How increasing your happiness can help solve climate change (w/ Jiaying Zhao and Elizabeth Dunn)

The conversation around climate change is often bleak and terrifying, but it doesn’t have to be that way, says climate behavior scientist Jiaying Zhao, or JZ. In this episode, JZ and happiness researcher Elizabeth Dunn join Chris to discuss why we need to account for happiness in climate solutions. JZ and Elizabeth argue since happiness is contagious, making happiness-driven decisions go further in influencing behavioral change than fear-based tactics. They also talk about an anesthetic gas that releases more carbon than CO2 and why you should google if your bank is investing money in fossil fuels. Featured guest Follow JZ on X https://x.com/jiayingzhao, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaying-zhao-ubc/, and at psych.ubc.ca/profile/jiaying-zhao/ https://psych.ubc.ca/profile/jiaying-zhao/Follow Elizabeth Dunn at https://dunn.psych.ubc.ca/Learn more at https://happyclimate.org/Buy Leave the Light On https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/773541/leave-the-lights-on-by-elizabeth-dunn-and-jiaying-zhao/ Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDPods https://www.youtube.com/@TEDPodsFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksVote for our show in the Signal Awards for Best Advice & How To https://vote.signalaward.com/PublicVoting#/2026/shows/genre/advice-how-to podcast! For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Fill out our survey at bit.ly/BHSurvey6 https://bit.ly/BHSurvey6 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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  This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Something that I think about a lot is that if there was a magic pill that someone invented that could lower your risk of stroke, of heart disease, of inflammation, plus it would make you smell better and look more attractive, everyone would want to take that pill. The person who invented it would be very, very rich and people would be clamoring for more of it. But the thing is, that pill exists. It's just not a pill. It's flossing your teeth. And it has all of those benefits, but it's also kind of annoying and uncomfortable. And so, a lot of people don't do it at all. And even people like me who try to do it, I don't like flossing. I frequently will skip a night because I'm just like, oh, I can't be bothered

• 2:58Speaker 00

  to floss right now. It doesn't feel exciting. It's not fun. Even though it is as close to that incredible magical pill as I am ever going to get. The reason I think about flossing so much is not because I'm thinking about my teeth. It's because I feel like a lot of the ways that we could tangibly improve ourselves and tangibly impact the world around us, they're kind of like flossing. Sure, they're effective. Sure, it would make a difference, but it's kind of annoying to do. It's certainly not exciting. It's not fun. And today's guests, they want to change that. They are scientists who study human behavior and they are trying to solve the problem that most people think that combating climate change, one of the most important things we can do for our survival as a species, is not

• 3:40Speaker 00

  especially fun. They think that the key to saving ourselves and the planet is not about depriving ourselves, but about finding ways to make things more exciting. Elizabeth Dunn and Jay-Z are the co-authors of the new book, Leave the Lights On: How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species. And here's a clip from Jay-Z's TED Talk explaining their idea.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone. I'm Jay-Z. Not the cool rapper, but the professor trying to cool the planet through behavior change. The other day, I gave my students an assignment. I asked them to come up with individual actions they can take that serve two functions: reduce greenhouse gas emissions and make themselves feel happier. They did a great job coming up with actions to reduce emissions, but they had a much harder time with the happiness part. One student told me that he wanted to come back on cheese. But right after he said that, he got really sad.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, my students are not alone. When most people think about climate action, they immediately default to things that have to give up for the planet. This mindset is so ingrained in us, partly because the current narrative on climate action is about personal sacrifice.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Drive less, eat less meat, shop less. Less, less, less. Now, I'm a behavior scientist, so trust me when I say this. This framing doesn't make us feel great. If anything, it makes us feel shameful and guilty. And those negative emotions are not conducive to long-term behavior change, because they make us retreat and disengage.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  If the future of our planet depends on a few people willing to make personal sacrifices, we're not going to make it. So what should we do instead?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  The aha moment came to me at the end of a faculty meeting when my colleague, Elizabeth Dunn, approached me and asked, can we make climate action feel happy instead of miserable? I said, of course. But then it struck me that I don't think anyone ever connected happiness to climate action. So Liz and I sat down to do exactly that.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  We are going to hear a lot more about Jay-Z and Liz's ideas for how to make effective change also feel like a lot of fun in just a moment.

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• 9:30Speaker 00

  And we are back. Today, we're talking about how to get ourselves and others to make the necessary choices we need to make by having a lot more fun.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dunn. I'm a happiness researcher and a professor at the University of British Columbia.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jay-Z. I'm a climate behavioral scientist at the University of British Columbia.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  And we're the authors of the new book, Leave the Lights On.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Okay, so Jay-Z, Liz, how did you two start working together?

• 9:55Speaker 03

  So it all started with a bike ride. I was biking to work at UBC and I was thinking about climate change, as you do. And I was thinking about how it's kind of a bummer that my life's work on happiness has no bearing whatsoever on the most important existential challenge of our time, namely, climate change. And then I started thinking about biking. And I started thinking how, you know, I choose to bike because I arrive at the office in a much better mood than if I drive. But of course, it's also one of the most sustainable forms of transportation. And then it sort of dawned on me that, in fact, so many of the things that we need to do in order to fight climate change are actually good for our own happiness. So when I got to work, I made a beeline for Jay-Z, who's really one of the world's leading experts on the behavioral side of climate change. And I kind of spilled out this idea to her.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  So Liz asked me this question, can we make climate action feel happy instead of miserable? And that question gave me a lightbulb moment in my head. That's when I realized happiness is the missing ingredient in the fight against climate change.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  And you talk in the book about how that was something you hadn't actually thought about much before at all.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  I have never heard the word climate change and happiness in one sentence.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  And in a lot of ways, I mean, there's a very funny passage in the book where you talk about why you two are kind of an odd match to be working together, even though you were friends. And why are you an odd match, Jay-Z?

• 11:14Speaker 04

  Well, I work on behavior change and I was deep in the doom and gloom narrative. And in fact, I think the day Liz talked to me, I saw a headline of like the warmest record of the year, you know, one of those negative headlines. And I was, again, trying to figure out what should we do? And I haven't even thought about the idea of joy or happiness. I kind of represent the typical approach to climate change and how behavioral science can contribute to that. And Liz brings her happiness lens and expertise. And I had never even thought these two go together.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  So Liz, I feel like a lot of times when we're dealing with a serious issue, there is this idea that if we make it fun, or if we focus on enjoyment, that we're kind of cheapening the issue, right? Climate change is really serious. A lot of people could die, could lose their homes, could lose their livelihoods. It's going to exacerbate inequality. There's all these reasons why it's not funny or fun. But your research has shown that that actually is maybe more important than we find the fun in it, rather than less.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think people misunderstand happiness. People think of happiness as being this very self-focused, self-interested emotion. And in fact, what some of my research shows is that actually doing good things for others and for the world is actually a really powerful source of happiness. And so happiness is both a result of doing good things, and it can be an engine for doing good things. Because happiness can be very energizing. So when we feel happy, we're more likely to think of novel, creative solutions to problems. And we feel sort of capable of taking action.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  Is that because, like, happiness is actually this fleeting goal? And if we try and pursue something that's meaningful, then we actually find happiness along the way? Or is it because happiness as a goal in itself is a valid goal, and this is the way to get it? Do you know what I mean? Like, there's kind of a difference there?

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's just to do with the nature of positive emotions. So if you think about a time where you felt really happy, right, it's energizing. You feel like you can, you know, go get things done, right? Versus, I think, you know, a problem in the climate change movement right now is that a lot of people feel demoralized, and for good reason. But when people feel depressed, they don't get stuff done. And so I think happiness can kind of renew our energy. It can also be really helpful as a buffer against stress. So we're more capable of sort of dealing with stress and setbacks if we can kind of generate some positive emotion, we can actually bounce back faster. So if we want, for example, our climate activists to be really successful, we need

• 13:54Speaker 03

  to inject some joy for them.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  So Jay-Z, you're someone who obviously cares a lot about climate change. I mean, you have spent years thinking about this. You dedicated your professional life to this. How has thinking about the happiness side of it and trying to inject some joy into the work, how has it changed, like, your personal experience of working on climate change?

• 14:14Speaker 04

  So I think of happiness as the first principle of behavior change. It's true for, you know, worms like sea eagles, to pigeons, to fish, to mammals. This is how we train our pets, train our children. This is, happiness is nature's reinforcer. If you do something and you feel happier, you're going to do it again. And you can do it more. You can do other things. That also brings you happiness. This is how I think of, you know, how to get people to change their behavior is you need to reinforce their behavior. And that's the missing element of the climate action that we try to champion these days. We tend to capitalize on emotions like guilt, or shame, or anger, or anxiety,

• 14:56Speaker 04

  to get people to act on climate. That is not the right approach. So the way I've been approaching this personally, I predict this will make me happier, so I do it. But if I feel that you're trying to, you know, use shame or guilt, trying to, you know, get me to do something for a different purpose or reason, then I would probably not do it. Let me give you an example. Eating more fruits and vegetables. I never thought eating a plant-based diet would increase happiness. And this is actually, we'll get into a whole chapter in the book. As now I increase significantly my veggie and fruits intake every day, and I do feel great. So at least personally, and I try to tell everybody around me, do something that brings you joy, that makes you come alive. And that's the energy we

• 15:41Speaker 04

  need for, you know, for the climate.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  I'd heard a lot about how we need to individually make changes to stop the climate crisis. And then I heard this whole backlash, where it's like, actually, that whole idea that individual actions, that your individual carbon footprint matters, that is a whole distraction that's been pushed by big oil companies, right? Like BP funded this whole campaign. So then I heard, actually, what you individually do doesn't matter. What matters is what the government and what corporations do. So the rest of it is a distraction. And I think your work together strikes this really interesting line between those two, where it's not saying that it should be on an individual to solve the whole climate crisis, but it's also not saying that an individual choice doesn't matter at all.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  Can you kind of walk us through where the line is between the two? Because I hadn't heard this before in talking about climate action.

• 16:32Speaker 04

  So our view is they complement each other. Climate activists actually don't really like our work, for the reason being, they think it's, you know, by promoting individual action is a distraction, as, you know, the traditional narrative, from system change, from what we need from government and businesses. And I think that's a false dichotomy. I think they really complement each other. So far, we've been pushing governments and businesses on climate, reduce emissions. That hasn't got us far. And I think the missing element is the collective individual behavior change. And that can take many forms. So for instance,

• 17:12Speaker 04

  it could be people calling on governments. We spend the last chapter on collective action or spirals. How do you make yourself contagious? So we can, you know, get others on board. That's the start of a social movement.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  The contagious idea, this is a way that in individual action can have a much broader effect. So this is something that was new to me, right? This is so different than saying, what you need to do is turn the light off. That's what's going to solve climate change is every time Chris leaves the room, Chris turns the light off. And that, I think, can lead to a lot of people, right, me included, to feel like, oh, shame on you, you're being scolded. No, no, no. And you even talk about how you had a boyfriend who was, not me, but also named Chris, who would constantly scold you when you didn't turn the light off when you left the room. And you talk about how, in the big picture, that doesn't make a huge difference. But the contagious effect of one person doing something, this is really fascinating to me. And you talk about how if you are in a neighborhood and

• 18:08Speaker 00

  you put up a solar panel on your roof, there's a lot of data that shows that that is actually not an individual action only. Can you explain why that is?

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, so if you install solar panels on your roof, your neighbor is more likely to install solar panels. And in fact, people who drive by and see your house can be influenced as well. So we actually don't realize how much our own choices are influencing those around us. And this is where joy is a really interesting catalyst, because if you're doing something that actually looks really enjoyable, then it's going to be more attractive. So Jay-Z, for example, just bought an EV that is really cool. And now I desperately want one. And she loves it. She's always talking about how great it is. And so this is, you know, making her behavior extremely contagious to me. So if we can embrace some of these actions and be excited about them and share that excitement with others, it

• 19:02Speaker 03

  makes others want to copy us.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  I feel like the times when I feel worst about climate action are when I am cleaning out a peanut butter container. Like, that actually is when I'm like, oh, God, I need to clean the peanut butter out of the container so that I don't just throw it away because that will make me a bad person. And that's when I feel like so frustrated. And then the times when I feel best actually are when I'm not thinking about climate at all, but I'm doing something that I now realize is good. And here's an example of the contagious effect is I have to drop my kid off at their preschool. And I used to drive, even though it's close enough that I probably could walk, but there's a really big hill and so it'd be, it would be a hard walk in a stroller. And then a lot of the other parents I noticed were biking and they had their kid in the back in a kid's seat.

• 19:47Speaker 00

  And so it took me a little while, but eventually I thought, okay, I'll do the research and I'll get a kid's seat on the bike. And I did not do this because I thought this will lower my carbon footprint or will make me more sustainable. But I started doing it because all the other cool parents were doing it. And then I had a great time and my kid has a great time going to school on the bike. And I read your book and realized like, oh, that is actually an example of where someone who maybe was doing it for the climate reason, then influenced all the other parents at the preschool and now there's this whole social pressure to ride your kid on a bike, which actually is a really fun way to get them to school.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's a perfect example. And it also highlights something that's really important about the interaction between individuals and systems, right? So, you know, it wouldn't be fair to ask a parent to put their kid on a bike in an area where it was unsafe to ride a bike, right? And so this is where it's extremely important for governments and communities to, for example, install, create, you know, safe, protected bike lanes or special bike roads. And then, you know, for individuals to actually take advantage of it, right? Because if governments build these things, but nobody uses them, it doesn't go anywhere, right? So I think the sort of ideal situation is where governments invest in that kind of infrastructure, you know, maybe a few parents say, oh, this seems safe enough. I'm going to put my kid on this bike and we're going to go to school.

• 21:04Speaker 03

  And then they arrive looking in a great mood, the kids all smiles and you're like, oh, why am I driving? Like, I can start doing this too. And then we get that upward spiral and that's exactly the kind of sort of joyful climate action that we want to see.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Okay, we are going to take a quick break and then we will be right back.

• 21:29Speaker 00

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• 24:27Speaker 00

  And we are back, you know, again, thinking about the individual responsibility versus the corporate and the government responsibility. That's kind of like a, in a really easy for me to latch on to way of like, it's probably pretty hard for me to make the United States of America make a giant energy investment as an individual, but it's actually totally reasonable that I, as one dedicated person, could get my local city council member to at least consider painting a bike lane on the street. That feels a lot closer to like, I could actually have an effect on that. The other part, though, of the dichotomy between like individual action and corporate action that you all talk about, that I thought was really compelling is the idea that we

• 25:10Speaker 00

  may not all have the immediate levers to power for every corporation or for every large institution, but many of us actually do have a lot more power in our specific place that we work. And a lot of times people aren't thinking about that. And there's this example you give of a gas, which I'd never heard of, called desflurane gas. Jay-Z, can you tell the story of desflurane gas? Because I think that really illustrates for me how an individual can have a huge effect on the climate crisis. And it may be a way that people don't necessarily think that they have power.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, so this is a study from our friend Andrea McNeil, who's a physician, a surgeon at Vancouver General Hospital. So what she discovered, first of all, was a lot of the anesthesia, anesthesia gas that she uses for surgeries is horrible for the climate. So desflurane, I think, in particular, is, I think, thousands times more potent than CO2 and it leaks. So it actually leaks more than they use for surgery. So what she did in her study that we conducted together was she just swapped out, you know, where the gas tank was placed in the hospital. So you can't really ban it, but what they did in the hospital is they make that desflurane

• 26:26Speaker 04

  gas tank slightly harder to reach for the surgeons or the anesthesiologist. And they, they replaced it with something that's better for the climate. They put the alternative as the easier to reach option. So now I think surgeons just use that gas as default. And it's actually more effective and it's better for the climate. So it's a simple kind of swap, just by placement in the room, can make a huge impact on both the clinical efficacy and also climate.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  I think, you know, these times where it's like everyone wins, right? Like you swap out the gas that is really bad for the climate with one that is better for the patients and better for the climate. Those are really easy to celebrate, but even in a win-win-win, it's hard sometimes to do it. And so what I love about that story is that someone was thinking like, well, why do we use this thing that is, I've learned is bad for the climate? Is it actually necessary? Could I, in my own workplace, just say like, maybe let's prefer a slightly better option? And that option can have really outsized effects, especially if you work at a hospital. Now, this is a hard question. I don't know that there's like an easy answer to this, but if people are listening to this and they're thinking like, how can I find my version of desflurane gas?

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Like, how do people go about looking for that without being a PhD in, in climate change? Without knowing like this random gas is actually really bad? How can you do that in your own life?

• 27:49Speaker 04

  One example of the gas is money.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  So one thing we discovered, this is actually one of the biggest, biggest surprises we learned in the book is it's not so much what you buy, it's where you keep your money. So every thousand dollars you keep in a savings account in one of the major US or Canadian banks is generating the, you know, the same amount of carbon emissions as one flight from New York to Seattle.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  The reason being the banks are using your money to invest it in fossil fuel industries. And that's why it's generating, it's you know, almost secondhand emitting a lot of carbon or greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. A lot of people don't know that. They thought, oh, I should be careful with what I buy, what I purchase, maybe I should, you know, not fly. Great, not flying is helpful, but if you have savings account in a typical bank in North America, that is where your desfluring gas is. It's actually has the biggest carbon impact of your money or investments than any, any shopping that you can do.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  Okay, so let me ask you just like practically, I have some money in a savings account. It's not a giant amount of money, but like I have some money in savings account. If I move that money, where should I move it? And should I say something like, should I call the bank and be like, hey, by the way, the reason you're not getting my small chunk of change is because of climate change?

• 29:12Speaker 04

  So I, I've done that with my bank. I literally, I, I did not call them up because, because they never answer.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, classic.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  I walked in, I talked to them to say, you know, hey, what are you doing with my investments? And they were obviously being incredibly avoidant. Oh, well, you know, we're, we're, we're doing well, giving you a return of whatever, like 10% in the last couple of years. I don't know, that's not my question. Like where are you investing my money? And then they said, well, we can't really trace your individual investments. So they gave me a bunch of examples and they said, you know, actually you're all paperless. So you, you, you have all electronic communication with us. So you're saving a lot of carbon by not using paper. Like that is, that is not what I ask about my, where my money goes. So they would never give you a right answer if they're not, you know, doing the right thing or the climate friendly thing.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Whereas Liz's bank is entirely different, so.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  So I Googled this just very, and this is a great, easy, easy thing you can do without having to make any phone calls is just Google, you know, does my bank, type in the name of your bank, does my bank invest in oil, gas or coal companies? And you know, when I Googled that for my credit union, which is a really wonderful climate friendly credit union, the very first link contained a clear and unambiguous statement. We do not invest in oil, gas or coal companies. I'm like, perfect. Honestly, if your bank has the answer you want, it is not complicated. And you know, I will be the first to say as a happiness researcher that like switching banks does not sound like the most fun way you could possibly spend a Saturday. But here's the thing is you do it once and you reap the carbon savings for years.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  So you know, particularly, I think if you're somebody who loves steak and international travel, then switching banks might actually be a more joyful alternative for you than changing your diet or your travel.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Do you think that because the two of you are involved in behavioral science, that you are less interested in moral purity and more interested in results? Do you think that that is a byproduct of your work?

• 31:13Speaker 04

  We actually have the exact title in the book called moralization. Wait, math is better than moralization. I think we tend to moralize climate change and a lot of social issues. And I think that's the kind of the, the tactics of climate action is moralize it. This is the right thing to do. This is, you know, for generations to come, we have to do this, this, you know. Again, I, I think that's kind of productive. That's not resonating for, I would say more than half of the population. It's resonating a lot for climate activists. That's why, that's a predominant narrative out there. But why moralizing is bad, I think, other than polarization, we should, we should look at the kind of the, the, the common ground that's kind of shared by most people, which

• 31:57Speaker 04

  is they actually don't really care about the moral issues here. They care about what, what this matters to them. Okay, so what we try to do in the book is offer them facts. This is the kind of combinations of different things, of the, the different items, behaviors, choices that you make. With this menu available to them, they can make the right choices or not right. The best choices given their circumstances. So that's why with facts of emissions can be empowering. Because given where you are, your income, your, you know, where you live, you can really improve your happiness and actually make a real dent on carbon emissions.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  This is the thing that I wrestle with because I, I like the moral purity of like what we are doing is good and to not do this is bad. But then I don't always do it all the way. And if I don't do it all the way, I sometimes fall into the trap of being like, should I even do it at all? And I think a lot of people are probably like me where it's like, you know, I will not eat any meat at all. And then if I slip and have a turkey sandwich, then it's like, wow, I might as well just eat hamburgers for the next three months. And that's actually not, like logically, that doesn't track, but emotionally it tracks for me. When I think about, for example, like you talk a lot in the book about how one of the biggest, most impactful choices we can make is what we eat, right?

• 33:23Speaker 00

  That if you were to switch to a fully plant-based diet, it would make a really big difference. But even just cutting back on meat. And when I think about it for myself, right? Like if you ask me, why are you not vegan, Chris? I don't have a good answer. Like I'm like, yeah, it seems like it would be probably better for my health and certainly better for animals and probably better for the environment. And like, I just don't do it.

• 33:45Speaker 04

  Well, partly because vegan food sucks.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  But some of it is really good.

• 33:49Speaker 04

  Well, some, some.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 04

  If you live in a Buddhist temple, they have the best vegan food out there. I'd say if I live in the temple, I would eat vegan every day.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Uh, but the thing, the reality is at least in North America, it's hard to find vegan food. And still, if you find vegan food, they, they don't taste that great. I mean, you would do it once or twice, just show off, oh, you know, I ate a plant-based meal, but it's not going to last. The, the thing is moral, like the, the virtual signaling, anything you do for moral reasons is not sustainable if you don't truly believe in it.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  I want to push back on that just a second and please tell me if I'm wrong, but I have several friends who are vegan for moral reasons and they have been vegan for years. And even just knowing them, it actually does make me think twice before I purchase meat. It's not that I don't do it, but I think like, well, what would my friend Zach think? What would my friend Nikki think, right? Like I do think like, oh, they, they would not approve of this. And I think there's something kind of helpful about that, but, but then I'm not. But if I do, I think if you look, if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'm vegan, I'll look back and I'll go, well, that was the seed that planted me becoming vegan.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  But I think if you are doing something because of the fear of scolding and social judgment or looking bad in other people's eyes, I think that can really lead you to even not want to know what, you know? So I was chatting with somebody yesterday about our work and he was interested in, in travel, but then he was like, actually, no, I don't want you to talk to me about travel because you're going to tell me not to fly.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, don't tell me.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  I don't want to know, right? Um, and so it's that I don't want to know, I don't want the information, I don't want to be told, I don't want to hear about this anymore, that I think is a problem. And what I said to him is actually, I'm, I'm not going to tell you not to fly. Like, let me tell you how to fly better. Obviously, if you want to give up flying completely, that's going to make a huge positive difference in terms of your carbon impact. But if you just get into the math, you can make more sort of fine-grained decisions that really do make a difference. So, you know, I think sometimes we think of flying the way we think about eating meat where it's like, oh, well, I'm stepping on a plane, so I might as well go to Thailand. You know, I'm gonna have this bite of this turkey sandwich, I'm going to eat five burgers, you know? And in fact, it's, it's just wrong, right?

• 36:06Speaker 03

  Like, so in fact, short flights don't really make much of a difference in terms of carbon impact. So if you want to go somewhere on vacation, but you're going to take an hour-long flight, it's actually pretty trivial in terms of the carbon impact. It's really those long haul international flights that make a difference. You know, another small thing you can do is taking non-stop flights. So it's really the takeoff that is disproportionately carbon intensive. So just, you know, sometimes it costs a little bit more, you might have fewer options, but just investing in that non-stop flight is going to both save you time, which is great, and also cut your carbon. And so again, I think if we can say to people, hey, look, I'm not going to moralize here and say you can't do these things that you enjoy. Instead, like, let's just look at the math and figure out how you can have the lifestyle

• 36:50Speaker 03

  that you want in a little bit lower carbon way.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  This is where I'm interested in the, you two thinking about it from like a behavioral science perspective, right? Because when you're thinking about the results rather than what is like the purest answer, you actually find some ways that you can make a really significant impact. I, I think that when it comes to food, the label system that you were helped implement in the University of British Columbia Dining Hall around the carbon cost of each meal, that is a really interesting story to me where you see like the cost of purity, right? Where if you just do it as good versus bad versus the cost of more information moving us in the right direction. Can you tell the story about those, those labels?

• 37:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I worked with the chefs at UBC to introduce carbon labels on the menu. So the students are informed about the carbon intensity of their choices. So we put up red, yellow, green, so just like traffic lights of a lot of different dishes. So red being the most intensive, green being the best for the climate. And what we found was after introducing the menu, the yellow dishes increased the most. So the green dishes increased, but not, not a ton. The reason being, when they know this is the, the red dish or the, this is the food with the highest emissions, like mostly like the burger. They're surprised. They didn't know that. And then they switch to the next best thing.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  As opposed to going completely falafel or, you know, a vegan choice. Because vegans are less than 1% of the population. It's hard to stay vegan. So, yellow increased, red declined, and that's the finding. And it's a very kind of subtle implicit cue that we introduced to the environment that shaped people's choices significantly. It's not to shame them. It's not to say, no, don't do that. Eat this instead. I think just that information alone has an impact on behavior. And alas, we didn't have a huge pushback from the students. They actually like it. They want to see more of it.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  So if you can get people from a destructive choice to a less destructive choice, this is where like, that's the cost of purity, right? It's easy to say, well, they should all do green. But what they really should do is not do red.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  And I think striving for perfection is exhausting, right? So I actually don't want you to spend time scraping the peanut butter out of your jar. It's not going to make that much of a difference. And it just sort of makes you hate life and want to find reasons to not believe in climate change, right? It's like, and so instead, just thinking like, hey, if there's little things that you can do that do make a difference and actually are perfectly enjoyable, you know, then those are just going to be so much easier to stick with.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  I think one of the other things that people often don't realize is the big climate choices, where we live and how we live, right? So like, not just do we drive, but do you have kids? Do you have pets? Those kinds of big identity questions. And this is a place, I think, where that purity really rubs people the wrong way, right? Because you tell me like, I can't live in my community, or I'm not supposed to have kids, or I'm not supposed to have a pet. That's where people say like, I just am going to draw a line here. But this is where I think that next best option is a really, to me, like, feels like a real possibility for getting a lot more people on board with making changes, which would have a huge impact together.

• 40:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think people love pets. Pets are one of the best things you can do for your happiness, to be honest.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Okay, we got to talk about your pet.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  So my, sure. I have two rabbits. They're vegan, so they're great. But last year, we adopted a dog. So dogs and cats are notorious for climate reasons, because they're mostly carnivores. They eat a lot of beef and lamb diet. But my dog, actually, of course, she has to eat some protein. I actually fed her seafood and poultry mostly. These are low carbon, and she loves it. But it also helps that she's somewhat, you know, not, her stomach is sensitive to beef. So that makes it easier to switch. But I think there are still things that we can do. Even if you have children, or pets, or live in the most carbon-intensive states, you can still, there are still things that you can do to lower your emissions.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  There are smart trade-offs we need to make in our lives that I think can substantially lower our impact on the environment. So thinking clearly, you know, how many kids to have, maybe not seven. I think Liz, you said the magic number is two, is that right?

• 41:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, in terms of happiness, it looks like, you know, having one or two kids is good for happiness. Three or more, we start to see it flip around a little bit. And, you know, I think this notion that if you care about climate change, you shouldn't have kids is really a mistake. Because for one thing, like, having kids is part of the magic of life. And so to tell people that we shouldn't do that just seems self-defeating. And also, we want our species to survive. It's not the planet is going to be fine. The planet is going to be here. It's like our species and other species that we should be concerned about. And so, you know, we want people to keep having kids. And in fact, Jay-Z, one of her students, actually published the sort of seminal article that's been cited as, you know, in the media,

• 41:59Speaker 03

  as suggesting that people should not have children if they care about climate change. And that was never what he meant to communicate.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was really have one fewer child.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  I'll also just say, as a parent to two children, that there are many reasons, not climate change-related, why I would say having three or more children seems really difficult. So I admire the ability to do it, but I also think that not the hardest argument in the world, to me. Let's talk about, just like a regular person who's listening to this. What should they do to make some changes for themselves? But also, what should they do to make some changes that would have an impact on their community?

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, so one thing is to think about, you know, where are you choosing to live? And of course, you know, you may be very committed to the community in which you live, and that's not on the table for you. But in fact, the average American moves about a dozen times in their lives. So when you're thinking about moving, even just taking climate into account, and it turns out, you know, it's just incredible the difference in your carbon impact that you have as a function of where you choose to live. So, for example, if you run an air conditioner in a typical living room for a week here in B.C., because we have clean energy, you're going to emit about eight pounds of carbon. So like, the weight of a newborn baby. You run that same air conditioner for a week in Wyoming, you're going to emit 1,000 pounds of carbon. So like, the weight of a full-grown horse.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  To the extent that you have some choice about where to live, choosing to live in a place with clean energy is going to make a massive difference for your carbon impact. And by making that choice, you're actually sending a signal. So when we choose to leave a place that has dirty energy and move to a place that has clean energy, we are sending an important signal to governments that, hey, this is a factor that people care about. That's an interesting example of something people don't necessarily think about, but that can make a huge difference. And although it's an individual choice, it actually exerts pressure on governments, too.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  And it also makes me think, right? Like, if you live in Wyoming and you want to stay living in Wyoming, then the answer is like, how do you make it so that your energy sources get cleaner? But if you don't feel attached to being in that place, then how can you move to a place where your energy sources already are cleaner? And both of those are going to have really big impacts on climate change in the long run.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  It's not that you're doomed if you live in Wyoming. There's still things you can do to lower your impact. For example, if you can afford to switch to renewable energy, that's number one for your home. Two is just get an EV. Even driving an EV in a kind of a carbon-intensive state can still reduce your, you know, emissions by at least a third in the U.S.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  I want to ask you about the role of creativity. Because I feel like creativity and fun is a real big piece of happiness. But it's also obviously something that you two care about, right? Being creative about how we imagine the future, being creative about how we imagine our current lives, and how that can lead to a better future. So broadly, will you talk about creativity? But then, more specifically, will you tell me a little bit about the Toony Party, which I think is a good example of creativity?

• 45:00Speaker 03

  There's a lovely tradition in Canada of having a Toony Party. So our $2 coins are called Toonies. And I started throwing these for my son when he was little. And the idea is that, you know, when you're going to a million children's birthday parties, you're constantly buying these like, random Lego sets or whatever, that who knows if the kid is ever even going to play with them. Huge waste of materials. You know, often the kid just ends up crying at some point as they're like overwhelmed by everything. And so, the idea with the Toony Party is that instead of bringing a gift, each kid comes with a Toony. And then the kid, the birthday kid,

• 45:43Speaker 03

  gets to keep half the Toonies for themselves, and then they give half the Toonies away to a charity of their choice. So I did this with my son when he was younger. And he decided on the SPCA as his organization where he wanted to donate. And actually, you know, one thing we did was we actually went to the SPCA and brought in like, this giant pile of Toonies that he'd collected from all his friends. And he got to meet the dogs that he was helping. It's no accident that I study generosity and happiness. Like, I kind of know how to do this. You want them to see the impact of their good deed. But it's really just like, a beautiful win-win for everybody. Because it's sort of a learning experience for the kid. They get to have this positive experience of generosity. They get to buy one thing for themselves that they really like.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  So, you know, my son will take his half of the Toonies and get the like, overly fancy soccer ball that he's been coveting. And then no parents have to spend their precious Friday night desperately shopping for that stupid Lego set that like, this other kid is probably never going to play with. And so, you know, I think it's just a beautiful way to say, hey, we can cut back on waste and make things more joyful for everybody.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 46:50Speaker 04

  How we became creative was with our EV. We loved our EV so much when we bought it, that now we pimped it. And now it's the only bright, hot pink EV in Vancouver. People are taking photos. They stare. I'm like, what are you staring at? Oh, yeah, it's pink. That's why. You cannot ignore it. Everybody sees it. And the other reason is, it's safer. Pink makes the car safer, because everybody sees it. Basically, this is how you make yourself contagious. You drive around your EV, show off, and then show off in this hot pink car. That's just one creative insight my partner had. And I'm like, yeah, it's a great idea. Make yourself really, you know, contagious. Of course, you have to have fun in the process.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  And do something that's unusual, that's creative, so it will catch attention.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Well, Jay-Z, Liz, thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a pleasure.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Okay, that is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Before we go, we have a listener survey that is still going. We are looking for more responses. We need more feedback. It will help impact the future of the show. Tell us what topics you want us to focus on. Tell us what you love. Tell us what you wish we would do differently. You can find that link and go right to the survey in the episode description, wherever you're listening to this. Or you can go to bit.ly/BHSurvey6. Thank you, thank you, thank you. It would be a huge favor to me and the people who work on the show if you would give us your feedback there. Thank you as well to our guests on today's episode, Jay-Z and Elizabeth Dunn. Their book is called Leave the Lights On. And you can find out more about their book and both of them at their website, happyclimate.org. That's happyclimate.org. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book is called Humor Me.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  You can find out more about my book and all of my other projects on my website, which is chrisduffycomedy.com. This episode of How to Be a Better Human was brought to you by a joyful group of highly-trained rabbits. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balarezo, Ben Van Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanskasun Manivok, Antonio Lay, and Joseph Brine. Ryan Lash leaves the lights on while he is putting together the video that you may be watching right now. And Mateus Salas is our fact-checker, making sure that each and every one of our claims is focusing on the right stuff. On the PRX side, they are riding public transportation and they are smiling when they do it. It's Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who you'd like to discuss it with.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  We will be back next week with even more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.

• 49:30Speaker 00

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