Navigating Employee Relations in the Modern World of Work, with Jason Greer

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Jason Greer about navigating employee relations in the modern world of work. Jason Greer is the founder and president of Greer Consulting, Inc., a labor management and employee relations consulting firm based in St. Louis. As a nationally recognized expert in the field, Jason is a trusted source of information on the latest race and labor relations news for media outlets including The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and FOX News Radio. He provides valuable insight into breaking stories such as the George Floyd moment, racial protests, and diversity issues in the workplace. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

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• 0:35Speaker 00

  Jason Greer, welcome to the conversation today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Hey, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  It is a pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from North Carolina. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today, we're going to be talking about navigating employee relations. We live in volatile, volatile times, I think it's fair to say. It's really interesting in the current landscape of the workplace, equal employment opportunity, diversity, equity, inclusion, whatever kind of framing you would like to use, given the current political landscape, cultural landscape in the US and abroad. It's, yeah, it's a challenging time, I think, for organizations. It's a challenging time for workers and employees. Everyone's trying to figure out how to navigate in what tends to be a bit of a minefield, I think, for a lot of people.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  And so I'm thrilled to have the chance to sit down with you and have a nice conversation and explore this topic. As we get started, I wanted to share Jason's bio with everybody. Jason Greer is the founder and president of Greer Consulting, a labor management and employee relations consulting firm based in St. Louis. As a nationally recognized expert in the field, Jason is a trusted source of information on the latest race and labor relations news for media outlets, including The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and Fox News Radio. He provides valuable insights into breaking stories such as the George Floyd moment, racial protests, and diversity issues in the workplace. And that's really just scratching the surface of like your professional background and currently what you're working on. But I'm going to pause there. Anything you would like to highlight, by way of your background or personal contacts,

• 2:06Speaker 00

  before we dive on into the conversation?

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no worries, man. So I'm very Very proud to say this that for literally since twenty twenty four, my company, we're consulting from the top five percent of labor and employee relations consultants in the country. Um, we do, we just expanded into Dubai. Um, and prayers go out to what's going on in Dubai as well as what's going on really around the world. Um, but man, we've been able to do some really big things and it's uh exciting times. Exciting times to be in the world of labor, labor and employee relations.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Exciting times, um, challenging times, complicated times. Uh, I think, uh, the world is a bit of a mess. I, I think it's fair to say. Uh, cer- certainly messy, certainly messy, right? Uh, certainly complicated. Um, and, and, and yeah, as you indicated, like it's, it's not just a domestic issue, right? It's not just in the U S. This is a global phenomenon. Uh, I think all throughout the world, uh, uh, people, governments, organizations are grappling with these sorts of issues. Trying to figure out, you know, how to better navigate them. And, uh, and, and, and I would like to remind people, this is from multiple layers. Like there's the legal component, like legal compliance stuff, right? And that's really important. You need to maintain legal compliance.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  But there's, there's more than that. Like there's the legal client stuff, but there's also just like being good stewards in the workplace. Like, like treating your employees well. There's the, there's the business case around that. There's the human case around that. And there's the kind of the moral and ethical, um, components of just like, what does it mean to, to, uh, to be good moral stewards in the workplace and, and, uh, to treat human beings with dignity and respect, right? Um, and all of these things, uh, I mean, maybe it sounds simple and you're like, oh, of course we want to treat everyone with dignity and respect. And we want everyone to feel needed, wanted, valued in, in that they have opportunities to contribute in meaningful ways in the workplace each and every day. Like that sounds obvious and that sounds easy, yet it doesn't always show up easy, you know?

• 4:03Speaker 00

  And, and we often have tensions in how all that shows up. Uh, and that's where folks like you come in and you're able to help us navigate that when it comes to various laws and policies, practices and procedures within the workplace. Uh, hopefully we can do it in a way, um, that is genuine and authentic and a way. That also helps us navigate sometimes sticky legal places and ultimately helps treat people well, you know, in the process.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I think, you know, you, you, uh, you said some really, really, you made some really salient points. I think that ultimately what we're finding today, you know, we, we live in this day and age in which technology drives everything. And we're so interconnected. I mean, you're in Salt Lake City, you know, I'm in, uh, North Carolina. We're having this conversation and this was the thing of science fiction movies sixty years ago, right?

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yet in this day and age of interconnectedness, we are so disconnected. And the challenge is that we have workspaces that are made up of human beings. Human beings and every single human being has their own story. But it used to be my story was, you know, internally driven by the environment that I grew up in. My neighborhood, my suburb, my hood, whatever the case might be. My parents, whatever, you know, whatever stories were told to me as a child. Whatever stories are constantly being told to me as an adult. These days, we have this world of interconnectedness from a global perspective. So that what happens, we talked about Dubai, what happens in Dubai directly impacts what happens to you in Utah. Directly impacts what happens in Miami, North Carolina.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  We have the world of work in which we are seeing automation moving at, you know, at, at the, at the speed of thought, at the speed of lights. The point where workers who were really good, really comfortable, really felt like there's no way the organization could replace me. Because my subject matter expertise is so strong, they need me. Are now being replaced by robots, are now being replaced by artificial intelligence, are now being replaced by the latest greatest gizmos. And you're finding that so many of those employees are now coming back into the world. Asking, all right, if my skill set is not necessary today, am I going to be necessary, right? And how do I level? So I'm just seeing all of these fundamental changes that are happening. And as an employee and labor relations consultant, it's my challenge to make sure that organizations stay healthy, that employees stay healthy.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And that organizations remember they really still need human beings.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Yes, organizations run on humans.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yes.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Creativity, innovation happens via humans. Customer service, customer loyalty, which drives revenue, that happens via humans, right? Like, so all these tools, all these tools can help us with efficiencies and it can help us be more productive. It can even enhance and augment maybe our creativity and allow us to speed up our innovation cycles and things like that. But ultimately, it really are the humans within the organizations that aren't going to allow us to do these things. And so, you know, with all of the pundits, you know, talking about AI and job displacement and all of these different things, you know,

• 7:05Speaker 00

  like, you know, you have the spectrum, like you have all the Chicken Littles, like the sky is falling and every, you know, total dystopian kind of prognostications happening, you know, which I think is a little bit silly. You have that on one extreme, you have other kind of utopian kind of extremes being proposed out there too. The reality is it's most likely going to fall somewhere in between. And really, we just need to better learn how to adapt to how to use these tools and not throw people under the bus in the process. You know, I'm trying to remember, was it Block? Was it Block that just announced 50% layoffs?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, 40% layoffs.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  40% layoffs. You know, I don't know all the details behind that decision, right? And none of us do, in terms of, you know, all the reasons that went behind that. But, you know, I do have questions and I do have suspicions around like what might have been driving that. And I just, you know, I can't help but think, is that a little hasty, you know? Given that we haven't been able to see the full realization of productivity gains from AI and companies are laying off lots and lots of folks, you know, or the promise of these AI productivity gains. And we still need humans, like we just, we fundamentally need humans in order to not only leverage the full potential of AI augmentation,

• 8:23Speaker 00

  but also just fundamentally, you know, to do right by people, you know, like in society. You know, I think there's those bigger questions as well. So, you know, when I saw that news, I'm just like, okay, like. I think there's some really important questions that we need to be asking and we need to be exploring. From an organizational level, also from societal level, you know, that may be bigger than, you know, what this conversation is all about today. But, but it does, it does influence the kind of stuff we're talking about, right? And ultimately, it, it, it impacts, you know, it, it, it, it certainly influences the fears that the average employee has, right, in the average organization.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  So you go into any organization today and you talk to the average employee who just read the news about this company, you know, X Y Z company laying off all these people because of A I. And there's no wonder, you know, that, that we have this anxiety around displacement. And so what are organizations doing to, to reassure people or, and to, to help people feel that they matter and, and helping them to know how they can contribute in meaningful ways. You know, what, what are organizations doing, you know, to reinforce that right now? I think that's a really important question in addition to, you know, other kind of traditional E O and D E I and compliance types of conversations that might be happening in space as well.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  You know, essentially, because when you brought up Block, and I think that's Block is owned by, was it Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, which is now X. You know, what's fascinating is that we're talking about, right? He makes this enough, or, you know, find out that Block lays, laying off forty percent with, I think, additional twenty percent coming, right, in terms of layoffs. And it makes, it makes the national, international news. Well, that's a big deal, especially, and I don't know if Block is publicly traded, but I do know it has shareholders, right? So that's a really big deal because now we're starting to make money because the, the, the revenue is going up, right? The visibility around the company is going up. And I generally say this because we deal with a ton of companies in terms of my work.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  We deal with a ton of companies that are going through or gone through layoffs. And one of the things that you can honestly see happen is you see a number of companies. I'm going to use Google as an example because Google is one of the big dogs, right? Google was laying people off, Microsoft laid people off, and they didn't really have to. They could still afford to keep those employees, but they decided to do it for a couple of reasons. One, they felt like they were done in season plays. So let's get rid of folks, especially folks that we had hired over the course of COVID, right? Another thing is that the market rewards layoffs. So it's one of those things that as we hear more and more employers, because I'll give you an example. One of my clients, um, he comes to me, I'm gonna say this about maybe a year and a half ago,

• 11:04Speaker 01

  and said, Jason, within the next five years, you and I are gonna need to sit down and start talking about what is the fundamental plan for our organization? Because with the way AI is coming in, with the way automation is already here, I think we're going to have to lay off maybe about twenty percent of our staff in the next five years. Only for him to call me three months ago and legitimately say, our five-year plan, I need you to come in tonight because, you know, this AI thing is moving faster than we thought. Instead of twenty people, twenty percent of the people, we're gonna end up laying off forty percent. And I'm gonna need your help, not only communicating that to the staff, but also communicating that to my sister-in-law, to my brother-in-law, to my nephew, because these are people that work for his organization, right?

• 11:45Speaker 01

  That was, I'm very uncomfortable, but these are the types of conversations that are happening around the country. And I think that, you know, what I generally tell employers, especially when you're talking about the whole world of AI, be mindful that you're not squirrel chasing the like, because how many organizations have adapted AI? How many organizations have adapted automation? Because they are trying to keep up with the competitors. They're trying to keep up with the field, or maybe they watch CNBC, maybe they watch Fox. And, you know, Fox Business News, and they happen to hear, you know, the latest greatest company has adapted the latest greatest technology. Therefore, they think they have to do that for themselves. Here's what is happening, though, from an employer perspective. And I pause because I hate making this statement, but I'm gonna make this statement because I have to say this as objectively as I possibly can. Employers are not really worried about laying off employees these days, and here's why.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  They're not worried about laying off employees for automation, because if the automation doesn't work, they know that it's a very good chance that those employees are still going to be in the market. And it's not like I have to go back and rehire them for, you know, thirty or forty thousand dollars more than what they were being paid before. I can actually offer them the same jobs, same employee package, same benefits package, same salary package. And they're probably gonna take it because the market is not hot right now. So it's one One of those things, especially as you talked about the humanity behind all things that we do in organizations in corporate America, not for profits, whatever the case might be. I really wish that organizations, and I really, really say this to my clients and I'll say this to anybody and everybody's listening. Understand that the person that you lay off tomorrow might be you, or today it might be you tomorrow.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  So how you want to be treated, please treat that person or those persons with the same type of respect that you want to get tomorrow.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. I, I think that is a very wise, a very wise statement. There, there's broader macro kind of implications for all of this too. We, if everyone starts laying off forty percent, you know, of employees, what does that mean for um consumer demand around the products and services? You know, that every company is providing, you know, all of a sudden that gets depressed and all of a sudden, I don't know, there's all sorts of implications economically, you know, for, for the country overall.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, can I say something to that though?

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Here's part of the challenge, we're to blame. And when I say we're to blame, I'm not talking, you know, HR professionals and employee relations professional. I'm talking about consumer to consumer. We're to blame because we want these things faster and faster and faster and faster. And if the human being can't get me my quilt for my bed, if the human being can't get me my, you know, I'm a big pro wrestling fan, so my WWE title belt. You know, and AI can get it there faster, I want AI to do it. So it's one of those things, we can put the blame and we can put the onus on corporations, but corporations are only doing what the market demands. And we are the market and we're driving this need in this push for this kind of efficiency that oftentimes eclipses what human beings are capable of doing.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's almost, we've created like this downward spiral, right?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Something's gonna, something's gonna have to give. Um, so, and that gets to broader kind of societal public policy, you know, kind of conversations. And we'll, we'll see, like, there's, there's a lot that's gonna have to happen and change, I think, in the coming years. Uh, if we're gonna come out of this, you know, in a more positive way, there's, there's.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  There's different lanes we could go in, in this whole like AI automation, you know, world. Uh, and I'm, I'm a believer that we'll get it figured out and that we're not gonna go slip into some total dystopian type of future. Um, but there, there are gonna be growing pains along the way. And it is going to be challenging. So to your point, like, let's just remember the humanity around this. And like, if I'm an executive, uh, all the way down through middle management or whatever, and I'm, I can just remember like, yeah, I could be the next one. I could be the next one that's laid off. Um, just remember that and just remember, you know, to not play fast and loose with the lives of my people. Um, you know, and, and just, you know, you, to your point, absolutely. It's a, it's a soft labor market. Like if, if, you know, very much in the minds of executives, I can lay these people off.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  I can probably hire them right back when I need them, if, if and when I need them. Um.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  That very well may be true, but man, that hurts a lot of people in the meantime. And that also erodes a lot of trust, that erodes a lot of, um, commitment from people who stay behind at your organization. That has a lot of other impacts on the organization. So there's all these other factors that go into it. And I, and I know, like you said, the market really rewards layoffs. Like when we talk about the short termism in the market and we talk about quarterly earnings reports and shareholders and all of that. One hundred percent, it absolutely rewards layoffs. Like, that's a really good signal to shareholders into markets. Um, but, but we, we can't just look at the short term. Like we have to look a little bit longer term and we have to look at other impacts.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Um, so, you know, let's, but let's not allow that, all those, all that other stuff to be lost, you know, as we're considering all these things. Um, I know at the time, and I'm going to have to let you go here in a few minutes, but before we wrap up, a- any other aspects of all of this, kind of this, this future of work, this modern world of work as we move into the future of work, that, that organizations and leaders should be thinking about as they're trying to navigate employee relations that you see as really kind of a hot topic.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely. The biggest thing that I say to employees, but I also say to employers is upskill, upskill, upskill. Ask yourself, if I'm an employee, are the, the skillsets that I bring to the table today, are they going to be valuable tomorrow? But also from employer's standpoint, if you put all of your bet on AI being the future of work, you better make sure you're right, because if you're not, you're going to have a bunch of employees that you let go or employees that you kept on that you completely disregarded, who now all of a sudden, their skills are not at the level that you're going to need them to be at in order to survive. Coming tomorrow. So it's one of those things that be careful that even if you have your present and your future set on AI,

• 17:21Speaker 01

  your present and future set on automation, be mindful that you're also preparing the employees that you hope to be able to keep for what might come tomorrow.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Very well said. Jason, this has just been a great conversation. Again, unfortunately, I know the time I need to let you get on with your busy day, but as we close, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they connected you, find out more about your work and team. And then any final word that you may have for today?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely. If you're ever in need of an employee and labor relations consultant, especially if you're going through some type of union organizing drive and you're hoping to remain union free, give us a call. In addition, if you have any kind of employee relations challenges, you can always find us at hire gci.com. I'm very, very active on LinkedIn, so please connect with me and anything we can do to help will definitely be there. And I think the biggest thing is this, remember, people will work for money, but they will die for respect and they will die for recognition. But how you want to be recognized might be different than how the next person wants to be recognized. And how you want to be respected might be different than the next person wants to be respected. So take the time to get to know people's story. Thanks so much for having me on. It's such a pleasure.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Great closing comments. I absolutely agree. Thank you, Jason. It's been a real pleasure. I urge the audience to reach out, connect and find out more about what Jason can do for you. As always, I hope everyone can stay up being safe. They can find meaning in your perception every day.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.