The Future of Leadership Development, with Robert Hargrove

In this podcast episode, Dr. Jonathan H. Westover talks with Robert Hargrove the future of leadership development. Robert Hargrove is a globally recognized authority on leadership and coaching. As the founder of Masterful Coaching, he has dedicated his career to helping leaders unlock their full potential and achieve greatness. His innovative approach to coaching has made a lasting impact on the world of leadership development. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Robert Hargrove, welcome to the conversation.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Happy to be here, John.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  It's a real pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Boston. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today, we're going to be talking about the future of leadership development. This is a really interesting topic to me. I've been in the leadership development space now for going on 25 years, and it's a fascinating space. I love it. I think it's shifted and changed a lot over that time period. You've probably been in the space a bit longer than I have. And so, we've seen a lot of ebbs and flows, and a lot of changes over that time period. But even now, like especially over the last five years or so, there's been even more shifts. And now, we're talking disruptive technologies, AI, you know, just distributed teams, and all sorts of adjustments around hybrid and remote teams and all that

• 1:21Speaker 00

  kind of stuff. And so, it just fundamentally is changing the nature of work. And that means leadership development is changing as well. So, we're going to dive into this topic and really just explore what does it mean for the future of leadership development. As we get started, I wanted to share Robert's bio with everybody. Robert Hargrove is a globally recognized authority on leadership coaching. As a founder of Masterful Coaching, he has dedicated his career to helping leaders unlock their full potential and achieve greatness. His innovative approach to coaching has made a lasting impact on the world of leadership development. And I could share so much, Robert, about your background. You've accomplished so many great things. And I'm going to pause. Anything you would like to highlight before we dive on into the conversation?

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Particularly. You said you've been working on this for 25 years. I've probably been working on it for 40 years. So, I don't think I figured out all the answers.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Well, well, there one thing's for sure. I don't think it's something that is ever like we ever completely figure out. Uh, one thing I really like about this space too is like, I think there are leadership fundamentals. I think there are there are grounding principles and foundational principles. I also don't think leadership is like rocket science. I don't think it's like unobtainable. I don't think it's beyond our reach.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  That's why I said not particularly.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's like rocket science. I don't think it's something, you know, that that uh is so complicated that the average person can't figure out how to be a more uh successful leader. I think it is within everyone's reach to learn, grow into uh themselves, how they can be better leaders. But it is hard. It's really hard because leadership, good leadership, requires consistency. It requires commitment to foundational principles. Um, and life is hard, like life is rough. We, we get things thrown at us constantly. Work is tough. Um, organizations are messy. People are messy. Teams are messy. And because of all of that, uh, we get thrown off our game and we start running around, you know, putting out fires and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  And, and instead of like staying true to the principles, the foundations, uh, we, we get easily distracted and we start to do all these other things and we don't stay true to those principles. Um, and, and I think that's even true now as we start to see these shifts uh that I mentioned in the introduction. Yeah. So, so, so as we start, uh, maybe, you know, over your four decades of, of, of career, tell us kind of your view on where you've seen the field go during that time? And really what you see as some of those foundational components to strong, successful leadership?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Uh, when I started out, actually, in my consulting career, leadership was not even a word that was used in companies. It was, the, the word was, was management. Leadership didn't become used until uh relatively recently. Uh, in, in Europe, they didn't even use the word management. They used the word control. Like it, it, uh, my job is to control the organization. But, um, let's go to a deeper place. I was thinking before we get on this podcast, what do I have to say about this topic? Where does leadership come from? And, uh, I think if you want to become a leader, the best place to look is within yourself. The first move is within yourself.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Because I believe that greatness is in our DNA code. We were all born to be great. Nobody wakes up in the morning and say, I want to be mediocre. And there's kind of like a still small voice within each of us. That says, I want to make a difference. I want to make an impact. I want to do something to be effective, not just to make a living. But what happens with a lot of us, we lose, we tune out that voice. We listen to other voices that tell us to be realistic, to be practical, to do something to make a living.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Not something that we can joyfully express our unique qualities of excellence. And we lose touch with that voice. And so the beginning point of all leadership is to listen, is the first move is within. To recognize greatness is in your DNA code. And to turn up the volume on that voice that says, I want to make a difference. I want to have an impact. I want to be effective. Then I can go to a second step, which if we get to the next pause here.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really like that. I do think we tend to get distracted by just all the noise around us in society. Sometimes that's the voices in our heads. Sometimes that's the expectations, you know, just the social norms and expectations around us. Or how those mix together, right? And ultimately, whatever the cause, we tend to, yeah, we just tend to lose focus. We tend to forget, you know, like why we're doing what we're doing. You know, most people want to do right by others. You know, there are narcissists out there. There are psychopaths out there. There are people that like genuinely, you know, aren't great people. But most people, you know, are good people and they want to do well.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  But we all have baggage and we all have, you know, hard things in our lives and we all get distracted. And so sometimes we don't, we aren't our best. And sometimes we don't do right by others. It's not usually malicious. It's just not our best selves all the time. But if we can like re-center ourselves and kind of come back. Back to true north and come back to like our our true values around what we want to be and our meaning and our purpose. And and try to have that play out and how we interact with other people and interact with our work. Um, you know, the sky's really the limit in what we can accomplish. And, you know, I I'm a believer in trying to do work, you know, trying to seek a career around, you know, what we're good at and what we love. And and what has value and meaning and purpose to us.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  But I'm also, you know, a realist and I understand that not everyone has privilege, you know, to be able to do things that are necessarily things that they love. And some people have to, you know, people, people have to do all sorts of different types of work for all different sorts of reasons. And sometimes maybe they're going to do a job that isn't their favorite type of thing. And maybe they're going to have to do something that's kind of a grind and something that, you know, it, you know, they're they're just getting the paycheck because they have to support their family. And I get that and there's honor in doing any kind of work if if you're doing it to to, you know, support your loved ones. Um, but I also believe that any kind of work can can be meaningful. Any kind of work can drive um meaning and purpose and value depending on how you approach it.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Like your mental state and your your um your mindset around it and how you approach it, especially when you're leading people. If you're leading people, you know, from the the kind of lowest level supervisor through any managerial level all the way up through senior leaders and executives. If you're leading people and I don't care if it's like on a farm or in a factory or, you know, in an office setting or wherever. If you're leading people, that is a meaningful type of work because you're dealing with humans and humans matter. And and humans have uh lives and they have families and they have, you know, the what they're doing with their job has wider sweeping impacts. And so what you're doing with them really matters and you can derive a lot of meaning and purpose from that.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  And so anyways, I just want to reiterate, everything you were saying, I think, really is important for us to remember. Even if, you know, perhaps we're in a job we don't love. Maybe maybe there's stuff that, you know, we would prefer to be in a different career or whatever. And for whatever reason, you know, our our circumstances don't allow for that right now. That's okay, because we we still can, you know, derive meaning and purpose and and value via our mindset and and how we interact with those around us. And I think that's uh something really important for us to always remember.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  That's true. Um, and I was thinking about leadership today. I was saying, where does leadership come from? And I think it comes from what I call, and I'm going to go to a very sort of root cause, what I call ennobling ideals and empowering values. And when I, I, I've spent most of my life as a leader in one form or another, as a CEO, founder, masterful coach, mentor, thought leader. But leadership started for me when I was pretty young. And I listened to John F. Kennedy. I'm, I'm from Boston. You may hear my Boston accent. I have a Harvard cap on just because I don't want people to see my hair receding.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  But it started for me when I listened to the inaugural address of President John F. Kennedy, and he said, not, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And I'm not saying this in a democratic or Republican context, because I know you're from Utah, but he said in that speech, the torch has been passed to a new generation of leaders born of freedom. And when he said that, I felt as if he were speaking to me and that I had, I had to pick up the torch and carry it on and do something with my life that really made a difference. And I, I want to go back to something that you were saying, because this was in sharp contrast to the, to the household where I grew up.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  My father was like a traveling salesman and he would come home late and my mother would say, wherever you've been. And he would say, woman, I'm trying to earn a living. I, I heard that in my head like 10,000 times. I'm trying to earn a living, trying to make a living, trying to make a living. Well, I heard John F. Kennedy speak that day, and I could use many other examples. I realized, I distinguished for myself, there's a difference between living your life so to, so as to make a living and living your life so as to make a difference. Uh, between, there's a difference between picking up the court, the picking up the torch

• 11:05Speaker 01

  and try to uh do something that has an impact that's effective and um picking up a sample value, if you will, and try to make a sale. And so my life has been on that course, but I think everyone listening to this probably has a hero. Mine was John F. Kennedy. Yours might be Ronald Reagan or Nelson Mandela or Winston Churchill or or uh whoever. Uh, but I, I think it's, it's so leadership comes from going within, listening to the voice inside of your head that says make a difference, make an impact, be effective. It has a lot to do with finding a hero that you can emulate, someone you can really admire and respect who is a model of leadership. And uh it then, then involves

• 11:47Speaker 01

  finding out uh where, what, what field you want to play. We need leadership, not just in business and politics, but in every institution and in every field. I hope I haven't gone on too much. I, I warmed to my subject matter and can't be stopped.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  No, I think you're right. Having good role models is really helpful, um especially when we find ourselves kind, when, when we find ourselves in situations of dilemma, um when we have conflicting, when we have uh conflicting values, when we have um, when we have those tensions in place. Like it's easy to make decisions when it's a good versus a bad, right? Or, you know, when, when there's sharp contrast between, you know, what we think right and wrong is, that's, that's an easy decision to make. But when we have, you know, two bads that we have to choose between, or we have two goods to choose between, or, you know, whatever, like tho- those are the situations where it's, it's harder, right? To figure out what you want to do. And you know that no matter what you choose, someone's going to be

• 12:42Speaker 00

  harmed in some way by it. Uh, that's a really tough decision to make. And, and, and sometimes it's as much about the process you go through in your decision making and, and how you communicate and how you um, and how you support those that you're working with in the aftermath of the, the decision. Sometimes it's as much that as it is the decision that is made. Um, and so having people you can look to uh through those hard decisions in, in their example can be really, really powerful. Um, you know, I love A wide variety of people and and the examples that they provide. I I Nelson Mandela, like you said, that's a great example of someone um you know with vision, perseverance, uh you know clarity of of of values of this.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Um fictional characters like uh Ted Lasso, I you know, I I just find someone like him uh in a fictional sense to be uh really inspiring. Uh and we could list so many different others, other characters or or individuals.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Since you're many people from Utah that I know are CEOs love Ronald Reagan the way I love uh John F. Kennedy. You might be a Ronald Reagan fan, so let's bring him into the panoply of stars. Uh but.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Uh sure, I I mean, I'm I'm not a Republican, but uh but sure, I mean, many people revere uh various political leaders, um many, you know, there's all sorts of folks that people.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  That's a great, that's a great word for it, revere them. Uh Adam Grant talks about having a network of uh coaches or mentors or role models. I really like that as opposed you're bringing this out as opposed to having just one person because different different persons will give you a different answer in different situations or appropriate for different situations.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I and I think it's just really helpful to have, um you know, sometimes people talk about having their personal board of directors or their personal advisory board. And a lot of times that people, close friends, family members, um uh professional um colleagues that you can lean on and and get counsel from during difficult times. Uh and I and I think that's super powerful and super helpful, but I think it's also uh valuable to have kind of your personal advisory board of of those you revere and aspire to like.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  That's great. I I love that idea. I love that. A personal advisory advisory board of people who represent uh great leadership to you or or great humanness or whatever it is you want. That's it. Because di- different people you look to in different situations, someone making a tough decision, someone dealing with adversity, someone having a big vision. Uh that's a good, it's a very good idea.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  And and I I teased at the beginning, you know, like the leadership development is shifting, you know, like there are foundational pieces, but we live in a world of. AI, we live in disruptive workplaces and shifting work design and all that kind of stuff. With with this advisory board kind of thought, you know, I I've tried to have my own professional kind of personal advisory board or advisory council. But with with AI, you know, one thing I tried, I've I've seen other people try it. That's where I got the idea. You know, I I put into Claude, one of the the AIs, you know, I created my own, my own advisory board of like great leaders. You know, so so you can you can put in the personas of like these these great people in history, you know,

• 15:56Speaker 00

  and like who they were and what they did and like the types of things they faced. And then, once you have their personas in there, and then you can and then you can give your problem, your challenge. You can say, how how would these different people have faced this kind of dilemma?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And what kind of advice? Yeah, what would Martin Luther King do?

• 16:13Speaker 00

  What kind of advice might they give in this kind of a situation? And obviously, it's it's it you take it with a grain of salt. It's it's AI output, but like you can get some.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  I think Claude's output is very, i- i- is better than most.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Leadership development gurus, business McKinsey consultants and others. I I think that's a fabulous idea. Does Claude remember, when you go to ask a question, does he remember your list?

• 16:39Speaker 00

  I I would go back and prompt it again, you know. Yeah, but but it's just an interest. These are types of things that you can do, you know, now that maybe.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  It's an interesting point, because you can get leadership development advice from Claude or ChatGPT or Gemini in twenty four seven. In ten seconds that you used to have to go to take a three day leadership program for with leadership program. In some cabin in the woods someplace. So that's very interesting.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Anyways, it kind of democratizes leadership development, right?

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  You still need to know kind of how to how to prompt it. You need to know how to utilize it, how to debrief it, how to incorporate it, how to reflect on it. Like, there's still, there's definitely still a role for leadership development, folks and trainers and and all of that. Because there's a lot of skill that goes into all these different pieces, but but it does democratize it.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  I think you're you're not doing justice to your point. I think, in fact.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  That that AI is going to totally disrupt the field of leadership development and and most, I would say the vast majority of leadership development people, business consultants, trainers will be will will will not have a job, except for the very, very best and the most sincere and most talented.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, the top and most elite.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  I think the main point I think the point we want to bring out here is we want to encourage everyone listening to use AI as a leadership development coach and mentor, much the way that you suggested.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just think there's lots of potential there, lots of opportunity there. Robert, this has just been a great conversation. We've only scratched the surface here, but there's lots of lots of things to consider as we move into the future of work. As we wrap things up for today, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they connect with you, find out more about your work, and then give us the final word for today.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I guess I'm trying to make three points. One is greatness is in your DNA code. Listen to the voice inside you that says, make a difference, make an impact, be effective. To find your hero, a great leader in in history or in business or politics that you can emulate, and do what John was talking about, create your own personal board of directors or kitchen cabinet, might even be a better word. There was a third point I wanted to make if we had time, which was all great leaders wind up with an impossible goal and an impossible deadline. John F. Kennedy said, man on the moon by the end of the decade. Challenge yourself to have an impossible goal and an impossible deadline, and you'll

• 19:18Speaker 01

  discover that that becomes a crucible experience that helps transform you into a leader. As far as my own, if you want to get in touch with me, my company is called Masterful Coaching. Right now, I'm working on something close to what you were talking about. It's called Masterful Coaching AI. It's kind of like a chat GPT or Claude for CEOs, founders, and top team members. So and people are going to be able to get very high value masterful coaching for.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  For pennies, basically, it's, it's, it's, my goal is to disrupt the $300 billion leadership development, business consulting and training industry. So if interested in any of that, get in touch with us, get in touch with me on LinkedIn, Robert Hargrove or our website, masterfulcoaching.com.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  I love it. I love it. Thank you much, Robert. It's been a real pleasure. Encourage the audience to reach out, get connected, find out more about what Robert can do for you. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe, taking my meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great day.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.