racism educators for companies, and is a senior equity consultant for Brene Brown Education and Research Group. And that's just scratching the surface. There's so much more I could share about your background, your accolades and accomplishments. But I'm going to pause there. Anything you would like to highlight before we dive on into the conversation?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Sure. So I'm also a Falco team member at Hudson Institute of Coaching, where I train people to be coaches. So that's in Santa Barbara. And also, a large part of our practice includes athletes and celebrities, and CHROs, and other top leaders across their organization.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Awesome. Yeah, thank you for adding that. Great addition and so many really cool things that you're a part of. Today, we're going to be talking about why we need more learners instead of knowers in the workplace. In the pre-interview, we were exploring and just really chatting about all of the various different types of topics. And this is one that just resonated with me. It's one, you know, you chuckled and said, hey, we could talk about this one all day. I agree. I think I could talk about this one all day, too. And it boils down for me to we need more intellectual humility across leadership, across

• 2:58Speaker 00

  teams, you know, individuals, of course. We, in society, in organizations, in our archetypes and stereotypes of leaders, we just have put forward consistently this image of like this stoic person who has all the answers and is confident all the time and just can boldly move forward in any situation. And while there's nothing wrong with, you know, having confidence and being bold and decisive and whatnot, you know, that is perfect for certain situations, but there's lots of other situations where that would even be inappropriate,

• 3:39Speaker 00

  right? And so I just love this idea of we just need learners that implies intellectual humility, that implies, you know, keeping our ego and, you know, potential arrogance in check and just relying on those around us and listening and observing. What does it mean to you?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I love the fact that just intuitively, you saw the humble or humility in saying, hey, that you're a learner. Because when you say that you're a learner, there are already all these implications. The fact that you already know and you embrace that you don't know everything. So right there, when you're coming into the fold, there's a degree of humility there, right? And if you are a learner, it also means not only do you not know everything, but you know that the learning process means that you will fail and that you will get things wrong. But to learn, that means that you keep pursuing with the expectation that you're going to get things wrong. So there's this vulnerability to it.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Um, there's also this idea that you can learn from a variety of spaces and people. Cause at every moment, every one of us, each of us is a teacher and a learner. Um, I know that when I'm facilitating or when I'm coaching, my greatest learning comes from uh, when I'm in the room and I'm expected to be the expert, but I'm harvesting so much from the room. Um, there are different vantage points and perspectives. So I love that you tapped right into the humility aspect of it. I know I don't know everything. I know I'll get things wrong, but I have this pursuit of being better. And I think that there's just so much on that and, and that what you also have to have is a degree of curiosity.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Right. To keep pursuing, knowing and learning. So if you have, I just wanna invite you in in terms of a moment when you pursued um, teaching something and you realize, oh whoa, I don't know this. Or what they think I know, or as well as I feel like I did know. Do you have a moment like that?

• 5:42Speaker 00

  I mean, all the time. Um, but, but, but, but I'll, if I can share, so, so I'm a professor. Uh, and I do consulting work and I do things like this podcast and, um, but you know, I've, I've been in academia and, and been teaching university courses for 20 plus years. And, uh, you know, I remember early on, um, you know, just completely over preparing, you know, so before a class, you know, I'd, I'd have all these lecture notes and I have a gazillion slides and I, you know, cause I just felt like I, it's my job to know everything, right? And I have to be able to go and I have to be ready for every question that could possibly be asked. And, and then I was, you know, in grad school, I, I decided I need to be a better teacher. And so I'm gonna start going through this like teaching program where I take classes on how to be a better teacher

• 6:27Speaker 00

  and how to design better courses and whatnot. And I still remember to this day, like, sitting in this particular class where the, the instructor like gives me permission to not be the expert on everything when I'm teaching a class. And just like, I just remember the enormous weight that was lifted off my shoulders when I had that aha moment that like, oh, actually I can be a better teacher. When I don't take on that weight, when, yes, do I need to have expertise? Yes. Do I need to know my stuff? Yes. Do I need to be prepared? Of course I do. But when I'm overly structured, when I, you know, am just plowing through my slides and plowing through my notes and everything, that actually makes it less engaging, less interesting to students.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  And there, when I have a certain level of vulnerability and I can demonstrate that to my students, all it does is it demonstrates that, yeah, I don't know everything. Yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm continually learning. And that's like a lifelong endeavor and, and there's power in that. And, and, and I've carried that with me ever since. So, yeah, I'm a lifelong learner and, and you, you said it, like, there's so much you don't know. And it's cliche, but it, it's true. Like, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Uh, the more questions you ask, the more answers you get. All it does is open up the world to even more questions, right? And if you start to think you've figured it all out, then you're, you're just closed minded.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Like, more questions should just open more questions, right?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're limiting your, um, your reach, your possibility, your potential, even your connection with the world and other people. The other thing that you touched on that I want to, um, expand on or really make explicit is the contrast of learner is somebody who is a knower. And the way that you even described earlier, a knower, like, maybe there's a lot of bolstering happening. Or there's this large ego maybe that is present too, and you mentioned being closed minded. But one of the other things I want to name, um, that you've also alluded to here is there is a cost to being the knower. And that cost includes when you said, whoa, I had permission to be a learner.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  And even somatically, your body kind of opened and relaxed when you said that here, reliving that moment. Which is this idea of, you know, when you're in the situation of being a learner. You're the go-to person all the time. You're expected to get it right. Other people get a limited amount of expansion because they're going to you to know it. And they're even questioning whether or not they have a capability to know. So you're always like the centralized brain for everything and all things. And there's less space for you to not know, to learn, to explore and to harness other people's knowledge. So people who are often in this knower stance are like, are the first ones to also burn out.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  The first ones to have so much pressure and exhaustion because they feel they always have to know the answer. So there's this thought that there's this uh um degree of of um. I don't want to say leverage, but this persona of, oh, Jonathan always has it. Go ask Jonathan. You feel indispensable. You feel, yeah, I have it going on. But we always ask, we often ask people at what cost? So you ask yourself what cost to you as a knower and what cost to your team members, your kids? If you're always the one with the answer. So there is a big cost to being a knower.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  And even the the how that you described. The knower doesn't always necessarily have to be boisterous or the first person to talk, etc. They can be quiet, closed off, other things. But your ability and your space for connection greatly decreases. And we all need to be connected to ourselves, connected to the world around us and others. The other thing that helps us to live this kind of what I call like a transformational life is learning and growth. Like, we're wired for learning and growth. And of course, the last thing is rest and spaciousness. And you really cut off your eyes of getting rest and spaciousness when everybody's coming to you for answers and solves and fixes.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and the burnout is absolutely real. And I'm glad you you frame it that way because absolutely there's different ways the the knower can manifest. And and sometimes it's ego and arrogance and and negative, toxic ways. And and then other times, it's just it's super well meaning, right? And it's it's individuals who just want to help. And they they have past experiences, they have knowledge, they they just want to be supportive of their team. But inadvertently, they, you know, and they become kind of the savior of their team and and they cut off growth of their team. They become the bottleneck. People are, you know, strengthening their own mind muscles.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  And yeah, it just it just really inhibits. And inadvertently, it's not their intention, I don't think, but inadvertently, people start to check out on their team because they they're like, where's the opportunity for my creativity, my innovation? Everything has to go through so and so anyways. And if they don't agree with me, then, you know, I'm not going to be able to do it. And it again, it just it starts to feel like micromanagement. And that that's not the intention. And it's it's not ego driven. But yet, the knower, regardless of the intention behind it, it can have really negative consequences for for the team, for the organization, and certainly

• 12:10Speaker 00

  for the knower, because they they can just burn out if they don't have good boundaries around it. So are we saying it's not good to know stuff? Of course not. Like, you want to learn and you want to know. You want to become knowledgeable and have experiences and lived experiences, super valuable, and it gives you wisdom, all of that. But there's a fundamental difference between knowing and thinking you have it all figured out, and knowing and staying curious and wanting to continue to learn, right? That's right. So how do you foster that? Because, you know, especially, I think, in organizations and as leaders that you get older, so you're, you know, older and wiser and more experienced, you're you're getting promoted and you're advancing in your career. So you're now in

• 12:54Speaker 00

  senior leadership positions. And you're there for a reason. You're there because you've been successful. So how do you maintain the humility and curiosity? When, you know, everything signals that you have it all figured out?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  I think a good example is what you offered us earlier. Is that when you give everybody else the permission to also be in a learning mode. Not only does it make the organization or the team better because there's going to be more rigor. And nothing's necessarily just taken for granted. And if you're always in that mode of giving other people around to permission to learn, they're going to be elevating you also. And pushing you to not just be sitting in nostalgia. The way we've always done it, and of course, this is the way to do it. Even I don't have, I have disdain for that term best practices. Because it can leave people in a stagnant place versus an ideal or a way that has worked before. To bring rigor in and to invite innovation.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  The learning aspect and the permission to keep growing is important. What people often forget though is the vulnerability of being a learner that I mentioned before is failing. And we know people don't like that feeling of failing, especially when you're doing it publicly. But what helps is when you're giving other people a permission to learn and to grow. It's usually can more easily be reframed as we are learning and growing together. Often coach leaders to when they are very nervous about getting something wrong or not knowing or saying, I don't know. And then people, their idea is or the story they're telling themselves is that people are going to say, well, why do we have you in that role, John?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  You know, if you're, if you're saying you don't know versus the idea of, hey, you know what? I think you all are as smart as I am. I want to hear your ideas as well. Then the failure becomes our group endeavor. Our group endeavor as a beta and not just John dictating the answer. This idea of giving people permission to be learners and for us to also fail together. Because even if I'm giving John the leeway to run with something that's new and different, I'm also backing him. So we are learning together versus just failing together. And just saying, hey, that was a miss. How do we, how are we going to reiterate? So this idea of leaders as they elevate, if they keep an environment around them.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Of being permissive learners and therefore expected failures at points too. Then we are all constantly knowing that this is our job is there's an expectation that we continue growing. You can't, and that also means there's this expectation of resilience. I expect you to get it wrong and then we're gonna get right back to it. Versus I got the answer, it's going to work and now I'm going to excommunicate you because you got it wrong. Or I have to be the knower and I'm so nervous about anybody else that I'm controlling it until your point like the micromanagement comes across. The burnout starts happening. I have to take on this um identity that often can relay a lot of energy as if I'm the only one who can do so the withdrawal happens.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  So creating an environment around you for per uh permission to learn and permission to fail can change the environment and the expectation of you as well.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  I love it and I I'm I'm reflecting on experience that I experiences that I've had on teams with you know leaders that I would say have have done this well and others who haven't done it so well and opportunities I've had in leadership roles where you know maybe I've I feel like I've done it fairly well and other times where I've I've missed. And it's interesting because like I think we can all point to you know to bad experiences that we've had in teams and with leaders. And hopefully we've all had positive experiences that we can learn from and and you know look back to as good guideposts.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Um I'm glad I I really am happy that I can you know think about you know some of those good experiences where I'm I'm really you know confident that I had a good impact. I empowered my team um you know that a lot of those things that you were just describing um you know I I think I did effectively. Um but I know that there were times that I didn't do that effectively and I know there were times that that some on the team didn't feel that way or they didn't feel safe to experiment or they didn't feel safe to um yeah they didn't they they just didn't feel um secure enough uh to to be able to be vulnerable enough to to learn. Um some of that you know I think is is under my control as a leader, some of it.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  That is is legacy baggage of just like societal norms and expectations that we carry with us. That, you know, it's part of our job as a leader to kind of repackage the norms like for our team and and create the culture and help everyone understand like, no, this is how it's going to be for our team. I don't care what it was like on your last team. I don't care if it was cutthroat. I don't care if, you know, whatever, like, no, this is how it's going to be for us. And and I can definitely see though, times where I didn't do that well. Um. And so people come in and then they just, they don't, they don't fully understand, like now, I don't, it's not going to be that way. And so they don't, it does, doesn't jive well, you know, um, what would be your advice to to leaders, you know, who are in that tension?

• 18:18Speaker 00

  You know, they they recognize the importance of what we're talking about and and I suspect that most leaders, you know, they know that micromanagement is bad. Most leaders, you know, wake up in the morning wanting to be a good leader. They wake up in the morning wanting to empower their people, that to be supportive. Most leaders probably want to do much of what we're talking about, at least on an intellectual level. And I think I I would suspect most leaders would not see themselves as arrogant or toxic, you know, and so, but they they, you know, we we all find ourselves at times in situations where we just are not seeing the outcomes we want.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  We're we're seeing people on our teams who don't seem to feel safe or secure, who don't seem to be demonstrating, you know, the types of behaviors we think would come from people who feel safe and secure, right? What would be your advice to leaders in that situation? You know, either with themselves or or with their team?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  One thing is for leaders, if you ask them what uh success looks like and what their role requires. And a lot of times they'll go to very tactical, you know, KPIs or revenue or different things. But what has to be a percentage of that pie in their role is creating an enabling environment for success? An enabling environment for others to actually rise up to the occasion that's going to lift up the team to have a greater success. So that just that enabling environment tells you a lot about how do I need to show up and how do I need to be versus the what and compelling the force of people performing and doing things. But understanding that you're the carrier for the environment really shifts a lot of

• 20:01Speaker 01

  the skills that you know that you might need to lean into. And I think that's important. A lot of leaders just think about the bottom line, the KPI, or what's happening. But what you see say, hey, part of this is also your role is creating the enabling environment. It changes different things. One of the other things that you noted was, you know, while people don't feel very safe, they sometimes shut down, they're not saying as much, et cetera, they start withdrawing. The other aspect of the workplace that is where there is a dearth of, and I think you could probably say in society as well, is there are not a lot of accountable spaces.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  So accountable spaces, the relationship we have with the word accountability is usually pretty harsh, right?

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Like, John, now you're gonna be fired, or the shaming and blaming, that's what often comes, people think.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  There's either like no accountability, it's like either or, no accountability or chop off your head, right?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And people think if I'm creating an empathetic space or an enabling environment, they automatically think that means I'm also not holding people accountable. Because accountability means I'm being mean or harsh, et cetera. And one thing that we have to reframe is this idea of accountability and recognizing that you can hold people accountable with generosity. And actually, one tool that's very powerful in holding people accountable is just curiosity.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  So, John, if you said some, if you did or said something or an impact was X, Y, and Z, me just asking and saying, hey, well, tell me more about the impact that you intended and what you felt like it did have. And the curiosity will make you slow down to think about, what was I doing? What was my intention? Oh, man, maybe my how wasn't so great. But this idea of accountability is so important because that's the only way you're gonna sustain things that are really difficult, like a mindset of being a learner and accepting failure for yourself and your team, is having the rigor of curiosity and leaning in in that way, which allows us to have accountability. Because you're absolutely right, most people don't have the stamina, the grit, or the skills to hold people accountable in a way that.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Also holds the environment or the status of the culture as well. And we've had all these other ways that we talk about spaces and I heard you say, you know, feeling safe, like a safe space, or a brave space, or the buzzword of psychologically safe space. And none of those actually include a clear through line of accountability and also understanding how power plays in different organizations. It's just that you're supposed to be safe and what do we do to make... So for me to make sure that Jonathan is safe, it may mean that a lot of other things can never be brought into the environment. Because safety, in a sense of safety, is so subjective. For me to say that, hey, I want Jonathan to be brave and to be able to lean in and

• 22:45Speaker 01

  say that thing and be vulnerable, it also isn't meaning that Jonathan has to be accountable, though, for the impact. We're glad that you're courageous, but we're gonna hold you accountable for that. And then for psychological safety, it is, there's a complete absence of talking about how power plays through, and especially with identity, et cetera, and that it's the responsibility just of a leader. There's no psychological safety in a space. If the two people who may not even be leading the team go down the hallway and they start saying, ah, that sucked out, was terrible, they were this, they were that, what happens outside of there also devolves psychological safety, so that's not an aspect.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  But if you have accountable spaces, accountability with generosity, it is a very different ballgame because you allow learning, you allow failure and innovation, but we all know that we're gonna be held accountable, but not in this necessarily punitive way, but we're gonna be held responsible for what our impact is. Not your intention, we want you to be able to say what your intentions were, but we want you to unpack, was that successful and that happened how you want it to, not only because of outputs, but also overall impact, even in the environment. And we are woefully, woefully so poor.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  At doing that, we do not have the skills to create spaces like this. And we have to, and I I've heard some of your podcasts before, like this part about emotional intelligence. So important, the ability to self regulate when someone's giving you hard feedback. The ability to self regulate when you're about to say something that feels uncomfortable for people. Like, we do not, the emotional regulation, the nervous system regulation, the tools to actually be able to communicate and relay in such a way and hold ourselves accountable to, woefully deficient in that.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, well said. So many things to unpack there. Unfortunately, I know the time and I need to let you go and here in a minute. But before we wrap things up, I wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, your team, where they can find your your recent book. And then give us the final word for today.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I'm so excited about my book and some of these points I talked about are in the book. It takes a coaching stance, which means people will do a lot of self reflection through it. But it's called Anchor-Aligned Accountable and How to Transcend the Bullshit to Transform Your Life at Home and at Work. Pick one random house book and I hope that people will read it and it'll support their leadership in life.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Where can they, where can they find it?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  They can find it at Reparations Book Club is where we're targeting people to get it. And of course, they can get it at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or anywhere else. If they'd like to have more information about me, they can follow me on LinkedIn. And we have a Streetlights newsletter on leadership that we always put out or on Instagram. And our Instagram handle is at rare R A R E underscore coach C O A C H. Thank you, Jonathan.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, get connected, find out more about what Iko can do for you. Check out the book and as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. That you can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day, and I hope you all have a great week.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.