ON GRIEF… With Mo Gawdat and Bonnie Tyler

Welcome to the newest evolution of How to Fail! Each week, I’ll be diving into the archives to spotlight key themes that have come up throughout my conversations with How to Fail guests. I’ll be sharing bite-sized takeaways every Monday to support, inspire and help with whatever you might be going through. This week’s theme is a big one: we’re talking all about grief. First, you’ll hear a moving excerpt from my 2019 conversation with Mo Gawdat, who offered deeply validating and helpful advice for anyone navigating the loss of a loved one. Then, we revisit a 2024 episode with Bonnie Tyler, who talks about losing her beloved mother.. I hope this episode brings comfort, clarity and a little light to those who need it most. Listen to Mo Gawdat’s full episode of How to Fail here: https://link.chtbl.com/fnA5IzTi Listen to Bonnie Tyler’s full episode of How to Fail here: https://link.chtbl.com/hR7kycoN 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Elizabeth’s upcoming one-off show at Cadogan Hall on 21 Sep for her new novel One of Us: ⁠https://www.fane.co.uk/elizabeth-day Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 2:04Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to your now twice weekly dose of How to Fail. Don't say I never spoil you, you're welcome. With a brilliant back catalogue and years' worth of content and conversations, I wanted to revisit some of the most meaningful and powerful conversations. I know that these episodes have resonated with you because I hear from you all of the time about how certain insights or moments have really shaped how you see life and have made you feel less alone. And it felt to me that maybe the best way of doing this was by theming the episodes and exploring different topics. So this week, we're exploring a big one. We're exploring grief.

• 2:44Elizabeth Day?

  First, we hear from one of our favourite guests of all time, the incredible Mogadat, who talks in the most inspiring way about how he managed to reframe his mindset around his son Ali's death. Secondly, Bonnie Tyler speaks about her mum losing her daughter, Bonnie's sister. These stories are raw, moving, unflinching, and in their own ways beautifully uplifting. I hope they resonate with you as much as they did and do with me.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Now, here's the trick. If you had a friend, I apologise if anyone listening to us is called Becky, I call my brain Becky, okay? If you have a friend in school Becky who was so annoying, she showed up every seven minutes, told you awful things about yourself, made you feel horrible, and then left with no positive impact whatsoever on your life. Would you wake up the next morning, go to school and say, "I miss Becky"? Would you listen to Becky when she speaks? What would you do with Becky when she starts to do that? You'll say, "No Becky, please don't do this to me." If Becky starts to tell you weird lies, you'll say, "Becky, do you have any evidence to back this up?", right? If Becky doesn't... Becky is a third party, huh? You would say, Becky, this is crap.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  You don't have the right to waste my life on crap. And that's exactly what our brains do. I stop in the middle of a conversation. I say to myself, Becky, what did you just say? Now, here's the interesting thing. It's not you talking to you. It's a biological organ talking to you. As horrible as that sounds, it's a three-pound lump of meat. Okay? The other interesting side of this is the following. If I give you a Ferrari. Ferraris are horrible cars. If I give you a really good car, okay? And, you know, I tell you to go around the track with that car and you don't know how to drive, you're gonna kill yourself and everyone else. Understand how that brain works. Now, we think there is one type of thought. As a matter of fact, there are three types of thought. The type of thought that makes us unhappy is incessant thinking.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Incessant thinking is basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. That incessant thinking doesn't lead to anything, doesn't change anything in the real world. It happens in the midline areas of your brain. There are two other types of thoughts that are useful. One of them is insightful thinking and the other is experiential thinking. Insightful thinking is when you solve a problem. Experiential thinking is when you observe the world as it is. Okay? Those happen mostly on the right-hand side of the brain, some in the prefrontal cortex, some in the insula and so on. Those kinds of thoughts are the thoughts you should allow your brain to give you. And by the way, that's the attitude we use at work. If someone walks into my office and complains, I don't let them complain incessantly.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Midway, I say, is there any information we're missing about this? Should we look at this differently? This is insightful thinking, okay? And experiential thinking. This is basically looking at the world as it is. Then I ask, what can we do about it? And that's exactly what I do with my brain. Ali, my son, leaves our world. Okay? People think that I'm not given a choice. I am given two choices. One of them is to cry for the rest of my life. And then 27 years later, when I'm on my deathbed, Ali will still not be there. Is that a wise choice? The other is to do something about it. That doesn't bring him back, huh? Nothing's gonna bring him back. It's the truth. He left, right? But what I can do is I at least can make my life a little better

• 6:20Speaker 01

  and his life and the life of a billion people a little better than the day he left. Isn't that a better way of doing it? Now, of course, I feel pain. I miss him tremendously. But pain doesn't dictate how my brain tortures me. Pain is different than suffering. Pain is I remember him, I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way. Okay, I allow my brain only two types of thought. One is useful thinking and the other is joyful thinking. Anything else, I say, Becky, stop, behave. Useful thinking. If my brain tells me you should have driven him to another hospital,

• 7:03Speaker 01

  I basically say to my brain, "I cannot do this right now. Do you have something you want to tell me that I can do? I wish I could, but I cannot. Give me a useful thought." So my brain says, "Why don't we write the happiness model we learned with him? Share it with 10 million people was the original target? And make 10 million people remember him and love him and send him a happy wish? That would be a good way to honor him. Great, that's a great idea, brain. Thank you, that's how we should think, right? Or a joyful thought. Until today, I promise you, three to four times a week, I wake up in the morning or I go to bed at night and the only thought that comes to my head is Ali died. He's part of my heart. It's just, I feel that part of me is missing, right?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I answer in a very simple way and I say, "Yes, brain, but Ali also lived." Do you understand that? "Ali died" is a horribly painful thought. "Ali lived" is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought. It's 21 years of joy, of wisdom, of learning, of insightful discoveries, of memories of him taking care of Ayah, taking care of me, taking care of his mother, that I wouldn't replace for anything. Honestly, even if you tell me, "We'll take away your pain for losing your son", I wouldn't say, "No, no, no, hold on. I want him, I want the 21 years. Don't lie to me, brain. Don't lie to me. But think about those.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Because when I say, "Ali lived", I start to get memories that are all happy, all joyful, all things that we did together. That's me being the boss. That's me telling my brain to take charge, so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me. Because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it.

• 8:53Elizabeth Day?

  Mo, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much for expressing that with such eloquence and passion.

• 9:09Elizabeth Day?

  You say you have three sisters and two brothers.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:12Elizabeth Day?

  There was another sister.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 9:15Elizabeth Day?

  Pauline.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, Pauline was stillborn. My mother never, ever got over Pauline dying, you know. She was full term, you know, nine months. I can't, do you know the thing you see? When you're young and you're told that you would have had another sister, but she was stillborn, it doesn't, it doesn't sink in what actually my mother actually must have gone through, carrying a baby for all those nine months and then nothing at the end of it. It must have been traumatic. But she never really showed us her pain, but it must

• 9:58Speaker 02

  have been terrible for her. But she never did get over it, mind. She always, whenever people said, how many children do you have? And she always counted Pauline, you know. And actually, in 2020, my brother, my eldest brother died, Lyn.

• 10:14Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  He was so proud, he was, you know, he was wonderful and he wasn't ready to go. He was enjoying his life, you know, he loved life, he loved his kids, he loved his grandkids. And he just died in his sleep.

• 10:29Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  And now it was awful shock, awful shock.

• 10:34Elizabeth Day?

  Bonnie, I'm so sorry.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Anyway, sorry.

• 10:37Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Oh, well, you know, he had a wonderful life and I know he's in a good place, but it was a terrible shock.

• 10:46Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And so you could relate presumably even more to what your mother must have been through.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  You know, because.

• 10:57Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  At least he's with my mother and father now and Pauline and, you know.

• 11:04Elizabeth Day?

  Will you tell me the story of the Father Christmas napkin?

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 11:08Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, gosh. I'm sorry, I read it and it was so beautiful.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I know, but my mother, she died of Alzheimer's bluster. And, um, uh, shortly before she.

• 11:26Elizabeth Day?

  We don't have to talk about it.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  I I'd be all right now.

• 11:30Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Shortly before she, um, you know, got really bad with Alzheimer's.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  She was at my house and it was near Christmas, I suppose, because I had these placemats on the table that, um. They had like a Father Christmas on them and like a pocket where you put the napkin in. And it was very Christmasy, you know. And she folded it up into a, all all the way into like a little triangle. It was a linen placemat that you put over a placemat, you know. And she folded it up into like little triangular. And she gave it to me in my hand and she said, when I go.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Please, put this in my coffin, right?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  I said, Mom, don't talk like that, you know, you know, I want you to put it in my coffin, she said, because. I want to give Colleen something when I get there, she said, and, oh, God. Anyway, um, so.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  She, I did it, along with us all, putting little things in coffee, you know, and photographs, letters, as you do, you know. But she wanted me to do that, so I did it. And I still got one, you had a tear as well, though. I've still got one, and in my house. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. I'm so sorry. Oh, gosh. Oh, I had the best mother in the world, though. I know we all say we got the best mother, but I did. Yeah. She was an angel.

• 13:32Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.