How to give up control - advice from neuroscientist Heather Berlin

Heather Berlin is a a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and professor of psychiatry and neuroscience who studies the science of giving up control. She joins Chris to talk about finding the balance between knowing when to hold on to control and when to let go and be present in the moment. They also discuss why you don’t need to always be productive or in a constant state of self-optimization, and how there are benefits in learning to lose track of time and practicing boredom. Featured guest Follow Heather Berlin on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/heather_berlin/, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-berlin-phd-mph-a753ba10/, and at https://heatherberlin.com/Buy Heather's book The Fine Art of Losing Control https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1982150009?tag=simonsayscomTune in to Heather's TED Talk, coming soon in November 2026 Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDAudioCollective https://www.youtube.com/TEDAudioCollectiveFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Chris Duffy?

  This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and I'm not gonna lie, the thing that I like most about hosting a podcast is how it gets edited. There is so much control that we have because it's not live. If I say something off-putting or a strange noise gets made, like, or

• 0:28Chris Duffy?

  that can get edited out. The producers and I have a lot of control over the audio that you end up hearing and the video that you end up seeing. But, but, but, I have no control at all about what you think about each episode. What do you do with that information? How you respond? Do you love it and recommend it to a friend? Do you hate it and leave a furious review? Do you send me an email telling me that I need to invest in high-quality lossages to make my voice sound smoother? That is up to you. If you're like me, and I guess most people, you probably think that it's better when you have more control over your life and what happens. But today's guest, the neuroscientist Heather Berlin, believes that that is actually not the case, that what we should be aiming for is a balance

• 1:11Chris Duffy?

  between control and letting go. She wrote a whole book about it that is called The Fine Art of Losing Control. And here's a clip from her TED Talk where she's talking all about it.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  For over two decades, my research has explored how the prefrontal cortex, the brain's brake pedal, interacts with deeper emotional and reward circuits of the limbic system, the accelerator. We use impulse control tasks, together with brain scans and physiological measures, to see in real time how well people can hit the brakes and how strongly they're pulled to hit the gas, and what happens when these two systems are out of sync. And what I've learned from my research, clinical work, and life, is that thriving depends on how well we balance those extremes between holding back and letting go. To truly gain control,

• 2:03Speaker 01

  you have to learn the fine art of losing it on purpose, in the right moments. Now, sometimes you need the break, pause, walk away, choose the long game. But sometimes you need release. Stop perfecting, rehearsing, trying to control everything. Let uncertainty and connection in, and the messy version of you to show up.

• 2:28Chris Duffy?

  We're going to be right back with more from Heather after this quick ad break.

• 2:39Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human and your gift will be matched five times.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Parloa. Look, most businesses want their customers to feel heard, not stuck waiting around for someone who can help. Nothing makes you feel less important than sitting on hold for hours, explaining the same problem to the fifth person who picks up.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  But here's the thing. The bigger you get, the harder it becomes to show up the way you want to in each customer interaction. Parloa solves that problem. Their voice-first AI agents handle customer conversations in a way that feels natural, personal, and helpful. They work 24/7 across voice, chat, and email, in any language with zero wait time. Plus, your team gets access to features like Lens, which flags issues in real time, and Navigator, which figures out why those issues are happening and what to do next. It's secure, scalable, and built to serve the customer. When AI works well, it shouldn't feel like AI. It should feel like you're being seen and heard and valued.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Unhold your customers with Parloa. Learn more at parloa.com. That's P A R L O A dot com.

• 4:40Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. Today on the show, we're talking about how to let go of control with Heather Berlin.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Heather Berlin. I am a neuroscientist and clinical psychologist and professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York. My new book's coming out next year in 2027. It's called The Fine Art of Losing Control.

• 5:03Chris Duffy?

  One of the things you said in your TED Talk that I thought was surprising is that thriving, in your opinion, as a neuroscientist, is about finding the right balance between control and loss of control.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 5:17Chris Duffy?

  And I think that's not a way that many of us think about thriving in our lives, is having the right balance of loss of control.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's pounded into us, you know, from an early age, especially with children who, you know, their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed yet. And so parents are constantly trying to sort of get them under control, right, to control their impulses. And from an early age, you know, we are kind of taught that the pinnacle is, you know, for thriving is to gain ultimate control over our instincts, you know, over our animalistic behaviors, right? You know, you want one marshmallow now, or you can wait for two marshmallows later, right? And the people who can wait, like, have some sort of advantage. And while, yes, control is very important in certain contexts, and we do need it to thrive,

• 6:08Speaker 01

  like, say, you know, to achieve great things at work, or, you know, you need to sacrifice the immediate reward to get the long-term gain. And so that really works well for certain contexts. But I think what people tend to miss is that it's just as important to find time to purposely and in a healthy way, let go. And that is just as important for other things, for play, for connection, for creativity. And the real control comes in learning how to

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Tune the dial, how to turn up the control at will and then turn it down on purpose. And that's where real thriving comes in.

• 6:48Chris Duffy?

  I used to think like scientists and artists have really different ways of approaching the world, have really different mindsets. And yet, when talking to you, when we first met, you know, several years ago, you challenged that idea for me in the sense that like you are a scientist, you're a really accomplished scientist, and yet you are asking these same questions that artists are asking. What is my unique contribution? What am I passionate about? How do I say something in a new way? How do I find something that is new and powerful and meaningful? So I wonder if you can talk about that, the creativity part of the research and how that ties into this idea of of loss of control sometimes.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I am fascinated by, you know, what it is to be human. My real reason I became a scientist was it was like this fear of death. And I want to understand where does my consciousness come from? Where do my thoughts come from? Oh, they come from the brain. How does the brain work? But really, it's like, you know, whatever you want to call it, a soul or or being human. Like, what is it that makes us human and feel alive? And, you know, I think that comes from this idea of, you know, we can create things, we create meaning. We have this, you know, we find ourselves here on this earth, and there's all this ambiguous stimuli around, and we find meaning in it, and we find structure and we build relationships. And so I've always been a scientist and an artist. Like, I needed both.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  And I was a fine arts minor, and I did theater and painting. And I needed that outlet to be able to do the more concrete, you know, convergent thinking that was needed for science. I needed the outlet. It was like a yin and yang. And that being said, science itself is a creative endeavor. I mean, the most brilliant scientists are the ones who took all the data points and came up with something new and thought of a new idea, right? Like, like the double helix or, you know, you know, Darwin comes up with this theory of evolution. Everyone else had access to the same data, but he looked at it in a new and unique way. So I think art and science are not separate. They're integrated and they they need one another, right? Because all unstructure isn't good, right? Like, like improvisation, you know, you're not just playing random notes.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  You're you're playing around within a particular structure, right? Or like, you know, freestyle rap, you know, it's not just random words. It's with it's rhyming. And so, anyway, I got fascinated with. The how in terms of like treating patients and looking at different psychiatric and neurological illnesses, how do we access the unconscious? And I started looking at the neural basis of creativity because it was a state in which you kind of you get you decrease activation in the sort of control center of your brain, the prefrontal cortex. And it allows for this information to sort of bubble up that's normally being suppressed from the unconscious. And you can access it. And that's where creativity comes because you get these divergent connections between ideas, whereas normally things are suppressed and concrete and you want that most of the time.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  But sometimes you need to take the lid off to allow for a generative phase, you know, and then you execute, right? Then you need the prefrontal cortex to execute.

• 9:46Chris Duffy?

  So how does the academic and scientific knowledge you have about creativity and about control and about presence, how does that affect your day to day life or or these moments that are, you know, these high stakes moments like giving a TED talk on a big stage in front of 2,000 people?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so funny because it's like there are two parts of your mind, you know, there's one, there's like the scientist and I know the facts, right? And but as much as you know the facts about things, you're still an experiencing human who's like you're basically you can understand sort of how the matrix works, but you're still living inside the matrix, right? So like, there's only so much like meta-awareness I can have. And and you know, the point with the with the being self-aware is that, you know, once you've, once you've practiced something, you know, whether it's a musician, a surgeon, or someone giving a lecture, an artist, but once you've trained your muscles in a way to to perform your best, you have to actually stop trying so hard to perform, you have to let go. The moment you become too self-aware, you're actually inserting too much consciousness into it, this sort of top-down processing, and you lose the flow state of what you've

• 10:48Speaker 01

  trained to do. So the best, the most professional athletes in a way, when they're finally in this, you know, peak performance, they have to let go. And if you become self-aware, you lose the flow. And so I try to practice that.

• 10:59Chris Duffy?

  Is that because it's going through an entirely different pathway in our brains? Or is it because a pathway that is not helpful in that moment is not being activated?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  It's a bit of both. If you think about this, you know, I talk about top down or conscious control, like consciousness is really good when you're when you're having novel situations and you need to like be very specific about, okay, like, I'm just giving a minor example, but like, if you told me you need to pick only the red M and M's from this jar of M and M's, like, it's very specific. You want to be consciously aware of color and things to get that specific thing. And that's a sort of different brain network. And we need that for for novel things. But when the brain is interacting with the world, there's so much stimulation out there. If we had to be consciously aware of every decision in every single situation, it would be overwhelming and be maladaptive. So we have these heuristics, we have these shortcuts that we we sort of perform in an unconscious way, like walking, you know, we're not thinking about each step we're taking. Or if you're a professional

• 11:54Speaker 01

  tennis player, you're not thinking, okay, what exactly angle should I hit this ball? Because then you start activating another part of the brain, which is important for some circumstances, but not in a highly trained circumstance. Then it actually gets in the way of this automatic sort of, let's call it network, that's that's doing its thing, you know, it knows what to do, it just runs on autopilot. And when you start inserting consciousness, it can mess it up. Now, if something novel happens, like, let's say you're driving, you know, you're not consciously thinking about all the movements you're doing when you're driving. But if suddenly a car comes out of nowhere, suddenly you're going to attend to it and start to make these different decisions and use consciousness. But let's say everything's going smoothly. Inserting consciousness can actually mess up that automated network that you've trained to sort of run on its own.

• 12:35Chris Duffy?

  The idea of training is a big piece of this, but also this idea of play, right? That like, when you play, you aren't as focused on the outcome. Instead, you're focused on the process and being in the moment and enjoying it, right? Like, it's a very different feeling to like, play tennis with a friend versus to compete in tennis in a tournament, right? I would freeze up and be terrible. Whereas like, if I'm just hitting the ball around, I probably am much less focused on the outcome, and I'm probably having more of a fun time as a result.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  When you're in the moment, when you're in that, when you're sort of in that unconstrained state.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  You stop thinking and start being, you know, so you're fully present in the moment. The moment you start, and again, that thinking is bad. It's good for certain situations, but when you're playing, you're almost like, we can see parts of the brain, the prefrontal cortex are less active. When it's overactive and you're overthinking, you can become anxious or ruminate or too self-aware and start questioning everything you're doing. And that's not fun, right? But when you can release that and not be self-aware and not be overthinking things, you are fully present in the moment. And when people are in that state, it's a very enjoyable state. It's associated with positive emotions and people really thrive to get there. And that's also happens to be where creativity can emerge as well. But you don't need to have creativity in these kind of flow states.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  It could just be a matter of just being and being fully present and not overthinking or ruminating. So you're turning down activation of that prefrontal cortex, the kind of self-awareness center of your brain.

• 14:06Chris Duffy?

  Maybe you can give me a little bit of some like technical terminology or understanding of a thing that I think we've all had, the one that for me is the most intuitive and common, which is that I do not think about breathing for 90% of my day, probably even more than that. But if I think about breathing, now I'm actively controlling whether I'm inhaling or exhaling. And it's actually kind of weird because now I'm thinking about it and I'm not inhaling when I should be inhaling. And so I have to go.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Well, first thing I want to say is just like in terms of technical, like, you know, nuance, it's not just the prefrontal cortex as one entity. And a lot of, you know, the work I did for my PhD was like trying to dissect the different parts of the prefrontal cortex. You have the orbital prefrontal cortex and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and the ventral medial prefrontal cortex. So there are different aspects of the prefrontal cortex that do slightly different things. And I'm just throwing that out there as like a little caveat. It's not one thing, but a lot of the sort of suppression that happens like in the self-awareness, that's to do with the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex as opposed to the orbital prefrontal cortex. So that's to be a little bit technical. But now the question you asked, I mean, it's a great. Great question, because a lot of times, you know, with I have patients, for example,

• 15:19Speaker 01

  who have OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. And when we do neuroimaging studies, we see it's actually overactivation of parts of their prefrontal cortex. And some of them have what's called like this sort of body focused OCD where they're very focused on something like they're hyper aware of their breathing and or of like something like their mouth being dry. And they can't and normally these are things where not really consciously think about the second you focus on it.

• 15:47Chris Duffy?

  As soon as you said them, I became really aware of both of those things.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Right, didn't you? And now imagine you can't take your attention and focus off of that. How distracting that would be, how frustrating that would be. And so, you know, you do get into these disorders where they're paying too much conscious attention to these things that is distracting, that is maladaptive. So it's very adaptive to not pay attention to it. If there's a problem, like suddenly your breathing is becoming labored, you're gonna focus your attention on that. So but the bigger question that you're asking is, where's the switch, right? Where's the switch in the brain between conscious and unconscious? There's a lot of debate within the field about what is the difference between the sort of the neural circuitry involved in unconscious processes and what changes when it becomes conscious? And we can build experiments that we look at, for example, I show you an image with

• 16:33Speaker 01

  like a subliminal message in it. And you're looking at it, you don't see the message, you're like, I don't see it, whatever. Suddenly, I'm like, look, there it is, you know, there's the hidden message. Now, once you see it, you can't unsee it, right? All you see is that message. And then we try to track what changed in your brain, in your mind's eye. Because the physical stimulus was the same, but your conscious perception switched, something switched. And we start to try to track that. Now, there's different theories about what the neural basis of consciousness is. Some people say you need feedback loops, you need activation in the prefrontal cortex to feed back to sort of like, let's say it's a visual stimuli to visual parts of the brain. And in within these feedback loops, you get this emergence of consciousness. Some think you just need the back of the brain.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  There's integrated information theory, which says it's a certain amount of differentiated integrated information that you need. So it gets very complex. The real answer is, we don't fully know, we do not have a consensus on the neural basis of consciousness. We have some ideas, we have some understanding of what like very important parts of the brain are for something to be conscious, but we don't know the exact mechanism.

• 17:37Chris Duffy?

  I find it very easy to switch into control, to be like, I'm controlling my breath. I am aware of the saliva in my mouth. I am aware of my body's walking. I find it much more difficult to switch off from control.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:55Chris Duffy?

  To lose the control, right? It's easy to switch into, I am actively controlling my body. And it's harder to switch out of, now it becomes automatic again. And it seems like there's quite a lot of benefits to losing that conscious control. So, one, is that just me? Is that some weird thing that I have? Or is that more common? And then, two, how do we do that? How do we consciously lose some control of the conscious control?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  So what I would say first is that there's, there's variation amongst people, right? Now, some people are, think of it like a spectrum, a control spectrum. Some people are chronically, like, on the one end of the spectrum, they're sort of have too little control, right? Let's say somebody who's prone to like addiction and impulsive behavior, whatever. And their goal is to kind of, it's harder for them actually to gain control. And we work with them to try to gain more of it, right? They have, let's say, compulsive gambling or those kinds of behavioral addictions. Then you have people on the other end of the spectrum that have too much control, right? They're over controlled, OCD, and then you need to try to help them get less. And then there's just people everywhere amongst that, you know, within that spectrum. So everybody's slightly different in terms of what's harder or, you know, for them to do.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  But I would say in general, if you take a person who's a kind of, let's say, a type A person, you know, they're, they're CEO of a company or whatever, they're very successful in their career. So they're very good at control, but they have difficulty letting go. And you kind of have to train your brain and practice, like you do any skill set. And, you know, I talk about in the TED Talk, these four different ways of, of practicing. One is to practice micro letting go, like doing it in little ways, you know? Like, take a different route home, or, you know, let someone else choose the restaurant. And try to, Practice tiny little letting go, you know, throughout your day, taking these micro risks. And then also, sitting with the discomfort. Hmm.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  So it might feel uncomfortable at first, like people don't like uncertainty, right? Us people who who tend to be on the more control side, right? So you're letting go of the reins a little bit and you're sitting with the discomfort until it passes. And, you know, learning that discomfort isn't danger, you know, it's it's okay. Like, your brain needs to actually learn, because it's again, one thing to be cognitive of something like, oh, yes, I know it's good. Or let's say, you know, to, if somebody's afraid to take the elevator, right? Okay, I know there's nothing really bad, but yet you still feel that it's something bad could happen. So you actually have to just take the elevator and sit with the discomfort. And then your brain learns, oh, look, nothing bad happened. And then it becomes easier to do it again next time. So you kind of have to train yourself.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  And then I I talk about, you know, doing one thing where you lose track of time. And as my test is like your tea, I have always made tea with me, a cold tea test. Something where you get so absorbed in something where you forget your tea until it turns cold. This cold tea test. And, you know, for me, it's like, it could be when I get super absorbed in like reading or writing. But for someone else, it could be, you know, rock climbing, or it could be whatever, whatever your activity is, where you lose track of time and try to gardening, right? Try to do that more and incorporate that more in in your life. Another tip is to let yourself be bored. Because I think boredom, you know, we're always busy ourselves and go for a walk, but yet you're listening to a podcast and you're always, you know,

• 21:12Speaker 01

  occupying what we call the executive control network of the brain. And I want you to get into this sort of default mode network. And in order to get there, you have to go through sort of the portal of boredom. And so let yourself be bored and eventually your mind will start to wander. And that's a good thing and you need to build that into your day. So you can do it a little ways, like you're waiting in line for your coffee or something. And instead of checking your phone or your emails, just stand there and look around and be bored, like we used to do in the, you know, eighties and nineties, if you're that old. Um, you know, look out the car window. I used to watch the little drips of the rain, like when they would. On the window and then they would like join up with each other and they would be like racing each other like that's how I occupied myself but it's

• 21:52Chris Duffy?

  Very beautiful scene in an indie movie right there.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Oh, right there. I mean, come on. Yeah. So, you know, these are some ways to practice letting go so that you can get more comfortable doing it. Now, some artists like it's so easy for them to get into these states, but they actually have trouble getting out of them. Right. And um, but depending on where you're on the spectrum, you're going to need different, you know, other people are going to need tricks of the trade to get more control. But these are the ones to kind of let go.

• 22:17Chris Duffy?

  So um, it's it's practicing finding both ends of the spectrum and then finding yourself where you sit in the middle of it on on all of these forms of of boredom and control.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  I think, you know, you got to find where's your pain point and then like lean into that. And that's sort of usually where that's where the work needs to be done for you. And like I said, there's no one prescription. Everybody, everybody is a bit different. And it depends on where, you know, where you want to grow. But but I do think like with letting go, you can do it in healthy ways. Like you don't need drugs or alcohol. Do like some people just like go straight to I'm like, yeah, like, look psychedelics, they they're an immediate like shut your brain the the control part off and you get we can see with neuroimaging, you get this, these unconstrained sort of communication between networks in the brain that are normally constrained. But if you would like that all the time, it'd be like schizophrenia, like you need some constraint,

• 23:10Speaker 01

  right? So it's okay to occasionally take, like I said, take the lid off, let there be this sort of chaos in the brain, but then put the lid back on. But you can do it in healthy ways. The brain is sort of equipped to do it on its own without drugs. You don't need drugs. You can, you know, deep meditative states and it's harder to get there through the natural means, but you also don't get, you know, the hangover or addiction. So

• 23:34Chris Duffy?

  So there's a plus sides to

• 23:36Speaker 01

  There's a plus side to. Not that I'm for or anti drug, you know, whatever, do what you want. But I'm just saying, you know, the the brain is a very powerful mechanisms to get you there.

• 23:46Chris Duffy?

  We're going to be right back with more from Heather after this quick break.

• 23:55Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold, brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change.

• 24:39Chris Duffy?

  In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  This episode is sponsored by WeShare Health, an affordable alternative to traditional health insurance. While healthcare costs keep climbing every year, WeShare is doing things differently. It's a nonprofit built to put people first. No annual price hikes, no surprises. In fact, their membership prices haven't budged in five years. Members can pay up to 60% less than they would for traditional health insurance, saving up to $5,000 per year. Plus, members get real benefits: a nationwide PPO network with over 1 million physicians, unlimited telehealth, and access to more than 68,000 CVS Caremark pharmacies. WeShare goes beyond traditional health insurance, providing both extensive preventative and holistic care.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Over 100,000 members have already made the switch. Call 1-888-WESHARE to get a free quote in minutes. That's 1-888-WESHARE. Or visit wesharehealth.org to learn more.

• 25:47Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Whatnot. You know what makes shopping great? When it feels like an experience, like a conversation with someone who's just as excited about what you're buying as you are. That's what I like about Whatnot. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping app where you can hop into a live show, hang out and ask questions. And on the other side of the screen, sellers are building real thriving businesses. I recently joined a couple of live shows on their app and I found all sorts of great deals. I bought giant boxes of candy bars at a huge discount for Halloween and then I got a tool I needed for my home repairs. It's just such an interactive way to shop. It's really unlike any other way that I've bought things and it's a lot of fun. And not only can you shop, you can sell too. It doesn't matter if your business is big, small, or still just an idea.

• 26:29Chris Duffy?

  You go live, show off products in real time and turn what you love into real income. You're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the App Store. Download and you can start selling right away.

• 26:47Chris Duffy?

  And we're back. Heather, it feels like the perfect scenario to talk about the relationship between control and letting go is giving a TED Talk. So can you talk about how you came to the TED stage and how you balanced those two impulses?

• 27:01Speaker 01

  You know, as someone who's a science communicator and I've done a lot of like stage presentations and things like I'm not a, I'm not afraid of public speaking, right? But this was very nerve wracking for me because of what the amount of what was like a sort of perceived control with it. And but, but for me, it started, you know, it started with a conversation with one of the head curators and you know, it was very much curated in a sense like, yes, you create a script and it's, you have a very small period of time. So you really want to get in a lot of information at times. So that necessitates a script. You don't want to just start rambling and then, you know, before you know it, whatever, 10, 15 minutes is gone. So the thing that really tripped me up was this idea of having to memorize a script.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Now everyone's like, you don't have to memorize it, whatever. However, I, my advice, I mean, for someone like me, it's almost like you, you have to memorize it so well. I practiced it three times. First, I color coded it and did all this stuff because you know, that's my learning style. I had to see it visually or whatever. But then I practiced it three times a day, every day for like about two and a half weeks leading up to that. It was just part of my daily routine. It was like ritual. It almost was so much ingrained that I used to do it on my walks, like I'd go on daily walks. But what was so interesting is that what I found on stage when I finally went up there and I was very nervous because just the format and the people and the audience, like, you know, it's not just any audience, right? And it's just you standing alone on this, you know, big red circle. And it's just, it's, it's not the most

• 28:31Speaker 01

  natural of situations, let's say.

• 28:33Chris Duffy?

  And it feels very high stakes. It feels like this could be, this could be the moment that turns my book into a bestseller, that changes my life. This is all the opportunities that could happen right here.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Look, if I bombed it, like, nothing bad would happen, but I felt like if, if I did really well, it could, it could lead to opportunities. And so it was, it was a chance to do something. But I knew, I knew from neuroscience that the only way I was gonna go well is I had to let go when I'm on stage. And I'm like, if I become too self-aware right now, I'm gonna mess up. And I'm almost in saying that allowed me to let go even more. But I also found myself, because once I turned the filter down a bit, like, I threw in some ad libs at my talk. You know, I practiced this talk so much and whatever, and I wasn't gonna get every word right. There were just moments that it just, once I turned the filter down, like, I just let go. And I threw in some ad libs, which I'm sure you'll be able to notice in the.

• 29:24Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, and they're very fun. They connect you to the audience. But then there's also this moment at the very end of your talk that I was curious to ask you about because it felt like you got genuinely very emotional. Like, maybe there was a moment where you were like almost about to cry. And it clearly wasn't like a practiced moment. But it also wasn't necessarily like the words were so, it wasn't like you were telling a story about like a pet that had died or something like that. It wasn't some tragic moment. It was just like you were really present in the moment, even though you had rehearsed this so much that you got to a place where you were almost crying.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  I knew I had rehearsed it enough. I wasn't that worried that I was gonna forget my lines, but I wanted to be fully present and to let go. And so. When you let go, you're not controlling your emotions. You're not controlling like what you might blur it out or whatever. But that's part of, that's necessary as part of the process. Almost like why, you know, comedians who are doing improv on stage, like, things start to just come out, right? From their unconscious, you don't know what's gonna come. And that's part of it. That's sort of the risk that you take. Listen, the beginning of the talk, I was like, I wanna get out of here. Like, part of my brain was like, I wanna run off this stage right now. I don't wanna be here. Like, I was, cuz you just, it's all the adrenaline and you're kind of terrified. And as I was nearing the end, I was like, oh, my God, like, you know, almost like a relief, like, I did it.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  But also, I was talking about, you know, my fear of death. And, you know, what I've learned is that in order to sort of truly live and be present, you ha, it's this acceptance. You have to accept, like, I can't control how long I live. I can't, you know, you have to fully let go and be present. And, and that's when you start to actually savor every moment of life. And I think that's like, you know, was the lesson that I had learned. It was so powerful because it was like, this was a moment for me. Like, here I was on the stage in that moment, you know? I just felt it all at once of like, this is a moment in my life, like, in real time. And it just kind of all came together for me of like,

• 31:22Speaker 01

  yeah, I, I don't wanna die and all of that and this fear. But like, here I am in this moment, doing this thing, which is pretty cool. And I'm almost done and I did it, like, you know? And it was just, it was pretty overwhelming, you know, for me.

• 31:34Chris Duffy?

  I love that. Giving this talk, I think, is a, is a very practical example in your life of a, of a way that you've both had control and had to give up control. The other thing that I'm thinking about for myself is when I think about the idea of losing control and my desire for control, a lot of what comes up for me personally is, has to do with other people. So, relationships, being a parent, being in a romantic relationship, working with people. So often, my desire for control is that I wish I could make other people do things in exactly the way that I want them to do things that would be easiest for me. And having to get comfortable with the idea that that's not what any relationship will ever look like.

• 32:19Chris Duffy?

  It's just a perfect frictionless, you know, smoothness. And, and that, actually, that is the beauty of them, is that I get challenged in ways that make me grow and that make me see the world differently and that are beautiful. Like, so much of what I value about my relationships is Exactly that inability to control another person. So how do we accept some of the lack of control in our relationships with other people?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  In my book, I have a whole section on love and, you know, what's happening in the brain and, how that relates to our relationships. But to truly love, like you have to, you have to let go and you have to take a risk. First of all, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be allow yourself to be fully in love. You have to have the risk of being really badly hurt. But if you don't open yourself up fully to that vulnerability, you won't actually ever fully feel that connection and that love. So it's a very scary thing. And, and I see this a lot of patients too, you know, a lot of people come to therapy. It's like a lot of, you know, relationship issues. It's like, look, the person is who they are. You're not going to change them. People can change within certain boundaries, right?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Like, but if you're a highly anxious person, I can maybe get you to be slightly less anxious, but you're never going to be the most relaxed person in the room. It's just not in your nature, right? So like, yes, people can change within limits, but you're not, don't expect your like very messy, messy partner to suddenly become a neat freak. Like you can get them to maybe clamp a bit, but expect that they're still going to like leave their clothes on the ground. And there's an acceptance and, and also an appreciation of you. Each individual is unique. Each person sees the world through their own like perception box. I have this podcast I do, it's called Science of Perception Box, but it's how we all see the world through our own lens. And when you accept that somebody else, they just don't see the world the way you do.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  And your whole job is to try to figure out ways to connect and interact and be together as a couple, given that you are so different. And instead of trying to make you know, that person more like you or behave in more in ways that you would like, say, I, that's who they are. How am I going to figure out how to interact with them, given who they are and given who I am? And then it's like liberating because you're not trying to control anyone. You're just trying to find what can I do to make this work versus what can I make them do to make this work?

• 34:41Chris Duffy?

  It also feels like when a relationship of any kind isn't working, having less of this idea that it's all in your control. Is a way to not feel guilty or ashamed of not being able to make every single relationship work in exactly the way that you think it maybe should work. So like, maybe, maybe you're not going to be friends forever. Maybe this isn't the romantic relationship for you. It's not actually in your control.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  You know, when people, I do couples therapy too, which is, it's just always interesting. They often come and they wanted me to be the sort of referee and determine like who's right and who's wrong. And it's like, nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's, are you two compatible or not, given who you are? It's not like that person needs to change, this person's doing something wrong. It's just, there's so much incompatibility that it's just, there's so much friction. You just think, you know what, it's not going to work. There's the good, you know, the bad outweighs the good. Then it's okay to step, walk away and move on. You don't have to force every relationship into working. And it's okay to let things go if they're not, if they're not servicing you in a way that's like, you know, helping fulfill your life. And that's to say that every relationship has to be about, you know, serving you. But,

• 35:49Speaker 01

  but it is to say that like, if it's becoming more arguing, then you actually are having good times together, then maybe it's okay to let it go.

• 35:57Chris Duffy?

  We've talked about your kind of four tips of ways to practice letting go. I, I wonder if there are some kind of smaller interventions that we might have if we feel ourselves really not wanting to lose control. If we're really in that, like, I'm gripping so tightly and I, I shouldn't be gripping. What can you do in, in that moment to kind of let go?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  You have to find like a little opening in the door, right? Just something like whatever you can tolerate. So, you know, let's say you have a child who's struggling with perfectionism. I'll say like, purposely just, just, you know, spell a word wrong and sit with it. Or, you know, color outside the line. Like, it can be the simplest thing as much as you can tolerate. I often say to people, like, you have a scale of one to 10 in terms of, Uncomfortableness or feeling anxious about something. Okay, 10 is like the absolute worst thing, right? One is like no anxiety. I'll say do something where you can, it's like, like a four for you, a four or five for you on the sort of, you know, discomfort scale and sit with it and do it over and over again

• 37:03Speaker 01

  until eventually your brain habituates and it goes down to a two or a three. And then do the next thing on the scale. So whatever it is for you, like maybe it's like, you know, symmetry. And I'm like, okay, you just tie the one shoe with, with one tie and the other shoe, you do it with a double knot and then you sit with that for the day or something. Whatever you can tolerate where it's not overwhelming for you, but it's like a four or five on a discomfort scale. So that, that's, you know, can vary between people.

• 37:31Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by ADT. It's that time of year again, when life gets busy, back to school, back to work, back to routine. When everyone is out the door and on the go, it's comforting to know your home is taken care of while you're away. ADT makes that part easy. Enjoying the little moments with friends and family is easier when you have one less thing on your mind. With their customizable systems that can be professionally installed, ADT has your home security covered. The ADT Plus app lets you access your whole system from your phone. You can arm, disarm, and even check live camera feeds. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Parloa. Look, most businesses want their customers to feel heard, not stuck waiting around for someone who can help. Nothing makes you feel less important than sitting on hold for hours, explaining the same problem to the fifth person who picks up. But here's the thing, the bigger you get, the harder it becomes to show up the way you want to in each customer interaction. Parloa solves that problem. Their voice-first AI agents handle customer conversations in a way that feels natural, personal, and helpful. They work 24/7 across voice chat and email in any language with zero wait time.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Plus, your team gets access to features like Lens, which flags issues in real time, and Navigator, which figures out why those issues are happening and what to do next. It's secure, scalable, and built to serve the customer. When AI works well, it shouldn't feel like AI. It should feel like you're being seen and heard and valued. Unhold your customers with Parloa. Learn more at parloa.com. That's P-A-R-L-O-A dot com.

• 39:28Chris Duffy?

  Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One Venture X Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 39:58Chris Duffy?

  Well, something that's fun about those examples to me, too, is I think if we have the frame of how we're seeing those as like, this is how it's supposed to be, and this is the right way and the wrong way, and I'm doing it the wrong way, it feels scary or uncomfortable for a lot of people. But if you switch the way you're viewing it and you view it as fun or play or a game, right? Like, what's the wildest difference I can create between how my left shoe and my right shoe are tied? If it's not just like a little bit different, but if it's truly as far as you can go, all of a sudden, that heightened version feels playful and funny and often provokes laughter, which I think is a state that when you're laughing and playing like that, you don't feel that fear or that judgment of yourself or judgment from others.

• 40:42Chris Duffy?

  And it's a different way of viewing it.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, you know, humor is one of the, we call it the more sophisticated defense mechanisms in a way of like dealing with uncomfortable feelings. Humor is a good, a good way to deal with it and to lighten it a bit. I also do it as, for certain people, especially perfectionists, as a challenge. I'm like, your assignment is to color outside the lines. If you don't, like, you get, you fail. Like, you get an F, right? So you gotta kind of like flip the narrative and like, I'm like, I'm the teacher, this is your assignment, you need to like do well this week in messing up, right? And so you can kind of like flip the narrative and they almost like are excited about, it's like a challenge, right? They're like, oh my God, I did it.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't, you know, I handed in the paper and I let the grammar mistake sit there. And the other thing is that, once you train yourself with these little things, When the bigger things happen in life that are out of your control truly, you're better equipped to deal with it. It's like you're inoculating yourself, you're preparing your brain. And then ultimately, like for a lot of people, sometimes like the worst case scenario for them is like, oh my God, what if I lose my job? Or what if I, you know, like, and, and that's like where the fear is stemming from. And then sometimes when the worst thing actually happens and it's not so bad, they're like, wow, now I feel like I can deal with a lot of other things. And a lot of that fear and anxiety subsides. So, you know, you have to think about micro letting go is kind of like preparing yourself

• 42:08Speaker 01

  for the bigger things that you can't control or the death of a loved one or whatever, you know, things that are gonna inevitably happen because that's part of life. So the more you practice the letting go, the more able you're equipped to handle things when they happen and you truly don't have control.

• 42:21Chris Duffy?

  I feel like that's directly relevant to why you're so in favor of people practicing boredom too. Is because we get so many messages, especially, you know, living in like a hyperproductive capitalist society that like every time should be, every instant should be used for something, it should be productive, you should be working towards something. And just using your time to do nothing, to truly be bored, to allow yourself comfort with not having a productive goal or productive output. That builds that same muscle in the way where then when we are not having things go our way, we can have a little bit more comfort with that. Is that, is that why you want people to practice boredom?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  You know, again, it's to tolerate also, you know, your own thoughts. Like a lot of time when something bad happens, whatever, you get these negative thoughts and then people distract themselves. And then maybe they turn to, you know, drugs and alcohol or, you know, shoplifting or whatever, you know, negative behavior, things to quiet the thoughts. But if you can practice, because being bored really means. Don't start filling your brain with other things to distract yourself. Let your thoughts flow freely and accept whatever comes to it. It's a meditative kind of practice in a way of like, whatever thoughts come up, let them come up, let them pass. You don't have to kind of attach to them. But when you're constantly distracting yourself, you're not training your brain how to do that.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  And I even say it with my kids, like, you know, they're like, you know, long car ride, but I'm bored. Like, can I have something like, so be bored. Good. I'm like, I want you to be bored and, you know, practice at an early age so that you can tolerate the sort of quote unquote, you know, distress of that. Because ultimately what happens is your brain passes through the uncomfortableness and then it gets to this, it starts self generating stuff. It starts to get creative, you know, so the kid's complaining for a little bit. And then after a while, they're like, all right, let's, they come up with some creative game to play, like a talking game, right? And so you gotta get through a little of the, the difficult patch to get to the good stuff. But it's also training to how to tolerate when negative thoughts come up and not turn to distractions. And I do that with, again, with patients, I'll assign them like,

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I want you to go for a walk today, like a nature walk or like notice the trees, noticing, and don't have your headphones in, don't even be listening to music. Just be with whatever's around you and notice the things around you.

• 44:46Chris Duffy?

  Here's a question that comes from one of the producers on our show, Nora. And I feel like fewer people experience boredom now than maybe they used to. They're on their phones, they're listening to podcasts or music or et cetera. Do you think that that has larger impacts on our mental state as a society? Or is that kind of thinking overblown? Basically, are we all more mentally ill now?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Look, I think it is certainly having societal impacts. Our attention spans are shortening, right? And, and we're having like, like people reading books, like if that's going down, right? Long form, like the formats, like people's attention is really is, is shrinking. I think that has all sorts of knock on effects, but really ultimately. The larger picture is that our brains, we're like these cavemen brains in a modern world. And our brains evolved to like be social and to have real face to face, human interactions. And the research shows that it's not just about being on screens or whatever, listening, you know, it's a podcast, whatever. It's about that, that you're doing that instead of

• 45:49Speaker 01

  the social interaction, looking at people face to face, learning how to, you know, social cues and emotional regulation and all of that. And so it's, it's what we're missing. And, and researchers that when you give people like technology breaks, they actually, their, their social skills increase because they're now getting the exposure for that. So it's recoverable to an extent. And I think we really need to be cognizant, especially of younger kids with, or developing brains of building in time for just pure, like for play, you know? Go out and play, interact with each other in real time, no screens, no audio, whatever. Cause that's what it is to be human. And that's what our brains and bodies were built to do.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  So I do think that, you know, whether mental health issues are going up because of, of, you know, modern technology, you know, it's, it's a larger question. But I do think the way to counteract that is to build in time for just play and, you know, being off screens, being off technology and being human.

• 46:50Chris Duffy?

  Well, Heather, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm always really struck by the fact that you are such a, an impressive and, and serious scientist and, and clinician, but also so open and creative and, and vulnerable and very human in your work too. You have, you have these two sides that are very well and uniquely married in you. So it's, it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. It's great to talk to you too, and I really enjoyed this. Thank you.

• 47:22Chris Duffy?

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Heather Berlin. You can preorder her new book, The Fine Art of Losing Control, right now. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can also buy my new book, Humor Me: How Laughing More Can Make You Present, Creative, Connected, and Happy. You can find out more about my live show dates and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is tightly controlled by a group of Type A overachievers. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Bellarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha-Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansuka Singmanivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBryan. Ryan Lash edited every single frame of this video, and Mateus Salas made sure all factual assertions held up to scrutiny. On the PRX side, though, we got some chill, laid-back, free spirits of audio.

• 48:07Chris Duffy?

  I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. The Joss. Thanks to you for listening. You were the ones who are really in control. Please, send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it. We'll be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care. Thanks for listening, and have a great week.

• 48:34Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 49:20Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by PayPal. This holiday season, don't miss your chance to turn "just looking" into "just bought it." Make it easy for your customers to say yes on the spot. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. And when you add Pay Later, you can turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96% of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users. So if you give them Pay Later flexibility now, it could help earn their loyalty all year long. PayPal is built for all business. Get started at paypal.com/business. PayPal data eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users defined as more than one Pay Later purchase in the past year.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Parloa. Look, most businesses want their customers to feel heard, not stuck waiting around for someone who can help. Nothing makes you feel less important than sitting on hold for hours explaining the same problem to the fifth person who picks up.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  But here's the thing, the bigger you get, the harder it becomes to show up the way you want to in each customer interaction. Parloa solves that problem. Their voice-first AI agents handle customer conversations in a way that feels natural, personal, and helpful. They work 24/7 across voice chat and email in any language with zero wait time. Plus, your team gets access to features like Lens, which flags issues in real time, and Navigator, which figures out why those issues are happening and what to do next. It's secure, scalable, and built to serve the customer. When AI works well, it shouldn't feel like AI. It should feel like you're being seen and heard and valued.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Unhold your customers with Parloa. Learn more at parloa.com. That's P-A-R-L-O-A dot com.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  We'll have room for fried cookies.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  OK, you never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 51:29Speaker 05

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Free phone? Oh, sign me up.

• 51:40Speaker 05

  Get that more for your money feeling only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 base on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro T-Mobile in the best 180 days.