The Workplace Is the Disability: Rethinking Neurodiversity at Work, with Shaun Arora

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Shaun Arora about what companies get wrong about neurodiversity. Shaun Arora seeks opportunities in the margins. As a coach, he propels leaders and their teams to thrive. Emerging leaders, founders, and technologists seek out Shaun’s lens to explore non-linear pathways for reducing daily friction as they grow their companies and their teams. While working within organizations as a coach, advisor, and COO, he has built the infrastructure and workflows that transform a company’s neurodiversity into a strength and asset. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Sean Aurora, welcome to the conversation today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Thank you, John.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  It is a real pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Canada. I am in the US, south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today, we're going to be talking about neurodiversity in the workplace, you know, challenges there, what companies are getting right, what they're getting wrong about neurodiversity, and really what we can do better to improve the context, the situation for neurodiverse individuals in the workplace, and how neurotypical individuals can be better supporters of neurodiverse individuals in the workplace. As we get started, I wanted to share Sean's bio with everybody. Sean Arora seeks opportunities in the margins. As a coach, he propels leaders and their teams to thrive. Emerging leaders, founders,

• 1:21Speaker 00

  and technologists seek out Sean's lens to explore nonlinear pathways for reducing daily frictions as they grow their companies and their teams. While working within organizations as a coach, advisor, and COO, he has built the infrastructure and workflows that transform a company's neurodiversity into a strength and an asset. And I really love everything about that. And it really, I truly believe, neurodiversity can and should become a strength and an asset to any organization who's thoughtful and intentional about their approach. So, I'm excited to explore how organizations can go about doing this within their organizations. Before we dive on in, anything you would like to share with the audience by way of your own background, personal context?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  I'm happy to just jump right in, but I guess I I could share a little bit of how I got into this work, maybe that'd be helpful. Um, I had to die. Sure. Okay. Um, I had a diagnosis in my forties and um, in those moments, I realized lots of things. It's like um, someone, a comedian once said, getting your neurodiversity, uh, neurodivergent diagnosis is like having one of the best horoscopes ever. It's just incredibly accurate, like all these things just kind of fall into place. And it felt like that for a while. And then the more I dived in, the more I saw there's so much nuance in there. And one of the areas of nuance was how people reacted to it. So with my team, I shared, hey, by the way, I have this diagnosis.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  And the next question was, okay, what does that mean? How's that impact the way we work? And I would say, well, this would be helpful if you could do this, if you catch me doing this, I don't want to do that anymore. So just call me out on these things. And it worked. My team reacted really well and we performed much higher because of that. Um, and when I talked to other people, they don't have that same type of experience. There's a lot of companies out there where that isn't the, that's more the exception. That's not the norm. And for my son, when he received his diagnoses, it was definitely the exception. His school was not prepared for handling any type of neurodivergence. They are barely up to speed on accommodations. And so,

• 3:30Speaker 01

  um, it just really got to me that there's so many people in the world that do not understand how to do this. And how do companies, how do people, schools, institutions figure this out?

• 3:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned, you know, your, your diagnosis in your forties, your son's diagnosis uh, as a child. Uh, you know, certainly things have changed a lot, you know, over the decades and, and we're in a different place today than we were, you know, even a couple of decades ago. Uh, so hopefully things have improved. Um, but you, you just mentioned how, you know, things actually were better for you in your workplace than they were for your son at his school. Um, you know, so you know, maybe diagnoses, you know, have gotten better, or maybe we are catching things earlier, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the way we approach it, uh, the way accommodations are.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Are dealt with the way organizations are are able to handle them that that all is actually any better than it was, you know, previously. And so it just, I just want to point that out. Like, just to reiterate that it doesn't necessarily mean that things are better today.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Can you double click on that?

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, please.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. In fact, I've been thinking about this a lot recently because in some ways it it isn't better. In some ways it is. But in the ways that's not better is a company might have a neurodiversity awareness week and neurodiversity awareness month program. And when you do that, you're creating the expectation that you're going to do some of the things that you say during that week. And when you don't follow through, all of a sudden, you have these people who's like, oh, my God, I had this opportunity to represent more of who I am and to feel more included. I could ask for accommodations. And these companies lack the infrastructure to support that. And so I feel like a lot of companies are just set up to fail because they feel the pressure to do it from a marketing standpoint, from a HR standpoint, and then

• 5:18Speaker 01

  they don't back it up with the actual workflows and processes inside. It feels like also language is really tricky. And if you follow LinkedIn, there's just all these influencers that are saying, you have to say this, you can't say that. And I hear from a lot of managers, like, just tell me what to say. I can't keep up with this. I read this book two years ago, and already people are saying it's outdated, and I can't do what's what's in that book. So it's just really hard on managers and companies to handle neurodiversity.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's the whiplash effect of of just how things are changing, the language changing. But also, like you said, you know, companies, you know, let's just assume that companies and leaders are well intentioned, right? So so they're having a campaign, they're they're trying to do and say the right things, but then they don't, like you said, the systems, the infrastructure, like, all of that isn't there to actually support everything they're saying. So so they're they're talking the talk, but they can't walk the walk. Let's assume their intentions are real, though, like, they're good intentions. Just because their intentions are good, though, you know, that's not enough. Like, you have to actually be able to do it. And so then you have the whiplash from that, like, people are feeling supported, they feel the warm fuzzies, they feel good.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  About like how the messaging is and then in the real lived experience, the day to day, they don't see it, they don't feel it. And then that whiplash happens and then and then they, you know, they they feel like the rug is pulled out from under them. And that's that's really hard. In some cases, that's almost worse, right? Than just, you know, feeling like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I know what I need to do to make make it work for me and in my team and with my boss and my organization. Um. And so that's, yeah, it's just really hard. And and and I know it's it's hard for neurodivergent individuals. I know it's hard for leaders who may have every good intention in the world to want to be supportive and accommodating. They don't know how, they don't know, they don't have the supports, the infrastructure to help them to do it effectively.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Uh, and everyone seems to be kind of caught in this difficult space. Uh, another thing you mentioned, you know, with your own diagnosis, you're fortunate enough to be able to go back to your team, to have like open dialogue, to be able to explore like this is what works for me, this is what doesn't work for me to have a supportive team. It doesn't always work that way either, though, like sometimes, and and maybe we can talk about this a little bit. Sometimes there's just really the stigma that is attached to a diagnosis, which is also why, and and some of the research that I've done, you know, shows the the the mass of under reporting, like it's it's self-reported, right? So you have to be able to go into your organization and self-report that you have a diagnosis.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  And most people don't. Most people go into their organizations, they never self-report that they have a a diagnosis. Um, and then you ask, well, why? Why wouldn't they report? Well, it's because of the stigma, right? There there there's oftentimes a bit of a backlash, uh, and a stigma attached to these sorts of diagnoses that can potentially hurt somebody, or at least it's perceived, you know, that they it'll hurt them in their career, in their progression in the organization, and their ability to to get good assignments and and all of these sorts of things. Um, and again, I guess ultimately, whether it's real or perceived, you know, it still has the negative impact. And so it's it's a really, that's a really hard nut to crack as well.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's real. Um, most people who do this. Disclose, it ends up going badly. And there's a reason why people have stopped disclosing. Yeah. That's going to change in the very near future. With Gen Z, we see that fifty-three percent of Gen Z are very happy to disclose that they're neurodivergent in the education setting. Once they get to the workplace, I mean, we see those numbers go from fifty percent all the way down to close to like five percent or less.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Luckily, there's mandates to get like above five percent, but in most workplaces without the mandates, you're in like the two to five percent range. So people are really not disclosing. And that is after the hurdles to even get a diagnosis, which is pretty, pretty difficult for most people to do. So imagine getting the diagnosis, going through all that effort and then saying, you know what, I still don't feel safe. I feel like it's going to go badly for me. I feel like there's going to be retaliation. I feel like the company's not going to support me. So just a lot of people don't do it. And which is why I'm working on this book right now called Work Traits. I really want to shift the language because I can't expect my boss to understand everything about a medical diagnosis. I, I can't expect them to have a PhD in psychology.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  So what is a more workplace-friendly way to talk about it? If I say I have autism, you met one person with autism, you met one person with autism, and people just don't know how that would that manifests. So most chief people officers I speak to say, the next question is, what has worked for you in the past? What could I do to support you? Like, what are some of the traits that play on in work that we need to be aware of? What kind of accommodations would you want? Those are the questions that we're having. The diagnosis right now is a ticket to that conversation, but does it have to be? Can't you just have a conversation? Hey, this is my trait. You know, I'm, I, I need this certain thing because of this trait that I have at work. And this will be very helpful. Is this something that the company is willing to provide?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Even better, if the company says, hey, we're able to provide all these things. Here's the buffet. Just pick what you want. And that would be ideal where. You reduce the barrier for disclosure as well, where people could just anonymously go and grab whatever resources they need without any sense of stigma or retaliation.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, so so you're advocating for, you know, a buffet of accommodations without any disclosure, without any self-disclosure. Is that right?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Well, I think I wouldn't say I'm advocating for the buffet. I'm advocating for us to shift the language so that we don't even have to worry about disclosure. Um, the buffet comes with a cost. Uh, if you have an all you can eat buffet, you you gotta be able to afford it. So not every company could do the buffet. But every company could start to have a conversation where you don't force someone to disclose medical information. Where you could actually have a conversation more about the actual work traits instead of the medical label.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So it so, yeah, I I and I agree. I I think. Anytime you you have these friction points, anytime you have these barriers towards inclusion. Um, where people have to like opt in to to find ways to to be included. Uh, yeah, you're you're just gonna have, um, you you're going to have people not, and you're gonna have pain points, and you're gonna have. Um, the types of challenges that we're we're seeing. And so I I think your example of like Gen Z. Students going into the workplace and and self-disclosure going from fifty percent down to, you know, single digits. Is is dramatic, and that's that's the kind of thing we have to pay super close attention to.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  Um, of course, cost is something every business is going to be paying attention to. Anyone in the HR space who's who's paying attention to this um, conversation today. They go back to work and they're thinking, okay, what are we gonna do? We have to manage costs, but we want to have an inclusive workspace. You know, like, what what would you suggest to to any of them? On on what they could start doing, like, cost-effectively, cheap, in a cheap way. To to start to move the needle and make, you know, a more neuro-inclusive space right away.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um, most accommodations cost nothing. It's more of a mindset shift. It's um, some of the stuff out there costs like five hundred dollars. Which is a lot less than losing good talent. So if you spend a lot of money and time and energy trying to recruit talent. And then on day one, you say, hey, we just spent the past three months recruiting you. We just paid a recruiter. And by the way, we actually don't care about your, your feelings or your, we don't want you to be productive. We want to um bring you in, but um hamstring you, handicap you to do your job. So um for example, there was this person I was talking to just a couple of days ago who said that he was allowed to work from home where he was incredibly productive. He had a, a door to his office.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Um, he gets shut out. Uh, when he came into the office, all the remote workers um or the hybrid workers were given a cubicle, not an office. So you have all these engineers who are full time that got the office. And all these engineers who are full time, but just happened to be hybrid, got a cubicle and they were less productive. Why? Why would you try to save money on that one office? And lose out on the productivity. That person left after two years. He was like, I just can't do that. Um, and I can't be full time for whatever reason he had. He had caretaking duties that he had to handle. So he couldn't be in the office. And the company just said, hey, you come in, you need to be in the cubicle, not, not in the office. So

• 14:08Speaker 01

  it's just a different way of thinking about these things. It's being less of a, of a penny pitcher in so many things. This one, all right. There are just so many bad examples of penny pitching. Like this person was on disability and really want to get off disability and want to come back to work. And said, oh, by the way, I just need the subscription to Microsoft Copilot. And they're like, no, we're not going to give you a subscription to Microsoft Copilot. We'd rather you quit. Like, really? Like, I am a senior level person. Like, it's going to cost a lot to replace me. It's like, yeah, but we don't want to spend money on this because it's going to set a precedent for everyone else in the company. Like, really?

• 14:40Speaker 00

  And what's Copilot? What, what is that? Thirty bucks a month or something?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and it is insane and and like, you know, companies, I mean, for any position at any given point in time, they're putting a lot of money into recruiting, into onboarding, into ongoing training, like for any position, right? But especially, you know, for for top level positions and especially for more diverse hires, you know, companies, you know, are are putting a lot of resources into getting folks uh into the room like they want diverse hires. Um. They understand, I think most companies understand the value of having diverse hires. But the problem is just getting the person in the room isn't enough. Like, once they get in the to the room,

• 15:25Speaker 00

  they have to feel like they're actually valued there, like they have to feel needed, wanted, valued, like they have an opportunity to contribute, they have to feel supported. And so you spend all this energy, all this time, all this money to get this person there. And then all of a sudden they get there and they're like, you know, maybe it was a bait and switch, maybe it's they were told it's going to be super supportive and inclusive and they get there and it's not, or or whatever. And they they just get there and then all of a sudden they're like, yeah, I'm I'm out. Like, they might stick around for six months or a year and but then they're gone. And like, all of that effort is is just wasted and it's usually super expensive. Su- usually super expensive and it it really does just blow my mind um how companies will fall into that trap again and again and again.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  When it it really is one of their stated goals, one of their values, like they want, they want this, they at least they say they want this. Um. And it doesn't even from a business case, it doesn't make any sense. Like, they say they want to save money. It doesn't make sense. If if that's your goal, like, it doesn't make sense, like on any level. Um. And so it's like, it's it's this short termism. That's really what it comes down to. It's it's a short termism perspective and like a a bottom line, short term perspective versus, you know, really taking a a good look at like what your values are, what your goals are. And even just like a medium term, like having a medium term perspective on like what your bottom line results could be based on, you know, how you approach

• 16:52Speaker 00

  these types of situations. And yeah, I I. And again, I feel I feel for middle management, for leaders, frontline leaders who often get kind of trapped in in the system, you know, of all of this churn. Because I think a lot of times they they see how ridiculous it is. They see how, you know, they get equally as frustrated by it, but then they they kind of feel stuck too. Man, we sure can do better, though.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And John, let me just think about like the the top, the top down approach. I'm wondering your experience. How often is this the case where there is a a senior leader above the managers who does have a diagnosis that has is out in the open that has disclosed it because I'm sure most leadership teams have somebody who's neurodivergent, whether they disclose or not.

• 17:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I'm I'm thinking of one individual specifically in my own experience who um who had he did not disclose, did not disclose until he left the organization. And then it kind of became a big deal and and he went to a different organization, high profile. And then he kind of had like a big magazine spread and it kind of became this big thing and he disclosed like, you know, I I'm neurodivergent and he he had all it was a big thing, you know. And, you know, I once, once he disclosed and I'm like, okay, yeah, I can I can see these things and and then I but I'm wondering, like, I worked with him for 12 years, like, why, why did he never disclose? Like, why, why did he never just open up to people?

• 18:26Speaker 00

  I suppose people that were really close to him probably knew. And in retrospect, you know, I could see, you know. But, you know, why, why didn't he? And and I'm sure it was because of the culture of the organization, right? Like, in the new place that he was, he felt he felt that he could. And in the place where we had been together, he felt like he couldn't, that it would hurt him, right? I can't think of another reason why it would have been that way. And so I I'm sure it's going to depend. I'm sure for every situation, there's going to be a unique context and, you know, situational analysis of like what, you know, when people feel safe and when they don't feel safe. Whatever, but I just find it so unfortunate that that people have to even go through that calculus,

• 19:11Speaker 00

  you know, in their mind of like, can I afford to do this with my career? Can I, you know, am I going to be stunted? Am I going to be stigmatized? Am I going to, you know, are people going to come up with a convenient excuse to to let me go? Or to like, give the promotion to somebody else or to like, whatever, right? And it certainly could have happened to this person, you know?

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was just looking at my list of four reasons why people don't disclose. The workplace is not psychologically safe. Some employees have well-established coping mechanisms, so they just power through it. They don't see the obvious benefits, or they've observed or experienced downsides of speaking up. And as you're talking, it makes me think about how many people in the pre-me too movement did not speak up about all the stuff that was going on. It was a very similar type of situation where they didn't feel psychologically safe, where losing that job meant a lot. And one of my friends said, hey, I know what's happening at work. You know what's happening at work. Let's all find other jobs before we actually report anything. And everything was kind of sliding under the rug, unfortunately,

• 20:17Speaker 01

  because there's just so many reasons why people choose not to disclose.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and the coping mechanisms piece, you know, the neurotypical kind of presenting individual, like this, this person definitely had lots of coping mechanisms. And and I think a lot of neurodiverse individuals have lots, like, often have lots of coping mechanisms. They they have had to navigate through life, right? And and this individual certainly did have lots of coping mechanisms and and had been able to to navigate and ultimately had had, he he knew he had the coping mechanisms. He had clearly done the calculus and decided it made more sense to just lean on the coping mechanisms and not, you know, have to deal with the other stuff, right? And it really is tragic.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I know that the DI movement got in a lot of trouble over having representation, but having representation at the top makes such a huge difference. And I've seen in so many situations where. Um. As soon as a senior leader says, hey, I have an ADHD diagnosis, um, they become a safe space. They, other people come to them and say, hey, I also have a diagnosis and how are you managing and can you advocate for me? It's just so freeing when you do have that ability to have top down disclosure and to start to build that into the culture. And that's free. That is, that is dirt cheap. A senior leader who's not going to get fired can all of a sudden be, provide the safety that's needed in an organization.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and one of the things that you shared, you know, is just the, and it's completely free. Is, is to just like have the space to have the conversations, like have the open conversation. How do I work best? Right? That, that is something everyone can do. And frankly, like, that's just good leadership. Like, that's what every leader should be doing with their people. Like, if I'm managing anybody, I should be sitting down with them and having an open conversation about, like, how do you work best? How can I support you in that? Like, how do you like to be led? How can I, you know, mentor you and coach you and lead you in a way that's going to support you best? And help you to um, do your best work and to help you to thrive and, you know,

• 22:27Speaker 00

  like, that is just like leadership one oh one. So if, if anyone wants to just be a good leader, you should be doing that anyways. And it doesn't matter if they're neurotypical, neurodiverse or whatever. Like, that, that is just the conversation you should be having already. Anyways, it's completely free. And it will just help you have a better relationship with the people you work with anyways. Um, and it just so happens that if you are working with someone who's uh, neurodiverse, that it will be, uh, it'll open the door for a very, very important conversation. Um, that they hopefully will feel safe to, to share with you the things that they do need. Um, you know, just like anyone else hopefully would share, you know, how they would best work and be most effective.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you have a culture where that sharing is happening naturally, it's, it's amazing, but it's easier said than done. Uh, I've worked with so many leaders who just, they don't have those guides or they don't share those guides. And I know other organizations where they They actually proactively do that. I was talking to this one CHRO and she said, whenever I have two people in conflict, I, I go to them and say, hey, have you looked at this other person's guide? And they're like, no, it's like, all right, how about the two of you go look at each other's guide? And if you still have a conflict, come back to me. And they did, they don't come back. They're like, oh, I understand more of what's going on. Like, I'm not taking this personally anymore. We just have different ways of working. Um, and so, yeah, when you start having conversations about the, the traits, the different ways of working, it's just much easier. And so,

• 23:56Speaker 01

  in order to help leaders actually build those guides, I built something using Claude. Um, it's called work traits. You go to worktrades.ai and basically answer a bunch of prompts and it pulls up a guide. And it's all free. Like, this should be easier. It's not easy enough. This gets you maybe fifty percent, sixty percent there. At least it's better than nothing. And then you can work with people like you and I to like just round it out.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  I love it. I love it. Well, Sean, this has just been an fantastic conversation. I know we've only scratched the surface. There's a whole lot more to dig into around the topic of neurodiversity at work. Um, but, but I think this is a good starting point. And, um, I know at the time I do need to let you go, but as we wrap things up, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work. Uh, and then give us the final word for today.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  All right, sure. Um, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. Uh, my website is mythreerox, all spelled out, dot C O. Um, and then that, uh, tool to make your guide is worktrades.ai. So all those are out there and, um, yeah, I just really appreciate the time. I love sharing what I'm working on and, um, yeah, looking forward to it. Thank you.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Awesome. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, to get connected, find out more about what Sean can do for you. Check out the websites, the resources, and as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. They can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day, and I hope you all have a great week.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe, and please join us again soon.