The doctor who says to eat your ice cream (w/ Zeke Emanuel)

How long do you want to live? 75 years? 90? Over 100?! In this episode, oncologist and bioethicist Zeke Emanuel joins Chris to discuss why he’s suspicious about medical establishments and their push to treat illness and disease rather than teaching patients how to be healthy. They also talk about the beauty of spontaneous conversations with strangers. Finally Zeke shares the three foods you need to cut from your diet immediately… and why ice-cream is not on that list! Featured guest Follow Zeke Emanuel on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drezekielemanuel/, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@drezekielemanuel, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/zeke-emanuel-6ab78a1b0/, and at his website https://www.ezekielemanuel.com/Buy Eat Your Ice Cream: Six Simple Rules for a Long and Healthy Life https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/eat-your-ice-cream-ezekiel-j-emanuel-md/1147402755 Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcLWatch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDPods https://www.youtube.com/@TEDPodsFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksVote for our show in the Signal Awards for Best Advice & How To https://vote.signalaward.com/PublicVoting#/2026/shows/genre/advice-how-to podcast! For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Fill out our survey at bit.ly/BHSurvey6 https://bit.ly/BHSurvey6 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:53Speaker 00

  This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If I'm being totally honest with you, I have never felt fully comfortable hosting a podcast with the title "How to Be a Better Human." Part of that is because it makes it sound like I have all the answers, and I definitely do not. But another reason is because there are so many shows in the self-help or self-improvement or wellness space that feel a lot to me like scams. They're filled with people trying to get you to buy something, a program, a pill, a retreat, or something else. It's always something expensive. And there's always this idea that if you want your life to be good, if you want to be healthy and happy, you need to know some secret that is so complicated, you could have never figured

• 1:37Speaker 00

  it out all on your own. And I think, for the most part, that is total BS, like 99% of the time. And so that's why I'm so excited that on today's episode of our show, we have a guest who is a doctor, a very accomplished and very reputable, and who has a new book out about how to stay healthy. But his big message is, it's not that complicated. It's not a secret, and it doesn't require you to spend a ton of time and mental energy or money. Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is a breath of fresh air in a world filled with hucksters. To get us started, here he is, reading a passage from his new book, Eat Your Ice Cream: Six Simple Rules for a Long and Healthy Life.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  For anyone wading through the torrent of health and longevity advice online, it can be difficult to know who to trust. The so-called must-dos online range from the medically unproven, to the wildly impractical, to suggestions so absurd, they leave doctors like me baffled. Testicle tanning, teen blood transfusions, vaginal steaming, rucking hikes with a backpack full of weights. Information is coming at us from a fire hose, increasingly spewed by hucksters and self-proclaimed sages who have amassed millions of social media followers and dollars by promising supposed miracle treatments using medical-sounding language.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  It's no wonder so many people are confused and frustrated.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  We're going to talk to Dr. Emanuel about the common sense things that every human should do to take care of themselves, and about why it is so easy and tempting to get sucked into these wellness rabbit holes online. All that and more after this quick break.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court, and that fight needs your support today. Donate at NRDc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.

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• 5:10Speaker 00

  And we are back. On today's episode, we are talking about how to stay healthy without getting scammed with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Hello. I'm Ezekiel Emanuel. I'm an oncologist, a bioethicist, health policy expert, author of 16 books, including Eat Your Ice Cream, and I'm a professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  One of the things that I really was struck by in Eat Your Ice Cream, this book, was how you talk about the cost of all this conflicting medical and wellness advice that we get online. But you talk about it not just in terms of financial cost, of people wanting you to buy their supplements, or their expensive, very fancy yogurt brand, something like that. But instead, you also talk about the cost in terms of our mental energy and our time. For people who haven't read the book, can you explain a little bit about how this is a real cost to all this advice being flooded towards us at all times?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, one of the things is, if you try to keep up with all the wellness advice, and all the stuff different influencers are trying to push to you, it would take all day long, literally. More importantly, I find as I get older and older, my mental focus, once you begin to add things, it becomes hard to actually focus on things that are meaningful. And we get this distraction phenomenon that you hear this, you hear that, you hear the other, and you haven't been able to think something through in detail. The last, and I think, most important one is something the everyday economists call "opportunity cost." If you're going to spend so much time doing exercise,

• 6:46Speaker 01

  it's going to take away from something else in your life. Time is our most precious resource, and we keep doing things that take away from it. So I'll just give you one concrete example. One of the great influencers, Peter Attia, recommends 10 hours a week of exercise. Now, that's a lot of hours when you're awake of exercise, and it means you're not doing other things. You're not spending time with people, you're not reading books, you're not talking to your colleagues and having great intellectually stimulating conversations. So I think we need to put all this wellness stuff in perspective. You don't want to be obsessed by it, and that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. The idea that we should be obsessed

• 7:30Speaker 01

  by wellness is ludicrous. Life is more important than wellness.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  I love that you are so willing to specifically go after people who you think are misleading people. I think that's really important. We need to call out those specific things. And you talk about, in the book, about how people like Peter Attia, they seem to give this message that the goal is to live as long as possible, that that is the only goal, to have maximum life rather than maximum quality of life. And you say that, as a doctor, that that really is not the goal, to just live as long as possible at any cost.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of these wellness influencers have not actually spent any time with 90-year-olds or centenarians. And the fact of the matter is that when you meet them, some of them are doing fantastic. I was just interviewed about a guy in Pittsburgh, who at over 100 is still working full-time, driving, running. I was talking to some other people, and they were talking about, is it called the Leadville 100, the mountain bike race for 100 miles, and that some of the top finishers were over 80 years old. All great. But the fact is, a lot of your friends will be dying. You definitely slow down. There's definitely problems that develop. And it's the rare exception that someone stays

• 8:48Speaker 01

  cognitively and physically intact, that can still travel well in their 90s and still work in their 90s. That is rare, rare, rare. That's not the norm. And I think we have to be realistic about the fact that things are going to slow down, things are going to take longer to heal, and maybe living long isn't what you should be doing. Living a full, meaningful life is what you should be aiming at.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  One of my favorite jokes of all time is, a writer for The Onion, Alex Blackman, made this joke that has now become a meme. It's about how tech founders often claim to be fans of science fiction, but then they take the exact wrong lessons from the science fiction books that they read. So his joke is, "Sci-fi author, in my book, I invented the torment nexus as a cautionary tale. Tech company, at long last, we have created the torment nexus from classic sci-fi novel, Don't Create the Torment Nexus." And honestly, I just think that's very funny as a joke, but I, I think there's a similar thing with longevity where like, if you read any of the classic literature about people who have found the, the fountain of immortality and live forever, the point of all of those books is always that it's actually a curse.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  The thing that gives our life meaning is that it is limited, that to live to 300 or a thousand would not be this blessing that people claim it would be, but instead would suck the meaning out of the time that we have.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I totally agree with that. And I think actually, if you ask most people and say, all right, what's more important to you, quality of life or quantity of life? They almost always say quality of life. And then when you ask, you know, what are the essential elements of quality of life? One of the most important is cognitive function and being not demented and not cognitively impaired. And if you look at the data, you know, one of my main motivating factors is, you know, I don't want to be cognitively impaired. And it turns out that, you know, the chance of being cognitively impaired or demented is very, very low until you hit 75 and then it really shoots up. And it's true, you, any

• 10:53Speaker 01

  individual might defy the odds, but you've got to look at, you know, most of us are average. That's what average means. And the fact of the matter is that at 80, about 40% of people are either, either cognitively impaired or frankly demented. And I know personally, I don't want to be in that group. That's at 80, not 85 or 90. It also doesn't discuss how physically active people in those age groups are. A lot of the influencers turn out to be in their 40s and 50s and have no idea what the rest of the trajectory is going to look like. And they're very confident they're going to defy everyone else. Maybe they will. Let me just say the following historical fact. In 1909, the St. Louis

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Post Dispatch published an article that says, researcher says scientists will soon have us living to 150 or 200 years. That could have been written in 2009 and 2019. The fact of the matter is, this is, as you point out in myths, a dream we've had for a very long time, but the dream is like, eh, beware of what you wish for.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  But you also talk in the book, and I think this is an important counterpoint here, that you've done a lot of thinking about why it is that the medical establishment is, is very, very focused on treating illness and disease and not very focused on prevention and wellness and optimizing for your, your best health. Can you talk as a doctor about where and why you think there, there's space to be talking more about how to stay healthy rather than just not be sick?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, our healthcare system pays doctors to treat sick patients. It does not pay doctors to treat healthy patients. And as a matter of fact, there's a financial disincentive for treating healthy patients and trying to keep them healthier. We have to fix that crazy upside down incentive structure. That's true of almost every healthcare system in the world. We just happen to do it badly compared to others. We spend a lot more money and get not very much for it. And I think that's actually one of the reasons. You go to the doctor, the doctor doesn't spend a lot of time on wellness or the one or two things you ought to be doing to keep yourself healthy. And so people feel frustrated

• 13:14Speaker 01

  by that. They want to know what they should be doing. And so hence the influencers, hence the going to the internet and consuming lots of these reports. And I think that's the backwards element. You know, we would have to incentivize doctors to actually keep people healthy and not pay them to treat every illness, but to pay them for an outcome, which is how long are people living without serious medical conditions? Or if they have a chronic illness like hypertension or diabetes, that we make sure that they live as healthy as possible with those conditions. So I think that's part of the challenge for the healthcare

• 13:57Speaker 01

  system. I think for the individual, it's, and the reason I wrote the book is, what should I do? So it doesn't consume my whole life. And it's a reasonable activity that I can actually integrate into a otherwise busy and fulfilling life.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Well, one just caveat here is that probably about half of our audience is not based in the United States. So

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  There's a large percentage of people who are, are not living in the, under the American healthcare system. But just because you and I are both in the United States and probably no other doctor or very few other doctors have played such a, a key role in trying to shape and, and improve American healthcare policy than you have. We are in a moment in the United States where there is such a powerful, profound distrust of science and medicine. Those forces are, are ascendant. They're in control of, of many of the, the scientific and medical establishments right now.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  And part of it, I think, comes from a, a lack of an ongoing personal relationship with a primary care provider because people are delaying healthcare. They're avoiding healthcare because they, because it costs a lot of money. A recent survey showed that 92% of insured respondents had delayed or avoided medical care because of concern about cost. So we have just a thing where the norm is for people to not want to go to the doctor, even when they are sick because they're, they have fears about cost. And you did a lot of work to try and make that not be the case. But I wonder, are, are there other forces at play too, that you think have led to, to people being so distrustful of the research and the science?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know about distrustful, but I do think there's a lot of forces at play that are bigger than the American healthcare system at play, focusing on wellness and what I can do and being suspicious of the institutions. So if you look back 150 years or so, 1870, 1880, we had a similar upspring and upsurge in wellness interest. Actually, that's the original one. We had, you know, focus on breakfast, which was supposed to be healthy for you. We had a focus on spas, Baden, Baden, Saratoga Springs in the United States, Hot Springs in the United States. We had a focus on a lot of magazines, vegetarian

• 16:13Speaker 01

  magazines. We also had a big focus on exercise, books that were coming out on hygiene is a book that came out, which was really an exercise book, not that dissimilar from, you know, the New York Times has whatever it is, seven minutes of calisthetics in the morning or whatever. And there was a proposal then about 15 minutes of exercise. So the only thing we've lost in a century and a half is eight minutes. And so you ask yourself, well, what were, how are these moments similar? Or are they, or are they just two different moments in time? So the first thing is, big industrial revolution, factories, standardized production. We have a big industrial revolution in terms of the information, AI revolution.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  You have a lot of little wars happening. You have the Franco-Prussian war. You have the Russian-Japanese war. You have the Boer War, the Spanish-American War. You've got Ukraine. We've got Gaza. We've got Iran. And that doesn't mention lots of other conflicts that are happening out there like Sudan that we're not even paying attention to. You also have a situation of great income inequality. The Rockefellers, the Cardigys, the Vanderbilts, and today, of course, the Bezos, the Musks, the Zuckerbergs, et cetera. And the world seems out of control. This leads to a political polarization. I think this also leads to a sort of inward focus. All right. The world's out of control. I can't control. Let me do what I can to control my life and wellness becomes the focus. It was the focus, as I

• 17:41Speaker 01

  say, in the 1880s, all the way through to the start of World War I. It's the focus today. And it turns out that coinciding with that wellness are things like suspicion of the food supply chain. So there was the jungle written right at the turn of the 20th century, you know, about adulterated foods and how we need to purify our food. We have certainly had that with the Maha movement and with sort of just anybody who's worried about ultra-processed foods. Simultaneously, there's also lots of suspicion about the one key vaccine at that time, which was smallpox. And a lot of states had smallpox mandates. There was a legal case that went all the way to the Supreme Court about mandating people

• 18:22Speaker 01

  get smallpox because people were refusing. Surprise, same thing today. So I think these all go together. It is a lot about the uncertainty, the lack of my ability to control and have input to the larger social forces that are going on. They seem to, you know, control me rather than me control them. And I think people end up turning into wellness and part of that is, keep all that stuff away from me. So that, that's my reading of the history. I think not having a primary care doctor plays into it absolutely. There's not a trusted person I can just call up and ask questions of, so you turn to AI, you turn to, you know, YouTube or Instagram or whatever, and, and that has an answer. It may not be the right answer, but it has an answer.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  It makes me also think, so now if we know that it's a cyclical thing from history, then what turns the tide back towards the, the good side?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  So two things did it in the early part of the 20th century, World War I, and what we do actually matters. And progressivism changed the political dynamic, the economic dynamic, controlling the big trusts and the big companies, equalizing income. So there was a lot of different efforts. And also the other thing that happened at that point is a dramatic improvement in American healthcare.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  So the Flexner Report, we, we began to really train doctors. Hospitals became much safer. I think today what you're going to end up with, here, here's a radical prediction I don't think I've made in any other show is, you're going to end up with a lot more AI doing basic medical care and it'll be a lot easier for people to access autonomous AI. It'll manage a lot of the routine things like hypertension better than doctors. And then you will have a primary care doctor who you can access much more easily because he or she is going to have time to really focus on the important things for patients.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  We're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back in just a moment.

• 20:33Speaker 00

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• 23:45Speaker 00

  And we are back. We're talking today about how to live a long and healthy life with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. And here's Dr. Emanuel reading another passage from his book, Eat Your Ice Cream, about how while a lot of the health advice online is overly complicated, it also misses a lot of the really important, basic details.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Despite fixating on complexities, the advice out there also remains overly simplistic, or at least incomplete. Most well-known writers on wellness today emphasize one of three physical components of wellness and longevity: eating, exercise, and sleep. These are all vital to living a healthy life. But they are only half the story. The social and psychological components to wellness are even more important. Risk management, friendship and social interactions, and mental engagement have a measurably greater impact on your wellness than diet, exercise, and sleep. There is no reason to make wellness an obsession to which we devote

• 24:43Speaker 01

  oodles of hours every day. You don't want or need a wellness data dump. Most people just need the bottom line, straightforward, evidence-based do's and don'ts for the health information that really matters. Because wellness is simple, this book is simple. It focuses on the six fundamental wellness behaviors that yield the maximum benefits with the least work. One, don't be a schmuck. Avoid self-destructive risks. Two, talk to people. Cultivate family, friends, and other social relations. Three, expand your mind. Stay mentally

• 25:22Speaker 01

  sharp. Four, eat your ice cream. Consume healthy food and drink. Move it. Exercise well and regularly. Sleep like a baby. Get the rest you need. This list is short, manageable, and effective.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  There's so much in there. And I think the idea that we need to focus on more than just diet, exercise, and sleep is a big one for a lot of people. That people don't think about these other, this other half as being as important. And yet you point out statistically, it's as important, if not more important, to be connected, to be mentally aware, and to not take stupid risks.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  It's not just people don't actually look at social interaction or mental engagement as important to wellness. Doctors don't. When you survey doctors, like what's important to wellness, turns out, social interactions is way down their list. They don't know the data about the importance of social interactions. Despite over 3 million people being engaged in various studies in multiple countries, China, the United States, Sweden, Australia, showing the same thing over and over again.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  You talk in the book about how you make a real effort in your life to engage other people in conversation. But you also, when someone tries to engage you, you really respond. I thought there was a really interesting story about how you were on the Amtrak riding the train, and the conductor asked you about the book that you had.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  And not only did you talk to him and say, oh, yes, this is book about Martin Luther King. Yeah, I'm just started. It's really interesting. But then the next time you were on the train, you had a feeling he might be the same conductor. And so you brought a copy of the book and gave it to him. And now you have this relationship with this person.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And unfortunately, he retired.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Which is actually against some of your recommendations in the book. You say, don't retire unless you really have to.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's part of social interaction, is that you can talk to someone and surprise, something interesting that you didn't expect occurs. And actually, I was just in France and Spain, and we were in a coffee shop in Montpellier, France. And some guy says to me, as I'm waiting for the coffee, he says, where are you from? I said, from Washington, DC, in the United States. And then proceeds this unbelievable 45-minute conversation with him, the barista, me and my wife, about, the barista turns out to be an award-winning barista, international awards. He actually, when he goes to contests, he takes droplets

• 27:52Speaker 01

  of various minerals that he matches, because he doesn't know the water and the waters, you know, most of coffee, so.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Make sure it's right. Anyway, and then, you know, we're about to leave, and we get a long list from the guy of, oh, here are the places you ought to go. You know, here's the things you want to see in Montpellier. Here are restaurants you ought to eat in. You know, here's other cafes. Here's a bar or two you ought to go to. And it was, you know, it was a wonderful conversation that I still, it's so vivid.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  But so many people have this fear that if they, they do that, if they reach out, if they say something that is, you know, that they're going to bother someone, or that they'll get this big negative reaction. So.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yes. What is it that holds us back? And it's exactly as you say, Chris. It's one, fear, you know, and it's irrational, imaginary, totally groundless fear that the other people won't respond. In fact, other people like to talk, want to talk, and they're just as fearful. And so you've got this very negative reinforcing cycle that your fear doesn't let you test out whether your theory is right or not. The second is, you know, oh, well, they might not be interested, and it might be a negative, a bad experience. First of all, the vast majority are positive experiences. They make you happy because you're socially engaged, and we're social beings. And someone will tell you really quickly if they don't

• 29:11Speaker 01

  want to talk to you, if they've had a bad day, or whatever it is, they'll be monosyllabic, no, yes, no. And then you can pick it up and you can say, all right, they're having a bad day. I don't know what it's about. They obviously don't want to engage. And, you know, move on. And I've had this, you know, there are some days where everything goes wrong. I get into the Uber. The Uber driver happens to be a perfectly nice person, trying to engage me in conversation. And I'm like monosyllabic. And I say to them, listen, it's got nothing to do with you. It's got to do with me. I've just had this terrible day. And, you know, often, they will engage me on, oh, so what was so bad? How did, and, you know, that makes me feel better.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Well, you talk in the book about how one of the ways you learned how to engage people and have these social interactions is lessons that you learned from your father. He has these four adages that he would, he would always talk to you about how to have a casual conversation.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  So my dad was an inveterate extrovert who would always initiate conversations. First of all, he's a pediatrician. He was talking to people every minute of every day. And he would always initiate conversations. We would go into little town. And by the way, he had a very thick accent. My dad was born in Jerusalem, educated in Switzerland. You know, English wasn't his native language. And he had a very, he had a thick accent all the way through his life. But we would go to little towns out west in South Dakota and Montana. And, you know, we would sit down and he'd start talking to the table next to us, or the waitress, and it was always a waitress. And he'd ask, you know, like, what's good to do in the town? You know, how did you get here? How did your grandparents or whoever turn out

• 30:48Speaker 01

  here? You know, he would just be curious about them. And. People invariably responded. Now, as his kid, his 10-year-old son, you know, it's like, I want to crawl under the table. This is like so embarrassing. You know, who is this guy? I'm not related to him. So initiate, just go up. And, and you know, one of my brothers, people come onto an elevator, says, hello, I'm Ari. Who are you? Why are you here? You know, simple, simple.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Welcome to the elevator. Why are you here?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Second, let curiosity drive the conversation. Ask people about themselves. You know, people love talking about themselves. They have interesting stories. Third, ask questions, follow-up questions, and affirm the value of the conversation. Don't be distracted. If someone's talking to you, listen and engage them. And ask a follow-up question tells you that you're actually listening to the conversation. I notice on the phone, you know, if you're talking to someone and there's a long pause between what you finish and they're responding, or what they ask is not quite on what you said, you know, they're clearly doing something else. They're scrolling, doom scrolling while they're talking to you on the phone.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Forget it. That's not a conversation. Fourth, okay, don't be fragile. If people don't want to talk, it's got nothing to do with you. Your ego can take it. First of all, you're very unlikely to see them again. And if you are lucky enough to see them again, you know, they will probably apologize, like me, getting into the Uber and saying, listen, this just isn't a good day. I'm not going to do, you know, chit chat.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  I similarly grew up with a very extroverted father, and my dad is from the Midwest. He grew up outside Detroit, but then he, my entire life, lived in New York City, where the culture is to just not talk to strangers. And I grew up being, feeling so mortified that every time we were on a crowded bus, my dad would be like, hey, how's that book? Is that a good book? And the person would be like, I'm not interested. He'd be like, no, I'm just curious about the book, you know? And then he'd end up talking to people. And even now, when I talk to my, my parents, I say like, oh, what are you doing today? And they're like, we met someone in line at the store and they're coming over for dinner. And it's like, they have these incredible interactions and relationships that would never happen. And even though, like you, I found it very mortifying as a 10-year-old. Now, as a parent, I am trying so hard to teach my, my kids that same thing, that if

• 33:09Speaker 00

  you talk to people and you make that initial outreach, you're much more likely to be surprised positively than negatively. Because I think it's a very important life lesson.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  If I had to impart an important lesson here is be curious about other people, what they do, why they do it. You know, ask them questions. People love to talk.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Let's, let's talk about one of the other big factors of health here, which is what you eat.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  So obviously, the book is called Eat Your Ice Cream. You are not opposed to people occasionally eating something which is not, you know, the, the most stereotypically healthy kale nut smoothie. It's not like that only has to be that. And yet, you said that there are basically three really important things that we could cut out from our diet, and then a number of things that we could add in that would change our health positively. And these are not some sort of like complicated secret life hack things. These are just straightforward things that you can do that won't sap your energy and motivation.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Willpower.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Your willpower. But instead, we'll, we'll make it. So what, what should we be doing?

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Wellness is not something you do one day a week or one month a year. You're going to do it for 40 years. So it can't be about self-denial, because you're not going to do self-denial for 40 years. So you have to get the balance between, you know, what you do regularly and the occasional whatever. So here are the rules, and they're pretty simple. The first is sodas. Don't drink soda, including diet sodas. They're not good for you. They're 140 calories, a 12-ounce can, 140 calories, zero nutritional value. It's mostly 10 teaspoons of sugar. Very bad for you. And diet ones are no better, partially

• 34:50Speaker 01

  because they seem to change the microbiome in an adverse way. Second, we have to cut back on our ultra-processed foods. They are very bad for us. They are part of the reason we have the obesity epidemic in the world. They're also bad for our cognitive function. There are great studies out of Brazil and other places showing that more ultra-processed food is associated with earlier cognitive decline. Right now, in the United States, we lead the world, 68% of the calories of most adults and more than 70% of most kids are ultra-processed foods. The Italians are down around 20%. That's the kind of direction

• 35:32Speaker 01

  you have to go. The easiest thing to drop, the easiest thing to drop are those packaged snacks, cookies, muffins, cake, Twinkies, whatever it is, pretzels, stop those things. We've really ramped up our consumption of those things to about 500 calories a day. Big mistake. If you want a snack, lots of healthy things for a snack, nuts, carrots and hummus, apple and cheese, you know, get, get a healthy thing. So those are the stop. The to-dos, and there are really two fundamental to-dos, and we can talk about lots of other things, is fermented foods, sauerkraut, kimchi, yogurt, cottage cheese, alpine cheeses.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Those all have probiotics that go into our gut and are very good for us. Now, bacteria in our gut, and we have 100 trillion bacteria in our gut, they live on fiber. And so you need to eat fiber. Turns out, in the United States, 93% of people do not get enough fiber. Where do you get fiber? Fruits and vegetables, nuts. Those are the things that give you fiber, and you have to eat them. So I recommend having some fruit. Berries are good with your yogurt, hemp seeds for protein in the morning, and a salad every evening. I was

• 37:00Speaker 01

  raised by a mother who knew about the importance of vegetables. And from as early as I can remember, we have always had a salad at dinnertime. And it's excellent for giving you vegetables, especially if it's got lots of different colors in there between the tomatoes and the peppers and the carrots. So those are the base rules. There are lots of other rules. Cutting back on red meat, not eating processed meats like bacon or ham or salami. Those things in general are not good for you. Now, an occasional hot dog, especially if you're from Chicago like me, very, very good.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Well, it's a joke, but it's also not a joke, right? Like you,

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  You do have a hot dog every once in a while. You just don't think that a hot dog is a thing that you should be eating every night at, at 6:00 PM.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  It should not be your lunch every week, every day. Yeah, I agree.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Since one of the, the places where it seems like you have a lot of excitement or optimism for, for health is around better understanding of our, our microbiome and probiotic and, you know, prebiotic, all, all the stuff that is going on with the, the bacteria in our body that are not our physical body, but are integral to its, its functions. There are now snacks that claim to be prebiotic fiber snacks, and there are sodas that are probiotic sodas. Are those on your okay list? Or are those still just the same as, you shouldn't count those in?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Stupid waste of money. You don't need to spend money on that. As I said, get your yogurt every day or kimchi, whatever your fermented food is, make it, or, you know, buy your pickles or buy your fermented food, and then make sure you eat enough fiber. You do not have to buy some special mixture that is going to be four, five, six times more expensive and somebody's going to make a fortune on you for something that you could just eat off the shelf.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  So this episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vale Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vale Smart Toilet is sleek with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that

• 39:35Speaker 00

  exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high-performance function. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets. Find out more at kohler.com.

• 40:08Speaker 02

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• 41:23Speaker 03

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• 41:59Speaker 00

  We have sleep, we have exercise, we have diet, we have social connection, we have not making stupid choices that are dangerous, and then we have staying mentally sharp. I am the parent right now of a one-year-old and a two-and-a-half-year-old, and I am in a moment where each and every one of those six feels extremely difficult to accomplish. Like, even though I'm bought in, I'm not skeptical at all, but I'm like, oh, a good night of sleep. Yeah, I would love that. Ooh, eating healthy and having time to like bake my own bread and snacks, that sounds fantastic. Oh, you know, not being stressed, that also sounds great. Exercising, sounds fantastic. But what advice do you have for people where because

• 42:41Speaker 00

  of their current life moment like me, or maybe because they are working really tough jobs and they don't have a lot of free time, how do you fit these in when maybe life is not conducive to these?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Chris, I once was like you.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  That gives me a lot of hope.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I had, I had three daughters. I was working as a oncology fellow and then faculty member. I know what time constraints are. I actually was working three jobs because on the weekends I would have to moonlight to pay for their daycare. So I am very, very well aware of the time stress. I will tell you now what I used to do. First, I would get up a little bit before they did and I would go out running for a couple of miles, which, you know, at about seven minutes a mile, that was about 15 or 20 minutes, and I'd be back home. I'd then make a scratch breakfast for them. Literally do the pancake mix from scratch in one minute. You could do eggs, you can, you know, cut the strawberries in another minute. In about

• 43:44Speaker 01

  five or seven minutes, you can actually get it all done. And before I went to bed, I always had the table set. That was good for them because it gave them a good nutritious breakfast and we all, and we all sat for breakfast, which is incredibly important for kids. And we would go over the day, what are you expecting in the day? Who's going to pick you up? When mom and dad are going to come home? Is there anything special you would like in the day that we might be able to do? And then we would have a dinner all together. And I was notorious when I was working at the cancer center in Boston. Three o'clock, Zeke is going to pick his kids up. And then I'd come back at night afterwards to do the work, finish the work if I didn't get everything done. But, you know, people

• 44:28Speaker 01

  knew that I was like, super focused because I wanted to go home and be with my kids. You know, when my kids are a little older than two and a half and one, we would actually have study hall at home. They'd come home, they'd do their homework, and I'd be sitting there doing my homework. And it's a good role modeling for them. And we would have snack together, which was mostly fruit and nuts. One of the things I like to do, or like to suggest people do, is do what someone has dubbed for me wellness stacking. What are the kinds of things you can do that can bring all sorts of the wellness behaviors together? And I always say throwing a dinner party is the best thing because you, you cook good food and you know what's in the food. And by the way, once your kids get

• 45:10Speaker 01

  older and they can cut, or they can toss the salad, or they can toss the granola, you know, getting them to do things in the kitchen, they love it. And then they can taste it. They also like responsibility. Set the table. Okay, you know, not dangerous. You know, you might lose a dish every once in a while, but kids love doing responsibility. So a dinner party has healthy food, other friends and family, nice, interesting conversation. And then afterwards, you can go out for a walk and get some of that exercise involved. And so you've got three or four of the wellness activities all bundled into one activity. You can do that once a week.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  I, I love that. I think that's a great, that's a great suggestion. And, and I think it does hit at the heart of something that I often use as an excuse, which is there's not time. But then when you say, do you really not have 22 minutes? I go, well, I guess there is 22 minutes. I probably waste 22 minutes every morning, no matter what.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  The important thing, and again, I, I hope this is a thing that comes through the book, is the important thing is to make it a habit.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Okay, we've talked about a lot of them, but we haven't really talked about the, your, one of your roles, which is don't be a schmuck. So how do you not take unnecessary risks? And what exactly are the unnecessary risks?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  So first of all, all of us take risks in life. You can't live a full life without taking risks. And I think on the spectrum of human beings, it turns out I'm probably at the pretty far risky side of it. Certainly that's what my wife and daughters will tell you. He's always doing something crazy. The most risky thing we do on a regular basis, we being everyone in the world, is turn the ignition on our car. Driving is not risk-free. It serves, in my view, as a baseline for what do you do? Now, I, I hate driving and drive very, very little. We've now had a car for more than 18 months. We've drove, driven

• 47:05Speaker 01

  4,000 miles. That's it. I hate it. You compare risk to that. I drive a Vespa-style scooter with a helmet in the city, and you're never going more than 20, 25 miles an hour. I think that's a reasonable risk. I ride a bicycle. Bicycle's actually not a risky activity. I've had almost an accident every other year now. But there are some things that are really, really increase your risk dramatically. Not getting vaccines. You know, contra RFK Junior, you should be getting your vaccines. I like to emphasize to people in middle age, there are four vaccines that decrease your risk of dementia and cognitive impairment. The shingles vaccine, which you definitely should get, the pneumococcal vaccine to prevent pneumonia,

• 47:50Speaker 01

  DPT, diphtheria, pertussis, and tetanus vaccine, and then your annual flu vaccine, all shown to decrease your risk of dementia. Go out and get them. Don't delay. Now, you know, when I was writing the book, I said, okay, so what are the really schmucky things you should advise people not to do? And, and I always thought that the stupidest thing you could do was what's called base jumping. You know, climb up on a mountain in this squirrel suit with, you know, just wings and no propulsion and jump off and give yourself over to the wind. That, that strikes me as the stupidest thing you could do. And the, the mortality risk is one in 2,700. One person dies for every 2,700 jumps. And it also turns out

• 48:30Speaker 01

  that the injury rate is super high, one in 250 jumps. And then I looked up the data and it turns out there's something even stupider, which is climbing Mount Everest. People pay a hundred, $150,000 to climb Mount Everest if they're amateurs. And it turns out that the risk of dying, usually coming down, is one in 100 for all comers, including the experts. That's just dumb. Why would you pay $100,000 for a 1 in 25 chance of dying? And by the way, your body ain't never coming down from Everest. No one's spending any oxygen to bring a dead body down. So really stupid. Don't do those things.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  I am already on that path and I will just stay on the path of not doing those things.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  But there are lots of people, you see those lines on Everest. It's like, are you guys dumb? That line is dangerous for you.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  I want to ask you a little bit of like a meta question, which is, there's a culture and there's kind of this like pressure in a system to make things more complicated, to make it seem like a regular person couldn't understand it. Only this expert can sell them the truth. And so I wonder how you think about like combating the pressures in society and in popular culture to make things more complex for the sake of complexity, because then it seems more real. And I'm putting real in big quotations there.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think you're 100% right. Part of what I tried to do is to say, look, first of all, it's simple. And the second thing I make, and I emphasize here, is it's age-old. It's not like I discovered these or there's some magic here, right? Aristotle knew, uh, human beings were social animals and we had to be social. That was necessary for happiness and longevity. Hippocrates knew that diet and exercise were important for longevity. I mean, these are not new. And if there's some new discovery, then there are new things that come up. Look, the microbiome, 15 years ago, no one was talking microbiome. Understanding how eating fruits and vegetables turn out to be really important for health,

• 50:31Speaker 01

  that we're just discovering, which ones we'll learn. But if it's really important, you will find out about it. And you don't have to find out the moment it's discovered, the next day. It's going to change your life because again, you're going to be doing this for 40 years. Day in and day out, you're doing it.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  If there were three health myths or health practices that you think are misinformed that you could dispel, you had a magic wand, you could just erase them, what would the, the three most damaging ones be?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  I think this whole obsession about protein is one of them that I would get rid of. Certainly in America, and I think most developed countries that are probably listening to this, we get enough protein. Protein is not our problem. Now, some select parts of the population, if you're vegan, for example, you probably do need to be aware of your protein intake. And I think, you know, make sure you're getting enough of it. The other one is, you know, social interaction doesn't matter for wellness. You know, if you ask me what in particular in Peter Attia's outlive book forced me to write this book, and I put force in quotes, but really compelled me to be so pissed off, I wanted to write

• 51:39Speaker 01

  this book. It was a fact that he did not acknowledge the importance of social interaction. And he says in the last two pages, the sort of afterword to the book, well, you know, you can be in great shape, but if your wife doesn't like you, or, you know, your kids resent you, what is it worth? That's right. And it turns out that's way more important to your longevity, your happiness, and your health than being able to bench press 250 pounds. So that's a really important, put that at the top of your list. Social interaction. And in our society, that's really important because we're screwing it up big time. Oh, I guess the other myth I would say is more exercise is not better. There is a plateau where more exercise is not going to increase or decrease your mortality rate or things

• 52:23Speaker 01

  like that. It'll actually increase your risk of injury. You know, 10 hours a week is increasing your risk of injury, not increasing your longevity, and also probably taking away from other really important aspects of life.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Well, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, thank you so much for the work that you've done. Thank you for this book. Thank you for your time. It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. His new book is called Eat Your Ice Cream: Six Simple Rules for Living a Long and Healthy Life. You should check that book out. It is really fantastic and very straightforward and no nonsense, just like Dr. Ezekiel himself. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book is called Humor Me. You can find out more about my book and all my other projects and my live show dates at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team living inside of a cold plunge. On the TED side, our show is put together by a team of peptide stacked superhumans who include Daniela Balorizo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansuka Sungman-Nivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBryan.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Ryan Lash put together this video wall protein maxing, and Mateus Salas checked all of our facts, thanks to his hyperoptimal, superhuman mental focus. On the PRX side, our show is polished and perfected by a team of extreme athletes currently running an ultra marathon inside of a hyperbaric chamber. That is Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please stay healthy. Please do not let anyone sell you unregulated supplements. Please do share this episode with someone you like talking to. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vale Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vale Smart Toilet is sleek, with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  It's all about elevating those ordinary, daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high-performance function. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets. Find out more at kohler.com.

• 55:31Speaker 04

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• 56:52Speaker 06

  Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by Service Now. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where Service Now's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.