How to find true love (w/ Francesca Hogi)

Love coach Francesca Hogi is dedicated to helping daters find “lasting love in the midst of a broken dating culture.” In this episode, Francesca shares her approach to analyzing romantic patterns and feeling more empowered in your love life. From discussing romantic manifestations to reflecting on bell hooks’ claim that humans are unskilled at love, Chris and Francesca talk about the ways you can be more open to finding love. Featured guest Follow Francesca Hogi on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dearfranny/?hl=en, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dearfranny/, and at francescahogi.com/ https://www.francescahogi.com/Buy How to Find True Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/1538769573 by Francesca Hogi Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDAudioCollective https://www.youtube.com/TEDAudioCollectiveFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Duffy?

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 0:34Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court, and that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 1:22Chris Duffy?

  You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and today's episode was recorded in front of a live audience in Vancouver at the 2025 TED Conference. This month on the show, we're thinking about love, and who could be a better guest for a love conversation than the author of How to Find True Love, Francesca Hoagie? Francesca is many things. She's an author, she's a love coach, she's a former competitor on the TV show Survivor. But above all else, Francesca is someone who really believes in the magic and potential of romance. But at the same time, she's very realistic about what love is not. So whether you are single and determined to stay that way, whether you are in a committed relationship, looking for love, or something else entirely, Francesca's

• 2:06Chris Duffy?

  got insights that I feel very confident are going to resonate with you. To get us started, here's a clip from Francesca's TED Talk.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  The fairy tale industrial complex has been lying to you.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Through a pervasive web of marketing, advertising, music, movies, and more, it's said that while you can't buy love, you can buy your worthiness of being loved. Its commodification of romantic love as a storybook fantasy can be summed up in three simple words: happily ever after. Happiness forever, if only you're lucky enough, and good enough, and good-looking enough, to be chosen by a high-status partner, ideally in a romantic comedy-worthy moment. Over the last 10 years, I have spoken to thousands of people about their romantic

• 3:03Speaker 01

  hopes and dreams, and I can report that for many, their vision of an ideal relationship is straight out of the fairy tale fantasy playbook. Which is no wonder, given that happily ever after is used to sell us everything from makeup to cars to chewing gum. We've incorporated this propaganda into our real-life approach to relationships, which disconnects us from love, which disconnects us from self-worth, and causes genuine confusion about compatibility. Instead of making us feel that love is an abundant, infinitely renewable resource inside

• 3:48Speaker 01

  of us, which it is, it tries to convince us that love is external and scarce. It's time to consider a new possibility for our collective romantic future. One that centers self-love, self-worth, and prioritizes making romantic choices in alignment with our authentic values. No purchase required.

• 4:13Chris Duffy?

  We're gonna be right back with more from Francesca after this short break.

• 4:25Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold, brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change.

• 5:09Chris Duffy?

  In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  This episode is sponsored by WeShare Health, an affordable alternative to traditional health insurance. While healthcare costs keep climbing every year, WeShare is doing things differently. It's a nonprofit built to put people first. No annual price hikes, no surprises. In fact, their membership prices haven't budged in five years. Members can pay up to 60% less than they would for traditional health insurance, saving up to $5,000 per year. Plus, members get real benefits: a nationwide PPO network with over 1 million physicians, unlimited telehealth, and access to more than 68,000 CVS Caremark pharmacies. WeShare goes beyond traditional health insurance, providing both extensive preventative and holistic care.

• 6:02Speaker 02

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• 6:17Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Whatnot. You know what makes shopping great? When it feels like an experience, like a conversation with someone who's just as excited about what you're buying as you are. That's what I like about Whatnot. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping app where you can hop into a live show, hang out and ask questions. And on the other side of the screen, sellers are building real thriving businesses. I recently joined a couple of live shows on their app and I found all sorts of great deals. I bought giant boxes of candy bars at a huge discount for Halloween and then I got a tool I needed for my home repairs. It's just such an interactive way to shop. It's really unlike any other way that I've bought things and it's a lot of fun. And not only can you shop, you can sell too. It doesn't matter if your business is big, small, or still just an idea.

• 6:59Chris Duffy?

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• 7:18Chris Duffy?

  Today, we're talking about love with Francesca Hoagie, author of How to Find True Love: Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships. This episode was recorded in front of a live audience at the TED Conference in Vancouver, British Columbia. Francesca is the author of the new book, How to Find True Love. It's really fantastic. I recommend it. I have a lot of things that I want to talk about in it. But Francesca, let's first start with kind of a really big question, which is, what is the purpose of love?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Ooh, oh gosh.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  No softball question. I love it. Well, I think that the purpose of our lives, maybe not the ultimate, but maybe the ultimate purpose of our lives is to learn to be more loving, more loving to ourselves, to other people, to learn how to give and receive more love. I really see us all on a lifelong love journey that has lots of different phases. And you know, maybe you're in a dating phase, maybe you're in a relationship phase, maybe you're somewhere in between, but I think that that's, that's what makes us truly human.

• 8:24Chris Duffy?

  And you have this line that you start with. It's really early in the book. It's literally on page one. That true love is an inside job.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:31Chris Duffy?

  So can you talk a little bit more about that?

• 8:32Speaker 01

  I don't think that I ever would have come to this conclusion if not for the fact that I have spent the last 12 years helping other people with romantic love. Because it's one thing to have your own experience and your own journey, but it's another thing when, in order to pay your bills, you have to help other people with love.

• 8:49Chris Duffy?

  Uh huh.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Right?

• 8:50Chris Duffy?

  It's a hard job.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  It's a hard job. And I started as a matchmaker. I used to be a corporate lawyer. And through a series of events, I wound up going to matchmaking school. And I became a matchmaker. And I was like so naive at the beginning. I was like, this is gonna be so great. I'm just gonna introduce everyone to their perfect partner. And I was very much in that mindset, which I now like really debunk in the book, which is like, it's really just about introducing someone to the right person. And you do that, and then everything else was gonna work out. I learned that that's not the case, right? And I learned that I would work with clients and, you know, I could see how... I had two clients who have basically the same sort of profile.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And for one, getting into a relationship would be really easy. And for another, it would be much more challenging. But the desire was the same. And I was like, okay, so what's going on here? And it really became obvious that we all have, you know, beliefs about love. We have ways that we think about love. We have ways that we feel about ourselves. And all of that is more important than how many people you meet. All of those things that we might think like, oh, how old you are, or how, you know, attractive you are, you know, conventionally speaking, or demographically where you are. It's just, it's like, oh, this is really actually about what's going on inside of you.

• 10:16Chris Duffy?

  One of the things that I would imagine you get a lot as a matchmaker is people telling you their list of what they're looking for.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:22Chris Duffy?

  And I thought one of the most interesting parts of the book to me is you talk about one of your clients who had this very, very specific type of person that they were looking for. But you say, "A client once said, 'Being with a black Christian man is my heart's desire.'" It's the only thing I'm open to. And then you say, for my client herself, black and Christian, that was her truth and the only kind of person she'd ever been attracted to, despite knowing people of many different backgrounds. If you feel similarly convicted to only be with someone of a particular group, that is, of course, your choice to make. However, the reason why you've made that choice is worth examining.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:55Chris Duffy?

  I thought that was a really interesting idea, and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  I think if we can imagine the most evolved, spiritually aligned and open, loving version of ourselves, like, we wouldn't see things like race and we wouldn't, none of these things that, these preferences that we have. We wouldn't have them, but we're human, right? So we have our preferences, but sometimes people really, really box themselves in and really work against themselves because they're so strict in their preferences. And I always say, you know, to all of my clients or anyone I talk to who's single, if you have a list of, you know, what you're looking for in a person, that's fine. That list could be, you could have a thousand things on that list, that's fine. But, first of all, you need to prioritize, right? Because that's not a human, that's a unicorn, right?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  But also, you need to just understand what everything on your list has to actually do with the relationship that you're going to have. Because there are a lot of things that people put on their list that doesn't come from what is actually in their heart's desire. It doesn't actually come from what they care about experiencing with their partner. It comes from their idea of who they should be with. For this particular client, you know, we really talked about this, and she's like, no, it's not, this is really what I feel called to have. And I'm like, great, I would never try to talk anybody out of that. But sometimes I hear people say things like, oh, I only want to be with somebody who's, you know, fill in the blank. And when I ask them, okay, well, why? And they'll just say things like, well, those are the only people who've ever been attracted to me.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Or, that's the only kind of person I've ever dated. Like, when people are talking about what they want, it's very often there's just a filter of, well, who do, who do, who do I think wants to be with me? And that's where I'm starting. And it's like, well, what if you just wipe the slate clean? You know, and one of the things that, um, you know, I'm always talking to my clients about, and I, you know, obviously talk about in the book, is moving past this idea of like, this perfect person that you see yourself with, and really think about, what do I actually want the relationship to feel like, right? What I want to experience with my partner? And so often, we use these external traits as a proxy for what we think the relationship will be.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  I mean, I work with all sorts of clients, but the majority of my clients are professional women who date men. So it's very common for me to hear something like, oh, well, I, I need somebody who has, you know, a certain level of education, or who makes a certain amount of money. And I'll say, okay, well, why? Because again, you can want whatever you want, but it's just, it's important to know why you want it. And I hear all sort, all the time, a version of, well, if I'm with somebody who has this level of success, this level of education, this level of income, then, then they'll be supportive of me. Then they won't be intimidated by me. Then they'll root for me, and they won't, but it's like, okay, well, that's what you really want. So what you really want is somebody who's going to be supportive of you. You want somebody who's going to root for you.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  You want somebody who's not going to be intimidated by your success. And guess what? There are plenty of people who make way more money than you do, and have more education, who won't meet that criteria. So rather than using the education and, you know, the resume as a proxy for what you really want, actually focus on what you really want.

• 14:14Chris Duffy?

  You talk about, people often think of standards, of having standards in dating, as meaning who they would date. Like, I would not date a man who is shorter than six feet. I would not date a woman who looks in this different way. And you talk about, the standards that we should care about are the standards for once you're in the relationship with a person.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:32Chris Duffy?

  How they're going to treat you, how you two will relate to one another. Those are actually the really important standards. But people tend to... Think about them less and often there's like this implicit idea that if I could get a man who was 6'3" and has blonde hair and green eyes and makes $250,000 a year, then it actually doesn't matter how he treats me.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Very often I'll hear things like, "Oh, well, you know, I'm not going to settle. I'm not going to settle for less than what I want." But it is these external characteristics. But then oftentimes you talk to people, you talk about their relationship history, you talk about their dating history, and you realize they're settling for trash in terms of like, you know, how they're treated, how much somebody really sees them for who they are, appreciates them for who they are. And that's part of this, you know, external focus. And I don't blame anyone because, you know, in our culture, we are very conditioned to be externally focused in general, and certainly when it comes to romantic relationships. And the idea of who's eligible and, you know, who's a catch.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  And it's not like, "Oh, this person's a catch because they're so respectful and they treat me so well." It's like, "Oh, this person's a catch because they have this kind of job, they look this certain way, they have these certain credentials." And so it's time for us to move past that.

• 15:50Chris Duffy?

  You also talk several different times in the book about how it's really important to whoever you are, not just at face value, accept the messages that we sometimes get from society and culture about desirability, or beauty, or datability. You talk a lot in the book about the messages that you've received as a black woman about who might be willing to date you and whether you are a desirable dating commodity or not, and how important it is to push back against some of those messages.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I wrote this book for everyone regardless of, you know, your race, your gender, your sexual orientation. However, I had to specifically talk to black women because we get so many messages as black women, like, "We're the least desired, we're the least favorited on dating apps, we're the least this, we're the least married." And there's so much, I mean, sometimes I'm like... There it seems like there's like a media conspiracy to make black women think that nobody wants to date you. And you really have to decolonize your mind from that because if you're seeing yourself inherently as there's who I am inherently is makes me therefore less desirable.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  I mean, first of all, I feel like if there's somebody who doesn't want to be with me because I'm a black woman, like, please, take yourself out of the running. Like, that's great. Like, bye, you know. It's much more productive to focus on the people who do want you. But we do have to think about how much am I holding myself back? How much am I? How much am I, again, assuming who is going to be interested in me because of, you know, these narratives? And this, you know, I'm speaking specifically about black women in this instance, but this is for anyone, you know? Because if you think, oh, I'm ex fill in the blank. Everybody has their blank that they can fill in that might make you think that you're going to be less desirable. But I also think there's a larger point here about how part of the conditioning that

• 17:46Speaker 01

  we get about romantic love is that we need to have so many options, right? And the more options you have, the better. And, you know, you can see that on dating apps, like people who are really trying to make themselves as marketable to as many people as possible, right? Like, I want to get as many matches as possible. I want to have as many options as possible. And I just really push back against that because it's like, you don't want, you don't want to date everybody. Why do you want everybody to date you? Right? And so it's actually a much more effective strategy to really know who you are, to develop a loving relationship with yourself, and then show up as yourself. Because how else will people recognize you as the right person for them?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  And how else will you know when you're with somebody, like, oh, yeah, this feels right for me, you know?

• 18:36Chris Duffy?

  On a previous episode of the show, we interviewed Priya Parker about the art of gathering. And something she said that it feels really parallel is she's like, "The way to have a really boring party is to make it an event that anyone would want to go to." Like, what you want is to come up with an idea where some people are gonna say, "That is not for me."

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:54Chris Duffy?

  Because other people then are gonna be like, "Oh, that's totally for me."

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:57Chris Duffy?

  And I feel like you're saying the same thing with dating, which is like, you want people to see who you are in a way where some of them are gonna go, "That is not my type of person."

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. I think that, and that's, and I think if people could have that attitude, like, they would save themselves so much more angst rather than feel like, "I need to be, quote, 'chosen,' 'I need to be liked.'" You know, a lot of people are dating from a place of wanting to be liked and wanting to be chosen more than finding somebody who they really like, right? And that, more of a mutual choosing. I had a brief period of time where I was on dating apps in the early days of Tinder. And I would always, because I'm just kind of a strange person, and I always wanted to lead with that. Because I'm like, "If you're not down with me being a weirdo, like, there's no point."

• 19:51Speaker 01

  You know? And so I would send these, like, weird messages to people. Because I just wanted them to, like, it was like my weeding out process, you know? Because there'd be people who'd be like, "Why are you asking me that?" And be like, "Okay, great, you're not my person," you know? But the people who are like, who could roll with me and be like, "Okay, that's a weird question, but I'm gonna answer it anyway." That was like, I'm like, "Yes, that's who I'm looking for." So I think everyone could do with being a little bit more weird and leading with your weirdness.

• 20:19Chris Duffy?

  I love that.

• 20:23Chris Duffy?

  We're gonna be back with more wonderful weirdness right after this break, so don't go anywhere.

• 20:37Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by ADT. It's that time of year again when life gets busy. Back to school, back to work, back to routine. When everyone is out the door and on the go, it's comforting to know your home is taken care of while you're away. ADT makes that part easy. Enjoying the little moments with friends and family is easier when you have one less thing on your mind. With their customizable systems that can be professionally installed, ADT has your home security covered. The ADT Plus app lets you access your whole system from your phone. You can arm, disarm, and even check live camera feeds. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT.

• 21:22Chris Duffy?

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 21:52Speaker 03

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• 22:30Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. We're talking about love, attraction, and relationships with Francesca Hoagie. Going back to this idea that you have to decolonize your mind a little bit and stop yourself from taking in all these messages that you've heard about whether you're desirable or not. Just on a practical level, how do you do that? What steps can a person take to actually make those changes?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I break the book down into four parts or four steps in this journey of finding true love. And the first step is to think bigger about love. So it's about your love mindset. And a big part of that is just literally confronting some of these beliefs that you have about love and these ways that you have been conditioned to think about love. And I'm never expecting anybody to have a 180-degree switch in a moment, though sometimes that does happen. But at least start to chip away and consider a different perspective, consider a different possibility. But also, it's important to actually be clear on, well, what do I think about love? What do I think is the purpose of relationships?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  What are those beliefs that I have about who wants to be with me or who I should be with? And literally write them down and look at them. And start to say, oh, is that even true? Is that always true? And just start to get more curious about some of these beliefs and assumptions that you have, rather than just assume that this is just how it is.

• 23:56Chris Duffy?

  There are so many really practical steps. And there's exercises and activities. But the four big steps to bring yourself into a place where you can find true love, you say, are step one, change how you think about love to work on your mindset. Step two, feel better about love in yourself, working on your heart set. Step three, connect with a higher love, soul set. And then step four, date in alignment with love, skill set. I found that reading this book and thinking about it, the idea that you have to change your mindset and the idea that you have to change your skill set and the way that you feel about yourself, those all really, they instantly were things that I could relate to. I feel like the one that I struggled with, at least initially, I mean, I think you do

• 24:41Chris Duffy?

  a really persuasive job of communicating it. But I felt like soul set was one that I initially struggled with a little bit because sometimes there's this idea that we have to manifest, we have to attract this into our lives.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  We do.

• 24:57Chris Duffy?

  But here's my initial hesitation with that is when I hear it like that, it seems like it can sometimes put blame on the people who aren't in relationships or have had bad luck. Like, it's not just random chance, it's your fault. You haven't manifested hard enough, you didn't attract. Like, the reason you're alone isn't because your partner did something wrong, it's because you didn't manifest hard enough. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I'd love to have you respond to that, because I think that's an idea out there in the world.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  It is an idea out there in the world, and yes, that is absolutely not what I'm saying. It's not about blame, but I think, okay, like even if we just take a step back and let's substitute romantic love with another area of life, right? Like, say it's your professional career. And is it your fault if you have had a professional career that's rocky? And maybe you've had a lot of jobs that haven't worked out? And maybe you keep running up against the same kind of obstacles over and over again? It's not that it's necessarily your fault, but it is your responsibility to say, okay, I am half of the equation here. So what can I learn from this, right? And what might I need to shift? Like, maybe I need to stop applying for these jobs

• 26:11Speaker 01

  that I think is the kind of job that I should have, when actually, it's not at all what I want to do, for instance, right? The soul set piece of the book was the hardest part to write, because I didn't want people to feel like I was blaming them, and I didn't want it to feel so woo-woo that it felt inaccessible, or like, you know. And I don't say make a vision board, it's not that kind of book, not that there's anything wrong with that. But I didn't want anyone to think that like, oh, she's talking about the soul, she's talking about manifesting love. It's really just understanding that, like, just as for some people, it's easier to make a friend. You tend to attract people into your life who are really great friends, or you tend to attract certain opportunities into your life

• 26:56Speaker 01

  with more ease than other people. It's not that there's anything wrong or bad about those other people, but there is something that can be learned and can be more aligned. This is not about being perfect. This is never about being perfect. And so manifesting is not about being perfect. None of this is about being perfect. But it is understanding that we do have certain patterns of things that we attract in our lives. And if you can get curious about that and start to think about, well, if I'm attracting something, if I have this pattern that keeps showing up that I don't want, then I see it as empowering to say, okay, actually, there's something that I can shift here. Not like, it's your fault and, you know, that's, you're doomed.

• 27:39Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, I also think that something you said that really resonated with me is thinking about this idea of like soul set and the idea of bringing yourself into a place where you're open to find love is also about like not believing that it's impossible. Because if you do believe it's impossible, even if it's right there in front of you, you kind of shut, you shut down the possibility.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:00Chris Duffy?

  So can I have you read that paragraph there?

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Okay. "Perfect faith at every moment isn't required. Remember that we don't have to be perfect to have true love. We already have love's perfection within us. So don't worry about that. Simply recognize that if you believe in a universe where you personally have no ability to have the love you want due to who you are, it's going to be extremely difficult for you to manifest true love. Belief that love is the strongest force in the universe and that nothing excludes you from its power is worth adopting for yourself. It also happens to be true."

• 28:34Chris Duffy?

  I really like that and it made me think of, I grew up in, in New York City. One time I was walking by H and H Bagels. And there was a man with a sign outside that said, hungry, please help. And I wanted to help him. So I went in, I was getting my own bagel and I bought another bagel and I went out and I gave it to him. And he said, truly, genuinely, oh, no, another bagel.

• 29:01Chris Duffy?

  And I was kind of like, you're in front of a store that only sells bagels.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Saying that you're hungry.

• 29:08Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, and I'm certainly not trying to put blame on him.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:11Chris Duffy?

  But I think that-

• 29:12Speaker 01

  He needed to manifest something different. He could do something different.

• 29:16Chris Duffy?

  I think that a parallel situation happens to many people in relationships.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:24Chris Duffy?

  Where they're like, "I'm out here looking for some sort of food and I just keep getting handed bagels." And they don't realize that if you moved 100 feet in either direction, you might have more options.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  It is definitely a very common thing that people approach dating in the exact same way over and over and over again. Choosing the same types of people, engaging the same dynamics when they're meeting people, and then ending up in the same type of relationship, and then being very frustrated and feeling like, "Why does this keep happening to me?" And it's, again, it's not about blame, but it is about you are in front of a bagel store, right? And you're asking for food, and so that's what you're gonna get. It's very helpful to reflect on your past experiences. And to like, really be like, "Okay, this is how it began, right? Then this happened, then this happened, then this happened." And there's so much commonality.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  And like, our patterns are not just happening to us without our cooperation. I mean, we are sort of on autopilot and we have the things that we habitually do. But it's not as if though, you know, you're doing things and you have all these different approaches and it just, the same thing keeps happening over and over again. Like, there is that agency that you have. And that's one of the things that I really want to convey, and I really tried to convey in this book, is that we have more romantic agency than we might think and we might have been kind of programmed to think. Because we are kind of conditioned to think that it's this romantic love, is this magical thing that just kind of happens to us, rather than see ourselves as co-creators.

• 31:02Chris Duffy?

  You, several times in this book, quote from bell hooks. And I personally love the way bell hooks writes about love. One of the things that you quote is bell hooks saying that most of us are unskilled at love.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:14Chris Duffy?

  And the other is about fantasy. And one of your clients who- Is maybe being held back by these fantasies of what a relationship should be like versus the reality of the people?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Chris Duffy?

  I'm curious to hear about those specific moments, but also maybe just more generally what Bell Hooks's work has meant to you in this, in the work that you do.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  You know, it's meant a lot. I, I think that there's such a rigor and a like a seriousness with which she looks at love, you know, including romantic love, that is often absent from a conversation about romantic love. And that has been, you know, very helpful to me personally and certainly in the work that I do to have that sort of elevation in, in how we think about love. Because we're very focused in our, in our culture on love as an emotion. So we want to feel love, but we are not as generally focused on love as a verb, as an action, as a thing that we do, as a choice that we make.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Bell Hooks said, we are generally unskilled at love because it's not something that, we get a lot of education around, right? We just, it's just like, oh, you just want to feel it. You just want to feel it and not do it. And I, I think her words have really given me a very tangible way to help to communicate to people, honestly, about like, this is actually a skill. Relationships are a skill. All the things that go into making a successful relationship work are actually skills and not just a, you know, a feeling. Yeah.

• 32:45Chris Duffy?

  You know, Bell Hooks has many books on love, but one is specifically about men and love. And you said that many of your clients are professional women who date men. I know that in my personal experience, I am a, a straight man. And I think that sometimes it can be harder to communicate about love, to understand, like access to all of these emotions because of all the social pressures around what is permitted within masculinity. And just in my own personal life, when I think about like, single people I know, I know so many unbelievably talented, smart, beautiful, single women who I would like recommend to anyone. And then I have single male friends who are weapons I would not inflict on an enemy.

• 33:31Chris Duffy?

  And I think that I'm not the only one.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  You're not the only one.

• 33:35Chris Duffy?

  Relationship where it's like, do you know anyone you could introduce me to? And I'm like, I do, but you do not want that.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  So what do you do?

• 33:42Chris Duffy?

  That's what I was gonna ask. What do you do? What do you do? How do you do it?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it is absolutely the case that, you know, toxic masculinity and patriarchy doesn't just harm women. It harms men, right? Because it harms many men's ability to access, you know, emotions like love and vulnerability and to deal with a lot of the discomfort of emotion and being human and being in relationship. So in general, yes, there are more men who have less skill at love and relationships than women do, absolutely. In an individual person's love journey, it's important to not let the predominant,

• 34:31Speaker 01

  what might be the predominant circumstance, start to impact you too much in terms of like, and what I mean by that is like, if I was looking for a job in a bad job market, you might be like, okay, yeah, this isn't a great job market, but you still like, you still could be pretty committed to getting a good job, right? And still know that like, even though most of the jobs in this market are not for me, like, I'm still gonna find a good job. And it's really, that's kind of the same mindset that you have to have, which is, you know, is every straight man in your city, town, or country gonna be a good match for you? No, absolutely not. But, you know, I believe that we have the ability to always find people who are actually great for us.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  But it might take you having a level of openness that you didn't always have, which doesn't mean, and I think when I say things like this, people are like, but I want, but I don't wanna have to date anybody, you know? It's not about dating just anyone, but it is about like saying, okay, what are the things that are the most important to me here? Because if I'm like, looking for a man who's gonna come like, fully formed and like, you know, all of the things. It checks all the boxes and has all of the emotional intelligence and has all of the level of and that's like, I'm looking for that and I'm not, and if I don't see that, then I'm like, okay, there's no one for me. But if you start to just like, focus a little bit more on, okay, what are the core, and you know, and one of the things I talk about in the book is relationship

• 35:58Speaker 01

  values, right? So like, what are these core relationship values, which I really think of as like your relationship needs? And you start looking for those things instead, right? So if you're like, okay, like for instance, I want to have a family, like and I want to, I want to be with somebody, I want, where we really prioritize our family, then like, start looking for men who have that versus looking for a man who has like, you know what I mean? Like it's, you just have to kind of like, not take everything as at face value and start looking a little bit deeper.

• 36:28Chris Duffy?

  Those values that you were saying, those are the foundation of true love.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:32Chris Duffy?

  But some of these you can build over time.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:34Chris Duffy?

  But some of them kind of need to be there from the start.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  They need to be there from the start.

• 36:37Chris Duffy?

  So like, certainly, physical safety needs to be there from the start.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:40Chris Duffy?

  Which of the other ones grow with time?

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:43Chris Duffy?

  And which ones are like, they, they have to just be there from day one? Because if they're not there, this is a clear, we have to leave, this isn't the right person.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, commitment can grow over time, absolutely. I think that intimacy grows over time. I think that respect has to be there from day one. Like, the idea that, you know, you have to earn somebody's respect is like, no, that's to me, like, the respect needs to be there and needs to be there from day one. And I think the safety needs to be there from day one. And those are the things that I feel are really, really, really critical. And then everything else does and hopefully will, you know, grow over time.

• 37:26Chris Duffy?

  I think also, if I can just give advice based on your book too, I think for, for men, I think that one of the things that I would say that is in this book is, there's a lot of cultural pressure against doing the first steps, like finding love in yourself and loving yourself and feeling like you're worthy. And like, your worth isn't because you got a good job, or you're able to fix things, or you have a partner who is attractive, right? Like, I think doing the work to be like, it's, I am worthy and I can love myself.

• 38:03Chris Duffy?

  There's not a lot of support for men to do that. And I think that doing that work is so important. And then the second thing I would say is there's just so much pressure on men to be able to like fix problems, to solve problems. And that is actually really unhelpful in relationships. Like instead to be able to be vulnerable and be with someone experiencing a problem rather than trying to solve it is a really big and challenging thing for most straight men in our society at least, I think.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with that, but I think, and tell me if you agree with this, Chris, I think that this is starting to shift. And I do think it's that more and more men are becoming more able to look a little bit deeper and to start to examine the relationship that they have with themselves. And I think that we are at a not great moment in our dating culture. And that's not fun for people who are dating, but I do think that the upside is that we're bumping up against the limits of what doesn't work.

• 39:05Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And that is actually good because now it's an opportunity for people to say, okay, I've been trying to do this thing this one way and that's not it. So it's time to actually start to do things a little bit differently. And I see there's this pushback. You know, there's a lot of men who are trying to really hold on to an old way of thinking. But I do think that there's also a new movement of men who are like, okay, I actually do have to get in touch with my emotions. My relationship with myself actually does matter. The fact that I don't feel worthy unless I have X, Y, Z, like that actually seems to be getting in my way.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Because I do believe that despite societal conditioning, that men want love as much as women do.

• 39:53Chris Duffy?

  Oh, I absolutely believe that.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:55Chris Duffy?

  On my optimistic days, I agree with you that we're moving in the right direction. But other days I wake up and feel like.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  And you look at the news and you're like, oh, God.

• 40:02Chris Duffy?

  Yeah. Other days I think like, what's the ascendant view of masculinity today?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Chris Duffy?

  And it doesn't seem like it's the good one.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I think conversations like this are. Helpful, because I mean, I have empathy for all of us. Because who teaches us about this? I mean, I used to hate when people would say to me like, oh, you need to love yourself more. What does that mean? Am I supposed to just wake up and be like, oh, my God, I'm amazing? Like, look in the mirror, oh, my God, you're amazing. Like, that's not helpful. And I have a whole chapter about self-love in the book, by the way. That's about tactics and how to really, you know, practice that. But but I think that the more tools that we give people, then the better it is, then the easier it'll be for men who want to actually have deeper connections, and women, everyone, regardless of gender, that then they'll be, oh, OK, there is a path forward.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Because it's not helpful to say to anybody, well, you just need to feel more worthy.

• 40:59Chris Duffy?

  You know, in dating, there's often this idea, and this big focus on the idea of finding the one, of having a soulmate. Can you talk about your philosophies behind soulmates or the one? How do you respond to people who have that idea?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  So I think that there's more than one for everyone. I think that the idea that there is only one perfect person is very unhelpful. We would never think that there's only one person who could be our best friend. There's only one person who could be, you know, our, a great mentor, or, you know, anything. And it's only romantic love that we tend to put in this special category. I think that soulmates come in lots of shapes and sizes. I think that we have multiple soulmates in our lives, and some of those are romantic, and some of them are not. And I think that the more expansive a view you have of love and of human connection, the more you will find the ones. They will come into your life more easily,

• 41:57Speaker 01

  and you will be able to recognize them and receive their love more easily.

• 42:02Chris Duffy?

  Amazing.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Chris Duffy?

  Well, Francesca Hoagie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you all so much.

• 42:11Chris Duffy?

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Francesca Hoagie. Her book is called How to Find True Love, and you can find out more about her and her love coaching and all of her incredible projects at francescahogi.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me: How Laughing More Can Make You Present, Creative, Connected, and Happy, is out now. You can fall in love with my book and find out more about my live shows and all the other things that I do at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a swoon-worthy team of dreamboats. On the TED side, we've got Heartthrob HQ, Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha-Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Blaney Lott, Tanzika Sun Manivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBrine.

• 42:52Chris Duffy?

  This episode was fact-checked by Matthias Salas, who passionately loves the truth. On the PRX side, they are looking deep into your soul while a gentle breeze ruffles their perfectly coiffed hair. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. We love you. Please send this episode to anyone and everyone as an audio valentine. You have to give one to the whole class. Those are the rules. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.

• 43:24Chris Duffy?

  It's been so much fun for me to talk to our guests about the interesting ways that we can take ourselves less seriously. And I've been enjoying it so much that I'm going to have another conversation with TED Talks Daily host Elise Hu about my new book, Humor Me, and it's going to be a virtual event on February 18th. If you want to hear that conversation, you can become a TED member to join us live to learn about the history and the science behind inside jokes, how to detect a fake laugh, and so much more. We're going to have a great time. Just visit ted.com/members to join. We're going to have a blast, and we'd love to have you there.

• 43:59Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human

• 44:42Chris Duffy?

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• 45:27Chris Duffy?

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• 46:02Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini. That's G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.