Why stealing other people’s ideas can be a good thing (w/ Austin Kleon)

Austin Kleon thinks stealing inspiration is a good thing — because it requires you to pay attention to the world. Austin is a self-proclaimed “creative kleptomaniac” and the author of five books, including Steal Like An Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative. In his conversation with Chris, they discuss “scenius,” or the creative genius of a group, how children are invaluable creative teachers, and why he thrives in the tension between discipline and spontaneity. Follow Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/) Guest: Austin Kleon (Instagram: @austinkleon https://www.instagram.com/austinkleon | Website: https://austinkleon.com/) Links Austin Kleon’s Substack https://austinkleon.substack.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadoQ-HgtTuVVdUGNQLMaZC_-gaDmIXEuSKIZ9uoFyMTFPH5TI94XqurdscPAQ_aem_GkjLTtPD6TnC71D7GwnUZw Steal Like an Artist (Book https://austinkleon.com/steal/) Subscribe to TED Instagram:@ted https://www.instagram.com/ted/?hl=en YouTube:@TED https://www.youtube.com/@TED TikTok:@tedtoks https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoks?lang=en LinkedIn:@ted-conferences https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences Website:ted.com https://ted.com Podcasts:https://www.ted.com/podcaststed.com/podcasts http://ted.com/podcasts For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Duffy?

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• 0:28Chris Duffy?

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• 1:17Chris Duffy?

  You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When I first started comedy and I was going to open mics, it was often immediately clear who a new aspiring stand-up's favorite famous comedian was. You'd see this person get on stage and then you'd go, okay, this person is, without knowing it, doing an impression of Mitch Hedberg, or Anthony Jeselnik, or Sarah Silverman. You know, like, I'd get up there and people would be like, okay, here is a guy telling jokes like a much less funny John Mulaney. And that was true. I did want to be like him, right? There's always this weird tension in being a creative person, where on the one hand, you want to do something that is original and unique. And on the other hand, you also want to be like the people whose work you admire.

• 2:00Chris Duffy?

  I struggled with that for a really long time. But now, I embrace the idea of being inspired by and emulating people whose work I admire. I keep a list. On my desk of artists that I want to be like. It's a rotating cast of characters, but it's people like Spalding Gray and Ira Glass and Sarah Kay and Chris Gethard and Bell Hooks. I welcome them all into the simmering soup pot that is my brain. My recipe list of artists was itself inspired by today's guest, Austin Kleon. When I first read Austin's book, Steal Like an Artist, everything that I'd been worried about with creativity, it suddenly clicked. Here's a clip from Austin's TED Talk where he's explaining his philosophy.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  I am a creative kleptomaniac. But unlike your regular kleptomaniac, I'm interested in stealing the things that really mean something to me, the things that I can actually use in my work. Mr. Steve Jobs actually has a better way of explaining it than I think I could.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  It comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done. And then try to bring those things in to what you're doing. I mean, Picasso had a saying, he said, "Good artists copy, great artists steal." And we have, you know, always been shameless about stealing great ideas.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Picasso, he said it, artist theft. One time, a writer asked the musician David Bowie if he thought he was original. He said, "No, no, no, I'm more like a tasteful thief."

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And he said, "The only art I'll actually study is the stuff that I can steal from." When you look at the world this way, there is no longer good art and bad art. There's just art worth stealing and art that isn't. And everything in the world is up for grabs. If you don't find something worth stealing today, you might find it worth stealing tomorrow or the month after that or years later.

• 3:56Chris Duffy?

  Okay, consider this your invitation to steal as many ideas as you can from this podcast. Here's Austin.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Austin Kleon. I call myself a writer who draws. I make art with words and books with pictures.

• 4:10Chris Duffy?

  Okay, so let's start with the art that you make sense. Podcasting isn't traditionally a visual medium. So can you describe for us what your art or your artistic style is?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I first became known for these things called newspaper blackout poems. And if you can imagine the CIA doing haiku, that's what it looks like. So what I do is I take an article of the New York Times and I leave just a few words behind and then I blackout everything else. And they kind of connect into these little funny phrases or sayings. And that's what I got known for first. And when you watch my old TED Talk, that's sort of the work that led to that TED Talk.

• 4:51Chris Duffy?

  I love the like heavily redacted newspaper articles instead of as like a way of protecting national security as a way of finding beauty.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yes, it's co-opted.

• 5:00Chris Duffy?

  You talk about this a lot in the in the TED Talk and in your book, Steal Like an Artist. The idea to do that comes from a tradition of people who've done somewhat similar things, even though you didn't necessarily know that there was such a tradition when you started.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  So when you're a young artist and you sort of discover that the thing that you're doing is very similar to some people who have come before you, I think the only truly honorable thing to do is to locate yourself in a kind of lineage and to try to swim upstream and to say, okay, well, these people that I might be borrowing from, either unintentionally or intentionally, where did they come from? Where did their work come from? Who were they inspired by? And I think when you kind of swim upstream this way, you can kind of build a creative family tree. And what it does is it does a couple of things. One, it kind of gives you this whole kind of root system.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  That you have that you can draw on and it kind of creates this like undercurrent of strong DNA, I guess, for your work. But the other thing it does is it gives you ideas for your own work because you can start saying, okay, that person did this. What did they not do? Like, what did they not cover? Like, what did these heroes of mine that came before? What did they not get to attempt? And also, what would happen if I got these heroes together in a room and had them collaborate? Maybe that's what my work can be. So it's kind of a general method of studying is the more you go back, the more you know how to go forwards.

• 6:36Chris Duffy?

  There's so much that I love about that. It's not actually about being solo. It's about being a part of a community and having a, like you said, a lineage, but also a peer group.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm glad. And, you know, that was not original to me. That was something I stole. Like, the musician Brian Eno puts it this way. He says, most of the time when we talk about creative work, we talk about genius, like the individual genius, the very special, superhumanly talented individual, you know? What we don't talk about as much is what Brian Eno calls seniors, which is the collective form of genius. So, you know, you take someone like, I was just watching George Carlin and it's like, here's this guy's on stage and it's just like, you know, one of our most genius comedians in one sense. But he didn't come out of nowhere. What's harder is for people who might, like, say you're a writer or something that's a little bit more solitary.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  You have to really understand that you're always collaborating because you're collaborating with what came before you. You're collaborating with the kind of now that will receive you. And in some ways, you could think about collaborating with the future even because when you write something, you're making something that eventually down the line. You know, when I write a book, it doesn't do anything on its own. It's only when someone picks that book up and opens it that they activate whatever's inside, you know? So creative work is always a collaboration. So I always err on the side of seniors and not genius.

• 8:01Chris Duffy?

  If I was going to pick out the single biggest and most important piece of advice for someone who's thinking about.

• 8:08Chris Duffy?

  Being more creative or being professionally creative, it would be to focus on seigneur instead of genius. Two quotes that I that I think are related here from you is, one is, an artist's job is to collect ideas. And then the other is, nothing is original. All creative work builds on what came before.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so let's take them out of sequence. So the first part, nothing is original. That's that's ancient wisdom, right? That's in the Bible. There's nothing new under the sun. And actually, that idea was borrowed from 2,000 years before from the Egyptians. So that's a very ancient idea. The idea that that there's nothing new and

• 8:42Chris Duffy?

  I love the idea that there's nothing new as an idea is not a new idea. That's incredible.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Not a new idea.

• 8:47Chris Duffy?

  That's incredible.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And neither is the idea that everything's been done. This is a 4,000 year history of writers complaining about how everything's been done. So that's like the starting point. If you say, okay, nothing is completely original. When you start from that place, then your job becomes not to just come up with great ideas, you know, out of your own noggin. It's to expand your brain out into the world and to like, put your tentacles, you know, kind of out into the world and grab stuff and collect stuff.

• 9:19Chris Duffy?

  I took a class once on screenwriting. I had a had a format of movie script. And one of the parts that we spent a lot of time on was how do you come up with an idea for a movie? And the thing that I now can't unsee is this person, this teacher was really talking about how people get so obsessed with the idea of having a completely original idea. Whereas most really successful movies are just take a an existing idea and then put it in a new place or put it in a different context. So the example they gave is like, Alien is a haunted house in space. That's all you needed to do is like, take a classic haunted house movie. And then what if it was in space?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's how they pitch, you know? And that's how they pitch stuff. It's it's this, but this, right? It's it's Jaws in space. And I think that that's where the transformation part comes in. And I think that this is another Brian Eno idea is that it's always generative to take something from one place and you just literally transport it to another place. And in in doing so, you transform it. The reason I really like the steel metaphor. People ask me all the time, oh, Austin, we have to use the word steal, like, isn't stealing bad and stuff. And the reason I like the steal metaphor is that it's kind of like being

• 10:39Speaker 01

  a jewel thief. You know, you're like always casing the joint, like, you're always looking around for like, what are the little bits and nuggets that I might be able to pick up? And I think it causes you to pay a certain kind of attention to the world. Because if you assume that every person you meet has some like little nugget that you could use, something that you could steal, what you do is you pay attention to them in a way that's like really fruitful. And I think that a lot of people who want to be creative, who want to make new stuff, they really need to learn to pay attention to the world. And I just think that the steal metaphor causes people to pay attention to the world in this like, very, very specific and rich way.

• 11:21Chris Duffy?

  You obviously are really cross disciplinary, right? You're an artist, you're a poet, you're a writer, you're an author. I think a lot of people also struggle with the question of how to self define. And so I wonder, how do you think about that? Is that something we should even do?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've gotten to this place where I have started thinking that nouns are more deleterious than verbs in the sense that I think that if you forget about whatever noun you're trying to be, and you just focus on the verbs, the verbs will take you further. I'll be very concrete here. I meet a lot of people who want to be a writer, right? Like, I'd love to be a writer. Ooh, but that writing part, that's, oh, I don't know about the writing part, you know? They would love to have like the noun, right? They'd love to be the writer and like all their ideas about like what goes into that. But the actual verb, the actual thing that you do, that's the thing you have to worry about. And I

• 12:17Speaker 01

  think that, you know, job titles, that's for other people, you know? Like, if you just consider yourself a novelist, well, what happens when you have a really good idea for a screenplay? You know, if you're only a stand up comedian, what happens when you want to do a podcast, right? Like, so if you focus on the verbs that you like to do and what kind of activates your creative mind? Then that will take you someplace, you know, richer and further down the road than what you could imagine just as a noun. And that's why I love to call myself like a writer who draws because it just kind of weirds that writer thing. But I do think that internally, the more you think about the verbs, the things that

• 13:00Speaker 01

  you like to do, that's just way more fruitful than whatever the noun is that you want to be.

• 13:09Chris Duffy?

  We're going to take a quick break for some ads, but when we come back, we will have many more nouns for you to harvest.

• 13:22Chris Duffy?

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• 14:06Chris Duffy?

  In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:15Speaker 03

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• 15:13Chris Duffy?

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• 16:15Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. We're talking about creativity with Austin Kleon. There can be a really high mental bar to think about like, well, what would it mean if I was a writer? Or if I was an artist? But often there's a much lower internal bar to, what would it mean to write something today? What would it mean to draw something today? Right? I wouldn't have to be a capital A artist to take out a pen and sketch something on this piece of paper. It can be bad. I'm still drawing something.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  So the book I'm working on right now that'll come out next year is called Don't Call It Art. And the book is inspired by my kids when they were little. And there's something the artist John Balasari said. He said, you know, I learned so much from watching little kids draw. Kids don't call it art when they're Throwing stuff around, they're just making stuff. And I think that when it comes to making stuff, if you could just forget about art, you know, again, forget about that noun, forget about making art. And you just focus on like, what are the things that you do? Like, we're going to draw a picture and we're going to see what happens. We're gonna get on stage and, and, and tell some jokes. That was the major thing that my kids gave me. It was just like, if you're not worried about the product

• 17:24Speaker 01

  and you're just focused on the process, just how good it feels to be scribbling.

• 17:29Chris Duffy?

  That's something else that I wanted to talk to you about because I noticed that you often write about and describe how your family and your kids are part of your creative life. They're not a separate thing. And I'm wondering, how do you think about that balance between family and inspiration and work?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think of balance at all, and I don't think about separating. I see everything as just a big stew pot. I got really lucky early on. I had a couple of people I looked up to when I was younger that were very involved parents and also brilliant artists. And there didn't seem to be some sort of, I think a lot of people here like, there's a Cyril Connolly line where he says, "The enemy of art is the pram in the hall." So the stroller in the hall is the enemy of art. On the whole, like mothers do so much more labor that studying artist mothers ended up being a way more fruitful thing for me as a dad because it just gave me a higher bar to try, you know, live up to.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But yeah, for me, the kids, I mean, if you are feeling stuck creatively, just borrow a four-year-old for an afternoon and you will see the world the way an artist sees it because everything is new to a four-year-old. They haven't seen this stuff before and they've just acquired language. And so they have all sorts of crazy, they're poets, really. They're like ecstatic poets. I used to just like scribble things that my kids were babbling, you know? Because they're just so, they're so tapped into the world in that kind of psychedelic artist way where they see the world with fresh eyes. And the reason they see them with fresh eyes is they've just never seen this stuff before.

• 19:18Chris Duffy?

  It also feels like there's this level where Especially thinking about, right, like, an artist's job is to collect ideas. You are able to get new ideas from being a parent because you're seeing the same old stuff, the same mundane things, but through this completely different lens where all of a sudden, like, the idea of a lawn isn't just, oh, yeah, everyone has a lawn. It's like, it's grass, and you could do this with the grass, and you know that if you dig, there's like, a worm down here, and what's a worm?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  It's great that you mentioned grass, because, and lawns, because that's what Walt Whitman is doing in the first, you know, poem in, in Song of Myself, in Leaves of Grass, is he's literally looking at a grass and like, talking to a kid about it. So it's like, that's what a poet does. A poet looks at the ordinary and pays really close attention to it. And then, the ordinary plus extra attention equals the extraordinary, you know? But like, yeah, with the kids, I was like, these people are going to be my teachers. I'm gonna make these little beginners my teachers, was kind of my idea. Cause I, I just, like, sort of started out with this idea that they would have way more to teach me than I would have to teach them, and that's what it turned out to be.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  And like, that, that's where the whole idea from this next book came, is that I just was like, what happens when you're the studio assistant to these little pint-sized Picasso's? You know, cause my four-year-olds drew like, every artist dreams of, you know? They would just, just go at it, look at it, ah, yeah, great, and throw it over their shoulder and start over. It's just, just the most magical way of drawing, just the way every artist would love to make work. It was, it was really inspiring.

• 21:01Chris Duffy?

  But this idea that a lot of parenting, I think, can be viewed as like, ugh, mistakes and messes. And that if you look at it in a different way, you know, you gave this example of like, your kids, I think it was your couch, but like, they, they drew in permanent marker on your couch, and all of a sudden, you were like, this is a masterpiece.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  My son Jules just got really into drawing skeletons, and he drew a couple of skeletons on the couch cushions of the outdoor couch. I, you know, I posted it and said, well, sometimes we go overboard, and my friend said, What if you embroidered it? And so my wife actually embroidered over the drawings for the couch cushions. And so it became this whole thing. And it's about dealing with constant uncertainty and everything changing on you all the time. Because that's the thing is that kids are changing so much that every time you think you have them figured out, they change on you again. If you just show up every day and you put in the time and you're flexible and you're adaptable

• 22:03Speaker 01

  and you do what you're supposed to do, something eventually happens.

• 22:08Chris Duffy?

  And this is true with objects too. It's not just with people. It's true with objects is we often think that we take care of things because we love them. But actually, it's just as true that we love things and that they're meaningful to us because we take care of them. That putting in the work builds the relationship. It's not necessarily just one way or the other.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a beautiful idea that I think my friend Rob Walker first turned me on. He has a book called The Art of Noticing. And in that book, he has an assignment he gives his students where the assignment is to care for something. And so you have to care for something for a week. And I think that he got this idea from a student of his who took care of a plant for a week. And he was like, all of a sudden I love plants, you know, because I spent time like caring for this plant. And I think, you know, I see everything as connected. And so it's like that with your art. If you are feeling uninspired and even if you hate your work, there's something about just showing up and going through the motions.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And I love that going through the motions is a very underrated phrase because that's what you do when you're a creative person. It's like, that's the big misunderstanding with creative work is so many people think you have the idea and then you just have to figure out how to express it. And I find that it's really in the work. It's like, writing is not about having an idea and then expressing it. Writing is about figuring out what you think, like figuring out what is going on inside you and what you really think, actually. You don't know it until you see it on the page.

• 23:45Chris Duffy?

  I think that the, one of the biggest misconceptions that I had and that I still try and fight against is this idea that what I'm going for is something perfect. Like if only I could write a perfect book or craft a perfect joke or have a post online that every person who saw it would have to say, well, that is perfect. That's actually not, like, that is something that I kind of think is my goal, but then in practice, the things that I feel the most, are the most meaningful to me, the things that I feel the most connected to are the ones that are like, obviously broken and I found ways to fix and take care of, right?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I think it's really important to think about some of the art that you love or the people you look up to and it's never like the perfect, why is it that we're so attracted to things that are imperfect in other people's work and then we don't let it into our own work? And I think that sometimes when things are imperfect, it lets us into the work a little bit, you know? If something's totally perfect, it's like, well, who would want to enter this thing and enter into a conversation with it? But if things are like, just slightly off, then it like, kind of brings us in. Like, I think the Japanese are a lot better at that than us. You know, I think like, the idea of wabi sabi is like, good, like finds things that

• 25:01Speaker 01

  are like, that have a, you know, like a little bit of scratches and it's been worn in. I love the art of kintsugi, which is when you like, break a pot and you use like, golden glue to put it together and they, they don't try to hide the seams, they actually bring them out. But I think there's a lot to be learned from that tradition of imperfection. That's what punk rock did for me. Like when I, when I discovered punk rock or, you know, some of the real, like, rougher indie filmmakers like Jim Jarmusch or something like that, like that, that's, that kind of stuff, like, really spoke to me as a kid, because it was like, I think it was Bernard Sumner of New Order, he's like, yeah, I saw the Sex Pistols on stage, they were terrible. I wanted to get up on stage and be terrible with them.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  It's like that you see imperfection in someone else and you're like, I want to do that.

• 25:50Chris Duffy?

  My version of this is improv comedy because like, I mean, if it's a really good scene, it means that like people are having so much fun that they're like, I wish I could get up there and like be in that scene. It's so funny. I wish I was part of that. And yeah, you know, I think that probably that we've talked a lot about attention and paying attention to detail. And the thing that I think I've loved the most about performing comedy of that kind with other people is that you're not trying to avoid the mistake. You're trying to look at the mistake and pounce on it and use it as a gift.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:17Chris Duffy?

  Oh, what a fun that is to be like, okay, if you don't, if you don't stumble over your words at all, you don't say anything weird, we're gonna be high and dry up there. Someone needs to do something weird unintentionally. So then we can take that path and make it look good and make it look like it wasn't a mistake at all.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like I live in a city where it's like, keep Austin weird is like the awful slogan we've had for so long. And I've been modifying it myself lately. I've been like, be the weird you wish to see in the world, right? I think about that a lot. And that's kind of what you're talking about on stage. You want something weird to happen just enough to make it interesting, right? And that's what we're wanting. We want to mess up just enough to make things interesting and give us something to work with, you know?

• 27:00Chris Duffy?

  So there's these artistic ways that you can put this into practice, even if you're not, you know, if you have a totally boring, random job that you don't particularly care about, you can still have these creative and artistic outlets in other parts of your life, too.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of the primary things I tell people is to get a hobby. I think hobbies are just so underrated in this culture because we're this culture of like, time is money. And then if you do get a hobby, you're supposed to professionalize immediately. Like, I love riding bikes. And people say, oh, you're a cyclist. I say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not a cyclist. I like to ride a bicycle. I don't have a bunch of gear. It's not about like, you know, optimizing my speed and all that stuff. I like to ride bikes. I like to be an amateur. When you show people the process of everything that goes into what you do. It doesn't devalue it.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  It actually makes it even more valuable. Because there was this idea for a long time that like, but I think we're living in this world where if you can show people some of the work and all the effort that goes into what you do, people feel more attached to the product.

• 28:18Chris Duffy?

  OK, we are going to play a few quick ads, speaking of products, and then we'll be right back after this. Don't go anywhere.

• 28:33Chris Duffy?

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• 29:17Chris Duffy?

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• 29:42Speaker 04

  Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled. No extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com.

• 30:24Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. One of the most amazing tricks for creativity, in my opinion, is to just walk away from a problem and do something else, to let your brain simmer away in the background on the idea or the issue while you do something else entirely, whether that's hanging out with a friend, or swimming, or cooking dinner. I'm so often shocked when I come back that the perfect solution or idea just suddenly appears.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Well, we talked about collaboration earlier, and one of the things that you're always collaborating with is time. Time is really a resource that people don't utilize enough, is what the power of a good night's sleep, or just a 15-minute break, just that time travel of becoming someone else and coming back to your problem. Because I've been through all, and I've been through different things, so now I'm seeing this thing through a different lens. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It's like, people think, if I just sit here and I pound and I pound and I pound and I like, drill through, I'll get to this thing. And it's like, no, the more you like, you put your time in,

• 31:27Speaker 01

  and then you say, okay, I'm gonna walk away, and then you come back. You go away so you can come back, right?

• 31:34Chris Duffy?

  There's like a really lot of examples and a depth of research showing that for creative work, that the kind of the maximum that almost anyone can do is three to four hours of creative work in a day. That there's a long history of that kind of being about the max that you can get done in a day. Which is not to say that you don't do more work in a day, it's just not creative work.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Right. The really intense, like, creative stuff, yeah, I don't have more than three or four hours in me.

• 31:59Chris Duffy?

  We talked a little bit about show your work, and I want to talk about show your work and keep going. I have a newsletter that I know, I'm gonna write it every Friday, it's gonna come out Saturday morning, it's gonna get scheduled. And that just takes all of the decision-making out of it. So then, it's not, am I gonna do this? It's, I am gonna do it, how do I get it done? How do you think about that, like committing your future self to doing something versus leaving yourself this wide open space to kind of do whatever and have it come up? How do you balance those two pieces? Cause you obviously need a little bit of both.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that's, that's, I love that you said, how do you leave this wide open space? That's the known variable, but the unknown is that empty space. What the hell's gonna go into it, right? And so that to me is the spontaneity is the kind of like you, you have the like, you know, you have the date, you have the, the, you know what you're gonna do. You're gonna write a newsletter, but what's gonna go into it? And that's like the spontaneous part. And I think those blackout poems we talked about, when I was making one of those two or three, four or five of those every day, like I, I knew I was gonna sit down and try to make a poem, but I didn't know what it was gonna be. And that was the, I know I was gonna sit down and work, but I didn't know it was gonna happen.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  And I think that's like the magic thing that creative people have to get hooked on. You have to get hooked into the kind of like, what's gonna happen part of it, right? Like to be really, really orderly, to schedule your work, to like show up like it's a job, but then to get hooked into that magic of like, what's gonna happen this time?

• 33:36Chris Duffy?

  I love that. That really resonates for me.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  People ask me like, what's your schedule? And I'm like, well, I know what I'm gonna do on Monday and I know what I'm gonna do on Thursday. Everything else is like, who knows? Like, we don't know what's gonna happen. If I scheduled every portion of my day and my week for something, that would not create the space for new things to fill it and to happen. You know, I think the tension is kind of an interesting idea in creative work. I, I'm a person who thinks that there's a proper tension between opposites in creative work and that actually the energy for someone's work is found in that. So let me give you one of my tensions, which is I find myself to be a deeply lazy person.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  I know we're not supposed to use that word anymore, like laziness doesn't exist or whatever. It's, you know, but I'm lazy, like I'm a lazy person, like left to my own defenses, I would sit around and do nothing, like really, I'd love to lay around and do nothing. But I'm an intensely disciplined person.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  And by discipline, I mean, I take Robert Fripp's definition of discipline, which is making a commitment in time. I know that if I show up in a certain way over time, I will get the things that I want. And so I use my intense discipline to balance out my laziness. But if I was just disciplined, I don't know that I would come up with the same work. You know, because it's like, there's something about that tension between my deep longing to do nothing and to be extremely disciplined. Something arises out of that, right? And I think you can find these opposites and these tensions in your work.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  And I think that like, this happens a lot in, in the creative life. I could just be giving away the fact that I'm a Gemini, if that means anything to people who are, who are listening, but I've had these tensions. I have these opposites that pull at me as a creative person. Pictures and words would be another one. You know, I have this deep longing to like, make things out of language and to move the, you know, activate that part of my brain. But I also have this non-verbal part of my brain that just wants to make pictures. You know, I'm a fairly mediocre writer. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm a perfectly mediocre like artist. But when you put the two together, I become pretty good. Right? And so it's like the tension between those two.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  So I think that a lot of times in people's creative works, they're looking to minimize all tension. Like, well, if there's any tension, I don't want to be a part of it. But I'm always kind of like pushing people to think about the tensions in their lives as it creates energy. If a guitar string is too slack, it just buzzes. It doesn't make any sound. But if you ratchet it up too tight, it's going to snap. The music comes from the proper tension between the two like poles that the guitar string's on. So I think in a lot of creative life, people look at ways like, man, I just like, I gotta chill out, like minimize my tension, you know? And I'm like, no, you need to find the proper tension. You need to find the like, the right tension that makes your work sing.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of that is identifying the opposing forces within you and like trying to wrangle some sort of like, proper tension so you can get like the music.

• 36:58Chris Duffy?

  I've never heard anyone put it that way, but it really resonates with me. Um, resonates, pun intended.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 37:04Chris Duffy?

  Thank you so much.

• 37:08Chris Duffy?

  Still, like an artist we've talked about, Keep Going and Show Your Work, two of your other books. Keep Going is about making art in chaotic times and Show Your Work is about how to put your work out there publicly. Now, the thing that is my personal challenge that I really struggle with, and maybe it's just an emotional thing, is when I combine those two, making art in chaotic times and then putting it out. Because I get so self-conscious about putting things out there that are not directly improving the world at a time when it feels like the world so desperately needs to be improved. And that's often the barrier where I go like, I can't post about this. I can't send an email about my little comedy

• 37:51Chris Duffy?

  show or send them, you know, hey, listen to this great conversation, when it's like, it just feels like it's such a dire time. And it's kind of always a dire time in some ways. So, what do you think about that? How do you think about that for yourself?

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Here's what I think about art. I have friends who think that art can save the world. And I don't think art saves the world at all. I think that art is, trying to throw art at the world is like Kurt Vonnegut said, it's like attacking a knight in armor with a hot fudge sundae. I don't actually think art saves the world. I think it saves lives. Like, I think it saves individual people. And if you do that enough, you save the world in like tiny ways. And so, when I think about like my own work, I'm thinking about just reaching one reader. If I can just like make one reader's day better, maybe they carry a little bit of something into their day that, you know, that spreads gently or, you

• 38:50Speaker 01

  know, and if I can reach like enough people and I can kind of improve their day and I can, I can stand up for the things that I think are worth saving in the culture. Because I think in some ways, just being a person who, being a person that's curious, who pays attention, who spends time making things, these are things that are rapidly leaving our culture. Like, it's just like going away.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  If you can be a person who models that kind of thing, you're already like making a dent in in things, you know? I feel like you just have to really think about the people you're trying to reach. And I think it's good to like go back. I always think about being that kid, you know, being fifteen and growing up in the middle of a cornfield. And how much that music, how much that comedy, how much that, you know, those movies meant to me. But also how that stuff activated a spirit in me that then, you know, made me look at the world a little bit different. So I think that like, I'm not sure that art changes the world, but I think it changes people.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  And I think that's slowly, you know, it it affects change. And I also think that like, everybody needs to discover their gift, like what you've been put here to do. You know, like, I'm not really an activist, like, I'm not very good at that. But I can show up and show people what it's like to think and pay attention and to, you know, have a spine as far as your own point of view goes. And, you know, how to manipulate the world and images and stuff like that. And so I think that if everybody right now would show up and do what they know how to do, like, I think things would be better immediately, actually.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Whatever you've devoted your life to, if it was worth doing six months ago, I think it's worth doing now. You know, you just got to show up and do what you know how to do.

• 40:52Chris Duffy?

  So I struggle with how do I do something that is gonna, you know, when there's only a limited amount of time in my day and in my week, how do I do something that's not going to make any money and potentially be humiliating? And feel really bad.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:08Chris Duffy?

  And yet I know that that is the path towards new, exciting ways of self-expression, is to be humiliated and be terrible at something for a long time, potentially.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  I think about someone like Chris Rock, who, you know, when he works up one of those specials, he gets into a club and there's no phones and he knows it's gonna be bad. And it's just like, it's in private, you know, he's with an audience, but the phone element, not doing things publicly. I think you have to find some sort of woodshed-y, kind of like, like, private place where you could put yourself in that kind of beginner's mind, throw stuff at the wall and see what happens type thing. And so I think that's why side projects and hobbies and stuff like that, putting yourself in a place where you can, you know, have a sort of safe failure.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  When you're starting out, you got nothing to lose, you'll do anything, right? Even a book like Steal Like An Artist, people are like, how'd you write this book? I'm like, I didn't know you couldn't do things. Uh huh. And not knowing, Citizen Kane is a perfect example. Orson Welles said that, you know, how did we do Citizen Kane? And he said ignorance, like sheer ignorance. I didn't know what wasn't possible, and that made it possible, you know, and there's a great, there's a great story in, um, The Element, the Ken Robinson, the late, this is a great Ted, talk about the Ted Talk, right? Ken Robinson, the Ted Talk, where he says, you know, little girl's, you know, drawing in a class and the teacher, you know, the classroom teacher says, what are you drawing? And she says, I'm drawing a picture of God.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  And the classroom teacher says, well, nobody knows what God looks like. And she says, they will in a minute. [laughing] You know, and it's like, [laughing] how do you draw a picture of God? Well, you have to know that you not, you know, you, you, you can. You know, it's not impossible, you know, and I think, but I think that's like with the kids, that was something that really helped is like, what happens when we just sit here and draw something that we know we're just gonna toss in the recycle bin afterwards? Like, what, what happens when we know, you know, we make something that we know is not getting recorded? We make something we know we're gonna burn later, that kind of thing. You know, you're just trying to like, put yourself in that position where you got nothing to lose, again, right?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Right now, you got something to lose. And so you just gotta find those positions where you could be like, those situations where you could put yourself, where you got nothing to lose. That's why I like writing a diary. Like, my diary, I can whine and say awful things that, you know, that I would never want to say publicly. You know, it's the place to be really messy and weird. And then you just like try to find those places in your workday. Where it's like, how can we go at things like we're like doing our diary, you know? Not having anything to lose again, you know?

• 43:59Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  How do you do it? I don't know. It's hard for me, too.

• 44:02Chris Duffy?

  Austin Kleon, thank you so much for letting us steal some of your time and for being on the show. You are fantastic.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Thank you, Chris. This was great. I really had a lot of fun.

• 44:12Chris Duffy?

  That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Austin Kleon. He is the author of Steal Like an Artist: Keep Going and Show Your Work. You can sign up for his newsletter and more of all of his work at austinkleon.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team of artists who are the exact kind of iconoclasts that you want to steal from. On the TED side, we've got the fully formed seniors of Daniela Balarezzo, Ben Ben Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Boha, Nene Laney-Lot, Tansika Sungmanivong, Antonia Lei, and Joseph de Brine.

• 44:53Chris Duffy?

  This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who always demand that we show our work when it comes to citations and evidence. On the PRX side, they keep going and going and going. They are Morgan Flannery, Noargill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who you admire and who you think is more creative and fun than they give themselves credit for. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human.

• 45:24Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 46:12Chris Duffy?

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• 46:40Speaker 05

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• 46:56Speaker 05

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• 47:11Chris Duffy?

  Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by Service Now. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where Service Now's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.