Stephen Merchant: ‘Most famous people are f**cked up’

Actor, writer and director Stephen Merchant joins How To Fail this week and is reflective, fascinating and - yes - even funny. We talk about what he learned from Ricky Gervais when co-writing The Office, on feeling rattled turning 50 and how it’s hard to fail as a stand-up comedian (but he got over it). ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 17:16 Height and Humor 17:50 Reflections on Failure and Success 22:12 Stephen Career Journey 30:50 The Office and Ordinary Lives 32:46 The Comfort of Rewatchable Comedies 33:53 Exploring Dark Roles in Acting 35:42 Embracing Height as an Advantage 37:37 School Experiences and Early Ambitions 45:18 The Journey to Comedy and Stand-Up 52:41 Lessons from Stand-Up Comedy 58:48 Realizing No One Has Life Figured Out 01:03:39 Reflections on Success and Happiness Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 1:07Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote put it, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavour. He was so good, Truman. Before we get to our guest today, I wanted to mention our subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends. This is where my guest and I answer your questions, and we offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's a bit of Stephen Merchant to whet your appetite.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  She's volunteering and giving teas at an oncology day, and now she's feeling guilty if she's having a cup of tea. I mean, goodness.

• 1:40Elizabeth Day?

  Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes, and you can send me an email or look out for my callouts once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions. Let's get into my conversation with Stephen Merchant.

• 1:55Elizabeth Day?

  As a child, Stephen Merchant used to draw comic strips of his favourite comedy show, Faulty Towers. From a young age, his hero was the man who wrote and starred in it, John Cleese. When, a few years ago, Merchant's parents happened to meet Cleese on a cruise, the elder comedian admitted he was "a huge fan of their son". That's because, in the intervening years, Merchant had established himself as "one of our foremost comedic writers and performers". In the early 2000s, he co-wrote and directed The Office with Ricky Gervais, his former boss at radio station XFM. The Office ran for only two years, and yet it made both Gervais and Merchant superstars. When it won a Golden

• 2:39Elizabeth Day?

  Globe in 2004, it became the first British comedy ever to do so. Since then, Merchant's varied career has taken him from an HBO series, Hello Ladies, based on his stand-up comedy, to writing and directing films such as Fighting With My Family and the comedy crime series, The Outlaws. He's also won plaudits for some serious acting, as the Gestapo leader Captain Dietz in the Oscar-winning movie Jojo Rabbit, and as serial killer Stephen Port in the 2022 drama Four Lives. If there is one theme that connects his creative interests, it is perhaps "ordinary people made extraordinary by events". Merchant once attributed his desire

• 3:23Elizabeth Day?

  to keep experimenting to a fear of being stuck. He said, "I think there's probably a part of me that was always scared of getting trapped in some life I didn't want, and waking up at 50 and going, 'What have I done?'" Stephen Merchant, welcome to How To Fail.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 3:42Elizabeth Day?

  You're turning 50 this year.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  You don't need to remind me.

• 3:45Elizabeth Day?

  So what have you done? How are you feeling with the stuckness?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I am, I remember when people turned thirty in my orbit and they seemed to be having little crises, little mini crises. And I just was, I was just swinging for the fences. I was like, yeah, what are you talking about? It's all great. And forty kind of came and went. And I was like, yeah, this is good. But for some reason, as I approached fifty, I do feel a little bit more rattled than I was expecting to. I don't know if it's to do with impending death, or if it's more to do with, it feels like there's lots of articles in broadsheets about life after fifty, you know, and exercising after fifty, and have you got your ice sign check after fifty, and all those things. So it's sort of, I'm being constantly told it's a milestone. Whereas I, I've never

• 4:33Speaker 01

  really lived life based on those sorts of milestones. They're sort of imposed by, by other people.

• 4:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Well, I wonder if it's strange because you had success really young and sort of success that no one could argue with.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:50Elizabeth Day?

  So it's possibly not about leaving a legacy. Like, you've got that in shape, do you think?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  It feels like there's lots of things I still want to do. You mentioned about me drawing comic strips of poverty towers, you know, the jobs that I do were hobbies before they were a career. And so people sometimes say, you know, you, you know, you're a workaholic and you, and you're doing so many things. And why didn't you slow down? And I always think, well, I get your point. But what was I supposed, what am I supposed to be doing in my downtime? Am I supposed to just take up golf? Or, nothing against golf, but it's like, I enjoy the things I do. They were my hobbies. And so, and so if I have ambitions, they're, they're for those sort of creative pursuits that seem exciting to me, whether it's, I don't know, writing a play, or writing a book, or, you know, directing a three hour sci fi epic, or whatever. It's sort of, they're all

• 5:40Speaker 01

  exciting challenges. And I think I'm I'm aware that you only have so long to sort of accomplish those different things.

• 5:48Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you had any kind of shame attached to the idea of ambition or success?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  I definitely think there's something in British culture that seems to force you to downplay ambition. If you become successful, you have to sort of keep making, I was just lucky. I was in the right place at the right time. And, you know, of course, there are elements of that, but you need the drive, you know? The idea of the sort of, you know, you'll hear those guys in the pub, you know? Yeah, I could have been heavyweight champion of the world. Did you ever get in the boxing ring? No, I didn't, I didn't, but I reckon if I had, I, you know, it's like, well, unless you get in the ring, you won't know. And I, and I feel spending time in America, they have the complete opposite, right? Where it's, you know, teaching kids that they could be president one day. If, if in my school, if you'd said, I'd love to be prime minister, they'd be like, what are you talking about? Know your place, this is absurd.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You need to go to Eton, you know, it was sort of, there was just assumptions about, about, uh, you know? Like I say, a sort of feeling of, of know your place. And, and I suppose I, you know, I nev-, I was thinking recently, why on earth, when I was young, did I think that I could try and be John Cleese? Like, what a weird arrogance to have as a teenager. And yet, in my mind, I was sort of like, well, if you need, um, tall, funny guys that were born in the West Country, well, yeah. Sure, I'll give it a go.

• 7:11Elizabeth Day?

  Got that one down pat.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Elizabeth Day?

  Um, just talking about those blokes in the pub, I've lost count of the number of times that men have told me that they came up with the idea for how to fail first.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 7:20Elizabeth Day?

  They just didn't launch it.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 7:22Elizabeth Day?

  They, they had the idea.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that, that counts.

• 7:26Elizabeth Day?

  So John Cleese, have you ever met him?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  I've never met Cleese, no. Cleese's work for me has, has been done in terms of, you know, in terms of inspiring me and, and admiring him and things. And it'd be lovely to run into him and have a chat, but I don't, it's not like it's a great unfulfilled ambition.

• 7:41Elizabeth Day?

  And he was nice to your parents?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  He was very nice to my parents. On a, on a, a voicemail that he left on their, on their, um, on their cruise room phone, yes.

• 7:51Elizabeth Day?

  Your parents, when I said in the introduction that I think one of the recurring themes in your work is that focus on ordinary lives in extraordinary circumstances. And your parents have

• 8:06Elizabeth Day?

  They sound like very grounded people with very normal jobs.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:10Elizabeth Day?

  How much of that fascination, if it is indeed a fascination, has come from your childhood?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  I think certainly my father would have, you know, he's very funny and has kind of a creative spirit, which was not something that was really available to him to explore when he was young. You know, he came from a very working class background and the expectation was to get a job and or to learn a trade. And that was what he did. And I, and I, so I sense from him, and he would, I think, say that that there were times when he was in his working life where he felt frustrated, not because he wished he could go off and write a play, but just because it was a job of work. It wasn't a career choice. It wasn't, you know, and there was those pressures of feeding families and so on. And I think.

• 8:56Elizabeth Day?

  He was a plumber.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  He was a plumber and did some building work and things. And so I think, I'm not trying to disparage plumbers. It's just for him, it was just not something that he, you know, it was a job of work. It was a way to pay the mortgage. And, and that, I think, kind of fed into me when I was young. Like, oh, it is a part of my dad's life he doesn't fully enjoy. That's the thing you mentioned about feeling trapped. I didn't want to, to ever be in that situation where I got up sort of dreading the day. And there are times when you, of course, you do because you know you've got, there's a difficult day ahead or whatever. But on the whole, I look, I sort of, I get out of bed and I kind of look forward to what I'm doing.

• 9:35Elizabeth Day?

  That's so interesting because the office, which is the thing that first made your name, is exploring that really, isn't it? It's people who are trapped in this office.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:46Elizabeth Day?

  With this ridiculous boss who probably do wake up with a feeling of dread, but they're saved by the people that they work with.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:53Elizabeth Day?

  So how much was that exploring your own worst fears?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  That idea, I forget who sort of coined that phrase of, you know, lives of quiet desperation or whatever. But that idea of.

• 10:02Elizabeth Day?

  John Stein, I think.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Was it? Yeah. Well, there you are. And so.

• 10:04Elizabeth Day?

  One of the only quotes I know.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But there's a great truth to that. And it seemed like. It wasn't just my family, like it was just people that you grew up with. It was it was teachers. It was it was other people's parents. It was career advisers. It was, you know, there was it just always felt there was a lot of people um who were feeling frustrated in their lives. And I don't want that to sound sneering. I I don't think The Office was ever meant to be sneery. It was just that, you know, there was a danger that you could wake up, as we mentioned in in your introduction, i- i- age fifty and go, what what have I done?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  And from a for some reason, from a young age, that was that was an anxiety. I remember years ago, um I got a temporary job at sort of a call centre and there was a guy kind of training us. And um and I he said, oh, what are you interested in doing? And I said, oh, I'd quite like to get some acting and performing. And he said, you used to be an actor? I went, oh, all right. Okay, yeah. And then he said, yeah, and you know, and and training people in the call centre, that's a form of acting. And I just sensed in it a kind of like he was making excuses or apologies for it not having quite worked out for him, you know? And I thought it just that sort of idea that he that he had nothing to apologize for, and yet he felt a need to. I just thought that, I don't know, I I always used to pick up on that stuff when I was young.

• 11:26Elizabeth Day?

  That's so beautiful. And that's David Brent and his music career.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

• 11:31Elizabeth Day?

  Final question before we get on to your failures. There are certain comedies that everyone can re-watch again and again and again. The Office, for me, is one of those.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:42Elizabeth Day?

  What is it that makes a comedy re-watchable?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  It's the the characters and their interactions and that feeling that even for all of the discomfort that you can feel watching The Office, you sort of know that world that you can kind of fall back into it. And there's a strange comfort to it, even if there's a discomfort watching the show. And I think it's one of the reasons why in the pandemic people revisited sitcoms, whether it be Friends or the American version of The Office, or The Big Bang Theory, or whatever people, there's something about the kind of coziness, the familiarity, that the the problems they encounter are not world-changing.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Their arguments over a desk or a coffee machine or whatever there, um there's something reassuring about that. There's something comforting.

• 12:34Elizabeth Day?

  I said it was my final question. I lied, um because that's made me think of something else. So the comfort of that. Sits in opposition to the darkness that you explore in your quote unquote serious acting. There's not a way of saying that without it sounding like I'm being facetious and I'm not. But is that a deliberate decision that you want to explore sort of dark, tricky roles and people, you know, Gestapo officer and a serial killer?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Well, I think that they're all, in a strange way, they're, they're, you can see the thread because to me, what's interesting about a Gestapo character is that those were often people that were mundane nobodies, that were given power of life and death. And yet, in ordinary civilian life, they would have been petty bureaucrats. And so you can see a sort of warped version of The Office in which that's what David Brent becomes, you know, it's a, it's, it's petty people with, with too much power, you know, they're not, and the same with Stephen Porter, is that these people, when you start to dig

• 13:40Speaker 01

  into them, they're not these fascinating Hannibal Lecter-esque, erudite, classical music-loving Shakespeare-quoting geniuses. They're mundane people with some wiring that's gone awry that has made them do abhorrent things. But they're, they are, they're the person who lives in your street, they're the person on the news where the neighbour goes, "He just seemed like a quiet, ordinary bloke. I was totally shocked. There were 14 bodies in the basement." You know, they're, they're, again, then, that's what's sort of fascinating about human nature is that people are very rarely, when you scratch beneath the surface, utterly unknowable and extreme. And that's, I think, what's interesting about those people.

• 14:25Elizabeth Day?

  Such a good answer.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:27Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, let's get on to Seamless Link, your first failure. Your failure to realise that your height was an advantage.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:36Elizabeth Day?

  When was the first time you realised you were tall?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  I feel like I was always tall. I can't really remember a pre-tall era.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  But I suppose by the time I was in my early teens, it was a sort of feature. It was, oh, you're the tall guy. And then by the mid teens, you're the, you're the lanky, gangly guy. And that that's the sort of hallmark of you. If people were to characterize you or had to describe you, or that was the thing. And, um, and so, and so I suppose it made me self-conscious in a way that, um, as the reason I mentioned not realizing it was an asset, was that it took me a long time to realize that people dream of being tall.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  And they're, they're jealous of tallness and they're envious of it. And, and so for there was a long time, I think, where it made me feel awkward or self-conscious. Someone said to me in an interview once, I thought it was quite a presumptuous question, but there's probably some truth in it. Did you go into comedy to control when people laugh at you? And I think it's sort of this degree of that, but I think it was more that I felt like I stood out without asking to stand out. You know, I didn't need to have a mohawk or a crazy sense of dress. I, I draw, I drew your eye, whether I liked it or not. And so comedy was a way of leaning into that, I suppose. And sort of, well, if you're going to look at me, you may as well look at me for a reason.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Cause I'm, you know, being amusing on stage or whatever it might be.

• 16:22Elizabeth Day?

  So what were your teenage years like at school? What was your experience like?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Um, it was pretty good, really. I mean, I, you know, I know a lot of people who went into comedy, talk about bullying. I don't really remember any bullying. Um, I mean, I felt like, you know, people were always kind of sniping in every direction, but it was never directed at me exclusively, you know, and I, and I didn't feel, you know, I didn't dread going to school. I, I, you know, I, I felt I enjoyed school. Um, and by the sort of later years of school, as, as a kid who was sort of doing quite well, grades wise, you know, it gave me a lot of leeway with teachers. Cause, cause it was like, they thought we've got to keep this kid on the books because he'll probably get a couple of A's. That'll look good in the stats, you know, so, um.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  But I suppose I remember my, when I look back now, I feel like, um.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I was, I was, there was an insecurity that was masked by a certain kind of, by outspokenness or a sense of humour or whatever, whatever it was. Um, yeah.

• 17:32Elizabeth Day?

  Are you an only child?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  No, I have one sister.

• 17:34Elizabeth Day?

  Is she tall?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  She's relatively tall, but no, I'm the, I'm the freak of the family.

• 17:39Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:40Elizabeth Day?

  Um, so height is very interesting because I've had Richard Osman sitting exactly where you're sitting on this podcast before. And I think you're exactly the same height.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 17:51Elizabeth Day?

  And he talks about the way people respond to him as a form of body shaming.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 17:57Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel that?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny, I'm, I'm working on a new stand up routine at the moment and I'm talking about how people feel that they can make remarks about your height and they can make jokes about it. And again, I'm not, this is not an oh, whoa, is me thing. It's just interesting that when we talk about body shaming or, or sizes or whatever it is, no one feels they have to hold their tongue about someone who's tall and because it's seen as some kind of accomplishment. I had no involvement in being this tall. It's not like I worked out in a very, in a very vertical sense. It was just a, you know, something that happened. But yeah, there is, as Richard says, there is a sort of, you know, you walk in a pub and, and you place a drink for, you know, two pints of beer and someone will say, that's a tall order. And everyone will laugh.

• 18:44Elizabeth Day?

  Sorry.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  You know, but everyone laughs because, because then it's not seen. And again, I don't go away in tears. I, it's fine. It doesn't bother me. But it's interesting that it's something people feel very comfortable about, about commenting on.

• 18:58Elizabeth Day?

  But it must be annoying as well.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Well, it's annoying because it's boring.

• 19:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  If you ask me, do I play basketball? No. I, where's that conversation going? What's the weather like up there? Okay. But I've heard this for, you know, forty something years. It's not, you know, I try to be polite, but there's part of me who wants to go, mate, come on, you know, so much, so much for me.

• 19:20Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that people try to be funny with you when they meet you because they want to impress you?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or sometimes I think it'll go the other way where you'll have people that will want to do a little dig as so as if, so as if to say, I'm not impressed.

• 19:35Elizabeth Day?

  Mm hmm. Have you ever had feedback from an audition or from conversations with, I don't know, TV or movie execs where they're like, you're just too tall?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  I haven't, but I would imagine that it must be a deciding factor i- in people's casting decisions. They must, there must be part of them that has pigeonholed me slightly as the, as the very tall guy. When you get to this height, it starts to seem abnormal on screen in a way that just sort of being a strapping six foot two just feels manly. When you get to six foot seven, it's like, all right, come on, mate. You can play a sort of, you can play a kind of mutant in a Wolverine film. But the reason I mention not realising it was an asset was, I think, more in private life.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  There was a moment, sort of probably in my mid to late twenties, where it dawned on me that this is something people are envious of. And that instead of sort of trying to make your feel, yourself feel smaller as if to not draw attention to yourself, just embrace it, you know, walk with that, with a, with a, with a swagger or a confidence that comes with being tall. I did feel like it kind of, it opened something up in me, not feeling so self-conscious about it. And I've, funny enough, years later, someone said to me, I was working on a project and someone said to me, you know, oh, the thing is, you know, you know, because of your height, you know, you can seem intimidating. And I was like, wow, you're right, of course, like that never occurred to me.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Cause I try not, I'm not trying not to be that person. But of course it can, you know, you, you can walk into a room and you can, and it can seem quite commanding, particularly if you're in a position of authority as a director or whatever. And so it's just interesting, you know, the way that my relationship with height and my own height has sort of changed over the years.

• 21:28Elizabeth Day?

  What are the greatest assets now? What are the things that you experienced because of your height that you're really grateful for?

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Well, there's the obvious things of, you know, uh, being at concerts.

• 21:37Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Being able to reach things down from a high shelf. And it's funny, cause even when I hear, I'll hear someone like Donald Trump sort of boasting about how he's tall. And how, you know, he'll, he's making some sneering comments about Bruce Springsteen, of whom I'm a big fan. You know, that's little Bruce Springsteen, whatever. And it's like, and it's funny to me that. You know, well, but I'm taller than you, Donald. I mean, there's always someone taller.

• 21:58Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  You know, it's just sort of, it's such a strange thing to be arrogant about. It wasn't even something you, you didn't accomplish this, Donald.

• 22:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  You're just taller than some people. It's still a pain in the arse. I mean, it's a pain in the arse in terms of getting clothes. It's a pain in the arse in terms of fitting into cars and plane seats and beds and this chair. I mean, no, it's a little bit too tiny. I'm sure Richard felt the same. No, it's all fine. But you know what I mean? So it's a, it's a bit of a pain in the arse as well. But, you know, it's all fine. It's, it's as, as, as, as a complaint, it's, it's a minor one.

• 22:32Elizabeth Day?

  Is it true that you've got a lifetime ban from High and Mighty, the tall person?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  I don't know if I have a, I don't know that High and Mighty is still going. I'm feeling like might have gone into administration at some point. Yes, but I, I gave a comment years ago in an interview in Time Out. And I think probably because I didn't realise that I was, that anyone would really pay attention to it. And so I made some comment about how High and Mighty, which was a shop for tall and larger people. The clothes were kind of not great quality, but were rather overpriced. And then some years later, a costume designer on a production had gone into High and Mighty to buy clothes for a character I was playing. And she had asked, oh, I'm buying these for a TV show and can I bring back the ones we don't use?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And they said, which actors these, which actor are these for? And she said, I'm not a liberty to say who the actor is. And the person behind the counter pulled out a laminated copy of the Time Out interview and said, is it him? We don't serve to, we don't serve him.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  And yeah, so I mean, I guess I hadn't gone in there for a while, so it hadn't come back to haunt me. But I do feel bad that, particularly if that had any involvement in there, in there going under.

• 23:55Elizabeth Day?

  How long do you think it took you to catch up with the the level of fame that you attained?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's sort of because it I've always my analogy is that one that people use about the frog in the pan of water, right? And you you slowly heat it up and it doesn't realise it's getting boiled alive. Whereas if you throw a frog into the boiling pan, then it jumps around. And I think if you're on the X Factor and you're suddenly well known overnight, it must be quite a culture shock. Whereas if you begin as a writer behind the scenes of a show and then you start to perform and it's sort of over time, you you know, the snowball of your celebrity is takes a long time to to get down the hill. And so probably the time I gave that interview, I was relatively unknown. So I probably didn't think that it would have any bearing.

• 24:46Elizabeth Day?

  Do you like being a celebrity?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think it goes back to that point I made initially about being tall was that I was I always stood out. People always made comments. They always looked at me. They always remarked. I could never blend in. And so now, when people look at me, they they go, it's that guy, you know, and they they on the whole, because I think comedy generally is something people it puts a smile on people's face. I very rarely have negative comments. So people are normally always very lovely. I mean, it's frustrating at times because, you know, you don't all again, you don't always want to stand out from the crowd. But on the whole, it's treated me very nicely.

• 25:27Elizabeth Day?

  Your second failure is your failure to get into Oxbridge.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:32Elizabeth Day?

  So you mentioned that at school you got good grades.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:35Elizabeth Day?

  Was this an early ambition that you?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Well, again, this I was very lucky and I I felt like I knew what I wanted to do from a young age. I can't remember exactly how young, but I do feel, as you mentioned, I was writing my little comic strips about sitcoms and forty towers. And I used to read about them. And I read about someone like John Cleese, you know, who'd come from Western Super Mayor, not far from Bristol, where I come from. He had gone to Cambridge. The Footlights was the kind of comedy, you know, breeding ground of great talent. And that was the sort of way you ended up on the BBC. And that seemed like a career path. And so that's, that was sort of my plan was like, well, I'll just get to Cambridge and then I'll go in the Footlights and then I'll be on TV and I'll do comedy. That I sort of didn't have a fallback plan. That was it.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  And I remember going to teachers and saying, this is my plan. And they just sort of looked at me like, you're a maniac. Again, just going back to that feeling. And maybe that's changed. But certainly then it felt like people were like, what are you talking about? Like, you're not gonna be John Cleese. It's be sensible. At the same time, they just, they didn't think I'd get into Cambridge. They were like, you know, I don't, I think this is a pipe dream. I don't think you're gonna get those kinds of grades. And so they said, you're not gonna get into Cambridge. The best chance you have is, is trying to go for Oxford, where you could do an exam as an entry exam, which I think at the time wasn't available at Cambridge. But the problem was it's sort of, I got that news quite late. And so I didn't really

• 27:06Speaker 01

  have time to kind of fully study for the Oxford exam. So I did it. And I guess I didn't do very well. And I never got a place. And so, and you could only at the time, apply to either Oxford or Cambridge. So that, so that it went out the window. And then the exams came along and I got three A's at A level, which I think would have been sufficient for Cambridge. But having never applied, it was too late. And, and so I felt like, I sort of felt like I'd been done a disservice because other people's ambitions for me were, were lower than my own. And I felt frustrated by that.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And so I had to sort of pivot. And as it was, I went to University of Warwick. I studied film. There was a radio station at Warwick, which is one of the reasons I went there. I started doing a radio show. I started making some short films. That radio show gave me a sort of grounding in radio, which subsequently got me a job at a radio station in London, which is where I met Gervais, Ricky Gervais, and off we went. So it all worked out, but it and as it and looking back now, I think it was sort of for the best because I don't think that very kind of erudite sort of Stephen Fry brand of comedy, although I'm a huge fan, it's not, that's not really me.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  And I think I would have been slightly out of depth at Cambridge. I know, I think, I don't think I even realised I had a Bristol accent until I went to university. So I suspect I'd have got to Cambridge, I might have felt slightly out of place with lots of very well speaking, you know, RP accents. I don't, I mean, I think I'm academic, but I don't think I'm Cambridge academic. So as it is, I think it kind of worked out for the best. And I think that wouldn't have been the natural fit for me. But of course, when you're a teenager, you you don't realise that until later.

• 28:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, it's crushing, especially if other people seem not to believe in you in the way that you secretly believe in yourself.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  That's right. And it comes back to what we said about ambition. It was like, no one was kind of, they weren't sneering. It just seemed, it just seemed weird to them. Certainly at the time, I just sort of ended up putting a lot of faith, I think, in in adults.

• 29:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it was a different time as well. I mean, we came of ages very similar decades and there wasn't the internet. And so you couldn't find your community of other like minded people who might also be drawing comic strips, the Forty Towers, have these ambitions. So you only had that sort of immediate community.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right. You relied on the sort of advice of the people around you. And again, my parents weren't disparaging. They were very encouraging. But what did they know about how you got into Cambridge or what my grades were going to be? Or, you know, they, they were in a sense as dependent on, and I'm not trying to throw teachers under the bus. I just think it was, there was culturally. A sort of feeling, particularly in sort of suburban Bristol, in a kind of, you know, relatively modest school, that that wasn't what people did.

• 30:09Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. I'm very interested in this idea of little Stephen being very into comedy. And it sounds to me like you always knew what you wanted to do.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:18Elizabeth Day?

  So was your mother, did she also have this aspect? You've spoken about your dad having this kind of creative side to him. What about your mum? Do they both have really good senses of humour?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  I would say my mum's got a sense of humour, but I think my dad is the Joker of the pack and he's the one who I bonded with watching old comedy and movies and, you know, and things like that. And so that, and so laughter was, was a currency. And I would see, you know, as I got a little older and I would hang out with my dad and his friends, laughter was a currency among them. And blokes joked with each other and they were, they were wise asses to some degree. And, um, and so humour was, was a sort of, was, was valued and had an asset. And so because my dad was and remains kind of quite a gregarious, funny man in a social situation and will make jokes and will be

• 31:12Speaker 01

  fun and often the life and soul. The idea of taking that to the stage and actually performing didn't seem a mad idea. It was like one step further in a way than what you would do down the pub.

• 31:26Elizabeth Day?

  So what does stand up teach you about failure?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Well, that's pretty immediate because it took me a long time to pluck up the nerve to do stand up. And I eventually did it probably when I was about nineteen. And the first gig I did was about five minutes and it went terrific. It was great. And I thought, well, I've cracked this. It turns out I'm naturally brilliant at this. And then the next gig I did, oh, not so good. You know, I was, I was, I sort of bombed. And it swung back and forth then, you know, sometimes it went great, sometimes it didn't. And I think any stand up will tell you that particularly when you're building an act and working up material, however well known you are, you've got a grace period of five minutes maybe. And then people will laugh or they won't. And they don't laugh just because you're the bloke off the telly. They laugh because it's funny.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And I remember, um, when I was doing stand up in my early twenties, I did a gig in Exeter. And no one laughed except the waitress. And someone actually shouted taxi for the comedian.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  And I phoned my agent and said, well, you've got to get me out of all future gigs. I can never do this. This is, this was terrible. And he said, well, no, you can't, you're booked for another gig in Plymouth or somewhere. And I went to Plymouth and I had an anxious day in Plymouth and I went out and did the act and it went great. And I was, oh, now I'm back on the horse, you know. But what was interesting was when you die in front of a room of whatever it was, you know, a hundred people. You don't die physically, obviously, and so you're like, you kind of dust yourself down and you think that was embarrassing, but on you go and, and it's a baptism of fire in some way and it's not fun and you never enjoy it and when, if it happens again, you never look forward to it.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  You want to avoid it, but you, you sort of battle, you battle on, you know.

• 33:16Elizabeth Day?

  I guess it's also such a lesson in subjectivity of taste. And so you were doing the same material for different audiences in different locations.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:25Elizabeth Day?

  And you had an entirely different reaction, which suggests that it's the audience who are bringing their stuff and their emotional baggage and their perceptions.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Well, that's happening even at the moment. I mean, I'm working up on new material. I've got about an hour and so I'll try this out, this hour out in, you know, as I'm trying to refine it in different places. And some nights it will, everything will go gangbusters. Sometimes certain portions, sometimes other portions will go well and the things that went well the night before, not so well. And so your brain's frazzled because you're like, well, I'm, I'm doing the same words here and they're having different impacts. And so people will say, oh, there's no such thing as a bad audience, but there's definitely the, the night of the week, the time, the size of the crowd, how much booze they've had.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  And of course also, you know, whether you're tired or whether you're complacent or whatever, or whether you're feeling too self-confident, whatever. There are, there are a lot of variables about what, what makes something sound.

• 34:23Elizabeth Day?

  Wow, that's so interesting. So then ultimately, do you just have to have pure faith in you, you and your own material? You have to think it's worthwhile.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Well, you have to, what you try and do, I guess, is build up stuff that is as bulletproof as it can be, you know, it's like, well, I've done this, you know, enough times that, you know, 70% of the time it works. So that's the best you can kind of hope for. But it's it's tricky. I mean, I remember Eddie Izzard early on saying, you know, you have with stand up, you need to walk to the edge of the precipice and be brave enough to step off.

• 35:01Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  And that's very hard to do, particularly when you're well known. Because when you walk on stage, there's an audience anticipation that you're going to be funny. And however much you say this is new ideas, new material, I've never said it before. People don't really quite understand, unless they're in the game, that that means it could just be terrible. They just assume you have a base level of funny that you're there going to see. And if and they're kind and it's hard to it's hard to walk out there and and and fail. That's a hard thing to do, you know.

• 35:32Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you are confident now that you have a base level of funny?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  No, not with stand up, because this is it's it's it's unique in that you cannot test it out except in front of an audience. You can try it with friends, family, you can run the lines, you can work on it in your room. Until you put it in front of an audience, it's it's it's all irrelevant. It's only an audience that can tell you. And sometimes the thing you thought was funny isn't, and that something else is. It's it's a unique, it's a unique kind of art form.

• 36:04Elizabeth Day?

  What did Ricky Gervais teach you about comedy? I mean, I'd ask him what you taught him, not what he taught himself.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  What did Ricky Gervais teach me about comedy? I think with Ricky, I would have to give him credit for making sure you embrace your own uniqueness. You know, I think when I met him, I you I wasn't years, I wasn't many years out of university. And I probably still was a bit kind of chasing that kind of Cambridgey, that particular sense of humour. And I think, you know, in working with him, it helped me find my own voice. And you draw, I mean, because we were working together, drawing on our own experiences. A lot of time we spent just talking about our own lives and what made us laugh and sharing anecdotes and stories.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  And in doing that, you're in a little sort of laboratory together where you're kind of finding your own interests, what makes you laugh. You you tell a story and the other person laughs. And someone like Ricky's got, who's a very hearty laugher and a and very encouraging audience. If it's funny and he laughs, it probably is funny, you know, and I think it gave me confidence to sort of trust my own instincts, my own sense of humour, my own interests. I think probably, yeah, the biggest asset.

• 37:28Speaker 02

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• 38:23Speaker 05

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• 38:27Speaker 03

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• 38:38Elizabeth Day?

  That leads us on to your third and final failure.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Elizabeth Day?

  Which is a failure to understand earlier that no one has life figured out.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Well, it comes back to what we said about relying on teachers and other adults early on in life. You know, aside from not going to Cambridge, when I remember I had to choose, for some reason, I had to choose between art, which I loved, and Spanish. Studying, so I don't know why I couldn't do both, but for whatever reason I had to choose one or the other. And I'd got quite a good grade in French, but looking back, it was because I'd copied off Neil Tomlinson, who I sat next to. But Neil didn't do Spanish, so I couldn't copy off him. So for some reason, I remember saying to people, should I do art or Spanish? And everyone said, oh, Spanish, you know, it's good to learn a language. And I was like, well, looking back, I'm like, what did they think I was do? Was I gonna be

• 39:28Speaker 01

  doing business in Europe? Was that the plan? Whereas art just was what I was good at. I was, I enjoyed drawing and it kind of, so I did Spanish and I sort of let the art go. And I did terribly at Spanish because I wasn't naturally good at languages. And again, I remember thinking, I've, I've sort of, I've listened to people there because I thought they knew better. And they didn't know better. And I guess what I mean is that I think when you're younger, you can think that if you reach a certain level of success or celebrity, that some door is opened and that you're sort of, the world makes sense to you, or

• 40:08Speaker 01

  that you, or that those people have life figured out, or that they're happier. The older you get and the more you meet the people that are in those positions, you realize, my God, these people are fucked up. That doesn't matter how successful they are, or how famous they are, or the veneer of confidence that they project. As soon as you get beneath the surface, most people are just guessing. They're just trying to find their way like anybody else. Some of them are, are more ravaged with insecurity, or neurosis, or

• 40:44Speaker 01

  depression, or, or trauma than you are. And that there, everyone is this vulnerable thing, just moving along, trying to figure it out. Some, some are, are doing a lot of work on themselves to help. And they are often the more settled and balanced people. And there's others that are just covering their insecurities with bravado, or bullying, or whatever it might be. And you just, and it gives you a great release because you're like, oh, God, you know, oh, I'm okay, I'm okay. I'm all right. I'm pretty even keeled. I'm not suffering terribly emotionally. And I'm one of those people, I'll look at someone

• 41:29Speaker 01

  like Donald Trump. And I just see this neurotic, insecure man whose father clearly never gave him any validation, who's who's got a black hole of insecurity that can never be filled by anything, crowds, the presidency, and he's this damaged, fragile child with this awful kind of, you know, way of dealing with it. And it just, it seems sad to me. It seems tragic, you know, and people see him as a villain and I just think, he just seems pitiful, you know. And, um, and so, yeah, so I suppose it's sort of in, like I say, not realising

• 42:08Speaker 01

  that it's, it's, it's, it's, it sort of just evens the playing field of life. And I don't mean that in terms of like, oh, now I can, I can win. I just mean you go, oh, yeah, we're all, we're all just guessing.

• 42:23Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that's partly because you have attained a level of success, that you get to meet these people now? And so you get more of a window into their?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  I think it's partly that. I think it's also age. I think, you know, I feel like I'm at the age where a lot of people in charge of institutions, of society, of government, they are this age. And everyone I meet who is my age, like I say, when I scratch beneath the surface, they are, they are figuring it out. They're guessing. And so, and so you, it's both terrifying because you realise, yeah, there's sort of no one at the, there are no adults. There is no one at the helm, really, that we can rely on. But at the same time, it's really reassuring because it gives you perspective. It gives you the feeling

• 43:17Speaker 01

  that you're in charge of your own life, the life of the people around you. You're, you're responsible for yourself, that you have to be the sort of adult of your own existence, you know?

• 43:29Elizabeth Day?

  I really want to ask you about celebrity parties.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Elizabeth Day?

  And the worst one you've ever been to. You don't have to name names, but was there ever an occasion that you found yourself surrounded by people who in a past life might have been your heroes? And you sort of saw this bucket of neuroses?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  There are specific instances I can think of, of people, particularly very famous people, where they've revealed unwittingly some aspect. And you're like, oh, wow.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  If I was, if we pulled that thread, I goodness knows where that would lead. It's not like, I don't mean that to sound like a power move. It's just, it's helped me understand people. For instance, I find that if I'm working with people who are a little bit difficult, and that can manifest itself in all kinds of ways. And that could be actors or, or, um, uh, producers you work with, anyone. But it can often manifest itself in all kinds of ways. Sometimes it can be, you know, mood swings, or it could be a slightly, you know, mistreating other members of the team, or it can manifest in all sorts of ways. But what you realize is that's almost always insecurity that's feeding there.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  It's an insecurity that they themselves may not even be aware of. And so it means that you're, what you're trying to zero in on in order to work with them is, what's the thing which is making them feel insecure? And can I put a Band-Aid over that for the purposes of working together? Because I can't fix it, and it's not my job to fix it. But can I reassure them in this? Can I cocoon them enough that we can get this job done, this job of work done? And that's, and that can be people of, you know, any age and any background. It doesn't have to, it's not always, it's not like always young people or inexperienced people. It can be people from, who've had the biggest success. And so it's just, I guess it's, it's that, you know, like you're trying to, and I know that again, that sounds manipulative, but it's just,

• 45:25Elizabeth Day?

  No, it's like therapy.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  It's navigating your way through, through our, um, through your day to day existence, you know?

• 45:31Elizabeth Day?

  Where are you at with your own insecurities now? Having come to this really profound realization that people don't have it sorted out and people are all messes really in their own way.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Well, I actually think I'm quite lucky in that I would say I'm relatively even keeled emotionally. You know, I'm not, I'm not someone who's. Who has suffered particularly, you know, I I I'm sure if I was to dig deeper there, you know, I'm sure there's pockets of of things that I could deal with, but but I don't, you know, I I in an age in which people talk much more openly about their mental health and about their trauma, I I feel very privileged that I don't I don't relate to a lot of those much more difficult experiences that people have. I suppose if anything, I I feel, yeah,

• 46:24Speaker 01

  I do, I feel quite lucky that um that that I'm not um that I'm not more sort of troubled.

• 46:32Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel happy?

• 46:34Speaker 01

  I think I do feel quite happy. Yeah, yeah, I do. I um the ambition was always to sort of wake up and look forward to the day. And if that's a measure of happiness, then then I do.

• 46:44Elizabeth Day?

  Are you going to have a 50th birthday party?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  I think we'll just let that swim by.

• 46:49Elizabeth Day?

  Really?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't again, that is, there's an insecurity there. Yeah, I don't know what that is.

• 46:54Elizabeth Day?

  An insecurity about having attention predicated on your birthday?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  No, I think probably more just about about about turning 50.

• 46:59Elizabeth Day?

  It's fine. Everyone is in their 50s.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  It happens to everyone.

• 47:02Elizabeth Day?

  They're like, great, J Lo.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  That's true. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:04Elizabeth Day?

  Brad Pitt, maybe you don't follow his example, but like other people. Um, it's been a delight. Thank you. I've loved this conversation.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 47:11Elizabeth Day?

  And you're staying on for Failing with Friends, where you get to answer listener questions and queries and failures. So

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Great.

• 47:17Elizabeth Day?

  Stay seated in that uncomfortable chair and we'll be right back. Stephen Merchant, thank you so much for coming on How to Fail.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 47:26Elizabeth Day?

  We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please do tell all of your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.