Dannii Minogue - ‘I hit low points where I thought: “I just can’t take this any more.”

In her most revealing interview to date, Dannii Minogue talks openly about the pressures of fame, the relentless comparisons with her sister, Kylie, and navigating a divorce that left her broke. It’s an extraordinary conversation with a woman who found fame as a 10-year-old in her native Australia. As a teenager Dannii, signed a record deal and acted in Home and Away. In her early 20s her debut album went Gold in the UK, and she went on to have 9 top 10 singles. Over the course of her music career she has spent over 200 weeks in the official UK chart, sold in excess of seven million records worldwide, and scored a record-breaking 19 Number One dance singles. After a four year stint on The X Factor UK, she now hosts her own queer dating shows ‘I Kissed a Girl’ and ‘I Kissed a Boy’, on BBC3 and iPlayer. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:57 Dannii's Journey in the Entertainment Industry 02:49 The Importance of Allyship 03:44 Hosting 'I Kissed a Boy' 05:18 Personal Reflections 15:10 Failed Marriage and Lessons Learned 26:00 Reflecting on Family Support 26:22 Encountering the Ex 26:56 First Marriage Reflections 27:23 Failing at Living Up to Expectations 27:51 Struggles with Media and Comparisons 32:24 Body Image and Confidence 41:28 X Factor Challenges 50:19 Defining Success and Final Thoughts How to recover a broken heart - Elizabeth and Dannii answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code [howtofail] at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/howtofail ⛵ Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Studio Engineer: Mathias Torres Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices 1x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Hello there. Did you know that you can hear all of the things that my guests might have failed to divulge in the main episode by joining us in our subscriber community, Failing with Friends? It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location, or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner. Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there.

• 0:36Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step. And starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday,

• 1:18Elizabeth Day?

  go to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first.

• 1:33Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast where every week I ask a new guest about three times they failed and what they might have learnt along the way.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I've thought about packing it in many times. You fail at having good judgment, you've failed at marriage, I've failed at being able to financially support myself. It was just... It was one thing on top of the other.

• 1:55Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today has spent four decades in the public eye. Born and raised in Melbourne, the youngest of three children, she became obsessed with the idea of performing after seeing the movie Grease. By 10, she had joined the cast of the Australian TV show Young Talent Time. As a teenager, she signed a record deal and acted on Home and Away. In her early twenties, her debut album went gold in the UK. She went on to have nine top 10 singles, including Jump to the Beat and This Is It. Over the course of her music career, she spent over 200 weeks on the official UK chart, sold in excess of seven million records worldwide, and scored a record-breaking 19 number-one dance singles.

• 2:41Elizabeth Day?

  She was also one of the first bona fide pop stars to perform at London's GAY nightclub. And after a four-year stint as a judge on The X Factor UK, she now hosts her own queer dating shows, I Kissed a Boy and I Kissed a Girl, both on BBC Three and iPlayer. She is, of course, Dani Minogue, a woman The Guardian dubbed "Queen of the Gays" for her years of LGBTQIA+ allyship. When she performed jointly with her older sister Kylie at Sydney's Mardi Gras in 2023, The Independent called it "the equivalent of a solar eclipse for Aussies."

• 3:22Elizabeth Day?

  Asked in a recent interview with Diva Magazine what makes a good ally, Minogue replied, "Listening is the start. Let somebody tell their story." Dani Minogue, welcome to How to Fail.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Hi. It's so wild to be here.

• 3:38Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so happy to have you here, Queen of the Gays.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not sure about that, but I'll take it.

• 3:46Elizabeth Day?

  And I wanted to end on that quote because listening is so important, also for what I do. And I think that to be a true and genuine listener, you have to start from a place of no judgment. And I wonder whether part of your ability to listen and show up as an ally comes from knowing what it is to be judged yourself?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  I guess so, um, but I'm also just very interested in the people and their stories.

• 4:16Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of fun, a lot of camp, a lot of craziness, a lot of things I'm just really attracted to. But then there are parts where I feel like we could all, you know, be an ally and create a space where some heartbreak and hurt could be relieved.

• 4:38Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and that's why I Kissed a Boy, which is just coming back for its new season,

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 4:44Elizabeth Day?

  is so important because it is so camp and frothy and fun and brilliant, but there's this-

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I know you love reality.

• 4:53Elizabeth Day?

  You know I love it, yes. And it was such a perfect fusion of all the reality TV I love because there is also this really profound undercurrent. Because we are aware as viewers how far the journey has come and how far there is yet to go. And also so much of the personal experiences that those contestants have been through to get there. What's it like for you being the host?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  It's a joy and an honour, like it honestly is. There's so many of my friends that would literally push me down the stairs to be able to do this. So it's, it's great. And just to get to enjoy celebrating these people, which I feel like hasn't happened enough on TV. So I felt like there was distinct lack of these people being celebrated or having a chance to explore or pursue love. I'd seen so many dating shows for so many different other people and my friends had always said

• 6:01Speaker 01

  how representation on television is so important to be seen. Um, and how different their lives would have been if they'd seen themselves on TV growing up.

• 6:15Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. It's also revolutionary and I wonder if there's part of you that has always felt that instinct for-

• 6:26Elizabeth Day?

  Rebellion, would we call it that?

• 6:29Speaker 01

  I'm not afraid to stand up when it's needed. I'm not afraid to say something. And, and that's just always how I felt. Performing at GAY years ago, being the first performer and the, the last one to close their original venue, um, was an act of rebellion to everybody in the industry who had said, don't do that. It's going to be damaging to your career. And my career was all I had. I wasn't in a relationship. I'm on the other side of the world for my career.

• 7:02Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  But I just thought, I know who I am. And that's how I've always stepped forward. Just because somebody says something about you, it doesn't make, mean it's true. Performing at GAY was going to, um, I was warned that it would have, um, a very bad effect on my career because things would be said by journalists or inferred that I wouldn't be able to come back from because it was a different landscape of journalism back then. And there was no social media, no right of reply. And you couldn't ever say that what a journalist had said was wrong. You could say it wasn't true and nobody

• 7:47Speaker 01

  would listen to you. But you weren't allowed to say anything about a journalist or a publication.

• 7:53Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  So it was like you were really backed into a corner. But GAY is a place that I would like to hang out with people, people that I want to hang out with, listening to music that we all want to listen to and dance to. And it was about this celebration and being yourself. And what we say through I Kissed a Boy and I Kissed a Girl is be who you want to be and love who you want to love. And we've said that since season one. It's at the start of every show and we say it to the cast on and off camera. And it's the most important thing, but that's definitely been the theme that's run through my life.

• 8:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And because we're living through such a dark and challenging time now for the queer community, especially trans women and men, do you feel that it's an increasingly important part of your purpose in a way to, to do this show and to keep showing up in the ways that you do?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  There's a lot of focus on things that are bad, hard and frightening. And I think there needs to be a lot more space for celebration, for fun, for joy and for love. I always think, what can I possibly do? I'm just one person. What could I do? That can be helpful and that's amplify love.

• 9:16Elizabeth Day?

  I love that. What a great answer.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  It is so important.

• 9:23Elizabeth Day?

  It's a joy to watch for all of those reasons and more. Now, you are one of those very generous guests who has not just given me three failures. You've given me, I think, five and a half.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Well, I thought you could choose your favorites.

• 9:35Elizabeth Day?

  It is so sweet and generous of you. And actually, one of the things that you said to me was, you put it as one of your failures, but I beg to differ. Failing to be interesting on how to fail.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  I do listen to your podcast and the guests are incredible. Your incredible, your amount of research and the conversations flow. And then I had this, all these flutters of nerves, like, what if I don't fail hard enough or good enough or I'm not interesting enough?

• 10:06Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, well, I can tell how much thought you've put into your failures. Before we get on.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I am a nerd.

• 10:12Elizabeth Day?

  I love that. Nerd game recognizes nerd game.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yes. Research, sticky notes, labels, oh, the whole thing.

• 10:21Elizabeth Day?

  Before we get on to your failures, I just want to ask you a bit about that point you made about knowing yourself. And so knowing yourself first being the most important thing really, so that you can identify the truth of who you are, as opposed to what people might be saying about you. Where did that come from? Did that come from your parents and your upbringing?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  My mum was always really adamant that we speak up if there was something that wasn't right. And I think that's been really great for me in life. And especially as a girl. I was sometimes in situations where you're told to be nice or be quiet and I wouldn't. That was something.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  That has really given me strength and I think the rest is through experience.

• 11:20Elizabeth Day?

  Your first failure is failing to be a bimbo.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Elizabeth Day?

  There is a specific context to this.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Elizabeth Day?

  Tell us about it.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  So I auditioned for Home and Away and I was given this scene of a character Marilyn, who's become such a big part of the show. And Emily Simons ended up playing Marilyn and I cannot imagine anyone else playing Marilyn. And I failed so hard at, I couldn't even convince myself, I couldn't act. And so then I was thinking, I'm such a shit actor. But when I stepped back, I felt like it just wasn't right, it wasn't meant to be.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  I went away thinking, I've messed it up so badly, I have failed, I probably won't ever get a chance to audition again.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  And they came back to me and they said, we would like to write a character for you. And it was very interesting to me at the time because of what I was coming out of. Being on a family show, everything was squeaky clean and all smiles. And it was that place, that TV show that people turned on to escape everything. And it was just about joy.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And then I was given this character, Emma Jackson, who would just say the most horrible things, throw things at people, get into fights. I had no idea how to have a physical fight with someone, but I loved it all. It was just like coming out of this family show and just being the bad girl.

• 13:04Elizabeth Day?

  So the show that you're referring to, pre Home and Away, is the Young Talent Time.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, Talent Time.

• 13:09Elizabeth Day?

  Which is Australia's equivalent of the Mickey Mouse Club, would you put it like, yeah?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:12Elizabeth Day?

  Okay. So do you think the people who auditioned you for Home and Away saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself? Or did you know that that...

• 13:21Speaker 01

  I just think we all walked away and thought... That was terrible. And then somebody must have got creative and thought, I know how we can really make an impact here. Because within Australia, if we take this girl, nobody will have ever seen her like this. I was seventeen, I'd never lived away from home. And you've been to Australia, so I moved from Melbourne to Sydney. I had to get my driver's licence, a car, an apartment, and work out how to get to work on two different locations with the Gregories, which is an A to Z. Because there were no navigation tools or anything.

• 14:04Elizabeth Day?

  And you were living on your own?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  I lived with another girl because my parents were like, you're not going to Sydney at seventeen and living on your own. And the schedule was brutal, like leaving home at six o'clock in the morning, getting home at nine, ten at night, and then learning more scripts.

• 14:20Elizabeth Day?

  I read somewhere that you can't really remember a time before you were famous. Is that right?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  So I was famous all around Australia at ten because I'd stepped into this show. I'd done other work before then, so from seven to ten I'd worked. There were only around eight kids on the show at one time. And you stayed on the show for six years. There were only, I think, four channels back then. There was nothing else. And it was the biggest Saturday night show. So it was the equivalent of what X Factor was or Dancing with the Stars, you know, like something so super huge. And so once you stepped into that, everyone knew who you were. So, and you're famous. It's weird.

• 15:06Elizabeth Day?

  Fame was obviously different then, no social media.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 15:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And we didn't have paparazzi in Australia. So I could walk to school, even though I was like on this biggest TV show.

• 15:18Elizabeth Day?

  Did you enjoy it then? Did you enjoy being well known?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  I had great interactions with people, so we got lots of fan mail. And I still love the fan mail and I would reply, like now social media, you, you know, might DM someone or respond to something, but it was this beautiful interaction with people and I've always enjoyed that. I felt the camera like a very friendly place, like I could just look down into it. And from the fan mail, I, I could picture who was at the other side of that.

• 15:56Elizabeth Day?

  Do you still feel the camera is a friendly place?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes.

• 16:04Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 16:50Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Your second failure, we're fast forwarding somewhat in terms of years and chronology, but your second failure is failed marriage. You and I both, by the way, also a divorcee, but very grateful for that fact. And I'm a big believer that relationships aren't failures simply because they end, because they teach you something. But I'm so interested to hear about your experience of your failed marriage.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Now, I don't think it's a failure, but at the time that it ended, it, my world was very dark and bleak and I just, I couldn't get over how wrong I'd got this.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  That I was a bad judge of character and

• 17:55Speaker 01

  probably a couple of years after that was when I was really well aware of most people saw that coming and I didn't. So I was 23. I'd obviously lived a big, full life and I'd met a lot of people and I thought I'm pretty good at judging people, but love sweeps you off your feet and it's an incredible feeling. Um, and I really got swept away and did not see um, what it actually was. It should have just been something that was fun.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But when, to get married for me meant everything because my parents have had this long, full, happy marriage and that's what I wanted and that's what I thought I was gonna get.

• 18:52Elizabeth Day?

  You met your ex-husband on the set of Home and Away?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, you know, hunky and charming and um always a big energy walking into a room and made me feel fantastic.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Until he didn't.

• 19:12Elizabeth Day?

  And I hadn't realised this, but he was also someone who was incredibly well-connected with the sort of Australian elite politically.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yes, his father was Prime Minister and

• 19:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, but I, I knew him as an actor on Home and Away, so I didn't meet him in that world.

• 19:35Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  I wasn't exposed to that world. I'm still not. It's not my place. I had no intention of hanging out in that world. You know, his mother um, was very wary of me and

• 19:54Speaker 01

  She thought that I was wanting to be part of that world, whatever it was that I was going to take, take, take from them. And it was the furthest thing from the truth and not what I wanted at all. Um. So she made it very clear that I was not to be around and she didn't want me a part of anything. Yet Julian wanted me to be his wife and I knew that their relationship, there was, there was a lot had gone on and he loved and adored her, but they were not close in many ways. So

• 20:38Speaker 01

  it was a wild time.

• 20:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I mean, it was a lot to take on and that's how swept off my feet I was and thought that it could still work.

• 20:48Elizabeth Day?

  And so what did go wrong from your perspective?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Julian wanted to go to America and work. Uh. My work um was in London. And so I helped him set up in New York. He um got on a soap opera there. And I committed to travelling back and forth because we were married. Um. And each time I came back, there was just something not right. Things I saw in the apartment, how I felt, there were all people around that I didn't know. And he was just very, very distant and to the point that he called it off. But in the meantime, we'd run through all my money.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And um I still don't know if that's sort of what made him just say, all right, I'm out of here. I'm on to something else. I, I honestly don't know. He has never explained to me. But he knew what situation I was in. So he was financially on his feet, earning all of his money, keeping his money. And I was paying for everything. So I was not only personally absolutely.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Broken hearted, but I was broke. I had no money in the bank. Um, my family helped me out and then that was

• 22:17Speaker 01

  my job to heal my heart, to find some confidence in myself, not being so stupid at choosing people around me that were not there to support me and um, trying to get financially secure again. And being on the other side of the world from my family, that was really super hard. So that they were taking phone calls from me and I was just, it was just bleak. I was crying all the time, just absolutely devastated. But I can say now,

• 22:53Speaker 01

  I think we're two very different people. It wasn't right. I wish I had have seen that. So I will take responsibility for my part of that. I really wish I had seen that.

• 23:04Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry. That sounds so devastating, especially because you're still only in your mid twenties at this stage, I'm guessing.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:13Elizabeth Day?

  And I completely relate to that feeling of, oh, do I not have good judgment? It's awful.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you fail at having good judgment. You failed at marriage. I failed at being able to financially support myself. It was just, it was one thing on top of the other.

• 23:30Elizabeth Day?

  And you were in London then pursuing your music career, is that right?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:34Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  And TV, like I was doing.

• 23:37Elizabeth Day?

  And how long were you married for?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  It was like a year and a half together and then it's a while after that before it's actually finalized legally. Yeah. So it wasn't long. We were both young, but we'd, we'd both lived big lives. So I think we thought we knew what we were doing. At least I can say that for me.

• 24:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Do you think it was harder for you to forgive him or to forgive yourself?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Harder to forgive myself because I feel like I not only embarrassed myself, but I embarrassed my family as well.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  And that now they had to look after me. And that's not how I want our relationship to be. I want us to support each other, but not have to look after me and pick up the pieces.

• 24:29Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And I knew how hard that was for my parents being on the other side of the world.

• 24:36Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And has that part healed now? Do you feel more self compassion and less humiliation and?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like it gave me the tools, like it gives you a toolbox. I don't want to be that person that makes those mistakes. So I will really try to look out for those things.

• 24:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Did it make it harder for you to trust future romantic partners?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:04Elizabeth Day?

  Ditto. I mean, I post divorce had to go through a few like duff ones

• 25:10Elizabeth Day?

  before finally learning the lesson.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it takes some time, but it's nice to be able to look back now. I'm with a gorgeous partner and I absolutely love him.

• 25:24Elizabeth Day?

  And how difficult was it for you to become financially stable again?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Well, I was lucky because my family loaned me money until I got back on my feet. The hard thing for me was that I'd worked

• 25:40Speaker 01

  for so many years already, I should have been at that position where I could pick and choose stuff. Now I couldn't with anything. So that was, that was difficult, but I'm one of the lucky ones that I was, I was able to have family that could help me out until I could get back on my feet.

• 26:00Elizabeth Day?

  I know your parents are really private, so I don't want to be intrusive, but I'd love to know a little bit more about them and who they are, how, how they are as parents. You know, having created this extraordinary family of Minogues.

• 26:16Elizabeth Day?

  Who are they and how are they?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  They're very shy. They don't like media or spotlight. My brother's the same. They're very supportive and very grounding.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  I think we're very honest with each other and whether you call on each other's support every day, but knowing it's there is such a huge thing.

• 26:40Elizabeth Day?

  Do they think it's quite weird that you and your sister are global superstars?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  They, I think, probably initially tried to talk us out of it.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  And we're very scared of it and rightly so, like it's a lot. And I think what we didn't see, because we were so young, is that it affects the whole family, especially what I did. When Kylie really started working neighbours, she was that bit older and when I started I was so young and we didn't have any of the support like the American kids in Mickey Mouse Club had. We didn't have people looking after us to drive us to school. We didn't have people looking after us to help us with our homework. That was all on our parents.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  So my parents with three kids and our workload was five days a week at rehearsals after school and then all day Saturday from like nine till nine. That's a lot.

• 27:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I think of it now as a mum of one son.

• 27:54Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  And I'm driving him to all of his basketball stuff and I just think, I don't even know where, when you cooked meals or did that, because we were always like in a car travelling to some rehearsal that we had to do.

• 28:09Elizabeth Day?

  But they did it, even if they didn't understand it, they did it.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  They did it, they're so supportive.

• 28:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Have you ever run into your ex-husband or his family since divorcing?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  No, I haven't. No, we've never had a conversation about it.

• 28:27Elizabeth Day?

  Would you like to?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  I don't know how helpful it would be because I don't trust how truthful what I hear will be. Maybe it is, but I've done the work on myself and I'm in a place where I'm happy. And I just, yeah, I just don't know how helpful it would be.

• 28:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I look back on my first marriage, my ex-husband, and it feels like it belongs to a totally different lifetime.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Different person.

• 28:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:00Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so grateful that that's not me anymore.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yes. And I guess you need that experience to move on to what, you know, who you're going to become.

• 29:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  It's an important experience, but tough.

• 29:17Speaker 02

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• 30:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, so normally at this stage I would say your final failure, but it's not with you because of such a generous guest. But it's a big one and I'm so, so grateful that you're going to talk about it. And as you put it, it's failing at living up to expectations. Specifically where your sister is concerned or where the media perception of your relationship with your sister is concerned. So please tell us about this and from your perspective and why you chose to talk about it.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Enough time has passed and the times have changed. So, like I was saying before, you could never complain about anything back in the day and things that were written that weren't true. And nobody would listen to you if you said that it wasn't true or that it was stressing you out or hurting you. There was no conversations about mental health. And there was certainly, if you were in entertainment, you couldn't say anything about it because you're lucky to do what you do and why are you complaining about that? But times have changed now. I think with social media, everybody's a part of this

• 31:29Speaker 01

  because everything you do gets commented on. So it was definitely hard. I moved to London in 1991. Kylie was so famous here, from Neighbours to all of her music with P W L. We were watching news articles back in Australia and it was like The Beatles. It was like these cars surrounded by screaming fans and it was wild. And she would come home and we would be like, oh my gosh, what is this like? Tell us about it. What's London like? And it just was absolutely crazy.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And I moved over. Obviously, the audience knew me in England as Kylie's sister, sure. And coming from a soap opera, so didn't know that I've spent my whole life singing and dancing on a TV show in Australia. So there was comparisons to my sister, very unfavorable for me. And there was so many comments pitting us against each other because that's what was done back then. You'd pit women against women because it sold newspapers. And then there were so many comments that were just like,

• 32:55Speaker 01

  you've started singing because your sister sings. And it didn't matter how many times I answered this question saying, no, I've actually done.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  People didn't even want to hear the answer. So it was tough coming from this childhood of being celebrated for who I was to being in teenage years, because I was nineteen when I came over, and trying to be comfortable with myself and my body and what lots of kids talk about on social media now. But the headlines were absolutely brutal. But if I looked at what I was doing, it was like, I'm living this exciting life. I'm in London, I'm doing what I want to do. And I feel like if we're not comparing these sisters, I'm having a pretty successful career.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  And I don't know where it's going to go from here. But every day I had to wake up to all of these comments. And I definitely know now that if I hadn't been as strong as I was,

• 34:09Speaker 01

  it would have been very bad.

• 34:11Elizabeth Day?

  In what way?

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I just, I hit low points where I just thought, I can't, I can't take this anymore. It's just horrible. It's just so horrible, the comments. And I felt like I couldn't say anything and I was just so trapped. Part of me wanted to run back to Australia, but the other part of me didn't. I loved being in London. This is where I wanted to be. And I never saw that things would ever change. It was just so many things back then. It was like, you never saw women who were older, like releasing music and celebrated in film and TV. So it was definitely an age where you knew you were going to be discarded. That was probably around thirty.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  People talked about being thirty like your life is going to end if you are in entertainment. And so I felt like if I run away from this now, I don't have that much longer. This is my time to do this.

• 35:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. And you mentioned there, the waking up every single day to the comments and the headlines. You said in your email to me that it wasn't just about the comparison with music, it was also body comparisons too.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:33Elizabeth Day?

  And for anyone who didn't live through them, it's quite difficult to convey what the nineties were like for women, let alone women in the public eye who are being compared to their sister.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so magazines controlled what beauty was and that there was just a handful of models who were on magazines who are beautiful women.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  But nobody was celebrated if you were different from that. So there was that. And then in the music industry, there was a tight control on what artists would release music. You have to look like a pop star. And very, very nasty comparisons to two girls who were sisters who were born with very different body shapes. We've always just been different.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  My sister having a better career and being the exact shape of what is beauty. And what can be on magazines and what everyone can talk about as being beautiful, and I'm not. And it would, you know, it's

• 36:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It's pretty full on when you're young and you're just being told this over and over and over again. And I just had to get up in the morning and say, am I happy with myself?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  If all of that wasn't there, if all that noise wasn't there, am I happy with myself? And the answer was always yes. But years later was like really shook me and

• 37:21Speaker 01

  once I'd got through kind of an awkward late teenage stage of my body changing shape.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  And then I was into being an adult. My weight had stabilized and my work was keeping my body in this very toned shape because I was dancing and performing and doing gigs all the time. I was really nervous at photo shoots. They're the only cameras I've ever been scared of was still photography. Cause I thought they can see into my eyes of how scared I am. And I look at these photos now. There's not an inch of fat on me and I would be constantly asking, but do I look fat in this? Is this okay? That angle, we can't shoot at that angle. I mean, I, I was like kind of a racehorse at the time.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  My body was so toned, you could shoot it from every angle. But it was this delayed thing in my brain that I, I, I was a very different size to what I was. It's really weird because I'm, I'm happy with my body at all different sizes and shapes. I'm happy with it now, but I'm, but I think when I was at my most like athletic, were, you know, they were those pivotal years where I was really not confident, very, very scared of cameras.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  And the thing that turned it around was actually when I was pregnant and my body started to change. You know, size, shape, I've got a baby bump and I loved everything about it. And I'd never felt so beautiful. And that was real, really the turning around where I could look into a camera and just go, wow, look at what this body has done. And I feel like I've taken that confidence forward with me. I think for almost any woman I know who grew up in the nineties, came of age then.

• 39:38Elizabeth Day?

  As much as we might like to project an image of body confidence, I think, and I include myself in this, all of us have a trigger point that that's that provokes disordered thinking about eating. Even if it's not disordered eating, there's for so many of us just that thought process. And it's come up for me recently because of the prevalence of weight loss jams. And I know I am strong, I do not need weight loss jams. And yet, because I came of age in this particular time, and I wasn't famous in any way, shape or form, I'm thinking I should be thinner. There's part of me that will always think that. And I'm ashamed.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 40:23Elizabeth Day?

  Of admitting that. And I I just want to pay tribute to how resilient you clearly were during that time, not to let it undo you.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's I I don't know how I did it with some kind of mental gymnastics. I think I I have that, but not through eating or wanting to be thinner. But definitely with clothing and dressing.

• 40:52Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  I want it to be flattering. It has to be flattering.

• 40:57Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel beautiful now? Such an awkward question, sorry. I mean, for the avoidance of doubt, you're utterly gorgeous, beautiful, all of those things. But do you feel it?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I do most of the time. I can wake up feeling a wreck. I know that if I put in a bit of effort, it's I'm happier with myself. But I also love those days of just being ugly, feeling like a mess, and being in the worst tracksuit and just really wallowing in that.

• 41:33Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, embrace it.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  I like all of the, like, I love the heels and the getting dressed up.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  But that, I, I think if you can love yourself when you're a mess is when you really love yourself. And I, I truly say that I, I can.

• 41:51Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. Going back to this constant comparison that you had to withstand with Kylie in the nineties, all the tabloids all over it all the time. Did you ever have a conversation with Kylie about it? Because I imagine it's very difficult as siblings who love each other but are being pitted against each other to have that kind of honest conversation.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  We did. Not a lot because we didn't want to bring in, we didn't want that to take up the time that we spent together. It was definitely acknowledged and

• 42:30Speaker 01

  yes, it needed to be voiced, but also Kylie couldn't do anything about it. And she loves me. I'm her little sister and she loves me. So definitely acknowledged and there was nothing we could do about it.

• 42:50Elizabeth Day?

  Did it ever get into your head to an extent where you did feel jealous?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  I think that it was just the frustration of I have done my own things and nobody sees that. And even if I explain it, nobody cares. I didn't have to have what she had.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  But I've always wanted to be recognised for what I have done.

• 43:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Thank you for talking about that because although not everyone can relate to global superstardom, I think so many people can relate to the complexity of a sibling relationship that is founded on this extraordinary love and acceptance. But it's also a tricky thing to navigate sometimes.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Hmm. It is really tricky to navigate. It's really hard in the public and it's, you know, we're just, we're so happy that times have changed, that, you know, mental health is such a priority for everyone now and that it's talked about openly. So you can actually say.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  It was hard. And so now felt like the time and the place to be here.

• 44:18Speaker 06

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• 44:48Elizabeth Day?

  Onto the next one because it's kind of related. And we were chatting before we started recording because I revisited some of the things that you went through at the height of your X Factor fame. And I could not believe the savagery. And again, that was something that I witnessed as a viewer and I didn't think to question it then in the way that I do now. So I want to preface this failure by saying, I'm so sorry that I didn't see it for what it was at the time because I'm horrified by what we all accepted. Your fourth failure, as you have humorously put it, is your failure to impress Noell Gallagher. And why did you choose this?

• 45:32Elizabeth Day?

  How did you fail to impress him?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Oh, when I was on X Factor, there were comments from a lot of people that were negative to me. What is she doing there? Why is she a part of this show? And I'd always said from the beginning, I'm with you. I do not know what I'm doing here on this panel because I was happily watching this show at home. Loving the judges and I've had that moment like, how did I get here? But I really wanted to be a part of these people, like getting to audition and and being a part of this industry.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  And I felt like, hey, maybe I can offer something different rather than trying to be the same. And but Noel had thrown in some comments um that was so incredibly nasty. And I remember thinking, I can't believe you even know who I am, that you even care enough to even say anything. The weird thing is, he hasn't stopped. It's gone on and on.

• 46:43Elizabeth Day?

  But still.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yes, since X Factor, he's brought it up about, you know, how talentless and sort of insignificant, all of this kind of. And I'm like, I don't know why that bothers you.

• 46:58Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I'll tell you why. It's projection. It's the sibling thing. It's he can't cope being eclipsed by Liam, probably. But I mean.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. I just.

• 47:09Elizabeth Day?

  It's probably that he fancies you as well.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  I felt like, I still don't know why, but it fascinates me.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  And then there was kind of, there was a pile on Sharon Osbourne, um Graham Norton, there were.

• 47:25Elizabeth Day?

  This was the thing, sorry to interrupt, but this is what really shocked me, that I went back and rewatched The Graham Norton Show with Sharon Osbourne. It was, I'm so sorry, it was so awful.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  It is.

• 47:37Elizabeth Day?

  And Graham sets it up. He's really rude about you and I'm, I just totally forgotten that that even happened.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  I think the difference was it wasn't being rude. It was, there were, there had to be production meetings to set up the things that they were doing on set in this show. And these huge personalities that I looked up to and just loved what they had done. I loved Sharon Osbourne on X Factor. I love her on the Osbournes. I love what Graham Norton was doing. And here were these people just tearing me to pieces. That show would never be made today.

• 48:20Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  At the time, people didn't realise how wild it was. And I remember going home and having to sit and watch it. So that I knew what had happened. And I could not believe my eyes. It's not just the people who are in front of the camera. It's the people who are behind the cameras. Everyone that worked to create that. It is absolutely wild. So there was definitely, I think, something that had been building from me moving to England. And like, you're Kylie's sister, but you're not as good.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  And just like, it is so free for all and everybody can just pile on her. Because that's just, she's easy target. This is so easy. And we will eventually win. And there was a moment in X Factor where I just felt so, so crushed by the industry. So I could even, you know, not just be pinning it on certain people, just the, the industry. I was just like, I burst into tears on the show. Um, I knew that I was just going to have to walk off set.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  And I'm, all these things are going through my mind, like, you have worked so many years. You've been through so many incredibly hard things, but this has got you. And, um, I didn't wanna let down the people that I was mentoring and working with. But everyone's got their breaking point. And so I just was like, I can't, I just, thank you, everyone. Good night. You've all won. You've all won. And there was some seismic shift that happened. Where I feel like the viewer was like.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Waking up to what was happening.

• 50:27Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. Cause just to put it into context, if you weren't around or if you can't remember it, or if like me, you maybe blanked it out and you'll be appalled what you put up with when that was deemed light entertainment. You were bullied on a national scale. Your appearance was denigrated, your talent was undermined, you were insulted and it was seen as.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  And then that was backed up by.

• 50:57Elizabeth Day?

  The industry.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Tabloids and.

• 50:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, yeah. So during that time, did you have any protection? Was anyone?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  My close friends and, and management and publicist. When I eventually was like, I need to, to have someone to look after me. Um, and that's been fantastic. That's been a game changer. So, um, and I think there's been enough time and space that we can all look at it and say, isn't it great? We've moved on from there, that it's not like that anymore. And hopefully a lot of people have learnt from that. I do feel like it is so great to be a part of change.

• 51:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  In TV. And this is why I'm so passionate about the show that I'm doing now. Always keep learning. I'm always learning all the time. Like, I'm not saying I know everything, but at least try.

• 52:01Elizabeth Day?

  Have any of those individuals ever apologised to you?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  None of them. No.

• 52:10Elizabeth Day?

  Well, it is a testament to your strength that you are sitting here.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  I think there's a common theme that nobody's.

• 52:17Elizabeth Day?

  Nobody's apologised to Danny Minogue. Maybe it's because, well, he wants to give them credit, but it's like, I think your strength is so apparent that maybe it's intimidating.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Probably not intimidating. Probably people think it wasn't as bad as it was, or it didn't affect her.

• 52:39Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  It did.

• 52:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  But yeah, there was definitely a point where I thought. I'm stepping off this train.

• 52:48Elizabeth Day?

  And you won with Matt Cardle, who beat One Direction. Let's not forget.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 52:54Elizabeth Day?

  Um, what would you say if your son Ethan, who is now thirteen?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Fourteen.

• 53:00Elizabeth Day?

  Fourteen, if he said, I want to go into TV, I want to act and sing. Maybe he has.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  No, he hasn't. I honestly don't know how I feel. I just. You know, at the moment, he's, he's, he's looking from the peripheral. I mean, it's been so much he's learnt from. You know, being a kid, being chased by paparazzi, not knowing who these scary men were as we're trying to get to school. Up until now, sort of understanding so much more about it. It may happen. I just think that's not something that he wants to pursue.

• 53:38Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. Looking back over your failures and your learnings. What do you think success means to you now? How would you define it?

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Happiness, really being clear about what happiness is to you and in the different stages of you. So like we were saying, like if we look back on, you know, when we were married, like it can feel like a different person. Just being true to what, what brings you joy. Um, and stepping into that and away from stuff that doesn't.

• 54:20Elizabeth Day?

  Final question. Do you ever do karaoke with Kylie Minogue? The two of you, the Minogue sisters.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  No, we don't do karaoke. I mean, we like still jump around and sing to things at home, but not like go to a karaoke place.

• 54:38Elizabeth Day?

  I think you should.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  I do think we should.

• 54:40Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I think you totally should. And I think you should do exclusively Minogue Sister songs.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Really?

• 54:45Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. It would be so fun.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Do you do karaoke?

• 54:50Elizabeth Day?

  I love karaoke.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  What's your song?

• 54:52Elizabeth Day?

  And I can't sing. Um, so my song is actually a rap track. It's Skilos, I Wish.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 54:59Elizabeth Day?

  But, oh, actually, the one track I do like to sing, because I think it's in my range, is Crowded House, Fall at Your Feet. It's another Australian.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think when you come do your next show in Australia,

• 55:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I think everybody would love to see you perform that.

• 55:14Elizabeth Day?

  I thought you were going to say, I will invite you to do karaoke with my sister. And I'd be like, yes, 100%.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. I can probably make that happen too.

• 55:22Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my gosh, can you? Thank you so much. No, but in all seriousness, thank you so much on so many levels. Thank you for giving what you give.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Thanks for having so many fails.

• 55:33Elizabeth Day?

  No. They're learnings. It's data acquisition. Thank you for giving so much to this podcast. I really appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability. And it has just been such a joy talking to you.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 55:48Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.