Pod Insights How To Fail With Elizabeth Day Christine McGuinness - ‘I don’t want to hold back anymore - I date women! So what?’ About this episode TW: discussions around anorexia and sexual abuse.
In an incredibly powerful episode (and a How To Fail first), Christine McGuinness speaks publicly about her sexuality for the first time. She reveals she had a long-term relationship with a woman before her marriage to comedian Paddy McGuinness and that she’s now dating women again. She refuses to label her sexuality - as she puts it: ‘I want love for me’. What an honour to be part of Christine’s journey to live her truth!
You will already know Christine as a TV personality, author, businesswoman and prominent autism advocate. The mother of three autistic children, she has made critically acclaimed documentaries including Our Family and Autism, with her then-husband, as well as penning a series of autism-inclusive children’s books and launching a range of sensory-positive clothing.
Despite serious adversity (her father was a heroin addict, she endured bullying at school and suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a family member), Christine is a total inspiration and has achieved so much.
She’s about to launch her first podcast, Situationships, in which she and her co-host Sophie Gravia delve into listeners’ dating and relationship dilemmas.
✨ IN THIS EPISODE:
00:00 Intro
00:52 An Inspiring Journey
02:30 Challenges and Triumphs of Motherhood
05:01 Raising Neurodivergent Children
08:03 The Importance of Asking for Help
12:52 Reflecting on Childhood and Autism
20:23 The Journey of Self-Discovery
23:41 Navigating Public Attention
24:35 Discussing Divorce and Public Perception
26:07 Challenges of Sexuality in the Public Eye
28:09 Living Authentically
31:13 Reflections on Relationships
41:40 Friendship and Trust Issues
43:28 Motherhood and Personal Growth
45:47 Concluding Thoughts and Future Hopes
Elizabeth and Christine answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content
Have something to share of your own? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com
All episodes in June are brought to you by @arlalactoFREE - all the taste, easier to digest. Listen to our bonus episode brought to by ArlaLactoFREE with Vicky Pattison here: https://link.chtbl.com/VickyPattison
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Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan
Mix Engineer: Matias Torres
Studio Engineer: Gulliver Tickell
Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali
Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot
Executive Producer: Carly Maile
How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Elizabeth Day? How to Fail is proudly partnering with Aala Lacto Free through June. Delicious dairy with all the taste, none of the lactose.
0:17 Elizabeth Day? Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. Now, if you're a regular listener, welcome back. And if you're new around here, this is the podcast that thinks that failure is not the end, just a beginning to a different kind of story.
0:31 Speaker 01 A lot of people think that if a marriage ends, that it's failed. And I don't believe that at all.
0:37 Elizabeth Day? Totally agree.
0:38 Speaker 01 I don't think anyone in the public eye or not should ever really ever have to explain who they're spending time with if they're an adult.
0:45 Elizabeth Day? Do you feel safer with women?
0:47 Speaker 01 Yes, I do, definitely.
0:51 Elizabeth Day? One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step. And starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail
1:36 Elizabeth Day? to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first.
1:49 Elizabeth Day? Christine McGuinness is a TV personality, author, businesswoman and prominent autism advocate. The mother of three autistic children, she credits her kids with having helped her seek out her own diagnosis at the age of 33. In the four years since, she has made critically acclaimed documentaries, including Our Family and Autism, with her then-husband, the comedian Paddy McGuinness, as well as penning a series of autism-inclusive children's books and launching a range of sensory positive clothing.
2:22 Elizabeth Day? McGuinness's journey is an inspiring one, given her challenging childhood. Her father was a heroin addict. Her mother left him when she discovered baby Christine crawling over his syringes. McGuinness was bullied at school and suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a family member. She developed an eating disorder and turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Her way out was beauty pageants and her modeling career led to her meeting her future husband, although the couple are now divorced, and eventually to a two-year stint on The Real Housewives of Cheshire. This month, she's launching her first podcast, Situationships, in which she and her co-host,
3:05 Elizabeth Day? Sophie Gravia, delve into listeners' dating and relationship dilemmas, as well as lifting the lid on their own private lives. "Each of my failures has shaped who I am today in powerful ways," McGuinness says. While they've brought challenges, they've also brought self-discovery, resilience and growth. Christine McGuinness, welcome to How to Fail.
3:29 Speaker 01 Thank you so much for that. That was amazing, that intro.
3:32 Elizabeth Day? You're amazing and I'm so delighted to have you sitting here. And it's the first time I have ended on a quote that was written to me in an email as part of your failures, because we were saying before we started recording, I was saying how beautifully you write and you were saying that you find it easier to express yourself.
3:51 Speaker 01 I do. I've always struggled to verbalise my emotions and my thoughts, but writing them down, I'm quite good at. I think I can get more clarity when I'm writing. I can take more time to really process what I'm thinking and what I want to say. When I'm talking about my experiences, I never want them to come across in a negative way. So it was important for me to write it to you that I've gained a lot of positives from my failures and it's not something that I'm a victim of, it's something that I've gained a lot of strength from.
4:22 Elizabeth Day? That's amazing and it's exactly the premise of this podcast. We wouldn't be who we were without the things that had gone wrong as well as the things that have gone right.
4:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:31 Elizabeth Day? Now, you called your memoir A Beautiful Nightmare, because you also say that "out of every nightmare, something beautiful comes." And one of the ways that you say that's informed you is that your childhood, which we heard a bit there, was Really difficult by any measure, has informed your parenting now, is that right?
4:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely. I think from my childhood, it made me realise what I wanted for my children. And that I wanted them to have so much more life experience. I wanted them to have so much more love. I wanted them to have that continuity and a strong family. And that was really, really important to me. Probably because I didn't have that. My mum was incredible. My mum was a single mum. But she struggled. She had three little kids and she struggled financially. She struggled with her time and to give all of us the attention what we needed. That was something positive that I took from a negative experience, knowing that when I had children, I wanted to make sure that I was secure enough, that I could be around at home.
5:35 Speaker 01 And I did. And I absolutely loved it and embraced it for the first five or six years of having my children. I was a full time stay at home mum by choice. That's what I wanted. I wanted to be there for all of the first milestones. And I wanted to make sure that I was secure enough before I had children, that I could do that. And I did. I absolutely loved it.
5:56 Elizabeth Day? Hmm. You've got three children, two of them are twins.
6:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:01 Elizabeth Day? And all three of your children are neurodivergent.
6:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:05 Elizabeth Day? And I wonder if the twins in particular have a special relationship. Because I've been learning so much about autism recently, about how so many autistic people are so incredibly clever that they can communicate telepathically without words.
6:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:22 Elizabeth Day? And I wonder if your twins have that, because twins are meant to be renowned for that kind of relationship too.
6:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's definitely a bond between them and it's very much an unspoken bond. Like, it's just there, it just exists. They feel when one of them isn't in the house. And it's been from when they were very, very little. I remember trying to settle them into school. And obviously they're in, they're in the same year, they're in the same class. And whenever one of them would go to the toilet, the other one would be really, really upset to where they would just end up going together. And it's took years to get to the point. Of them being calm if one of them wants to go and do an extra activity outside of school and one of them stays in. But they're okay with it. They need some reassurance, but they must feel almost like their other half.
7:08 Elizabeth Day? Hmm.
7:08 Speaker 01 Is gone. They shared a womb.
7:10 Elizabeth Day? Yeah.
7:10 Speaker 01 They shared a room for years and it was only when the youngest came along that. I kind of went, okay, everyone's waking each other up. I need to try and separate them and separating them was was hard, but. They're just so, so close, but all three of them are just gorgeous. The the relationship that they've got is incredible.
7:27 Elizabeth Day? Before we get on to your failures, I'm very interested in the fact that you you are in a household where you're all autistic. And how does that manifest itself? What what strategies do you have in place to make life more easeful for each of your family members?
7:45 Speaker 01 Try and plan ahead. I use visual planners a lot. I have a calendar that. I believe I write down, you know, what time mummies leaving or coming back, or I'll put. Pictures on if there's a visitor that they're not quite familiar with. It might be a family member, a distant family member that pops over once a year. To remind them of of who they are, what they look like and when they're coming. If we're ever visiting anywhere new, even if it's a park or if I'm going abroad and it's to a hotel. I'll make picture books to help them understand where we're going and just to take away that anxiety because they do. Get quite nervous still about going out. So that's how I I manage it in a way that I do things for myself. I do for the kids and I didn't realise that.
8:31 Speaker 01 I was looking after myself in an autism friendly way. When I used to go to places for filming on different location. I would always research where I was going and how long it's going to take me to get there and what the temperature's like. And I would literally look at. What colour the wallpaper was in a hotel room I was staying in because I wanted to know what it looked like before I got there. And I've always done that for myself, not knowing that it's quite an autistic thing to do. So I do the same for my children.
8:58 Elizabeth Day? You're such a great parent. Okay, your first failure is your failure to ask for help. You describe yourself as a people pleaser and a perfectionist.
9:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:09 Elizabeth Day? When do you think you realise that about yourself?
9:13 Speaker 01 Probably when I had the twins, I just insisted on doing everything. And it's one of them things I love about myself because it's given me a lot of independence and I can juggle an awful lot before it gets on top of me. But there are times where I should have asked for help because it was affecting me and my own health. And I think that's where you've kind of got to draw the line. And, you know, I haven't got an ego. I need to just kind of go, okay, it doesn't, it's fine asking for help. It's not, it's not a bad thing. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're failing. It's just being self-aware and going, you know what, this is too much. Can anyone please just come and help me out for a couple of hours because I'm struggling. And I think
9:55 Speaker 01 being vulnerable like that is actually a strength. But I didn't learn that lesson until I was absolutely exhausted, up all night, looking after babies all day, every day. We all know what it's like as mums, the nappies, the bottles, the food, the appointments. And I kind of just got on with it and done with it and didn't ask for help when inside I was really struggling and just needed a pair of extra hands now and again.
10:21 Elizabeth Day? Who was the first person you asked for help?
10:24 Speaker 01 My mum. My mum got really, really involved with the children when they were around three. It was when I had my third one. I'd never left the twins. I didn't know that they were autistic at the time. They were three years old. They were non-verbal. They didn't eat solid food. They were really sensory to any noise, if the doorbell rang, if the coffee machine was turned on. They had no eye contact. It was like they just wasn't aware of anyone or anything around them. They were just very much in their own little world and in their own little bubble. And now I understand autism. It was very obvious. But then, I just love them. I just, I just love these little toddlers that were running about and I loved how much
11:08 Speaker 01 they were in their own little world. So I didn't see it as this something different with my children. And when I was pregnant, obviously, I had to go and give birth at some point. And I'd never ever had a minute away from my twins. So my mum came over to look after them whilst I went and I had a C-section with, with my third one. And it was the first time I'd had a night away from the twins. And I had to stay in hospital for a couple of days because Felicity was taken into, into the intensive care baby unit.
11:42 Speaker 01 And that wasn't, obviously wasn't planned and I wasn't prepared for that. I, I asked my mum to come and babysit for one night for me. And she ended up there for three nights. And it was kind of
11:55 Speaker 01 a, a moment where I accepted that I needed to just be at the hospital. And I needed to recover myself with my C-section and I needed to be close to my newborn baby who was in intensive care. And I had to just hand over the twins to my mum and, and accept the help.
12:13 Elizabeth Day? Yeah, well, I was thinking as you were talking that for you to get to that level of crisis point shows how unbelievably strong you are. Because most people would have been undone years earlier. And I think that it's so brave to acknowledge when you need someone's help. And that vulnerability allows other people to connect and feel close to you. And I wonder whether part of you feeling you couldn't ask for help dated from your own childhood and feeling like you, you, you you kind of, you, you couldn't say a lot of the things that were going on or you had to control a lot of what was going on. And not tell your mum because maybe you didn't want to worry her.
12:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I understand that now, especially the last couple of years. I've spent a lot of time working on myself and trying to understand other people as well as myself and how our mind works. And I completely agree. I understand that if your childhood has been difficult or challenging in any way, you're more likely to be a very independent, strong, quite resilient adult when you're older. So being aware of that has also made it easier for me to ask for help now and again. Because I know sometimes when I'm juggling too much, I'm doing that because it's almost learnt behaviour from childhood. It's not absolutely necessary. If now and again I just say, mum, do you mind just having the kids for me for one night?
13:39 Speaker 01 Because, you know, going up and down is too much for me. Like, that's okay. I haven't got a problem in, in doing that now. Although I don't like to do it too much.
13:49 Elizabeth Day? I wonder whether now that you're a mother and you understand your own autism diagnosis, has it made you reflect on your childhood differently? Like, can you see elements of your children in the child you were?
14:03 Speaker 01 My children are mini me's. It's amazing. And when you get diagnosed, especially a late diagnosis, I think people assume that you're instantly gonna go, oh, great, I've got all of the answers. And it's like a light bulb of this is amazing. And now I can start a whole life and be my authentic self. And I think that's what people want and expect when you get a late diagnosis. But actually, before you get to that point, you've got a lot of unpicking to do. And you can't help but think back to experiences of when you were younger and wonder if it would have been different if I was diagnosed earlier. Would I have spoken up and used my voice a lot more? Because I never did. I was very quiet up until I got diagnosed.
14:46 Speaker 01 And even in the last few years, it's took me a while to be as vocal as I am. And I still am quite quiet and I hold a lot in. But with some of the stuff I experienced when I was younger, I do wonder if I'd have known or if other people around me, like my mum, would have known, would they have treated me differently to get me to open up more and to be able to say things that were going on or where I was struggling. Even at school, where I wouldn't go into the school canteen, it led me to have an eating disorder. That wasn't because I didn't want to eat, but I couldn't verbalise that at the time. I went to the doctors and he kind of just said to my mum, well, you know, she's a teenage girl. And obviously, she's just got anorexia because she probably just wants to be slim.
15:30 Speaker 01 And I should have really then said, no, actually, I'm really struggling in the canteen. I can't cope with the noise. I can't cope with the queuing up, with the smell of all of the food. The menu's different every single day, so I don't know what I'm getting when I get there. Then I'm panicking about making a decision on what I want because there's a queue of people behind me. So instead of me doing that every day at school, I went once, realised how much I couldn't bear it, and then stopped eating for years at school. And that's something that I think if it was known that I was autistic then, then maybe that wouldn't have happened.
16:08 Elizabeth Day? I want to say how sorry I am for what happened to you when you were a kid and how resilient you must have been to get through all of that. And I'm very aware that my asking about it might be upsetting for you. So I also don't want to intrude.
16:23 Speaker 01 It's okay. I wouldn't, I've spoke about a lot of this stuff before. And if I wasn't ready to, I wouldn't have. I never spoke about anything until I wrote my autobiography. I didn't mention a lot of stuff like, like the sexual abuse, like eating disorder, um, the drinking as a teenager. I would always kind of play it down and dismiss everything as, you know, oh yeah, I was a fussy eater or I didn't like socializing. But really, actually, they were big challenges that I dealt with as a child. And I think accepting it and being able to talk about it is the best way that I can help myself. So again, from that failure, I've learnt from it. And now I help others and I talk about it. I help my children. I'm very aware.
17:08 Elizabeth Day? One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable
17:51 Elizabeth Day? so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. If you could give any advice to a young girl like you, who is going through a really tough time at school, who's being bullied as you were, who perhaps is being targeted in some way by an unscrupulous family member, what would you say to her?
18:26 Speaker 01 First of all, it's not you. It's not you, you don't deserve it. It's not kind, it's not nice, but it's nothing that you have done. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is kind. And we're gonna come across people like that for the rest of our lives. But certainly when you're young and you're struggling to deal with it, please speak to someone. If you don't want to speak to someone, if you can't, because I didn't, find a way to let somebody know, whether it's writing it down on a text message or if it's writing it down on a piece of paper. That's how I communicate with my eldest daughter sometimes if she's too emotional to explain what's going on. And another thing I think I've learned, again, just dealing with my own children, when they're struggling to open up and communicate,
19:14 Speaker 01 I like to let them know that this is a safe place. And if they don't want to talk about it, they let me know that this is just an output. So some of our conversations that we have, we're allowed to say, I just wanna let you know about this, I don't want your opinion, I don't want a conversation. It's just, it's just an output, I don't need any input. Especially with being bullied, I think the person who's being bullied can often feel quite embarrassed. That's how I was, I was really, really embarrassed. I didn't want to tell anybody at all. So I would keep it quiet and suffer in silence and I would wear a smile every day. When, when really I needed, I needed help or I needed it like solving or something.
19:59 Speaker 01 I ended up leaving school at 14. And it's one of them things that I look back at and I wonder, not, not just if, if I wasn't bullied, but if, if people at school would have known that I was autistic and ADHD, then maybe I could have been given that extra support to help me stay at school, to help me feel safe and to help me feel understood. Instead, I was just skipping school as much as I could until it got to the point where we were called into school, me and my mum, and it was kind of like, you know, we, we all wanna keep her safe. She's out and about, walking in, in fields or down the streets, avoiding classes.
20:39 Speaker 01 So I I just ended up leaving to keep me safe. But thinking back, really, I should have been able to finish school quite happily and safely. And I should have done my GCSEs. I should have even maybe gone to college, you know, is what I could have done.
20:53 Elizabeth Day? Hmm.
20:54 Speaker 01 But yeah, it wasn't known and I stayed quiet and I didn't speak up.
20:59 Elizabeth Day? You didn't ask for help.
21:00 Speaker 01 Didn't ask.
21:00 Elizabeth Day? But you would now.
21:01 Speaker 01 Failed to ask for help.
21:02 Elizabeth Day? I think that idea of output, this is just my output and I don't need your input, is such a good one.
21:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, I love it. I use it a lot.
21:10 Elizabeth Day? Yeah, because I think if it's a loved one, your compulsion is to fix it immediately. And actually, that's not what's needed a lot of the time. A lot of the time is just someone to listen and be present.
21:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think sometimes it's really important, especially for me, because I've always struggled to to just just be myself and make decisions. And now I know that until I start doing that, I'm always really living somebody else's life. If I keep asking for everyone else's opinion, even if it's just on what what shall I wear, what dress do you think, do you think these shoes, or go to a restaurant, I'll instantly go, well, what are you lot eating before I order? At what point, what age do I go, okay, hold on, I want to live my life how I want to. I want to wear the clothes that I'm wearing, eat the food that I like. So I need to just actually start speaking for myself and and getting what I want. So if you if you're having a conversation with someone
22:05 Speaker 01 and it's not just an output, you're always getting somebody else's opinion, input, then those thoughts and opinions and those decisions aren't your own anymore.
22:16 Elizabeth Day? I think that's so relatable. I'm someone who was a terrible people pleaser throughout my teens and twenties. And I realised after a while that I was outsourcing my entire sense of self to someone else's projected opinion of who I should be.
22:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:29 Elizabeth Day? But I know that there's an extra element of this when you are an autistic woman because of the masking.
22:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:37 Elizabeth Day? So how much of that, I mean, it's probably impossible, the question, but how much of that do you think played into the people pleasing?
22:43 Speaker 01 Probably a hundred percent.
22:45 Elizabeth Day? Really?
22:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, like I genuinely, once I understood autism after my diagnosis, I looked back and I was kind of like, was any of that actually me or what I wanted? And I've gone through years of self-discovery of thinking, okay, well, who am I? Who, who do I want to be like even? And there was, there was no one or nothing I could come up with. And I realised how much I didn't know myself at all.
23:12 Elizabeth Day? Hmm.
23:13 Speaker 01 And I'm still learning. You can't just take the mask off. I think people think that once you're diagnosed, you'll, you'll stop masking and you'll suddenly just, just be yourself. It's not that easy because actually masking is, is also part of me. That is authentic to me to, to pretend to, to go to a red carpet event and actually find it extremely overwhelming. But the, the one second photograph that people see on Instagram, I will look so happy and be smiling and I'll look confident. Inside, I'm thinking, okay, how long am I here for? Is this nearly over? Is it too rude if I just say that I'm gonna go and make a phone call because really I just need a break? I'm still doing all of that overthinking constantly.
23:55 Speaker 01 But it's getting less and less, the more, the more I'm feeling like just comfortable in my own skin.
24:02 Elizabeth Day? My final question on this failure is you mentioned that some of this stuff you had only ever spoken about for the first time in your book. And your autism diagnosis is still only four years old. So you're doing an amazing job for, you know, it's only been four years. But I wonder how much it affected your, your mother? Did your mother learn about some of these things for the first time too? And, and has that impacted your relationship?
24:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, she did. I spoke to her whilst I was writing the book. I, I called her a lot and, and I was just, you know, are you okay with me talking about this? I was very aware of, you know, that it's not just my story, although it is, it's, it's my life that, you know, it could affect other people. And I thought a lot about my children reading it when they're older and family members. For my mum, she was, she was really supportive. It was upsetting for her, but she understood why it was important for me to just write about my own life in a book. And it was a really, really big, amazing opportunity. I couldn't believe that anyone would even want to read about me or my life. At the time, I felt very invisible and kind of.
25:12 Speaker 01 No one, like just a, just a mom and it done really well. It went to number one.
25:17 Elizabeth Day? Well done.
25:18 Speaker 01 The book charts. So yeah, it done good.
25:19 Elizabeth Day? It deserved to.
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26:23 Elizabeth Day? And that actually leads us on to your second failure, which is your failure to realise that how your life feels matters more than how it looks.
26:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:31 Elizabeth Day? Tell me why you picked this one?
26:34 Speaker 01 Being in the public eye, obviously at school where I got bullied, I felt very on my own and I had no one. So being in the public eye is kind of like you've got your own little fan club, especially with followers on social media. But with that comes a lot of attention and sometimes a lot of intrusion on your private life. And that's something that I've struggled with everyone's opinions because although I know I don't need it.
27:04 Speaker 01 It it does still affect me and I know it shouldn't, but it it does because I'm human and that's something that I've had to work hard on kind of going. It doesn't matter on how my life looks to anybody else. It really matters how it feels to me and if it feels right to me and it feels good to me, then it's up to me to block out the noise.
27:28 Elizabeth Day? And how does your relationship fit into this context? Because you mentioned your divorce in the email to me underneath this failure. So talk to me a little bit about that.
27:40 Speaker 01 With the divorce, I think, again, a lot of people think that if a marriage ends, that it's failed. And I don't believe that at all.
27:48 Elizabeth Day? Totally agree.
27:49 Speaker 01 We actually had a good sixteen years we were together. I mean, I still live with him. I met him when I was nineteen and we still live together and we've been separated for three years. And it was one of those things I remember when we put out the statement about us separating, the, we were both nervous about what the reaction was going to be publicly. But for me, it was, it was the first time where I really thought, okay, I'm going to do this because we almost have to explain because we're in the public eye. People expect that and it's part of being in the public eye. You have to take the pros and the cons with it. So we'd done it and it was, that was the first time where I kind of went, do you know what, the, putting this statement out, yeah, it's, it's going to be a lot for
28:34 Speaker 01 us mentally and emotionally to let everybody else know, but it's more important that we live our truth. We, we're literally just saying what, what is going on. And that's the truth. We're divorced and but we're okay and we are still living together with the children and we're all right. It's challenging at times, but we need to not worry about what other people think because this feels right. If it feels right to us, that's what we need to do. And I think after that is where I've struggled more because, because of the attention around my sexuality. And that's something that I haven't discussed
29:13 Speaker 01 publicly. And I haven't discussed it intentionally because for me, it's took me years to process why it's big news. Why is it such a big story in the press?
29:30 Speaker 01 Who I date. It shouldn't matter somebody's gender. It never mattered to me, which is why once me and my ex-husband were separated and I just met, I met people. I didn't properly date. It was more like blurred the lines of friendships. For me, that was normal. It felt comfortable because I'd done that as a teenager and as a teenager I dated both men and women and my ex-husband knew, my family knew. It was never a secret for me. It was, it was just a part of me and it was normal. So then when I was single again, that's, that's what I done. But it was me such a big fuss of in the press. I almost went back into myself. I went extremely quiet from feeling
30:14 Speaker 01 quite comfortable and happy and free. I almost was going backwards and I could feel myself shrinking and staying quieter because, because of the noise around it. It almost made me feel like, well, I must be doing something wrong because why would it be front page news? Why is it on every cover of every magazine if I'm seen with a woman? And it's happened multiple times over three years. And every time I've met another woman or started dating somebody else, if there's a photograph, I always think, oh, well, it won't be, it won't be a big thing now. Surely, you know, it will have calmed down. And it's not. It still is such a big thing. So I've intentionally stayed quiet on it because I didn't want to draw any more attention to
30:59 Speaker 01 what is my normal. And then now it's just got to the point where I'm like, okay, if I don't actually acknowledge this at some point, then I, I don't know if it's ever gonna go away. And I just wanna be able to date. And I wanna be able to just enjoy it. And I wanna be able to just feel free. If I wanna hold somebody's hand, it shouldn't matter if they're male or female. It shouldn't matter what their gender is. And I shouldn't really ever even have to explain in any way who I wanna spend my time with. That's my business.
31:33 Elizabeth Day? I'm so moved by that, Christine. I'm so moved by it. Because I'm so happy for you that you're living your truth.
31:41 Speaker 01 Don't cry.
31:42 Elizabeth Day? No, I can't. So like, congratulations. That's so wonderful. And you're so right. You should be empowered to live authentically because you spent so much of your life.
31:57 Elizabeth Day? Just keeping a lid on things and trying to please and try not to cause any trouble and trying not to ask for help. And actually, I just want love for you. And there are people out there who want to love you.
32:07 Speaker 01 I want love for me too.
32:09 Elizabeth Day? Yeah, well, it's totally gonna happen after this, don't you worry. But I think you're so right that that there's something so retrograde around someone having to explain their sexuality, because we live in such a heteronormative culture. So heterosexuality is still probably wrongly seen as the default. And anyone who doesn't subscribe to the default has to explain it. In the same way as neurodivergence, there's a pressure to explain when actually, we're all living our own unique lives. And we shouldn't be putting pressure on anyone to explain who they are.
32:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think that's something that's took me a while as well. For the last couple of years, I have experienced everyone's opinions and thoughts from being pushed and pushed and pushed to to talk about it and to say who I'm dating or who I'm with. And I've also been told to never discuss it ever. And it's, it's hard, because I fully stand by that I don't think anyone in the public eye or not should ever really ever have to explain who they're spending time with if they're an adult. I really believe I don't need to talk about that. It's not anybody's business. It's my private life. But I also get why people have
33:31 Speaker 01 encouraged me to talk about it, because, like you said, people just want love for you. If people want you to be happy, people want you to just be yourself. And until I say it myself, I'm always going to be a little bit more kind of holding back and being careful if I'm going on a date, in case I get seen, you know, which has happened multiple times. And then it's a big shock again in the in the media. I'm just at the point where I think I've got a nice balance of going, yeah, I'd date women, and so what? What's what's the big deal? But also knowing that I don't have to go into big, massive detail about it either.
34:06 Elizabeth Day? Would you give your sexuality a word? How would you describe it?
34:10 Speaker 01 No, and again, I've thought about it. A lot of people always ask me, you know, are you a lesbian? Are you bisexual? Are you what? Is this a phase or? No, I've always been quite a free spirit. I think that's the only word I would put on it. Um, when I was a teenager, like I said, I'd dated boys and girls, young fourteen, fifteen was probably when I had my first kisses with, with both. And I never felt like it was anything different or a big deal then. I think where I grew up, everyone was kind of just, just there for a good time. I grew up on a council estate. Everyone just had big dreams. Everyone just wanted to be happy. And I was just being me then, but of course that wasn't in the public eye. So then having to kind of
34:54 Speaker 01 do this with a much bigger audience, I wasn't prepared for that. I never ever expected my love life to be such, such a big talking point in the media. And yet it's, it kind of made me go quiet and go, oh God, am I doing something wrong? Why is this such a big deal? To now we're just going, it doesn't feel like it's a big deal to me. It feels absolutely fine. So I need to not worry about what other people are thinking.
35:21 Elizabeth Day? Preach. You're not doing anything wrong. You're doing everything right. How does it feel having said that?
35:26 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm, I'm being me and, and that's lovely.
35:31 Elizabeth Day? Have you ever had a long-term relationship with a woman?
35:34 Speaker 01 My longest was two years before I met my ex-husband. And then I've had really, really lovely, long situationships. Where we kind of purposely haven't put like a label on anything, but my experiences with women have been lovely and it's not like women are better or worse. It's simply that the connection for me is different.
36:01 Elizabeth Day? Oh, you're a bit better.
36:02 Speaker 01 And that's, I just, I need a connection now. I need something different. I Really, really, honestly, I love my family and Patrick is part of my family and he always, always will be. But now for my next relationship, I know what I want and I want someone for me. So I want someone that I like spending time with, that we can do stuff together that we both enjoy. I want that emotional connection where I can be open and I can talk and I can be vulnerable and I can ask for help. But I can also have a laugh and, and just have a good time. It's not like I'm trying to find a new family unit or someone to come in and, and be like a, a stepparent.
36:48 Speaker 01 I want my next relationship to be for me.
36:50 Elizabeth Day? Hmm. Do you feel safer with women?
36:54 Speaker 01 Yes, I do, definitely. When I was younger, my experiences with women was so lovely and so good. But after the two-year relationship with a woman, the was just, it ended in heartbreak. And now I can look back and smile and just be like, it was so almost silly because I was so young. But if you think back to those relationships when you're a teenager, your first proper one, that heartbreak is horrible. And you think it's the end of the world and that you're never going to be happy ever again. And that's where I was with her. And we actually left it very, very mutual. It was just that she, she was from Chaslaia. So we obviously couldn't, she just couldn't move over here and I couldn't just get her to move over there. So, so we left and it was really sad.
37:40 Speaker 01 I wanted to make sure after that, that I wasn't avoiding men because of what I experienced when I was much younger. And that actually I was very, very comfortable whether I was dating a man or dating a woman. I didn't want to just. Say, okay, this is it. I'm only being with women for the rest of my life because of what I experienced from one man. And it took me a while from when I had that relationship with a woman. It took me a while to feel comfortable to then go with a man, but the the next person was, of course, my ex husband. And I felt safe with him. We laughed loads. It was a slow burner, so it wasn't intense. There was no pressure.
38:25 Speaker 01 And I think that's probably why it worked. But then after him, so for the last three years where I've had the opportunity to to just be single and kind of experience who or whatever. And I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I can't. I can't bring myself to feel comfortable with another man in that kind of way.
38:47 Elizabeth Day? You call him Patrick. Many of us know him as Paddy McGuinness.
38:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:51 Elizabeth Day? And it sounds like he's fully supportive of this era of your life.
38:56 Speaker 01 He is. He is in some ways and in some ways not. And I don't mean that in a negative at all. It's no, no diss on him at all. I think it's, it's a different side of life for both of us. In the same way that him dating other people has had me feeling in many different ways. I think the sexuality side of it doesn't come into it with his opinions. I think, I hope, I'm not sure. It's kind of we're both going to be doing other things with other people and we both just need to be okay with it. And we also know that it's not each other's business as well. We're quite respectful of that. We don't. We both know that we're, we can date and we're allowed to. We're adults and we're single, so we can.
39:42 Speaker 01 But we also know that we don't need to overshare any information about anything because we are still exes and we are still living in the same house.
39:51 Elizabeth Day? Do you have different wings?
39:53 Speaker 01 We have different wings now. I always joke about, so he's in the west wing. It's kind of like, yeah, we completely have our own space. He's on the top floor of the house. I'm on the floor with the children. And yeah, it, it, it works, it works and it doesn't. It, it works for us as a family because we don't have to move the children. So they've got that continuity and it's consistent. When they come home from school, they know where they're going to. They've got their own rooms, the clothes, the computers, everything they need is in the house. And it doesn't matter too much whether it's mummy at home or daddy at home. So with our schedules being all over the place, it doesn't affect them.
40:33 Speaker 01 Whereas if we were in separate houses, they would kind of be leaving school Wednesday thinking, oh God, are we going to mummy's or daddy's? And then Thursday it might be different. And it's, yeah, it's, it's a lot for them. So I think for now, just keeping it the same, one step at a time. It's, it's nicer for the children. For me and him, it works because we're not having to do the backwards and forwards drop offs. And oh God, where's, where's the charger? Or they've left something that they need at daddy's house and I'm going to have to go and get it. We don't have to deal with that yet. But then the negative side is of course, trying to move on properly is definitely a slower process.
41:13 Elizabeth Day? Kristy McGuinness, I really, really admire you. I can't thank you enough for, for, for choosing this space to talk in this way, in such an empowering and honest and moving way about your true self. Thank you.
41:32 Elizabeth Day? Let's get on to your final failure, which before I start crying all over my notes again, which is your failure to trust your gut, which is so interesting, given the context in which we've been speaking.
41:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:45 Elizabeth Day? And the way that you wrote this to me is that historically you've been taken advantage of financially and emotionally. So what were some of the times that you were taken advantage of?
41:56 Speaker 01 Being a natural people pleaser and wanting to make everyone happy, I find especially financial stuff, I find really difficult to talk about. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. I just, I don't like oversharing that kind of stuff. I also don't ever like to come across like I'm showing off. Equally, I also don't like to say when I'm not doing so good and I'm struggling. So, simple situations could be a meal with two or three people. I will be going, I'm paying, I'll get it. It's okay. It's all right. I'll pay you. You all do. It's fine. No, it's and I will overly insist on just sorting it out because I would rather do that than be sat there going, okay, so are we splitting this? Or and then the
42:41 Speaker 01 waiter comes and I'm having to have a long conversation with the waiters and can you just split that into three or four? And I just find, I just, honestly, I just, it makes my skin crawl. So I think by me doing things like that, people around me would say like, oh, she'll sort it or she'll do it. And, and it would become a thing then that every time I'd go anywhere, it would be me, you would go, oh, I'll pay. And then that then leads on to people saying, oh, can you get tickets to that event? Because you'll be able to get tickets, won't you? And I would think, oh, this is like someone wants to be my friend and they want to go out with me. So, yeah, I'll sort the tickets. And now I look back and I go, very, very obviously just being used and being taken advantage
43:26 Speaker 01 of. And were they really actually my friend if I didn't sort those things out? When would we have actually have seen each other? And, and I kind of let it spiral to the point where it's affected businesses because I've overtrusted and I've believed, I've really, I believe in everyone. I literally believe whatever people say to me. Because of that, I've, I've been burned quite badly. And I'm still. I'm still dealing with a lot of that and it's very, very heavy. But from that now, only in the last six months, I have taught myself how to build my own website, how to build an app, how to super secure everything, run all of my different businesses and social medias
44:10 Speaker 01 on different accounts and juggle it all. And all of those skills, I never thought in a million years that I would understand how to actually build a website and read all of the back data and be able to do a whole stock check and understand money and finances and profit and what goes in and what comes out. All of those lessons I've learned because I was burnt along the way.
44:34 Elizabeth Day? And talk to me a bit about friendship and how all of this has affected your approach to friendship.
44:41 Speaker 01 So I've always struggled with socialising and this was probably one of the red flags of being autistic that wasn't picked up on. I think people just thought I was a loner and I'm quite happy to be on my own, which is true in a lot of ways. But the reason behind that was because of how much I do struggle to socialise and I still do. I'm definitely getting better at it because I'll put myself in situations to keep learning and trying, but it's not something that comes naturally to me. So when I have made friends in the past and I haven't made a lot, I usually will have one friend for a while and then something will happen. It's hard because I'm still learning to trust, I'm still learning to be okay with letting
45:26 Speaker 01 people in into my life and to know me, like actually me, not the what I present, you know, at work, which is still me, it's another side of me. But we all have a different side, you know, that we only share with our closest. And I'm not at that point with anybody right now in my life. I've got Duncan is my closest friend and even that friendship took years. We met seven years ago on the Rio from Monty.
45:54 Elizabeth Day? This is Duncan James?
45:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. And he was really good fun, he was a good laugh and we had a friendship like instantly. But our bond now has only grown in the last two years. It's took me a long time to get to the point where. I will go, yeah, he is my friend. He is my friend. I know I can call him at any time. And if I need any help or advice with anything, I know that I can call that one person.
46:21 Elizabeth Day? You say that you can only trust, well, one friend, but presumably you can trust your family, you can trust your kids.
46:29 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, yeah, of course. But that's a completely different relationship with the children. Like, they are, they're my soul. They really are. They are my, my whole heart. If it wasn't for those children, I don't think I would be here. I don't think I would be me. I don't think I would be doing half of the stuff I'm doing, even speaking like this today, because without those children, I wouldn't have understood autism. I wouldn't, I'd never heard of it, didn't understand it until my children got diagnosed. And it's quite ironic, I was thinking about this the other day, that I gave my children life by being them up and giving them life, but they save mine every day. And they don't
47:12 Speaker 01 even know. And I love that. It's just because it's pure love and they are my people. And we get each other. We get each other. And that's amazing. Nobody gets me like my children do. And nobody gets my children like I do.
47:29 Elizabeth Day? This podcast obviously is all about failure and what we learn from it. But I wonder if that's how you define success, then, motherhood, your relationship with your children, is that success for you?
47:40 Speaker 01 It's beyond success. It's the Oscar of motherhood. I only ever wanted to be a mum. So just getting pregnant, first of all, I felt I had won. I felt I had succeeded everything I ever wanted. Now, not only am I a mum to three absolutely incredible little humans, like they really, I'm not even just being biased. My children are pure magic. That's how I see them. They are little miracles. And the change in the world through, right now, through me speaking, but I fully believe one day that they will speak for themselves. And it is thanks to them that so many people have been diagnosed, so many people
48:23 Speaker 01 are understanding themselves. And I am one of those people. I'm so, so grateful and thankful for my journey of being a mum, as over, over exceeded anything that I ever imagined it to be, because I now get to know me as well.
48:40 Elizabeth Day? What an unbelievable interview. I'm so grateful to have had the chance to speak to you as your authentic, powerful self. And I'm so excited for what lies in store for you in the future. Thank you, Christine McGinnis for coming.
48:54 Speaker 01 I loved it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Absolutely loved it.
48:59 Elizabeth Day? Thanks so much for listening and watching. This June on How to Fail, we're all about celebrating wellness from the inside. If you'd like to hear more on this, go and listen to my episode with Vicky Patterson, brought to you by Alaa Lacto Free. The link is in the episode description.
49:17 Elizabeth Day? Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
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