TOMS: Blake Mycoskie (2019)

Blake Mycoskie started and sold four businesses before age 30. But only in Argentina did he discover the idea he'd want to pursue long term. After seeing a shoe drive for children, he came up with TOMS — part shoe business, part philanthropy. PLUS for our postscript "How You Built That," we check back in with Dillon Hill, who built Gamers Gift to help bedbound and disabled patients enjoy a wide range of places and experiences through virtual reality. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  OK, so at some point in the past decade, you or someone you know probably owned a simple pair of cloth shoes. And there's a good chance those shoes may have been Tom's. Because in the past decade, Blake Mycoskie built a multimillion-dollar shoe empire inspired by a simple cloth shoe he once saw in Argentina. But Blake's journey to shoes took a lot of detours. This story first ran in 2017. Enjoy.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of freaked out. And I got this small army of interns to help basically be customer service, to email and call all these people and let them know that there was no chance that they were going to get their shoes in the four days or five days the website promised. It was going to be more like a couple of months. And I literally flew to Buenos Aires, took a taxi to this guy's house, Juan Torres, who was making the shoes in his garage for us at the time. And I walked in, and with the little Spanish eye, I knew I said something like, muchos zapatos rápido.

• 1:15Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 1:27Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how Blake Mycoskie turned a goodwill mission into a multimillion-dollar shoe empire and created a business model unlike anything anyone had seen before.

• 1:41Guy Raz?

  So I should probably let you know right at the outset here that today's show is going to be a little bit different. Because normally, in the first half of the show, we hear the story of how an entrepreneur painstakingly builds his or her business from the ground up, and then how it goes from there, right? And normally, it's just one business. But with Blake Mycoskie, it is not just one. Because before he even turned 30, he'd already launched four companies, and some of them did pretty well. And as for his best-known business, Tom's Shoes, we're not even going to get there for a while, so hang tight.

• 2:23Guy Raz?

  Blake's very first business dates back to the mid 1990s when he was a freshman in college. Growing up, he'd been a pretty good tennis player. He even played against Andy Roddick in high school. And Blake was recruited to play at Southern Methodist University. And everything was going according to plan. That is, until one day, when he injured his Achilles tendon.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  I had this big cast on and crutches, and I wasn't able to play tennis for several months as I did rehab. But the other thing I couldn't do is I actually couldn't carry my laundry down to the facility in the college dorm. And so my laundry was piling up in my room, and my roommate was probably not liking it that much. And this is hard to believe, but this is back before any search engines, so we had the Yellow Pages. And I remember looking in the Yellow Pages to find a place that would come pick up and deliver my laundry back to me, because I physically couldn't do it. And there was nothing like that in Dallas that I could find at the time that would come to the campus and do that. And that ultimately led to my first business, which was called Easy Laundry.

• 3:30Guy Raz?

  Blake partnered with his roommate, and eventually, they figured out that the key to getting customers wasn't through the students, but actually through their parents. So the next year, he and his roommate got a booth at the freshman orientation.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  So the parents are kind of going, they're just kind of signing up for everything. They're getting the books, they're getting the this, they're getting that. And they get to the laundry thing, and they don't know how long we've been in business, or if every kid on campus does it or not. But, gosh, here's a chance to sign their kid up for something that's not that expensive. It'll help make sure that the kids don't ruin their clothes their freshman year if they haven't been used to washing and drying their own clothes. And it saves them some time that they can use for other things. And we had a pretty good pitch. And within a series of like two or three days, we did like $80,000 in prepaid laundry sales for the year.

• 4:16Guy Raz?

  From there, they actually expanded to four other colleges in Texas. And then, they were doing so well that Blake dropped out of SMU to focus entirely on the company. And after a few years, they decided to sell it. So at 21, Blake walked away with about $100,000 and lots of time to kill.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I actually took a trip out to Los Angeles for the first time, to take a little bit of time off, visit a couple of friends that were going to school out here. And when I was in LA, I saw these huge advertising displays on the sides of buildings. Now-- Growing up in Texas, I'd never seen that. I'd never seen like a massive ad for an iPhone or a movie or whatever, you know, painted on the side of a building. Yet, there was a lot of that in Los Angeles. And I noticed that there not only was a lot of it, but there was almost exclusively advertising movies and TV shows. So, the specific industry that LA was known for. And I remember sitting there, I was actually sitting at Mel's Diner on Sunset. I'll never forget this moment.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  And I was looking at this massive ad for, I think, one of the first Jurassic Park movies. And I was saying, God, this is so powerful. Like, there's no way you can tune out this type of advertising.

• 5:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  It's bigger than life. It's exciting. You know, I wanted to go see the movie because of the wall scape was so exciting. And underneath it, it had a name of a company, Van Wagner. And that was a company that owned that space. So, I kind of called Van Wagner and said, yeah, I have this company and I really want to do something really big in LA. And I saw this ad. You know, anyways, could I rent this side of this building on Sunset? And they said, well, actually, we have a year-long contract with Warner Brothers for that one, so we can't. But we have some other one in town. And I was like, well, how much would it cost if I wanted to rent this one? And he said something, I think he said it was like $85,000 a month.

• 6:07Guy Raz?

  Wait, just pause for a second. You were, of course, pretending like you wanted to.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Pretending, yes.

• 6:11Guy Raz?

  Yes, you just wanted to get the information.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just curious.

• 6:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah. He says $85,000.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  $85,000 a month.

• 6:17Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And so, I'm thinking, hold on. That means that building owner is making over a million dollars a year just by renting the side of their building? And he has two sides because the building faces Sunset two different ways. So, that's $2 million on one building? And I thought, and there's no cost. Like, all you're doing is just painting or putting the vinyl on. There's no like actual billboard structure, steel and all that stuff you have to do. Like, this is incredible. And I just started thinking to myself, like, who would pay $85,000? And like, why? Because there's no way that could make sense on a, you know, cost per thousand or an advertising metric. I mean, there's just not enough people that drive on Sunset, is what I was thinking.

• 6:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  And so, the reason that I basically came up with in my mind was... It had to be ego driven. You know, it had to be that like all these studios in town want their movies on, you know, on the street. They want to show the actor, the starlet, like, I can put you on this building and like, how big a deal is that? And I was living in Nashville at the time and I made a quick assumption that the country music industry had maybe not as big egos, but definitely some big egos in town. And what if I put country music stars on the sides of buildings?

• 7:26Guy Raz?

  Huh. So, so is that, is that what you did?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I went back to Nashville and got after it and, and found out that, you know, there was no one that had ever done this in Nashville. And it was very, you know, challenging to get the city to allow me to do it. Ultimately, I had to convince the city because they had the Highway Beautification Act, which kept people from putting up any new billboards. I think like after year 1984 or something. So what I ultimately came up with after like, I don't know, countless city council meetings and discussions and this and that was I was going to actually make the city more beautiful because I was going to create country music art. And so what I did was I actually would put the album cover of the new Dixie Chicks or

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Shania Twain or whoever was coming out with an album, but there would be no like call to action, no like available at Best Buy for $9.99. It was just the, the art of the album. And by doing that, I convinced the city, I was adding to the landscape of Nashville, which is all about country music.

• 8:28Guy Raz?

  So what would you do? You would call them up and say, hey, I had this idea. All you have to do is give me the side of your building and you get, you're just going to get cash.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  So, yeah, the, the thing you don't ever want to do, especially when you're 22 years old and you're trying to talk to like 50 and 60 year old people who own apartment complexes, you don't want to use the word idea. Because if it's just an idea, then it's like, you're not going to inspire a lot of confidence.

• 8:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Because people can say, I don't like your idea. I don't believe in your idea. But if you say, I have a business and what we do is we lease, you know, the side of your building and we'll guarantee you this amount of money per month and we're going to resell the side of your building because we specialize in selling advertising to the country music industry and you'll make money on an asset that you Never thought you'd ever make money off.

• 9:12Guy Raz?

  Wow. I mean, you were, you were basically hustling them a little bit.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Oh, a hustler. I mean, there's no doubt. Like, I mean, anyone is an entrepreneur, especially if they start really young. I mean, you gotta fake it till you make it.

• 9:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And, you know, and I was, I was never being dishonest. I was just saying like, this is what I'm doing. And they had nothing to lose. Like, by signing a contract with me, then they were basically saying, okay, if you go out and lease this to the Dixie Chicks, let's say, and you can lease it for 10,000 bucks, and you're gonna give me 30% of that just for me allowing you to do this. That's, that's 3,000 extra dollars a month to a place that maybe was charging 500 a month for apartments. So basically, I just created six new apartments that they didn't even have to take care of.

• 9:54Guy Raz?

  So how did you get the first company or who were labeled to agree to let you work with them to put their album on? Like, how did you even have those connections? And how did you make that happen?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  It was just cold calling, you know? I mean, I found out who had albums coming out, did some research. And then I contacted, you know, the marketing person, said, hey, I know you're getting ready to promote, you know, this, this album. And I have a way that you can promote it larger than life, right here in Nashville. It's gonna make a big impact, and you could be one of the first to do it. I mean, those are all things that marketing people love to hear.

• 10:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And, and who was your first client? What was the first piece of art that you put up on the side of a building?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Amy Grant. And we did it on the side of a Ramada Hotel in downtown. There's a picture of me and, and my partner, who was helping me at the time, standing in front of it, you know, on the cover of the Nashville newspaper when it came out, and it was great. And then, once we had that, we had credibility. And then we just started, you know, selling them right and left.

• 10:53Guy Raz?

  What did the label pay for that?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I think we charged for that one about, I wanna say 15,000 a month. So we were probably cash flowing about 10,000 a month, just for that one wall.

• 11:05Guy Raz?

  I mean, do you think you had the confidence to do that because you had done the laundry business in, in college?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I learned a lot. I started the laundry business at 19. So I'd been, you know, kind of hustling and building and having employees and learning about customer service and learning about all these things for about four years. So when I had this idea, I had probably a little bit more confidence. And, you know, I had nothing to lose, you know? It's like, they either were gonna say yes or they weren't, and... I've always been good with, you know, like, just taking chances and, and see what happens.

• 11:34Guy Raz?

  So eventually, you left Nashville. What would you do with the company?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  So I ended up selling the company to Clear Channel, a big media company.

• 11:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  That was really big in outdoor advertising. We ended up having walls in Nashville, and then we expanded to Dallas, too. And once I got to Dallas, I realized that this was like a, a big business game. Like, I'd had some small successes, but it was very quickly that the big companies like the Viacom's, Clear Channels, Van Wagners, they were on to my game, and it was gonna be hard to compete with them.

• 12:07Guy Raz?

  So, so did you walk out of that deal more or less set?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Pretty set, yeah. I mean, look, everything is, is relative, right? But I definitely had a nice cash flow coming in from that, that I wasn't having to, you know, jump to LA and find a job. So when I moved to LA, it was more kind of for fun and exploring what could be next. And I was fascinated with reality television and how it was becoming so popular, because this is like right after like the first Survivor came out.

• 12:35Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And it just fascinated me. I think the competitiveness in me, the adventure, the, you know, like, all that. And my sister and I were thinking about applying for Survivor, and we actually did apply for Survivor.

• 12:47Guy Raz?

  Wait, you, you wanted to be contestants on Survivor?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the casting people of Survivor were also casting in this new show called The Amazing Race. And they called us up and said, hey, I, I don't think we can put you and your sister on Survivor. But they knew about The Amazing Race. And so they kind of talked us into thinking about The Amazing Race. And so we got into the process of being interviewed for that, and we got on. And then the actual show itself was 31 days. So we literally disappeared from our world for 31 days. And we couldn't really tell anyone what we were doing, because it's super confidential. So we just like disappeared.

• 13:26Guy Raz?

  And you went from like country to country, right?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, just all over the world and.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Take a right, take a right, take a right. Go, go, go.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  And then when we were done, the hard part was the show wasn't going to start airing for another, you know, couple of months. And so we couldn't tell anyone what happened and, you know, if we won or if we didn't win or how far we got.

• 13:44Guy Raz?

  I mean, I mean, not to spoil the ending for anyone because it did there in 2002, but you, you barely, I mean, you almost won. You guys almost won a million bucks.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And thankfully we didn't because I think that, that would have been a positive thing at that moment, but probably wouldn't have been good for my further drive from an entrepreneurial standpoint.

• 14:02Guy Raz?

  So you, so the amazing race ends, you've sold your company and what, I mean, at this point you are kind of, you're like 23, 24.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  25 now, yeah.

• 14:11Guy Raz?

  You're 25. You've got this check coming in from Clear Channel. You, I guess presumably you didn't really have to work if you, right? You didn't have to do a whole lot.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, but I was never really about the money. Like, I mean, every business I've ever started has been more of a curiosity and a kind of what if? And so as I just got off the amazing race and was looking around and seeing how popular reality television was becoming and kind of understanding the basic metrics of advertising and what advertisers want and targeting and all that, I just got really excited about this idea of a, of a network of really having your own channel that would be completely focused on reality and reality TV stars.

• 14:53Guy Raz?

  Like a cable TV channel?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Guy Raz?

  But how did you, it's just amazing to me because I remember when I was 25 and I, you know, I was, I worked pretty hard. I was a foreign correspondent. You know, I was trying to like, you know, start my career and stuff. But I mean, I don't know too many 25 year olds who would think, let me start a cable TV channel. Like that's, that's a pretty bold idea to have when you're 25.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, absolutely. But I felt like, you know, I felt like it was possible. Like it just, it seemed like I was in this position. I started to understand by being on the show, the interest that people had. And it was just about finding the right people that knew how to do it and then figure out a way to channel their energy and get the right capital together to do it.

• 15:35Guy Raz?

  So, so did you raise money for it?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  So I did. So I, basically, I tracked down the gentleman who was the founder of the E-channel and somehow got a meeting with him. And then he kind of said, "Look, Blake, it's so competitive now to start a channel. You know, it's probably about close to a million bucks, maybe $750,000 you would need just to get the lights turned on." And I said, "Well, I definitely don't have $750,000 to just kind of bet on this right out the gate." But I do know some people who really understand reality TV and who have some money that maybe they'd invest. And my idea was is to go to all the winners of the reality shows of the last two years and get them to invest.

• 16:18Guy Raz?

  You said you guys should all invest. Let's start a reality TV channel, because you guys won.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you got the money.

• 16:24Guy Raz?

  They all got a million bucks or whatever.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And I got them all to invest. And then I put some of my own money in. And within a couple of months, I raised $750,000 and we launched what was called Reality Central.

• 16:36Guy Raz?

  So you raised this money, and then, and then what do you do? Do you start, like, producing a reality show?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  No, the whole idea was that we would acquire the content for next to nothing, you know, to re-show. And then we would actually do kind of like mystery dinner theater where you had someone come on that was on the show and kind of talk you through what was happening.

• 16:59Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow. That's a great idea.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we thought it was. But, you know, so we really didn't have to spend a lot of money on the content. It was more about trying to get the distribution, which ultimately was the Achilles' heel and why it didn't work. And because we had to go to like Comcast and Time Warner and Charter and these big organizations that are cable networks that host all the channels, and convince them that they should give us a slot of the one of 500 channels. And ultimately, we couldn't convince them of that.

• 17:30Guy Raz?

  You know, it's funny, because I hear you tell this story, and I think of you as somebody who has really tried to make the world a better place. And I don't know if your 24-hour reality channel would have made the world a better place.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  No, it wouldn't have. And I'm so thankful that it didn't work. I would probably want to shoot myself if I was running a reality TV channel.

• 17:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, there's something genius about it and something really horribly sinister about it. So what, so what happened with all the people, including you, who put money into it?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, we all lost our money. It was really hard. I was pretty depressed for a while. I had to let go of everyone. It was challenging.

• 18:10Guy Raz?

  So when that all kind of collapsed,

• 18:14Guy Raz?

  what did you decide to do? Okay, what did you decide to do next?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  So.

• 18:19Guy Raz?

  This is company three that now.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the overarching theme of my entrepreneurial life, which I'm really thankful for, has been like, there's been no connection from one business to another. It's literally been me following kind of my curiosities and the serendipitous conversations and experiences I have. And so the next business was totally that way. I was actually at a barbecue as we were kind of closing down the reality channel. And one of the people that worked for me, they had a son that was 15 years old and he was there. And I was asking him what he was doing that summer, you know, making small talk and waiting for a burger or something. And he told me he was doing driver's ed. And I said, oh, that's gotta be so exciting.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I mean, you learn to drive. And he responded like totally in an uninspiring way. I mean, he just said like, yeah, it's okay. You know, I go to this place and the teacher's boring and I pretty much sleep through the class. And I was like, well, first off, this is not good. Our future drivers in LA are sleeping through their driver's ed class. That doesn't make me feel good about getting on the highway. And the second thing is like, I mean, getting your license should be like this amazing experience for a 15 year old. And there's got to be a better way to engage them.

• 19:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  And I just thought, gosh, like all these teenagers are starting to be online more and more. You know, maybe there's a way to kind of take this driver's ed instruction and learning into the technology that the teenagers are embracing.

• 19:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  So, so I had this idea to kind of start a new type of driver's ed company. We would do all the instruction online. You'd have to pass things in a sequential manner. So you could really make sure that they're learning and they're paying attention. Like it couldn't just like cram for the final test. They would have to, you know, get to stages, almost like a video game. And I recognized that. One of the ways to get them to pay attention and be more excited about the actual learning to drive was to have driver's ed teachers that were going to hold teenagers' attention. And the best way I could figure out to do that was I hired only models and actors and actresses, part-time.

• 20:35Guy Raz?

  So you would basically hire attractive people as the...

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Super attractive people that teenage boys and girls would be totally idolizing.

• 20:45Guy Raz?

  Oh, my God.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  And I knew that would spread fast on the internet. And there's a lot of people in LA that are, you know, that need part-time work, need flexible schedules between auditions, you know, trying to make it. And I was really lucky. I found some guys that were already in the business of online traffic school and driver's ed. And so they kind of really knew the business. And we ended up being partners. And I was a 33% partner in the new company that we formed together with these two other guys.

• 21:10Guy Raz?

  How did you get the word out about it?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  You know, we did, once again, we went back to my old flyers, you know, I love the old flyers. So flyers at high schools, you know, lots of that, lots of targeting on MySpace. But it grew really quickly.

• 21:26Guy Raz?

  Just to clarify to listeners, we are going to get to the good that you did in the world. We will get to that. We will get to that. So, all right, so you've got this fourth business, the driver's ed business, that is going really well. And, I mean, could you have just continued to do this car thing forever and ever? Or, I mean, did you think that that was going to be the rest of your life?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  You know, I never think, I mean, I never thought like one business was going to be the rest of my life, probably until Tom's.

• 22:01Guy Raz?

  Blake Mycoskie, when we come back, how a random conversation in a wine bar in South America led Blake to Tom's and his biggest business yet. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This, from NPR.

• 22:39Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2006, and Blake's driver's ed business has taken off. He's making good money, he's living a great life, but he was feeling a little bored, a little restless. So he decided to take a break and do something a little unusual. He thought, why don't I learn how to play polo in Argentina?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  And it was actually after about being down there for about three weeks when I met serendipitously a few women that were in a wine bar that were talking in English, which was nice because most everyone was speaking Spanish and I didn't understand most of what they were saying. And when I asked about what they were doing, they explained they were doing something they characterized as a shoe drive. And what that meant was they were going around collecting slightly used shoes from wealthy families in Buenos Aires to take to children who did not have shoes and couldn't afford shoes that needed them to go to school. And I was just really taken by their passion for this project and the fact that there were kids just outside of Buenos Aires that didn't have shoes because that was something

• 23:48Speaker 01

  kind of new to me. And I asked enough questions to get interested, and they offered me to come with them and help distribute the shoes. And I said, sure.

• 23:57Guy Raz?

  They said, listen, you want to just check it out with us, like in the next couple of days?

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were going like a week later, and I was going to be down there still. And so, yeah.

• 24:06Guy Raz?

  So what happened when you got down there?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  The experience was an amazing one. I mean, I didn't have really any experience up to this point about volunteering or being in a place of poverty. But I saw these kids really light up when they got these shoes. And these weren't even new shoes. These were used shoes, but the kids were acting like it was Christmas Day, and their parents were excited, and there was joy. And after we put the shoes on the kids, we played with them, we jumped rope, we played soccer, we did all these things. And it was just a great day. And so I went back that evening and I was talking to my polo teacher, his name's Alejo, about the experience and telling him what a great day I had and how satisfying it was. And I was going on and on, just like when you're gushing with enthusiasm.

• 24:53Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  And then he asked me a question that I really wasn't prepared for. He said, Blake, this is amazing what you've done and I commend you in doing this in my country and I know what area you were in today and that's a very challenging area for the families. And he said, but what happens when the kids grow out of their shoes or when they wear out of them? If it's their only pair, they're going to wear out of them. And I said, gosh, I don't know. And his question kind of haunted me, to be honest, because all of a sudden I thought, gosh, did we actually do something good or did we just further propagate a problem that they're going to have down the road? And I remember that night, like actually having a little trouble sleeping and kind of wrestling with this question he asked. So I woke up the next morning and one of the things I've done since I was like 15

• 25:38Speaker 01

  years old is I write in my journal almost every morning. And I was having a cup of coffee and writing in my journal and kind of thinking about this question. And ultimately I got to this idea of like, okay, well, if I really want to help these kids, which I really did, I really connected to this group, maybe I go and get all my friends to donate shoes a couple of times a year and we bring them down. And I thought, well, that's, once again, dependent on other people's donations and what if they don't do it? And that doesn't seem like a very sustainable way to give these kids shoes. And then that led to, well, what if there was a business? Instead of a charity and donations, what if I actually started a shoe business? And every time I sold a pair of shoes, I would give a pair away.

• 26:21Guy Raz?

  What kind of shoes did you have in mind at that point?

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Well, at the same time, I'd been in Argentina for about a month and I'd noticed that a lot of the polo players and even some of their girlfriends were wearing these shoes called the Albrigada. And it was kind of like an espadrille type canvas shoe that was very different than anything I'd ever seen in the US. And it just like kind of magically kind of came together with, gosh, what if I sold these shoes that everyone down here is wearing to people who've never seen them and come back here and give away shoes to kids who need them?

• 26:53Guy Raz?

  So what did you, how did you even get started?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  So we just started meeting with people in town that made these shoes. And asking them like, hey, could you change this? Could you change that? They all thought it was crazy because what they all, and what the country in Argentina would ever want to appreciate about the shoe is they were really inexpensive and they were kind of disposable and they were not something that put too much investment in so people could buy them every month or two or a couple of months as they kind of needed a new pair. And so they thought some of our changes was going to make the shoe way too expensive, but they didn't really understand that we had a market that would pay because people were paying 40 bucks for a pair of vans. If I could make something that had the same kind of longevity, then they would pay 40 bucks for this.

• 27:37Guy Raz?

  And these were just like small-time artisanal shoemakers? Or were these?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Guy Raz?

  And they were just...

• 27:43Speaker 01

  People making them in their garages or making them in different, you know, small little barns and factories and things. So we got some ideas and they prototyped them really rapidly because they were small little organizations. And we made a couple hundred pairs of like prototypes. And the name Toms was birthed or created down there too because when I told Alejo what I wanted to do, I said, I think if we sell a pair of shoes today, we'll give away a pair of shoes tomorrow and we'll call them Tomorrow Shoes. And our slogan will be Shoes for a Better Tomorrow. So it was all around this word tomorrow. And when it came time to put a tag on the shoe, we couldn't fit the word Tomorrows

• 28:28Speaker 01

  onto the tag because the tag was really small in the heel. So we shortened the word Tomorrows to Toms and that's how the word Toms came.

• 28:38Guy Raz?

  And so you get back to the US. How many pairs of shoes did you bring back?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  About 250 pairs.

• 28:43Guy Raz?

  And what was your idea to just see if this would work? Because you could have come back to the US and people would have said... I'm not really sure about these. Or you could have sold them all and then, and then what?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was definitely, I mean, I try to stress this to people. I mean, of all the businesses that I started, this was the least business of the businesses. And that's the irony of all of it. It was like, okay, there's 250 kids in this village. I want to come back by Christmas and give them all a new pair of shoes. So I'm going to go sell these shoes and I'm going to come back and then we'll figure out what we're going to do. Like, it was not a business. It was clearly like, this is a way for me to kind of stay connected to this amazing feeling I had of helping these kids and an excuse to come back to Argentina, which I had totally fallen in love with. And, and that was it. And I would still do the driver's ed business. I'd still kind of have my normal life as an entrepreneur. But this would kind of be my side project and my kind of own personal, you know, fun philanthropic experiment.

• 29:42Guy Raz?

  And so when you came back to, to LA, uh, how did you sell the shoes? What did you do?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  So, I mean, first I, I kind of got some friends and my sister and girlfriends and stuff to kind of buy them. And they luckily they liked them and they thought they were cool and they were different and they liked the style. And they loved the idea that they were helping someone.

• 30:03Guy Raz?

  And what did you charge for?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Uh, the originally price was, I think, 37 bucks. And so I sold a few pairs that way. And then I got some people, local people in LA that worked in PR that I had met through friends of friends to help me try to get the story out there because it was a really interesting story. And at the same time, they knew some like kind of cool trendy kind of fashion stores that like to carry stuff that no one else has. And this was clearly that. And so my first account was a store in LA called American Rag. I went in there with a, literally a backpack full of these shoes, some pictures of the kids that we had helped in Argentina. And, uh, you know, the girl's name is Courtney. She was a shoe buyer and I shared her the shoes and she really liked them.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  And then I told her the story and then she just loved it. And she was like, this is totally unique. This is totally us. She asked me how many pairs I had to sell. And I said, well, look, I started 250, I've sold about 30 pairs. So I have 220, I have a little website that's selling them as well. And so she took, I think, like 85 pairs and put a little display in the window at American Rag. And that was our, that was our first big account. But one of the funniest and most amazing parts of the story and really kind of a turning point in all of it was this woman Booth Moore, who was at the time kind of the leading fashion writer for the LA Times. She was in the store, American Rag, and heard about the story. And she asked for my information and she contacted me and she interviewed me.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  So I did interview her, told her the story, emailed her a picture of one of the shoes. And the next Sunday, it was like on the cover of the calendar section of the LA Times. And that day, we sold 2,200 pairs on the website.

• 31:46Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  But I only had like 80 pairs in my apartment.

• 31:49Guy Raz?

  In your apartment? You had 80 boxes or you had like 80 stacks of shoes? 2,200 pairs? What did you do?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of freaked out.

• 31:57Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  I also did what I think a lot of entrepreneurs do in a time of dire need. I started putting as many ads for interns on Craigslist as I could. And I got this like small army of interns to help basically be customer service to email and call all these people and let them know that there was no chance that they were going to get their shoes in the four days or five days of the website. Promised it was going to be more like, you know, maybe a couple of months or, you know, longer because I had to go back and make them in Argentina.

• 32:27Guy Raz?

  You literally had to hop on a plane and go back?

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like three days later, after I got the interns set up with like laptops and phones in my apartment, I said, okay, I'm going back to make these shoes. And I took the article because I knew they would never believe me. And I literally flew to Buenos Aires, took a taxi to this guy's house, Juan Torres, who was making the shoes in his garage for us at the time, had Alejo meet me there. And I walked in and with the little Spanish eye I knew, I said something like muchos zapatos rapido. And yeah, and we just got cranking and Juan called some friends over and other people who knew how to make the shoes. And we got our own little kind of small little factory going in this little barn.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Down there. And after a couple of weeks, we got to where we could make about 900 pairs a week out of this little operation.

• 33:19Guy Raz?

  So it took you, what, a month?

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Three, four weeks.

• 33:21Guy Raz?

  Three, four weeks to make 2,200 pairs. So you have 2,200 pairs of shoes being made in Argentina. And then, did you, did you ship them back? Did you like stuff them in suitcases? Like, how did you bring them back?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. We literally, I mean, it was like, we put them in like, big boxes and they flew back with me on American Airlines in the cargo area of the airplane.

• 33:43Guy Raz?

  So you walk out of LAX with giant boxes of shoes. You race back to your apartment in Venice? Is that right?

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Met up with the interns and we started, you know.

• 33:54Guy Raz?

  Shipping them out?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Shipping boxes.

• 33:56Guy Raz?

  Like, so, did you have boxes made? And did it look professional? Or was it just like, just the shoes in a, in like, a padded envelope?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically. And so we got the UPS guy to actually come to our apartment and pick up every day, which was great. So we didn't have to like, take them all the way to the, to the place. And so, so yeah, so we were running, shipping the stuff out of the apartment every day. And, and then because of that, we're getting more orders online. And we started, you know, talking to some more stores.

• 34:23Guy Raz?

  You guys were, I mean, you were like, on a roll already at this point, right?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the next big break was, we got a call from Vogue magazine. And, and that funny thing about that was, I had just seen the movie, The Devil Wears Prada.

• 34:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  And so, so I see Meryl Streep, you know, playing Anna Wintor.

• 34:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  And I see how challenging she is, Dan Hathaway's character. And when I got a call from Vogue to come to New York to meet with them, I was horrified.

• 34:51Guy Raz?

  They wanted you to come there to meet with them?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:54Guy Raz?

  Why?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, they wanted to interview me. And they, they had read the LA Times article. And so, so yeah, I went and they interviewed me. And then later, they did a photo shoot in Venice. And next thing you know, we were in Vogue. And when we were in Vogue, it just all kind of exploded.

• 35:08Guy Raz?

  Exploded.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Everyone, the crazy thing is that people just assumed like, we were like, a real company when we were in Vogue. And so, we were getting calls from like, stores all over the country, even.

• 35:18Guy Raz?

  And when did like, celebrities start to, to, to catch on?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  That was also the benefit, I think, of being in LA and that it was just such a radical idea, like no fashion company or shoe company had ever like given something away every time they sold it. And I think that naturally appealed to certain celebrities and, and they also like, you know, wearing things that other people don't have and like it's new. And so, so we just started like without any work on our own, we just started seeing celebrities wearing these shoes and they started getting photographed by the paparazzi and then it started showing up in things like People Magazine and Us Weekly and OK.

• 35:53Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  But the craziest moment for me was when I saw a stranger actually wearing the shoes. That was about three or four months later, I was actually in New York trying to sign up some new stores. This was right before Vogue came out. I was a little discouraged and I was going to the airport to fly back to LA and I actually wasn't wearing my shoes. I was wearing a pair of running shoes. Anyways, I'm at American Airlines, I'm checking in using the kiosk and the girl next to me, she's probably mid 30s, she's wearing a red pair of Toms. And at this point, like the only people I've ever seen wearing our shoes are like my, you know, my parents, my friends, my interns, maybe my neighbor, you know? And I was so excited, you know, like here's like a total random person wearing a pair of our shoes.

• 36:39Guy Raz?

  So of course you had to talk to her.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I said, as we were doing the check-in, I said, excuse me, I said, I couldn't help but notice these shoes you're wearing. They're really cool. What are they? And she like looked at me and she goes, oh, they're Toms, Tom's shoes. This is like the most amazing company in the world. I'm like, oh, really? Tell me about it. She's like, when I bought this pair of shoes, they gave a pair to a child in Argentina. And I'm like, I have to tell her who I am, right? And so I said, well, actually, you know, I'm actually Blake. I started Toms. And she's like dead silent, you know, like, like, like she's just like can't believe it. And then she looks at me, she goes, why did you cut your hair?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And that was her main question. And the funny thing was, why she knew I got my hair, why she knew I lived on a boat, all this stuff was because of, at this point now, you know, we're on Facebook and we're promoting on YouTube. And she had not just been a customer, she'd gone online and like, learned everything she possibly could about the business. And it just really started to kind of like, in my mind, from an entrepreneur and mathematical standpoint, be like, whoa, this could get big.

• 37:48Guy Raz?

  It's just unbelievable. I mean, so everyone who bought a pair of TOMS knew, more or less knew that when they were buying a pair, you guys would give a pair to a child in need.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, in the early days, I think that's the primary driver of why people bought TOMS. The shoes were frankly, not that good a quality. They didn't last as long as we had hoped they would. I mean, you know, they were different, they were stylish, et cetera. But the giving was a huge, huge driver in the early days.

• 38:15Guy Raz?

  You know, I mean, I'm like a total, I'm like, three years behind everybody else. And I think the first time I heard about TOMS was in 2009, this commercial that I saw.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:25Guy Raz?

  On TV. What was that about? What happened?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  So I was doing a lot of media about TOMS. And so I think I was doing a CNN interview. And the woman asked me, she said, how in the world do you run your business? Because I'd just gotten back from Ethiopia on a giving trip. And she's like, Juan, you were in Ethiopia last week, you were in, you know, Argentina three weeks before that, and you have this fast growing business. Like, how are you running this company and being in all these places where you're giving out these shoes? And I held up my BlackBerry at the time, which I had, and I said, this is the key. I said, I can literally approve designs, take orders, you know, do everything from this, and I can do it from Ethiopia. And someone who worked

• 39:08Speaker 01

  at BB DNO ad agency, who AT&T was our client, saw that interview. And they thought, man, if this guy uses AT&T, this is the best commercial we could ever do. Right? And thankfully, I did use AT&T. So they called me up and they said, okay, well, we want to talk to you about an idea we have for a commercial.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  And I'm the chief shoe giver at TOMS Shoes.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  They went with us on a real giving trip in Uruguay.

• 39:33Guy Raz?

  When you went and handed out shoes to kids?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  When we handed out shoes, they filmed us in our office.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  I need a network with great coverage because for every pair of shoes that we sell,

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Everything was just totally real, totally legit, and they made it into a very different type of commercial for AT&T, but it just hit a nerve with people.

• 39:53Guy Raz?

  That was a turning point. That turned TOMS from like, kind of this fashion niche thing to a major shoe company.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that was a turning point because now, I mean, millions and millions of Americans at least were seeing our story multiple times throughout the week on different shows and commercials, and that was just driving the business in an incredible way.

• 40:14Guy Raz?

  And by this point, had you, I mean, I'm assuming you hired a team to help you run this growing business, right? Because you were probably doing, like, what kind of revenue were you doing every year?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  At that point, we were, I mean, we did, the first year in business, I want to say we did about $300,000. In the second year, we did about $3 million. And the third year, we did like $15 million. And the fourth year, we went to like $60 million.

• 40:46Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I mean, we went from basically from zero to $450 million in sales on an annual basis in like seven years. You know, I think we became the fastest growing shoe company in the world.

• 40:59Guy Raz?

  That's insane.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was insane.

• 41:03Guy Raz?

  What did you find to be the hardest thing about growing so quickly, you know, after that commercial and after you just started like going gangbusters? I mean, you had this-

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Making the shoes, for sure.

• 41:15Guy Raz?

  Making them?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even, I mean, even until just, I would say, recently is the last two years, making the shoes has always been the hardest part for us because none of us were shoemakers. None of us were, you know, production people. I mean, it was all just different people I met along the journey that had a passion for, you know, for helping kids and doing something disruptive and having fun. And like, and so the discipline of being great, making shoes has always been something that we've struggled with. And we've really just recently, in the last couple of years, gotten better at.

• 41:46Guy Raz?

  But like, I'm wondering about something that happened around 2011, 2012, because you decided to just take a step back from the whole company and just like drop off the map. So why?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Well, the business was becoming pretty corporate, pretty bureaucratic. We had a leadership team that we had built that was maybe not running it the same kind of way that we used to and same passion. And I didn't feel as connected to the mission of TOMS. And I was questioning, like, is this something I want to do the rest of my life? Or like my other entrepreneur gigs, is it time to go and do something different? And so I just felt the best thing for me to do, which I've always found, is when I'm struggling, is just to kind of get away and kind of be alone and take some time. And I did that.

• 42:35Guy Raz?

  What did you do? Did you just go take a hike?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  No, I went back to Austin, Texas, where I originally love Austin. And I'd just gotten married. And so my wife and I decided to move to Austin for a year.

• 42:46Guy Raz?

  I mean, if the company became super corporate and you were disillusioned, what happened to make you want to return to it?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Ultimately, I realized there was more to be done. We had bigger ambitions than what we had accomplished before. I felt like we could use our model to help more people with more products. I had enough new things to kind of get my energy again. It was just time for me to come back. And it was really my wife, actually. She recognized that I was kind of getting into a depressed state in Austin. And I just realized when I was gone that I loved it. I missed it. I missed the people. I missed being in it, missed the challenges.

• 43:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And I've seen you refer to TOMS as a movement rather than a business. Obviously, you know there are some people who are cynical about that. And then they say, oh, that's just Blake. He's just using that as a way to generate more interest in his business. But is that how you see it? A movement rather than a business?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  You know, I think that the movement part, I really felt that when our customers are engaged in the effect that they're having with their business. And that maybe buying a pair of TOMS is the first step, or maybe it's the 10th step in their desire to be more conscious consumers and humans. And so to me, that is more of a movement of a way of thinking than it is a business transaction.

• 44:14Guy Raz?

  Blake, you've read and know about, over the years, people have said, look,

• 44:22Guy Raz?

  This might sound like a great business model, but actually TOMS is disrupting markets in these countries and they're actually not helping alleviate poverty and, you know, they're actually creating other problems. I mean, surely some of those criticisms are are there's some merit to them, right?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, the first and kind of most prevalent criticism has been like, okay, if TOMS really want to make a difference in the communities, they would not just focus on aid, they would focus on job creation. And that criticism was really difficult to hear at first because frankly, I just didn't know how to address it. Like, I agreed with it. You know, yes, in theory, it would be amazing to create a bunch of jobs in Kenya, but I mean, how in the world am I going to figure that out, like with everything else going on? But ultimately, back in 2000, I think it was 12, actually, we made a pledge to manufacture as many shoes as we could in the countries that we give in. And today,

• 45:23Speaker 01

  we're manufacturing over 40% of our giving shoes in countries like Kenya, Ethiopia, India, you know, lots of different places where we're also giving. So-

• 45:35Guy Raz?

  Was that was that a direct response to your critics or sort of like saying, you know what, you're right?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  It was. It was. And it was it was a humbling experience and one where we had to express some vulnerability and say, okay, we don't know how to do this. We're going to try it. And we started small. We've scaled as we've gone. And it's actually been, you know, now it's something that we pride ourselves in as part of our business.

• 45:56Guy Raz?

  I mean, the idea of the buy one and then we'll give one to somebody in need, really, you know, you guys are you are credited with really starting this model. You probably weren't the first. There were probably other companies out there doing this. But, you know, you did this on a very big scale. And since then, lots and lots and lots of companies have followed that model, Warby Parker and others.

• 46:19Guy Raz?

  And it's been good for business. I mean, that model's actually been really, really good.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think of all the things we're most proud of at TOMS is like the legacy that we've created in this model has become not just a relevant model of TOMS, but with lots of companies around the world. And it's encouraged even companies beyond the one for one model to incorporate giving more into their actual business model and not just a check that they write at the end of the year, you know, to a nonprofit.

• 46:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think about like the arc of your career, right? I mean, the laundry business for college students and the outdoor advertising company and the reality TV channel and then the, the driver's ed school. I mean, very different from what you did with TOMS, right? Like very, very different. But do you think that you could have done TOMS without, without doing all those previous companies?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I don't think TOMS would be where it is today if I hadn't had those experiences. The thinking behind TOMS was always there, but it was always something that was more in an order of make money first, help others second, because that's how every other business person I'd ever known had done it. You know, I never had read about anyone that was helping people as they were building the business. And I think that TOMS is, is like my soulmate of business. Like, I mean, it's like, I get to be creative. I get to find meaning in that. You know, I recognize that the amount of wealth that now my wife and I were responsible for was far more than we would ever even think about spending in our lifetime. And

• 47:56Speaker 01

  so we made a real conscious decision to take half of it and, and commit it to investing in social entrepreneurs. So that's a big part of my life now is actually investing in the next generation as a way to solve problems that, that we are faced with. And so that's been a huge blessing in all of this as well.

• 48:16Guy Raz?

  Blake Mycoskie, founder of TOMS Shoes. By the way, TOMS has given away more than 70 million shoes in 70 countries around the world. Back in 2014, Blake sold half of the company to a private equity group. Up until then, TOMS had never had a single investor. Do people call you Tom?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 48:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah. What do you respond?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  And I answer to it.

• 48:39Guy Raz?

  You say, "Yeah." They'll say, "Hey, Tom."

• 48:40Speaker 01

  People say, "Hey, Tom," at the airport. I turn around just as if they said, "Hey, Blake," because I know they're talking to me.

• 49:01Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for How You Built That. And today, we're updating a story from 2017 about Gamer's Gift. It's a nonprofit cofounded by Dylan Hill when he was a student at UC Davis.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, so our biggest thing right now is bringing virtual reality, the headsets, to children's hospitals, assisted living facilities, and people with disabilities.

• 49:25Guy Raz?

  And this idea goes all the way back to the fifth grade, when Dylan's best friend, Chris, was diagnosed with cancer and had to spend months in the hospital.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  I would visit him every single day, and what I saw was my friend was no longer the kid that I knew. And my solution was to bring the video games, because I knew that those would make him smile.

• 49:46Guy Raz?

  Chris eventually did get better, and he and Dylan stayed friends.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  And that experience always stuck with me. And I remember looking back on it as, wow, those video games really helped us.

• 49:57Guy Raz?

  So anyway, fast forward to senior year in high school, and Dylan is now doing volunteer work in his spare time. But he's not all that happy with it.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  I volunteered at a food shelter, and instead of spending time with the homeless, I was in the back packing bags. And obviously, all these things, they help, but it just wasn't rewarding.

• 50:16Guy Raz?

  And Dylan kept thinking about the video games. Maybe there was some way he could use them to help people. So one day, he and Chris We're doing a little random Googling. And Dylan said, hey, I wonder what it would take to start our own charity.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  And we Googled how to start a nonprofit. And we saw, wow, this is simplified into six steps. First, make an LLC. And then get in touch with the franchise tax board.

• 50:42Guy Raz?

  Actually, some of this stuff does not sound so simple. But eventually Dylan got his mom to guarantee a bank account for their nonprofit. And they became a 501(c)(3).

• 50:53Speaker 03

  I think we've probably Googled every single line on the tax paperwork because we had no idea what a lot of it meant. But, I mean, we have the internet, you know? We can figure out anything.

• 51:02Guy Raz?

  And so after they got it sorted out, Dylan and Chris started to raise money to buy video games and VR headsets. First, they sold baked goods door to door. Then they got some donations through an online service. Then they were starting to visit hospitals and other places in California, sharing VR and games with children and adults.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  So for example, there was this man Dominic who's living with cerebral palsy. And he's always wanted to drive a race car. Now, he's only able to communicate by moving his head up or down. But we can put a headset on him and we can push his wheelchair around his living room and we can emulate him driving a Formula One race car.

• 51:43Guy Raz?

  That's Dylan Hill, who co-founded Gamersgift along with his friend Chris Spettencourt. Now, a lot has happened since we first brought you that story. Chris's leukemia returned in October of 2017. And his prognosis was not good. So Chris came up with a bucket list, things he wanted to do before he died. And Dylan wanted to help. On that list, beat a world record. Chris and Dylan wanted to register the most bone marrow donors in one day. The world record was 2,976. So Chris and Dylan launched a social media campaign and they got 3,715 people to register.

• 52:25Guy Raz?

  And they got something else, something they didn't really expect. A match for Chris. Two months later, Chris had a bone marrow transplant. And today, he's cancer-free.

• 52:38Guy Raz?

  If you want to find out more about Gamers Gift, check out our Facebook page. And to hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, howibuiltthis.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. And thanks so much for listening to our show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write us at [email protected]. You can also tweet us. It's at How I Built This. Our show was produced this week by Rund Abdelfatah, with original music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Mia Ventcat, J.C. Howard, Noor Kudsi, Niva Grant, Melissa Gray, Sanaz Meshkhanpour, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Candace Lim.

• 53:21Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.