Leading with Generational Differences in the Workforce, with Dr. Meghan Grace

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Dr. Meghan Grace about generational differences in the workforce and how leaders can better understand and balance the different needs and interests of their workers. Dr. Meghan Grace is a leading generational expert whose research on Generation Z spans the last decade and has helped companies, universities, and associations understand generations to work better together. In speaking with groups around the world, Meghan prioritizes understanding the human experience while providing data-informed insights about generations. Guided by multiple studies, Dr. Grace helps connect the dots between getting to know a generation and knowing what makes them tick. She is the host of the podcast, #GenZ and has co-authored three books on Generation Z with a new book on generations in the workplace coming later this year. When she isn’t researching, speaking, writing, or podcasting about generations, she co-leads the Institute for Generational Research and Education. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Meghan Grace, welcome to the conversation today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  It's a real pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Denmark. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today, we're going to be talking about leading with generational differences in the workforce. With people living longer, we're now seeing upwards of five generations in the workforce all at one time. And it's always been a challenge to lead with multiple generations in the workforce. But now, if you talk to any leader, they're going to list off a whole bunch of different things that they're dealing with. But generational differences is always going to be towards the top of some of the challenges that they're facing. How do you deal with these young Gen Z workers juxtaposed to baby boomers?

• 1:22Speaker 00

  Or even some silent generation folks still working in the workforce and everything in between? And there are huge differences. There are huge cultural differences, mindset differences. And I do want to couch this within the introductory statement that obviously anytime we're talking about generational cohorts, we're making large generalizations. And obviously, not everyone is the same within a generational cohort. There are individual differences. People have their... Within a cohort of any size, there's going to be individuals that have their own desires and needs and attitudes and whatever. But we're talking in broad swaths here, generalities. But yeah, generally speaking, there are some

• 2:07Speaker 00

  pretty big differences across some of these... Different age cohorts and it it becomes a challenge when you're trying to lead and and so we're going to unpack this, we're going to explore this together. As we get started, I wanted to share Megan's bio with everybody. Dr. Meghan Grace is a leading generational expert whose research on Gen Z spans the last decade and has helped companies, universities and associations understand generations to work better together. And speaking with groups around the world, Meghan prioritizes understanding the human experience while providing data-informed insights about generations. Guided by multiple studies, Dr. Grace helps connect the dots between getting to know a generation and knowing what makes them pick.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  She is the host of the podcast Gen Z and has co-authored three books on Generation Z with a new book on generations in the workplace coming soon, or it may have already come out. When she isn't researching, speaking, writing or podcasting about generations, she co-leads the Institute for Generational Research and Education. Just such a wonderful resource to be sitting down with today. Such a pleasure. Megan, anything you would like to highlight by way of your background, personal context before we dive on in?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I mean, you covered it a lot. I think Gen Z got us, got me into this. But a little bit of it comes from being a millennial and having a lot of people tell millennials how we are and never really asking what we are. It was really funny because like as a millennial growing up, that's kind of right around when generational research really took off. Like we knew about previous generations, but like the study of them. And it's just funny because like we got painted as like the me generation. I was like, but nobody actually asked me. So I just find that really ironic, but yeah, Gen Z got us into it. But honestly, my millennial experience has really powered me to be like, how do we create better collaborative conversations about generations?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Instead of again, pitting each other against each other because that's not going to do us any good. Never has, never will.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And I am right in that, you know, it's been coined the Zenial kind of in-between generation. You know, I'm like right at the tail end of Gen X, right at the beginning of millennial, kind of that no man's land, kind of right in between. Between where I really identify with both. And yeah, so I started doing generational studies around millennials. Yeah, probably fifteen years ago, because I was fascinated by all the rhetoric around millennials and a lot of kind of like these kids, you know, kids these days kind of rhetoric, you know, that was going on and I was just fascinated by it. And of course, now it's all transitioned to Gen Z, you know, Gen Z

• 4:48Speaker 00

  socially societal commentary, but also within the workplace. And it's so, it's so interesting because it just all shifts, right? Every generation, every new generation, you know, it's just kind of the same thing. And I suspect if we go all the way back in time to Silent Generation or Baby Boomers, they were saying the same thing about Gen X. You know, just in different ways. And so some of it is just simply the fact that the youngest generation coming in is always going to deal with, you know, some of this kind of, you know, the newcomer effect of, you know, being the new ones in the workforce, the new ones, you know, as young adults. But that said, there are still some pretty dramatic differences as a cohort, right? As an age cohort.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that comes from, I mean, that the difference in that is like, the way that I describe it is our brains growing up, like the human brain develops, we've got that pretty locked down on how we know that occurs through, you know, being a teenager, adolescent and young adult, like we, we've known that for a while. But it's how that, you know, teenage and young adult brain is reacting to the world around them is really where we see that big shift in generations. And so that's a little bit of the theory behind it. The theoretical kind of underpinnings is what's going on when people are, you know, coming up in the world is really the, the big lens that creates this generational cohort culture of what we look at it. And that's where it's like, we're having cultural differences in the workplace, in different environments, different organizations,

• 6:17Speaker 01

  different institutions of society, is that we've got different cohorts of people trying to say, this is what's important to me and this is how we do things. I think for a really long time, like it was just very like kids these days, or my current favorite is like older people just don't understand it, they'll never understand it kind of thing. And it, it does us no good to be like, how dare those old people or how dare those young people. But that is, that is just how it's been through society. Like you can trace it back in media to like early print media where it's like, today's youth are lazy and we're like, yeah, we hear that today too.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and yeah, and it doesn't just go from kind of older generations towards younger generations. It is also younger generations toward older generations. So kind of the whole boomer thing, right? Like younger people, you know, calling everyone who's like over thirty a boomer anytime they say, which I just think is hilarious, you know, because do you actually know what a boomer is? You know, but anyways, it's just funny. I find it hilarious, you know, because I'm, no, I'm not a baby boomer. Like, I'm actually quite a bit younger than a baby boomer, but you know, I get it. It's just a, it's just kind of a meme, right? Anyways, so all of that's fascinating. It's a, it's a fun backdrop, I think, to the broader conversation.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Let's dig in to, to really this dynamic that we have of just so many generations working side by side in the workforce today, more so than we've ever seen in, in the labor market. Talk to us a little bit about that.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  You're absolutely right. So we've got older generations who are living longer, staying healthier longer, staying fit longer, that it's this, they're trying to stay engaged in the workplace. And so we've got a larger, older population than we've ever had, working a little bit out of necessity, but then also out of capability. And people are either not retiring or they're kind of doing golden retirements, where they're like, I did my thirty plus years in corporate finance. I want to go work at Lowe's and talk about my true passion in life, which is woodworking, right? Like, so they're, they're kind of reconnecting in retirement as well. And so we're seeing that with baby boomers and we're seeing that with, with fewer silent gen.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  There's not as many living, but there are some that are out there and they're working. And so that's one piece of it. Then we're also

• 8:30Speaker 00

  I'll use just as an example, my mother, my mother who just retired like two weeks ago. She is seventy-six, going on seventy-seven. She's a social worker. So she just retired from her full-time social work job, like going on seventy-seven, but she still like runs a bed and breakfast. Like, like, and, and she'll probably continue to do that. And she's very healthy. She'll probably continue to do that. That's a very like, you know, you got some work in the morning. She doesn't clean or anything. She has other people that does that. So she like, you know, she like book, she books the room. She'll, she'll like make the breakfast in the morning. You know, she greets the guests like, and she really likes that. She likes the, the personable stuff. Um, she'll probably do that as long as she can because she likes it.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Right?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Well, and that's also, that supports like what we learned from gerontology of healthy aging has, uh, it helps people with a sense of purpose. Uh, and then this idea of having social connection. And so that's actually probably your mom staying focused on something is probably going to extend her life. Even though it feels counterintuitive to rest to continue to work, it's a lower, slower pace of work, but it's filling a lot of cups that gerontologists would say is important for older people to, to stay active mentally and socially and physically. Um, in, in extending life. And so you, I'm not surprised. I think we're going to continue to see even much older, uh, baby boomers continuing to work as, as long as they can. Um, and there's a financial piece of that too. They kind of got a late start on retirement savings.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Um, and so some of them are feeling kind of the, the pressure of, yeah, they've got enough to live on, but they might want to, uh, be able to have a little extra money for vacation. Or take the grandkids and go do something. And so they're working kind of for fun money, um, on top of their retirement right now.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And sorry, I interrupted you.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no, not a problem. But I was like, yes, that's actually probably a good thing for really, uh, you know, keeping her brain and body moving. And that's the best thing for people as they get older.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think for her, it's a great situation. Uh, and, uh, obviously, uh, it depends, right? It depends on the situation and I don't, I don't want any, any one who's older, who has to work like a grinding job. Just because they can't retire, right? Like, that's not the same thing though. And, and, and she's in a great situation anyways. But you're, you're right. Like there, there, we just have people living longer, uh, being healthier, longer, um, having skills that they can contribute longer. And people switching careers, um, and, and in later years often deciding, hey, I don't want to do the corporate grind anymore. Uh, I, you know, I've, I've done the executive stuff, maybe in my last, you know, golden years, I'll,

• 11:08Speaker 00

  I'll just scale back like I'll continue to work, but I won't do the high stress stuff, right? I'll do stuff that's, you know, I can still interact with people. I can still contribute. I can still demonstrate my capabilities, but I don't have to like do the grind. I don't have to stress. I can scale back, right?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Well, and that's even where we're seeing sometimes baby boomers, we're also seeing as they're staying in the workforce of like taking a step back from me like I don't need to be the managing partner. I just wanna be a contributor. Like my dad has been in his role as baby boomer. He's done his work for most of my life. And so like my conscious memory is my dad in this industry. So he has thirty plus years of experience in this and they're like, do you wanna lead a team? He's like, I do not wanna be responsible for other people. I just wanna do my job. I wanna get my benefits. I wanna enjoy who I work with, but I don't wanna be responsible for supervising or managing people. And so I think that's also an interesting thing of, as we think of workers on the older end of the spectrum of who's still engaged

• 12:07Speaker 01

  of meaningful engagement doesn't necessarily always be managing or supervising others. But my dad is also a really good mentor to the younger members of his team to say, I did this job analog before computers were a part of this. So let me teach you the mental models that are necessary. And I think that that's just kind of reconfiguring the way that we think about leading older generations, especially millennials and Gen Xers who might be leading up for, for baby boomers or older team members. The other piece of your original question before we talked about your lovely mother and her her B and B is that we're also seeing younger generation coming in. And the kind of the joke with college students is like, I've got five years of work experience, even though I'm eighteen or like, you know,

• 12:49Speaker 01

  because they feel the pressure of needing to be competitive in the job market. So they're kind of stacking skills. They're collecting skills and they're kind of preparing to get into that job market. Or what we're seeing is a growing trend with Gen Z is really questioning whether college is the right route for them or if workplace, if workplace training or software coding is gonna be more valuable for them to start work and do a Google, you know, developer bootcamp and then go into software coding. That's some students or that's Some young people, not all of them. And I think really the crunch that we're seeing right now, especially around millennials being a huge generation. The way that I kind of talk about what's going on with millennials is a lot of them are approaching,

• 13:32Speaker 01

  if they're not already in middle management, being in that space of if they're not in the executive ranks, but they're getting to that point where they are leading teams and really starting to take leaps in, in advancing their career. But the best way to put what's happened to millennials about two or three times in their career development is that the rules of advancement, the rules of how to get ahead in work have changed. So between the 2008 recession, the pandemic, and it just about everything else that has occurred, as much as they're playing by the rulebook that was written by and for baby boomers, and then followed by Gen X, it does not apply to them anymore. So the idea of loyalty in the corporate grind is really being confronted by our younger generations, and that's creating a big friction point for Gen Z who's never fully subscribed

• 14:15Speaker 01

  to the idea of corporate loyalty and this idea of like being a lifer. And then this idea that millennials felt like they have burned out, doing what they can to get ahead, to not get the reward, the compensation, or the advancement that they were kind of promised. So they were like, what? The rules don't apply to us anymore. And now we're not getting the things that we were told we were supposed to get. And so there's three really distinct big factors at play. And then we can't leave out Gen X who's sitting in this really kind of middle age, but not middle child, but they are the sandwich generation right now where they're caregiving on both ends. So they're caregiving to older and aging parents and then growing families, a lot of them.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  And so they're managing mortgage and college payment, supporting elder care and their younger children. And so their kind of place in work is, I kind of feel like they're quietly hustling because they have a lot of demands on them right now that are outside of work. But they're still managed to keep all the balls in the air. And so it's a really interesting time to be leading teams right now, to say it gently.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  So, yeah, so much there. So as a leader, regardless of what age cohort you happen to be in, you know, as a leader, and obviously that's going to impact things, but let's just take that out. And let's just say that doesn't matter for a second and it really does, but let's just say it doesn't. Um, how, how do you start to go about leading, you know, a diverse team, a multi-generational team, where the needs, the desires, the wants, the career aspirations, like all these things are different across the, this diverse group of, of different age group of, of individuals on your team?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So what we talk about in our most recent book, Generations in the World of Work, is our breakdown of the four predominant generations in the workplace right now. Um, and in that, we actually conducted a study and we are able to pull in insights directly from, you know, cohorts of each of these generations. And we started to frame it in what are, where we are like regardless of generation. That should be the foundation, almost like the checklist that you go through of like, are these things present? Okay, then I'm just supporting this human regardless of their age and life stage. If they're not, then maybe we need to go back to the basics or go back to the foundation. And then if we're still having a problem, it's kind of pivoting and saying this might be a generational thing, whether it's life stage or truly generational lens.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  And so like a good example of that is, um, you know, motivations for work and why people want to do their jobs. Regardless of industry and life age, our universal motivations to work is to feel a sense of purpose, to make some money because there's nothing wrong with that. And to feel like we are using our skills, like we're contributing something. Um, and this idea of meaningful work is different for every person. But going through that of like, am I compensating my employees well? Yes or no? Um, do they have a sense of purpose? Yes or no? A lot of times we do a really bad job as leaders explaining the purpose of things. We just assume people understand it and we do not explain the why, we do not explain the purpose, we do not explain the vision, we just sort of like go do your job. And so people get really disconnected from their work.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  And so that's one that I think it's like, go back to the basics, explaining the purpose of things. And then the other piece of it is, are people able to actually use a skill? And if you can't see that they're using that skill, there's a good chance that they're feeling like they're not being utilized to the fullest degree. So that's like the people across the board kind of mindset. And then I would say go into what are some of the generationally specific things? That are going to matter to people at work. So our book goes into a lot of detail, but sometimes it's understanding the life stage that a person is at has a really big influence on their motivation to show up at work in the way that they do. So again, baby boomers might not want to lead an entire team, but they would love to mentor

• 17:58Speaker 01

  an up and comer to share that knowledge. Gen Xers are motivated by the idea of having flexibility and autonomy because they have the life experience. They have life going on outside of work, so you can trust them to get their job done. Millennials are still desiring that ability to advance in their career and have that legitimacy and prove, not prove their worth, but show that they've got it. And so they might be motivated for the opportunity to take on more leadership. And then Gen Z'ers are really motivated right now to collect new skills and build their portfolio. And so when I think about how leaders have to operate in this, it's what we call toggle leadership. But the idea that I can look at this person and say, are these basic human needs met for why people like to work? And then what could they potentially be going through in a life stage perspective?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  That I can help support them through that in the workplace. Supervisors and managers don't have to be the be all and the end all for solving every single problem for every single employee. But just being a good human and checking in with that person to say, hey, what's going on in your world? That doesn't have anything to do with work or that does have to do with work that I can help you navigate in a, in a more approachable manner.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  I like that idea of toggle leadership. That's, that's a phrase that encapsulates the, this challenge, I think, in a, in a way that I haven't heard before. You know, sometimes we talk about like code switching or we talk about, you know, different ways that we kind of reframe or, or communicate differently. Depending on audience or depending on, you know, the, the, the person that we're sitting in front of. I think this toggle idea is, is another way of framing that up and I, I really like it. The bottom line is you gotta know your people. You gotta understand that everyone's going to be different. And even, you know, the little caveat I gave at the very beginning of our conversation today, even within age cohorts, obviously people are going to be different. And so you can't assume that just because someone is a Gen Z or a millennial.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Or a Gen X or a baby boomer that they're going to necessarily going to be like every other baby boomer or every other Gen X or whatever. Like people are different, you know, maybe some someone has, you know, a family and a new baby and maybe someone else, you know, whatever, like everyone's different. So, so the bottom line is you just need to know your people, you need to be able to sit down with them and you need to be able to switch between the needs of each individual on your team. Now, the, I think the other piece to this is it's getting harder and harder, I think, to do that because teams are getting larger and larger. I was reading a study recently in part due to AI, increased automation and the, the technological disruption, teams are growing.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  And, and so managers, supervisors are often now leading instead of kind of the old, the old idea of like span of control was, you know, a, a leader might, you know, have a team of like seven people or, or something like that. A large team might grow and upwards of 10 to even 15. Now they're, I mean, there are organizations that have leaders that are, are leading teams of 30 to 40 people. Because, because of like AI and automation and they, they figure out that that's doable, that's kind of nuts, right? And so now that we're in this brave new world of like leaders trying to like personalize their approach. In the way that we're talking about, it becomes harder and harder.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Any thoughts on that? Like, how, how do you lead a diverse team in terms of all forms of diversity? But specifically to what we're talking about today in terms of generational diversity. How do you lead effectively a diverse team, a generationally diverse team? If, if you're in that kind of a dynamic, like with a huge team.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  I think that the thing that, um, I think a lot of times both leaders and those being led, we rely on assumptions, right? So we assume that other person is going to take the time to tell me about themselves. Well, I don't feel like I know that much about the person I'm leading, it's my responsibility. I always believe that leadership is a responsibility and it is both a burden and a gift. And so like, if I don't know that much about the person that I'm leading, that's on me. So I need to be the person's grave and ask the question and go say, you know, what's going on in your world? Don't tell me about work yet, let's take five minutes, not like, how's your. Weekend, but like, what is going on in your world? Like, what's something you've done outside of work that you've really enjoyed? And that is a small thing that creates that connection. Um, I used to work at a place where one of our mantras was like, relationships drive results.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  And so one way or the other, if you don't have good relationships, you're probably going to get bad results. If you have great relationships, I mean, the math maths. Uh, and so I think it's, it's sometimes it's hard when you've got thirty people that you need to be accountable for. And you might not become best friends with every single person on day one that they work there. But it's keeping a pulse. And if you've got your roster of your team going through and be like, I know three things about that person that I can build that connection with that person. Or, um, I think about like, uh, some of the best relational leaders, um, that in our society or school teachers. They manage thirty people all the time, all day, every day.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  That's a good point.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Day in and day out for eight hours a day. Um, and they find ways to learn about their students. A lot of times it's doing an about me project and that sounds so rudimentary. But that could take fifteen minutes in an all hands meeting to be like, I want you to create a mood board of what's going on in your life. Like that might be a little touchy feely for some people, but you can learn a lot about someone in the way that they creatively express. Um, and so I do, I encourage people to be like, okay, who's doing, um, leaders can oftentimes we can find inspiration. When we look to other industries, so like, I always look to people like teachers and doctors who are sometimes nurses who are, uh, complete public servants. And give so much and manage so much in high stress situations. And say, well, what are they doing that like I can emulate in my work?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And so I, I believe that our school teachers do a really good job of learning and leading, um, thirty plus people on a daily basis towards really difficult things. Um, so emulate your favorite teacher, I guess, is what I would say. Uh, it's a good one.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  That is a really great example, great point. Megan, this has just been a great conversation. I know at the time I'm going to need to let you go here in a minute. But before we wrap things up for today, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, where they can find your books. Uh, and then give us the final word for today.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, so thank you for having me. Um, best place to, if you're really enjoying this idea of like, how do I lead for different generations in my workplace? Are both generations in the world of work is there for you? Available on Amazon, also through our publisher. So we can make sure that links go out for that. It's an actual read. We really never try to write about research without it being like, you can also do this. So that is one way. You can follow along with the Institute for Generational Research and Education. Our website is institute four, the number four, gens.org. And then if you want to connect with me, I'm available on LinkedIn. I love connecting on LinkedIn. It's one of my favorite places to connect with people and continue to share about that kind of stuff.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  So easy to find, I think, if you spell my name right on the internet.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Wonderful. Thank you so much, Megan. It's been a real pleasure. Encourage the audience to reach out, to get connected, find out more about what Megan can do for you. Check out the books. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. They can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day, and I hope you all have a great week.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe, and please join us again soon.