Jonathan Van Ness - 'I was one wrong thing away from losing everything'

Over on Failing with Friends this week, JVN and I get into relationship therapy and the perfect length of shorts on a man. To hear JVN tackling your failures, join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Jonathan Van Ness, one fifth of Netflix’s hit show Queer Eye, three-times New York Times bestseller, podcaster, business magnate and all-round icon is on the pod this week. JVN joins us to talk about TV show cancellations, almost getting cancelled, business failures and learning that validation is an inside job. Plus: the Queer Eye makeover they still regret. And: what would JVN do to Donald Trump's hair? To check out JVN’s hair products go to: https://www.spacenk.com/uk/brands/j/jvn-hair ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:40 Journey to Fame 02:23 Struggles with Self-Acceptance 06:02 The Floater Story and Podcasting 08:54 Marriage and Personal Growth 10:22 Queer Eye and Cultural Impact 14:01 Challenges in Trump's America 25:09 Navigating Business Challenges 25:15 The Overwhelming Process of Fundraising 25:56 Learning the Business Side 26:14 Facing Bankruptcy and Finding a New Partner 27:25 The Stress of Transition 28:18 Lessons in Business Growth 31:16 Dealing with Media and Public Perception 33:52 Reflections and Moving Forward Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  Hello there. Did you know that you can hear all of the things that my guests might have failed to divulge in the main episode by joining us in our subscriber community, Failing with Friends? It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner. Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there.

• 1:32Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  On all of my body of queer eye, it's the only time where the hero looked worse when I was done. I was like one wrong thing away from like losing everything. I mean, there are times where I'm like snappy and short and I need to work on it. And it's a process that I've been working on for like 37 years.

• 2:16Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today is a shaper of culture, a queer icon, a three times New York Times bestseller, a podcaster, award-winning TV personality, a business magnate who started their own sustainable haircare brand. I'm running out of breath, there are so many achievements. And according to their own website, "an HIV-positive, non-binary truth teller, determined to make this world a better, more equitable, yet funnier place." They are, of course, Jonathan Van Ness, or JVN for those in the know. They grew up in a small town in Illinois, often feeling like an outsider and experiencing bullying for their love of figure skating,

• 2:58Elizabeth Day?

  gymnastics, and their mother's Hermes scarves. Van Ness was the first male cheerleader at their high school, and despite a challenging early adulthood involving drugs and sex addiction, they found their way to fame through hairstyling. Gay of Thrones, their hilarious recaps of Game of Thrones from the styling chair was nominated for an Emmy. But it was their casting in Netflix's Queer Eye that shot them to global fame. In a fractured society, the makeover show opens minds by showing that our similarities are greater than our differences. Today, alongside Queer Eye, Van Ness hosts their podcast Getting Curious

• 3:41Elizabeth Day?

  and is about to head off on a stand-up comedy tour in the US. Despite all their success, Van Ness has been open about their struggles with self-acceptance in the past. In their award-winning 2019 memoir, Over the Top, they wrote, "When you have this much personality, there's a fear lurking just below the surface. If you knew all of me, you wouldn't love me anymore. You would no longer want me as your new best friend." Jonathan Van Ness, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 4:14Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for being here, and I totally want you to be my new best friend.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Ah, well, thank you so much for saying that, honey. I want to be your best friend too.

• 4:22Elizabeth Day?

  It's done. It's a done deal. But I wanted to end on that quote partly because your memoir is so beautifully written, and partly because it spoke to something deep in my soul, that sense that however someone sees you on the outside, you could be feeling totally differently on the inside. How do you feel now in terms of that self-acceptance?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  I feel in a completely different place than when I wrote Over the Top. I think when Over the Top came out, I had equal parts relief and vulnerability hangover, as Brené Brown would say. I did disclose my HIV status in that book, and while I thought I was like really ready to share everything that I shared in the book, I really was like, I just wasn't prepared for the reaction. And I went through something so hard at the beginning of last year, which was this Rolling Stone article that was just like a devastating experience for me. But one thing that that taught me was that my idea of

• 5:27Speaker 01

  self-acceptance, I thought, was self-earned, but really, it was because of the validation of social media, of so many of those achievements that you read in that intro. And my sense of self-acceptance and self-love was so rocked by that experience that, like, such an intense depression, such an intense, just so many experiences that got brought up to the surface that I never kind of saw coming, that it made me rethink so much of my career, so much of how I come across in public. And ultimately, it really did teach me that, like, validation has to come from inside, because if you are relying on it from other people, media, parasocial like

• 6:12Speaker 01

  relationships, it will leave you a hollow shell of yourself.

• 6:16Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, Jonathan, I'm so sorry.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it was so traumatizing.

• 6:19Elizabeth Day?

  It was an article that basically made various allegations about.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Said I was an emotionally abusive monster with rage issues, who was a nightmare to work with in any capacity. And I think the reason that that's coming up for me is because. I knew with Queer Eye, like, and I say in over the top, like, who you see on Queer Eye is who I am. And there's so much more.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  And so I was always scared with Queer Eye, because I was like, I don't know if I can live up to this version of myself all the time. And there are times where I'm like snappy and short and I need to work on it. And it's a process that I've been working on for like thirty seven years. You know, I mean, so I think, and it's like almost the year anniversary of it. And I'm just, there was a time where I like, didn't know what my life would look like. And I feel better than I've felt in such a long time.

• 7:06Elizabeth Day?

  And I can imagine that Queer Eye could have been so crushing to have to live up to when we are multifaceted humans. And we can't be easily pigeonholed or put into a box. There was this thing that I read about you, about your grandfather being called the floater when he played Trivial Pursuit. And how you you apply that term to your own life. Will you tell us that story?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I love that you read that. So my family would always play Trivial Pursuit on like vacation and were a competitive bunch. And my grandfather would just like answer questions for anybody's team. Like, and he would be assigned to a team, but he just didn't care. He was like, if he knew that answer, honey, he was gonna let you know. And I do feel that I picked that trade up because I will just randomly hear a question that wasn't even directed to me. And I so badly want to answer it and just like participate. So I think I have like a floater quality myself.

• 8:00Elizabeth Day?

  And do you think you apply that floater quality to your identity too?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Maybe, I mean, I think, if anything, I think I just like love to learn things. And as long as it's not math, I just like want to learn about that. I think it's really interesting.

• 8:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, hence Getting Curious, your podcast, and you're about to launch Getting Better.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I've been podcasting for such a long time. I think it was like. December of 2015 that I started getting curious.

• 8:29Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, you are an OG.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I took like, I went from December of like 15 to like February of 17, booked Queer Eye. My podcast got canceled the next day. I love this story. Got canceled the next day. And I remember thinking in my head to that, like the president of that network, I was like, big mistake. Huge. Like you work on commission, right? Because you don't even know what mistake you just made, but it was good because I like, so I kind of paused the podcast, went and filmed the first two seasons of Queer Eye. And then when I was done, it was like September of 2017, because it took like four months to film those first two seasons. I was like so excited to get back into the studio and start, because I mean, at that time I was like booking all my own guests, scheduling all my own guests, like it was like me and a sound engineer. So much, it was so much work, but I was so excited to get back to it.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  And then, um, and then I started back, you know, in 2017 and I've been like, I think I did like two, like two episodes a month for a few months, but then I was like every week sometime in the beginning of 2018. So it's been a long time running and it's like, oh my God, let's give this a Queer Eye makeover. Like, let's like switch it up a little bit. So we're changing the name and I'm just going to try to like, work with my neurodivergence and focus, which is not in my neurodivergence's arousal template. You know, I like to like learn about everything different, but we're just going to try to focus a little bit more and still be curious, like curiosity driven, but make it more about like health, mental health,

• 9:55Speaker 01

  culture, society, how to, how to kind of find the parts of ourselves that we need to work on and find the parts of ourselves that we need to love on and ultimately like refine ourselves into like the best version of ourselves.

• 10:09Elizabeth Day?

  Love that. Talking of the best version of ourselves and your renewed feeling of self-acceptance, is that also partly to do with the fact that you've got married?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Um, my husband's so cute. Yeah, we've been, I think I say to him like once a month, then like, can you believe how long we've been married? It's my, my longest relationship ever. And we'll be married for five years this June.

• 10:29Elizabeth Day?

  Congratulations.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's like, it's longer than like an Olympic cycle.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  It's a really long time.

• 10:37Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. And has that helped with your sense of peace?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I think it. I don't know if it's like helped with my sense of peace, but he has helped me be a better person. And I just think like a secure functioning relationship is like, it's a conscious choice. It's not easy, but it is easy. It's I'm non-binary. So it's like hard for me to like exactly pick something. It's a joke, but um, I it's it's easy and it's hard. Like there is an ease to being with him like, and there's also difficulty because relationships like are kind of like a mirror. Like it brings up the things in you that you are like, oh, I don't know if I like that part of me and I need to like

• 11:24Speaker 01

  work on that. But he also has such like intense patience and love and like patience and acceptance. So having that in my life, I do think has brought me a lot of peace.

• 11:37Elizabeth Day?

  I so appreciate your honesty. So that brings us neatly on to Queer Eye. And before we get on to your failures, I just wanted to say thank you for Queer Eye.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 11:46Elizabeth Day?

  It still has the capacity to make me cry every single episode because it's about not only how people feel about themselves, but it's also a challenge to the culture at large, it feels now. In the times that we're living through, it is a show about acceptance and inclusivity. And I just wondered what it means to you.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  It means so much that sometimes I almost feel like I can't fully feel it because I almost don't even trust myself to fully feel it because it would be like too overwhelming because I'm just so honored. The first Queer Eye was a huge deal to me and it like I watched it religiously. I watched it with my mom. I watched it with my grandparents. And I do think that the first Queer Eye had a huge ripple effect in culture that I literally rode on one of those waves. So to get to hopefully magnify that and be a part of of that conversation now is like, I just can't even believe that I got to do

• 12:48Speaker 01

  it. And at the same time, it's kind of concerning being like, uh, politically minded and like being just aware of the world because while representation and and there has been, I think, a lot of self-acceptance and like, I mean, part of my mission personally has been to promote this idea of self-acceptance and like learning to love all of the parts of ourselves. And I think that all of us on the show have had Our own kind of passions and initiatives that we wanted to use our platforms for. But so often I have heard people say like, almost use Queer Eye or use other queer representation as a barometer for like, the health of queer people or like, our

• 13:31Speaker 01

  community at large. And you know, we really clearly can see that that isn't the case. Like, just because there's more queer things on television and more access to queer visibility, it doesn't mean that queer visibility is not important. But I think it's very clear that queer visibility isn't the answer. Because if it was the answer, we wouldn't have Donald Trump in the presidency, we wouldn't have this House and Senate outlaw of trans participation in sports, when we're out here talking about like, 10 trans athletes. And it's not only competitive athletes, it's like, little kids just being able to be included, like, to

• 14:11Speaker 01

  not be bullied in school. And what it mostly is too, it's like, couched in protecting women and fairness in sports, but what it really is, is making sure that we erase trans people from public view. Like, keep it underground, keep it behind closed doors. Like, we don't want that out in public view. I just think it's no coincidence that like, after Roe was overturned in 2022, the anti-trans vitriol like, has risen at the same pace. Because how do you like, divide and conquer? You have to make a bigger threat. And so once like, the ultimate threat was carried out on women in 27 states in the United States, where they no longer have access to reproductive healthcare, it's like, a pretty convenient

• 14:55Speaker 01

  boogie person, you know, to come up with in trans women, or just, you know, trans people. So yeah, so it's a huge honor to be a part of Queer Eye. I love Queer Eye so much. I also want us to be able to have, like, I want politicians and leaders to do a better job of like, Advocating for queer people.

• 15:14Elizabeth Day?

  Final question before we get on to your failures. Do you feel less safe in Donald Trump's America?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. But I also don't feel like, I mean, I felt, I live in Texas and I felt really concerned there for, I mean, I went there for Queer Eye back in season six and then my husband and I decided to stay. Just like slower pace, you drive everywhere, like more affordable. But it's gotten worse. I mean, it's even just in the last four years, like I, like I don't wear heels to dinner there. Like, you know, like it has totally gotten worse.

• 15:42Elizabeth Day?

  Because if you did wear heels to dinner.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I just like, I'm, I'm literally think about where the exits are. Like, I can't run as fast if I'm in a heel.

• 15:53Elizabeth Day?

  That's so sad. And I'm, I'm so sorry that you're going through it and that the community is going through it.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I just feel so bad. It's like our community, but it's also like, there's just so, it's like, it's gun violence. It's like, they're just, just violence, period. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's weird. But I still do love America, but I wish we could get it the fuck together.

• 16:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Maybe you should run for office.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Can you imagine?

• 16:17Elizabeth Day?

  I, I actually can imagine.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I'd rather just be like an ambassador to like a chic country.

• 16:21Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Or even just like any country, really. Like, I don't even have to be, I just, I just think like Ambassador Vanessa would be fun.

• 16:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  It's like a little less pressure, you know? It's also not elected. I don't know if I could go through an election, my rejection sensitivity.

• 16:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Hard.

• 16:35Elizabeth Day?

  I can so see you as an ambassador with the hosting and the chic outfits.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Oh, actually, no, I don't want to. The hosting, I forgot about that. I don't want to have people over to my house. Like, I don't want them using up my nice china. Like, as you get like cute ambassador china, I feel like there's like probably like pretty china at like the embassy.

• 16:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  I don't want these hoes messing up my fucking china.

• 16:55Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialized treatment. For OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable. So you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 17:41Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, no CD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn dot N O C D dot com slash fail. Your first failure, we're talking about TV and the first failure is the Getting Curious TV show being cancelled. Tell us about this.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  So I pitched it like the end of 2019. Netflix was like, we're going to think about it for a while. And then they said, we're going to do it, but we don't know when we're going to do it. And then I was like, that's kind of nice. Like, I'll just keep thinking about like how to adapt it TV, like no pressure, no timeline obsessed. Like, it's like development. Then the pandemic happened and it was like later on in 2020, like Septemberish. And we'd moved to Texas in like March of 2020 and did like four days of our first episode when everything shut down. And so then it was September of that year. And I think, you know, it started to become clear, like you couldn't have five people in a car like anytime soon. So then at that time Netflix was like, okay, we want to go into production on your show now.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  And when I got that call, I had this voice in my head, like my intuition was so clear. And it was like, it was, it's a mistake to do this while Queer Eye is on TV. Like, don't do it now. Because if you're, if this has to compete with Queer Eye, it's like never going to work. And so what I said was, I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. Could we do it like later, like a lot later, like, could we just maybe? And the response was, and not from Netflix, it was from a cacophony of people in my circle. Were like, they're not asking you when you want to do it. It's like now or never. So under pressure, I said, yes.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And it just never felt right. Like, I've never worked harder on anything in my life. I was so scared, because we didn't even have vaccines yet. So much pressure. If I end up on like the six o'clock news and like someone's grandma dies, because I wanted to learn about fucking figure skating, or, you know, or snacks. Like, it just was this immense amount of pressure to like film under. And so the whole creative of the show was originally like a travel show where I was like going to colleges, going into labs and like, and it just got totally, I mean, we got kind of sequestered into like New York City, like we had to be in like, you know, a very small

• 20:09Speaker 01

  area. And so it just ended up being like a completely different vision and a completely different, I'm so proud of what we made and our crew and our showrunner and myself. It's like the first thing that I ever executive produced. And I think to EP your own series, like, I'm so proud of what we got to do. But it wasn't the vision. It felt like just an insect getting like hurled at a windshield. Like, I remember thinking that whole time and saying that whole time, like, as long as we get a season two. Like, I just, then I won't feel like I failed and it'll give me another, like, makes me kind of cry thinking about it. I'll just know that it was like worth it. And then when it got canceled, it

• 20:48Speaker 01

  was just like so brutal. Like, and then realizing that like Netflix's expectations of the show were like, frankly, so unrealistic. Like, they needed my show to be more successful than Queer Eye in order for it to even ever come back. And if I would have known that my show, that was a completely different concept and was seeing me in a completely different way, was up against a show that's had like two decades and millions and millions of dollars in advertising. Given to it, I would have just listened to my intuition. It was so many good learning experiences, but also kind of soul crushing.

• 21:28Elizabeth Day?

  And when you learnt that it was cancelled, I'm very interested in how people learn to deal with rejection, because I often think that rejection takes you back to very, very early trauma.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:41Elizabeth Day?

  Did it remind you of rejections from your childhood?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:45Elizabeth Day?

  Can you talk a bit on that? Because I mentioned it briefly in the introduction, but that feeling of never quite fitting in, quote unquote.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember being in the shower like a couple of days after like the final call and like knowing for sure it wasn't coming back. And I just was so angry. And I was like, I just, I wanted to be mad at my agents. I wanted to be mad at the network. I wanted to be mad. I just wanted to blame something. And I was like, who? And then I remember I was like washing my hair and then I like stopped. And I was like, girl, the only person you have to be disappointed with or upset with is you. Like, your voice, your intuition, like told you clear as day. I heard it crystal clear. Like, and instead of having like faith in my ability or faith that Netflix would come back and that the

• 22:34Speaker 01

  timing would be right eventually, I didn't have the faith or the trust to like, say no and like wait for the right time. I was like, well, I might never get it again. So it came from this like fear based place instead of this like love confidence based place. It came from this like place of force instead of trust. And once I got that message, I was like, oh, I don't need to blame anybody. I don't need to, this isn't really, like, it is kind of a reflection on me, but it also doesn't have to be like a career definer. You got to executive produce something on Netflix. That's major. Like, not very many people get to say that they've done that. And Like, how cool. And I think for me, like, I just, I really do love podcasting.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Like, I love the medium of it. I love the connection of it. I love the frequency of it. I love the community of it. And so my biggest thing was just to, I was like, just happy that I got to keep doing my podcast and that that didn't have to be the end of that road.

• 23:34Elizabeth Day?

  Do you do much parenting of your inner child?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  I try, but sometimes we forget.

• 23:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and sometimes I find it so cringe.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Elizabeth Day?

  But it's so necessary.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:45Elizabeth Day?

  So tell me a bit about childhood, Jonathan, and what they were like.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Basically, like how I am now. But, you know, very like into random things, like figure skating, gymnastics, rocks, very, very ADHD. And I wasn't diagnosed until I was 25, but I can see how in retrospect, like that, like, that ADHD and that neurodivergence, like, really kept me like that. I think a lot of the bullying and a lot of the separation and anxiety, like, you know, stemmed from that. Because my hyper-focus and like, hyperactivity on certain things was like overwhelming and still is.

• 24:29Elizabeth Day?

  I was mildly bullied, I would say, at my first secondary school. And a large part of my drive, still, I think, is trying to prove those people wrong. Do you relate to that?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  No, only because my drive really was like, I never wanted to ask my family for money. That was like, one big drive. And then the other big drive is that I wanted to make the world a better place for queer people.

• 24:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Once I got out of my hometown, that was like, my fuck you to those people. Like, because I was like, I don't have to see you anymore.

• 24:59Elizabeth Day?

  And that idea of not wanting to ask your family for financial help, does that apply to other areas of your life, too? Like, an unwillingness to ask for help?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  It used to a lot more. And I just did my first comedy special. It came out like, a couple of months ago. It was called Fun and Slutty. And I do this bit in there about when I went to rehab and they teach you how to ask for help, because asking for help is such a huge, important part of recovery. And I very iconically, like, they literally had all of us. This should have been one of my fails. They had all of us put on blindfolds and you had to like go to this like rope maze in the middle of this forest and like blindfolded, get yourself out of this rope maze, like holding the ropes, you know? And they were like, you have an hour and then it blows up. But that was like a joke, the blowing up part. But it wasn't funny to me because I was crashing off meth and it was like the second day that I was there. Um, so I was like, oh my God.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  But I was the only person that didn't get out of the rope maze because there actually was no way out. You had to raise your hand and ask for help, but it never occurred to me to do that. So I was literally the only person in the freaking maze when the hour was over. So yes, asking for help did not come naturally to me. I felt really like I need, like, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, like, don't ask for help. But now I think it's, I've learned it really is so important to say like when you don't have it and when you need support and when you need help, um, to varying degrees of success.

• 26:22Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Uh, but yeah, I have gotten a lot better.

• 26:25Elizabeth Day?

  That is such an extraordinary metaphor, that rope maze in the forest.

• 26:32Speaker 02

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• 27:01Speaker 03

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions, but a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person?

• 27:16Speaker 03

  Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 27:20Speaker 05

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen, available now on The Binge.

• 27:31Elizabeth Day?

  Let's move on to your second failure. I'm so glad that you've chosen this one because we don't often get business failures. And I think it's so important to open up the conversation around it. So the second one is learnings about launching and owning a business. Tell us why you chose this one.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh. Well, largely because I'm so proud of of JB and Hair and I'm so proud of our resilience and our ability to bounce back and find a way.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  So yeah, I launched JB and Hair in 2021 with our with this company that doesn't exist anymore. It is like growth at any cost was their kind of mode. So it was like they had really big budgets and it was like grow, grow, grow.

• 28:15Elizabeth Day?

  Like And this is a parent company.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:17Elizabeth Day?

  So I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to this.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah. So it's a parent company. So there's a few ways that you can do it. You can either like go and raise your own money to like, you know, go out and do funding, which would be like, you would make like a pitch deck and have like a plan. And then you would go raise money and then you would like launch your business. But that felt really overwhelming to me and I was like, I don't know how to do that. So I went and found a parent company that you like, they either fund it or they raise the money. So I really wanted to make something that was hair goal oriented versus hair type oriented. So I had like a really clear vision on like certain things that I wanted to do.

• 28:54Elizabeth Day?

  So clever.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And same thing with like my air dry cream. I was like, I wanted to make a curly cream that was multifunctional. Instant recovery serum like, I mean, literally all of the names of our products, like I conceptualized, I named, but I didn't understand about like COGS, like that's cost of goods. I didn't understand about like EBITDA. I didn't understand about like a P and L, like a profit and loss. I didn't understand margins. I didn't understand any of the business side and I didn't want to because I was like, I'm sure someone else will do that. Well, they didn't because they ultimately went bankrupt. And so, you know, and bankruptcy is like a really scary thing. It's like really not a fun thing to go through. I didn't know anything about that, but what I

• 29:37Speaker 01

  and so then going from that to like, you know, you have to find a new partner and there's like IP involved, like the formulas, the, you know, intellectual property, you know, is owned by them, even though I made it.

• 29:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  So, and not only that, I didn't have control over the sale. So

• 29:55Elizabeth Day?

  Nightmare.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Because with bankruptcy, it's like, it's all court, like the court is in charge of the sales. So like, I didn't even know if we would have a parent company. And then all of a sudden, you know, they're like, We'll find a partner for you. Like, your business is successful. Like, don't worry, we'll find a partner. To then, all of a sudden, it's like, we might not find a partner. And time is running out. Like, do you have millions of dollars? And I was like, no, I have ADHD and an impulse spending problem. Like, I didn't save fucking money. Like, are you crazy? And you'd have to, like, show to the court that you can, like, sustain the business. And like, I'd been listening to these people that we would find a new home for months. So it was like, Q3 and 4 of 2023 was like, oh, my god. Like, it

• 30:39Speaker 01

  was so stressful that I grew a second butthole, that I had to do an episode of my podcast about, like, that is how stressed I was. I got an anal fistula.

• 30:47Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Like, literally, never have had more pain.

• 30:51Elizabeth Day?

  The strain.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Blistering, like, I thought I was gonna die. It was so stressful. But we found a new parent company, and they're amazing. And, you know, what my concerns there were, were like, I really don't want our products, like, watered down. I know a lot of times when someone else comes in, like, it does become just different formulas. And so, being a hairdresser, I'm like, I had, like, the quality of our formulas is just like, that's like, what I just lose sleep about at night. But they were really supportive with that. And they were like, we don't want to change what's working. But I think the biggest thing of like, what I learned, is like, when you're starting a business, I thought, I was like, well, I want to have a whole line. Like, I want to have like,

• 31:34Speaker 01

  a complete line. Well, if you start with, like, let's say budgets of like, you know, $5 million, and like, 10 SKUs. In order to be successful and grow, you have to grow.

• 31:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  So that's a lot more pressure when you have $5 million invested in you, than like, let's say if you had raised, you know, 50,000 and done one product with like, three people. And then when you have, you know, a direct-to-consumer business going, then you, you know, like, start small and grow up. Like, it's called bootstrapping. So like, if you have like, 50 grand, and you invest that in your company, once you make that money back, and once you get successful, then you can like, reinvest that money and you grow like this. But if you start...

• 32:20Speaker 01

  With someone else's money and it's like, you know, a really big budget, they're going to want to see returns. And if you don't grow on their pace under that pressure, like, that's not good. And if you don't understand how business works, that's also not good.

• 32:36Elizabeth Day?

  Do you now know your figures?

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I know, like, our margins, I know how much our products cost, I know how much the formulas are. I know how much it costs us to ship a product. I know how much it costs for us to store our products. I know the president of our company, who I love so much, her name is Teresa, and she has the patience and resilience of, like, I don't even know, I don't even know a person to compare it to because it's so otherworldly. But she always jokes with me that it's like the business degree I never asked for. But I think that's like my other big takeaway is like, you can't, if you're going to start a business, you really can't pick and choose what you want to learn about.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Like, you either have to, like, earnestly learn all of it as well as you can, while also not micromanaging. Because you can't be stepping on people's toes and like, getting in the way of things that you don't know anything about. But you do have to be intuitive and ask the right questions and know the right time to ask the right questions and be really patient, but firm at the same time, which is really difficult. And I've made so many mistakes in the process of it, but there was a time like last year when I didn't know about our future, where like, when I'd walk into my bathroom and like, look at my air dry cream on the counter, I would just like, break down. And at the same time, I literally knew, not to bring it back up, but Rolling Stone was coming, like, I, because I knew for months that it was coming.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Like, from November of 2023 until when it came out in March, like, I, like, I mean, my friends, my family, like, were getting calls from their team. And it really makes me sad because I love Rolling Stone and I really like their reporting. And now every time I see their name, I'm like, oh! So my moral of that story is, Don't ever have a bad day around someone who you haven't seen for six years because they might harbor it and they may ever get in a hold like a hold of like a journalist who really wants to sink their teeth into a story because that's a thing. The more clickbaity and outrageous something sounds, the more money it makes a publication. Like,

• 34:41Speaker 01

  so the worse they can make you look, the more they can like make something seem really scary and horrific, the better because the more eyeballs it gets, the more money they make in advertising. So I do think like while journalism and investigative reporting is so important, and I don't knock that journalist because you got to make a name for yourself and like slay diva, but it does have real life implications. And it's partly why I really try not to like say things like on TikTok. Like you see a lot of celebrities like breaking down and dancing in the streets for like all of these people's downfalls and getting so rich off of this cancel culture. And there is like, and it's not even only

• 35:26Speaker 01

  people that are like crazy successful. Like even for me, like I was like one wrong thing away from like losing everything. Like JV and hair was compromised or retailers were compromised. My podcast was compromised. It was really serious. And the words that the sources used in that article were intentional to create as much damage as possible. Because who wants to work with an emotionally abusive nightmare with rage issues? You know? So that was like, it was just, all of that was happening like at the same time. Like finding a new home for JV and hair, dealing with the impending article, like dealing with the casting changes in the show, dealing with like all of the world kind of like just surviving that pylon was like.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Really so crazy.

• 36:12Elizabeth Day?

  I can't even imagine. I think it's so interesting to hear you talk about journalism because I know that your heritage is journalism. You have a whole family lineage of journalists. And that idea of being one step away, I mean, who amongst us hasn't had a bad day where we've been ruder than we thought we were going to be to the guy driving the taxi? Like, it just, it must be such a crushing pressure. So you're at this point at the end of 2023 where it feels like you're having to question yourself in business and yourself.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And just not trusting myself at all. Because like, I was like, I trusted, like, with Getting Curious, like, didn't work out. JV and Hair, like, trusted the wrong people, like, totally got just burnt. And so, yeah, that was like, that was all really intense. But I think for JV and Hair, I'm just so proud of our team, so resilient, like, stuck through so much, our president. Like, I'm just so proud of us. And now what we kind of have done is like, sometimes you do have to like shrink to grow. And I didn't want to like, throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, I wanted to like, this is my legacy. Like, I worked so hard on these formulas. I worked so hard on this concept. And I just, I want to see it through. And I really believe in our products. And so, like, a year later from like, because our transition

• 37:26Speaker 01

  happened in January of 2024 to our new company. So it's like, a year and a couple months later, like, we've had like, successive growth in the last few months. Like, our numbers are getting better. Like, it just was really such an intense transition. And I'm just so proud of our team for sticking it out and having the wherewithal. I was like, so grateful for the people that, like, stuck with us.

• 37:47Elizabeth Day?

  We love you. Your products were amazing. And yes, you should be proud of your team, but you should be so proud of yourself for getting through this.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 37:54Elizabeth Day?

  You really should. And thank you so much for talking about.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I didn't, I wasn't going to talk about that, you guys. But then it just, you know, but that's the other thing. Like, there are certain things that I just feel like such guilt and shame about that I felt like I'm afraid to talk about. And also, like, the last time I talked about on a podcast, it was like, Got all of this pick up in the press, which like that created this whole other like just mental like, bleh, like, cause it's just terrifying, like having your humanity and like, whether you're a good or bad person be litigated in clickbait media is like not fun.

• 38:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  And it's really not good for people.

• 38:29Elizabeth Day?

  Well, also you quoted Brené Rann earlier, our, our queen Brené.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Obsessed.

• 38:33Elizabeth Day?

  Totally obsessed. And she famously says that shame thrives in silence.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:38Elizabeth Day?

  The antidote to shame is sharing, is talking about it. And that's why it's important. And that feeling that you get of like, oh, should I have done that? That's just shame trying to rear its head again. And so you're doing totally the right things by talking about it in such an honest and beautiful way that invites other people to look at their shame.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:58Elizabeth Day?

  And to deny it and to be able to let it go and be who they are in the fullness of their authenticity.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  I also just want to say, can I say one other thing about it?

• 39:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  So like on Queer Eye specifically, like there have been so many times where like, I wish I was more patient and wish that I was calmer. But I do think that there were times where like, no one could know the pressure that I was under because there would be like 60 people on set and I have like some people like very high up being like, this makeover has to be more dramatic. I need more change. But then other people would be like, we have to be done in 30 minutes. And you're on camera with all of these people like swirling around you, doing mic checks, like in the middle of foiling someone's hair. Like there were times where I was like, these are chemicals. Like, I can't have this. Like, do not interrupt me again. Like, don't come around me again. Like,

• 39:49Speaker 01

  there's chemicals like right next to this lady's eye. Like, I'm talking like safety, OSHA, like, I got, like, please don't. There were times where I should have been better and I should have been more patient and I could have been more graceful and patient with it, but I just wish that I could have the people who I hurt, obviously, and those sources, like, I wish we could have talked about it. I wish I would have known. Cause I would never intentionally hurt someone, but I also get the difference between intention and impact. So if given the chance, I would have loved to have repaired those relationships. Like not in front of the world on Rolling Stone. But if their intention was to heal the relationship.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  These people know where my email is. I've worked with them, but that wasn't the intention. The intention was to hurt me as bad as possible. And I think that sucks.

• 40:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  I also think there was a lot of like trans misogyny wrapped up in that. Because I've seen other people act much worse that never would have that feedback. But they're not them presenting queer people. And I don't mean my castmates. I just mean like people in the industry.

• 40:57Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel like you've made an effort to change your own impact now when you're filming?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:03Elizabeth Day?

  Okay. And were your castmates supportive?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yes, it brought us all closer.

• 41:11Elizabeth Day?

  I love watching the dynamic between you on screen.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  They're so cute and funny.

• 41:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. That actually seamless link brings us on to your final failure, which is to do with Queer Eye, and it's a specific makeover.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I still think about it. I lose sleep over it.

• 41:26Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so intrigued because I know that I rewatched this episode, but I remembered it. But I'm so intrigued why you've chosen it.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  It's the only, it's the only episode I've ever like, like left crying. Like I left that salon, not to his face, but when he left, I broke down.

• 41:44Elizabeth Day?

  You did seem really down.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  In that green T-shirt. I still remember what I was wearing. Like I, I broke down.

• 41:50Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so why Max? So it's Ted Terry. He's a local mayor and it's season two of Queer Eye and he has a beard.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:57Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so tell us the story.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Ted Terry was like, we hadn't done very many episodes. And Ted, if you're watching, I was like, with his beard, it was his resistance beard. This was like 2017, Trump had just been in and he was like growing that beard out since Trump had been in office. And I thought it was so cute. I was like, he's giving me like woodsman, like mayor man, like cute ass, like fucking beard. I like, I was very sexually attracted to his beard. And I was like, it just needs a little shaping. But production was like, this is a makeover show. You can't do like these little tiny beard trims. Like, we want to see like a bigger makeover. And I was like, you guys, we aren't doing like makeovers for the sake of it. Like they have to be hotter. Like they need to look better after the makeover. You don't want it to look worse.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  And so the whole time I was cutting his hair, they, I kept having people coming out and being like, oh, like, we need to talk to you. And I like would get taken in the back and I had like all of these folks like pressuring me to like do this cut. And I was like, I really felt.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Dedicated to my creative vision and like wanted to realize my creative vision. But then, once I was done, they're like, it's not enough. Like, the beard goes. Like, cut his beard off. So I was like, oh, my God. So then I cut the beard off. But then his haircut, like with no beard, like, I was like, let me do a little bit more. But the next thing I knew, like, it wasn't blending, the top wasn't right, like, it didn't look right together. And then, like, I felt like they needed to leave and I'd, like, taken too long. And I just, like, I wasn't happy with it. Like, it wasn't how I wanted it to look. And I was like definitively, I think of all of my work, on all of my Body of Queer Eye, it's the only time where the hero looked worse when I was done. And that just, I remember, like, watching his playback, like, in the loft and just being like,

• 43:42Speaker 01

  oh, like, it's not cuter. And he's had his beard forever since. Thank God. Good call. But yeah, just, that was just, oh, it's just like, like, being overruled on your department is just never fun. It happened one other time and after I left, um, they had him cut his beard off, which, like, trauma. And then after that, I was like, that's never gonna happen again. And then, thank God, it never has. So now we just, like, stick with my vision.

• 44:10Elizabeth Day?

  And has Ted Terry been in touch since?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Well, I follow him and he's, and he's, now he's a, what's his new title? He's not a mayor anymore. He's like on the, he's like a commissioner.

• 44:20Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes, but his beard is back, thank God. And he's so cute. I just think he's such a nice man.

• 44:25Elizabeth Day?

  So nice. And does he know that you regret the makeover that you gave him?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  I think I slid in, I, I'm not sure. I could, let me look.

• 44:32Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I, I think.

• 44:33Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I love it.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I, I think we have had this talk, but I'm gonna look really quick.

• 44:39Elizabeth Day?

  Because he actually liked his makeover, or seemed to, didn't he?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think.

• 44:43Elizabeth Day?

  Maybe it was just edited.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, well, I mean, he liked it to my face.

• 44:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  He's Commissioner Ted Terry, honey.

• 44:50Elizabeth Day?

  Commissioner.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  The beard is very back and it's so cute. I mean, he just looks good with a beard.

• 44:57Elizabeth Day?

  He looks great.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  He looks great with a beard.

• 44:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, but that's a trimmed beard. It was.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yes, it was a little, it was a little bigger.

• 45:03Elizabeth Day?

  It's quite survivalist.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Um, oh my God. Oh, wait, standby.

• 45:06Elizabeth Day?

  Are you texting him right now?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay, let's just send a video. Okay.

• 45:10Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Okay. Ted, honey, I'm with Elizabeth. We're on the How to Fail podcast and I'm just giving you a heads up. I love you so much, but I was talking about me cutting off your beard is like one of my biggest career fails. Cause I just think you're so cute with a beard and I'm so proud of you and I'm so proud of you and I am so happy that you are just giving it to him in Georgia. And I just love you and you're the best. Bye. Yes.

• 45:32Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my, look at that. Real time.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Did it?

• 45:35Elizabeth Day?

  Real time. Let me know what happens.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  I will.

• 45:38Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you. Um, beards. Wait, now I've got off track. Social media, that's what I wanted to ask you about. So we've spoken a lot through our conversation about that idea of knowing yourself and trusting your instinct. How difficult is that to do when you have such a huge following on social media?

• 45:54Speaker 01

  It's hard. Um, it's really hard. And I think, like, this is something where I really like, just hats off to Mel Robbins. Like, she's really helped me. Like, I really feel like the bigger my career got, the less willing I was to, like, put myself out there on social media, believe it or not. And I feel like I kind of pulled back and ever since her book and like her let them theory, it's like, I want to try to stay more true to myself and like, let people think like what they're gonna think. Cause I can't control a reaction and it's not my job to control your reaction, but it is my job to tell my truth and to share what I've experienced.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Like with kindness is, you know, as much as I can. So, which I totally fall short on sometimes, but I think that's what I'm trying to do. And I'm trying to lean more into that.

• 46:45Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, yes. That theory has really changed the world, hasn't it?

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is doing it.

• 46:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Final question. I've loved this chat so much.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Me too. I feel like I talked a lot. I'm sorry.

• 46:56Elizabeth Day?

  Never apologize for that. You talk just the right amount.

• 47:00Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm thrilled that you did. As an, you know this, as an interviewer, it's so wonderful when someone talks and opens up.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  I feel very safe here.

• 47:09Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so happy to hear that. That's the thing that I most want people to feel when they come into this pink womb.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it is a pink womb room. I love that.

• 47:17Elizabeth Day?

  I want to ask you, if you had the chance, what you'd do to Donald Trump's hair?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe just give him a full yasified diva lace front. Just give him like a full on like drag experience so that he could like not be so scared of us and be like, oh my God, this is kind of amazing. I mean, he does already kind of do his own version of drag, but let's give him like a really thick, nice wig and just really give him some contour. And maybe he'll not be so afraid of like gender fluid and gender queer people.

• 47:51Elizabeth Day?

  Mic drop moment. Thank you so much, Jonathan Van Ness, for coming on How to Fail.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, honey.

• 47:57Elizabeth Day?

  And you're staying for Failing with Friends. You're going to answer some listener failures and questions. I can't wait to get into it.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Thanks, honey.

• 48:03Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.