Pod Insights How to Be a Better Human Throwing good parties and building community (w/ Priya Parker) About this episode Many of us are entering the new year with a similar goal — to build community and connect more with others. To kick off season five, Priya Parker shares ideas on how to be the host with the most. An expert on building connection, Priya is the author of “The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters.” Whether it's a book club, wedding, birthday or niche-and-obscurely themed party, Priya and Chris talk about how to create meaningful and fun experiences for all of your guests — including yourself.
For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts http://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts.
For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Chris Duffy? You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this is the first episode of season five of our show. Thank you so much for listening. I am so, so, so glad that we are back. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about what it means to gather together and to gather well. And that feels to me like a very appropriate topic for our first episode back, because what does it mean to reunite with you, the listeners? What does our audio podcast coming back together party look like? I'm kind of joking, but I'm kind of not. Regardless of that, more importantly, what does it look like when you get together in person with your friends, or your family, or your coworkers, or even with strangers? How do you do that in a way that is fun and meaningful, but also builds relationships? In my life, I've been to a few parties that
0:47 Chris Duffy? were so fun and unique that I will think about them forever. One example is, my friend Will once hosted a dinner party where everyone was only allowed to bring different types of soups. And then, after eating a bunch of soup, we all went home before 9:00 PM. To me, oh, that was a perfect event, a truly perfect dinner party. Now, I've also been to some absolutely horrendous, awkward events where I have felt so self-conscious and uncomfortable that I thought that I might explode. One time, I went to this party where the host was trying in experiments, I guess, so we were forbidden to make small talk with any of the other guests there. But the thing is, we didn't know any of the other guests either. So everyone just ended up sitting silently in this kind of like foyer waiting
1:30 Chris Duffy? room while we were waiting for more instructions. It was truly excruciating. Now, today's guest, Priya Parker, is the author of the book, The Art of Gathering. Priya thinks and writes all about bringing people together, and she knows how to do it well. When Priya is involved, there are no excruciating waiting for instruction moments. And from talking to people in my life and hearing from listeners to our show, I know that a lot of people in this new year are thinking about building and maintaining community, that that's a big goal that lots of people are working towards. And to figure out how to do that, to figure out how to gather well and to build community, Priya draws on her background in conflict management. Here's a clip from Priya's TED Talk.
2:11 Speaker 01 Whether I was facilitating dialogues in Charlottesville, or Istanbul, or Ambedba, the challenge was always the same. Despite all odds, and with integrity, how do you get people to connect meaningfully, to take risks, to be changed by their experience?
2:30 Speaker 01 And I would witness extraordinarily beautiful electricity in those rooms. And then I would leave those rooms and attend my everyday gatherings, like all of you, a wedding, or a conference, or a back-to-school picnic. And many would fall flat. There was a meaning gap between these high-intensity conflict groups and my everyday gatherings. Now, you could say, sure, somebody's birthday party isn't going to live up to a race dialogue. But that's not what I was responding to. As a facilitator, you're taught to strip everything away and focus on the interaction between people. Whereas everyday hosts focus on getting the things right, the food, the flowers, the fish knives,
3:16 Speaker 01 and leave the interaction between people largely to chance. So I began to wonder how we might change our everyday gatherings to focus on making meaning by human connection, not obsessing with the canapes.
3:34 Chris Duffy? We will be right back with more from Priya in just a moment. Until then, take a bite of the hors d'oeuvres and listen to these ads.
3:50 Chris Duffy? Today's episode is sponsored by Smart Travel, a new podcast from NerdWallet. You know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right cards, and somehow ends up in first class for the price of coach? Smart Travel is like that friend, but in podcast form. They cover things like the smartest way to book flights without planning your trip around the cheapest days to fly, or the quick math for knowing when to pay with points or just swipe your card. It's like having a travel-savvy tour guide right in your pocket to let you in on all the little-known tips and tricks to avoid all the hassle and extra costs that make travel so much harder than it has to be. Travel smarter and spend less with help from NerdWallet. Follow Smart Travel wherever you get your podcasts.
4:35 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today.
5:14 Chris Duffy? Donate at N R D C dot org slash human and your gift will be matched five times. Today, we're talking about bringing people together, gathering and building community with Priya Parker.
5:29 Speaker 01 Hi there. I am Priya Parker. I am best known for my book, The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters. I'm also a facilitator, a strategic advisor, and host of the Art of Gathering digital course.
5:41 Chris Duffy? So it feels like the beginning of the year is a time when a lot of people are thinking about putting new habits and routines into place. And a lot of people are thinking about wanting community and wanting connection with people. So are there special ways that we should be thinking about gathering and planning for gatherings in the beginning of the year that can make it last all the way to the end of the year?
6:04 Speaker 01 Fortunately, most of us, whether we think about it or not, are gathering all the time anyway. We gather in our classrooms. We gather in our workplaces, remote or in person. We gather to celebrate, to witness people getting married, to mourn, to vote, to...
6:26 Speaker 01 Dance it all off. And part of what is unique about gathering is that it's something that we've been doing since time immemorial. But so often, the ways in which we are gathering are no longer serving us.
6:40 Chris Duffy? Hmm.
6:41 Speaker 01 And it is a learnable skill to make the time that you spend with other people better, more meaningful. And sometimes that means actually gathering less. Sometimes in our workplaces, we need to be meeting less, not more. Often, it simply means actually to pause and ask this very simple, but also radical question, which is, at the end of the day, how do I want to be spending my time? And with whom?
7:05 Chris Duffy? I've heard a lot of people talk about how, if you want to like predict the kind of person you're going to be, or what's going to happen in your life, or, you know, what your professional successes are going to look like, the best predictor is to look at the people who you spend the most time with. Who do we want to be in our circle? Who do we want to have influence us? And I think sometimes we don't think about it like that. Like, who do we want to be more like? Because they're going to have an influence on us that we're not totally aware of in the moment.
7:30 Speaker 01 So at the deepest level, and it's not to say, you know, all of friendship is strategic. It's actually saying something slightly different, which is that in modern life, unlike our ancestors, we have the beautiful and terrifying opportunity to, at some deep level, choose who we pray with or don't, who we dine with or don't. The majority of us are living with, being neighbors with, working with, wedding people who are different from us in some way, shape, or form. And so, within that level of choice, what are the values of the people that you spend time with? What are they, what are they competing over?
8:15 Speaker 01 Right? I often have a friend who says, part of her confusion is, she doesn't know who her Joneses are. And I said, what do you mean by that? And she said, well, everybody has Joneses. You know, that old saying, like, keeping up with the Joneses? You can't apparently escape the Joneses, but you can decide who they are.
8:31 Chris Duffy? Hmm.
8:32 Speaker 01 Do you want to be? With people at a default level who are fundamentally reading more than you are and being like, oh, my gosh, I'm not, I haven't caught up on the latest, I haven't been reading it the way that they are. Or is it that you want to have a free throw that's like better than all of your other friends free throw? Or is that not the currency? And at some deep sociological, simple, banal level, every set of group has its values, has its norms, has the things that they compete over, has the thing that make them laugh. And at some deep level to begin to pause and ask, who do I want to be my Joneses?
9:06 Chris Duffy? Who are some people where you're like, I don't want these to be my Joneses? One way that I would frame it is like, I like that my people around me are when we have like dinner together, we're bringing maybe not the best looking, but like a home cooked meal, rather than buying some sort of really fancy, expensive takeout and bringing that over to someone else's house. I like that. And that's not to say that, look, if you love fancy takeout, good for you. But for me, I'm glad that I come home to people who are like, maybe we'll just make some pasta, you know?
9:37 Speaker 01 You know, groups have shared questions. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator and I, I work with groups. I work with groups that are experiencing some kind of transition or crisis and help them have the conversations that they've been avoiding having. And one of the things that I find over and over again is that groups are relevant to the people in them when they share the same questions. So for example, the question might be in one group, how do I make the best Arabiada pasta known to man? And in another group, it might mean in a church, for example, what does closeness to God look like? And part of the opportunity and, you know, at different moments in life,
10:18 Speaker 01 we choose the groups that we are part of and there, but there are moments of transition often, at least in the US, after college or during college or at the kind of quarter life, what's that currently called? The quarter life crisis, you know, 25, like who are my people? Who do I want my people to be? Even if you think about your job, like what are the organizations? If I enter an organization, if I enter a tech company, if at the simplest level, it's like groups carry implicit or explicit questions. And as you are starting to navigate the groups of your life to think about, is this how I want to be spending my time? Do I want to be? Thinking obsessively like about like the shape of a collar in this season's fashion show.
11:01 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
11:01 Speaker 01 For some people, the answer is yes.
11:03 Chris Duffy? Oh, for sure.
11:04 Speaker 01 I absolutely want to be thinking about that shape. And I've been thinking about how the collar's shape has changed over 250 years and I finally found my people.
11:10 Chris Duffy? Uh huh.
11:11 Speaker 01 Right? Or do I want to be thinking about like the nature of a changing democracy? At some deep level, when you long-term communities start to have shared questions and contentment in group life is when their questions are also the questions you carry.
11:31 Chris Duffy? It's really interesting that you frame it as shared questions and not shared values, which I know sometimes people talk about in groups. I feel like that's intentional.
11:38 Speaker 01 You know, I am currently working on my next book and part of what I'm looking at is looking at long-term, sustainable communities, particularly across difference. And again, in traditional communities, our values at some level are passed down, right? My, my great-grandmother's values, my great-grandfather's values are perhaps the same values as mine, or I've been told they should be. And part of modern life is we can enter and exit as many communities as you want. It's never been easier to exit a church or synagogue or mosque. It's never been easier to exit a friendship or a marriage. And so part of what ends up becoming interesting and sustainable is when the way a group spends
12:19 Speaker 01 its times or the questions that it asks, and yes, underlying values are absolutely a part of it, but give kind of a forward momentum. They give a spark in a life that is the opposite of flat. They allow people to kind of know what the collective project is. I remember years ago hearing David Brooks speak and he said, "No question worthy of pursuit is answerable in a lifetime."
12:44 Speaker 01 And I'm a facilitator. I think of my core craft, like the thing that I have been working on for the last 25 years, is how do you create and structure a conversation within a room that people are trying to avoid but know that they need to have? And how do you do it in a way that creates breakthrough? That, to me, is a question worthy of pursuit.
13:05 Chris Duffy? I really loved your book, The Art of Gathering. I thought it was so... It both is philosophical, but it's also very practical. And you already brought up how you have worked in conflict resolution. You've worked all over the world. You've worked in Zimbabwe. You've worked in the United States. You've worked in the Middle East. Something that I thought that I hadn't really heard about before is the idea that, obviously, we know there can be unhealthy conflict, but that there can also be unhealthy peace. Can you talk about that?
13:33 Speaker 01 I'm biracial. I'm bicultural. My mother's Indian. My father is white American. They met at Iowa State. And I was born in Zimbabwe because it was the closest hospital at the time that would accept an interracial couple from the village they lived in, Botswana. And they moved a lot. And eventually, when they moved back to the US, to Virginia, within a year, they separated. And within two years, they divorced. And within three years, they each remarried other people. But when they announced their separation, everyone was shocked because they never fought. How could these people getting a divorce? They don't fight. And from a very young age, I began to realize that human connection is as threatened by
14:16 Speaker 01 unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict. I know that I'm a conflict-averse, conflict-resolution facilitator. So like, to this day, right, 20 years, 25 years into this, when the kind of, you know, things start getting heated, my palms sweat, my heart starts beating, you know, my body wants to flee. And I think one of the reasons I'm a relatively effective facilitator is because I have deep empathy for the people in the room who also want to jet, right? Get me out of here. I've learned, kicking and screaming, that actually, learning to hold healthy heat isn't only good for communities and for groups and for friendships, but is also a learnable skill. And that in a group, you can get better at this if you choose to try.
14:58 Chris Duffy? What would some of the first steps to get better at holding healthy heat be? What would you suggest for someone who's listening?
15:06 Speaker 01 So first is to start becoming aware, to be observant of your own conflict style. Are you conflict averse? Are you conflict seeking? Sometimes I use the language, are you a smoother over or a peacemaker? Are people come to you to kind of like cool things down or bring things together? Or are you more of like a poker or a proter or a troublemaker? Chris, do you feel like you know yours?
15:28 Chris Duffy? Oh, sir, I'm 100% conflict averse, smoother over, peacemaker. Like, that is, and also that's why I got into comedy, too. It's like, if I can make you laugh, then we're all having fun. I've pierced the bubble of the tension and we let it out with a laugh. For sure, that is me.
15:44 Speaker 01 That's amazing. Well, so many studies actually show that one of the, one of the most powerful forms of, of being able to hold healthy heat, can you guess?
15:53 Chris Duffy? Is humor? Could be.
15:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:55 Chris Duffy? Yeah, I believe that.
15:56 Speaker 01 It's humor. There was a study that showed there was a woman who could predict astronaut teams that were at NASA, whether or not they'd be effective. And the number one quality was humor.
16:08 Chris Duffy? Interesting.
16:08 Speaker 01 And
16:09 Chris Duffy? I'll tell you, I'd be the least effective astronaut of all time. They would have a great time as I was vomiting in space, but I would not be someone you want to go to space with.
16:16 Speaker 01 Your jokes would be the social lubricant of them not killing each other.
16:19 Chris Duffy? Yeah, yeah, they'd eject me, they'd really quickly shoot me out through the airlock. But in the moments before they did that, I would definitely be having them laugh. Yeah.
16:26 Speaker 01 Exactly. I mean, humor is actually an amazing way in to holding healthy heat. And as you know, as a comedian, it's actually a learnable skill. Like humor takes the heat out of certain things. So know your conflict style. Become a comedian like Chris. And then third is starting to build the muscles, particularly within a group. Conflict is deeply cultural. There are societies that are, that are conflict seeking and there are societies that are conflict averse. And one of the core principles between those that are able to have conversations like these are the ones that separate people's opinions from their selves.
17:00 Speaker 01 And but within, again, friend groups, within teams of in the workplaces, you can actually create intentional cultures of healthy heat.
17:09 Chris Duffy? There are two other ideas that I've heard you discuss before that I have really stuck with me. And this feels very related to, but one is as you're creating the the format or the structure, especially when you're dealing with something like heat that can, you know, too much can feel dangerous and too little feels unproductive. I've heard you talk about this idea that as a host, you want to have generous authority. Whatever happens is going to happen that you actually it is more generous to take charge. So what does that look like in practice?
17:38 Speaker 01 So the biggest mistake we we make when we gather is we assume that the purpose is obvious and shared.
17:46 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
17:47 Speaker 01 Oh, I know what a birthday party is. I know what a staff meeting is. I know what a wedding is. And because we don't pause, actually ask, why are we doing this? What is the purpose? Why are we getting married? We should ask that first. Why are we having a wedding? We tend to repeat old forms. And the biggest shift is to first ask, particularly when it seems totally obvious, why are we doing this? What is the need here? Right? If I'm turning thirty seven or forty seven or sixty seven, what is it in this moment in life, in my life? What's a need in my life that I might be able to address by bringing together other people? Is it adventure? Is it curiosity? Is it nostalgia? Is it feeling a sense of loneliness? Those are actually different formations of a party.
18:30 Speaker 01 And part of the role of a host in modern life is particularly if you have, if you're creating a sharper gathering, you're creating a gathering that might be a pickleball tournament for people who have never played pickleball before, or a like rave, you know, fill in the blank. You need to really actually help people onboard to begin to understand what that is. And a good host, you know, gathering isn't just about connection and love. It is, but it's also about power. It is the radical decision to say, I think a certain group of people should spend their time in a very specific way. Are you onboard? So a good host practices what I call generous authority.
19:11 Speaker 01 And that is using your power for the good of the group to help it achieve its purpose. And so often, we abdicate our role as hosts because we don't want to impose on each other. But when you actually have a specific idea, then to actually help people understand, what is that world that you're building and how do I be successful there? You need to actually help protect people from each other, connect them to each other and to the purpose, and temporarily equalize them. And to do that before anyone enters the room. So generous authority isn't like having people come in and be like, this is how this is going to go. It's actually pausing well before and beginning to think like, okay, what is a need in my life? How do I actually begin to tell a story that invites people?
19:53 Speaker 01 It's a very simple way of thinking about it is host a gathering you want to attend, but then bring people along.
20:05 Chris Duffy? Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back with more from Priya.
20:20 Chris Duffy? This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold, brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to
21:02 Chris Duffy? environmental change. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.
21:14 Chris Duffy? This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. With the holidays approaching, it's a good time to give your home a little attention. Maybe that means making room for guests, finally organizing that closet, or finding a few things to make your space feel more festive. I personally started with my garage, which had become a real mess, the place where things go to be forgotten. I found some storage racks on Wayfair that helped me get things organized. And while I was browsing, I also checked out their selection of Christmas trees, which were beautiful and festive, and I'm really excited about having for the holidays. What I love is it's so easy to find what you're looking for using the filters, customer photos, and reviews on Wayfair. I always feel confident that I have found the right fit for my home. And if you want a shortcut to the good stuff, shop Wayfair Verified.
21:57 Chris Duffy? Their product specialists hand vet everything, so you know you're getting a quality product. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.
22:20 Speaker 02 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.
22:55 Chris Duffy? And we are back. People sometimes think gathering is inherently an extroverts game. And you've talked about how introverts are often the best hosts. And it's because there are so many gatherings that they don't want to be at. So if you can design the gathering that you do want to be at, it's going to be specific, it's going to be unique, it's going to be more thoughtful. So introverts. Are actually the same way that like as a conflict diverse person, you're a better conflict mediator.
23:21 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:22 Chris Duffy? Introverts are sometimes the best hosts and the best planners of gatherings.
23:25 Speaker 01 Absolutely. I mean, when I began to research my book, The Art of Gathering, I started probably in 2012 and the book came out in 2018. And one of the things that I interviewed over 100 different types of gatherers from all walks of life, a hockey coach, a rabbi, a photographer who has 10 minutes with a head of state and 19 bodyguards in the room. Like, what does he actually do minute by minute to shift the room? And one of the things I found over and over again was that many of the people, other people told me who were amazing gatherers, self-identified as introverts, or often on the outside of things. And I asked one of them, why do you think this is? And she said, well, I don't know about other people, but I am so uncomfortable at so many of the gatherings I go to that I
24:09 Speaker 01 began to create the gatherings I wish existed in the world. And it seems like other people like them. And so these gatherings, and it's not sort of relying on the charisma of your personality, it's actually having deep thought, it's making structure into it. So it could be something as simple as a dinner party. This is a real example where a journalist came to me at the, when I came out with The Art of Gathering, she was assigned to host a dinner party based on Art of Gathering principles. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. Ask this question. What is a need that by bringing together a specific group of people, you might be able to address? And she was like, I don't know if this really counts. Sounds a little weird. Okay, one note to self, if your idea sounds a little weird, keep going. Like, you're moving in the right direction.
24:54 Chris Duffy? That is such the rule for comedy as well. If it doesn't sound weird, it's probably boring. And if it sounds weird, people are gonna love it.
25:00 Speaker 01 Yes. And so this woman was thinking, okay, what's a need in my life? She's like, I don't know, I'm exhausted. And I was like, okay, tell me more. She said, well, I'm a worn out mom. I'm a journalist, but I'm also, I'm totally exhausted. I was that, she was like, in fact, the other day I was at a friend's house and she cut me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and she fed me baby carrot sticks and I burst into tears. And she said, because it'd been a long time since I was the one being taken care of. I was like, okay, follow that thread, right? Found a need, found a pain, found an ache. What if I threw a dinner party for my other worn out moms? Great, give it a name. And she called it the worn out moms hootenanny.
25:40 Speaker 01 And I said, great, make it tighter, make it more specific. It is comedy, make it more specific. And she said, if you talk about your kids, you have to take a tequila shot. Right? And she's all of a sudden, it's like the building of a world. There's, and so the last thing I'd say is, a gathering, particularly when you're thinking of like, what, how could we spend our time? It's an idea, it's a promise, it's the creation of a temporary alternative world. And so, part of gathering is you're telling people a story. You're inviting them to choose one part of their identity and heighten it, just for a night, just for a morning, or take an entirely new identity. We also often think we have to, success or meaning
26:20 Speaker 01 or a beautiful night is to unify the group. But actually, success or meaningful connection is when you complicate the individual.
26:28 Chris Duffy? One of the things that I took away most from your book and hearing you talk and doing research about you is this idea that a good gathering is actually, you use the word disputable a lot, that a good gathering is something that someone could disagree with and say, actually, this isn't for me. That like, when we go for, everyone's gonna love it. Often, no one really loves it, everyone just doesn't have a problem with it. So, one example you gave is a woman who, it was her birthday and she decided she wanted to have more of an adventure. So she invited a bunch of people to wake up before the sunrise, go to the ocean with her, watch the fisherwomen pull in their fish, and then watch the sunrise. And that's a thing where, a lot of people are gonna go, I do not want to be awake at
27:11 Chris Duffy? 4:30 in the morning. So, a no. But the people who do, it's this, it's a real thing. And it doesn't have to be that dramatic, but I think this disputable piece really, that really unlocks something for me, because that's something I never thought about before.
27:26 Speaker 01 It's disputable, it is not necessarily for everyone, in the sense that they're like, I'll hit snooze on that invitation. But also, counterintuitively, all of these things show that actually, when you have some amount of, a little bit of shared struggle, right? The moment where, at the wedding, it starts pouring rain, and everyone starts, you know, screaming and Then laughing and then pops their umbrellas and then that actually start realizing those umbrellas have no point. They start just dancing in the mud, right? That's the moments we remember. Those are the moments where there's like a little bit of like a rip in the universe. And so disputables both to sort of understand like who should emerge, but it's also to to push us a little is to help us
28:08 Speaker 01 get out of our, our kind of our everyday loops or tracks.
28:12 Chris Duffy? I I also think if you're someone like me who is conflict averse or doesn't want fears a lot of like imposing on other people or making them feel bad. I just feel like it is such a an important reminder and a gift to remember that people can say no. I feel like I always underestimate how much people love to be invited to things, even when they are going to say no. It's so rare that someone is like, how dare you invite me to that party? That doesn't sound fun. They're like, that's so nice. I don't want to do that. I'm not gonna come.
28:42 Speaker 01 I still want to be invited.
28:44 Chris Duffy? I will just say personally, if you invite me to an event that starts at 10 P M. There is zero chance that I will be there and I love to get the invite. I love to know that you're about to, you're gonna go dancing from 11 to four. That is absolutely unfathomable to me, and yet I love that to know that you're doing it.
29:01 Speaker 01 And so to actually have ties in which you're inviting each other to the things that you love, but also giving each other off ramps is the key to long term sustainable, sustainable relationships and friendships. And to let, give people the dignity of letting them make the decision themselves.
29:19 Chris Duffy? So I have a one year old, first child, and before he was born, I had a monthly gathering that I would do. I had moved to Los Angeles and we would, I really wanted to get to know the city better. And I also wanted to spend time with friends. So we created this thing called the L A Adventure Club where we just went to a neighborhood that we hadn't gone to before. We'd spend the hours of 10 to noon, exploring a neighborhood and then we'd get lunch. It was so fun. It was great. I did it like clockwork every month. Since our kid has been born, I have done it maybe once or twice in a year. And I feel the loss of it. What happens when you have a gathering that really means a lot?
30:02 Chris Duffy? And then you kind of can't do it anymore, or you're struggling to do it.
30:05 Speaker 01 First, congratulations.
30:07 Chris Duffy? Thank you.
30:08 Speaker 01 And second, welcome to life.
30:12 Chris Duffy? Yes, totally.
30:15 Speaker 01 And, you know, so what I hear and what you're saying is, at a very specific moment in time, you had, you saw a need, you had energy around it. It turned out to be a shared need. If people were like, yes, absolutely, I want to go to Chris's adventure club. And for a period of time, all of the variables worked. And then, something changed. So the first thing I would just think is, when you start noticing this loss, to ask, is it the exact form that I deeply miss? And do you need to talk to your partner about making, if this makes, if this is a really important part of you, to continue to feel sane around? Are there other negotiations around the rest of the week? That you are willing to kind of shift and that you actually do this?
30:57 Speaker 01 You realize this is a really important part of your identity and your sense of friendship? The second, is everyone else still deeply attached to this form? Is this a workable form that because of all sorts of different reasons, Saturday at 10 a.m. is disproportionately important and available to like the friends in our life? Third, what is it about this form that I loved? Was it that it got me to different parts of the city? Was it that the frame of our mind, because of the time of day, or because we just knew it was adventure, had me interacting with friends in a way that we don't normally overpass on a Saturday night? Can I create this in a different form and what might that be? And then the last thing I'll just say is, to give yourself some grace. And parenthood is a leveling.
31:38 Speaker 01 And there are massive shifts that are happening between you and your little family of three that needs some space to take new forms. And zero to three is a really intense time for most family structures. And again, it's just, it's a different formation. And it doesn't mean that all of your energy should just go towards your family. Studies now show, all, Surgeon General also issued a warning that parenting is in crisis, right? You need, we need to have friends, we need to have other identities. But all of this to say is, become curious about why you love this specific formation. And then run some experiments to see, what is the current next form now? And to also give yourself some grace to be able to realize like, there is a unique chemical composition here. And what of this is sparking in me?
32:21 Speaker 01 And knowing that it might take a new form as you grow.
32:24 Chris Duffy? Hmm. That's really helpful. I love that. It also makes me think, an example I've heard you sometimes give when you talk about how an artful rule can make a big difference in a community is of an online community that is actually a group of people who do not have children. There's this community, we are child free. And they created a really thoughtful rule where they said, we are not for dating. We are not going to be like to meet a romantic partner. And that is just our rule, that we are going to have all sorts of other connections, but it's not going to be a dating or singles community. And because that would change what we're going for here.
32:58 Speaker 01 This was from a monthly newsletter I do that's free and open to the public. And I did a newsletter about how pop up rules that are deeply and well thought through, we think of them as deeply restricting or controlling, but a well designed rule, as any game designer will tell you, actually allows the creation of a world and the protection of a world. If this began to become a dating site, it became a different set of questions.
33:22 Chris Duffy? Mm hmm.
33:23 Speaker 01 Right? A different set of, a different geography of thought, a different geography of interest. And they wanted to protect this very unique space online that was a closed and private community that you could choose to enter by asking, what does it look like to have in our adult life to not have children? And what are the unique conversations that people who share those questions can have?
33:46 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by ADT. It's that time of year again when life gets busy, back to school, back to work, back to routine. When everyone is out the door and on the go, it's comforting to know your home is taken care of while you're away. ADT makes that part easy. Enjoying the little moments with friends and family is easier when you have one less thing on your mind. With their customizable systems that can be professionally installed, ADT has your home security covered. The ADT Plus app lets you access your whole system from your phone. You can arm, disarm, and even check live camera feeds. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT.
34:29 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by Peloton. Sometimes the world gets loud. There's always something to think about, something to check, something demanding your attention. And one of the things I love about moving is that for a little while, you can turn some of that noise down. Maybe it's a run, a walk, a hike, whatever gets you moving. You focus on the next step, your mind gets quieter, and you get a chance to be right where you are. Peloton helps you find that feeling. And now, the new Peloton Tread Flex makes the joy of running feel even more accessible. It's movable, foldable, and designed to fit easily into your space. All you need is a corner, not a home gym. Run, walk, or hike when you need to, then roll it away when you don't. With programs for every level and instructors who feel more like friends than drill sergeants, Peloton meets you where you are. Let yourself run.
35:14 Chris Duffy? Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold,
35:57 Chris Duffy? brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. I didn't actually know that you were involved in improv, and that was a part of your background, but it makes so much sense to me now. That's a part of my background, too, and something I really love and working on this book about humor and how we can have more laughter in our lives and develop humor. And part of the interview for that has been talking to these two, I'm sure you know them, but maybe people listening don't, two of the most legendary improvisers, these Chicago improvisers, TJ and Dave. There's this kind of... Apocryphal story that they won in award, right?
36:40 Chris Duffy? That Dave Pasquaz won this award for best improviser. And then when he got up to get the award, he said, I've always been taught that my job is to make the other people look better. So I'm sorry and I'll try and do better. That was his acceptance speech. And it feels like so, I feel that spirit, that energy so much in you and your work is really trying to use your time, to use your gifts to, to help other people to look better, to do better, to feel better. And there's that, there's a real generosity to this, which again, I think is a little bit counter to the maybe popular understanding of what a gathering, what a birthday party is, right? It's like, it's about me, it's my wedding, it's my birthday party, it's my baby shower, it's whatever.
37:25 Chris Duffy? And I think you're really, you're trying to reframe this. It feels like in this way that actually is not about centering the person, but rather centering the community.
37:34 Speaker 01 I really appreciate that. I'm very touched by that. I think you can absolutely gather in a way that is deeply selfish, right? And I think that unfortunately in our like over commercialized, over capitalized, like deeply almost like branded life events, it can actually become that, right? Whether it's like the sweet, the race to the sweet 16, but it's actually all about the stuff, right? Or how much money is spent or in weddings, like how much, again, how much money is spent and how, and these are like shows strategically, historically, tribally of status. And at the deepest level, part of like our lonely loneliness crisis, I believe it's
38:16 Speaker 01 for many structural reasons, it's for economic reasons, it's for historical reasons. And one of the norms, you said it earlier, that I think leaves us from each other is this.
38:28 Speaker 01 I convoluted, I don't know where it fully comes from, it comes from a good place of like a desire to not impose on one another. Mm hmm. And that instinct to not impose, it's become distorted somehow, that instinct to not impose, quote unquote, is leaving us deeply lonely. I had a friend, and all of the examples I share, I have permission to share, I had a friend, she lived in New York City, she, her father died, and her father was an Egyptian immigrant to Germany. And her father passed away and she went, she flew back home to Germany to, for the funeral. And she came back and I said, you know, how are you doing? And she said, it was really nice to be there for my mother.
39:11 Speaker 01 And, and that, but I still feel a huge loss. And it was sort of strange because none of my present life, none of my adult friends, none of who I've become living in the city for the last 15 years were there. And so I feel this kind of like false limb of like, there was this funeral, but I wasn't funeraled. I was there, my primary role was, as I wanted it to be, was to be a support to my mother and to see my childhood friends. And so I said to her, well, what if we hosted some kind of funeral? And she said, well, what do you mean? And I said, well, and I also felt kind of a loss, like I, as her friend, that one of the biggest things that has happened in her entire life has happened and I didn't have
39:54 Speaker 01 a way to engage. I struggled to have a language for it. We created this shiva, sort of sitting shiva from the Jewish tradition, which she had, she had within her extended family, but it was also, there's a death ritual in Islam, which she also came from that tradition, where she kind of put together these different deep wisdoms and instincts that we want to be together, but in this modern way. And so. Very practically, she invited, I think it was forty friends, she invited, she told them the story of what happened. Again, tell the story, bring people in. She invited them to wear dark colors, black or navy blue, should they like. She, again, she spelled it all out. Please come at six P M. We will start at six thirty. We will feed you at eight P M.
40:36 Speaker 01 There will be a feast. Please do not come or leave between the hours of six thirty and eight, because we will be gathering.
40:42 Chris Duffy? Hmm.
40:43 Speaker 01 And she sat in the middle of this kind of, circle is the wrong word. We were all like in a living room and she sat in a chair and she just told us stories about her father. And she showed us photos of him. And she laughed and she cried and we laughed and we cried. And we started to realize like, oh, my gosh, we thought this was just our friend. Actually, she's exactly her father's daughter. And then at the end, she played a surah that he would listen to every morning in the shower. And then we closed and then we ate. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful for all of us. And her instinct in the beginning was like, is this selfish? I'm asking all these people to come and mourn for me? I don't know, I can't impose. But at the deeper level, because she was willing to sit there, she
41:25 Speaker 01 became a vessel. It was a deeply generous act. Half of us that were in the room crying for her, but also for ourselves, of the people that we've left, of the selves that we've left, of realizing, oh, we haven't necessarily mourned the loss of people in our lives that the friends of ours haven't been able to see. And part of what she was finding her way to was like a modern ritual in modern life, where the people, again, I know I sound like a broken record, you don't live or die or eat or breathe or in the same plot of land your entire life. And so when we actually are deracinated and lose the rituals from which we came, we need to replace them with something. And that, and, and part of that is experimentation. And when it is relevant and when it hits a need and when it's a shared
42:07 Speaker 01 need, it might begin to stick and invite new rituals into our common culture together.
42:13 Chris Duffy? That's such a beautiful example you gave of, of your friend. But I, I want to just also point out that even in the simple gatherings, part of what can make it feel really elevated and special and meaningful is just like having those rituals, right? Having the thing that you start. So for example, like at our family dinner thing that we do, one thing that we do is we always end by taking a blurry picture of everyone there. So it's just like you move the phone and everyone waggles their heads as fast as they can. And the picture comes out blurry and it's just like a funny little ritual. And just that simple like ritual, which he was explicit, like I am creating a ritual so that this will feel like a ritual. It has kept the thing going.
42:49 Speaker 01 Rituals give meaning to life. Rituals allow us to feel an obligation to something, right? Like, it's not rocket science, but for whatever reason, we humans need rituals to bind us to each other, to break us apart from each other, and that it is both the agony and the ecstasy of modern life that we craft the rituals.
43:10 Chris Duffy? Priya, it has been such a gift to talk to you. Thank you so much for making the time and for being on the show.
43:15 Speaker 01 Thank you so much for having me and for modeling amazing hosting.
43:19 Chris Duffy? Wow, okay, I'll take it. I'll take it.
43:25 Chris Duffy? That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Priya Parker. Her book is called The Art of Gathering, and she's got a digital course called The Art of Gathering on her website. She's also got the New Rules of Gathering Guide. And listeners of this show can get 15% off that course with the discount code BETTERHUMAN. Now, they are not sponsoring us. This is not an ad. We are just sharing that. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects, at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who gathers well, and I mean well. They gather. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balorso, Ben Ben Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Laney Lott, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBryne.
44:06 Chris Duffy? This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas. On the PRX side, it is always an event when this crew assembles: Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening. We are so glad to be back with this season. You can listen on Amazon Music, or you can just ask Alexa, "Play How to Be a Better Human" on Amazon Music. Wherever you are listening, please share this episode with a friend or a family member who you think would enjoy it. Send it to someone who you'd like to gather with. We'll have more episodes of How to Be a Better Human coming to you soon. Thanks again, and take care.
44:50 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment when the task feels so big it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human and your gift will be matched five times.
45:39 Chris Duffy? With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See Capital One dot com slash bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.
46:09 Speaker 03 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini. That's G O O dot G L E slash Workspace.
46:41 Speaker 04 Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.
Previous How changing your story can change your life (w/ Lori Gottlieb) (re-release) Next How to turn climate anxiety into action (w/ Luisa Neubauer) (re-release) Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
